[knorl05]

let's just throw some definitions around for fun.

empowerment: Empowerment refers to increasing the political, social or economic strength of individuals. It often involves the empowered developing confidence in their own capacities.

feminism: Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political, and economic inequality between men and women..

pornography: Pornography is the representation of the human body or sexual activity with the goal of sexual arousal. It is similar to, but distinct from, "erotica", [which] is used to imply artistic quality, sensuousness, or implied sexuality, whereas "pornography" tends to signify explicit sexual acts.

sex worker: A sex worker is a person who earns money by providing sexual services.

from wikipedia.org

[lucizoe]

I think a big issue is that no one's choices are made in a vacuum. We are all influenced by our experiences and our environment, so while many women may choose to enter sex work because it's simply what they want to do, it is still difficult for me to see it as a choice 100% free from the influence of patriarchal culture. After all, the bread and butter is in playing out (mostly) heteronormative fantasies of love and sex. I think (like katiebelle said) the bigger problem occurs when women enter the field because they lack choices or are coerced.

I am so envious of women who feel sexy, truly, and have found a way to express that which not only makes them easy in their minds, but also sends some cash their way. It sounds beyond awesome to me. If I were capable of it (meaning, if my ego could take it), I could easily see myself posing for some pictures some day, but I'm stopped by my own personal "ick" factor. Men in general squick me out, which is something I am working on, but I couldn't stand the idea of strangers masturbating to my image, and projecting all sorts of unknown and potentially violent fantasies onto me. I know that I would not be aware of any of the actions of the strangers who saw the pictures, but I have an overactive imagination and would certainly torment myself about it. Not from any puritan guilt-induced haze, but because I am uncomfortable with it in the same way I am uncomfortable wearing certain items of clothing in public; eliciting what I see as negative attention is not fun to me. And I feel like a bad feminist for that, because shouldn't I feel strong enough to wear what I want?

That said, that is all obviously my own shit, and I DO think there is a certain dialogue within the feminist movement that cock-blocks itself by focusing too much on porn. Porn does not feel like the issue to me; sexual slavery and human trafficking and violence against sex workers in real life is the issue. Porn - in mainstream America, at least - seems to me to be a symptom of a deeply sexually repressed culture which takes things to the extreme. Maybe if it wasn't still so shameful to be sexual, to be naked, to be honest, there would be a smaller market for the sorts of porn that squick many people out. I like the natural porn - the amateur stuff - real couples who are honestly just filming themselves having fun and getting each other off. I don't really like downloading anything online, and there seems to be a smaller market for that sort of porn than for the ultra-fake, ultra-Barbie stuff I think of when the word "porn" is mentioned.

Empowerment is so tricky, isn't it? I'm not even sure what it os to feel empowered. I certainly feel good about myself when I fulfill my responsibilities (that I have voluntarily taken on), proud when I achieve something I've worked hard for, happy when I'm free to be creative...but I never actually feel powerful. Tough, certainly. Maybe that's it. If that feeling comes to other women by engaging in sex work, then that's great.

As for marriage equalling prostitution, I say yikes! I don't know if I believe in marriage for myself, but I don't think that it is always necessarily entered into solely to have access to sex and money. If Mr.Luci and I were to ever stop living (deeply) in sin , I could see health insurance benefits as the driving force of our making things legal, since his job doesn't do the domestic partner benefits, yet. Certainly not to establish exclusive sexual rights, or to legitimize children. He makes far more money than I do, which pays rent and food, while the minor ducats I will receive until I graduate are just extra. But I don't consider myself as selling him sex for a roof over my head. I hope we're not an anomaly in that regard.

Okay, that was rambly, but it took me a while to write it, so y'all have to read it.

[erinjane]

I wouldn't say I see sex stores in the same avenue as sex workers. Especially places like Good Vibrations and Smitten Kitten. (By the way, I got to visit smitten kitten last week while on vacation and it was such a great store...so inviting and the owner was really friendly and helpful and I loved how informed she was and how she explained how toys were unsafe and why she doesn't carry some, but I digress.)

I don't see them as selling sex, necessarily. I guess I jump to the defense of stores like that because I feel like my sexuality could have been pretty oppressed as I was growing up, except I kind of tripped over it and discovered it by myself when I was 13 and took it upon myself to get educated. But my best friends, some of which are older then me are so scared of themselves sometimes. I think even progressive women often still have trouble understanding that sex is not just for the benefit of men. I know that for a long time I had trouble having an orgasm from oral sex because even as a feminist who knows all this I would still think in the back of my head 'he doesn't really want to be doing it' even though I like giving as well.

I feel like the feminist run sex shops are a really good avenue to reclaim sexuality that some people may still feel ashamed about. I wouldn't say they're selling sex...they're selling sex toys, but I don't see it the same way as say...using sex to sell clothes or shoes or perfume. I've never been to a sex toy party but I've heard good things about them. They sound like they have more of an positive atmosphere that I'd be looking for. Other sleazier sex shops however, I have a different opinion of. Mostly because of atmosphere and I know they aren't catering to me. They're usually there for men and I don't feel welcomed or informed walking into the local shops here in my city.

Greenbean, I understand what you mean. I think that goes back to what I said earlier about feminism being about choice, and that doesn't mean being able to pick and choose what choices we think are suitable but supporting the choices that are made whether we agree with them or not. And I know how you felt in school...I tried so hard but I always just barely scraped by with my marks and it always made me uncomfortable around my other friends who were in advanced classes, like I wasn't good enough. I am glad I'm in school now, because I really feel like I've found my niche but I know plenty of people who stayed happy doing whatever they wanted and not going to uni or college. I have a friend who says that she always feels like she's not as smart as me because she's not in uni, but we read the same books, have the same opinions and have wonderful discussions. There's a lot of pressure.

[katiebelle2882]

ok so i guess this thread got started. first off i want to apologize for the last thread (and to you busties, or apologize for taking it off course and getting so heated. i stand by alot of what i said, however, this is clearly a better place to talk about it and i just got so angry and of course the pms didnt help. anyhoo....

i wanted to comment on nohopes definition and just say that i am not sure its accurate. by his definition, even women who get promoted bc of their looks (which sucks and isnt fair but we all know it happens) makes her a sex worker. i dont think that fair seeing as how she has no part in that choice. many sex workers dont (human trafficking and whatnot) however to extend it to a pretty girl who gets a raise seems a bit ridiculous.

i also think traditional marriage is basically legal prostitution.

i am not sure we can define empowerment for the exact reasons you stated maddy, that it means something else to everyone. you may not think stripping is empowering, but for some it is bc they have a different defintion. i personally dont know how i view it, i only know i support a womans right to choose that. and by choose i dont mean forced into bc sex work is the only industry where a woman can make more than a man or can make money quickly.

i think that if anything bothers me about sex work its just that. that a woman can use her body to make a ton of money and its the only place where women DO make more then men on all levels, whether it be prostitution, stripping or anything else. it pisses me off that the one industry where it is possible for women to do better then men is based on a mans purchase of her or her services, and not her brain but her body.

then i go back and think, well, are we just capitalizing on men's inherent stupidity and inability to keep it in their pants? and if that is the case, then maybe its not infurtiating to me.

none of this addresses the sex workers who truly enjoy it, which i know are maybe not the majority but aare many and we heard from a few. in that case, if what you are doing makes YOU happy and YOU feel good, well then to me thats all that matters alot of the time.

[knorl05]

greenbean: what does being a feminist mean to you?

[maddy29]

ooh, that's interesting pixie! or what about a store like good vibrations which is i think a feminist run place....

[pixiedust]

I agree...I don't think anyone's being torn down at all. In fact, given how controversial the other thread got, I'm surprised at good of a discussion is going on here and how people are expressing opinions without getting jumped on.

I think the talk about waitresses and wives and that sort of thing is really more about expressing frustration at the broadness of the topic. Everyone's definition of empowerment is different; everyone's definition of sex work is going to be different. I think because we are looking at such a broad subject it is really hard find generalizations that fit each area. It would be easier to divide it up and look at the different areas of eth sex industry...and tehre again we get back into the definition of whether certain jobs are really part of the sex industry.

How about the ladies who sell sex toys at the home parties? I would say they work in the sex industry, but I see what they do much differently than a stripper or prostitute. They are selling sex, but they are not necessarily selling their own sex appeal.

[maddy29]

greenbean-where do you see women being torn down? I think it's a good discussion-people are just expressing their opinions.

The waitress thing is a good point- you probably get tipped better if you flirt or smile at the nasty guys that leer at you...but you aren't exchanging sex, so it's different.

i know what you mean about the whole "if i was a good feminst, i'd be a doctor, or somethign!" something more than what i am....

i don't know what your sexual orientation is-but do you go to male or female strip clubs? just curious, cause i find a lot of women will go to female strip clubs with their man.

[greenbean]

I can't believe all the tearing down of beautiful, sexual women going on here!
I'm a waitress and I get good tips. Do some patrons see me as a sex object? Probably. If that makes me a sex worker so be it. I gotta make a living somehow.

You know, I'm hearing a lot about how girls are 'just expected to look pretty' and 'brainy girls are ignored' and I toooooootally disagree. I'm constantly feeling inadaquate for being 'just a waitress'. I wish I could make the feminist community proud and be a doctor or pro-skater or something to be proud of.

I was brought up under pressure to be good at math and science. I went to an uptight, all-girl catholic prep school that boasted high test scores and graduation rates. We had to dress modestly and we were not allowed to express sexuality in any way. I always felt like a failure because not matter how hard I tried, I could not excel in my studies. I was always daydreaming about sex and romance (eventho I wasnt exposed to much) and really could care less about being a career gal or 'powerful'.

Honestly, as much as some women hate the beauty standard they feel they cant live up to, I hate the 'female ceo/executive/politician/phd' standard I feel I cant live up to.
Am I not a feminist because I am not sucessful in male-dominated avenues? Am I not a feminist because I gravitate towards love and sex and beauty rather than math and business? Am I not a feminist because I own porn tapes and go to strip clubs? bah.

[maddy29]

doodle-it's funny you brought up marriage, because i got in a fight on another board-this woman was saying she married her hubby for financial security, and doesnt' love him. they were saying she was a prostitute. i was like that's just marriage, not prostitution! but it's true, she didn't have kids, didn't take care of the house, didn't do much of anything except just be a warm body for her husband.

the thing about that damn word- "empowerment" is that it's become this catchy catchall term that really doesnt' mean anything much to me anymore.

and i agree-feeling good does NOT equal empowerment. getting drunk feels good, but it's not empowering. stripping may FEEL good, and you may FEEL powerful, but it's just an illusion of power.

I guess, maybe we should try to define empowerment. what does that really mean? the ability to make your own choices? a sense of being in touch with what you want, and feeling able to go out and make it happen? is it freedom?

i'm in a bit of a silly struggle- my boy is interested in taking some arty shots of me, nothing porn like, no nudity or anything-just like nature shots with me in them. so part of me is all excited and is like weee! i get to dress up like a wood nymph and feel all beautiful and crap! the other part of me thinks-shit, is this just exciting to me because it makes me feel like some kinda model? is it fulfiling some need to be seen as beautiful, or feminine, or what? i mean, i think it's fun sometimes to get dressed up all girly and stuff, but does it just feel good because it's like i'm finally doing what society wants me to do? i'm probably overanalyzing, hee

[doodlebug]

I don't have the brain power for this tonight, but one thing comes to mind....

If we are going to extend the sex trade to bartenders and advertising (which I agree is worth discussing), why not stay-at-home wives? Surely the way some women fuss over their appearance in order to attract and "win" a husband who will support them is a form of prostitution?

I mean this sincerely. While I think being a stay-at-home mom (or dad) is a job (which ought to be compensated), what about women who don't work outside the home and don't have kids? Unwaged maid, cook, and prostitute? When we talk about men marrying trophy wives, why don't we call the women who marry them prostitutes? ESPECIALLY when we're talking about what happens to appearance-reliant women when their looks are "gone"...we know that men dump their trophy wives for newer and younger versions all the time.

When The Total Woman came out, there was something in it about a woman who greeted her husband at the door wearing nothing....and the very next day, she got the new fur coat she wanted! To me, that's prostitution. But the woman who wrote it was selling the virtues of traditional marriage!

So where DO we draw the line? Because I tell you honestly, I think I'd feel more powerful earning and controlling my own money by selling my body as a stripper, than marrying a guy and being financially dependent on him.

[zahia1996]

I got so wrapped up reading what you all had to say that I completely forgot about dinner and burnt the rice. My house is now filled with the most awful stench!! You guys are that interesting
I see what Nohope is getting at, and it took me a minute to sort this out in my mind...but there's a difference (i think) between sexual marketing, and sex work. In sexual marketing, a company (clothing, alcohol, etc.) uses the illusion of sex to sell a product that is actually totally unrelated to sex. In sex work, you are literally selling sex for money, prostitution being the most literal form of that, pornography being a little more figurative.
FJ- i love the attitude you have. It reminded me that i need to be less concerned with how others view me, and more concerned with how I feel about myself.
As for empowerment...its such a vague thing to try and define. I guess for me, I believe that its something fairly steady that you feel, like a sense of control, and security, and satisfaction in your life, rather than a momentary boost of confidence. Also, that its something you derive from within yourself and results in "power" over your own life. So, then the best non-example I can come up with is that I wouldn't consider someone involved in the white power movement to be empowered, because they are concerned with power over people they consider inferior.

[sixelacat]

So, I think what girlbomb is trying to differentiate is the difference between female empowerment (anything that makes a female feel empowered) and feminist empowerment (that which makes a female feel empowered but includes the context of current female roles in patriarchal society and that society's resulting inadequacies towards the feminine). Is that a close definition?

Although I do see what nohope meant about bartending (I've watched the same attractive bartender make more money in tips than her less attractive but more experienced and knowledgeable co-worker week after week at my local, and had conversations with both about it. The attractive bartender told me she wears more revealing clothing simply because she knows she gets better tips, and her co-worker says she doesn't care because she's probably going to be made bar manager soon-which is true) I think that his definition of the sex industry is far too broad, because it includes literally everything.

[knorl05]

nohope: although i respect your opinion, i completely disagree that bartending and prostitution are at all in the same category. i was a bartender, and it is a hard job, both physically and mentally. it requires physical stamina and mental agility. waitresses and bartenders work hard for their money, and it has nothing to do with how they or others view them sexually.

[girlbomb]

Okay, I'd edit my last post, but I'd rather let it stand and try to clarify it, because now it doesn't look right to me. I'm not equating racism and porn; I understand that posing is something that doesn't affect anyone else while racism is. I just meant to say that whatever we do that makes us feel powerful is "empowering," and I think feminist empowerment is defined more narrowly.

I have tremendous respect for all Busties in this discussion, and their choices, and don't want to cast aspersions on anyone (see other thread for my defense of sex workers). As noted, it's not up to me to decide what empowers other people. Just, that term is so misused, I think, and it frustrates me.

[knorl05]

girlbomb: thats an excellent point. it's true many people are self-centered when it comes to their lives, which i think extends far beyond the porn debate. unfortunately, i feel the media plays a huge role in creating this approach in people, especially women. i mean really, we are told that what is most important about us is looking beautiful. we are bombarded with messages, advertising, and images everyday that force us to feel we either conform to this idea of beauty or end up alone. not too many women are encouraged to engage their minds, the brainy ones are portrayed as uncool, masculine, or dowdy. unfortunately, young women growing up (especially in todays society) dont have too many strong role models in the media of whom to look up to. it's interesting because as far as we've come, it seems we will always face resistance and struggle. there are still going to be the people who hold onto the idea that the most favored woman is the one who is seen and not heard. i feel both men and women alike feel a smart woman is a threat, simply because i feel women do have an advantage in being female. we have to be stronger, we have to work harder, we have to prove ourselves more than a man. i feel any minority has to do this, considering the average person is going to have some sort of prejudice toward minorities. i see that many woman who are considered sexy could derive their identity from their sexuality simply because this is what society expects of her. i really find it hard to believe that all these beautiful sexy women in the sex industry have either average or below average intelligence (not meant to be an insult, only an observation considering none of them have really accomplished anything intellectually). i think that because this is all they're told they have to do in life, be beautiful and sexy, that's all they work toward. they dont engage their minds because they dont need to, they can get by in life on their looks. i just wonder how fulfilling it really is. and you're right, how meaningful is that empowerment in the real world of social interaction? but again i can see that just comes back to ethics, morals, and personal responsibility. but that's something we cant really impose on people, because it takes away their freedom to choose if we did. there are ways to do our part to help enlighten and educate others, and set a strong example, without taking away their right to be who they want to be. i feel one of the greatest things we can do for others is to be our best self, and be the person we most respect, to set a strong example. i feel that first and foremost, this is what we can contribute to society independent of any political activism or social reform.

[nohope]

I consider anything in which sexuality is used to produce an outcome to make some kind of market transaction as something that is part of the sex industry. To me that extends form Gap jeans, to bartending, to prostitution, even I think it extends to market transactions in relationships where sex or sexual appeal are used to influence transactions between the partners.

I agree with people here who are saying there is a fundamental difference between feeling empowered and being empowered. I also think there is a distinct difference between individual empowerment and group empowerment. A women could be empowered by sexuality with in patriarchy because patriarchy denies women any other form of empowerment, and so this reliance on sexuality as a form of empowerment, particularly if it is the sole means of empowerment, can at the same time act to disempowered women hood, that is it could act, and I think does act often to deprive women who want to exercise other avenues of power from doing so.

i.e. who many women are in the sciences… and or think I’m a girl…. Girls are scientists…. I’m going to be a scientist…. Not to many….. Compared to say girls who think I’m going to be a model….

Some how being a model, a teacher, a nurse are automatic acceptable concepts of what it means to be a women… I’m going to be a scientist just isn’t.

I find that troubling… and that is what I find most troubling about the sex industry… the way it narrows the focus of what women can imagine themselves as being….

And ultimately if patriarchy has a deep power that power comes from who it controls the way men and women think about themselves and about their roles and relationship to the world…. The way it closes off not opportunities, but the very ability to conceive of oneself out side the gender construct…

[girlbomb]

Okay, I'm not trying to be a total see-you-next-Tuesday, but again, if "empowerment" means that you feel good about yourself, then great. I support women feeling great about themselves, especially sexually. I personally feel great about myself, especially sexually, after two margaritas. So is booze empowering? Is it a feminist choice for me to get drunk to feel sexier? What if I feel powerful when I insult people of other nationalities? That may be empowering to me, but how meaningful is that empowerment in the real world of social interaction?

I don't want to take away from anybody's right to feel good about their naked pictures. I love feeling great about my body; I love feeling like other people find me sexy. I just think the word "empowering" is kind of...broadly applied. I don't think porn equals power.

[knorl05]

FJ: you have an amazing philosophy on life that i think everyone can benefit from, whether male or female regardless of sex appeal. standing up remaining strong and doing whatever you can to create the life you want to live. i admire that.

zahia: that's a very good point. i just think it's different with sex appeal because it is so subjective; i dont really see it as a strong foundation of which to establish one's identity.
i agree that there is no way to stop sex work, they say it's the oldest profession. and as maddy pointed out, people will always find a way to engage in whatever activities they want, whether or not its legal or moral. people want their freedom. education, tolerance and safety are huge in creating a more healthy society, this is true. the thing is that i dont necessarily see social order as a way of creating a better society, as i see that it is primarily dictated by parties who have vested interests. i dont see too many people standing up and speaking for women in the sex industry, and i wonder how long it would take for prostitution (etc) to be decriminalized. but its definitely worth the fight if even a small change can take place..because that's where it starts.

pixie: i know it, is true. and then there are the mothers who dont have time for their unruly kids so they put them in boot camp. everyone is going to raise their kids as best they know how regardless of their profession. its just unfortunate that, in general, the lifestyle of a sex worker really isnt conducive to a stable family life.

maddy: most definitely; you know, you just wonder if someone's self esteem rests in their sex appeal or appearance, how would they feel surrounded by blind people? sounds silly, but really, they wouldnt have the same affect on these people, because their appearance wouldnt even matter. so then how would they feel about themselves, really? what would they feel they could offer as an individual?

doodle: so very true. our ethics and values change throughout life, the more independent minded and mature we become. the more we experience and learn about ourselves, the more we can determine what really matters to us. each one of us should have the advantage to be in control of our own lives, unfortunately there are many circumstances that sometimes make that difficult.

erinjane: you seem like a very down to earth well rounded intelligent woman. more power.

[knorl05]

absolutely no time to reply, at work. just wanted to write quick and say i love the feedback.