[bunnyb]

I'm not too informed about the Debra Lafave case but I did read that she was allegedly raped when she was 13, and had a few abusive relationships? Not that this defends what happened, but it does seem to be a classic case of the abused becoming the abuser. She needed to be in control.

[girlygirlgag]

I think it is very inappropriate for a 20 year old to date a 16 year old.

There is also medical research that the human brain is not fully developed until a persons' early twenties, so no, I do not think a 14 year old is capable of making wise decisions when it comes to adult situations. I beleive that a 14 year old may *think* they are capable, but as a parental figure, aunt, and older sister, I know better.

Also, an adult does *know* better.

I lost my virginity when I was 14 and did not do it again until I was almost 18, because I *knew* I was too young for that kind of intensity.

This woman raped this child, she knew what she was doing was wrong. She just didn't care.

[bunnyb]

oh glad you've read Oleanna too, syb! There's also Petrarch's Laureen who was very young, Edgar Allan Poe's Virginia Clemm (Annabel Lee) and Humbert Humbert's Lolita. It seems as if muses are always younger/innocent children...

[sybarite]

I recognise that 14 year olds (for example) may have varying degrees of experience and horniness, but I think a legal line does have to be drawn somewhere. An adult entering into a sexual relationship, of whatever degree, with a legal minor is abusing their power. If the adult is a teacher there is a significantly greater power imbalance involved. So yes, Lafave was wrong and so was Mary Kay Letourneau. Letourneau went on to marry the student and have children; so did Woody Allen with Soon-yi. I still think both situations arose and probably have damaging vestiges of an unacceptable abuse of power.

Then there's literature, where (I think) Dante fell in love with Beatrice when she was a child. And there's Oleanna, the play bunnyb noted, which explores a professor-student relationship where the student was legally an adult. In Oleanna, IMO, it's an abuse of power but not the same thing; damaging, sure, but not, perhaps, to her sexual development. (Given that it's fiction, but the same scenario still plays out IRL sometimes in universities despite tight legislation.)

However, just because there are precedents does not make this abuse of power ever less than abusive.

(I suspect I'm preaching to the choir here...)

[pepper]

i still think that a fifteen year old able to make mature, reasonable decisions about sexuality is the exception, not the norm.

[katiebelle2882]

i began actually having intercourse 8 days after i turned 15 and i dont regret it at all. i think some are more capable then others to make decisions like this.

[pepper]

"one of the effects is that I became sexualized from an early age, and also normalised to inappropriate behaviour. "
i think this is exactly what happened to my x and also to the boy who is now 20 and married to his abuser.
and i think it's what's happening to boys and girls in this culture at large.

"I began my consensual sexual life when I was 14, and absolutely loved it, don't regret it, don't feel that I was wrong to do it.
But I do now realise how vulnerable I was."
me too and looking back as an adult who has worked through those issues of being normalised to inappropriate behavior i can now say that i think it was say, way too young.

"i also dont put much stock in "legal" definitions of being able to consent, bc i think it does a disservice to 14 year olds who are perfectly capable of making decisions and i think it is informed by puritanical ideology."
i am the mother of a boy, i am also the (much) older sister of two girls and two boys and i do NOT agree with that at all. 14 year olds are (generally, i am sure there are a few exceptions, but generally this is true) nowhere near capable of making a decision about their sexuality. most of them are midway (if that) through puberty and actually insane with the hormones. i remember feeling just completely crazy at that stage (i am calling it kidult, on the verge of both). there are few experiences quite so intense and upheaving as puberty IMHO and i think that major life decisions are most possibly better made when not under such duress. sure, kidults are on their way to being perfectly capable of rational decision making, but they aren't quite there yet and that's what their parents, teachers, and other authority figures are there for. to help, to guide, to deter harm. even though i have been having sex since i was 14 i think it is too young.

[katiebelle2882]

yeah thats my take on it. i think its all grey. even withint the grey area there is more grey. i mean can we rule out seduction of teacher by student, esp in college? i know there were a few profs i wanted to get my hands on, and although i didnt, i wouldnt have thought they were taking advantage of me.


and yes i totally agree with bunnyb on this one. although, it may move towards b at a later date. as in, they regret it later.

[bunnyb]

I get your meaning polly; I think C is the gray area that this discussion most fits, moving towards D category as opposed to B.

[pollystyrene]

I'm not sure whose opinion this falls in line with (if anyone's), but I think there's a lot of gray area between being in A) a fully consensual sexual relationship, B) being in a consensual sexual relationship but regretting it later for one reason or another (i.e., a one night stand or maybe a longer term thing where you realize later it was unhealthy) and C) being in a relationship that may be consensual in the loosest terms, but is really one where someone's getting taken advantage of (i.e., a teacher and student past the age of consent, even college-age or older) and D) a completely unhealthy sexual relationship (i.e. a one time sexual assault, or a longer term abusive relationship where one partner knows it's unhealthy, knows it's not consensual, but either by force or circumstance, can't leave.)

I'm not sure what my point is, but I was thinking about this while I was reading the other replies, and would be interested in other's thoughts on this.

ETA: Has anyone else seen an interview with that "couple" where they met when the girl was 8 years old and the guy was 15 (or somewhere around that age), he was her older brother's friend; now, she's 15 or 16 and he's 23 and they've been dating since she was 13, he was 20? I think they either live together with his or her family and now they want her parents to authorize her to marry him. It's kinda twisted. I saw an interview with them and he said something like "I knew from when I was 15 and first met her that I loved her." Dude, she was 8!! I don't doubt that people with such an age difference can be in love, but I think it's pretty sick when the older person persues or goes along with it when the younger person is still a child. I mean, if he really loves her and has loved her since she was a kid, that's fine, but let her grow up innocently, without the knowledge of your feelings until she's at least 16. I just think that something that seems normal at 13 and continues on into late teenager-hood/adulthood isn't necessarily normal, but what do you do when you're 25 and have been living like this the whole time and want out? You've probably got a warped sense of relationships. It just creates a bad situation.

[katiebelle2882]

so what if its a 20 year old and a 15 year old? where do you draw the line? thats my only point. a 14 year old and a 16 year old? cause i know i dated someone who was 20 when i was 15 and i certainly wouldnt consider myself "assaulted". i think its rather ridiculous to assume people that age dont have any idea what they think and feel. i find that horribly dsmissive of someones ability to reason at any age. as someone who is 24 and remembers being this age and what one was capable of thinking and feeling at that moment, i think your view is rather condescending.

what if she wasnt a teacher?

i dont necessarily agree with throwing a guy in the slammer either depending on how large the age gap is.

personally, nothing is that black and white. the real problem i see is the power deferential btw teacher and student.

yeah bunnyb i know what you are saying though, and as someone who has had a personal experience with it, i totally can see how your point of view would change bc of that, which makes sense. for whatever reason, and maybe its bc of how women are stereotyped as using sex to get ahead in the workplace or whatever, men arent as threatened by it in a professional setting. it makes me uncomfortable bc of how far we have to go in terms of achieving equality, and lets face it, men in society by and large are not objectified, while women are. so perhaps when they are, it becomes a change of pace for them and the like being pursued by a woman in power. who knows.


am i making sense? most likely not. ha.

[girlygirlgag]

An adult having sex with a child is an ASSAULT. P E R I O D.

If this was a male teacher, he would be in the slammer and deemed a rapist, even IF his victim was willing.

These women are preying on a childs' emotions.

Sorry Katie, I think your attitude is pretty antiquated and sexist.

[bunnyb]

I'm not sure how the receiver felt, I imagine flattered because it's a good looking, sexually confident, girl in a position of authority who is paying him attention. I get now that abuse of power and sexual harrassment are different things, I should have realised that earlier.

o/t slightly: has anyone read David Mamet's play Oleanna? V. interesting on power-conflict between teacher and student (college).

[butterfly]

Thanks Katie, I could feel that kind of panic like *shit* how do i explain myself without making this so,so much worse....

[katiebelle2882]

i agree bunnyb with the even if its partly your fault, you are still the younger person in the equation.

but in terms of sexual harassment, if that boy didnt want those texts and it made him uncomfortable then yes it most certainly was. if he liked it, well then no it wasnt.

[wombat]

((bunnyb))

of course you weren't at fault. He should have realized that you were exploring your adult self on an intellectual, artistic, and yes, sexual level, and that you needed to know that you were attractive and could be taken seriously in the world of adults that you were entering... but he should not have actually crossed the line on actual sexual or romantic behavior.

[katiebelle2882]

i overreacted butterfly. i am sorry. i do not think we should underestimate males who consciously say they have been sexually assaulted. not by any stretch of the imagination. i also dont put much stock in "legal" definitions of being able to consent, bc i think it does a disservice to 14 year olds who are perfectly capable of making decisions and i think it is informed by puritanical ideology.

i also think its unethical for a teacher to have a sexual relationship with a pupil, bc it is an asbuse of power. but it doesnt necessarily mean these boys viewed it as a horrible experience. furthermore, i think there is a good chance they thought it was a good one. (but agaibn, we dont know for sure).

i also think its entirely possible for a girl to make the same decision, although i think sometimes maybe we are more easily coerced into it? not really sure what i think about that.

i dont think all men are cocked and ready to fire, i do however think they are more likely to jump in the sack quickly with whomever. the fact remains in my view that unless a man is out cold from drugs or booze, its almost impossible for a full grown make to be raped by a female. a boy however is a different story obviously.

i mean there are far less male victims of sexual assault then females as well, not that that means we should ignore those that have had something horrible like that happen to them though.

this is such a tricky subject.

[bunnyb]

word wombat. I was foolish, if not precocious, but just because I realise -retrospectively- that I'm partly to blame does not mean that I was fully to blame, that it doesn't make it any less of an abuse of power. I still feel dirty and used and taken advantage of. That was the point I was trying to make: children are children, they are innocent and unknowing and don't know what they want until it's too late. An adult should know better.

[wombat]

Yeah, I'm thinking boys (and girls) want sex, but they don't want to have it with an adult. It should be someone of their own age. And if they make overtures to an adult, the adult should refuse, because difference in power - and the motivations and general mental state of the adult in that situation -- would end up being harmful on an emotional, sexual and social level, to the child later.

Teenagers can be foolish, that doesn't mean that adults should be allowed to take advantage of their foolishness.

[bunnyb]

oh, I obviously missed the dictionary definition.