[jsmith]

Men land themselves in hot water in Afghanistan for translating the quran This is exactly why I, personally, think religion has no place in government/politics.


That's definitely a concern (re: what would happen to children of older parents should something happen to them), but right now that's the only ethical question I can think of.

[culturehandy]

oops

[culturehandy]

i agree, I think the concern here is who is going to take care of these children should something happen to the parents? As we know health problems increase with age. Are there ethical concerns here?

[jsmith]

If they're going to slam a 60 yo woman for daring to want to have children and actually go through with it, they had better start vilifying men who have children at that age. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[culturehandy]

Soooooooo

[girltrouble]

it's good to see you posting hoosier. you always have something to add. but i think we need to pull this back to the case in this point-- that being a mother of atleast 12. who, from the latest account has conceived all of her children via ivf. which from what you are saying could not have been cheap. either way. but it seems to me that for her it is about the pregnancy and the attention you get as a mother of a young child, since she's obviously not as into taking care of kids when they are older. i think it is important to talk about the comparative costs, but i think this woman's issues have little to do with cost, and everything to do with the attention mothers receive.

[girltrouble]

2xpost

[zoya]

no, I wasn't implying that adoption is less expensive, only that if people are going to extremes in the costs of trying to conceive, that the money could go to adopting and raising a child that is already here and needing a family.

I think that my personal issues with the extremes of trying to get pregnant stem from when, a few years ago, a good friend of mine and her husband went into the very high tens of thousands trying to get pregnant. They mortgaged their house, etc. and my friend got so obsessed with getting pregnant that it strained their marriage to quite literally nearly the breaking point. She never did get pregnant from any of the treatments, and they ended up pulling things together again and adopting. The only concern I ever really expressed to her was the amount of debt they were going into, but at the end of the day she is my friend and I had to support her. However, I do still feel that after a few rounds of IVF and everything else they did that wasn't working, the money they spent to keep trying would have been better served going towards adopting and raising the child they eventually adopted anyway. (which as you said, probably cost them loads of money on top of what they'd spent already)

I don't know how often people go to those kind of extreme measures / costs to try and get pregnant - but I have to think that my friend is representative of at least some women out there trying to get pregnant. I'm sure the majority of people trying to conceive are like you and your wife, and I back that completely. I'm totally down with having science help things along if you're having a hard time getting pregnant, but if it's not working after a point it just seems to me that rather than going to really extreme measures/expenses, the money would be better served giving a baby who HAS been conceived and needs a home, a home and an upbringing.

again, just my opinion... not trying to convince anyone, just sharing what I feel.

[hoosierman78]

While I do agree that a woman's right to choose should cover every aspect of having (or not having) children - I do personally have an issue with the extreme levels some take fertility treatments to. For as long as I can remember (and I mean like when I was in middle school and started realizing what "fertility treatment" meant) I have not been able to wrap my head around the idea that someone would spend thousands and thousands of dollars on treatments so they can carry their own babies, when that money could be spent adopting & raising one of the thousands of children who don't have a family. Having some treatment to a point, if you're finding it difficult to conceive, I understand. But I find the fact that people become so obsessed with having to have a baby that is genetically theirs that they'll mortgage their house to do it really fucking selfish. That's just my personal outlook on the subject, but I do agree that every woman should at least have that choice.

I'm sorry, but if you are under the impression that adoption is somehow less expensive than fertility treatments, I am going to have to correct you. I can factually state that my wife & I could go through 3 rounds of invitro fertilization for less than it costs to adopt a baby. Why, you might ask? Because adoption agencies are basically legal extortionists. They charge $20,000 plus just to set you up with a mother that wants to give her baby up. Tack on medical expenses, living expenses, food allowance, clothing allowance, attorney fees, etc., and you're very quickly approaching six figures. No, it does not always go to that extreme, but even if you only pay agency & attorney fees, you're easily looking at $25-$30k. Sure, some people get very lucky and through the grapevine get referred to a birth mother through her doctor or a friend and only wind up paying legal fees, but that is the exception to the rule. Oh, and all that only to have the birth mother or natural father be able to change their mind anywhere from 30 days to a year (depending on the state laws) and you're just shit out of luck. They can do it, you are just out your money.

It isn't always vain & selfish. It is often more affordable - especially to those fortunate enough to have insurance coverage.

I'll qualify this post as it being strictly annecdotal, in that it summarizes my personal experiences with my wife & our not being able to have our own children w/out the help of fertility treatments. We are in the process of adopting a yet to be born baby (2-6 weeks) rather than do the IVF we had planned for May. It is not going through an agency, but just sort of fell in our laps (friend of a friend has a friend looking to give up a baby). The expenses I listed for an agency adoption are in line with the fee & expected expense sheets provided by about 6 agencies in Indiana. One round of IVF at our doc is about $7500.

[geekchickknits]

In other interesting vaginal news.....

Surgeons remove kidney through woman's vagina.

[culturehandy]

true true.

[stargazer]

CH, if you read the article, there is a discrepancy if the woman is indeed married. the article mentions her as being single. the ethical concern at this point, after talking with my mom (a nurse), was if the doctor violated any ethics by planting 8 embryos in the mother.

[culturehandy]

While I agree with what everyone is saying. I do have some ethical concerns here. It is difficult for two parents to raise 14 children, It's hard enough to provide emotional support to multiples, but 14...

[pollystyrene]

The plot thickens...

[stargazer]

the octopulets couple thing is very tricky. i agree that we should not judge her decision to have children. have as many kids as you want. BUT...one's actions does affect someone else. while her decision to have 14 chlidren does not directly affect me, her decision indirectly affects me as a taxpayer and as a person on this earth. we are in an economic recession and limited resources on earth, i'm not saying people need to stop living or being caustic, but we need to be wiser with the decisions we make. we have become lazy and spoiled as a society to think we can act callously about consuming, more, more....whether it is kids, homes, the type of phone we have. we are a consumerist society. so, while this couple was thinking very small, "we just want a big family," they were not thinking how this one act will impact others on a societal level. i don't get the same cutbacks as a single, childfree woman. nor, do i think society should cater to people who wish to overpopulate the globe.

[girltrouble]

oh, i know zoya, i'm of two minds on this whole thing. part of my brain is sooooo in agreement with you. and your points are utterly valid. but it just makes me furious.

[jsmith]

.:nazi zombies are on the loose in austin

Heheh, I saw that on the news last night, nearly fell over laughing.
THE END IS COMING!!

Regarding the woman who had octuplets: I can't help but feel that she did this to get attention, to go for some sort of record. I, too, think it's rather irresponsible to have so many kids. From what I've heard, one is hard enough to deal with. But like others here, I wouldn't take it upon myself to try to tell a woman what she can and cannot do regarding her own body. Gawds help the person who would try to tell me what to do, after all.

I'm really sick of all the speculation surrounding the Casey Anthony case. That woman can't eat a peanut butter cracker without someone reading some psychological meaning into it. It would be nice if they would stick with the FACTS.

[zoya]

I agree with you on (again) a personal level, GT, but I do think that on a practical level, if we were to try and stop these people from keeping all the viable embryos, then we would be no better than the anti-abortionists who picket outside family planning / abortion clinics. Just as someone may not agree with my right to choose to have an abortion, I may not agree with their right to choose to keep 8 embryos, thus bringing their family up to 14 kids. But I will uphold the right that we both have to choose what we do in regards to our bodies and reproducing.

We see this situation as sad and selfish, but some people see our views on abortion the same way. I may not agree with the having 14 kids thing, but if I attempt to take their choice to do so away, then I'm no better than the those trying to stop our right to choose abortion. I know that choosing to keep 8 embryos isn't natural, but to be honest, neither is a medical abortion by choice. (and I'm saying this as someone who fully believes abortion should be legal everywhere)

[girltrouble]

i don't know if i'd call it greedy so much as stupid and selfish, and irresponsible. yes, a woman's right to choose, but isn't there some some sort of thing where you hope the choice is reasoned, well thought out and rational? isn't there? it's not as if i am against big families....well, i sort of am. each human on this planet uses up how many resources? if you were in some country where you had no clue about these things that would be one thing, but in the 1st world, call me an ass, but that's irresponsible. and it slays me, absolutely slays me that these are probably the same sort of xtian folk that will not use contraception because that's "unnatural" but go and get something as artificial as fertility treatments. if god's will is where we should draw the line then, lady, get the fuck off of that doctor's table. grrrr! this-- and the marketing some couples do-- going on good morning america, soliciting products and money for something right thinking adults would have never done, makes my blood boil. this is exactly why i hate shows like jon&kate + 8, because it gives these people press, when they deserve none. they deserve our scorn. sorry. i know that will piss some people off, but the talk about how she could have reduced the number of viable embryos, but chose not to is the height of stupid non-thinking. the idea that she couldn't "kill them" is a complete misunderstanding of the conception of life. these people who are having 6, 8, 12+ twins are making a choice. it's very rarely nature run amok, it is playing with human bodies for egotistical reasons, in my view.

and yes, the contractor may make bank and be able to take care of the kids-- for now. but what if he gets killed? what if he loses a limb and is unable to work? from my understanding contractors aren't covered as well as people in the military, if at all for injury.

i'm sorry, but stories like this make me sick.


i got so mad i almost forgot why i came in here:

.:nazi zombies are on the loose in austin:.

[zoya]

While I do agree that a woman's right to choose should cover every aspect of having (or not having) children - I do personally have an issue with the extreme levels some take fertility treatments to. For as long as I can remember (and I mean like when I was in middle school and started realizing what "fertility treatment" meant) I have not been able to wrap my head around the idea that someone would spend thousands and thousands of dollars on treatments so they can carry their own babies, when that money could be spent adopting & raising one of the thousands of children who don't have a family. Having some treatment to a point, if you're finding it difficult to conceive, I understand. But I find the fact that people become so obsessed with having to have a baby that is genetically theirs that they'll mortgage their house to do it really fucking selfish. That's just my personal outlook on the subject, but I do agree that every woman should at least have that choice.