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moxiegirl
yeah, us enviro folks love inconclusive results...they're more fun (i.e. thought provoking). Hope it all turns out well.

Annoush...what did you do for your birthday? Did Gramma watch not-bob?

We had a ridonkulusly busy weekend here. Friday, both moxieman and i were sick...sinus infections thanks to typhoid mary. Saturday, helped the folks set up for a garage sale, then had a couple's shower for a wedding to attend to. Sunday, errands, father's day dinner at my house. It was actually quite a nice weekend, to be honest. Somewhere, out of nowhere, moxette has started putting 2 words together. "Hi, Papa (my dad)" is by far the one of choice right now.

I'm also walking the very fine line between worried that she has re-gotten the sinus infection and thinking she has a cold. Can I have some plain-old-virus vibes, please? Its incredibly selfish, but I honestly can't miss work this week...we're very short handed due to mandatory training. Feh. And moxieman can't miss either, as he has a set of meetings with VERY top-top level people at his company to discuss the direction of the entire digital department (an ad agency). Crapola.
anoushh
Thanks for the birthday wishes.

Nothing special. I did say I wanted a nap--I'm still recovering from the cold from hell--and I got one. Sometimes it's the simple things... (Not-bob got a very, very mild cold, amazingly, and fortunately.) My brother and sister in law came around for dinner last night and not bob seemed to decide their dog wasn't so scary after all--progress. Plus he loves his aunt and uncle, and vice versa, which is great.

Not-bob and I went to the Farmer's Market, and that was good. He seems to really enjoy it (as long as I time it right.)

Ran into another person from my natural childbirth class--yet another one who'd had a c-section. WTF is wrong with this culture? A 30%+ c section rate (as we have in this community) is not necessary, nor is it ok. Holland has less than 10%,which is much more reasonable. Why do we tolerate/allow this--at the same time we allow children to die from lack of healthcare access?

Have to run as, as usual, a million and one things to do, including taking poor Millie to the vet yet again. Her front paw is so contracted it's at a right angle now. It's a bit of a mystery. Poor kitty.

two word sentences--wow! smile.gif

moxiegirl
Annoush, isn't it funny how our "selfish birthday" desires change once kidlets enter the picture? This year, my parents were awesome and did an over-nighter so we could have a real grown-up dinner (at a 4 course place!) with the BFF's. We all sent both sets of parents (mine and theirs) "thank you" cards b/c it had been a full year since we'd been out w/o the kids. Aside from that, a NAP is the farking perfect birthday gift..a couple of hours of NON-mom time.

So, I am going to extoll the virtues of putting a cranky-pants toddler to bed early. They are MANY. One-cranky pants needed sleep. Two-momma and daddy had dinner, portions and real-live conversation after cranky-pants went to sleep, and we enjoyed all three things with impunity! Ok, so I made three, four and five all one thing. Sue me.

Seriously, moxette has just switched from the infant room to the walkers room, and although she's been transitioning for almost a month, the change in environment and all is a bit of adjustment/overstimulation. Hence, miss cranky-pants. W did avert a full blown tantrum last night, though...I was very proud of that. More or less, I was expecting one each night this week. I must thank her strong desire to watch Blue's Clues while cuddling on the tantrum-aversion front. That, and her love of cheese.

Eta: on the C-section front, from someone who had one. I couldn't agree more with Annoush. Mine was really necessary, but my doctors did not (at all, to the point of absurity, really) rush to it. My practice has a 12-15% c-section rate...the lowest at the hospital i delivered at. At the same time, I suppose my own birth experience has led me to accept the unexpected and know that so long as kidlet and momma make it out safely, its a good birth.
anoushh
See, if I'd been in your situation, with that practice, and I had a c-section, I think that would have made it much more ok for me than if I'd had one in a situation where the rate is something like 35%. In your situation it would be pretty easy to be confident it was the right thing, etc. In other situations, not so much. And the risks are greater for both mama and baby than in a normal birth, so you need to make sure that in the risk-benefit analysis it really balances out as the better option, not just b/c the doc is in a hurry or the hospital is afraid if getting sued, or the medical profession just cannot stand to admit that not everything is pathology that needs to be fixed and maybe women and birth aren't inherently defective and needing to be fixed.

Yeah, I'm so furious about this I'm ranting.

It really pisses me off that this is pushed in the name of "safety"--when it's nonsense, and when 12 year olds die from lack of access to dental care, as just one example recently cited in the NYTimes.

Yeah, it was a pretty great nap. I still have the cold, though it's VERY slowly getting better. It's nearly two weeks now, though.

I can relate to the love of cheese. wink.gif
anoushh
Oh, and Millie's having surgery today (the cat).

But in better news, I've just signed the young man and I up for swim class today. Starts July 2.
anoushh
...and it cost pretty much and entire month's wages....
moxiegirl
ack (((millie and annoush's pocketbook))) Hope she turns out OK. What was wrong with her little paw?
moxiegirl
Hi girls,

I'm in a quandry. Moxette has had this post-nasal drip cough and runny nose *clear* for almost a week now. I am feeling torn between virus and worsening allergies/athsma development. How long would you let this go before calling the dr? Hmmm...
jasmine77
Hi everyone!! Hope everyone is having a wonderful week!

((anoushh and millie)) How everything went okay with surgery! I can relate to how expensive pets can be. Our cat cost us about $500 two months ago when she was sick and we still don't know what was actually wrong with her.

mox- re:virus vs. allergies, I can tell you what I usually tell my patients. A virus generally will last 7- 10 days, so if it's been a week and it's not getting any better or it's getting worse, it may be good ol' allergies.

I have good news to report (for once, it seems)! I was able to go out for dinner and a movie with a friend on my own last night and the Mr. did dinner, bath and bedtime all on his own without any mishaps! yay! A tiny part of me wanted him to have a hard time so he would see that the days aren't all sunshine and roses with an infant but mostly I'm very relieved because now momma may get more free time for herself! (holy run-on sentence, batman!) Anyways, I'm feeling somewhat recharged now. I was having a hardtime feeling like I really wanted my old life back and I'm not cut out for this whole mommy business but now I'm better. Amazing what a couple of hours without a baby can do for you!
moxiegirl
yeah, i think if she has more coughing spells tonight, i'm calling the doc for tomorrow. her teacher says she's in good mood all day at school, so I know she's not SICK, y;a know?

Jas, that's great that the Mr. did the whole evening by himself! Good for BOTH of you! Is his learning curve improving? What other new foods does jaslette have?

Ok, I had a 13 hour work day today, and i'm friggin beat. Time for some reading and Tylenol PM.
anoushh
Oh dear.

Poor Millie has a malignancy and is going to have her leg amputated. She has a very, very good chance at cure with the surgery, but poor thing!*



*Also, another month's wages.

Yay for dinner and a movie, not to mention reading and tylenol!
falljackets
(((anoushh and millie))) a friend of mine had to have her kitty's leg amputated about 8 months ago, also due to a malignancy. kitty is FINE. she is about 12 years old and after about a week and a half, was up and showing off her new tripod status. i'm sure your millie will come through magnificently. sorry about the month's wages, though. that bites.

ok ladies, i guess i've got about two weeks give or take before i can officially call myself a momma!

holy crap!
moxiegirl
where IS everybody? Ok, so we were outside as much as humanly possible this weekend. we went to the local botanical gardens, and moxette has a blast running about. Splashed in a fountain, chased a bunny, hiked a trail. We also figured out she LOVES chili! Woot! I will say, though, that I am so exhausted after our very long day yesterday...ugh. It was well worth it, though.

Hey, jackaroo...COME OUT.

Annoush-is millie home?

How are Tart, and Gren, and jas? Hmmm....?
grenadine
hey mox!

being outside all weekend sounds fun. we just got back from the reunion saturday, had dinner with my dad that night at a totally child-inappropriate upscale yuppie modern restaurant (the bean did ok), and have been frantically prepping for this week's return to work; i'm teaching all online during summer and the internet's down, so i'm on the annoying-but-lifesaving free city web that's being tested in our hood. it has ads and is slow. anyway, on the mama front, i have an ultrasound weds. to determine if the wee lass's brain still looks funny or has resolved its issues, we're re-testing for airborne mold in a month (if there's more than the last test we'll know that it's growing and have to move out again), and the bean is now refusing to poop in the potty, i think because he enjoys the soothing warmth of the bath faucet on his butt (we often wash him off in there after a dirty diaper). also, he can count to five. also, our dryer broke, which is funny because right BEFORE we went away, our washer broke. it's highway robbery getting those things repaired.

sorry about the vet situation, anoushh. on the upside...i'd say it's likely you've seen the last of this problem, and cats are resilient; hopefully she'll adapt well.

hope all the other mamas' weeks are starting well!

anoushh
She's at the vet now for her surgery. She might be home tonight, but more likely tomorrow.

I got all choked up leaving her at the vet this morning.

Not bob is SO close to crawling.

Good luck on the ultrasound front, gren.

And the mold knows what I think of it.
anoushh
Can't wait to hear when the baby FJ arrives!
tart
We're here, but have our hands full, cutting 6 teeth all at once. The resulting snot & drool fountains triggered another round of projectile spewing. He broke 103F on Saturday night. And he stepped on a shard of glass that one of us must have tracked in from the street. Bloody hell. He seemed to peak yesterday afternoon, though, and by bedtime last night was very nearly back to his smiley self... unsure.gif

Work continues to kick my ass, and I'm on the verge of an eBay-based venture, so no time for love, Dr Jones...

>mwah<
CharliNye
QUOTE(anoushh @ Jun 19 2007, 12:07 PM) *
See, if I'd been in your situation, with that practice, and I had a c-section, I think that would have made it much more ok for me than if I'd had one in a situation where the rate is something like 35%. In your situation it would be pretty easy to be confident it was the right thing, etc. In other situations, not so much. And the risks are greater for both mama and baby than in a normal birth, so you need to make sure that in the risk-benefit analysis it really balances out as the better option, not just b/c the doc is in a hurry or the hospital is afraid if getting sued, or the medical profession just cannot stand to admit that not everything is pathology that needs to be fixed and maybe women and birth aren't inherently defective and needing to be fixed.

Yeah, I'm so furious about this I'm ranting.

Annoush, while I respect your opinion on this, with the experience of having to have both my kids C-Section due to an extremely narrow pelvic canal(so much so that my doc actually teases me how I can stand intercourse-which is quite funny to say the least), that those who don't have them don't quite understand them and why they may be necessary.

Yes, it is better for the safety of the mother and child to have a C section if the dr deems it so, rather then try to force the natural childbirth and have either the mother hemmorage(happened to my mother in 1975 with the birth of my brother, he was so big they didn't realize it and she literally "died" on the table, briefly fortunately)or the child get stuck in the birth canal because the mother's pelvis wasn't unfortunately able to fit the child's head through. All these things are possible, and the fact that modern medicine nowadays can catch these issues and possibilities and offer a slightly safer alternative is a damn good thing.

I'm sorry, but natural childbirth ISN"T always best. Many more mothers and children die this way(and they did in spades over the last few centuries) then they do via Csection. C-Sections are much safer now then they ever used to be. Even moreso in the 9 yrs between my two. Granted I refuse to do a third, because while I feel if the one or two are ok, pushing it past three is just too much. Personally I have no desire to get cut open again. The risks that are posted are absolute bullshit. It's a scare tactic to get the ire of women such as yourself. I did some research on this when I was pregnant with my daughter because I was sick and tired of the same old crap being posted in these magazines.

But to go off against them saying that they're not safe or necessary at all when other kids have no healthcare is just strange to me. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Yes there are the nitwits who DO have the C's so that they don't miss the next board meeting but you'd be hard pressed to find that the majority of these statistics are women who fit into that category. Most do not want to go into them just because.

anoushh
Charlie, please go look at my post again. I never said that c-sections are never indicated. Of course they are sometimes, and at those times it's a blessing to have the option of a medical procedure done by competent people in a safe environment.

What I did say is that there is no medical justification for a 30%+ c-section rate in this country. THere are practices that have over 70%. It does a disservice to women, to their children, and to all of our access to medical care. The World Health Organization states a 10-15% c-section rate is medically beneficial and necessary.

Even though c-sections have risen dramatically in the last few decades maternal an infant outcomes have not improved in any measurable way. The US is 21st in the world in infant mortality. There are various reasons for this, but none of the top ten countries have a rate of c-section anything like the US does.

Again, women's bodies and birth are not inherently defective. The mindset of pregnancy care in this country is basically that all birth is abnormal unless proven otherwise. That's not reasonable or healthy for anyone. 30% of women did not die or have horrible consequences in childbirth before routine c-section, in spite of what common belief says. (And in fact much of the death "in childbirth" was infection passed along by doctors at delivery who refused to wash their hands after things like autopsies before delivering babies. In fact, the response by the medical establishment to the discovery that this death rate could be dramatically reduced by simple hygiene procedures was to dismiss the findings and hound the discoverer out of medical practice.

More info here (mostly correct)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis

In the US the response to the fact that midwives had much better maternal and infant outcomes at childbirth than doctors was to essentially destroy the profession of midwifery rather than to learn what the midwives were doing that created those better outcomes.

I'm not questioning your c-section. I wouldn't have any way of knowing the specifics of anyone's situation here, for example, and I wouldn't presume to know. What I do know is that birth in this country is fucked up and we deserve better.


Oh, and routine c-section is not safer for women that routine childbirth. That's why I said there needs to be a risk-benefit analysis that is reasonable, just like with any medical procedure. I can provide you with more information on that if you like, but I don't want to link it here b/c I don't want to needlessly freak out any soon to be mamas who might read it.

I struggled with this a lot when I was pregnant as I was very fearful of a c-section. The way I came to terms with it was to ensure trust in my providers and choose providers with a very low rate of c-section, which meant that if it came to that being recommended, I knew I could believe it was necessary. I didn't want a situation as has happened to so many that I know, the most common of which runs like this:

--Oh, you are a week overdue. (medically that in itself is not dangerous. Other things might be a problem, but due dates in themselves are only an estimate. Anything less than two weeks from the due date w/o evidence of other problems is not a reasonable cause for induction ,yet it happens all the time.)

or

--Oh, the ultrasound shows the baby is too big (late stage ultrasounds are notorious for being very inaccurate in predicting size. Everyone I know this has happened to has gone on to have a baby under 8 lbs)

etc, so

We must induce.

Then, because in fact the baby isn't ready to be born, labor stalls, and/or contractions are so intense with pitocin that an epidural is needed, etc. So labor doesn't progress and then you have a c-section that probably wasn't necessary.

Routine continuous fetal heart monitoring is another cause for a lot of c-sections, in spite of the fact that there is NO medical evidence to support better outcomes than with intermittent fetal heart monitoring.

Anyway, I'm not attacking anyone for having a c-section. I'm saying that we deserve better care, including the confidence of knowing that when your medical provider says "you need a c-section" its really the best option, not because the doctor has been taught that birth is pathological, or he's afraid of getting sued, and so on.

Anyway, my cat lost her leg today. I'm going to bed.
moxiegirl
charlie, at what point in the 2nd pregnancy did you decide against the VBAC? I;m almost certain that I just want another c-section, but I'll discuss it with my docs at my next annual (no, not preggo again, thanks!). I had a disturbingly long and stressful (for me) birth experience with moxette, after a stressful pregnancy. My c-section, honestly, was such a remarkably humane thing to do. After 4 days of induced labor (which was necessary...i had extremely low fluids at week 39-40), i was DONE. The baby, however, was spectacular...she never dropped heart rate or moving. Then, I think of 2 different girlfriends I have who both had probably un-necessary c-sections, and I wonder about why a doc would do a section after 10 hours of inducement only (when the baby is OK), or when someone is at 9 cm dilation and heart rate drops once. THOSE are the ones that get me. And yet, if we have another, I am very serious about NOT wanting the VBAC.

annoush, I agree wholeheartedly with most of what you said. Th "women died b/c doctors didn't wash" argument only really suffices for the 1880s-1920s time period. What about the whole rest of time? Seriously, women were considered second-class because so many DIED in childbirth that investing in girl children wasn't economical, worldwide. Ok, that's just a portion of the second-class history, but its a BIG portion. My dad's auntie, in India, C. 1945, died in childbirth of twins (great people, both), at home, with a midwife, following all of the traditional methods. This wasn't uncommon, and it was enough of a push to get my own grandmother to a hospital to have my dad. This, after she herself had lost 2 babies shortly (like hours) after birth b/c of delivery issues.

I wish medical practices in the US took a more wholeistic approach to childbirth...taking the patient's needs, medical observations and all into account.
anoushh
That's exactly what I mean, mox.

You know from your experience and your knowledge of your doctor and the practice and the information your doctor gave you about the specifics of your pregnancy that what you had done was reasonable and necessary. No one is arguing against all c-sections. And I can completely understand your reasons for not wanting a VBAC. Just as you would not want to be forced to try for one, you wouldn't want to be someone who desperately wanted to try a VBAC and then to be told you can't for reasons that are more to do with fear of lawsuits and unsupported by evidence medical opinions presented as facts, rather than actual medical evidence as to why it's not appropriate. (ANd sometimes it isn't, but often there is no medical reason not to be able to try it.)

And in your case, with the low fluids, that's a perfect example of a valid medical reason. But I cannot count how many times I've heard "but you are a week overdue." That's it. No evidence of any problems like the placenta starting to fail, low fluid levels, etc, just "the calender says..." That's ridiculous "justification" for an induction.
And there are greater risks to a c-section to the baby, mother, and for subsequent pregnancies, just like with any surgical procedure. That's why you have to make sure the benefits outweigh the risks.

Emotional considerations are part of the whole package of care--or at least they should be-- and that includes situations where people will want a c-section because of difficult previous birth experiences, or experiences in their lives have been traumatic and with all the support in the world they can't face trying a vaginal birth. That still doesn't account for a 30% c-section rate.

Many are, and the medical establishment in this country has us pretty well brainwashed. Then, the loudest voices for the alternating point of view can come off as so critical and unrealistic (as well as that's how the medical establishment has always worked at portraying anyone who didn't agree with it) that it can turn people off.

Actually women weren't valued not because they died in childbirth, but because they were sytematically socially undervalued. Some women did die in childbirth, of course (and in fact some women still do) and there are some wonderful, important advances that have been made in medicine in recent years. No one would deny that. But there is no reason why we cannot take these advances and use them in conjunction with some very good practices that are historically in evidence, like continuous labor support, use of anything but the lithotomy position, use of alternative methods of pain control, more support of home birth and midwife care for low risk pregnancies, etc. (which had become standard for doctor's convenience, not for the well being of the mother, in spite of what was claimed at the time. If anyone would have made me lay on my back in labor I would have hunted them down and killed them. Maybe not then, but later, when I was able. It was that uncomfortable.)

It's a fascinating subject, and if you look into it you are likely to be surprised by some of the historical and current facts being very different than we've all assumed and/or led to believe.
(I'm not saying this to imply that no one here knows anything about it. I mean rather that I find the subject very interesting.)


moxiegirl
annoush, I was expecting a kitty-cat update! hehe.

anyway, a socio-economic reason (i was a history major...so i have done some research on the topic) for the undervalue of women is the high rate (proportionality to other life-sustaining activities) of death in childbirth. I'm talking thousands of years worth of socio-economic reasoning. The likelyhood of a daughter reaching enough maturity to care for elderly parents was very low, so all that burden/responsibility/entitlement began to fall to male children. over time, this was of course codified in value/valuation of male vs. female children.
moxiegirl
annoush, I was expecting a kitty-cat update! hehe.

anyway, a socio-economic reason (i was a history major...so i have done some research on the topic) for the undervalue of women is the high rate (proportionality to other life-sustaining activities) of death in childbirth. I'm talking thousands of years worth of socio-economic reasoning. The likelyhood of a daughter reaching enough maturity to care for elderly parents was very low, so all that burden/responsibility/entitlement began to fall to male children. over time, this was of course codified in value/valuation of male vs. female children.
lapis
Hi, I am due with my first child in November and happened upon this discussion. I peak around this thread from time to time in anticipation of being a parent--and maybe i'll come back in a few months with a crazy birth story confliciting with these points (hope not). As far as a c-section discussion goes, I wanted to throw out the idea that c-sectios happen in the US because doctors have less skills and rely on technology more than in the past. For example, the midwives I've met working outside of the hospital vaginally deliver breech births, "overdue kids," twins, and big babies (and VBACs of course)--things many obs would not be comfortable doing. Their hospitalization rate, which may have resulted in c-section, was something like 5 percent. The infant mortality rates among three midwives were 2-4 per 1000+ babies. What I want to say here is that US doctors can be very skilled in dealing with emergencies requiring c-sections (such as cord prolapses) but this middle ground of birth events have migrated into the high-risk category when they don't have to be, under trained hands. It i crazy to me that midwifery has been undemined when if offers some patently safe alternatives for birth...
grenadine
congratulations, lapis!

anoushh, i hope the recovery is the big relief it ought to be.

re: c-sections, two words: britney spears.

(but seriously...elective c-sections are an epidemic of ridiculous proportions that i think has to do with all kinds of things in our society that suck, such as hurry sickness and youth worship -- there's a sense that a c-section isn't going to 'stretch you out' or age you the way vaginal birth will, which has got to be the lamest reason for having a c-section i've ever heard, particularly as, yes, c-sections are much higher-risk than vaginal birth grosso modo.

it's funny; my cousin-in-law, who is a doula, was talking about how c-sections are spoiling the gene pool because they're eliminating the natural selection of women who are able to give natural birth healthily. i don't agree with everything she said (chiefly because it's not as simple as "a woman who has to have a c-section has kids who have to have c-sections"), but i do think it's true that if you consider all the medical interventions that make life possible when it otherwise would not be (and historically has not been), it gives you pause; i wonder what kind of gene pool we'll have in a few thousand years. a lot less hardy of one, that's for sure -- a future that's kind of the opposite of the movie "gattaca," where they selected everyone's genes based on longevity and resistance to diseases. when you think of the possibility that an ever-growing proportion of the population will not be able to survive basic life processes (such as birth-giving), it's a little eerie -- surgical intervention for survival of the race.

of course, as individuals, we choose to live and perpetuate the lives of our loved ones. if my baby were born today (what is it, 27 weeks? i forget) i'd certainly be advocating for as much intervention as necessary to help her survive. but i do think there are times when we go too far (i am skeptical of fertility treatments in general and against post-menopausal women carrying children; there's a reason we go through menopause and fertility declines with age!) -- which plays into another warped societal attitude, that you should be able to have whatever you want (children, for example) even if it's biologically too late, or perpetuate life (terry schiavo's parents, for example) even if it's essentially over. america does have a problem with accepting limitations.)
anoushh
Hi lapis!
Yep to what you said.

Mox, hmmm, I'm sure that was part of it, but I also think that women's child raising responsibilities and the fact that women traditionally left their homes to live with the husband's family, where men stayed with the family was also a huge, huge part of it. I suppose it all gets rather chicken and egg, doesn't it?

Again, I'm not trying to go all "I know more than you do" so I hope it didn't sound that way. IBusties are super-smart people--that's one reason I like it around here. I cannot count all the stuff I've learned here, in so many ways.

Kitty is ok, I"m told. I go to pick her up this afternoon. She spent the night there so she could have extra morphine and observation. I got all tearful when I dropped her off yesterday, and I suspect I will again when I pick her up, sans leg, today.

Ok, baby stuff. Not-bob is 8 months old in a couple of days. Any suggestions for foods that will move him beyond the cereal and applesauce stuff? I'm not in a rush, but I think he's ready for a bit more adventure. I gave him a bit of plain basmati rice the other day and that was fun and tasty, apparently. Suggestions?

Also, he is soooo close to crawling, and my parents house is going to be a fucking nightmare to babyproof. In fact, it won't happen. Their idea is we'll move a few things and other than that it's "no, no, no." I hate that.

So I'm working on baby proofing his room and our room as best I can (hampered by the fact that we have no storage space to put stuff, etc.). He needs someplace he can pretty freely explore.

I'm finding that one of the biggest challenges is just finding the time. He demands sooo much attention that it's hard to get into anything.
On the plus side, he laughs and laughs and laughs these days. I love that.

Re: teeth--6 at once? Wow! We still have no teeth over here.
And I should be working, speaking of work, so I'd better go.
jasmine77
Hi everyone! We had a crazy busy weekend with picnics and parties galore. We had relatives in town yesterday and the lil man got his 6 month shots. 6 months already! Can you believe it?!?!

Ok, so here's my 2 cents on the whole c-section thing. As a medical person and someone who had a c-section, I think they're a good thing. BUT, they are most definitely an overused intervention. I have mixed feelings about my own c: on one hand, I believe I could have pushed for two more days and the babe would not have come out which is what my Ob said when she suggested the c (I pushed for 2 hours and he was crowning but coming down at an angle and would not progress no matter what). on the other hand, surgery was suggested to me as my epidural was running out and I was being hit with the full force of pain and I was tired (see aforementioned 2 hours of pushing). Also, a tiny bit of me realizes that I had my son at 4:47pm on a Friday evening before xmas weekend. Perhaps, my ob wanted to just hurry things up so she could go home to her own kids? (I kinda doubt it though since my ob is Jewish, was on-call for the group anyways, had other preggers ladies to attend also and, plus, I really trust her judgement).

So anyways, to sum up: C-sections are necessary sometimes but not always. I think that we in the medical profession may be a bit too quick to jump to the "easy" method especially if there is any risk of things going wrong and malpractice suits looming. You can't just blame the docs though. If America was a bit less lawsuit happy, I think more Obs would be willing to try to deliver "harder" births naturally. Their malpractice insurance is so high already that one lawsuit could break them and make it so they could never get covered again.

Also, as someone who had a c-section, i think anyone who opts for surgery with their 1st before even trying vaginal birth (unless there is a valid medical reason, of course) is just crazy. The recovery time sucks and I think I would have been up and around a lot quicker with vaginal birth. Granted the worst was over in about a week, I was in some sort of pain for weeks. yuck. I'm hoping for VBAC for the next but the risk of uterine rupture kinda scares the bejeebus out of me, for some strange reason. tongue.gif

Hope everyone is doing well and trying to stay cool in our global warming summer from hell!
anoushh
Millie's home and is very, very quiet, though is eating well. We are doing our best to make her comfortable. She looks so loooong and thin w/o her front leg. I think she's ok, but it's hard to see her that way, and I keep second guessing the decision, even though realistically there was no doubt.

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by this and various other things in my life. Plus, my parents are leaving for two weeks next Wednesday and my mother is leaving for the month of August, basically, so I'm screwed in terms of childcare.

I've had worse days, but I'm not feeling my best, either.

Still would welcome any feeding ideas for the young man.

I'm hoping he'll enjoy the "swimming" class we start on Monday.
moxiegirl
hmmm...how old is not-bob again? moxette's early favorites were: banana, applesauce, mixed veggies, and the mixedgrain cereal. She also LOVES those puffs things. hummus and yougurt were (also still are) big hits.

How's the MOLD, gren?
anoushh
He's 8 months today! Hard to believe.

Cereal, especially rice and mixed grain are ok, fruit is good (but not bananas unless it's in the pre-made baby food with peaches or something else), some mixed veggies are ok, some are like poison if you go by his face. He likes baby food peas but turns his nose up (so to speak) at the organic pureed peas I made for him (which I tasted, and they're nice!). Avocado was probably the worst of all. I don't much care for avocado or banana either, in fact.

We haven't tried him on yogurt, but he did LOVE the tahn we gave him (a drink that is basically watered down yogurt.) Interesting.
moxiegirl
annoush, are you feeding him any jarred baby food? I remember moxette loved the banana/berry mix. She hated squash, but loved sweet potatoe. Oh! That gives me a great idea...i'm gonna make sweet potato french fries this weekend. YUM.

Is not-bob doing any "table" foods yet? little bits of cheese, turkey, pasta? i think we started moxette on that stuff around 9 mos age. I know her doc told us at 9 mos to start eggs, meat and dairy, but we had already done yougurt and cheese. we did primarily jarred baby food until she was about 1 year old, then stopped. Lentil soup, perhaps?
grenadine
happy monday, mamas. just thought i'd swoop in and say hi...i've been really tired lately, but still trying to keep up with you all.

anoushh, the bean loved (and still loves) poached dover sole at that age. i can't think of anything else ground-breaking, though i did give him the healthy times toddler arrowroot cookies...oh, also hard-boiled egg yolk (not the white before age one).
sorry to hear you're losing the live-in care solution...maybe this is a good time to start investigating playgroups, mom's groups, babysitting swap? it is possible, and eight months is a good age.

speaking of age...wow, jas, six months. seems like yesterday he was just born!

not having had a c-section, i wouldn't know about recovery...but i can say that although i dislike being pregnant and my labour sucked, i was able to hike five miles up a mountain less than a week after the birth. actually, i felt better for the few months immediately after the birth than i had for a long time before or since.

the bean is doing weird sleep things lately. yesterday he woke up after an hour of nap screaming and wouldn't go back down for an hour. apparently he woke up, went to the door, and sobbed "mama" ten minutes when he woke up. (i was thinking that i wouldn't be so clearly the favourite once BFing stopped, but i guess it's not true.) this morning he woke up at five. he's been asleep for 40 minutes now and i'm praying he stays that way for at least another hour and twenty...

hope everyone's enjoying july...oh, and happy belated canada day!


moxiegirl
gren---mold? what happened?
anoushh
Is it DEAD?

I hope so.


I forgot to mention we are vegetarians, but even the meaty suggestions are helpful b/c it gives me an idea of what they liked.

Rice is fun, he's decided.

And he went to baby swim this morning for the first time. HE was so tired when he finished that he was asleep in daddy's arms before we got to the house from the car. That never, ever happens. That was one tired boy. He did well, too. A bit apprehensive at first, but once he had a toy to chew on he was happy.

Tomorrow we go back (just the two of us, though--the mister has mondays off so he can come with us then.)

That reminds me, gren--I need to do more follow up on the day care here at work. Glad you reminded me.

I could barely move a week after the birth. It was about 6 weeks before I could sit comfortably, too.

I exercised right up until two days before he was born (the day before if you count walking the dog, which I did every day. I mean water aerobics in terms of other exercise.) I"m slooowly working on getting back to where I was.
grenadine
you're doing better than i, anoushh...i didn't exercise the whole time i was pregnant with the bean or since...except for about three hikes when the bean was under a month old, before i became too sleep-deprived. but i have always been a very fit person, so i'm hoping some of my fitness will survive four years of nonstop baby parenting...

the mold was less but not gone - on the order of 1/30 of what it had been, but still well above acceptable "normal" levels. so we're in limbo. we're re-testing in a few weeks on the theory that if it has increased, that's proof that it IS growing somewhere in the walls and we will have to move out and do intensive construction, but if it remains stable or is less that's some indication that it was just residual mold the cleaning failed to totally eradicate. gah.

meanwhile, back at the ranch, our downstairs neighbour (we have a duplex) is moving out and simultaneously refusing to pay rent (while claiming he already paid "last month's rent," which is false). sigh. i hate being a landlord. we're going to try to rent it out to someone as an office instead, i think, if the mold checks out ok...less drama from 40somethings with anger management problems that way. ugh.

i'm glad notbob got into swimming, anoushh...we need to try it again soon.

i eat very little meat myself and seem to dislike almost all forms of concentrated protein, but i'm grateful the bean likes fish as it's the one low-sodium, nutrient-rich food he can ingest...ah, to be like moxette and able to down grown-up indian food at only 1!
moxiegirl
I think the only ethnic food we haven't tried, that we eat, is thai. THat might be just a bit too much of a kick.

annoush- moxette loves hummus and lentil soup. are you ovo-lacto veg? she LOVES (i.e. devours like a hoover) scrambelled eggs with cheese and bell peppers. you could start not-bob on just the eggs, scrambelled hard, at 9 mos. also, moxette LOVES the "Annies" brand sphagetti-o's and cheese ravioli. Our friends at daycare, who have a daughter just moxette's age, are vegetarian. They did, and do, the other soy-protien products...veggie burgers (great first table food b/c they crumble really well), soy-chicken nuggets, tofu hotdogs. both their girl and moxette were totally rejecting "baby" foods by 11 mos old. even now, if the hummus comes w/o a cracker or pita chip, its a no-go. She also LOVES the frozen "California mix" veggies warmed up with a little parm cheese on top.

Gren, I'm sorry you're in limbo. But, I suppose limbo is slightly better than death-from-mold. How is our wee lassie doing?

Speaking of wee lassies, where is chani? Hmmm?
CharliNye
Annoush-First off, let me apologize for jumping off the handle at you on the C debate. I get a little heated when it comes to that subject, mainly because of reports I read where it feels their primary goal is to terrify even those of us who had to have them, away from them. Which to me could be dangerous. So I get pissy over it sometimes. No offense to you, hope you understand.

Moxie-They have been able(three diff docs over ten years) that I do have this narrow little birth canal and though I have no issue getting pregnant, delivery would be a different and difficult story for me. So they didn't want to attempt a VBAC with Button. I am however not keen on another C section. Two is my limit. I will admit that I think more then two is pushing it safetywise. I can't and don't want to risk my life. I more or less told my husband I'm contemplating getting my tubes tied since I'm terrified now of getting pregnant again. Could be why I find myself avoiding sex like medieval people did the plague.

Ok Baby stuff- Button turns ONE in two weeks. Soo excited. But I'm having a HUGE problem with her last few days. Suddenly she won't go to bed til 9(on the dot too, it's weird) but she's tired and she'll fall asleep around her usual time of after 7:30 but I'll put her down and she'll suddenly start screaming bloody murder. And after that she won't let me put her down at all til she falls asleep in my arms around 9. Then I can put her down and she'll sleep generally pretty good til about 4ish. Then she wakes up for a feeding.

Naps are pretty much the same. She falls asleep with me while bfing and then if I put her down she wakes. If I keep her in my arms she sleeps at least an hour or so. I know she has two teeth coming through, I can see their heads. I can't tell however if there are more.

I don't think it's anything else because she's still in a great mood otherwise. I'm at my wits end though because my nights have vanished in the last week. And my back and arms are in serious pain. Like numbing pain. I don't want to bug the pediatrician with this because my husband thinks it's just a teething thing. I have given her motrin before bed and some nights I didn't. Didn't seem to matter either way, same results. Other thing is, she also hasn't pooped in the last four days. Which isn't unusual for her. She's gone this long before.

I'm going insane.
moxiegirl
charlie- who knows how i'll feel after C#2. Get them tubes tied!

As for the sleep issue, this happened with us at 12 mos with moxette. Its a dependence/independence thing. Have you tried waking her up if she falls asleep b-feeding, then putting her to bed awake, with her lovey? More or less (substitute bottle for boob), that's what we did. And month 12 still blew, sleep wise.
grenadine
wee lassie seems huge and really active. i am wondering if she's going to put in an early appearance (i'm hoping not, because i like the astrology of her late-sept. arrival date, but i realise i have only so much control). meanwhile, we had a follow-up ultrasound and discovered that the borderline unilateral ventriculomegaly (say it three times fast), which means that one of the two main ventricles of her brain is twice the size of the other, is still the same. they are telling me not to worry because both ventricles are still within "normal" limits (barely; one is 9 mm and the other 4, while the average is 7 and oversized is 10), but i think the discrepancy is disturbing. basically, one thing it could mean is that there's some central nervous system issue and/or that the tube that connects the ventricles and keeps all the cerebrospinal fluid circulating (the foramen of monro) is clogged somehow. outcomes for cases like this are uncertain...many turn out normal, others have developmental delays, OR there could be some other associated, undetected problem that makes the outcome worse. a lot of times severe infections cause this type of thing and i'm wondering what that horrible flu (chills, shakes, fever, unable to move for two days, very unusual for me) i had early in the pregnancy was. meanwhile, i'm having another US in the perinatal dept. next week. mainly i want to make them check thoroughly to make sure they see no other "anomalies." it is nerve-wracking, though.

i dread the fourth of july. the other night people were setting off fireworks on our street and it woke the bean up at 11pm. i'm too tired...and it's getting hot, and why do i always manage to be pregnant in july/august?

charlie, can you have your husband tote her around for two hours to save your back? sounds like you can at least fix that part of the issue.

mox, the bean loves thai (not hot, though, just mild), but now he can't eat pad thai because of the peanuts and i'm afraid the rest is probably in peanut oil...so no restaurant adventures for us. i'd try it, though; other than really hot curries, it's pretty baby-friendly stuff!

anoushh
No worries, CharlieNye. I have those kinds of issues too.

I'm still pissed at the letter to Mothering magazine about breastfeeding that said, as I recall

"I'm from Brazil and there you need a doctor's prescription for formula. I've never known anyone who couldn't breast feed (implication--just those who didn't want to.)

Now, I'm a huge advocate of breastfeeding. The whole idea that so many people have that bf is "gross" (that's what breasts are for, you morons), or less good for the baby, or less "scientific" etc drives me bonkers.

But when my partner had to go out at 3:30 am to find formula b/c the baby was crying non stop b/c he's been nursing non sto (to the point that I was in pretty serious pain from cracked nipples b/c he was sucking so hard and so constantly b/c he was starving) and in spite of frequently consulting with the lactation support nurses, doing everything they said, and getting no sleep at all for over 24 hours, after sleeping a grand total of about 7 hours over the previous three days, and still producing essentially no milk at all, I would have been fucking furious if I'd needed to add one more layer of stress to that situation.

And I don't need some smug git to tell me that essentially I probably hadn't tried hard enough.

Just like it's possible to discuss the problem of too many c-sections for all the wrong reasons, it's possible to discuss the problem of too much formula feeding and what to do about it, without assuming that every woman who finds herself in these situations just "didn't try hard enough."

So I can understand being very sensitive about something like this.

Speaking of c-sections, my friend, who I'm very surprised decided to go with a midwife rather than her ob/gyn for prenatal care, is now heading dangerous close to the c-section option, I think. Reason? Basically they've decided she's gotten too fat.

Um, not good enough. Her best friend came within hours of being induced BEFORE her due date b/c she was told the baby was "too big." She went into labor on her own and the baby ended up being barely over 7 lbs. Um, that's not too big. (No, it wasn't that they thought he was too big for her pelvis, it was that they thought he was nearly 10 lbs--per the unrealiable estimates of size in late ultrasound.

She's thinking about changing after going home crying after the last visit. And these are supposedly the enlighted doctors in town.

I'm not anti-medical. I'm still sorry in many ways I didn't follow through and go to medical school myself. But women deserve better than this in their reproductive care.


Is your husband up nights with the baby when she's up? He may think it's "just" teething, but whatever it is if mom is loosing her mind she can't be a good mom, and that's serious, and that's a good reason to talk to the doctor.


Anyway, swimming this morning was a bit more scary. Daddy wasn't there, and someone jumped in the pool next to him and the big splash scared him. But he held on to me tight as long as he needed too and then eventually found a toy he liked and decided to branch out a bit. I just want him to get used to being in the water at this stage.

Gren, that must be so stressful about the US results. I can see both outcomes--nothing to worry about and something to worry about--being possible, but of course you are going to be worried.

And I know what you mean about the fourth. Fuckers.

Mmmmmmmm.....thai food.

(No eating out for us for a while. Not with the vet bill that was over 1.5 times my monthly salary. Millie, however, is recovering steadily and even jumped up on the bed and spent the night with me last night. Very unusual for her, but she purred and seemed happy when I petted her. )



grenadine
anoushh, you're cute when you're mad. and i'm glad millie is on the mend. probably she needs some love after that ordeal!

it's so hard not to be judgmental about the parenting decisions that are important to us. i'm only just now getting to the point where i can see managing it, and i do think barely-restrained judgment is probably just something we all have to deal with, as it's endemic to the situation of worrying about making those decisions for your own kid.

i've never known anyone who couldn't breast feed either, except you. however, that doesn't mean you don't exist. i bet most of y'all have never known a transsexual albino african american midget actor, but i have, and i can tell you, you don't have to have personally experienced something for it to be real. smile.gif


(that said, i do try not to get too upset about the crusaders w/regard to c-section, circumcision, breastfeeding, and other parenting issues about which there is massive misconception/ignorance, as i think they serve an educational purpose.)
anoushh
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's more the attitude that I object to, and that attitude can be found in all kinds of people, like what you were saying about parental competition not long ago.


I'm sympathetic to and proud of the people who work so hard in these areas, the vast majority of which are not smug or horrible, I'm sure.

Smugness is just an unbecoming trait. I mean, what purpose was served by that letter?

In contrast, there was this very brief mention on the Dr. Sears website in response to a mother who was worried about the impact on her child b/c as a breast cancer survivor she couldn't breastfeed:

"Yes, we try to encourage moms to breastfeed by explaining all the benefits, and this often makes it look like were are “anti-formula”. Our main focus is trying to inform a mother who is undecided about breastfeeding, and we realize that this can be discouraging for a mother that can’t. Sorry about this."

I appreciated that "sorry" so much. I don't expect them to mention it in every conversation about breastfeeding, but it was sure nice it was said at least once on the site.

And the US medical "system" is just SOOO fucked up. I"m telling you, universal healthcare is even more wonderful than you can imagine.

Millie pretends she doesn't care about us, except for food, but when times are hard she shows she does care.
I feel so bad for the little thing, though she's doing very well, considering. I almost made my brain explode yesterday trying to figure out how a cat would be able to understand/interpret waking up with no leg all of a sudden.
grenadine
think of it in terms of her waking up with no tumor. i'm sure she knew something was up and probably now senses that the cancer is gone, so it might be a relief!

(ETA: and, having no idea of the facts, it boggles my mind that you and the mr chose to come live here to have your baby rather than staying in the u.k. ... but then, i am constantly trying to find a way to leave.)
anoushh
It was all about missing my dog, who is getting quite old, and needing the support of my family. The move was in the works when I got pregnant, but I don't think there is any way I could have managed, including emotionally, without my family and friends here.

And the UK is a scary place to raise a kid. Binge drinking is seen as normal and I get really fed up with the whole "smokers own public places" attitude. (They've finally passed a ban, but smoking is seen as much more ok there.) And people seem afraid to insist on the most basic courtesies from kids, which leads to a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" kind of thing, it seems.

The health insurance was hard to give up and I did love my job--a job I will never be able to do here, unfortunately. And I miss the newspapers like crazy. Ok, the Guardian and the Independent, not the tabloids, which I hate. And great cheese (though for the most part not available where I lived.)

And again, we lived in Birmingham which sucked. I still love London, though I'm glad I'm not trying to manage a child there.

I find live here much more relaxed. Just going about your business is so much less stressful. I asked the mister if he felt it and he said definitely. He said "it's no wonder you hated it in the UK."

I did love Holland in so many ways. I can't see moving--esp with having to learn a new language (which I'd love to do, but would be hard to do at my age, and my job pretty much requires fluency in the native language as it's really all about the nuances of language) and again we'd have no family support nearby.

But a lovely country and so sensible overall.

Yeah, Millie's not really walked on her foot for almost two months before the surgery, other than very, very briefly for a short time in the middle, so she's had some practice with only three useful legs.
Not-bob's sleep is for shit lately. I suspect it's b/c he's at a transition stage. He can push up on his hands and knees and rock back and forth. Can crawling be far behind?
moxiegirl
So, here's my Friday night:

2 pieces of pizza and olives at gramma's house-rock on
Helping gramma "water" the flowers-rock on
Full on face plant into the driveway resulting in scary goose-egg...not rockin.

Sigh...what's the parent of a rambunctious toddler to do? Call the dr. at 8:30PM on a friday night, get the look-out signs for serious injury, and give some extra bedtime cuddles as motrin gets to workin.

How's everyone else??
anoushh
Poor Moxette!
Is she better this morning?

In some ways I'm dreading the next stages of crawling and then walking as he's such an energetic guy and my parents house is SO unsuitable for a baby. On the other hand I'm hoping like heck he crawls in the next couple of weeks while they are gone so I have an excuse to move a huge amount of crap out of the way.

He's "crawling" backwards, so maybe that's close enough...

He's a serious Mr. Fussy pants, too. I wonder if he senses my frustration at being sole baby carer right now, though I try to not dwell etc.

Also the soon to be crawling/wanting to crawl better and the ever present wonder about teething are in play here, too.

moxiegirl
yeah, she's got a heck of a shiner, but its not serious. war wound, and all. her cold is making her a bit of a crabbycakes, but so goes life. We're off to go find new shoes when she wakes up from her nappynap.
anoushh
As my friend Barbara says, "new shoes make everything better."

Quiet in here. unsure.gif huh.gif

I'm worried about the mister (adjusting to the move) and I feel guilty about "making" him move. I know I didn't, etc.

He does tend to see the worst in things, and feel trapped more than he needs to, but still, he does miss his family, etc.

I'm looking for some more family stuff we can do together as I think that might help.

Oh, and our bouncy chair play thingy broke today. Not good timing. Plus, the person who's supposed to get back to me on the daycare here isn't. That really annoys me.

On the other hand, I found the young man a set of toy keys that are very lifelike for 99cents at Goodwill, and a plastic castle thingy that was supposed ot have shapes and letters that go through the "windows" for 49cents. They were missing, but it still has a cool handle, a door, and some wheels, buzzers, etc, on one side. And he can (and did) put other things in it. He was fascinated. And the keys--score!

Did I say he was sleeping for shit lately? It's even worse. I keep trying to tell myself it's the near crawling that's doing it (if he's the least bit awake he gets up on his hands and knees and rocks. It's like he can't resist. The last couple of nights he's been up until 9:30 each night! Before that he was going to bed at 7:00 or so. So I get no time to myself, it feels like. It's exhausting.

Why couldn't I have had a good sleeper?

Oh well. According to the mister the cat jumped up on his tray of his pushchair and he was DELIGHTED with that.

Speaking of cats, our tripod kitty is doing well. I think now that the shock has worn off I'm doing more grieving, however. I keep feeling genuinely startled when she walks by and I see just the three legs.

It's going to be HOT the next couple of days. I am not happy.

grenadine
don't feel guilty, anoushh. he's a grown man and he chose to move with you. but more to the point, he might not be happy if you were still in birmingham (i agree it's a bit of a...well, not my fave uk city, for sure), either...anyway, you did the unhappy for a while, it sounds like, so there you go. you guys can always move somewhere else later. i moved to be with the mr., which i sometimes rue (i vastly preferred where i was to now), and we're strategising about where to go next...the only thing is that i would really like to be moved before the kids are too old so that they don't get shuffled from school to school (the kids; how funny to say that).

how is everyone's summer going? we found a toddler gym class nearby on mondays that's good so far; i asked the bean if he liked gym and he said "it's fun." and we're going to visit a coop daycare thing later on this week, which i'm excited about because it would be 3 mornings/week of activities for a mere $85 a month (we'd have to be there one of the three mornings, hence the coop factor, but still, it's a great deal and the people sound really nice, and i like the concept better than a daycare where i don't know any of the other parents).

we were at the beach for the weekend enjoying sun and wind and finding a little island park a couple of miles from the house where you can hike through forest to an estuary. the bean loved it. note to self: take him hiking more often. of course i'm starting to feel like a whale, but there you go. 29 weeks today.

plastic keys are great. i can't wait to re-use ours (and then get rid of everything instantly when #2 outgrows them).

mox, hope the lass is healing up. when the bean was about her age i let him take a facedive onto pavement. he had a huge lump on his forehead, which was covered by hair, so i didn't see it immediately....when i did, i was just cringing.
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