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crinoline
moxie-
That was a wonderful article! I was a part-time nanny for twin girls from the time they were 15 months until they turned four, and their parents were absolutely neurotic about food. The children were only to eat certain things at certain times in certain portions. For example- they may have 1/2cup organic juice diluted with 1 cup water at or before dinner, once the alotment of juice is up, no more than one more cup of water before bed. Only organic fruit may be snacked on, despite the confusing availability of many "snack foods" in the house. I could go on, but it gets complicated and boring.

The problem for me was, they were very smart little girls, and they knew the rules, so they were occasionally able to convince me that they could eat things they were not allowed (like a fig newton). Which got ME in trouble. Their parents apparently checked the trash for wrappers, etc. and confronted me when innapporpriate food was found. It was quite stressful, and I think unneccessary, as I wasn't going to feed them macdonalds or anything, just maybe some fruit snacks.

Actually, those girls entire life was on a strict schedule, they learned english grammar from 1 oclock to 2, then spanish. (no they were not a spanish heritage). It appeared to me that they were being raised as an experiment by their parents. Who were both middle aged doctors (hence the twins-late life fertility treatments). Very sweet girls though, they were a pleasure to care for.

Sorry for the long post, just thought I'd supply the nanny's view of the subject.
farmgirl
As for the food, I pretty much decided that I'd control what they ate until they started pre-school, and then they would eat what was available in someone else's care. I was not going to be a parent whose kids had to eat rice cakes while everyone else had corn chips. Too much work for the care provider, and too isolating for the kid, IMO.

polly, What tart said about the diapers. The "stay dry" lining in disposables supposedly keeps kids from recognizing when they've peed. In my experience, though, tots potty train when they're ready--no matter what type of diaper one uses (and that's from someone who used cloth for all 3 tots--all of whom potty trained at different ages).

Unfortunately, diapers (like feeding, pain management during birth, working or staying home... the list is endless) are another place where mamas are made to feel like they have to justify their choices to themselves and everyone else around them. Those who choose disposable have to convince the skeptics that they're "not really that bad for the environment," and cloth users have to convince folks that "the extra work is worth it." It tends to lead to long lists of sometimes hair-brained "reasons" why one choice is better when, at the end of the day, all that really matters is that the parent knows he or she is making the best choice for his or her family. We have to do what feels right to us as parents, and everyone else's opinions shouldn't matter.

FWIW, I also feel that folks who are CBC shouldn't have to feel like they must justify their choices either, and fully recognize that my CBC friends have put just as much time and energy into researching their choices (often much more!) as I have into mine. They also take just as much unjustified crap for their choices.

This may read as though I'm getting on your case for asking questions. I'm not. I guess this is just a touchy issue for me--having spent the past 8 years justifying my parenting choices to complete strangers on the street. Well, maybe only 6. It was a couple of years ago that I finally decided, "fuck 'em." If they don't like my choices, they can lick my ass.
pollystyrene
I'm not necessarily criticizing her- if she's willing to do the extra work, and it makes her feel better, whether or not the environmental reasons are true or not, then I don't care, but, like you sort of talked about, farmgirl, no matter what your decisions are, there's always going to be someone who disagrees and you're going to feel like you have to justify that to them. To me, this reason seemed like a stretch (like, "okay, the environmental and money reasons are enough, now disposable diapers also affect when the kid potty-trains? Uh huh.")

Also, like you said, tart- yes, she's been reading A LOT of books and other resources. She's doing a home birth, too. ((Sigh)) I don't know how you ladies do it.
farmgirl
Yeah, that "need to justify" is unfortunate. I mean, why is she even talking to you about her diapering choices, you know? Because, really, why would you care? I don't mean that like, you couldn't possibly care because you're not a parent. More, why would anyone need to know what one's planning to use to catch the babe's turds? It's nice to get input when you're still trying to make a decision, and it's great to know that other folks who've made the same choice are happy about it, but once the decision's been made, who cares?

I guess that's why I hated hanging with the Stepford moms so much. Despite the fact that it's all I talk about here, IRL, parenting-related stuff is not among my daily topics of conversation.

And, like tart said, so much of what we believe before the babe comes just flies out the window.
pollystyrene
She wasn't talking to me directly, she posted it on her blog...well, what's actually sadder is that she posted it on this website that her husband, my boyfriend and a couple other friends run where they post their artistic creations. Some of them draw, Le Boy does writing and video stuff. They also talk about video games and role playing games, all that crap.

She was helping with the behind the scenes web design/maintenance stuff, and now she posts on the blog section (that they all share) and she has a whole "baby update" section in the forum. The average age and sex of their audience is 15-year old boys. I REALLY don't get why she posts there- like any of them have a clue or give a damn about her uterus and its contents. She's sort of become like this "Den Mother" to them and I don't doubt the community-ness of the site (not nearly as warm and fuzzy as Bust, of course!) but I kinda feel sorry for her, that this is who she has to talk to about her pregnancy. No one has been rude or anything, they're happy for her, but they don't have a clue.
bustygirl
You've touched on a sideline topic of mine: mainly, that everything women do as parents is suspect by at least 50% of the population, and beyond that, public in a way that men's parenting is not.

Nothing makes you a topic for public discourse like having a kid. Except maybe NOT having a kid.

Dads, it seems, are less visible in this context. If someone has a problem with the way a child is raised, it always reflects on the mother, and people feel free to discuss it in detail, where in other areas of adult life, such scrutiny would seem intrusive.
moxiegirl
One of the reasons I love posting here is b/c i can go mama-crazy and not feel like I'm swallowed up by the mother-on-a-pedastal surburban mythland.

On the diapering front--like the breast-bottle issue, it's really all about what one set (or single) parents feel is the best descision for their family at the time. Being environmentalists, we looked into cloth vs. disposable closely. I work at an env. engineering firm, so I actually got engineering studies on how diapers compact in landfills (alot!) and the energy it takes to make 1 clean cloth diaper vs. impact of 1 disposable diaper. In the pro-con list (environmental side only), the disposables won out. POint is, whatever works for her and her family, is whatever works out.

Moxette's cold seems to have faded...thanks for the vibes. I made her doctor remind me that its better for her to be sick now, than at 3 years old in pre-school...i can control her movement now. Right.

Yesterday, I had the sweetest nappy nap with the bebe in my arms. She was an angelic figure...in overalls. smile.gif It was an absolute "Ah, I'm the MOMMY" moment. Sigh...
tart
Word, Busty. What peeves me is the double-standard - put Tartman on the train with a screaming Tartlet & he gets sympathetic looks & ice-breaking jokes. Put me on there, and it's all patronizing "help" (like the woman who suggested I burp an exhausted & travel-worn Tartlet to calm him down. Yeah. Hadn't thought of that. Gosh thanks)...

The Cold that Wouldn't Die is still rattling around, but in a much subdued state. Farmgirl, I think it was you who recommended California Baby Cold & Flu bath goop - thanks sooo much for the rec! We had a nice warm bath last night, and Tartlet was entranced by the bubbles, hacked up a big glob of snot, crashed hard & slept almost 7 hours solid! We also tried some of those vanilla/eucalyptus shower pucks, just chucked one in the sink with the water running while we did the bath routine - it was certainly stronger smelling, but I don't know that it cleared him out any faster.

We had a really nice weekend - Tartlet's suddenly got the hang of entertaining himself in his babyjail, so Tartman & I got some stuff done that's been lurking around. Tartlet actually seemed fairly entertained by our comings & goings, & got to blow off some steam by thrashing his crinkle book to. death. Seriously, he was like a terrier going after that thing. Weirdo happy.gif He even dug the highchair (no food yet - we were having too much fun playing & suddenly it was bathtime...). AND we got serious nappage. Damn. What the hell. I told Tartman this morning that this is the first Monday in a while that I haven't felt at least a tiny bit ready to go back to work, if only for a bit of me-time.

Yeah, Mox, being a mum is rockin' pretty hard, isn't it? Even when it sucks, it's still a pretty kickass gig.
bustygirl
QUOTE(tart @ Oct 2 2006, 01:51 PM) *

Yeah, Mox, being a mum is rockin' pretty hard, isn't it? Even when it sucks, it's still a pretty kickass gig.


Word.

My son's a hugger. Several times a day he wraps his arms around us and squeezes. Sometimes, he even pats or rubs our back. It's the best feeling in the world. He also waves bye-bye, claps, dances when there's music, and yesterday when I was wiping up spilled milk with napkins he took on and started imitating me. This kid is so wicked smart, it scares me sometimes.
bustygirl
That said, anyone feel guilty when they have a problem with their darling kids?

Like, I know it's normal to be stressed out and tired during the first few years, but it's like saying it out loud makes me a bad mom. Sigh.
moxiegirl
some mornings, i leave the house early. Just cause I need some "me" time. Then again, this morning, it broke my heart (well, inspired envy at least) that I had to go to work. Its hard as hell to get over the feeling that if we don't promote our own children as perfection-personafied, we're not caring moms. The reality is that they are human beings, just small ones. With undeveloped senses of self...they will have and will show, faults just like the rest of us.
tart
I think it goes both ways: either your child is perfection & always sleeps through the night and never had a problem with (insert issue du jour), OR you haven't slept since aught-one, s/he's been teething since week 2, has every allergy known to mankind & never took to a bottle/crib/carseat/whatever. Seems like there's a sick desire for one-upmanship on both ends of the spectrum.

I air my grievances about motherhood freely in certain company, because I think it's important for my childless friends & my family to know that it's not all sunshine & lollipops & that it's work, dammit. On the other hand, I try really, really hard to keep my game face around my husband & Tartlet - sure, I get peevish, but there's little point in harping on about it when there's so much that needs to be covered & when there's Mr Cute-Like-Buttons just asking for a snorgling...
moxiegirl
You know, I try to relate moxette-isms properly to company i keep, too. Moxieman and I are very open when something is right or wrong- we always have been. We're a team in this child-rearing thing...if one of us is fruistrated or overwhelmed...it's tag-team time. Also, our best friend's have a baby 2 mos older than moxette. The joy of having a person I trust completely going through motherhood of an infant with me is a great, great, great thing. It lets me put the "game face" on around non-intimates and just say "the baby is a riot" or "last night was challenging" or what-have you. I'm not a pollyanna by nature, nor am I an eternal complainer. Tart...why don't you just move to the 313 and we can raise our future in-lawed bebe's together? Like in the Old Country? smile.gif
bustygirl
Anyone else have trouble with their libido post-pregnancy? Even after the kid's 1st birthday? Eddie and I used to have a fabulous sex life a priori bambino, and lately I just don't have the desire. I could take it or leave it, which is very frustrating for the grownup Eddie.

It's not that I don't find him attractive, it's just that a valve seems to have shut off in my brain somewhere. For those who've experienced this, how many also had kids that didn't sleep well? And did the libido ever come back?
pepper
busty, see that other thread. guilt is useless, you Know you're doing the best you can and that's a LOT.

girl, not getting any sleep makes for no energy in all departments. can you afford to stop working, stop doing housework, stop all or any of the essentials? nope. so the shag takes the fall my dear. it's so understandable.

you might still be able to find the time and energy for sex, just not sex the way you know it. it has to shift a bit for a while to accomodate what else is up in your life. would you consider a few quickies now and then? take the baby monitor into the bathroom and have a shower together while he's napping or something. you gotta get clean, might as well combine two things in one.
whatever you do just don't pressure yourself or each other 'cause nothing kills romance faster than that.
moxiegirl
Somehow, the baby brought on the opposite for us- a really renewed sense of pleasure in sex. Granted, its not nearly as often as pre-bambina, but its WAY better. I think its the deliberate-ness of the act. Now, its never "eh, can I catch you later?" If we have sex, its b/c both of us are READY and NEEDY. LIke I've said elsewhere, I'll take quality over quantity anyday.

That being said, moxette does sleep very soundly once she goes down. We also have 2 sets of grandparents who clamor for alone time with her. We take those opportunities seriously. I think if you're both worn down (big eddie does a lot too, right? RIght?), and time becomes a pressure point, yeah, the libido would go bye-bye.

Another thing, is I made a serious point of getting exactly the same kind of BC after the baby as I had before. I didn't need any unknown hormonal shifts from the drugs in addition to the pregnancy stuff. Maybe its your bc affecting you, too?

Is there anyone who could watch little eddie for a weekend? It really did take us taking a weekend away to jumpstart things. Good luck!
tart
I'm in your camp, Busty - we had delightful portions before I got knocked up, but by about my 7th month, my libido totally shut down, and I've not seen hide nor hair of it since. We've hooked up once in over 9 months. Fucking sad. But it's just like you said - the valve got shut off. I think nice sexy thoughts from time to time, I still find Tartman's butt irresistable... I just can't make with the followthrough.

Tartlet sleeps really well, so I can't blame it on that so much - I honestly think it's somehow connected (at this point, anyway) to breastfeeding. I've got a warm body very intimately connected to me several times a day, whether I'm in the mood or not - I think I just get burned out with the touchyfeely. Tartman & I have had this conversation, and he assures me he's not rotting off at the balls, but still. A girl likes to feel like she could throw down, you know? At this point, all I do in the bedroom is fold some laundry & go to sleep.

I'm requesitioning your pep talk, Pepper - good advice we all need to hear. Thanks...

(and for the record, Tiny T didn't wake up for his night bottle until 1:30 in the morning! Usually it's 10:30, like clockwork, so this is a major step. 'Course, that meant Tartman fell asleep on the couch for 3 hours, waiting to feed him, but he didn't seem to mind...)
noof
Busty and Tart, count me in on the no-libido thing, and Noofling will be three in December! blink.gif In all fairness, there has been a lot of other stuff going on in my life that could be contributing to the libido crash.
bustygirl
I have a question for the co-sleeping parents.

At what age were you able to put your child in her or his bed for the whole night (most the majority of it, at least)? Did it happen after talking was mastered somewhat by your child, or was it earlier?

After it happened, how often did the child still want to sleep with you and how did you handle it?
tart
We're co-sleeping about a third of the time, Bustygirl, but are still in very early days, so I'll give you some anecdotal feedback from our neighbors, instead:

Isa co-slept in her folks' bed til she was about 2, then moved into a sidecar, where she stayed til she was nearly 6. The transition to a "real" bed was tough, I think because J & S waited til they were desperate for change & Isa felt rushed into it all at once. In the end, Isa kept the room, got a twin bed, & J & S moved their queen into the other bedroom. 6 months later, S still squeezes into Isa's bed some nights just to get everyone some sleep. (How do I know all this? It's an intimate 3-flat...)

Sort of the extreme end of the spectrum, but it was helpful for us to hear at least one family's approach & better define our stance on things...

(For what it's worth, Tartlet starts in his crib at 7, and I bring him in with us anywhere from 2-5am, depending on when he wakes up. I could nurse him on the couch & put him back in his crib, but this way I get to snooze, & more often than not he goes right back to sleep after a quick top-up...)

Aaaand, ladies, we have almost-crawling. Up on all fours, rockin' his butt off, and somehow shunting himself backwards when I'm not looking. Egads. I'm fucked.
pepper
we moved right before little turned 2 and i started putting him in his bed pretty soon after that. he cried like a little devil, really wailing (my poor neighbours) but i would go in now and then to let him know that he was ok but had to stay in his bed. i was always right in the next room doing the washing up, he could hear me and boy, could i Hear him. whew. this actually went on for months even though "they" say that it should even out after a week or two. he was a particularly wilfull and stubborn baby.
he still crept into my bed in the middle of the night for at least the next 2 years but so long as i got some alone time in bed to sleep i was ok. that early part of the evening spent in deep, uninterupted sleep makes SO much difference.
now he sleeps in his own room almost every night but i wake up to his warm little snuggle-puss self now and then.
the key is in preserverance. he got the message that this was how it was going to be only because i was Unwavering in the routine. if he woke up before the middle of the night and came to my room i put him back in his own bed, avec screaming of course. i NEEDED to get more sleep that i was getting, it was burning me out.
now he's a great sleeper, i think it was a good course of action in the end but you gotta be so tough. it's hard to listen to your kid yelling in the middle of the night for any reason, for their own good or not.

good luck.
moxiegirl
Its SOO hard...moxette has started the teething process, and the poor girl moans and whines in her sleep. If I thought for a second that bringing her into bed with us would help, i'd do it in a heartbeat. She's been a crib sleeper since about 2 weeks old, though, so its her comfy, safe space.

Speaking of the teething...anyone have good remedies beyond motrin and teething rings? especially for the pre-bedtime timeframe? On the plus side, 6 mos has broigh SITING and not crawling! She wants to, but hasn't figured out the butt-up part yet! Phew...
tart
Poor MoxieBaby! Teething sucks, end of story. We give Tartlet Hylands teething tablets - homeopathic, insta-dissolve tabs. I'm not saying they're a magic bullet, but they do seem to help, especially when he's wound up & cranky. We get them at Osco/Walgreens.

So Tartman's suddenly all "let's get rid of the late-night feeding" - Tartlet goes to bed like clockwork at 7, Tartman gives him a bottle when he wakes up, usually around 11, and back to sleep he goes. Most nights I don't hear from him again til at least 3, and lately it's closer to 5am. I asked Tartman if the late-nighters were bumming him out that much, and he said no, but it just seemed like we should be cutting them out by now. Feh. 'Cause if we don't cut them out now he'll be 15 & still needing a midnight bottle. /sarcasm

I hate this second-guessing we go through about feeding & sleeping - there's mostly dads in Tartman's department, and he gets lots of advice, helpful & otherwise, from his co-workers. I appreciate their input, but my take is, if it ain't broke, don't go messing with it! If we were at 12 months & having this discussion, that'd be one thing, but at 6 I feel like we should be grateful for the excellent sleeping & eating patterns we already have & not try to push things for the sake of pushing them.

Oy.
moxiegirl
yeah, we're toying with the idea of dropping the night-feeds...but neither of us are comfortable doing it when she's already wound up. We've decidedt that moxieman, who does the 11:30 feed, can cut/wean/whatever when he feels she's ready...he's the middle of the night expert. I just keep trying to remember farmgirl's theory: whatever gets the most people the most sleep...do. That said, i'm off work today, and miss moxette is naping like a princess! Phew. She is probably playing a little catch up, which is fine by me.
pepper
the teething passes, they don't remember it so keep in mind that motrin is mostly to make mom and dad feel better. babies cry, it's nearly their only means of out-loud communication and it seems so terrible to us but it's not really that horrible to them. gah, my little cried like nobody's business, so much and so LOUD. i tried so hard to figure out how to make things easier for him but nothing really does that except for time. it will pass, don't let it eat you up.
the late night feeding, if a wee one is up and hungry what else are you going to do? i wouldn't expect to be made to go back to sleep if my belly was rumbly. dang, i'd want a snack already.
bustygirl
I am at my wit's end. I fervently believe in not letting the kid CIO, but I don't think I can take much more.

My son is 14 months old. He's slept over 5 hours at a time maybe 5 nights in that time. He ranges from waking every 1-2 hours to waking every 3-4. I don't sleep well at the best of times, and the stress from these frequent wakings is starting to impact my ability to sleep at all. For an example, it's now 5:16 in the morning here. I've slept for about an hour. I've had to take sleeping pills on the nights that my husband watches the baby to get to sleep, and even then they don't always work.

Before the usual list of remedies is handed out, let me say this: I've tried: solid meals before bed, more naps, less naps, earlier bedtimes, rocking to sleep, rice cereal in the formula, taking a drive, reading, no TV before bed, a white noise machine, co-sleeping, a nightlight, lullabies, 'sleeping' music for baby played at low volume, a warmer house, a cooler house, a baby swing, a baby rocker that vibrates, baby massage, and rocking in arms, anbusol for teething, soy, gas drops, and baby ibuprofen for teething.

I've tried the CIO methods three times, with disastrous results: the first time, he shrieked nonstop for an hour. The second time, he shrieked nonstop for an hour and a half. This last time, I tried to compromise and stay in the room with him and just wait it out. After 2.5 hours of watching him throw himself at the bars of his crib, I gave up.

My husband works nights, 4 nights a week. I have a small business that is suffering because I'm not able to sleep enough. We both have to have these jobs, because we can't afford not to work, and we can't afford regular day care. Switching jobs is not an option for either of us.(and really, who is it an option for?) My mother and mother-in-law help out a little, but no one wants to help at night because the kid is so bad at sleeping.

Our pediatrician, which is the best one we have access to, says CIO, but I don't think he knows what that entails for us. Is he right? Is that what this kid is going to take to get himself to sleep? This can't be normal. What can I do short of giving the kid Robitussin, because I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
moxiegirl
busty- my heart goes out to you. When we broached the subject (obviously at a MUCH younget age-9 weeks) with our ped, he basically said CIO, too. It was horrifying for a night or two, honestly. Then, she somehow figured it out. Obviously, at that age, we still fed her in the nighttime, and if she woke up, cuddles all around. Now, though, at 6 mos, when she wakes, 9 out of 10 times she's back asleep before we even can get to check on her. When she's not, she gets 2-3 minutes of cuddles, then back down with her blankie (a must!) and music box (a must!). If that doesn't work, we try again after a few minutes. A little less interaction each time. Once we're assured she's just pissed, not hungry or gassy or otherwise, WE tough-it-out. She's always happy and cheery in the morning, reaching up for kisses.

One thing that helped us tremendously was the strict-strict adherence to a night-time routine. IF we deviate from it even a little, we're in for a rough night. This, of course, assumes she's not sick, teething or gassy...
tart
Big, big, BIG hugs to you, Busty... I've been browsing through the past weeks' posts, and I'm worried about you, dear. I wish I lived closer - I'd take your wee one out for the afternoon so you could get some sleep...

I don't have any magic tricks to offer, but I will second Moxie's devotion to the bedtime routine - after a month, all I have to do is put on The Girl from Ipanema & Tartlet starts rubbing his face in anticipation... (What? You guys don't play your babies jazz? Like I'm gonna listen to Ravi/Ralph/gooey lullabies every night.)

I noticed a marked improvement in his sleeping when we put him in daycare & he was around other kids all day - he gets to thrash around and play on the floor and squawk and generally wear himself out. By the time I pick him up, he's about done, and more often than not falls asleep barely a block into our walk home. An hour of playtime with us in the evening & he's more than ready to go down for the count. So maybe there's a free playgroup in your area that you or the Mr could take your boy-o (Eddie, right?) to for a day or two a week & see if that wears him down.

The biggest advice I can give, though, is to try to let go a little & not dread the wake-ups. I know they suck and every wake-up is an hour or more of sleep lost, but stressing about it only makes you more wound up, which keeps you awake &, I'm convinced, the babe as well. They know when you're on edge & trying to pull away, and they cling that much tighter. I don't buy that waking in the night is just bad habit - sometimes, it's the babe sensing that something's not right.

It's very touchy-feely & assumes more financial flexibility than most of us have, but Dr Sears' baby book was really helpful in getting me to de-stress about sleep, and about most other angles of parenting. It sounds like you've tried most of his remedies, but it might help you find some new ways to cope emotionally, at least. Or you could chuck it out the window when you're feeling particularly fried - it's good & thick, and would make a satisfying thump on landing...

(((Busty)))

zzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZsleepyvibes for the Busty householdZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
noof
Busty, I don't want to sound like a doom-sayer, but waking every 3-4 hours in a 14-month-old does not sound normal to me (although "normal" is a pretty elastic term once one becomes a parent!). Have you had him checked out by a paediatrician?
mandolyn
*delurks*

i know you said you've spoken to your pediatrician, but you haven't said whether you like and/or trust him/her, busty. is there another doctor - either in the same practise or elsewhere - whom you can consult with? just for a second opinion? it sure as hell sounds like you've tried everything.

and just off the top of my head, maybe trying to get him acclimated to staying with others, without you, might be the ticket. is there maybe a morning or afternoon daycare he can go to, just for a few hours, once or twice a week? if it's seperation anxiety, or not enough social stimulation, that might help. an afternoon sitch especially may help tire him out a bit. not to mention the world of good it would do you. might be well worth the money.

just a thought. i'm probably talking out of my ass here. i too wish i could help you, live, in person.
(((busty & the eddies)))

tart, now i've got The Girl from Ipanema in my head. thanks alot! tongue.gif

*relurks*
tart
Rough night last night - I ended up bringing Tartlet to bed with us at 10, rather than keep up with the wake-yell-fuss-snooze-wake cycle. I'm thinking it's major milestone waking, as Tartlet's rocking on all fours and mastering some new grips. Yesterday he suddenly started with the babbling - abwabwabwa & the like. Just about wrecked me this morning, on all fours right up in my face going ababababa & trying to suction onto my face...

How are you doing, Busty? And all my other luzadies?
moxiegirl
tart- honey, I hear you. I think your night stretched into our day. Development (sitting on our end)+ teething + the cold-that-never-ends= piss poor napper girl. It was a day full of tag-team baby management. I did manage to illicit a belly laugh outta the little-un though. That makes the rest worthwhile.

Hey, about the Hylands tablets...are they a choking hazard? how fast do they dissolve?
bustygirl
I trust our ped, just not on this topic. I'm not a CIO-er, I'm just not.

Thanx for all the kind words, we're over a bad hump, I think. We've started laying down with him for naps and sleeps, and he falls asleep faster and goes to sleep deeper. Plus, I find my insomnia has lessened, so it may be a PMS related thingie. Now he's waking around 3-4 times a night, and going back down much more easily.

We just have to settle with ourselves the fact that he simply isn't going to be one of those good sleepers. Maybe it'll come with age, but that remains to be seen. He's good with a lot of other things, though, so once I've had a few nights rest, I can count my blessings.

We just have to hang on and get through the first few years. My sister didn't sleep through the night until she was 2. I just have to stop posting when I'm sleep deprived. wink.gif

moxie-what are hylands tablets?
moxiegirl
busty, as moxette was whining most of the night last night (darn teeth!), i was thinking about you. We've thought long and hard about the CIO thing- i guess the best we've come up with is that we're OK with Fussing-it-out (or, whining, in this case), but CRYING is a "I NEED MOM" or DAD moment. I think fussing helps her figure her world out a bit, but crying is definitly something we need to attend to right away. How is lil'eddie with other areas that are "discipline" centric? Moxette is so little, that this is purely a guess on my part, but we've tried setting up sleep as a "discipline", read- structured, activity. I hope, that as she gets older, other areas (reading time, play time, don't run in the street anytime) will be more areas where we can implement "discipline."

Where do we think sleep fits on the discipline scale?
tart
*mwah* You're a great mama, Busty - nothing like a few hours' sleep to help us see the good bits, eh? We're non-CIO, too, so I hear you. (no judgement implied of any CIO mamas in the house...) ETA: "Fuss-it-out" is a whole other ballgame, in our book, and one we are beginning to implement. We have a 30-second rule at night now, and more often than not it's a howl or two, a snuffle, and back to sleep he goes.

Speaking of, the crazy waking was thankfully confined to Saturday night - last night was like clockwork, save an attack of the farts post-midnight-bottle (stinky monkey)... I think all the socializing yesterday helped - he went to church with Tartman, then visited friends who have a very social 6-year-old & met Turbo for a late lunch (with beer for Mama - hot damn!).

Hylands are homeopathic teething tablets that dissolve very quickly in the mouth - Mox, I usually just tuck them one at a time into Tartlet's cheek. When he was tiny, I dissolved them in a few drops of water, but now he's so drooly they're paste in a matter of seconds. We use them fairly indiscriminantly, whenever Tiny T is looking extra drooly or is extra cranky - they have chamomile & traces of caffiene, which oddly tends to help him calm down. He knows the bottle now & all but lunges for my fingers when I go to dose him up, so they're obviously pleasant in one way or another...

So... solids. Any favorites? Applesauce, butternut squash & peaches have thus far been met with similar levels of eh. He's more interested in the spoon than what's on it. Same with the sippy cup - he loooves chewing on the spout, but any water that dribbles out just cascades right out & down his chin. Occasionally I get the WTF face. But if I'm drinking cranberry juice in a glass, look out - he's allll over it. I'm tempted to break out the water & red food coloring... c'mon, like he'd know the difference... /bad mama tongue.gif
moxiegirl
Ah solids- we've gone through all the stage 1 foods, I think. No big rejections. Moxette's favorites are by far bannanas and prunes on the fruit side and green beans on the veggie side. Beware the first prune-poop...its LARGE and DARK- a total shocker, fwiw. Nothing was super easy the first couple times, though...she is still much more interested in the spoon. So, we use 2 spoons...1 for her to "feed" herself, and 1 for us to feed her with. Now, with the stage 2 foods, we've tried "berry+apples" which was a success, and chunkier sweet potatoes, also a good success. Our baby book noted that most babies need 5-10 shots at a given food b/4 really making a "yeah" or "nay" descision. We also noticed that when we mixed the fruit/veggie right with the cereal, we had much greater success.

Yeah, the sippy cup is much more a toy right now...she loves playing with it, esp. with ice water...i think it helps her teethygums. Don't feel bad about the water...moxette makes a run for beer bottles!
bustygirl
Little Eddie is actually not very hard to discipline. He's still able to be redirected most of the time, and on a few notable occasions, he's actually stopped doing something just because I said no.

At 14 months, he still has his temper flare-ups if you take something away from him, but it blows over really quick, and usually you only have to give him something else in return and he calms down.

He's got a fairly sweet disposition so far. He doesn't hit or bite or slap, although he can be forceful if he wants something, but in more of an I'm-going-to-find-a-way-around-you kind of way. He's really affectionate, super friendly, and not too clingy.

He's been giving us hugs since about seven months. Real hugs. Sometimes they even involve him patting or rubbing our backs. He's a sweet, sweet kid.

As far as food, he'll eat pretty much anything: meat, veggies, pasta, fruit, crackers, bread, bagels, chips, scones, milk, juice, water, et al. He likes chili, pizza, yogurt, bananas, ice cream, cold chinese noodles, and indian food.

He's not a big fan of peas, but he'll eat them. He doesn't like guacamole, but he'll come around.
pepper
good for you girl, focus on that positive stuff. it'll help buoy you up during those really low times. i know, it is SO hard. little really did cry all the time until he was about two and he was a right pissy little mongrel until about three and a half. he would NOT sleep, only with the boob in his mouth and he'd wake Right up if i tried to get it back once he'd passed out, nap time and all through the night too. he wouldn't go to sleep, he wouldn't stay asleep, he woke up all night long. i swear, it aged me five years in two.
now he sleeps like a charm but he's FIVE so he'd better!
all i can say is that it will pass. it WILL. in the meantime try whatever you think of, nap with him and keep on reaching out for help and support. sometimes that was all that kept me from losing it entirely!
moxiegirl
So, last night we got some confirmation that teething is the culprit behind the sleep woes in our house. We saw little white lines under moxette's bottom gums. Not popped through yet, but definitly closer to the surface. Busty vibes for quick poking through?

Little Eddie sounds like a right-gentleman to me. Hugs, with back pats? How adorably cute! I think sleep, like most other things, is a choose-your-battles issue. Eventually, he will sleep, in his own bed, well. I hope you both get some good zzzz's and cuddles in. Thinking about napping with the bebe makes me kinda sad we didn't do any co-sleeping at all. I hope, though, that naps with a toddler will be just as sweet.
tart
UU UU UU toothy vibes for the Moxlette! UU UU UU

So here's another one for the Oh-for-Fuck's-Sake file: Tag & Other Deadly Contact Sports Banned Childhood isn't childhood, IMHO, without a few decent battle scars to show for it...

Yay for Eddie - what a honey! And he eats Indian food! I know too many grown adults who aren't that adventurous in their eating habits....
moxiegirl
oh goodness me. scrape a knee, for crying out loud. Are we going to ban hardwood floors where children live because an occasional THUD will be heard?

Is tartlette bumping over yet? moxette's bumps have gotten much more graceful. She's a creepin, but not crawlin yet. Soon...the baby gates are installed, the low-glasses put away, and plugs in the outlets. Its a start.
bustygirl
There's always some nutty sue-happy parent out there ready to ruin it for everybody. Seems a lot of the stuff we did as kids has been overtaken by the Safety Patrol.

In protest, I'm running with scissors while I heat the whole neighbourhood. wink.gif
moxiegirl
ugh- last night was a challenge. Every 20 minutes from 2-4 AM, SCREAMING then fussing, then quiet, then the cycle starts all over again. Damn teeth. POP THROUGH ALREADY! ...sigh...at 6:30, though, sleeping like a little perfect bundle of cuddles.

Question for you working mamas out there...we usually feed moxette between 5-6 AM, even if she's sleeping. Mostly, to make sure she gets through till 7:30 ish, when its time to get up for school. At what point do we let her just GO, and start a more regular breakfast-lunch-dinner thing? My gut (hehe, yes, bad pun intended, sorry) says somewhere between 9 and 12 months, but i wonder, and second guess, of course.
tart
Oh, Mox, how miserable, for all of you! Here, toothytoothytoothy! This is where the breastfeeding/co-sleeping thing comes is super handy... it does mean, however, that I can be utterly lazy & not have any alternative soothing methods to recommend. Hylands, Tylenol, some exercise in the evening to tucker her out... that's all I got!

I dreamfeed Tartlet at 4:45ish every morning, whether he's awake or not; there's usually a top-up (aka, I'm feeling lopsided) around 6:30, and Tartman's been playing with a bit of solids before they leave for daycare at 8. From what I've read, if they're sleeping through regularly & gaining well, you can start a more "adult" eating routine. We're soooo close to that stage, but I'm determined to wait until he's really got the 11-4:30 sleeping down pat before I go reinventing the wheel...

Squash was a bigger hit last night - I think he's getting used to the taste & consistency, and swallows just about everything. Still only getting a teaspoon or two at a time - I hate to plug him full of something that his belly's still adjusting to, right before bed.

Tartlet's been bumping over for ages, but yeah, it's a lot more controlled now, and he's learning how to go from back to belly to side, depending on what he wants to reach. Lots of backwards scooting, and a few commando belly crawls, enough to get him alarmingly mobile... My favorite thing these days (besides the abwabwa trick) is the interest in little tags & bits of ribbon - he'll stop mid play and just gently stroke them with his fingetips... So focused. wub.gif
moxiegirl
THanks tart. Moxieman does an 11:30 dream feed/diapy change, which definitly gets her through (teeth not withstanding) to at least 5am- usually, a dream feed at 6am when i get up. Head bumps, rolls to weird positions, etc. get her up earlier. She's got 2 soild means (cereal, fruit or veggie-about 2 oz each, milk) a day, the rest still moooo. I think gradually increasing to 3 solids over time, and then finger foods will give me the guidance to drop the 6am OR 11:30 PM feed...i doubt she could go w/o both from 8pm bedtime -8am school arrival time. Maybe though...

As for the bottle-breast-comfort gig- i try very hard to provide moxette with a bottle (just a small one, or whatever) when she's fussy, and lots of cuddles- there are some nights (last night!) when its an ounce or two every hour- i couldn't stand myself if i used the formula as a barrier between moxette adn me comforting each other. Breastfeeding was just too flippin hard for us, after the labor-delivery saga. And co-sleeping was never an option, as her pop and i are too paranoid about kitties, blankets and deep sleep ourselves. Oh, our Dr. reccomended motrin for the teething - "Tylenol doesn't cut it". The motrin does seem to work. her waking-fussy time was right when the motrin wore off.

Tart- I assume you're still on the stage 1 foods- a tip- regular old applesauce was a MUCH bigger hit than the baby-food stuff- we're fans of TJ's natural apple variety, and bannanas and prunes are her absolute favorites. Although, 2 days ago, we did apple-blueberry, and the kid ATTACKED the bowl.
tart
Yeah, we're just toying around w/Stage 1, Mox, and boy, I can't say I blame the kid for being a bit eh. The peaches, especially - I was envisioning nice fresh peachiness, and got weird reconstituted dried peach goop instead. We're going to work through the tiny bit of baby-style we have & switch over to the real thing. Apple-blueberry sounds deevine... We still haven't broken out the rice cereal - Mum & Dad are snobby gourmands, it seems, and fortified wallpaper paste just isn't cutting it when there's so much good food to try. Like avocados!

Our ped told us absolutely no Motrin til 6 months... go fig. I think they just make shit up, honestly.

(On the co-sleeping front, Tartman had the same paranoia, but it's amazing how the baby radar kicks in & keeps you from rolling over/elbowing/smothering the kid. Granted, neither of us sleep as deeply as we once did, but hey, at least it's sleep.)

We finally got the daycare ladies' trick to getting Tartlet to nap during the day - if he's getting cranky, they cuddle him for a bit, then lay him on a regular (firm) bed pillow on their laps. Apparently, he bearhugs the pillow & drops off to sleep in a matter of minutes blink.gif Freaky SIDS risks aside, this is effing genius, and will be put to the test this weekend...
moxiegirl
Oh, she was 6 mos 1 week when he green-lighted the motrin. Yeah, there's something about liver processessing...or something.

Moxette only sleeps cuddling a blankie. Lovies are big hits with the crawling crowd. Maybe a firm/plush stuffed animal to cuddle with? I've found her many a morning with the blankie up over her face, belly down. She's still breathing.

Rice cereal is like poop. ITs just gross. Moxette only eats it if its mixed with something else- like fruit or veggies. On the other hand, she LOVES oatmeal. And the baby oatmeal mixes up and tastes pretty darned similar to grown-up oatmeal. I read that some cereal of some sort is good once or twice a day, cause its pretty fortified with minerals (iron, zinc, folates) that start to diminish plentifulness in breastmilk, given baby size and growth as 1 year approaches.
pepper
pylatin (sp?) the digestive enzyme for grains doesn't develop in humans until around year one. that's why that cereal makes babies sleep, it takes all the energy their wee bodies have to gather all that junk up and flush it out. i waited on the grains until little was over a year, i figured his body had other developmental uses for all that energy. sure, i got way too little sleep but it was only for a year or two (AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!).
chani
dudes, I kindof liked the rice cereal!
Chaniboy is 14 months now and ate everything from sushi to tofu to beets for a few months. We are now entering the picky stage. It's so frustrating that he has a different set of "yes" foods and "no" foods every day! Avocado is a "no" these days!!! So sad!!
Moxie: The sleep book we used (Weisbluth) put the no need for nighttime topups stage somewhere between 6 and 9 months, depending on the baby. Chaniboy slept through the night with a bottle at bedtime and first awakening at about 7-8 mo (after 3 nights of CIO) and by 9-10 mo just had his dinner at 6ish and his breakfast at 8ish.
moxiegirl
that's kind of what we're figuring, chani. How u, btw?

right now, we're in sleep hell. the baby is really sick, and only sleeping while being held. by me. me only. me standing, preferably. moxieman is out of town, and god bless grandparents helping at 3am, or i'd be totally bonkers.
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