[auralpoison]

Thread killah!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7364475.stm

[auralpoison]

This, too. It's a little corny, but . . .

http://www.marieclaire.com/life/sex/advice...n-star?src=digg

[auralpoison]

I thought this was interesting.

http://www.offourbacks.org/fleshnbones.html

This one, too.

http://www.xbiz.com/news/92236

ETA: What is sexy about a woman taking a milk enema & shooting it out of her ass & into another woman's face? Seriously. Milk.

[faerietails2]

Great article courtesy of alternet.

[sexysandee]

Porn makes me feel all warm and fuzzy

[knorl05]

bumpity bump

[nickclick]

Alternet posted an article called "Is Pornography Really Harmful?" It's lonnnnnnng, but interesting.

i like that the author of the book referenced blames mainstream porn on patriarchy (all the other terms can be filed under 'patriarchy,' IMO.)

"The logic of domination and subordination that is central to patriarchy, hyperpatriotic nationalism, white supremacy and a predatory corporate capitalism."

and i like the 2nd writer's quote:

"the area where porn concerns me most deeply -- its potential to encourage the dehumanizing of women in consensual, or quasi-consensual, sexual encounters."

[faerietails2]

Alternet posted an article called "Is Pornography Really Harmful?" It's lonnnnnnng, but interesting.

[greenbean]

Wow! O magazine's recent issue promotes porn, and hires Violet Blue to recommend some! I've been looking for an article on conservative backlash but haven't found anything so far...
http://www.comstockfilms.com/news.html
Gotta say I'm a bit surprised!

[ohsweetie]

As far as making money inherently being a feminist act: *I* think its more than that, but to some women (like my mom) feminism isn't about saving all womenkind, but trying to raise a level above for herself and her children, and not relying on a man to do it.

i love the entirety of this statement but want to focus on the "as far as making money inherently being a feminist act" idea without perhaps heading into some economic discussion, as we are here to talk about pornography!!

so, the short thing that i want to say about these things above is that while CREATING access to and UTILIZING one's access to the opportunity to make money IS a feminist act, the simple act of making money is not feminist. when considering the sex industry, simply selling one's body to make money is not feminism nor feminist engagement with the sex industry. i think that a feminist engagement with the sex industry would involve someone entering into the industry (or perhaps utilizing aspects of it, ie. porn) KNOWING about market economies, the lack of space for women in market economies (and the fact that women have historically been relegated to roles lower than men in the sex industry), and the history of the subjection of the feminine body AND THEN using the outcome to further personal and hopefully feminist goals (ie. taking pictures of oneself and selling them on the internet to buy blow would not be a feminist activity, because all one is doing is further reaffirming domination and hegemony), such as putting oneself through school, taking care of one's children, buying sustainable items and local products, etc.

i'm a big proponent of feminist engagement with the sex industry and agree that there is often blurriness and conflation when we begin to simply consider "women's engagement". those who do not identify as women could also use the sex industry to further feminist means.

i guess i just want to end by saying that i'm on a pornography/sexuality + feminism kick: i'm taking gender studies at UNBC and we're doing a pornography course this coming september and i'm excited to see what it'll look like).

xoxo

[greenbean]

So then sweatshops are "feminist," because they allow women in poverty-stricken countries to earn income?

I don't think that is the arguement of the author, and I'm certainly not making the arguement. I just think that if a stripper is honestly happy with what that job has afforded her then its no skin off my back. I'm more concerned with making sure women have access to enough affordable education so they don't feel like they have to sell their bodies to get ahead.

As far as making money inherently being a feminist act: *I* think its more than that, but to some women (like my mom) feminism isn't about saving all womenkind, but trying to raise a level above for herself and her children, and not relying on a man to do it.

Yes, if we do base feminism gains on how much money we make, we still have a ways to go. Somehow we need to fix things where traditional "women's jobs" are valued more,..but I'm not sure how we acheive that exactly. A greater society would pay teachers and nurses more than strippers get paid, but I don't know how we can devalue nude entertainment to the point where it was no longer "easy money". The disapointing trend is to just shame women out of stripping by either religious morals or feminist obligations to society. Its not the way I'd like to go.

[erinjane]

I didn't really get that tone from the article. I understand that what she was saying is that she's empowered by the fact that she was making money, not empowered because she felt making money/stripping was feminist. There's a woman who writes a blog (that I can't find the link for right now) and she models nude. Every post she makes has one of her nude shots included, and she's made some really great posts on how she doesn't find nude modelling empowering a feminist way, but it is something she enjoys doing. If I can dig up the post I'll link to it.

[girlbomb]

So then sweatshops are "feminist," because they allow women in poverty-stricken countries to earn income? Just trying to follow this line of argument. I didn't think the author of the article was saying that sex work is an inherently feminist act, just that it was more empowering to have money than to starve. Which begs the question, is all paid labor "feminist," if it allows a woman to make an income?

The author acknowledges that she's participating in a sexist system in order to support herself. Nobody's condemning her for doing what she has to or wants to do in order to eat food and live indoors. But if supporting yourself by any means necessary is a "feminist" act, then every single woman who earns a paycheck is a feminist -- and I know quite a few wage-earning women who would reject that title. Maybe earning money in and of itself IS still a feminist act, in which case, we're further behind men than I thought.

If one's definition of a "feminist" act is "anything that a woman chooses to do," then by that definition, voluntary sex work is feminist. If one's definition of a "feminist" act has to do with acknowledging and challenging sexism, then I don't think voluntary sex work automatically qualifies. It might, depending on the circumstances, but not automatically.

[dj-bizmonkey]

**delurks**

has anyone seen the louis theroux series on either porn or the brothel in nevada? they're worth checking out, and i'd be interested to see what y'all's reactions were (do i sound like a 'neck or what?!) i don't have a link to the episodes themselves, but i watched them on this website:
http://www.tv-links.co.uk/show.do/1/1376

**and the dj goes back into a thread where she might have the foggiest about what to say**

p.s. i enjoyed the article as well

[nickclick]

erinjane, yes thanks. and greenb, thanks for sharing too. your mom's cool! my parents both grew up working-class, and worked hard to move up and always valued education. i'm lucky to have grown up white, middle class, never hungry, and always knowing i'd be going to college. so yes, my perspective is skewed to think nobody needs to make political choices about work. but i'm not so sheltered to not know that's not always the case.

in an ideal world, where women are paid fairly for all work, and work that's done predominately by women would be paid equally well as men's work, and where a woman's skills would have just as much monetary worth (if not more) as her body, then i could more easily argue that sex work is unfeminist. but facts as they are, sex and money buy the most power. so when a woman doesn't have money, sometimes sex buys her autonomy. and i guess women's autonomy is what we value the most as feminists.

[greenbean]

Just poppin to say that I liked the article Erinjane. I particularly find statements like these worth talking about: "There is nothing more objectifying than poverty." and "I find it interesting that the very people who complain about the objectification of women's bodies are the ones who have little to say about the objectification of poor people's bodies, of all genders." I'm always intrigued by the discussion about money and feminism, and is wanting to make money at any cost unfeminist.

Since my mom grew-up poor and Mexican, yet I grew-up half-white and middle class, I feel like I a unique perspective. Throughout the years I've always asked her variants of the question, "do you feel more disenfranchised being born a woman or being born brown?" and everytime she has always answered Mexican. Her dad and brothers were in construction, as are some of my male cousins, and I tell ya, I would rather be a stripper. Luckily I don't have to resort to either because my mom's mission in life was to make enough money to get out of the barrio (she did it by waiting tables non-stop) and then make enough to put me through college.

She considers herself a feminist but her brand of feminism would closer to the author's mentality, that money is power and women with power is feminist. In fact, when I was having woes about taking my current job, for fear that it wasn't feminist, she said to me, "It would be nice if all women were bonded by sisterhood and were always looking out for each other. But this is reality, and you've got to survive."

Not that she would want me to strip or do porn, but thats cuz I'm her daughter. She doesnt give two shits if anyone else want to make their living that way.

[girlbomb]

Well, my early exposure to pornography taught me a lot more about sexual politics than I ever learned from a teacher or parent. It was obvious to me that porn told the truth about sex that adults tried to gloss over in front of kids -- it was adult currency. And I think it still has a tremendous influence on young people. Why do so many eleven-year-olds know what a donkey punch is? And, while we're on the topic, what does punching a woman in the face during orgasm have to do with sex?

[skinwithoutscars]

hey, i disappeared for a couple of days.

when it comes to teaching our kids about sex, porn is way down my list of things we need to change about the culture - like, number 37 or so. numbers 1-36 on the list have to do with a complete overhaul of how we talk about sex (as a power trip), what we accept as part of the discourse about sex (like, men who just don't wanna wear condoms - why is that even an acceptable question? use condoms, dude!), what are considered acceptable sexual behaviors (uh, date rape) . . . and while these things may swirl around in the same stewpot with porn, i hesitate to blame porn for their existence. i think the simple ways men and women interact - which grow out of a power differential - that a kid sees every single day has a much bigger impact on how the kid will view sex than a couple of forbidden glimpses of porn.

[erinjane]

Here's an interesting article I came across via feministing.

http://www.alternet.org/sex/51408/

[nickclick]

knorl, i certainly agree. kids get mixed messages. remember the hoopla over janet jackson's nipple at the superbowl? parents noticed that, but didn't see that their whole song and performance was sexual and demeaning to women. so it's okay to sing about ripping off women's clothes, but we can't actually see women's bodies?