[msp]

But nonetheless it would horrify me to learn that my 22-year-old friend was having sex with a 13-year-old girl. A 22-year-old is a grown adult. A 13-year-old is a child.

[mr_falljackets]

but are we in agreement that when there is a power differential (student/teacher) that it's wrong, no matter what the age is?

No. I don't think it's intellectually honest to generalize every relationship with a "power differential" such as you describe as ethically precluding a sexual relationship. I'm positive there are folks to be found, former teacher/students, employee/employers and so forth that would testify to having experienced fruitful and emotionally rewarding relationships following their taboo acts. I personally know of a guy, brother of a friend of mine, who started fucking a neighborhood 14-year old girl (or was it 13?) when he was 22 (yeah, when he told me that a few years back I experienced the same gut reaction you just did) and now some ten or fifteen years later they are married, have two children and would tell you they are very happy. I guess some might argue that perhaps she's fucked up now thanks to him so her testimony should be stricken but, knowing her as I think I do, I would say otherwise. Is all well that ends well? I don't know. What he did was inarguably a felony and by any legal measure he is/was a sexual predator. But it ended up "good". They are an anecdotal exception to a rule that is increasingly understood to be sacrosanct. I'm just sayin...

[maddy29]

ok, so clearly there is confusion around age, but are we in agreement that when there is a power differential (student/teacher) that it's wrong, no matter what the age is? (not counting past age 18 here).. or are people not so sure about that, too?

it is weird, considering how young girls used to be getting married and having babies, and now we consider that WAY too young to even have sex...

[sybarite]

'Society' dictates a lot of things I don't agree with, don't subscribe to and don't practice. Furthermore, judging sexual development by age is arbitrary at best. The flipside is allowing 'nature' to always take its course, which can be damaging, sometimes irreparably so. I have certainly been attracted to people in various situations but chose not to act on it as the consequences would be too damaging. Or in the past I have acted on it and the consequences were damaging.

Everyone deals with natural attraction differently within the context of their own lives. I think generally it's a balancing act between attraction and desire and other responsibilities, whatever they may be. Everyone decides on their own balancing act and the criteria for that, of course.

I don't have a lot of faith in the legal system's ability to deliver pure justice. That said, boundaries must still be put in place for the protection of children, however able and canny and aware those children may be. If anything, legal restrictions will at least make minors think about who they are about to have sex with, and hopefully why. Protecting the vulnerable is exactly it.

Btw, I put both society and nature in quotes because their meanings are so wide-ranging that any one of us can have a different understanding of either... the quotes are there to indicate these are complex and contradictory concepts in themselves.

/been essay writing, hence hyperbole...

[butterfly]

Thanks Maddy!

*spreads the love around!*

[maddy29]

"so you try to legislate to protect the vulnerable."

Eggggggxactly! Butterfly you so smaht!!!!!

and i agree with vesica-what you wrote is perfect!!!

[butterfly]

Thank you Vesica.

[vesicapisces]

it sure would've been easier if, at the age of 14, I'd known that I had more value than what was in my pants, and that I was allowed to say no. That that guy flirting with me wasn't interested in what was best for me, and that 'I' was meant to take care of me.

BEAUTIFUL.

[butterfly]

How do ya'll think/type so quickly?

Yeah, I don't know about the science, and I agree about the definative time line (it was 16 for me, not 18), and I guess I was talking (originally in this thread) about the believe that "it's different for boys", which I guess you're much more qualified to answer.
I think there's a difference between getting it on with someone that's your peer, and someone who's "groomed" you into thinking that that's what you want. And knowing the difference isn't always going to be easy, so you try to legislate to protect the vulnerable.
Criminalizing a couple of kids that want to get their freak on? No.
Making sex dirty, shameful, "pure" or what have you? No

Just looking out for people who may not have the power to look after themselves.

ETA

Thank you Butterfly. Should I tell FJ or should we just keep this between us?

NNNNOOOOOOOO!
oh man, I'm so sorry!
See, that's trying to keep up with you guys and your speed typing. When I'm a few martinis in.

[maddy29]

tee hee-i'm telling fj!!!!! cheaterpants

yah, i agree about the whole 15 minutes thing. But, i felt that way about drinking too, voting, etc. i mean, there are lots of things you can't do when you're young- rent a car, drive, etc.

you may not be more mature 15 minutes later, but you'll be an adult, and responsible for your own choices,in a way that you aren't at 16 or 17.

i think the thing is, it's not so much about age, but about power, control, choices, safety, etc. I don't have a problem with teens having sex as long as they know they can say no, know how to say know, can accept being said no to, have safe sex, go the gyn, get tested, etc etc. And we can thank the damn right for kids NOT knowing/doing these things.

i personally think that all little girls (and boys) should be taught how to ferociously fight back against unwanted sexual advances. it's like, we think if we tell kids stuff liek that it'll scare them, so instead we leave them defenseless and totally unprepared for reality.

la la, i'm babbling now.

[mr_falljackets]

I love how my life is right now, and I love you

Thank you Butterfly. Should I tell FJ or should we just keep this between us?

[butterfly]

mr fj, I think it's the 'genuinely' bit?

I think we gather positive/negative expereinces from all the people that we meet, fuck, love, and that hopefully we have fun along the way.
I wouldn't change anything that happened to me, because I love how my life is right now, and I love WHO I've turned out to be.
But it sure would've been easier if, at the age of 14, I'd known that I had more value than what was in my pants, and that I was allowed to say no. That that guy flirting with me wasn't interested in what was best for me, and that 'I' was meant to take care of me.

I don't feel all that comfortable personalizing this so much, but I don't know how else to say what I mean.

[mr_falljackets]

By "nature conspired" I simply mean all those biochemically gooey feelings of intense and mutual sexual attraction we get and can't seem to do shit about once we get them. I'm not intelligent enough on the science of sexual attraction to have articulated it any more convincingly so I subbed "nature conspired" for what I'm incapable of describing.

I do think it's sort of silly to pretend that 15 minutes before the clock turns on your 18th birthday you lack the wisdom and maturity to make significant life decisions that you will suddenly possess 15 minutes later.

[maddy29]

mr fj-i think the answer is in vesica's post- if you look just at a few individuals, ok maybe they are fine. But, as a society, do we want adults having sex with kids? I say no. I do agree that it's confusing as to where that line should be drawn. If 18 is an adult, than maybe once you are 18 you can have sex with whoever you want. Before that, have sex with people under 18.

What about a 15 year old girl and a 12 year old boy? 18 year old boy and 13 year old girl? 21 y.o. man and 13 y.o. boy?

Not sure what you mean about "nature conspired." I mean, people are attracted to each other all the time and don't act on it. Humans just have sexual feelings. What we act on is what matters. Not sure quite what you mean...

[butterfly]

(we say seduction for males, grooming for females)

Maddy,Vesica, I agree.
I guess I didn't express myself very well yesterday, and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it all day. So thanks for putting into words what I think.
(Pepper, I edited out some of my post before I realised you'd quoted some of it. I hope you don't think I was reacting to you negatively or anything)

[mr_falljackets]

I'm just going to ask this and ask it sincerely: if two reproductively able people are genuinely attracted to each other on a biochemical level we can agree that nature conspired it to happen so how can we say that it is necessarily and in all cases a bad thing that one of them is younger than the arbitrary age restrictions set in place by society?

Responses other than "what if your daughter so and so" are appreciated.

[vesicapisces]

i don't like the double standard here. 14 y.o. boys are just as clueless as 14 y.o. girls.

And that's *exactly* why there has to be a legal standard, even if on a case-by-case basis an individual 14 year old may have an absolutely terrific experience, even in retrospect, shagging their brains out with someone 50% older than they (which is what it would be if a 14 year old was fucking a 21 year old.) Why would you *want* to do someone so much younger and less experienced? Power over, control, for the thrill of it - or as a sort of altruistic thing, "I wanted her/his first experience to be with someone who knew what they were doing" (which you do hear from abusers pretty frequently) -- um, ew?

I thought Lafave had a really good point tho', toward the end (the only part I saw), when she said she thought she should be in jail, and that if she'd been a guy under the same exact circumstances, she *would* be in jail. I didn't see that part - why *didn't* she get jail time?

[maddy29]

i have to say- 100%- no teacher should EVER have a sexual relationship with a student. i don't care if the teacher is 20 and the student is 18 and a senior in high schoo. it's immoral, unethical, inappropriate, and abusive.

I feel sooo bad for boys who are sexually abused and assaulted-because that's all they hear-men can't be raped, boys liked it because it was the hot teacher/babysitter, boys are all so horny they're just happy to get laid, they don't \care who it is. Yeah, they fucking care. Male incest/sexual abuse/assault survivors have like, NO VOICE at all. they aren't allowed to call it rape, cause "everyone knows it's really hard to rape a guy." WHATEVER. Men and boys are raped everyday, and it's a real crime, and it's traumatizing to them, whether they show it in ways we're used to, or not. GRRRR.

When I was 14, I was IN LOVE/LUST with my sunday school teacher. he was so hot, rode a motorcycle and wore a leather jacket. he was there because he'd gotten into some trouble or something and had to make amends or some shit. we talked a bit, and i could tell he liked me, and i would've basically done anything, cause i was 14. luckily, he was a good enough person to recognize what was happening, and kinda backed off. i was hurt and confused, but later realized it was good that he protected me-he was the adult and he realized that. he was only 21, and i was 14, and yeah i was "mature" but i was a kid, and he was an adult. it would have been wrong. illegal, too.

and yeah, what kind of weirdo 20 year old+ wants to fuck a 14y.o.? that's the weird part. i mean, have you looked at a 14 y.o. boy lately? they are like, babies. so yeah, it's fucking sick when an adult goes after that. it's one thing to say "oh he's cute, but he's 15" it's another thing to "seduce" him. (we say seduction for males, grooming for females)

i don't like the double standard here. 14 y.o. boys are just as clueless as 14 y.o. girls.

[msp]

At the end of the day, how a 14-year-old feels about the sexual situation is beside the point for me. I don't care if the 14-year-old signs a notarized sworn affidavit to the effect that he/she wanted it, loved it, doesn't regret it. I'm thinking about the adult who chose to have sex with a... what, an 8th grader? A freshman in high school? What's wrong with you? A 20, 23, 25-year-old should know better.

[pepper]

i read somewhere years ago that the incidence of cervical cancer is higher in women who started having sex before sexual maturity (around 18) as well.
teenagers tend to be careless about using protection, asking about sexual history and talking to their doctors about their own activities as well, not to mention being pushovers when it comes to being talked out of something they know they should do or into something they know they shouldn't do.

bunny, that would suggest to me that she was normalised to inappropriate behavoir herself. it certainly isn't an excuse but it might explain things a bit.