Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Tattoo practicalities
The BUST Lounge > Forums > Absolutely Fad-ulous
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
knorl05
yes tattoo mags are very fascinating i do agree.

thanks for the kudos on my recent tats snow white. however i guess i miscommunicated what they are... they are my sixth and seventh tattoos. no numbers on me. the new ones are actually covering up my previous tattoos on my inner wrists, which were celtic symbols known at the triskele. now i just have straight black bands around my wrists, which i think looks pretty hot even though the color didnt take completely.. i will have to get them redone.
banshee
Apologies if this has been posted before, but this has been a burning issue for me lately...

How many people have had conflicts between their tats and their careers?

I just finished my first semester of grad school (library science), so I'm starting to think more practically about my future career.

I'm craving my first very visible tattoo - it would probably amount to a half sleeve. Trouble is, I'm concerned (and irritated!) that it might interfere with my job prospects (because unfortunately, in the more conventional fields, appearance seems to trump actual ability any day of the week...). There's always the option of wearing long sleeves to work, but that may pose a problem in the dead of summer.

I have two other tattoos that I can easily kept covered up (lower back and left shoulder), I just hate accepting the reality that I will have to "cover up" to keep/get a job.

So I guess my question is - how do you cope with body art policies at work?
snow white
a girl i work w/ wears long sleeves all the time. her arms are pretty well covered w/ tats but they don't seem to hinder her. we work as nurses in a hospital, btw, where they are fairly strict about not "freaking out" any of your patients. if u work in an air conditioned building i don't think it would be that much of a problem. as long u don't get stuck wearing a uniform of short sleeves or something.

i think the most visible i'd get would be the wrist, which u can always cover w/ a watch. but what if u got one on the nape of your neck or behind the ear??? hmm, me thinking out loud again.

knorl, u're tattoos sound sweet, u should post some pics!
knorl05


here's my left wrist, obviously the right one is (just about) exactly the same.

as i've said, the color didnt turn out as vibrant as i would have liked, so in order to make it look good, i photoshopped the pic a little bit. wink.gif

thanks snow white, n*joi.

also banshee, i'm not the best to ask advice about this... i tend to feel if an employer isnt going to accept me for how i look, tattoos included, they're not the type of place i want to work anyway. i'm one who fully believes that assertiveness and ability take precedence over appearance anyday. besides, you've got the law backing you up on that point as well; use your rights to your advantage.
banshee
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Dec 30 2007, 11:22 AM) *


here's my left wrist, obviously the right one is (just about) exactly the same.

as i've said, the color didnt turn out as vibrant as i would have liked, so in order to make it look good, i photoshopped the pic a little bit. wink.gif

thanks snow white, n*joi.

also banshee, i'm not the best to ask advice about this... i tend to feel if an employer isnt going to accept me for how i look, tattoos included, they're not the type of place i want to work anyway. i'm one who fully believes that assertiveness and ability take precedence over appearance anyday. besides, you've got the law backing you up on that point as well; use your rights to your advantage.


i totally agree with you, knorl... in theory anyway. i guess i'm still trying to get a feel for how conservative libraries are in their hiring practices.

i was under the impression that the law doesn't recognize discrimination against body art/piercings. a few weeks back i had googled employment discrimination and found this article:
http://www.bmezine.com/news/guest/20040405.html

the impression that i got from the few articles i read was that the employee or potential employee has little legal recourse if they are fired just on the basis of body art.

i read an article about this lobbying group called TATTOO (Tattooed Against the Thriving Tolerance of Occupational Oppression): http://www.needled.com/blog/entries/tattoo...-on-kmox-radio/

...but i haven't been able to find anything else about them.
likeanyother
I have a "practical" question about tattoos, have any of you gotten a tattoo over a scar? I have two burn scars on my upper arm from one drunk, regrettable night of self-loathing in which I burned myself with a cigarette. I don't like them, and I especially don't like having to explain to people where I got them (the equivalent of getting "I'm an idiot!!" tattooed on my arm, it feels like). Anyway, I was thinking of getting a non-idiotic tattoo over them and I'm just wondering if that would cause any problems? Anyone have any input? Thanks.
knorl05
wow banshee. those articles brought up some great points that i hadnt ever considered. given that i'm not the corporate type, i guess i've not really thought seriously about the implications of my decision to get tatted. at least not after i got my first one, as i felt i had officially assimilated with (my) countercultural beliefs, and with that shift, i've not wanted to deny my beliefs &or strive for acceptance from anyone, especially not an employer. thanks for those links, something to not only consider, but also to advocate for...

although i'm also pretty old school when it comes to tattoos, so i wonder if i even support the idea of tats becoming mainstream.. hmm.

also, likeanyother: i have a friend that had a large birth mark covered up with no problem, and i have heard many people getting scars covered up as well. you should do a search on the internet, or consult with a tattoo artist to get a better idea of what the process would entail..
banshee
knorl,
i understand how tats going mainstream is a little annoying, but i actually feel really enthusiastic about the rise of shows like l.a. and miami ink... i think anything that makes body art more visible will help to chip away at conventional bias against ink. i've also read that as the older, more conservative generations retire, the job market may become more lenient.

it sucks because, to some extent, if you work for a monster corporation (one of the reasons i want to become a librarian - i cannot stand the idea of working for a monster corp) you are at their mercy as far as individual rights go (especially where body art/piercings are involved). i'm willing to dress the part for a job, i just feel that its unreasonable to have an employer rule against you based on what you choose to wear on your skin.

from what i understand, its my understanding that employees of government institutions have more First Amendment protections... whether or not that means a librarian can get away with a half sleeve, however, is still unclear to me.

i'd love to get involved with advocacy against employment discrimination... i only wish that TATTOO had a website.
snow white
london ink is my favorite

likeanyother, i don't think it would be a problem as i've had a tattoo artist offer to cover my scars when i went in for a peircing. i think you should ask the person you want to get a tatto from, you know? i also don't think u should feel obligated into telling ppl the truth over your scars, just make something up. it probably sounds stupid but thats what i do about things other ppl have no bussiness knowing about me.

nice tats, knorl. i've always liked the simplisity of black bands. a friend of mine has them around his arm and i guees he designed them useing some mathmatical eqation.
nickclick
i watched some documentary on TV once about tattoos that included a story of a woman who tattooed over her mascetomy scars. they were absolutely gorgeous. i do agree with snow white, that the source of your scars are nobody's damn business. but this woman's idea was to create something beautiful out of her pain.

still, it seems like something i'd discuss with my doctor first. i'd be most concerned that scar tissue may be sensitive and that tattooing it would be painful!
lilacwine13
This past summer I got an arm tattoo that covered up some scars, and it well well without a hitch. The entire thing hurt, so the scar tissue wasn't an issue there. biggrin.gif I'm planning on getting a half sleeve to cover up the rest of them on that arm. (I'm not sure what to get done on the other arm, though, since there are scars there as well.) If you're really concerned, I'd suggest talking to the tattoo artist; the ones I've met have been really nice and don't want to make it any more painful than it might be.

If anyone asks about the scars I just tell them it's "personal," give them a look, and they usually drop it. I am extremely uncomfortable talking about them, rather embarrassed, and really don't want them to pity me over a phase I went through ten years ago (which has been the case more often than not).
banshee
london ink is my favorite, too, snow. it seems a lot less airbrushed and "hollywood" than the others. and they actually show people in pain... i think miami and l.a. have made tattoos look almost painless. they also discuss more of the artistic side of tattooing.


of course, i'm love with all things british, so i guess i'm a little biased. wink.gif
Owl_Gang_Girl
QUOTE(snow white @ Dec 26 2007, 07:38 PM) *
yay, look what i found! a little late but thats ok.

anyway, i've been thinking about getting a tattoo. ya i do a lot of thinking about getting one and not much else.

so here's my tattoo standards:

~nothing that can't age w/ me (which is the hardest criteria to fill)
~no band logos, fashion logos and car logos, ect...
~must be sophisticated, classy, sexy and original

i really like the tattoos snuggled in behind the ear. i also like the ribcage and inner wrist placements. and ankle and foot. i have a hard time decideing rolleyes.gif

owl gang girl, u have really cute tattoos!


Thank you very much! Everyone is so nice about them here. I'm glad other people enjoy them as much as I do.
Just thought I'd stop by to show off my new ones. Went to Amsterdam with my friend Barry for my birthday which just happens to be new years eve. Had a great time despite bursting in to tears as soon as I heard my Mum's voice on the phone (You wouldn't think I was 21!).
Anyroad before I start a-ramblin' about my holiday I should say I bought myself new tattoos with a very special meaning for my birthday. I'm really pleased and can't wait to add more to my feet. Sorry about the poor quality webcam shots and manky shoes. Enjoy.
Xxx
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h187/gir.../newtattoo2.jpg
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h187/gir.../newtattoo1.jpg
loridk
Ok, so I haven't had time to look through this thread well yet but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I got most of my tattoos young. I still love them and still plan to do more but I sometimes wonder what people think. I'm not really worried that they are judging me but if I'm out with my kids and such and you can't see they, say I'm wearing a sweater, pants and full shoes, do they see me as someone who would have quite a few tattoos? If it's summertime and you can see them all, do they think I'm not the type to be a wife and mom? Do they think I'm up to way more no-good than I usually am?

These are just things I think about. Anyone else?
beck
i like it that people might think i'm up to no good! it's my insurance against getting boring. i work in govt and i like that i look different to most people's idea of what someone in my field would look like - i often get a double take when i go into meetings. but as for looking like a wife/mum, i don't yet have kids but i like to think it would mark me out as a cool parent rather than a cliched yummy mummy (either that or really embarrass my kids haha).
zoya
I don't really think about it very much... something I've found that helps get past the 'perception' barrier is that I have an upper backpiece that was done by a world-class tattoo artist, and it's really stunning art, beautifully and intricately done. When I'm wearing a tank top or something that shows off my back (I forget that it's there all the time, since I can't see it!) it's funny, it seems that accross the board, the most conservative people are the ones who go out of thier way to say "your tattoo is beautiful" So my point is, that I think that you'd be suprised at how many people these days are totally open and fine with it - especially if they "get" that it's art. (hell, I basically paid for fine art to have it done.. it's ART dammit! lol) so that's my .02 cents...
Owl_Gang_Girl
Well being 6ft tall, having one or two or ten piercings and a great big curly mop of black hair I've never really been one to worry about what people think of me. I couldn't blend in to the background in this little city even if I painted myself grey. Everyone has an opinion about my tattoos, clothes, piercings, haircut, shoes, boyfriend, choice of bus route here and they want everyone to know about it so even if I did care I'd have to learn not to pretty fast. I agree with beck though. I like people thinking I'm up to no good. Me and my best mate go as far as to act sus when we see the police just to make them think we're crims (we both have one or two issues with the fuzz and thier attitude). Kids today eh!?
I don't have any kids yet but can't wait to be the tattooed Mum that all the other mums gossip about at the school gates. That being said a good friend of mine is a tattooed mum to be and all the other chicks I know with lil uns are tattooed and have never mentioned anything with regards to other people judging them.
There you go. I'll see 2 cents and raise you 2 pence.
Xx
EllaMinnowPea
I never thought I'd do it, but I have fallen in loooove with tattoos.

If you're thinking about it, I'm not going to try to sway you. It's a really personal decision. I still have people - men especially - come up to me in public places to tell me my tattoo was a mistake. I just sass them right back. (I've read a lot of theory now, and understand that my tattoo is a stereotypically "masculine" tattoo in a stereotypically "masculine" place, and that might be the reason men reprimand me for it more than women. On the other hand, I love rolling up my sleeve to compare my tatt with a guy's - and most of the men I've met with tattoos have loved mine.) I didn't realize my own confidence before I had to defend my ink. And my parents, who were initially shocked by it, have grown to love it. It's very affirming to hear the kinds of people you thought would judge you tell you that they're into it.

Making that kind of decision about your body can be a very positive step toward making your own decisions about... everything. Goodness gracious.

And you need to be prepared with an explanation every time someone asks you about it. If yours is too personal, come up with a good lie. It's also handy to have a few flip remarks to questions like, "What are you going to do about your wedding day?" ("Throw a pirate-themed wedding, obviously.")

My favorite part is hearing strangers' stories. Everyone seems to have an opinion about or secret dream of a specific tattoo.

Anyone got a good stranger story?
sexysandee
I am a tattooed teacher and Ph.D student. I get some looks, but I love my tattoos and I want another one.
So there ya go!!! tongue.gif
lilacwine13
Ella, what are your tattoos of? I've never heard of any being specifically masculine. (No good stranger stories, aside from someone calling my skull tattoo "cute.")

Most people I meet seem to be okay with my tattoos, both in private and professional life. I know I've had a couple guys tell me they think I'm "bad" for getting them, but they are vastly outnumbered by the people who love them, admire the work that went into them and want to hear the meaning behind them. So far I've only had one job where they demanded I cover up any ink, and that was a cashier/ticket taker position where they wanted a "clean-cut" image for their employees, and this was a long time ago when there weren't as many people with tattoos. Everywhere else I've worked they don't care, even when they've been in full view (which happens when it's hot out and I'll sweat to death in pants and long sleeves).

As for parents, I know several who are around my age with tattoos and none seem harmed by them. I think it depends on where you are and who you come in contact with, however. While most of the people here seem fine with tattoos, I'm pretty sure it would be different if this was a small, conservative town instead of a large, college suburb.

My mom has brought up the wedding day issue, she doesn't like my two biggest tattoos (the weird part is she's okay with my two smaller ones). I don't know what I'll do then, a part of me wants to cover them up out of respect for her, but at the same time I like them and my dad seems fine with them.

Of course, a pirate-themed wedding might be a good option too. tongue.gif
Owl_Gang_Girl
I've come across this wedding question before and it leaves me rather confused. I love my tattoos and have paid good money and plan to spend a shed load more before I get married on more. Why would they suddenly be something that I should be ashamed of just because I'm getting wed. I think my Partner would be shocked and confused if I started fussing and trying to cover them up. I suppose I'd be the odd one out since my best friend would have his tattooed legs out in a kilt as would his brother and HIS partner is probably going to be one of my bridesmaids and she has tattoed feet, leg and a half sleeve!
erinjane
I've always thought that too. I love when people make an effort to showcase their tattoo's in wedding photos.
lotusflower85
I currently have three tattoos that are very visible when I dress up for occasions (one on each shoulder and one on the inside of my left ankle), but each of these is something i earned through a big keystone in my life, so I am proud of them.
There are a gajillion photos of weddings, and proms where tattoos and piercings are considered part of the dress on the girls; there are also some good photos of scar cover ups on the website for the bmezine.
I would offer a better link, but i always forget the exact address.
EllaMinnowPea
QUOTE(lilacwine13 @ Jan 10 2008, 05:20 PM) *
Ella, what are your tattoos of? I've never heard of any being specifically masculine. (No good stranger stories, aside from someone calling my skull tattoo "cute.")


I too have a skull tattoo! Skull and crossbones, on my upper arm. I've read that that's a specifically "masculine" place to have a tattoo, since it's not so easily disguisable as an ankle or a wrist (and obviously it's not something flowery, which I guess knocks it out of the "feminine" category). Where do you have your skull, LilacWine?

What's your stranger story?

(I once had an older man approach me at a writing conference. "How's a pretty girl like you end up branded like that?" he asked. "By choice," I said. Later, after he'd had a little time away from me, he came back with a comeback: "Well, we all make bad choices some time, don't we?" As though it was his decision.)
sexysandee
I am going to get a new tattoo this weekend rolleyes.gif
sarasota
QUOTE(sexysandee @ Feb 1 2008, 03:49 PM) *
I am going to get a new tattoo this weekend rolleyes.gif



pictures!! pictures!!
sexysandee
UGH!!! The my tattoo artist was out this weekend so I had to reschedule, I hate this feeling. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas morning.
knorl05
what do you girlies think of tribal tattoo designs. i realize they're kinda played out, but i been checking out a lot of flash websites lately, and some of them look really cool to me. you think enough time has passed since they were hot to bring them back?
knorl05
ella: that fascist prick! arg. funny that he took the time to think about it and then came back with a comment like you even asked for his opinion. dick.
sexysandee
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Feb 5 2008, 01:42 PM) *
what do you girlies think of tribal tattoo designs. i realize they're kinda played out, but i been checking out a lot of flash websites lately, and some of them look really cool to me. you think enough time has passed since they were hot to bring them back?


I personally think that it's whatever you like. The tattoo is going to be with you for the rest of your life and shouldn't be based on a fade.

The only tribal that I wasn't into are the ones that every muscular guy has that goes around their upper arm...they aren't even different designs...
snow white
anyone here design their own tattoo?
sarasota
snowwhite, i have a tattoo i'm about to get that my sister drew, and another one that a friend of mine drew. one is a blackbird, the other a seahorse. i have the designs worked out exactly how i want, i just have to decide where on my body i want to get them rolleyes.gif that is the hardest part for me.

my friend also has designed all her tattoos herself, and so has my boyfiend. i definitely think it is the way to go tongue.gif

why do you ask?
beck
snowwhite for my first i knew the kind of thing I wanted- a sacred heart surrounded by light, and i saw it on a tomb and got a friend to draw it out for me. the second was a really nice chrysanthemum design i saw on a flier, so i took it in and had it drawn up. my cousin has designed all his own, and they look great too.

I would definitely choose that over a flash from a book, but on the other hand, if you have a great tattoo artist then it's an art form in its own right, and they may come up with something really inspired. If I get another i might go in with a concept rather than a picture for them to copy, and see where they take it.

here is some of my tattooist's work http://www.thefamilybusinesstattoo.com/gal.../newgalleryone/
snow white
i'm a little bit of a doodler and i basically want to bring some in to give the tattooist an idea of my style and what i like, i was just courious to see if many other ppl do that. i like the idea of it a little better than picking something out but since i'm not a gifted artist my own drawings only go so far, you know.

beck, both your tats sound pretty awesome, i love that sort of x-tian imagery and also plants and flowers. is your stuff realistic or stylized?
beck
mine are both pretty stylised - just simple outlines - the sacred heart (on my back - tramp stamp!) is black and the flowers (on my left shoulder/arm) are blue. I don't have any pics but I'll try and remember to take some and put them on here. I love all the religious imagery - if I get another, I might get a Virgin of Guadelupe...
snow white
i'm also thinking about a word tattoo but i'm not sure where to put it. anyone have a word, quote or even small poem tattoo?

and...i hope my constant questons aren't too nosey and annoying >,<
zoya
snow_white - I think that the key is to find a tattoo artist that specializes in custom artwork. You don't have to worry about bringing in a completed drawing, because they'll work with you to design something. They can take your drawings and consult with you to refine them into what you want. My tattoo artist won't even do anything that is "flash" (ie: the generic designs that are in the books and on walls of a lot of tattoo studios you see) actually, the studio she's at is 100% custom, there's not any flash on the walls or in books (the only thing on the walls are paintings by the artists!) I'd say that if you want something based on your designs, find a studio / artist like that that specialize in custom. Besides, I think you'll be more happy with what eventually ends up on your body if you have someone work on you who's a true artist than some hack who does tasmanian devils and stuff.. smile.gif

all my tattoos are based on ideas I had, and my tattooist refined them. I have a bunch of different flowers tattooed on me, and I emailed her drawings and photos of flowers, and styles of paintings I liked, to communicate with her not just the actual design I wanted, but also the feel of the coloring of it.. then after some dialogue, she came up with something exactly right!

I have some words on me also.

I think that wherever you feel comfortable with it is where you should put it. Don't rush into a tattoo. Decide exactly where you want it and turn that idea over and over in your head. It's going to be with you forever, so it should be done by an artist you trust, who's work you love, on a place on your body that you can live with and be proud it's there. When I first came up with the idea for my tattoo, I thought I wanted it on my arm. After kind of living with that idea for awhile, I changed the whole thing to my back and now I have an upper back piece -and I'm really happy with it.

I think that that is the biggest mistake that people who are new to getting tattoos make - thinking they have to pick a fully complete design, and not researching tattoo artists to find someone who's art is what they like. Think about it - if you were going to have a dress made, you'd research the designers to find someone who's style you like. If you were getting married and having wedding photos done, you'd research photographers for someone who had the same vision as you for what you wanted and who would work with you. So if you're going to put some art on your body, it's a good idea to do the same as you'd do with them.

anyway, hope that helps, good luck!
snow white
thanks smile.gif
Lindsey
QUOTE(snow white @ Feb 12 2008, 04:32 PM) *
anyone here design their own tattoo?



Snow White,

I told my tattoo artist what I was thinking and told her the colors I wanted in it. I also told her to throw her own pop to it as well. She drew it out and it was perfect. She did what I asked and I loved it. My second tattoo my sister designed. She asked me if I wanted to get tattoos together and begged me to let her design them. I totally trust my sister. I went got it done and didn't even know what I was getting till the tattoo was finished and looked in the mirror. (my first is on my foot and my second is on my lower back to the right) I love what she designed and love my first one as well. Good luck with your tattoo hun!
knorl05
beck: wow. that work is amazing! so detailed and vibrant. nice.
grrrlyouwant
ah ha, i knew we had a tattoo thread somewhere! does anyone have a tattoo that includes the ink that glows under black light? there's a very specific design i want to get, but i'm not sure if it's possible. basically i want a tattoo that looks regular on the surface, but shows hidden details under black light. but i don't know if the black light ink has to be the surface layer in order to glow, or if it can be hidden under other ink. the answer to that will effect how my tattoo has to be designed, so if anyone knows, please clue me in.
avaadore
Ok, I'm not 100% on this, but I think you can get the tattoo done in the colours you want and then they can do the blacklight over it. It will make the colour under it less vibrant though. It would be much easier to get it done with actual coloured u.v. ink (u.v. ink = black light ink) however these are usually slightly...neon-ish.

However I do know this: u.v. ink in a [i]bitch[/] to heal and can lead to infections much easier than normal ink. Same with red and white. Some people are even allergic to the colours.

The best advice I can give you is to find a tattoo parlor that does uv ink tattoo and has good experince with that kind of ink and tell them your idea. Only they can give you truly good input on this.
knorl05
my girls and i are talking about tattooing ourselves.... any busties with experience on that?
sexysandee
I got my third tattoo this weekend. It is 3 James Avery Butterflies.... one larger one and then two smaller ones that are floating above it... they represent my mother, my sister and I... If I ever learn how to post pictures here I will do so. tongue.gif
grrrlyouwant
thanks for the info ava. a friend of mine's going back to see her tattoo artist in a couple of weeks, so i'll tag along and find out what he knows. for now, i'm noticing that my first tat needs touching up a bit, so i'll get that redone when we go. and once it heals up, i'm thinking about adding some uv ink around the edges, just to make it pop. that will be the test run before i get the all-new ink done.
ellievee
knorl, i have a decent amount of experience tattooing myself and others (stick-n-poke and with a machine)...
if you're wondering about something specific i might be able to help...but in general, be safe!
knorl05
ellie: thanks dear! once we discuss it further i'll for sure have more questions i'm sure. i suppose for now what do you think the best method is? my friend was talking about using india ink.... is that the safest?
Miss Deena
Make sure you think long and hard about what you want and where you want it. I made that mistake when I was 18. Not that I dislike my tattoo, more the point now in later life I wish I had put in in a more ah private place. When you walk down the street and everyone stares type.
ellievee
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Mar 18 2008, 03:17 PM) *
ellie: thanks dear! once we discuss it further i'll for sure have more questions i'm sure. i suppose for now what do you think the best method is? my friend was talking about using india ink.... is that the safest?


well, the best method is a tattoo machine, but if you can't get your hands on one (or don't have any experience with one), india ink would be safest, since it's non-toxic. also, if you use a sewing needle/safety pin/etc you have more control (if you're a beginner) with how deep it's going into your skin, and have a less likely chance of tearing yourself up or scarring. but you need a pretty decent pain tolerance, and patience. though stick-n-poke tattoos never look as polished as 'real' ones, there's a certain homemade charm to them, and i like mine! good luck!
sexysandee
QUOTE(ellievee @ Mar 18 2008, 08:12 PM) *
well, the best method is a tattoo machine, but if you can't get your hands on one (or don't have any experience with one), india ink would be safest, since it's non-toxic. also, if you use a sewing needle/safety pin/etc you have more control (if you're a beginner) with how deep it's going into your skin, and have a less likely chance of tearing yourself up or scarring. but you need a pretty decent pain tolerance, and patience. though stick-n-poke tattoos never look as polished as 'real' ones, there's a certain homemade charm to them, and i like mine! good luck!


I would love to see a picture of your tattoo
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.