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grenadine
i don't actually leave him twice in one day at coop - we go at nine and i stay for a while, then i leave, then i come back and hang out a little (because it's coop and we all work and know each other there's more hanging out/pitching in than at a daycare) and we leave at one. today i'll have been away from him for 3.5 hours or so. and he's only been left there by me twice, since before that i was training (there all day) and then working a shift (we each work one day a week, so it's 1/3 of the time he's there that i'm there). so coop isn't really daycare -- it wouldn't work well for someone who wasn't flexible about leaving other activities. right now i'm at a cafe five blocks away doing course design. yesterday i had to be gone all day at faculty meetings and i'm planning to skip the spate of other meetings coming up next week on the theory that either #2 will be here or will be REALLY on the way.

i did come and breastfeed him when he was in the daycare at my work (he was in half-days two days per week, so he'd be there for 2 hours, i'd BF him, he'd be there for another 2 hours, and i'd pick him up) and i liked it. it gave us more continuity and avoiding pumping while providing a nice ritual (and some high-quality food!).

i think you really have to determine what your personal comfort level and priorities are with childcare and how much time you think it's ok (not feel it's ok! nobody, i'm sure, "feels" okay about it, at least not at first, as mox so aptly points out)/desirable to be apart. my personal priority was to spend the first two years mostly available. i taught part-time his first year, mostly at night when he was sleeping, and had a second job doing database stuff that i could do mostly at home and a third freelance job (which i still do) translating. although it was hard on me -- there's never any "good" time to work when you have a baby, as you always have ten things to do when he/she's asleep -- i personally wouldn't trade it for anything. and it did have the effect of generating some much-needed conversations about distribution of household labour with the mister... smile.gif (ongoing...)

i think pepper just answered the "how do single parents do it" question. they're tired! or in some cases (my sister), the way they do it is they move in with their parents and force their parents to babysit EVERY SINGLE MOTHERLOVIN' DAY while they work part-time and complain about how exhausted they are and REFUSE to put their four-year-old in preschool because they haven't found an appropriate waldorf school that will swear in blood never to allow their kid to eat anything with salt in it. and the result of this is that their parents are exhausted and have no time for their other grandchildren and their siblings despise them. but that's for another thread (i just can't let it go because my long-suffering pushover mom's response to my suggestions that perhaps sis should work on not leaning on HER so much is always, "well, she doesn't have a partner..." as if she's saying "well, she has a congenital disability.."). as if my sister not having a partner has NOTHING do do with her decisions (it was her decision, all THREE times she dumped to dude who was or was willing to be a family with her).

pepper, i appreciate the fact that you show me a single parent who owns her choices. it's so refreshing. seriously. now have a beer.
pepper
x-posted in outrage

are you checking the kafuffle on facebook? they booted a mama for having breastfeeding pics in her profile and are removing others saying that they are obscene! what a bunch of absolute turds! after i write to every one of their advertisers i'm deleting my profile. fuck that noise.

(can you tell i'm pissy? i said the f-word mad.gif )
tart
Ass hats.

Meanwhile, anyone up for roseola? We've got a fine specimen here... poor kid. Luckily, the fever's low & he's not itchy. All we can do is ride it out, apparently. unsure.gif
anoushh
Hey, I just checked the blog of our very own MsP (even if she is scarce around here of late) and baby boy and mama are doing fine. Whoohoo!
moxiegirl
OOOH...roseola...fever with no cause, rash with no itch. There was a flurry of that in moxette class/school in July. Gratefully, she got over it nicely. After the first month or so, we really did decide that the regularity of daycare (to the extent that infants can be regulated...) helped moxette tremendously at home, too. Moxieman and I are really quite routine-based persons, and moxette is too. The schedule she was on at daycare provided a good basis for us to continue at home. Still does. We try to time naps at home around when she naps at school, same thing with meals/snacks. She was 4 mos old when she started daycare. The 7 weeks between returning to work and daycare were "staffed" by my mom and my SIL, who both were anxious to "help." Moxette still thinks her Auntie "A" and Gramma are the most cuddly people she knows.

So, miss thing was a god.damned.pill last night. First (and she was WAY overtired), she bites moxieman as he's getting her in PJs. Great...a time out right before bedtime. We also suspect another tooth is in the works (can see it crowning), so at 3am, when she is crying. quiet. crying. quiet. crying. quiet for an hour in 5 min increments, we finally decided to motrin up. Moxieman goes into her room, and she's playing with her lovies! Stinker. Anyway, after a 1/2 hour of cuddles, she finally zonkes out. Then, proceeds to wake up early (by 1/2 hour) compared to normal, so I'm in a towel, moxieman hsn't gotten up yet, etc. Feh. I'm really hoping this is a tooth, and that she's not thinking that 3am is super-duper fun time. I don't mind the 5am bottle, really. But 3am I gave up months ago. I'm giving her another day or two, then we're back to the PROGRAM. She's plenty old and sure of herself enough to get back to sleep if she's not hurting. Argh.
grenadine
that's the worst -- when they give you hell in the night AND wake up early. because of course you're always secretly thinking that since they were up, they should sleep a little longer and give you the chance to at least breathe -- since you didn't get to rest! sad.gif

speaking of rest, i'm about to kiss it goodbye for a while. not only have i developed the late-preg insomnia, but this baby is getting close. she's a gradual one, not like her brother -- but it's unnerving to be sitting in a coop meeting (or in IKEA, lol, which also happened yesterday since i absolutely had to get hangers and such for the baby's clothes) having contractions, imagining your cervix opening up more and more and the baby coming out right then and there. one of the other coop parents told me my aura looked different (left coast, remember?) and now i am convinced that she can see that the baby is coming RIGHT NOW. however, we did get the bassinet set up in our room (the bean tried to get in and found it annoyingly short), so that's one less thing to deal with. if i can get a couple of bday/wedding presents sent today, i'll be happy.

we thought the bean had roseola once, but it turned out to be part of his series of mold-induced illnesses. but no fun. sorry, tart.

anoushh, who is missP? am i getting prematurely senile?

pepper, that's irrevocably stupid, although i can't say i'm surprised. my first reaction is that it demonstrates how willing americans (the dominant internet culture for most of these online "communities") are to accept others' failings and limitations and how unwilling to investigate what is true rather than what feels unthreatening. i don't do facebook, though, and my myspace/friendster activity is practically nil, so i'll confine myself to general comments.
pepper
the online petition has 14605 members so far. not too shabby.
the discussions are ridiculous. on one hand there are a ton of well spoken, educated, enlightened mamas and a few excellent papas and on the other hand, well... what did i expect. a bunch of knee-jerk reactionary idjits. their arguements are so WEAK but they are so vehement about what little they have to say.
"breastfeeding in public is disgusting." " babies shouldn't be breastfed after they can walk/talk." "women should put a blanket over the baby's head if they are nursing in public." " women should just pump if they have to go out." etc etc. pure unadulterated stupidity for all the world to see. i am embarrassed to be human, surely other creatures are never as moronic as us?
pepper
this is awesome.
moxiegirl
pepper...we try around here to be respectful and not jdgemental of the realities of parenting choices...i chose to bottle feed for serious emotional reasons, anoush didn't produce enough milk, tart chose to supplement to help keep her husband in da loop, etc. THat article, posted in the manner you did, is just harsh and very judgemental to the realities some of us faced. We don't go on about your parenting choice on vaccinations, but rather try to understand it. We all appreciate your really wise discussions on listening to your children, your obvious dedication to parenting, and your passion regarding your own choices. You've pushed me, personally, to research my choices more throughly and remember that my kid is not a cog. At any rate, while I appreciate you, I found this particular post distasteful.
pepper
sorry you feel that way. i think the article was a great commentary on the power of our cultural language with really strong examples to illustrate her points. i am aware that the mamas here do things in many different ways and my post wasn't meant to offend. just to provoke thought. i hope we don't have to avoid discussing things that are controversial, i hope we can actually have some good debates. i love the gushy part of parenting just as much as the next girl but there's nothing wrong with exercising our brains a little, is there?
i would like to hear how the article made you feel, what you think about it, how your opinion differs. it's not meant to incite riot, just stimulate discusssion.

eta. the writer makes a point of saying, at the end of the article if you got that far, that guilting mamas for their choices is the wrong way to go, that supporting is a better path. she isn't criticising mamas who bottle feed, she's talking about our cultural attitudes about things.
i know it tweaks, but that's a good thing i think. to look at the things that rub you the wrong way. like you said, some of the discussion here has led you to research your choices more thoroughly and validate your own view point. i have trouble seeing that as a bad thing.
grenadine
i didn't look at the article until mox posted her response -- believe it or not, i have time (to make time) for you guys, but not for random links. or at least that's how i think of it.

i didn't think the article was condemning or unduly harsh about mothers who don't breastfeed, and i see pepper's points below. i am also hearing moxie say that she does not enjoy being sent unawares to a place she might otherwise choose not to visit.

so...while i also hope we can use our brains (and i know full well that i, too, occasionally am perhaps a bit too insistent on NOT taking ideas personally), i do think that it would be good to post context when you're posting a link so that, for example, if someone knows it's going to be a link to a sensitive subject for her, she can choose not to go there. pepper, i think if you had made clear in your initial post WHY you were interested in the site (i.e. "the power of our cultural language," an interest i share), it would have avoided the possibility of others feeling the link was a judgment.

the other thing is that the "parenting choices" people make are frequently not objective and cannot be explained using logic or universally accepted truths, as much as we would like them to be. i don't think it's fair to ask mox to try to objectively justify her decision not to breastfeed; that decision was based on her individual emotional reactions/situation and not on "the facts." that's a fact of life. asking someone to argue clearly losing side (for example, that there is a nutritional justification for choosing formula, and this is HYPOTHETICAL, people; i'm not suggesting anyone ever HAS argued that) is just unfair. asking someone to discuss her reasons for doing something can be interesting, and i hope we can keep doing it.

however, i think we need to have the wisdom to know that and the kindness to be gentle with each other about it and to realise that the person in question is not using the same criteria/history/knowledge base/priorities that we are.

we also need to have the wisdom and grace (eep, i used the word "grace"! how parochial. it must be the episcopalian upbringing, sorry wink.gif to know when our convictions CAN'T be "explained" productively in discussion and when it is not reasonable to expect other people to endorse, condone, or even understand them. "X should not express harsh judgment of my decisions" is a reasonable expectation. "X should tell me she gets it/understands/supports my decisions," in my opinion, is not.

in each of our worlds, there are parenting choices that other people make that are unthinkable (by which i mean choices that we cannot conceive of ever making for any reason). that's just the way people work; we are all people who care intensely about our parenting and who want to feel our decisions are right, good, justified, best for our children. at the same time, i think we need to allow for the unthinkable in others' lives. i know i've had a lot of practise with that here.

--

in other news, the bean has thrown up two mornings in a row. great timing, eh?

pepper
i litetally ran in here and threw the link up 'cause i was in a hurry and didn't want to forget. and i'm a bit utilitarian about stuff too i guess. i didn't put a "this is about language" title on it because that's how i feel, not how others may feel. i don't want to bias the discussion before it even begins. whatever, we don't have to talk about it. i could post it in the femmy outrage thread instead. i really enjoyed how she chanllenges language and talks about how we verbalize things having such an enormous amount of power over how we see and feel about them.

"asking someone to discuss her reasons for doing something can be interesting, and i hope we can keep doing it."
me too. and i was particularly interested in how the above plays a part in that on a subliminal level. it's tricky to think outside your box but it's like stretching, it hurts but it's ultimately good for you. i've had to stretch my ideas over the years to understand why people make certain choices in their lives. hope i never stop doing that.
grenadine
i understand, and you don't have to bias the discussion (e.g. by saying "it's about language") in order to introduce the discussion (e.g. by saying "this site about breastfeeding and how it's not just "optimal," but NORMAL, is great"). but if you're going to be utilitarian to the point of not even saying "here's a great site about breastfeeding" you might not accomplish your goal of starting an interesting discussion. i, for one, am much more likely to visit a link that has some preface or introduction to spark my interest!


moxiegirl
well, i am sorry if I came off as an overly sentimental person in that post. I do find the writer's admonition to not let/make bottle feeding mothers feel guilty disingenuous, given that the point of the earlier part of the post is that formula feeding is outright, even if not deliberately, bad for a baby. I find the angle of outright superiority of the writing there to be much more off putting than the actual argument. Its the fine line I happen to straddle between liberal elite and practical realist. I know I'm a liberal-college, philosophy major elite person. I just hate anything that makes the presumption of superiority. Especially when it comes to parenting choices. I find it similar to the organic-conventional food debate. Do I buy local apples from a "conventional" orchard in season, or organic ones shipped from across the country? What if I can't afford either? Do I, as a upper-middle class working mom get to feel sorry for the woman who gets motts applesauce at the dollar store?

I do agree that this is a place where we can openly discuss our parenting choices, and the hard dilemmas we face when making those choices. I don't want to shy away from controversy, but I do think that knowing each other, as we do, that the presentation "is the thing." (obscure Hamlet reference for those Liberal effete amongst us). Even prefacing a link with "thought this was cool" as opposed to something very passionate like "awesome" is more even keeled.

shinyx3
with all this conversation about choices and breastfeeding and bottle feeding i have a question. i have not posted here in a while basiclly because i have not had two free hands to type. the reason being . . . lil is colicy. i have stopped breastfeeding altogether so he is on formula only. we started supplementing with the similac organic and have switched to similac sensitive and that seems to be doing a litle better. i am waaaayy low on sleep and am staying at my moms with lil because my floor is getting refinished so we (my family) are all out of the house to stay away from the fumes. my mom has a cold though so she can't take care of lil at all so i am on my own with him. he has not been sleeping more than 15 min at a time all day. so i am hoping tonight will be better because he has got to be tired. last night i pretty much just sat up with him and cried with him. sooo . . . i am looking for suggestions to help my sweet but fussy baby.
kiss_the_fiddler
weak mint tea helped shinyboy when he was colicky and you were down with a migraine.
pepper
but mox, i DID think it was awesome so that's what i said. i loved how she used an extreme to illustrate her point about the power of language. i thought it was brilliant and it certainly made me think about my ideas, where they come from, if they are actually MY thoughts and not just some unexamined assumption on my part. i didn't get that she was attacking bottle feeding moms, i felt that she was messing with the social ideas about breastfeeding and parenting. like how she pointed out that attachment parenting if viewed as the norm would just be called parenting and the alternative called detachment parenting. interesting how i all of a sudden felt about the two just based on the name of it, how it conjures up an emotional response even though nothing at all has changed but what it's being called.

shiny, poor lil. maybe shout out to chacha for a homeopathic remedy? they are inexpensive and harmless so at the very worst nothing will change but maybe it will be just the thing. good luck.
moxiegirl
is breastfeeding necessairly equating to attachment parenting, though? See, now, I'm taking the position that a blog posting and actual article are the same thing, which they aren't, but breastfeeding is normal. Attachment parenting is one effective style. They don't necessarily go together. I know parents who formula feed and attachment parent, and parents who breastfed and couldn't wait to go all Ferber on the kidlet. Anyway, I think that gren's idea about a little more context would have helped dramatically. A good lesson for us all.

Shiny- colic...my greatest fear. Moxette wasn't colicy, although the "organic" formulas did bother her belly. When she was upset with gas, we used the gassy drops (Mycelon?). And at 6-8 weeks, when all babies go through an extra fussy-pants situation, we did regularly drop a couple drops of gripe water into her bottle. My mom (and all my Indian aunties) swear by it for colicy babies...calms the belly and other systems right down. Rosewater, fennel, chamomile, etc. Where is daddy? Shouldn't he be helping? And get your momma a mask and some hand sanitizer!
shinyx3
ok, i just did something totally insane. i have been visiting my mom who lives three hours away from my home. my youngest sis lives in the same town as mom and had two small children. she is going through some difficult times and so my big sis is going to watch her 12 mo old girl (such a cute princess!). older sis lives in the same town as i do, well next town over really by pretty close. (40 min from my house) so as there is trama and drama for youngest sis and she has no car and basicly no resources i volunteered to take said princess back to my town with me and lil to big sis. so, picture this . . . one colicy 6wk old, one scared (she really doesn't have a stable life) 12 mo old and one very sleep deprived mommy all in the car with various baby care items packed in the back and under the seats, setting out on what is usually a 2.75 to 3 hr drive including a stop. it took me 5 hrs. princess had not been given anything to eat when i picked her up so i had to get something before i left. then lil was hungry so i fed and changed him and got him settled. now princess wants food so i give her teething cookies and yogurt which she fussed for but then didn't really want to eat. ok, no force feeding her, we are back on our way. peace and quite for 15 min. just long enough for me to think 'ohmy, this is not nearly as bad as i thought it might be'. then lil wakes up and is fussy. i do the one hand unnaturaly contorted behind the seat to comfort him and keep going driving like this for a little while. he finally drifts off. then princess drifts off, but only to be rudely awakened by the contents of her little tummy emptying itself. i was able to figure out why she didn't want to eat when she vomited all over her self and the car what looked like pizza. (i am guessing littlest sis was out of baby food and pizza was easier than making something more suitable for a 12mo old. aarrrggg!) this is of couse while i am on a two lane highway portion of the drive and just starting to head up and over a pass in the rockies. so i pull over, strip princess, wrap her up to stay warm (it was about 45 degree F out), clean up pizza/milk puke, redress princess, snuggle for a minute to calm her down and back on our way again. stop up the road at the usual pee spot to get plastic bag to help contain the puke smell by wrapping up the clothes. through out dirty diapers and pukey wipes and then back on the road. pretty soon lil is hungry again so i pull off to feed/change him again. hurry him along and then on our way again. big sis met us about 20 miles from our town and just in time as princess was starting to decomp and was no longer being comforted by my talking to her.

so i am home now and have taken off my pukey sweatshirt, used fabreeze on my car, and all i can say is . . . how the hell do people have more than one baby and deal? omg, that was insane.
moxiegirl
well, they either have twins and get used to it fast, or they don't have them 10 mos apart. Gah! you're a great auntie!

OPk, time to stir the veggies.
kiss_the_fiddler
Hi. I'm the big sis afore mentioned by shiny. I don't know how folks do it with one. I'm exhausted!!!! After the hand-off, we had a snuggle before heading home to play in lunch and hose off pizza puke before a screaming fit that finally ended in a nap. Ooof! Princess did eat a little dinner and after quite a fussy evening, she's finally sleeping. I've been told that she gets put to bed with a bottle of milk and that she wakes 3x a night for another bottle each time. Huh? she's 12 months old. Ok. One thing at a time. First settle, then work on the other stuff.

I'm going to sleep while it's quiet. You parent types rock! I don't know how you do it all. I have lots to learn.

fiddler
moxiegirl
fiddler, as a right-away-toddler mama type, feel free to jump in here any time! I've seen you out and about in the other threads...how's all that going? Hope all is well!

So, I'm not sure how to get a toddler settled into a new situation, but my recommendation is for now "do what works." Get some pointers on gentle discipline (setting house rules, regular routine, etc.) and the rest will start to fall into place. How long is princess with you? It sounds like stability is what the lass needs. That, and malox. smile.gif Toddler puke is just gross. Seriously, jump in. We're all here to help each other, despite our disagreements. That's what friends do! An FYI- you know toddlers do Whole milk, right?

So, miss moxette, who all evening was a barely contained ball of toddler chaos (she did remarkably well holding the tantrums in and moving on all evening, really), let it ALL out right.at.bedtime. She did all her "usual" prolonging techniques, and then proceeded to FLIP OUT when I put her down. Not just normal "mama", whine, whine, but full on, category 5 tantrum. We let her cry for 10 min or so, until we realized this was wayyyyy beyond her normal fussy/ability to calm herself. I snuggled/struggled with her for 1/2 hour, between sobbs of "MAMAMAMA" and pointing at her toys, in the dark. I kept her held firmly but gently, and in such tone of voice, "sweetheart, this is bedtime (SOB/CRY), not playtime. We can cuddle (NO!, head on shoulder sobbing) as long as you need, though. Mama is right here". Eventually, I had moxieman come take a turn, and she (still heaving sobs), tried to point at all her stuffie friends, and he SO toed the line! finally, we got her calm enough (45 min of tantrum?) to have another small bottle (the sucking still really does calm her down) and she just went OUT on my shoulder. I held her for a good 20 more minutes until she was really calmly asleep.

OK, so NOW I get the "discipline is love" part. Never once last night did I get exasperated or frustrated or out of whack myself. I just wanted to help my baby do what she knows how to do. And never once did I give in. Neither did Daddy. WE ROCK. Poor moxette was so sad, but, she knew she could be safe letting it all work out in my arms. Family rocks.

Oh, and I've finally reached the NO MORNING BOTTLE breaking point. After last week's antics (which I'm convinced were at least partially control issues for her), I'm done. She can have cuddles, be alone fussy if we're still getting ready in the morning, or get up. We're trying to keep her in bed until 7am, b/c otherwise, she's a beast. So far, fairly good.
moxiegirl
ok, i know i'm double posting...but, anyone else notice gren's notable abscnce since sunday afternoon? Hey, little verana...come out and meet us!!

(hopefully safe and wonderful delivery for gren)
grenadine
alas...i am boring. nothing to report, except that i'm bored to death of waiting! the doc visit yesterday revealed that i am still at 2 cm (same as last week). so who knows, maybe she's staying in until her due date (next monday). of course they started the whole "and you'll want to think about induction..." conversation. i hate that conversation. it's so ridiculous, because they have it with everyone and 90% of the time i'm sure it ends up being unnecessary.

anyway, i've been offline a lot more because the bean has had this flu and i'm trying not to get it and trying to get him healthy and spending more time on that as he's home from the co-op, of course. so much for "establishing him in his independent routine" before the baby comes, sigh.

but thanks for the wishes, mox! i must admit i've been getting a bit downtrodden about it since i am fearful that i'll end up in labour with the flu, sleep-deprived from being up with the bean, and depleted physically. but nothing's happening yet.

oh, and gripe water worked some for us when he was colicky. but mostly just wearing him everywhere in a snugli.
moxiegirl
again, can we all join in the refrain "the best laid plans...". I think that should be some toddler-infant-child anthem.

My co-worker, due in 3 weeks...her husband has the flu/sinus infection. Awesome. She's supposed to be headed to the alternative birthing center, too...no IV, no meds, etc. Hopefully, she won't get sick an need IV. I told her all about "the best laid plans..." and to just get used to it. smile.gif That made her smile, at least.
anoushh
I hope "gets put down with a bottle" doesn't mean the baby has a bottle to herself but rather that mama gives her a bottle. Because of course giving a bottle to the baby will make her teeth rot out in no time.

And just because baby wakes up doesn't mean she needs a bottle--even notbob is a better nighttime sleeper than that. Geez. I don't envy either of you. Poor kid, though. She needs some stability and structure it sounds like.

Ok, there's a lot else I'd like to say but the mister is out with the baby (he's home today--whoohoo!) and I need to take the chance for a shower before they get back.

Oh, and mox--calm and patient the whole time? You do, indeed, rock!

And yeah, that induction talk is nonsense at this stage, without any accompanying medical problems.

sending "no flu" vibes your way, gren.
moxiegirl
yeah, my co-worker's doc said "we;ll talk to you about induction after week 41 is complete." See...give nature time to do its work. Induction isn't something I'd wish on my worst enemy, even if there IS a good reason.
grenadine
my good friend got induced at 38 weeks due to gestational diabetes and it was hell...she ended up wandering the hospital for three days with a pitocin drip in her arm. i was like, uh, no thanks. i don't believe in induction unless there's a very good reason, like YOU WILL DIE. otherwise...most people's due dates aren't that accurate anyway, thanks to the completely mediaeval way they're calculated.

(which is not to say i want to still be pregnant in three weeks. are you listening, small person?)
falljackets
hi all!

finally got the boy down for a little nap, in his CRIB no less! he has been sleeping in his cradle by our bed each night and while he's doing a good job of sleeping pretty consistently between about 10:30pm-4:30am, wake up to nurse, sleep for another three hours, his daily naps are still sort of all over the place. i THOUGHT he was getting himself on a schedule this weekend but then he proved me wrong yesterday. but today, he seems to be back to that schedule... (dare i say it?) anyway, i'm trying to get him used to the crib at least for his daytime naps since he is steadily growing longer and is almost able to stretch from end to end of the cradle (which amazes me because when i look at it, it just looks sooo long!).

several times over the past few days, i've put him to sleep in my arms and lowered him into the cradle or crib and he has startled himself awake. he did that a couple of times just now as i was getting him down, but seems to be sleeping peacefully for the moment. i am practicing attachment parenting (without the sling so far because we can't find one that we're both comfortable with) so my mil and my own mother think maybe he is just spoiled and wants to be held while sleeping. i say BAH on that. little dude is only ten weeks old. he can't be spoiled yet! YET! haha.

so i came in here to say WOW to shiny and fiddler! that is way cool of you to help out with princess while your sis works out her issues. i am sure she will be a happier little miss because of it. i have a hard enough time getting myself together and then getting jackaroo ready to go out - i cannot imagine having a toddler running around at the same time. a girlfriend of mine is going to have her second in november and her first will only be 20 months. i'm sure she can do it, i mean, so many do... but like you all i just have to ask HOW??? anyway, i applaud you both for your support of your family.

and good for you, moxie, for staying cool with moxette. it is SO hard for me even now when jackaroo gets cranky and tired. actually, he does something really funny when he reaches his breaking point: he starts repeating something that sounds like, "NINE, NINE, NINE" over and over. we always joke that he is advanced and is already speaking german while fighting sleep, "NEIN, NEIN, NEIN!". hey, it helps us get through it. actually, when he does it, it makes us feel better - that he is simply tired and that there really isn't more for us to do for him than comfort him until he falls asleep.

my posts here always seem so rambly and all over the place. i guess that's because that's how my brain feels.

i really should be in the shower right now since he is sleeping. this can't last forever.

safe and soon delivery vibes to you, gren!

eta: too late. he just woke up...
moxiegirl
you know, when she's being a pill, i'm not nearly as composed. Last night, though was so much in the "mommy, I NEED you and am very sad" place that my oddles of mom love just spilled out. FJ--what makes what you're doing AP? Just b/c you're home and breastfeeding? I thought there was a whole school of thought for AP that is against cribs, and cradles and ever leaving the kidlet, etc. No? Genuine question... Cause, we don't feel like we attachment parented at all, but I swear moxette did not nap in a crib until she went to daycare. Arms/chest/belly only. and she had a midnight feeding until 11 mos old. And would only tolerate bouncy chair/swing if we were in line-sight. The exersaucer was a big hit, but she was over 4 mos by then...So, wherever you're doing is clearly working for you all!
shinyx3
ok, for what ever reason the goddess of sleep is smiling on me. lil slept for 6hrs last night and then for 4 more after his feed. and i am home so papa got up for the first feed. and even more amazing - no colic! he is a happy clam! maybe he just needed enough time to get the other formula all the way out of his system. i am soooo hoping this is a new trend. i am a new person with so much sleep!

anoushh, sadly "down with a bottle" has been indeed just giving princess a bottle in bed. there are even photos of her as a newborn with the bottle propped up. there are actually many many problem for princess as you can well imagine. there has been an intervention by gramma that has really helped but she really need a full time stable situation. fiddle is great with babies and as ling as little sis will let her stay, i am sure this is the best thing for her.

moxie, i was induced with both mine and it was not bad, but then i have nothing to compare with either so what do i know. with lil, it was for sciatica and planability and with shinyboy it was medically necessary as it was that or section because he was very late and having significant decels in his heart rate.

healthy thoughts and vibes for grenadine and bean.
falljackets
no, it certainly goes far beyond that. we try to follow the eight principles of attachment parenting around here. bottomline is that we basically put his needs first (without sacrificing our own), trying to instill security in hopes that it will help him become more independent as he grows. he is, after all, an infant. he needs us to help him meet his needs now.

honestly, when you look at the ideals, most of us do fall under AP i think. even those that didn't/don't breastfeed, as long as you followed baby's cues.

of course, i still have a ton to learn about it and other theories. ap is just the one that has struck a chord with my naturally occuring tendencies.
grenadine
FJ, that is interesting. i wouldn't have called myself an AP-er, but according to those principles i am actually more of an AP-er than my MIL (who is constantly brandishing copies of "the magical child," slings, and homebirth stories) in the sense of saying no and setting priorities for the family and infant's needs rather than social or external ones.

and thanks for the vibes.

i never could get the hang of the sling. the bean liked his snugli quite well, though. it was one of the first things i hauled out for #2. that and the miracle blanket (oh, shiny, that might help your good sleep trend continue).

mox, perhaps those principles answer your BF questions? it sound to me like breastfeeding is the norm, including comfort nursing, but that if it's not possible there is some allowance for bottle-feeding. although they don't come out and say it, though, it also sounds as though breast vs. bottle is regarded less as a choice (which is how so much medical literature presents it, as the "mother's choice,") -- more like BF, and "extended" (beyond age 1 year) breastfeeding, is the thing to do unless you physically cannot.

certainly the principles are much less exacting/specific than most of the parents i know who would identify themselves as AP. but i suppose if you take them at their word, it's consistent enough.

ETA: speaking of positive discipline, i'm enjoying the book "positive discipline for preschoolers," which has a lot of good concrete reminders about reinforcing positive behavior/avoiding "no" as well as a pretty interesting schematic on "lifestyle priorities" of individuals and how they play into your life as both parent and child. it was helpful for me to identify the mr's and my different "lifestyle priorities" in terms of how we parent (and everything else). but then, i love categorising, as it helps me make sense of things.
moxiegirl
Well, I think our guru Brazelton fits in somewhere between the Ferber, the baby whisperer and the AP method. I.E. we never intended to have moxette sleep in our room/bed. She napped with me on the couch, b/c we both loved it. We did get her on a regular schedule by 4 mos, including the dream feed and she adapted very quickly. She seemed to fit the classic "touchpoints" though...so, Brazelton works very well in our home. The only parenting "philosophy" that really irks me is the over the top on either end...smothering with too much attachment (spoon feeding a 2 yr old...) or the babywise (like, I'm "wise" to some made up antics of a 3 week old!). Our family is all about moderation.

How will going back to work and putting jackaroo in daycare fit in to AP? Honestly, the only AP parent I know has a 20 month old still sleeping in bed with her parents, who doesn't have any set schedule directed by her SAHM, b/c the SAHM thinks that the baby "knows" best.

We did find that eventually (a month or two old?), that she didn't suffer if she cried for a few minutes. LIke, if I was pooping or something. Now, we carry that theory through to other areas...dinner. She can be done when she's done...but if I'm still eating, I'm eating. Babies as early as 7 or 8 months begin understanding limits, and even earlier (3-5 mos) are capable of learning self-soothing techniques. May take months to perfect for the whole family to be happy, but they are wonderful little mental sponges.
grenadine
you know, mox, your experience and mine just illustrates to me how some people use a label like "attachment parenting" as an excuse to be disorganised pushovers...just as some people use a label like "Ferberizing" as an excuse to be neglectful, unresponsive, or cruel!

we did intend to have the bean sleep with us for a while, but he seemed happier not, so he was with us for less than a month and then in his crib. #2 is going in a bassinet in our room until she's sleeping without feeds for at least a good stretch (so as not to wake the bean, whose room she'll be sharing).
moxiegirl
yeah, that's what makes me nervous about a #2...where to put the kiddo. Well, that and not being able to play zone defense! smile.gif
grenadine
i confess that the lack of an extra bedroom really bothers me. i grew up in a house with many bedrooms (i had my own suite, and there were extra rooms to swap out, use, play in, etc...), and the concept of sharing a room is discomforting to me. but the mr did it and claims it didn't hurt him...
i think.
moxiegirl
oh, I shared a room with my sister from age 4 1/2 until age 17. The thing is, b/c my grandpa lived with us, the "baby" slept in my parents room until sleeping though the night happened. My sister got moved a little early b/c she and my brother are less than 2 years apart! Its the infant/toddler part that gets me. Not sharing a room in general.
anoushh
See, mox, I have thought for some time that you are closer to what is called attachment parenting than you think you are.

Yes, breastfeeding is the standard for AP, but it doesn't mean you can't bottle feed and do AP. I think there's nothing wrong with (and plenty right with) acknowledging that as a general rule breastfeeding is best. Nutritionally, emotionally, and otherwise it is far superior.

That doesn't mean--as you and I both know--that there aren't indications for bottle feeding, and not just when you physically can't, like me, or if you are taking certain meds, etc.

If you really feel like you can't handle it emotionally, for whatever reason, and you feel it's the right thing to bottle feed, that's pretty darn important. An emotionally available mother who can contain the overwhelming feelings of the infant (who, as you've so rightly pointed out many times, cannot self-soothe for some time, and even then has to learn how) is WAY more important than breast feeding. And that's not to diminish the value of breastfeeding (which I still feel sad about not being able to do.) But BF isn't magic and it doesn't take the place of appropriate parenting.

(At least you can't do the bottle propping equivalent in BF, though--that's appalling Shiny! Poor kid. As much as I was so exhausted, miserable, and in pain (especially with sitting after the birth) for weeks there was no way I was going to bottle prop. Kids need to be held. Sounds like a change will be good for her.)

Dr Sears is the AP guru in many ways, and he has a nice chapter in his book about bottle feeding. It helped me a lot.

I do get really fed up with the numbers of people who bottle feed because "I'm not a cow" or because they still buy that crap about it being somehow better, ie "more scientific, etc." And the numbers of people who think breastfeeding is something you shouldn't do in public, yet don't blink an eye at the hoards of soft core mens mags all over the place, billboards, ads, etc, etc, etc, is so appalling. (I feel like even saying this is such a cliche, but it's still such a problem.) I don't think we have to shame bottle feeding mothers to acknowledge these problems and work against them, however.

I think gren is right--people call themselves AP sometimes with a very poor understanding about what it means. "Kid led" in terms of needs is not the same as "letting kid do whatever he/she wants." Kids need structure, boundaries, and discipline. That doesn't mean you need to be a jerk about it, but some parents seem to want to believe it's either nazi or no discipline/structure. I happen to think the latter is pretty cruel and potentially abusive, not to mention terrifying for kids. And I've seen the resulting adults that can come from this kind of parenting and it's not pretty for anyone.

To me AP is about acknowledging the incredibly important work of attachment pioneers like John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth and not reproducing mistakes of the past that were supposedly for the infants own good, like not allowing parents to visit kids in hospitals or vice versa, etc--which could be incredibly damaging. (I happen to love this stuff and could go on and on about it, but before your eyes glaze over too much I'll stop there. I also need to get back to work!) It's about respecting these attachment needs.

It's also about understanding things from the infant/child's point of view. A perfect example is the comment that a 10 week old is "spoiled"--which is of course a remarkably stupid, but very common point of view. Yet there are SO many people out there who project adult feelings onto infants.

Attachment is so crucial, and disturbed attachment at a very young age is something that will follow a person around for the rest of his/her life. Even the best treatment for disturbed attachment doesn't undo the pain and suffering that go with it. And some attachment problems are basically untreatable, such as those that lead to psychopathy. So it's pretty major stuff.

Society, in large part, wants to believe the lie that if a kid can't consciously remember and verbalize something painful in their infancy/childhood, it doesn't affect them. And that's a huge lie.

None of this means I don't see some people using the term as an excuse, just the way gren mentions, but of course that's a problem with any philosophy, etc. Some people will always see just what they want to see. But that doesn't mean the principles aren't right for my kid.

(Sleeping is a whole other issue for notbob, however. Kid's just not a good sleeper. I'm nearly green with envy when I read of tiny babies sleeping much better than he does! However, after two or three nights of FREQUENT waking and crying that he could hardly be consoled from--much worse than usual for him--I suddenly had a brainstorm and put him back on the zantac. Fingers crossed but for the last two nights it seems to be getting better. Still kind of pants*, but better and more normal for him.)


*"pants" are what the brits call underpants. It's used as a way of saying something is no good. I don't get to use it much anymore, but I loved that expression. It seemed right here.

anoushh
PS--just read the feeding part of that AP link. It rightly acknowledges the preference for breastfeeding, but it also nicely goes on to discuss the ways you can use breastfeeding behaviours--including no bottle propping!--to promote healthy attachment while bottle feeding. No beating you over the head with it, just stating the facts. I think it's very nicely written.
grenadine
well said, anoushh. and yes, it's interesting how we seem to swing between what i'll call the "draconian fifties orphanage mentality" (scheduled feedings, babies in cots, no attention, formula only, expectation of the infant's "conforming," massive self-righteousness about the whole thing) and the "post-'80s-hippie-dippy-permissive feelgood mentality" (no structure, cosleeping until puberty, total slavery to the infant's whim, emphasis on "instinct" and accepting EVERYTHING, up to and including septicemia, as "unique individual expression," massive self-righteousness about the whole thing).

note, for the record, that the baby boomers were victims of the first and perpetrators of the second. man, we really fucked up with the postwar generation.

i am wondering -- is it a common occurrence for non-breastfeeding mothers to be "shamed"? because in my circles, there's so much emphasis on "honouring anybody's individual choices" that nobody would dare say a peep. and there is still a lot of residual negative judgment about breastfeeding (especially in public, past age one, etc.) that i have encountered in my everyday life, from my father, colleagues, etc. my overall impression is that people in american society in general (of which this board is not a good sample) 1)undervalue breastfeeding, 2)are uncomfortable with breastfeeding, and 3)cannot disassociate breasts and sex or breastfeeding and "being a cow." and that is why (although i agree that, in a vacuum, if you are in such a place that breastfeeding is going to be a negative thing for you or you are not comfortable with it, it may be better overall not to do it, i think it's important to investigate how you got to such a place.) i think it's worth asking those uncomfortable questions, if one has negative feelings about breastfeeding or doesn't want to or has rigid ideas about it, about WHERE those attitudes come from. i certainly had much more anti-breastfeeding and rigid ideas when i started. i was going to "do my duty" for a year and that was going to be it. i wasn't going to be a slave to this bizarre biological function that seemed to me totally contrary to my goals and aptitudes in life.
now that i've experienced breastfeeding, i'm not going to say that it's "spiritually fulfilling blah blah" and i'm not the kind of person who has a "i make milk. what's your superpower" sticker on my car. but i do recognise that the negative associations of those around me had coloured my thinking, and i see how limited and anti-feminist those ideas were!

and i still see breastfeeding mothers being shamed on a regular basis for doing this dirty, uncouth, gauche, obscenely biological thing called nursing their children.
anoushh
We entered the daycare room and notbob took one look and burst into tears.

You can't say he's not using his brain, anyway.
anoushh
And in totally unrelated news, but I'm quite pleased about it so bear with me--OJ Simpson charged with kidnapping, conspiracy, and robbery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7001926.stm

Now, back to babies/kids/mamas/families.
pepper
mox, everything anoush said in that big long post and then what gren said after it. that's what i am thinking of when i say attachment parenting. i've always thought, from your posts, that you follow a lot of it yourself. it's about baby aware parenting for me, and a willingness to change strategies to find something that works right for the family, NOT being stuck in some formula that ends up only looking good on paper.

poor oj. how the mighty have fallen eh? wonder what his parents were like.
kiss_the_fiddler
deep breath. I don't know what to do with the 'too tired to sleep so i'll scream and writhe no matter what you do' thing. Not hungry. Not wet. Not cold. Ugh. It can go on for an hour. Nothing soothes her. She's a dear, don't get me wrong. I'm simply new at this. I know she's all out of sorts and nothing is right in her world right now. Still, it's hard. I'm tired.

fiddler
kiss_the_fiddler
So, I just got off the phone with Princess's mommy. Even more frustrating than the screaming/lack of Princess sleeping thing is that her mommy wants her back on Friday. Just enough time to find a schedule and begin to feed healthy food and whoosh, she's gone. This poor tyke is not going to make it if she goes back to her mommy. I'm happy to parent her but her mommy misses her and she lives several hours away. Since g'ma has been involved, just a couple months ago, Princess has made huge strides in development. Still, she's behind and quite small for her age. I do think she can catch up, if she's not neglected and has the proper care. The screaming I can deal with but gees, give this little one a chance already. Grrr. . . .

fiddler
grenadine
fiddler, i know it sounds drastic, but this sounds like a candidate for child protection services. it's criminal to have a child in such a state of neglect and poor care that she's developmentally behind and throwing up pizza. whether it's actually going to CPS or just discussing the very real possibility thereof with your little sister, it sounds to me like that baby needs an advocate and you might be all she's got.
kiss_the_fiddler
Gren,
Even more sad - we've been to CPS. They simply told little sis to clean her house more often. She knows I'm a social worker and a mandated reporter. You'd be surprised the degree of neglect that the state will allow. Grrr. . .
anoushh
That's pathetic but not terribly surprising.
anoushh
What would happen if you just said "no, she needs to stay with us"?
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