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honeybunch
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 6 2009, 02:54 PM) *
Oh. My. God. What a powerful essay!!!!!

It's crazy how I could relate on so many levels. Having a totally different body type (tall/thin/small breasts), it is so interesting to read about her experiences from "the other side" but actually, I had many similar experiences. My small breasts by themselves didn't get attention, but I think I had that Lolita look: half girl/half-woman which somehow drove some males nuts. I remember a creepy teacher making comments and another idiot who exposed his penis to me on the street on my way home from school when I was in FOURTH GRADE; being groped on public transportation; propositioned by strangers in cars or on the street; having my ass grabbed by half a class of boys in junior high school (and then having my "friends" blame ME for not "doing anything"--as if I was supposed to fight off 20 boys by myself...)... The list goes on and on.... One of my most horrifying memories was walking home from college and having some asshat stopped at a Stop sign say, "Why don't you give me head while I wait?" My anger only turned to horror when I complained to my dad about it and he said, "Oh, that's not that bad." WTF??!!!

I remember seeing big-breasted girls get grabbed and talked about in school, and it made me mad. I have to agree with the author that it's not breasts or bodies of whatever size that cause problems, it's our damned attitudes. My body type is different from the authors', but I've experienced so many of the same things--unwanted male attention, women saying they "hate you" like it's a compliment, people perceiving that how I am as a person goes according to some mental filter of how they think people with my body type "are."

...and if you will all forgive a man-hating moment, I wonder if men (perpetuators of most of this behavior) would keep doing it if they had to endure any of it growing up and knew what it was like. I can't tell you of how many times I've tried to communicate my experiences to boyfriends/male friends and they DO NOT GET IT.

Very powerful article. Thanks for sharing, purplestain.

PS: The "Melons" contest--in a school!!???



I also had middle aged men hitting on me as young as 12, but I sincerely think they didn't realize I was only 12,13.

I knew a girl who had a similar body type. She was quite toned, thin and athletic from the waist down, but I promise you she must have been an E cup at least. I can't say I envied her breasts. Boys made comments. Another girl I knew with a similar body type had boys comment to her face how big her breasts are. "You have big breasts." I mean WTF she has about 10 lbs of breasts on her chest do you think she needs you to remind her??? I just wanted to be like STFU and keep you TONGUE and your EYES in your effing head. I got those kinds of comments,too, as if I need a reminder that I have small breasts, and it was usually said with disgust.

I remember watching some show with Lisa Ling. She went to a high school. She had all the students in a gym and divided the girls and boys.

She asks which girls had been sexually harassed and every single female raised their hand. mad.gif

Then the boys were asked if they had ever made inappropriate comments about a girl. All of them raised their hands. Some of them said they thought that's how boys are supposed to act. I mean seriously? Do some guys think women are here for their own pleasure? mad.gif mad.gif mad.gif I can't say I'm surprised-I read somewhere that objectifying women can be a male bonding experience.

I don't think guys get it at all. I don't even think most of them give it a second thought.

And my feminist rant is over before I puke.
hcbeck
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 6 2009, 08:54 PM) *
...and if you will all forgive a man-hating moment, I wonder if men (perpetuators of most of this behavior) would keep doing it if they had to endure any of it growing up and knew what it was like.


Sadly, even speaking as a man, I think some would still perpetuate this behaviour, even if they were victims of it at other times in their life. Such is the nature of power and the way one defines oneself. Even the bullied themselves sometimes bully others.

I don't know about schools today, but when I was a teenager, part of the definition of 'male' and 'female' was 'pursuer' and 'pursued.' I suppose the majority of boys find that definition too seductive to resist.

I guess being human isn't enough.
karategrrl
QUOTE(honeybunch @ Mar 6 2009, 09:40 PM) *
I read somewhere that objectifying women can be a male bonding experience.

Yes, it is.
QUOTE(honeybunch @ Mar 6 2009, 09:40 PM) *
I don't think guys get it at all. I don't even think most of them give it a second thought.

No, they don't. They're used to it. I, however, can never get used to it.

As I wrote this, I just had a revelation. I think I can understand how, on one level, strippers can do what they do, in the sense of, "shit, they're always going to stare/leer/grope and that will never change...as long as they are going to, why not at least make money off of it?"


...then just as quickly, the idealist in me says, "NO! Fight the power!! mad.gif
Aithinne
Oooooooh sexual harassment is another topic that just makes me want to start slicing dicks off. I think a lot of men don't consider why so many women feel uncomfortable with this treatment. Some think it is honestly a compliment. Ugh. I cannot stand catcallers and leering disgusting men. They make me feel so violated. I don't know how to describe it, but there is a difference in how men look at you and how it makes you feel, depending on their approach. A lot of men can look at you in a leering fashion and you just feel disgusting. Ha!! AS IF I would EVER allow those men to touch me in any way. But, there have been maybe one or two times that a guy has looked at me in appreciation, as if he sees not only the body, but the person underneath. The first look is revolting, the second gets me hot. I have tried to explain to my male friends who ask how the two looks are different, as far as what happens to the facial features, but it's more an eye thing. It's hard to explain a look, you know? I can only describe how it makes me feel. I wish more men did not look at women in such a demeaning way, as if they were walking blow-up dolls.

Men don't understand that catcalling and sexual harassment is not a compliment. You don't know how to react to men that do that, and it is scary to try to judge some men's behavior. Is he harmless, or will he attack me? How do you possibly know? You don't. So you have two options, either ignore the guy and keep walking, or confront him. The first possibility can be dangerous because then the guy might feel insulted, or maybe it's the power thing going on, and you not acknowledging his demeaning comments/looks makes him feel less macho. He might attack you or bother you more if you ignore. And the women who ignore them? Apparently those women are bitches or sluts. However, you have to consider confronting him, which can be dangerous too. So, what do you do? It's a catch-22, and you do not know how some strange man will react. Men don't realize that when they harass women, it's not making us feel good. Sexual harassment is threatening and scary. In the words of Carole Sheffield, it is sexual terrorism. Men think we're going to sit there and try to determine if they are harmless or if they are possibly violent? NO WAY. Women should not 'learn to tell the difference' or 'learn to take a compliment'. NO. Men need to learn how to interact with women in a non-threatening way.

I have the right to walk in public spaces and not feel threatened. I have the right to not respond to harassers. I have the right to be taken seriously. A lot of the time, people give excuses for men, saying "boys will be boys" or other such drivel. Bullshit. That is NO EXCUSE. Men are perfectly capable of interacting with women in a non-threatening and non-dehumanizing manner.
honeybunch
QUOTE(Aithinne @ Mar 8 2009, 12:55 AM) *
Oooooooh sexual harassment is another topic that just makes me want to start slicing dicks off. I think a lot of men don't consider why so many women feel uncomfortable with this treatment. Some think it is honestly a compliment. Ugh. I cannot stand catcallers and leering disgusting men. They make me feel so violated. I don't know how to describe it, but there is a difference in how men look at you and how it makes you feel, depending on their approach. A lot of men can look at you in a leering fashion and you just feel disgusting. Ha!! AS IF I would EVER allow those men to touch me in any way. But, there have been maybe one or two times that a guy has looked at me in appreciation, as if he sees not only the body, but the person underneath. The first look is revolting, the second gets me hot. I have tried to explain to my male friends who ask how the two looks are different, as far as what happens to the facial features, but it's more an eye thing. It's hard to explain a look, you know? I can only describe how it makes me feel. I wish more men did not look at women in such a demeaning way, as if they were walking blow-up dolls.

Men don't understand that catcalling and sexual harassment is not a compliment. You don't know how to react to men that do that, and it is scary to try to judge some men's behavior. Is he harmless, or will he attack me? How do you possibly know? You don't. So you have two options, either ignore the guy and keep walking, or confront him. The first possibility can be dangerous because then the guy might feel insulted, or maybe it's the power thing going on, and you not acknowledging his demeaning comments/looks makes him feel less macho. He might attack you or bother you more if you ignore. And the women who ignore them? Apparently those women are bitches or sluts. However, you have to consider confronting him, which can be dangerous too. So, what do you do? It's a catch-22, and you do not know how some strange man will react. Men don't realize that when they harass women, it's not making us feel good. Sexual harassment is threatening and scary. In the words of Carole Sheffield, it is sexual terrorism. Men think we're going to sit there and try to determine if they are harmless or if they are possibly violent? NO WAY. Women should not 'learn to tell the difference' or 'learn to take a compliment'. NO. Men need to learn how to interact with women in a non-threatening way.

I have the right to walk in public spaces and not feel threatened. I have the right to not respond to harassers. I have the right to be taken seriously. A lot of the time, people give excuses for men, saying "boys will be boys" or other such drivel. Bullshit. That is NO EXCUSE. Men are perfectly capable of interacting with women in a non-threatening and non-dehumanizing manner.


*feels blood pressure going up*

Yes, and the bold is about what boys were saying on that show I was talking about. Who in the hell is teaching them this?

Plz don't get me started on "boys will be boys." That shit really burns me up. *makes angry contorted faces*

Funny you should bring up the doll thing. I was reading on Pornography and Silence by S. Griffin. She discusses how women are viewed as dolls that men control. Heck, we even have performers called Pussycat DOLLS, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Apparently, the whole doll thing goes really deep.
angie_21
QUOTE(honeybunch @ Mar 8 2009, 12:18 PM) *
Funny you should bring up the doll thing. I was reading on Pornography and Silence by S. Griffin. She discusses how women are viewed as dolls that men control. Heck, we even have performers called Pussycat DOLLS, and I don't think that's a coincidence. Apparently, the whole doll thing goes really deep.


Yeah, and a line from one of their songs is, I swear, "when I grow up, I wanna have boobies." Someone correct me if I have been hearing it wrong, because I do hope that I have been...


Ask me about the 3 summers I have lived in rig pig oil camps. I dare you! Never been so happy to have small boobies in my life.
Jane Lane
QUOTE(angie_21 @ Mar 8 2009, 11:17 PM) *
Yeah, and a line from one of their songs is, I swear, "when I grow up, I wanna have boobies." Someone correct me if I have been hearing it wrong, because I do hope that I have been...
Ask me about the 3 summers I have lived in rig pig oil camps. I dare you! Never been so happy to have small boobies in my life.


You'll be glad to know you have been hearing it wrong... it's "I wanna have groupies." But when I first heard the song, I also heard boobies.

That ridiculous song is one gigantic contradiction, if you take the time to read through the lyrics. It starts off with the girl saying that she told herself when she was little that she would do absolutely anything to get the attention of boys. Horrifying, right? But then she seems to redeem herself by saying "Be careful what you wish for, 'cause you just might get it." Okay, hopeful. A bit further on, however, she goes on to talk about how much she loves her life now that she's in the public eye, with guys lusting after her 24/7. The Pussycat Dolls make me want to pull my hair out in feminist frustration.

(lyrics)
karategrrl
QUOTE(Aithinne @ Mar 8 2009, 05:55 AM) *
Oooooooh sexual harassment is another topic that just makes me want to start slicing dicks off.


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Act now, and get a free set of Ginsu knives! (Remember those late-night infomercials??)

QUOTE(Aithinne @ Mar 8 2009, 05:55 AM) *
...A lot of the time, people give excuses for men, saying "boys will be boys" or other such drivel. Bullshit. That is NO EXCUSE. Men are perfectly capable of interacting with women in a non-threatening and non-dehumanizing manner.


Aithinne, I couldn't have said anything you said better myself. And I remember being well aware of sexual harassment as early on as childhood. I also cannot stand that "boys will be boys" shit. I have shut up a couple of men who excused behavior with "I'm a guy" by responding, "Yes, you are a guy--an intelligent guy who's capable of behaving better than that." The bewildered looks I got in response were priceless. I see the female version of "I'm a guy" as women who use PMS as an excuse for anything and everything. PMS is real but some women DO use it as an excuse. ...Also, pretending to be ditzy or dumb.

And Aithinne, I totally get ya on the "nice look" vs. "sexist pig look." I like when a man looks me in the EYE and says "hello" respectfully. That's nice. However, that's happened maybe 3 times in my life whereas I've lost count of the other shit. And remember, some women DO respond to men who leer out of car windows and such. Sometimes it is, in many cultures, the accepted version of saying, "I like the way you look."

Attack or ignore? One must evaluate each situation differently, but I have to say overall I don't take that kind of shit if I don't feel I'm in physical danger. I think for many men, if I speak up it's shocking--it's like the first time any woman ever stood up and said something. I haven't actually attacked anyone but I know at some point I may have to punch the shit out of some asshat who desperately needs it.

You know, I was wondering, what makes us "feminist" for just wanting to be treated decently? Don't get me wrong--I have no problem with the term. But...you know what I mean? If a man stands up for himself, he gets respect. A woman does the same thing and she's a bitch, cunt, femi-nazi or "desperately needs to get laid."
lightchested
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 7 2009, 08:12 PM) *
As I wrote this, I just had a revelation. I think I can understand how, on one level, strippers can do what they do, in the sense of, "shit, they're always going to stare/leer/grope and that will never change...as long as they are going to, why not at least make money off of it?"
...then just as quickly, the idealist in me says, "NO! Fight the power!! mad.gif


Karategrrl,


I had to respond to this. I can tell you from first hand experience how strippers do what they do. Or at least how one of them did.

My original plan was to "blow up the world from the inside". I had taken women's studies courses in which we learned that one way to obliterate a power structure was to take power inside that structure, and then blow it up. Join it, then destroy it.

So for every single guy I did dances, I asked them if they were married. I was shocked at how many not only told me "Yes", easily and without hesitation, but also pulled out their wallet to show me not only the picture of the their wife, but also their kids!!! What blew me away the worst was when they had daughters roughly my age or a bit younger. I would then ask, "How would you feel about your daughter stripping?" They always looked shocked, and often a bit insulted, and ALWAYS replied, "My daughter would NEVER do this." ("this" being what I was doing at the time) I always followed that up with, "That's exactly what my dad would say." I ended those conversations there, and let them think on that.

When men did not have daughters roughly my age, but had wives, I asked how they'd feel if their wives were strippers. They'd always say, "My wife could never do this." and then typically made some reference to her body being out of shape, etc. I would then tell them, "Have you ever wondered why all of these places are dark and smoky from black ice? You should see all of us in the dressing room, under the flourescent lights. If guys saw us there, we'd all be broke." They usually didn't believe me at first, but I was insistent. (It was true) I told them how cellulite and skin imperfections disappear in the dark, with a bunch of black ice smoke everywhere. Also, how the lighting gave me contours that made my chest look much much better than under flourescent lighting. I told them everything they saw there was an illusion, and the customers were paying women who were other men's wives, when they each had a perfectly good wife at home who was no different than anybody here. (at the bar)

Sometimes guys would say, "You want me to leave???" And I'd say I just wanted them to do what they thought was right. They often pointed out, "You would make money on me if I stay, but you want me to leave?" and I'd just say they had to live with their conscience, and they should do what they think is right. They were shocked by this, but I had the advantage of having a decent paying "day job", so I was not completely dependent on my income from this peripheral job.

Also, men a lot of times asked me what I was doing there, telling me I was "too good/smart/etc. to be doing this." I would then turn it around on them. Were they not too good/smart/etc. to be doing this? They always replied, "I'm not working here." I would reply, "But you're here. What's the difference?" They seemed to make a distinction, as though by working there, I should be some particular type of person, but by their frequenting the establishment, this was somehow not any indication of what kind of person they were. They thought they should escape any stigma for going there, but that I was stigmatized by working there. I tried like hell to point out to them that it's all the same...we were all there...and that if they don't like the idea of me being stigmatized by working there, or poisoned by it, or if they feared in any way that their daughter would ever do the same, then their job was to STOP GOING THERE. To stop supporting those types of establishments so that they could cease to exist. I never met a one who was willing to make this commitment. They wanted to be able to go to those places, with some anonymous girl being "poisoned" by him and her other customers, and stigmatized by having that job, but they wanted the anonymous girl to never be their wife or their daughter.

Lastly, one of the things I learned about in my women's studies was that it can be powerful to use a force that holds you down AGAINST the force that is holding you down, for your own gain. This will sound selfish and self-serving, but here it is: I figured if men are stupid enough to be such slaves to their hormones, then women may as well use those hormones against the men as a way to extract money from them. This is horrible I know. But I figured it was a way of evening out the money/power structure. Men thought they had the power, with all of their money. But the longer they sat there, having dance after dance, the less control they were in, and the more of their money they handed over. They lost track of where the control was, and they certainly lost track of their money. I know this is awful.

Finally, why did I do this job, particularly considering I had a decent-paying day job? It's a little off topic, but here's why. First, I was deathly afraid of not making enough money in my day job (sales) and needing to move back home with my parents. Secondly, I had had bad experiences with men and I needed to find a way to be comfortable with them again, in a setting where I was in control, and the situation would stay controlled. (in public, bouncers, etc.) This job allowed me to learn how to not be afraid of men anymore (they are actually all pretty afraid of us!!!). Thirdly, sadly, I was looking for reassurance about my breast size. It made me feel validated or something that nobody questioned my breast size there. I learned that if you take your clothes off and act like it's anything worth seeing, then men assume it is something worth seeing (without question).

And I did feel guilty sometimes, knowing that even with all of the dark lighting and black ice smoke, I probably had some kind of "looks advantage", perhaps my hair for example, which made this job viable to me, whereas it might not be to all women, due to the prevalence of looks-ism in society. And although I don't buy into looks-ism, I realized that the fact that others do, and that I somewhat fit some stereotypical looks-ist "standards", gave me an advantage in being able to extract money back from those who hold the money in our power structure. I did feel guilty about that- that perhaps not all women would realistically be able to extract the money back as I was if they so chose. But I didn't know how to make it right, other than to point out to patrons that their wives would look just like we did if they were dressed up, made up, and on a stage in the dark with well-placed lighting and lots of black ice smoke. I wanted the customers to realize that we were NOTHING SPECIAL (they had us built up in their minds as being something I never quite understood) and that women are women are women...all the same.

I was never able to fully make that part of things "right" in my mind, though- because on some level I did realize that truly not every woman in the world would be met with acceptance if she were half naked on a stage, no matter what the lighting or smoke level, and that bothered me a lot. I hate inequity, and it's hard to feel "good" about extracting money back from the power structure if deep down you realize that not every woman would have the ability to do so in such a manner, if she so chose.

Anyway, there it is. How a stripper does it. (at least how this one did) I'd sum it up by saying, "With good intentions and mixed emotions."

And one last thing...there really is something intoxicating and addictive about people handing you greenbacks. sad.gif

honeybunch
QUOTE(lightchested @ Mar 9 2009, 10:00 AM) *

Karategrrl,


I had to respond to this. I can tell you from first hand experience how strippers do what they do. Or at least how one of them did.

My original plan was to "blow up the world from the inside". I had taken women's studies courses in which we learned that one way to obliterate a power structure was to take power inside that structure, and then blow it up. Join it, then destroy it.

So for every single guy I did dances, I asked them if they were married. I was shocked at how many not only told me "Yes", easily and without hesitation, but also pulled out their wallet to show me not only the picture of the their wife, but also their kids!!! What blew me away the worst was when they had daughters roughly my age or a bit younger. I would then ask, "How would you feel about your daughter stripping?" They always looked shocked, and often a bit insulted, and ALWAYS replied, "My daughter would NEVER do this." ("this" being what I was doing at the time) I always followed that up with, "That's exactly what my dad would say." I ended those conversations there, and let them think on that.

When men did not have daughters roughly my age, but had wives, I asked how they'd feel if their wives were strippers. They'd always say, "My wife could never do this." and then typically made some reference to her body being out of shape, etc. I would then tell them, "Have you ever wondered why all of these places are dark and smoky from black ice? You should see all of us in the dressing room, under the flourescent lights. If guys saw us there, we'd all be broke." They usually didn't believe me at first, but I was insistent. (It was true) I told them how cellulite and skin imperfections disappear in the dark, with a bunch of black ice smoke everywhere. Also, how the lighting gave me contours that made my chest look much much better than under flourescent lighting. I told them everything they saw there was an illusion, and the customers were paying women who were other men's wives, when they each had a perfectly good wife at home who was no different than anybody here. (at the bar)



I'm not surprised at all. I used to think that it was single, lonely guys who went to strip clubs-then I watched G-string divas and realized that wasn't the case at all.

Even though I've only been on the planet a short time, I long ago realized that men into strippers or what have you wouldnt want their daughters to do. I don't think they get that deep at all, they just want to bust a nut. mad.gif
karategrrl
Holy freaking crap, lightchested!!! What an incredible insight you offered. THANKS!!!

It's going to take me awhile to read, re-read and process your post, but off the bat what sticks with me is men's double standards, i.e., they can go to strip clubs but the women who do it are wrong to do it; they can go to strip clubs but they'd never let their daughter do it. Yep, the male mind--don't even try to figure it out.

Reminds me of my husband. Some of our worst fights ever were over his flirting with other women. He's tried to justify it up one side and down the other but meanwhile I know for a fact he'd be flipping out if I were to do do anything that even came close to things he's said/done.

...and lightchested, very interesting that you made money with your small breasts!!! Stripping and boob jobs seem to go-in-hand nowadays. Interesting to note it's not necessarily so.

...and GOOD FOR YOU asking all those questions of the patrons.


Oh, please say more about how men are afraid of US....??? Curious.
karategrrl
Okay, a few more thoughts;

They'd always say, "My wife could never do this." and then typically made some reference to her body being out of shape, etc.

Many, MANY wives are "out of shape" from having these men's kids. Many more of them are at home taking care of said kids while hubby is at strip club.

They seemed to make a distinction, as though by working there, I should be some particular type of person, but by their frequenting the establishment, this was somehow not any indication of what kind of person they were.

Of course, it's different for men. Don't you know that??

Funny, I always thought "Gentlemen's" clubs were mis-named.

but they wanted the anonymous girl to never be their wife or their daughter.

This makes about as much sense as finding the girl you want to settle down with and be monogamous with and then going to a strip club for your bachelor party--you know, as an outward public statement of your desire to settle down.


I think what just about all of stupid male behavior comes down to is, they do what they do because THEY CAN.
anarch
lightchested, that was awesome. Have you published or blogged about this anywhere? There could be some real honest conversations between men & women springing from stories like this. (Lots of knee-jerk turd-dropping asshat reactions, natch, too, but that comes with the territory.) People are able to avoid them in daily life because it's all hush-hush and so many people, just like the guys you talked to, are in denial, but the more exposure stories like this get, the more people will have to come face to face with at least some of their assumptions, and bring them out into the open sunshine.
honeybunch
I would also like to thank lightchested!

In a weird way I liked that you were making money. I saw a very small bustie on TV make $600 a night. I was like dang she doesn't have a boob job, but she's making that money! If I could make that much a night with small boobs I wouldn't bother with a boob job.



I'll be back later to respond again to lightchested's post.

QUOTE
Oh, please say more about how men are afraid of US....??? Curious.


I'd like to hear more,too.
Maybe I'll ask my partner-he was once an avid strip club visitor for his insight.

And as someone who deals with sex addicts, some guys prefer sex with anonymous people. They dont' feel as vulnerable as they do with their wives or significant others-and it's nothing to do with the wives really. If a sex worker rejects them, it's ok b/c in their minds the stripper is below them. Some are addicted to that I-just-met-you feeling, and a strip club is an easy way to get those endorphins flowing. So no, I'm not surprised at all many of those guys are married.
Aithinne
I honestly don't know what my opinion of strip clubs are. Some days I think I'd be ok with my boyfriend (you know, the one I don't have... lol) going to a strip club, and other days, not so much. I'm not sure I'd be ok with my SO going to check out other naked women, it just seems like betrayal to me. Plus, they're spending their money on these women. I know this doesn't sound true, but I'm not one to care much about a man's money. As long as he can take care of himself, whether he's a millionaire or just getting by, doesn't matter to me. It just seems like even more of a betrayal that he feels he has to go out and spend money to watch some other girl get naked when I'm at home for free. Idk, I just feel like if he went to a strip club, that he'd be looking at the perfectly proportioned naked chicks that were not me and wish he had one or more of THEM and not want me anymore.

I thought most strip-goers were single men. Really depressing that there are so many married men. Makes me not want to get married... wow. I sincerely struggle with trying to come up with reasons that men should be trusted anymore. There are probably some good ones out there, but damn, how could you not be insecure with the way some of them behave? How CAN they be trusted? I sincerely would like to know, because I don't want to totally ruin my hope.

On a side note, I turned on the tv today because I wasn't feeling good and was flipping through the channels. Rock of Love was on, and I have never noticed how plastic those women are. Their boobs looked totally fake and humungous. They wore way too much makeup and way too little clothing. Yet another media program where nothing less than huge breasts = hot sexy woman. Very sad and depressing.
loonydaray
lightchested. dude.
thankyou so much for sharing that! i love the thought of a rebel woman trying to break down the strip club system from the inside...
but seriously, have you thought of writing a book? maybe that seems a little far-fetched, but i'm totally serious. your story is not only real and insightful, but it's something that would get people to really listen you know? it just doesn't get any more real than that. i can really see that story going places, changing minds... i mean... i'm just completely blown away right now by how damn real that is. i have so much respect for you for posting that and going through that, that's all i'm saying.
KeraBear
Lightchested, that was fantastic. Forget putting together a blog, you should write a book about your experiences!
KeraBear
Hey, has anybody ever heard the Boob Fairy song by Deirdre Flint. It's great. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ctz5T7AHpc...feature=related
neurotic.nelly
deleted... just because i don't feel comfortable having it here.
anarch
Yeah, lightchested, a book that would do for stripping what Jeannette Angell did for being a call girl. (Mind you, even though that book made it as obvious as possible that she was critiquing popular stereotypes of call girl work from the inside, and that most of the johns were complete pathetic fuckups with jaw-dropping self-esteem problems, there was still a stoopid-I-think-with-my-dick Amazon review that said something like "Read this book if you want to know how to really turn a man on"! Yowza, way to miss all of the author's points. Every one of them. None of it reads like erotica.)
neurotic.nelly
Chiming in again here, tagging on anarch's coattails, there's this autobiographical account, Confessions of a video Vixen. This book provided a glimpse into a different yet similar world, giving a voice to a particular group of overtly objectified wymyns.
lightchested
I'm stunned. I was so afraid everyone was going to reject me if I posted that.

Thank you so much. I never tell anyone. Thank you.

I will answer everyone's questions thoroughly, but can't do it tonight. I have to wake up in about four hours so I can go train a bunch of people on a software application I don't myself understand. How do I get myself in to these things? (I did it to bail out my boss's boss, who forgot this meeting was tomorrow, and has no agenda, and was panicked, so I offered to train on this product. I warned him my training won't be "polished". That's an understatement. But I ramble.)

I am so blown away by the responses. Thank you so much.

A phrase that anarch used summed up the majority of my customers: "jaw-dropping self-esteem problems".

I also want to respond quickly to the married man thing. I was shocked that that was shocking! But I guess I shouldn't be, because it shocked me when I started doing it. I thought they'd "forgotten", and left their wedding ring on. But then they'd brag about their wife to me! (some of them) Like, if you think you're wife's so great, what the HELL are you doing HERE??? I agree COMPLETELY with what Aithinne wrote about it being cheating. I'm sorry, but I just do. The betrayal to me, when a guy does that to me (and they have) is so deep that I almost go into a denial when it happens. In fact, that's what pushed me into that whole mess. But more on that later.

What I wanted to say now is there are two kinds of men there: groups and loners. The ones in groups tend to be boisterous and misogynistic. But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. What bugged the living crap out of me is when this type of guy's friends would force a lapdance on him, with him seriously protesting. I REFUSED to do it. I tried to defend these guys to their friends, and would tell other girls not to do it because he really didn't want one. I did as much as I could to protect them from their disgusting friends. It was like they were being tortured and it wasn't fair. They would look away the whole time. I don't want to think about that right now.

Okay, and then besides the groups are the loners. These are the ones I liked. They were looking for something on a psychological level...someone to listen to them...someone they could feel close to...and I know this is going to sound crazy, but someone who cared. So often I felt like a psychologist in that job. I know that sounds so warped. I gave marital advice, job advice (why the hell would someone take such advice from a stripper??? rolleyes.gif But I guess what I said made sense to them) I'm highly empathetic, and I like to believe I helped a lot of guys through some black feelings. The main one being loneliness.

Which brings me back to the married guys. They were lonely. They were married and they were lonely. Whether it was because they felt the wife used up all her attention on the kids (and they knew it was selfish of them, but still they felt neglected) or because she'd "changed" after they got married, it was like a wall went up, at least in their minds, between the guy and his spouse, and he felt like he couldn't open up to her anymore. But the guy would want the empathy of a woman, so ... voila... a stripper. Often guys said no to a lap dance, yet offered me a drink if I'd sit with him. I did. (I don't drink much, and I didn't then either, but I did enjoy the conversations) The guys were looking for empathy, and weren't getting it at home. That is the main thing. A caring, non-rushed ear that was entirely focused on them. For whatever reason, these married guys felt they could no longer get that from their wife.

So there you go.

I'll answer everything else tomorrow.

Oh, and karategrrl...I have so much to say on the men fearing us that I didn't want to try to jam it into this post. I'm tired, and there is a lot to say. We have a lot more power than we think. It was hard for me to bend my mind around, but I still get reminders of it, though I've not done this job for about nine years now. I don't know why, but men fear us. Mainly, above all else, they fear our rejection. And the rejection can take about a zillion forms..things we would not consider rejection at all. More on this tomorrow.

Thank you all so much. You are so great. Thank you for accepting me.
neurotic.nelly
Well, I feel like the odd woman standing out of the crowd here. I am a pro-sex, pro-sex industry feminist. Not that anyone here does, but, I do not hate men, and do not do a lot of male bashing, as I believe that as women, we all have our own demons or skeletons or psychology to deal with if anything in this world is going to change. /end rant.

I am, however, interested in hearing more from lightchested, it sounds like it is going to be good! I'll have the popcorn ready.

I became briefly acquainted with a stripper who once was a teacher and was going back to school for her master's degree, so she stripped to pay for school. She was a woman of privilege on almost every level. The thing about her that I found confusing was that she seemed to take her job home with her. Like she always seemed to be "on" if you get my drift. It was weird.
karategrrl
QUOTE(lightchested @ Mar 11 2009, 03:39 AM) *
The ones in groups tend to be boisterous and misogynistic.

I HAAAAAATE that behavior. That has to be one of the earliest things I ever learned--that men act like dickheads in groups. It's like their collective IQ goes down as their numbers go up. Early on, I learned to AVOID like the plague men in groups if I wanted to be left alone and not harassed.

QUOTE(lightchested @ Mar 11 2009, 03:39 AM) *
But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. ...They would look away the whole time.

<sigh.> My dream man. sad.gif They DO exist.
karategrrl
forgot to mention before--
lightchested, I have to fess up and say that I was much more willing to hear you out about the stripping because:

1. I already knew through your posts that you were very intelligent and already had made lots of good contributions
2. Your post was so brutally honest and you made no excuses
3. Your motivation to work as a stripper was to "blow it out from the inside" and even as you did it you asked thought-provoking questions of the men, didn't force the shy ones into dances, etc. Even in the midst of it, you showed class.

I must admit I wouldn't have been so open to what you had to say otherwise.
angie_21
Lightchested, you could probably get funding to write that as an anthropological study! It is so silly that we hide these things away, when so many women and men are a part of this industry, and it clearly does play a big role in our society. I think it is of huge importance to understanding martial relationships, women's rights, and basic human needs for love, sex, and affection (which are all tied together). You are clearly a strong person to actually have been able to say these things to the men there. Were you afraid you would get fired for scaring away the customers?

I think it is unfair to judge men for being there. Especially the lonely ones you talk about. As far as the married men, I am not at all surprised, and I think there are a lot of factors. one being that for a lot of men it is an acceptable form of "cheating" once they have been tied down to their wives, sometimes they don't even have to keep it a secret! But another is the old-fashioned idea of "lady on your arm but a slut in your bed." Getting into some huge stereotypes here... but I think a lot of men do want to marry the smart, capable, and loving woman, but of course also want sexual gratification, and maybe they think they can't respect their wives if they objectify them the way they do strippers, maybe sometimes their wives think the same thing. I have no problem with my SO objectifying me, so long as he respects me too, but sadly, sometimes it takes a pretty open mind to be able to combine these 2 things, or at least, it sure does where I come from... Maybe also their wives are too tired from raising children all day to be able to provide the gratification they want, which is where I start thinking, this is bullsh*t.

QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 11 2009, 06:25 AM) *
<sigh.> My dream man. sad.gif They DO exist.

They do exist, I live with one of them. My SO has had to go to bikini bars and strip clubs occasionally while on the road for work (what kind of assholes meet up at the strip club after a days' work to socialize with their co-workers? grr), bachelor parties, etc. Some small-town places in Alberta, they throw dollar coins at the girls, actually hitting them, and they have to pick them up off the floor after the dance. It is horrible, it made him feel sick, and he hates going to those kinds of places. He loves women, loves womens' bodies, and thinks they should be loved and respected at all times. The idea of having to pay for a woman's atention makes him pretty sad, and he doesn't understand why some men actually seem to be proud that this is the only way they can get a girl to look at them. He would never get a lapdance and knows I would consider it cheating (unless we were in vegas and I was there lol... but we would have to know somehow that we were at a place where the girls were not being mistreated so I dunno if that will be happening) Anyways, I am a lucky girl.
honeybunch
QUOTE
But you can usually find one guy in each group- every time just one- who is uncomfortable being there, and feels bad about his significant other, as though he's cheating on her. He doesn't look around, and he doesn't get dances. ...They would look away the whole time.


God please send me that guy!
karategrrl
QUOTE(angie_21 @ Mar 11 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Were you afraid you would get fired for scaring away the customers?

I was also curious--did any patrons complain? did management say anything to you?

QUOTE(angie_21 @ Mar 11 2009, 03:28 PM) *
for a lot of men it is an acceptable form of "cheating" once they have been tied down to their wives

QUOTE(angie_21 @ Mar 11 2009, 03:28 PM) *
I think a lot of men do want to marry the smart, capable, and loving woman, but of course also want sexual gratification

I do have issue with these mindsets. If a man considers marriage as being "tied down," he has no business doing it in the first place. If he isn't getting sexual gratification within his marriage, that's a problem that should be addressed. (And if he can't feel "gratified" without objectifying a female stranger, he needs therapy.)

Go ahead and strike me down, but I feel so strongly on this topic I can't NOT comment. Many men feel they have a need or right to "get something" outside of marriage, and strip clubs provide just the right way for them to get it, since it's technically not "cheating" (they believe) unless they actually complete a sex act with one of the girls.

Not all strippers--but many--stick their breasts in the guys faces and allow the men to suck them; they rub the guy's dick through his pants (with her hand or by straddling him*); they touch him all over and he touches them all over. Other any other circumstances it would be wrong but because the guy is paying for it, it somehow becomes okay? I seriously doubt most men would really be alright with anyone doing any of that to their wives in any other social situation--whether the wife was paying for it or not. Total double standard. My personal feeling, which I am entitled to, is that such places are a total slap in the face to marriage and encourage cheating and behavior that is disrespectful to women--the patrons' wives and the dancers.

* Much as people would like to think this isn't "sex," this is a sexual act called "frottage."
angie_21
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 11 2009, 11:08 AM) *
Total double standard. My personal feeling, which I am entitled to, is that such places are a total slap in the face to marriage and encourage cheating and behavior that is disrespectful to women--the patrons' wives and the dancers.

* Much as people would like to think this isn't "sex," this is a sexual act called "frottage."

I just want to clarify that I was definitely not defending anyones actions by anything I said. I just taking a guess at might be what is going through their minds, and possibly explaining why they are there. I tried to do it without passing judgement, but my own opinion was expressed at the end where I stated that I do consider it cheating and would not stand for it if my SO took part in any activities at a strip club. I am not sure if this was clear or not. Why other women do stand for it boggles the mind. Why some men think it's alright to cheat, well, there are probably hundreds of reasons they use to justify it to themselves.

My understanding is that many strip clubs are a legally condoned place of prostitution, whether it involves actual intercourse in the private rooms or "just" sexal touching. And many probably aren't. But men and women both are never going to stop wanting sex, its one of our most basic and instinctive needs. Where do you draw the line between consentual sexual contact, with added benefits for the woman, and objectification and exploitation? It gets confusing because often what is happening is all of these things at once. There are obvious examples, if anyone is physically hurt or things become nonconsentual, but how do you define consent, anyways? Agreeing to do something is far different than genuinely wanting to.

QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 11 2009, 11:08 AM) *
I seriously doubt most men would really be alright with anyone doing any of that to their wives in any other social situation--whether the wife was paying for it or not.

In his fantasy world, mine would absolutely love it. Who knows what he would think in reality.
karategrrl
Hey angie_21, hope it didn't come across that I was having issue with what you said--I wasn't. And I value yours and everyone's opinions here.

I should clarify that I haven't arrived at my feelings about porn/strip clubs/etc. from growing up Mormon or being frigid or anything (nothing against Mormons). Rather, I've gone through all that shit with many partners, and I've seen it--over and over--take on a pattern where it intensifies: you start with magazines but at some point they aren't enough--you need moving pictures and sound--so it goes up a level to porn movies. Then eventually that's not enough so it evolves into strip clubs b/c the guy has to have a real woman he can interact with. Then a "hands-off" woman isn't enough, so it goes a step further into cheating/threesomes/prostitutes etc. I was, at one time, pretty far off the deep end with all that shit with one partner in particular. I finally reached the point where I realized it had totally destroyed any semblance of trust. I tried like hell to get the trust back and on some level I feel he did want things to go back to the very loving, monogamous way they had once been, but it was too late. You simply cannot go backwards with some things.

Because I've experienced this over and over I'd be an idiot not to take note. I finally got married--something I'd always been somewhat afraid of--and I sure as shit am not willing to even take that kind of chance with my marriage. I care too much.

Marriage can be challenging enough without men saying it "ties them down" or there being so many ways men can quickly and easily get their nut off (sans wife) via cyberspace/strip clubs, etc. Marriage is supported economically in this country (U.S). but definitely not socially.
lightchested
I wasn't afraid of being fired, mainly because, at least in the city I live/worked, strippers pay the establishment for the "right" to work there. I know this sounds crazy, but it's true. The "classier" the place, the higher the required tip-out. One fee goes to "the house" for providing a venue for the woman to "perform". (It's not just you...I'm gagging as I write this.) Then there is a mandatory tip to the DJ. I learned the hard way not to scrimp on this one: DJ's will play the exact songs you want when you're on stage IF you've been good to them. They give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but once you establish yourself as a bad (or God forbid forgetful) tipper, your dancing becomes more and more "challenged" by songs that sound more like funeral dirges than whatever type of music you're actually into. To this day when I hear Bon Jovi's "Dead or Alive", I have a knee-jerk reaction to opt for "dead" (try figuring out how to "dance" to that song!), but then, thankfully, remember that I now have the power to turn that song OFF!

Those are the two only fees you generally need to pay in a crappy bar. I don't know the going rates today, but about ten years ago, the house would charge between $60-$80, and you'd stay in good with a DJ if you gave him about $20-$30. And you have to pay the guy who walks you to your car. I forget what they call that guy. He gets about $5. He opens your car door if he's gunning for a tenner, but if he eventually figures out you're only good for five, he stops opening your door.

So the first hundred dollars a stripper makes per shift is for the "right to work there". It was always a great feeling when you realized you were out of the red, and any money you made for the rest of your shift, you'd get to take home. Yes, this is disgusting.

In "nicer" "establishments" (Someone made the comment earlier, and I agree, that "gentlemen's club" is an oxymoron. Even the bare word "establishment" is sickeningly sugar coated in my opinion.) But anyway, in nicer "establishments", you also have to pay a coat check girl (always a girl), and an agent that is thrust upon you. (Yes, an agent. Please.) If you do not come with your own agent, your fine establishment will supply one for you. LIke a court appointed attourney. An expensive salacious one.
karategrrl
QUOTE(lightchested @ Mar 12 2009, 02:14 AM) *
They give you the benefit of the doubt at first, but once you establish yourself as a bad (or God forbid forgetful) tipper, your dancing becomes more and more "challenged" by songs that sound more like funeral dirges than whatever type of music you're actually into. To this day when I hear Bon Jovi's "Dead or Alive", I have a knee-jerk reaction to opt for "dead" (try figuring out how to "dance" to that song!), but then, thankfully, remember that I now have the power to turn that song OFF!

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Bwahahaha!! You are so totally cracking me up!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

But seriously, Omigod. Ridiculous, having to pay off all those people for the "honor" of dancing nekkid/topless. <sigh.> But yeah, after that $100 (or whatever it is now) everything you made was gravy. And, as much as I don't agree with stripping, I admit I sure as hell have had my moments (brief ones, yes, but moments nonetheless) where I actually considered it. For mad money, who wouldn't?

Also, strippers also have to buy all their own outfits, shoes, accessories, implants (if they choose to get them) etc. They're tax deductions, but still, moulah out of your pocket up front. Yow.


Change of topic:
I was thinking this morning how amazing this forum is--okay, technically, it's the "small breast support group" but the breast size issue has connected to so many other issues/topics, and everyone has so many interesting insights. Though I may not always agree with others' opinions, I have a fascination with learning others' opinions. Even if don't change my mind, I really enjoy understanding why people feel the way they do.
Allison-Shine
QUOTE(Aithinne @ Jan 29 2009, 03:34 AM) *
Hey ladies, forgive me for being off topic, but I stumbled on this site and had to talk about it, even though I think I've ranted about it before, it's still a topic that raises my hackles...

http://www.progressiveu.org/230819-skinny-v-curvy-girls
Found this website while surfing the net and loved it, agreed with a lot of it, except for the part where the author says that larger women don't ever get picked on. A lot of the comments on the article at the bottom were talking about how it is unequivocally more difficult to be a curvy woman than a naturally thin woman, but I don't know if that statement is true. We all have different experiences. For one woman (and I know from personal experience), being thin can be just as big of a confidence kill as being curvy would be for a larger woman. They are flip sides of the size coin, but I disagree that the two experiences can be compared. Everyone is different- what isn't a big deal for one person may be a huge deal to another.

At least curvy women are seen as womanly and feminine! Naturally thin and also small breasted women often feel like they can't claim a huge portion of their identity: being a woman. And I'm sorry, If you really think about it, feeling like a pubescent and not a woman, even though you are one, can be just as damaging as feeling like you aren't accepted for being larger. Both sides can feel like they will never be wanted and loved. The grass is NOT always greener.

And that is my rant for the day.


I know where you are coming from Aithinne...

As a slender, smaller-busted woman, I have been dealing with these issues for the past several years. It did not help matters much when my teenage sis (i'm now 23, shes 16) developed way beyond what I physically have (and this occurred 2-3 years ago). I'm not just talking breasts, but height and the curves that go along with what is considered "womanly and feminine".

Physically, I can blend in with 14-17 year old girls. It is good to look younger than your years but not to the point of where you are still thought of by many as a girl and not a woman. Its staggering to me sometimes how a girl can have an woman's body and vice-versa.
Aithinne
I'm not surprised that we have so many topics to discuss on this small-breast forum. Since it is connected with feelings of femininity, desire, attraction, etc., I can see how the struggle or success in having small boobies can trickle into many other important areas of life. I like coming here because when I'm feeling down, you ladies slap me upside the head and show me how dumb I'm being (in a nice way, of course).. lol.

karategrrl
lightchested, I had "Dead or Alive" stuck in my head all day yesterday. Thanks a lot!!! HAHAHAHA! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
karategrrl
Hi ladies, forgive me if anyone's already mentioned this, but I just discovered swimwear from the Gap that has a lot of small-bust-flattering varieties of tops, and is also sold by bra size. I can't believe this is in a 36A, for example:

http://www.gap.com/browse/product.do?cid=3...&pid=625484

Here are more styles:
http://www.gap.com/browse/category.do?cid=...p;clink=1062460

And not all are padded, either!! And they're not crazy-expensive.

Enjoy swimwear shopping!
KeraBear
QUOTE(Allison-Shine @ Mar 12 2009, 09:53 PM) *
I know where you are coming from Aithinne...

As a slender, smaller-busted woman, I have been dealing with these issues for the past several years. It did not help matters much when my teenage sis (i'm now 23, shes 16) developed way beyond what I physically have (and this occurred 2-3 years ago). I'm not just talking breasts, but height and the curves that go along with what is considered "womanly and feminine".

Physically, I can blend in with 14-17 year old girls. It is good to look younger than your years but not to the point of where you are still thought of by many as a girl and not a woman. Its staggering to me sometimes how a girl can have an woman's body and vice-versa.


I totally feel you on this one! My lil sis is 14 and already rockin' the C cups! mellow.gif Not to mention hips. Me? I am short with a boyish figure. I had always a bit of a complex over this, which was further complicated when lil sis started her period before me. Because when you start your period, people are all like, "Congrats, you are a woman now" you know? Whatever.

Anyways, I am slowly reaching a point of accepting our differences and how we are both beautiful, but damn, swimsuit season sure does make it difficult to do that sometimes!
loonydaray
karategrrl! i love you for posting that swimsuit link! biggrin.gif
starship
QUOTE(KeraBear @ Mar 16 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Anyways, I am slowly reaching a point of accepting our differences and how we are both beautiful, but damn, swimsuit season sure does make it difficult to do that sometimes!


ah, im holidaying with some cousins this year. including 13 year olds who already have bigger boobs and look way older than me. hence choice of bikini being oh-so critical. it's strange because ive never felt bad about having smallers breasts than my older cousins, but theres just something irksome about a child 'overtaking' me.

ooh, gap do have some cute bikinis karategrrl. i dont think they deliver to the UK so ill have to check out the store next time im shopping

i remember alot of you knew quite abit about working out so i just wanted to ask whatsort of exercises would help me tone up abit without losing loads of weight. its the first time ive ever put a little weight on and i kinda like it but i could do with just firming up a tad ???
edie52
I'll take the "demi" top and the ruched bottoms, plz!

In other news, I'm about to go pose nude for some photos (nothing lewd, it's someone I know from school who is doing slightly abstracted full-body nudes- by abstracted I mean dancer-type body shapes, form a distance). Anyway, even though it's not supposed to be "sexy", I'm still nervous! Eek! But I believe in the cause and want to challenge my self-consciousness.
KeraBear
QUOTE(starship @ Mar 16 2009, 02:32 PM) *
theres just something irksome about a child 'overtaking' me.


Heh... Yeah, I even know some 6th graders who have out boobed me. *sigh* It's just not right...
starship
QUOTE(KeraBear @ Mar 16 2009, 10:44 PM) *
Heh... Yeah, I even know some 6th graders who have out boobed me. *sigh* It's just not right...


haha i've been out boobed

wow edie that sounds awesome. id love the chance to see myself through someone elses eyes. cant wait to find out how it goes:)
karategrrl
QUOTE(edie52 @ Mar 16 2009, 09:26 PM) *
In other news, I'm about to go pose nude for some photos (nothing lewd, it's someone I know from school who is doing slightly abstracted full-body nudes- by abstracted I mean dancer-type body shapes, form a distance). Anyway, even though it's not supposed to be "sexy", I'm still nervous! Eek! But I believe in the cause and want to challenge my self-consciousness.

That's awesome. Do let us know how it goes. I've kind of always wanted to do something artsy like that. When I was modeling (brief stint) I hoped to do something along those lines and checked the box for "artistic nude" when I signed up with one of the agencies. Then I got a call from them, saying Playboy was looking for women for a "naturals" special edition. Turns out Playboy and soft-core porn are considered "artistic nudes." laugh.gif Bwah hahahaha!

And no, I said no. wink.gif I'll live vicariously through you, edie. smile.gif
honeybunch
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Mar 17 2009, 09:16 AM) *
That's awesome. Do let us know how it goes. I've kind of always wanted to do something artsy like that. When I was modeling (brief stint) I hoped to do something along those lines and checked the box for "artistic nude" when I signed up with one of the agencies. Then I got a call from them, saying Playboy was looking for women for a "naturals" special edition. Turns out Playboy and soft-core porn are considered "artistic nudes." laugh.gif Bwah hahahaha!

And no, I said no. wink.gif I'll live vicariously through you, edie. smile.gif

Wow! laugh.gif Maybe I should go back to Talent6, and see if Playboy will contact me as well. I will admit, awhile back I' was interested in being body painted.

Okay, I'm trying to wrap my head around this still. I've brought this up before- my one co-worker, one who already has a boob job. She now wants lipo and a nose job. She also wants other surgeries that aren't cosmetic like LASIK. Everything she wants totals $20,000. Not that it's my business, but I wish she could just be happy with the boob job. In a way I'm grateful that I met her b/c it proves having all that surgery doesn't make you happy for the long term.

I also think it's bogus to spend that much money on all that. She admits she had boobs to begin with, she wasn't ever flat chested. If I had even the $4,000 it costed for the boob implants, I'd much rather spend it on a home gym and other sporty stuff!!!
Allison-Shine
QUOTE(starship @ Mar 16 2009, 02:32 PM) *
ah, im holidaying with some cousins this year. including 13 year olds who already have bigger boobs and look way older than me. hence choice of bikini being oh-so critical. it's strange because ive never felt bad about having smallers breasts than my older cousins, but theres just something irksome about a child 'overtaking' me.

ooh, gap do have some cute bikinis karategrrl. i dont think they deliver to the UK so ill have to check out the store next time im shopping

i remember alot of you knew quite abit about working out so i just wanted to ask whatsort of exercises would help me tone up abit without losing loads of weight. its the first time ive ever put a little weight on and i kinda like it but i could do with just firming up a tad ???


I have seen in my expereince girls as young as 13-14 "overtaking" me as well or at least on the verge of doing so. My latest experience was seeing this with an 11-year old I met. She is a daughter of a friend of one of my girlfriend's. When I met her face to face she was already an inch taller than me and a B cup (34B according to her mom) like me and I was like "whoa!" lol ohmy.gif It made me quiver. Her mom is a tall and larger woman, so we all had a good idea of how big she will get when its all said and done.

Regarding diet & excercise, I have started eating a higher protien diet and my workouts include some weight training, espically with weight machines that isolate certain areas of my body. I have seen the best results in leg excercises in my glutes and hips. But I still have not been able to enhance my (32B) bustline even after two years of exercising.
edie52
I had a weird dream that I saw this woman in a magazine that had had a boob transplant... she decided she wanted big ones, but not "fake," so she got someone's real breasts, like an organ donation. Then she popped out of the magazine and I started playing with her (really really large and perky) boobs, and realized how much fun they were to play with. I decided I wanted some too. However, when I woke up I realized I really didn't want a "boob transplant." A bit bigger, yes. But I rarely worry about it anymore.

The photo shoot went well- it's strange how quickly I got comfortable after disrobing, as if I were in front of my boyfriend or a doctor. It took about 2 hours. I was mistaken, they weren't taken from a distance, they were actually tight shots of body parts (mostly the torso), all with the head cut out. He was looking a lot at shadows and negative space, trying to abstract the body and also desexualize it (or at least not sexualize it overly like in most images we see, which he admitted was harder with the female form).
karategrrl
QUOTE(Allison-Shine @ Mar 18 2009, 07:04 AM) *
IBut I still have not been able to enhance my (32B) bustline even after two years of exercising.

Well, you can build up your chest muscles and thus sculpt the chest area. I have lost weight all over in the past couple of years, which has made my breasts, of course, smaller. Ironically, though, my chest looks better than before since I've also been hitting the chest area with weights. I actually have "cleavage" of sorts! My friend (whose perfectly sized B-cup breasts I envy) envies my muscle cleavage in return. Funny.

And yeah, honeybunch, that's true about your coworker--it seems she won't be happy with herself no matter what. Wow. Someone I know also had at least B-cups and she had hers augmented too. That and the little kiddies with breasts can get me nuts if I let it. Oh well. I must count my blessings. I have other things to be thankful for.

edie52, I wonder if you'd be willing to share any of the photos? Sounds like the guy was a true artist. Very refreshing.
karategrrl
I just saw this and had to share:

http://content.yieldmanager.edgesuite.net/...b3eb9e97959.gif

This is EXACTLY the kind of marketing that tells women they "aren't good enough" in order to sell products. Thin lips are UGLY??? Jolie looks good in the photo at right as well, though very different.

Yeah, thin lips are ugly. Small breasts are ugly. Large women are ugly. Too-large breasts are ugly. Disabled people are ugly. Might as well just come right out and say it. Ugh.
Allison-Shine
QUOTE(edie52 @ Mar 18 2009, 10:45 AM) *
I had a weird dream that I saw this woman in a magazine that had had a boob transplant... she decided she wanted big ones, but not "fake," so she got someone's real breasts, like an organ donation. Then she popped out of the magazine and I started playing with her (really really large and perky) boobs, and realized how much fun they were to play with. I decided I wanted some too. However, when I woke up I realized I really didn't want a "boob transplant." A bit bigger, yes. But I rarely worry about it anymore.



I have kidded about "boob transplants" in jest at times but have never dreamt it. Suprised that hasn't happened yet, LOL
hcbeck
QUOTE(KeraBear @ Mar 16 2009, 10:44 PM) *
Heh... Yeah, I even know some 6th graders who have out boobed me. *sigh* It's just not right...


Many men have a related problem, they worry that have been 'out ****ed' by adolescent boys... tongue.gif
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