The Lounge Guidelines Help Search Members Calendar Blogs

Welcome Guest [ Log In | Register ] ]

7 Pages V  « < 5 6 7  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> I'm More Feminist Than You Are! Or Am I?, What does it mean to be a feminist?
pixiedust
post Oct 30 2007, 10:22 AM
Post #121


Tink's Red headed Step Sis
***
Posts: 1,810
From: oklahoma


QUOTE(nickclick @ Oct 30 2007, 11:22 AM) *
okay, let's get old-school. is the personal political?

i believe to be feminist you must be pro-choice. but for religious reasons or others you may not choose abortion for yourself. there are many other choices that i don't think are right for my personality and lifestyle, from open relationships to hairy armpits. but i want to live in a society where women can make those choices and live happily and discrimination-free. therefore i am a feminist, and therefore, you are not a feminist if you don't want women to have that right to choose what to do with their bodies.

(i understand the argument gets all - when does life begin? but c'mon, if you're brave enough to want a feminist society, you're smart enough to read some science articles.)

so i suppose, with your help, i answered my own questions. someone doesn't HAVE TO have the personal experiences to believe the political. it's a lot more productive to have a weiner or shave your pits and fight for women's rights than to have a vagina and fight against them.

I guess that really sums up a little of my position. I would never have one...and my big hang up with the whole prolife/prochoice position is that i don't think it is an issue that should be regulated by the govenment. It's a moral issue,not a legal issue. It shouldn't be legal or illegal...it should be up to each person's moral upbringing to decide how they feel about it. blink.gif geez...just in writing that, I realize I am probably more prochoice than not.

I would still say it is counter productive to tell someone, because you are a man, because you oppose abortion, because you choose to be/think/feel/do.......you can't be a feminist.


--------------------
~May the Fleas of one thousand camels infest the crotch of any person who messes up your day, and may their arms be too short to scratch!~
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post Oct 30 2007, 10:08 AM
Post #122


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


QUOTE(roseviolet @ Oct 30 2007, 10:46 AM) *
I don't have to be a member of a racial minority to fight against racism.


No, but I do have to be a member of a racial minority to know what that battleground actually looks like. Too often, the men who have called themselves feminist in my presence have tried to appropriate the term so that they can tell me how to be a better feminist. I support every man who supports feminism, and I do't accuse all male feminists of being liars or whatever, but I don't know if in their hearts they will ever be 100% feminist.

Of course part of this discussion came from the fact that I don't know what 100% feminist looks like.

I want to be wrong on this issue, BTW. I want to believe that men can be feminists.


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nickclick
post Oct 30 2007, 10:05 AM
Post #123


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 2,134
From: jersey


okay, let's get old-school. is the personal political?

i believe to be feminist you must be pro-choice. but for religious reasons or others you may not choose abortion for yourself. there are many other choices that i don't think are right for my personality and lifestyle, from open relationships to hairy armpits. but i want to live in a society where women can make those choices and live happily and discrimination-free. therefore i am a feminist, and therefore, you are not a feminist if you don't want women to have that right to choose what to do with their bodies.

(i understand the argument gets all - when does life begin? but c'mon, if you're brave enough to want a feminist society, you're smart enough to read some science articles.)

so i suppose, with your help, i answered my own questions. someone doesn't HAVE TO have the personal experiences to believe the political. it's a lot more productive to have a weiner or shave your pits and fight for women's rights than to have a vagina and fight against them.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roseviolet
post Oct 30 2007, 09:29 AM
Post #124


Pacifism kicks ass!
***
Posts: 3,064


Lanie, I completely agree that men can be feminists. The idea that a man cannot be a feminist sounds counterintuitive to me. Since the very base of the feminist argument is that all people should be accepted and respected equally no matter their sex, I feel it is hypocritical to say that a man cannot be a feminist. If you don't want people to judge your worthiness solely on your gender, then you shouldn't do it to others.

I don't have to be a member of a racial minority to fight against racism. I don't have to follow an obscure religion to fight for religious freedom. I don't have to be an animal to work towards animal rights. So why should I have to be a woman in order to be a feminist?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
laniethezany
post Oct 30 2007, 09:01 AM
Post #125


BUSTie
**
Posts: 69
From: K3



See, I do believe that men can be feminists. I actually know some men who I feel confident saying are spot-on feminists, actually. They are fully aware of the fact that they benefit from male privilege and are still fighting to end it. Whenever possible they reject its benefits, as well.

To me its very similar to asking whether a white person can be a true activist for racial equality. It's an ongoing process, because the layers of privilege we enjoy and the many, many facets of deeply entrenched systemic inequality take serious time and effort to even recognize much less attempt to undo. But it can be done.

My favorite quote that relates to what I'm talking about - also the quote that sums up how I feel about my work (I'm an almost-lawyer who works for a legal aid agency, meaning we represent poor clients and don't charge fees) - is "If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work together." I see my liberation as being bound up with that of anyone who is oppressed, whatever the reason. I view discrimination based on sex, race, economic class, age, disability, on and on as all part of the same system of oppression.

And I second nickclick - great discussion, kitten!

ETA: On the issue of pro-life = anti-feminist, I think the way I'd frame that question is whether women can truly be equal if they do not have the option to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. For me, it's an issue of autonomy. A woman cannot truly be autonomous if she doesn't have control over when/whether she reproduces. Being less than fully autonomous is not equal. So for me, pro-life feminists are a contradiction in terms. But I'm interested to hear how a person who considers herself a pro-life feminist comes to that position.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post Oct 30 2007, 08:34 AM
Post #126


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


Sometimes I do think that it comes down to you are either with us or against us. Now, I tend to get to that place when I have had a bad day at work and I just can't take any more patriarchy ruining people's lives. But I get there.
I don't think that men can be feminists for the reasons that you listed, nickclick. And when I say men, I men men born men. Transgendered people can be feminist because they, at some point in their lives, have known what it feels like to be treated like a woman.

I do not consider Ann Coulter a feminist. I think she is one of those people who is doing everything that she can to benefit from other people's struggle while spitting in the faces of the people who are still in the trenches fighting her damn war! But, I do think that she is such a horrible, rotten person that maybe I just refuse to share anything with her. I'm pretty sure that if she were to say that the moon is not made of green cheese, I would try to create a scientific investigation to prove that she was wrong.


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nickclick
post Oct 30 2007, 08:07 AM
Post #127


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 2,134
From: jersey


while i certainly agree with the definition of feminism as a practice, the confusion, for me, of what defines someone as a 'feminist' lies between what one believes and how one lives.

a man can believe in that definition of feminism all he wants, and even devote his life to its practice, but he's still living inside a man's body and with a man's experiences in a society that believes he's who matters most. he may validate our cause in a patriarchy, but is he really a 'feminist?'

the flipside is ann coulter. she 'works' hard to be counter-productive to feminism, yet her career and notoriety is possible only because of women that worked hard for the cause of feminism. so since she obviously agrees it's okay for women to have opinions and make money from them, both feminist ideals, is she a 'feminist?'

believe me, i'd much rather have more sympathetic men on our side than any woman like ann coulter. am i being too exclusive? i guess i'm trying to address kitten's topic question. who's more feminist? does it matter? or is it as simple as... you're either with us or against us?

(BTW... thanks for the discussion, kitten!)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
pixiedust
post Oct 30 2007, 07:48 AM
Post #128


Tink's Red headed Step Sis
***
Posts: 1,810
From: oklahoma


On the prolife=non feminist topic...I don't agree. I think prochoice/prolife is so tied to ones religious upbringing that it becomes fundamentally ingrained. I see feminism being almost more of a political view. It's ever evolving with the times and new challenges that women face. So to me, you have to seperate the religious belief from the political agenda. To play devils advocate here....I believe in all women's rights...even the unborn ones!


--------------------
~May the Fleas of one thousand camels infest the crotch of any person who messes up your day, and may their arms be too short to scratch!~
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
faerietails2
post Oct 29 2007, 09:33 PM
Post #129


donut-lovin' heathen
***
Posts: 713
From: Suburban Hell


I pretty much go by the dictionary term--which is also the Feminist Majority Foundation term--of feminism being the strive for social, political, and economic equality between the sexes. After that, I know it completely branches out and the different feminisms rear their ugly heads (I remember how my head was spinning during my Feminist Theory and Women's Movements courses whenever this subject came up)! But I think that the dictionary term is a good base to start off on.

Can a man be a feminist? Sure. We need all the help we can get! wink.gif


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
laniethezany
post Oct 29 2007, 08:21 PM
Post #130


BUSTie
**
Posts: 69
From: K3



I took a Feminist Legal Theory class when I was in law school that delved into all those issues. It blew my socks off. We talked a lot about the course that the progression of women's rights cases took in the law. Back in the day, Ruth Bader Ginsburg (the same woman who now sits on the Supreme Court) was the head of the ACLU's women's rights project. As a way to sort of "sneak in" and get some victories, she challenged laws that furthered inequality by finding men who were hurt by them.

We also talked a lot about whether certain cases were really helping or hindering the cause of women overall - for instance, does a law that protects a particular right have an eventual consequence of furthering the paternalistic "women need to be taken care of" view that's already prevalent in society.

The Wikipedia article about this topic sums it up really well (and it's short). I'm a hybrid of dominance theory and anti-essentialist/postmodern.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post Oct 29 2007, 08:08 PM
Post #131


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


QUOTE
If you believe in, support, look fondly on, hope for, and/or work towards equality of the sexes, you are a feminist.


I really like that. Thanks.

But as you point out, maybe the question comes down to
QUOTE
what does it really mean to be "equal"?


A big part of me does believe that there needs to be an actual feminist platform. For example, I don't believe an anti-choicer can be a feminist. I believe to really be a feminist you must be pro-choice. However, there are others who disagree.


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
roseviolet
post Oct 29 2007, 08:05 PM
Post #132


Pacifism kicks ass!
***
Posts: 3,064


Lanie beat me to it! smile.gif I think that article perfectly states what feminism means to me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
laniethezany
post Oct 29 2007, 07:36 PM
Post #133


BUSTie
**
Posts: 69
From: K3



kittenb, I'm sure this has probably been posted around these parts before. But given your topic, it bears repeating.

This pretty much sums up my view on this kind of in-fighting. I don't mean that we can't discuss things - for instance, what does it really mean to be "equal"? But for bottom-line basics, it's spot-on.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ananke
post Oct 29 2007, 06:26 PM
Post #134


Hardcore BUSTie
***
Posts: 266


For me it's believing and respecting women, individually AND as a group (which means disbelieving the individual *cough*Coulter*cough* sometimes).

A big component for me is the attitude towards sexual violence, in all its hideous forms. Ranking abuse and survivors and pain by YOUR idea of what happened, rather than their ownership of it. That's the breaker for me.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kittenb
post Oct 29 2007, 06:18 PM
Post #135


There is nothing ironic about Show Choir!
***
Posts: 3,261
From: Chicago


Okay, I chose a slightly smart-ass title for a serious topic. Over the past few years, I have been learning a lot about what it might mean to be a feminist. However, there is no actual rule of what it means to be a feminist. There are feminists who think that you can be anti-choice. There are feminists that think that you can't be a stay-at-home wife/mother. There are feminists who think that you can't be a heterosexual. There are heterosexual feminists who are unwilling to address the issues faced by our lesbian, bi- and transgendered sisters. Can a man be a feminist?
Does the feminist movement need a platform that all feminists should support? Or does the diversity in our beliefs make us stronger? Can someone actually be a "good" or "bad" feminist?

I would also like to talk about where you see the feminist movement going in the next few years/decades/etc.

Thanks!

ETA: Right after I completed this post, I realized that my grammer/spelling in the title was way off. I sent a report to the Lounge Lady or whoever, so I hope it can be fixed to "than you are!" not "that you are." Sorry for my ditziness.


--------------------
In times of destruction, create something.
MHK
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

7 Pages V  « < 5 6 7
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: October 23, 2014 - 07:46 AM