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knorl05
djbiz: yep, i know exactly what you mean. that's the main reason i dont go braless - with my thick runners legs and curvy booty it just feels unbalanced to me. if i were total waif like all over it would not be a big deal at all.. cause i actually like the way my titties look (and i personally like smaller boobs anyway.) but we are for sure not represented well in the media at all. oh wait, there's that girl from clueless... what's her name.. Elisa Donovan.. she's got a meatier body with smaller boobs.

you know what, actually i think a lot of athletes and healthy women have bodies more like us than the waifs. so whatevs. the older i get the more i realize it's really a matter of overall attractiveness. small boobs, big boobs, small ass, little ass... i've noticed real men really do look at the total package. i'm sure we all know the women who are amazing women who are never in a short supply of anything in life because they've just got the best attitude ever, regardless of how she looks.
karategrrl
"i couldn't stand it, karategrrl and i went ahead and bought that t-shirt, though i don't know if i'd have the guts to wear it in public. then again, i'm going to be in new orleans, where the bar across the street from my office is frequented by a man who always wears a cow suit. no joke. "

Haha! Good for you, DJ!!!! I'd go ahead and wear it in New Orleans--it'd be a great alternative to that ridiculous "show yer tits" phenomenon there. Small tits or not, I do not understand that.

I am still tempted to get one, though I am trying to minimize my spending lately.
dj-bizmonkey
i'm wearing it right now, from the safety of my bedroom, but the material is nice and soft and stretchy. my mom thought it was hilarious.

knorl, yeah, i agree, alot of athletes have a more filled out bottom half due to muscle and exercise and those same things tend to limit or reduce breast size. the most extreme case would be gymnasts (sp?).

while i was getting on the plane to come back to the states yesterday, i passed a woman who had an almost identical body type to me only she was a little heavier. we totally gave eachother the up and down and then she smiled at me in that knowning way, as if to say, 'see, you're not the only one.'
Jaymi
Ahhh hahaha - I'm a newbie and am SO EXCITED to find this thread. I'm so conscientious about my little boobs. I have always had a small chest, but this year I lost weight and they shrank even more! I was so bummed to find that I'm now down to an a-cup, and barely that. I use these wonderbras that make a difference. They have these gel inserts in the bottom that kinda boost up what little I have. The great thing is I don't have to wear a bra when I work out, not even when I jog, and that's a lovely freedom.

I've been really struggling with accepting the fact that I have tiny boobs and there's nothing I can do about it, so just enjoy them. I'm glad there's this thread where I can get some support - in many senses of the word. wink.gif
karategrrl
Jaymi, welcome! This board is my little oasis of sanity in a breast-obsessed world. Welcome to the fold.
Jaymi
Thanks for such a warm welcome karategirl!
dj-bizmonkey
yes, welcome indeed jaymi! i was overjoyed when i first found this thread and the all the ladies on bust seem to give such sage advice and are superhelpful, don't hesistate to get your angst out here!
karategrrl
I finally found the Jane mag where Milla Jovovich posed pregnant/nude. She says, "Now that I'm pregnant, I love my boobs." Does that mean she didn't love them before? That's disappointing. Grrr.
LilMissStrange
Welcome to the board Jaymi!
I've noticed in the media too that any girl that has small boobs is also super skinny. I can tell you from personal experience that this is not the case! I wear a 36A on top and generally a size 10-12 on the bottom. My least favorite thing besides bra shopping is trying on dresses. It's automatically assumed that if you have a big booty you'll have tits to match :/ This topic kinda reminded me of a conversation my aunt had with a woman at a clothing shop. My aunt at that point in her life was over weight and woman commented to her that she "had such small breasts for a fat woman". What an asshole....

Hey does anyone remember that TLC video for the song 'Unpretty'? I remember seeing it in high school and it was one of the few positive body image messages I ever saw in a music video. In part of it Chilli's 'BF' tries to convince her that she needs implants and she goes to the doctors and sees how horrible the procedure is and realizes that she is fine the way she is....then goes home and kicks out her piece of shit boyfriend smile.gif

I love youtube btw: http://youtube.com/watch?v=4ejX0q3s0yY
knorl05
lilmiss: cos im a super dork.... when that song was popular it used to make me cry. yeah. ok still does. we need more positive messages/influences that speak the truth. another one that makes me fired up is I Am Not My Hair by India Arie. it's like FUCK. no. i'm not going to let these things define me no matter how much the rest of the world is programmed to think they matter.
karategrrl
I also love the "Unpretty" video. I posted about it awhile back, I think. All those girls were/are so hot...and small-boobed! I will watch the India Arie video!
Jaymi
aww - I feel very welcome. Thank you ladies!

I don't remember that song, "Unpretty." I'll have to look it up. But the title reminds me of "Not A Pretty Girl," which was my anthem when I was 16. Ani Difranco also has normal (small) boobs. yay!

I saw Claire Danes on Jay Leno the other night and was so excited because she has little boobs too and has such a hot body! Seeing someone as attractive, and then later realizing that they don't necessarily fit the mold people have for "perfect" is so refreshing! Yay for Claire Danes.
knorl05
ani difranco and claire danes are the shit..
karategrrl
Hey, has anyone else seen the movie "300?" It truly is a "guy" movie (I saw it with my husband), but the women in the movie were all SMALL breasted and natural!!!!! It's shocking, really, when you consider that it's a hollywood film (I do believe) and a GUY flick too! There were exposed-breast scenes with 2 different women, and they both looked like MEEEE!

I was all poised to see pounds of silicone and it was quite refreshing to see normal, natural-sized women. The story takes places in ancient Greece and I am impressed that they took the historical accuracy right down to the breast size--I mean, they didn't have implants then, right? (Those were the days!!!)

Speaking of movies, did I mention the film, "Breasts: A Documentary?" You can find it on Netflix. Very interesting--just a fairly low-bidget indie documentary featuring women of all sizes, shapes, colors and ages talking about their breasts and their breast experiences. Many appear topless.


Hey, knorl, thanks for the India Arie song tip. It is awesome!! Let's just love ourselves, whether we be white, black, large- or small-breasted, etc.
anonymoose96
[quote name='karategrrl' date='Aug 7 2007, 01:51 PM' post='165012']
Hey, has anyone else seen the movie "300?" It truly is a "guy" movie (I saw it with my husband), but the women in the movie were all SMALL breasted and natural!!!!! It's shocking, really, when you consider that it's a hollywood film (I do believe) and a GUY flick too! There were exposed-breast scenes with 2 different women, and they both looked like MEEEE!



I noticed that too. the great thing is that I've watched this movie with large groups of guys twice (once in theater and one at their frat house) and no one mentioned anything about size. actually they were too busy choosing which nude scene they liked better lol.
knorl05
mos def karategrrl.. and thank you for the 300 tip. i had no desire to see it but with what you mentioned i think it would be worth checking out. make me feel a touch closer to normal.
knorl05
rachael ray today was about young women having plastic surgery.... this one girl was seventeen and she had her boobs, lips and skin done. she said the main reason she had it done is because she had no boobs before and she would wake up everyday feeling bad about herself. she then proceeded to say that it's undeniable we live in an image conscious society and that if what she did makes her feel good about herself she is fine with it. and she was all fucking convinced she had all the answers. but the truth is that if more women challenged society's unrealistic ideal of beauty and embraced and respected their own bodies then maybe we wouldnt be a culture obsessed with perfection and preconceived ideas of sexuality. you know the only reason we are this way as a whole is because of the individuals contributing to the whole. how about instead of getting your boobs done you work on yourself and learn to feel good about yourself independent of your image? if she keeps this mentality into adulthood she's just going to be another insecure woman who runs to her plastic surgeon to make her feel good about herself instead of looking inside herself for her well being. and whatevs thats how it is but it just shows me that when women feed into the misconceptions they are in fact perpetuating them for the sake of their own narcissism. if you cant beat em join em. pshh
Lotus0910
Hey everyone.. I'm new here and had absolutely no idea that something like this existed! It's so nice to see other women who are digging in their heels and saying "NO!" to plastic surgery. I am not deformed! I'm a 34A and while yeah it stinks sometimes that I'm always referred to as 'cute' rather than 'sexy' or 'gorgeous', or that clothes are generally cut for women with large busts and I look like a ten year old, I refuse to cut open my body to fit someone else's standard pf beauty. What sort of example are we giving to our next generation of women?
dj-bizmonkey
hey ladies, sorry i've been MIA, i'm on vacation with the fam and sr. monkey in the mountains. i've managed to steal a bit of time by myself to surf the interweb in a little coffee shop downtown. i haven't see 300, but for the most part have gotten mixed reviews from people. i guess i'll have to check it out soon, especially if it is full of so many hot chicks.

i have always loved Claire Danes, ever since the My So Called Life days. You know, she isn't a total waif, I mean, she's skinny for sure, but there is more meat on her than say, Selma Blair or Kate Hudson. I just saw her in a that super-cheesy fantasy movie 'Stardust,' which i enjoyed more than i should have.

i find it disturbing that a girl as young as 17 feels like she needs plastic surgery. you aren't even done developing yet! i look completely different in my face and body than i did when i was 17. i'm with ya knorl (as per usual) and Lotus (welcome welcome welcome!). the only way we can change the direction of the culture is to refuse to participate in this part of it. youth, beauty, everything is so fleeting, one day you wake up and your 60, wrinkly, droopy, chubby and all the rest. why waste your youth on worrying about body image. beyond the breast obsession, the weight obsession i find equally upsetting. the emphasis is always on being thin and not on being HEALTHY. come on! i'd rather be healthy and be my regular size than too fat or too thin and be sickly. what was the perspective of the show on the girl's choice for surgery? were they promoting it? ok, i am being totally distracted at this moment, but it will try and write again later when i have time and am more collected.
ginger_kitty
knorl, that's freaking crazy! Seventeen is way to young to have plastic surgery. I didn't even have a clue of who I was at that age. There should be guidelines with age restrictions on plastic surgery.

Ditto on the Claire Danes luv! I am always happy when celebrities are with small chests are considered sexy. To me big boobs doesn't not necessarily equate hotness, it's just a part of the absurd "Barbie doll" imagine women are supposed to be.

Today, I overheard someone at work say something like, 'if a man says he doesn't like big boobs, it means he is gay.' And was so totally disgusted.
greenbean
Eww, Ginger-Kitty! What type of person said that? Thats one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.
karategrrl
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Aug 10 2007, 04:05 AM) *
the truth is that if more women challenged society's unrealistic ideal of beauty and embraced and respected their own bodies then maybe we wouldnt be a culture obsessed with perfection and preconceived ideas of sexuality.


Grrl, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I watched another guy movie with the hubby last night--Shadow Man (Steven Segal). Horrible movie, but (of course--it's a guy flick) there were scenes of half-naked chicks in a strip club. That was not surprising, but what was surprising was the fact that all the girls were natural. Hubby knows how I feel about the implant bullshit and commented, "hey, no silicone!" I felt good that they were natural but of course, jealous at my hubby watching objectified naked chicks. (My jealous/insecure side coming out...Grrrr. Wish I had a way to deal with that...)

Lotus, welcome!!!!! laugh.gif

I love all you gals. I wish we could all get together! But that's okay--this board keeps me going!!!
knorl05
lotus: welcome, glad you've found us!

dj biz: nice! how's the vaca going, it sounds like it would be fantastic! biggrin.gif
another thing i love about claire daines is that she's always seemed to maintain her character and integrity through the years. there are very few actresses i can say i actually like based on their off-screen persona and she is one of them. i actually got excited about seeing stardust so i'm glad it's good. wink.gif i've never been into fantasy novels, but for some reason the imagery in these type of movies does great things for my imagination.

so the show was only discussing kids getting plastic surgery, it wasnt discouraging it or advocating it. there was actually a 12 y/o on the show who had had lipo! and an expert who said that kids should wait until they are done growing to decide on ps because so many changes are happening in their body that could cause complications. that's why i was so irritated with the girls who had the surgery done, they acted so convinced that what they did was the best thing in the world. i think the show, although not directly supporting it, sent the message that ps is ok. (i could go off on a tangent but i wont;))

i love what you said dj biz, "beyond the breast obsession, the weight obsession i find equally upsetting. the emphasis is always on being thin and not on being HEALTHY." because it is soo so true. unfortunately from a young age girls are preoccupied with being a pretty princess, or like ginger mentioned, a barbie doll. our society and our culture raises us with these whack ideas and then judges us and condemns us if we either dont fit the bill, or alternately, if we do.

karategrrl: smile.gif re: "Grrrr. Wish I had a way to deal with that..." one thing that's always kept me cool about these situations is knowing that my guy is neither with those girls, nor does he want to be, he's only looking at them. not to say i think there is anything wrong with entertainers necessarily.. it could be a woman on the street.. point i'm making is that men come across a lot of women throughout the day. if you choose a man who respects your feelings and beliefs, you really have no reason to worry about anybody else. that's always been my thought on the matter anyway. hope it helps some?

ps. i do concur. busties are amazing women!
Jaymi
Welcome to Lotus - I had the same reaction as you when I found this board.

17 and having plastic surgery....so sad - makes me wonder how scary she'll look by the time she's 40. I admit, in high school I had fantasies of getting a boob job. But now, I'm pretty fine with little boobs, especially since I know all the pressure comes from physical expectations of outsiders, and not from any true insecurity about myself. I wear my lovely padded bras during the day, and can go free and easy the rest of the time. That's so much better than having scary foreign objects inside me!!

That is so lame about the "gay" remark. What a lame assumption to say that if a guy doesn't buy into the big boob thing, then he must not like women at all. ARG! There's SO much wrong with that statement.
Lotus0910
Thank you guys for your warm welcome! I have wanted to find a place like this for so long. There are so many outlets for large women and so much attention being focused on weight issues and the way that large women are portrayed in the media that if you are thin with small breasts you have become the enemy. I see book titles like "Skinny Women Are Evil" and "Real Women Have Curves" and it makes me feel like there is a secret club that I am not the member of. It has become acceptable to insult a woman for having small breasts and/or being naturally thin. We as women should be supporting eachother and realizing that yes, we are all made in different shapes and sizes and that includes being small too. Yes it is okay to have a little extra meat on your bones, just as okay as it is to have small breasts or be naturally rail thin. I have gone to message boards and literally been attacked to the point of leaving whan mentioning such a subject. I also feel that I can't mention how I feel to even my closest of friend at times because I will get the standard "Must be nice!" comment or the 'Poor little thin girl' attitude. Why is that okay? It's not.

Do any of you guys feel as triumphant as I do when you see a celebrity or other public figure who has small breasts and just doesn't care? I feel so empowered to see women like Gwen Stefani, Kate Hudson, and Debra Messing strutting their A cups and being proud of them. They must have had a huge amount of pressure placed on them to get implants at one time in their carreer. Hell yes to them for not caving in, and hell yes to us! I will not conform!
anonymoose96
I know it's silly but I always feel a little hurt when I see book titles and movie titles like that too. Pretty much the only person that can commiserate with me on the too-skinny thing is actually one of my guy friends who also eats like a horse but can't gain any weight. However, talking with him about small boobs is out of the question obviously lol. It is good to have this forum to go to where no one's going to tear you apart for being the way you are naturally.
knorl05
lotus: right on. everything you said. especially about being attacked for being small. same thing happened to me on myspace. people were so cruel when i started a group topic about having a smaller frame.. they were like (and this sounds absurd i know but its true) go kill yourself then. i brought up the same point about "real women have curves" oh, i must not be a real woman then. i mean its hard enough not feeling quite as feminine as other women, but then to have all these overly voluptuous women come together and say that we're not real women. it's insulting. we hear the ignorance enough from men about big boobs, it's awful when these supposedly strong women feel the need to judge us as well. they think that because we are small we have no right to have issues with our bodies. granted, there are good things about being small, but it doesnt mean that it's the perfect condition. they simply cant understand. i guess the thing that we ALL have to remember, big or small, is that we really shouldnt give into the belief that our worth rests in our pant or bra size. that who we are is more than just our flesh. i think if more women embraced this concept they wouldnt be as worried about being in competition with one another. i think if more women were happy with who they are as people, they wouldnt try so hard to prove they are attractive or beautiful. afterall, i truly truly believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

anonymooose: so true.
karategrrl
You all brought up a great point about the thinness issue. Small breasts are not only a thin-woman thing, though--as a few women here have mentioned, it is possible to have small breasts and a larger frame.

I do feel strongly about being attacked for being thin--it's been something that's happened to me a LOT. I wrote a blog about it a couple years ago that I'll post here if anyone would like to read it, but honestly I don't know if that would be getting totally off-topic.

There is always going to be someone that vents their own insecurity by attacking or bringing attention to OTHERS--whether the issue is supposedly breast size, body type/shape/size, skin color, age, gender, etc.
knorl05
karategrrl.. good point.

further to our discussion about men's attraction to breast size being something inherited or a result of our social conditioning... i found an article in psychology today (august07), which discusses this issue.

"until very recently, it was a mystery to evolutionary psychology why men prefer women with large breasts, since the size of a woman's breasts has no relationship to her ability to lactate. but harvard anthropologist frank marlowe contends that larger, and hence heavier, breasts sag more conspicuously with age than do smaller breasts. thus they make it easeir for men to judge a woman's age (and her reproductive value) by sight - suggesting why men find women with large breasts more attractive."

i mean whatever, just another psychologist's opinion, based on his theories and experiments to support his theories.. but it's something to consider.. make you go.. hmm.
karategrrl
Interesting, Knorl. Makes me think of artifacts archeologist have dug up from tombs and such, showing pottery/sculpture of women with ginormous breasts--fertility goddesses or something. I think there is something to this--that men are kind of hard-wired, subconsciously, to render larger-breasted women as more fertile and therefore a better choice for carrying/feeding his children. I remember a couple of boyfriends (gratefully not recently) who joked around with my boobs by pretending they were nursing on them...YICK! TOTAL turn-off! <<shudder>> Another ex once confessed that he had a busty teacher in grade school whom he had breastfeeding fantasies about. Obsessions with large breasts must be one of those "primal urge"-type things. That and the fact that I think we are usually most fascinated by those things that are most different from us. Men don't have breasts, so obviously therein lies at least some of the fascination.

Off-topic but worth venting about: I went to the supermarket last night to grab a missing cooking ingredient, rushed out without bra on, wearing strappy tank. Total lecherous, creepy asshole did that "walk by too close, check me out, and <whistle> thing...you know, where they quietly whistle as if they could be 1) whistling at you or; 2) whistling a song running through their (empty) head. I stared the motherfucker down, then made sure he didn't follow me home. Usually assholes back down when they see you aren't interested, but this waste of life kept getting too close. Must be a rapist or animal molester. Creep. In some small sense, I'm almost flattered I was noticed, but what is it with that type of whistle? (Ladies, I know you all know what I'm talking about.) Do guys go to "Asshole Techniques 101" to learn these things? They must, 'cuz it's like a universal thing I've experienced. I don't mind being checked out if it's subtle. I pretend I don't notice if a head turns, but I do. rolleyes.gif But the whistling thing? What am I, a dog?
Callani
I am soo glad to have found this thread. Last year I started uni and went from being in a very accepting environment at my school, to being labelled and downright insulted at every turn. I've been called "ironing board" by people I barely know (when it wouldn't be acceptable from anyone) I've been told that as a brunette I should dye my hair blonde if I want "in with a winning chance"! And girls (who would probably throttle me if I said that their extra weight was unhealthy) have been extremely rude about my size with some going as far as suggesting I had an eating disorder. I agree with lotus0901 and knorl05, I think it's totally unacceptable that any natural body size should be attacked by other women who complain about media prejudice.
The anorexia comments especially upset me, as an athlete I take great care to eat full and healthy meals and yes this does include salads but it also includes lots of proteins and carbs and even (shock horror!) fats otherwise I'm damn sure I wouldn't have the energy to do what I do. The other aspect that upsets me is how people carelessly use the word anorexia. People don't seem to realise that being anorexic isn't just wanting to diet, it means being mentally ill and seriously needing help.
Does anyone else get as offended as I do about this?
karategrrl
QUOTE(Callani @ Aug 31 2007, 10:57 AM) *
Does anyone else get as offended as I do about this?


Callani, I could have written your post myself! I, too, have been on the receiving end of the "anorexia" comments. My own damn parents, when I was a teen, used to almost monitor my eating because they were so uptight that I not develop an eating disorder. I mean, it's good that eating disorders have gotten people's attention, but that's ridiculous. and I've had the bullshit from people who are offended that I dare eat veggies. (I eat other things too--meats, fats, carbs.) I've had co-workers snoop into my brown-bag lunch to see what I was eating. What the FUCK!!??

"Ironing board"?????!!!! That sucks. You now, it sounds like you are attending school with a lot of very insecure people. Remember, too, that school just started and the girls might feel like they are "jockeying for position" as far as popularity, boys, etc. and are feeling even more competitive than usual. The fact that they are criticizing you reveals that they feel threatened by you. Sounds like you aren't doing anything to provoke it besides just being yourself, being athletic, and that alone makes them feel insecure. Being athletic, small-breasted, and brunette are not faults. these boneheads are trying to pick out anything to criticize and, frankly, the fact that that's all they can come up with is pretty darn pathetic.

Hang in there, grrl. Are you on any sports teams yet? I'm sure you'll find your place with some like-minded folks.

Hugs!

Callani
I actually started at uni last year, so I'm about to go into my second year and am (ever so slightly in my less secure moments) dreading going back. I used to be a gymnast but since the gymnasts at my uni actually compete in the Olympics I wasn't exactly up to level, so I became a cheerleader (*ducks from any feminist missiles*) which is actually a lot more athletic than I thought. But yeah, combined with being smaller people just presume I'm anorexic and it's so annoying. I'm like, seriously order me a pizza and give me Cadbury's and I will prove to you that I can eat...
Humpf.
But I totally understand the jockeying for position thing you talked about, last year it was plain ridiculous. I was like "ok is it acceptable here to be this rude?" But apparently it's the norm amongst the majority and it's so annoying. Oh I'm going to miss Brum life. *sigh*
Will be needing lots of support from bust people come October...
dj-bizmonkey
hey ladies, sorry i've been out of the loop (first year grad student). but i knew it was about time for me to check back in with y'all.

first, Callani, Knorl, Karategrrl, i am one of those larger women with small breasts, but i will also say that it completely unfair to demonize some one because of their genetics. coming from women, especially those who are supposed to know better, it just seems so counterproductive. i mean, how can you hate some one because of something that is 100% completely out of your power. how can you assume that they don't have the exact same body issues as you? come ON, people! skinny doesn't equal anorexic and throwing that term around so nonchalantly does disservice to the women who suffer from it.

ironing board? i've always heard that one in movies but never gotten it myself. i have gotten flat alot and also, 'well, you'd understand if you had boobs.' excuse me? i have them, they're there, they just don't cast a huge shadow, but i fucking have them.

as for the whole hardwiring of men's minds, i have to disaggree on this issue. we'd have to kick it back about six months to when the wise lapis and i were in a heated discussion about it. yes, i agree that breasts are a symbol of femininity, but i don't think that men are hardwired to be more attracted to big ones. it's cultural, and it's case by case. as i've said before, if we lived in a culture where women went topless, never wore bras and could nurse in public without fear of reprisal, breasts would lose their flare. they would be seen as more utilitarian. the whole nursing fantasy freaks me the fuck out. i'll bet those guys were bottle fed. especially in the USA, breastfeeding is somehow seen as taboo, mysterious or even sexual, which i find despicable. yes, breasts are great to have during sex, i like mine to be touched and doted upon, but in the end, their primary function is to feed babies. babies aren't thinking sexual thoughts, little baby boys don't get erections when they are fed, they are thinking, mmmm, i'm hungry and this is good and comforting!!! it's because we (the U.S.) were founded by uptight puritans and their stupid prudish morality pervades to this day. if we could see breasts most days, not only in an artful, beautiful way, but also doing what they are engineered to do the mystery might be dispelled and we wouldn't be as obsessed. breasts are beautiful, big and small. the female body is beautiful. i honestly think the bigger is better idea is just a trend of this last century. look at classic greco-roman art, look at medieval art, look at renaissance art, there are far more small breasted women represented than you would ever see today.

i have to disagree with that psychologists study, it sounds to me like a just-so story, he had his result and worked backwards. well riddle me this, if large breasts were such a stong feature of a attractiveness for all cultures, if men really were hardwired from the beginning to prefer large breasts, wouldn't we have been selected out by now? and why would the majority of asian, native american (both north, south, and central), and aboriginal women have small breasts? wouldn't that trait have been whittled down over the past 25,000 years? it doesn't make sense for it to be a hard-wired evolutionary concept because there is NO LINK between breast size and fertility, none whatsoever. and somehow, the forces of natural selection unconciously "know" what traits are linked to fertility (i.e. facial symmetry, waist to hip ratio, testosterone levels- strong jaw lines, larger muscles) and those traits are universal (more or less) features of attractiveness between the sex.

ok, this turned into a rant, i'm sorry, but i just had the epiphany. i'm taking a class on modern human variation, maybe i'll learn something more about this there......

take care of yourselves and stay strong ladies! and welcome to the thread Callani, i hope you find it as helpful as i have!
crinoline
Dj-bizmonkey - I had a feminist teacher (who introduced me to Bust! she held me after class and gave me my first issue) who was adamant on the importance of de-mystifying the female body. Besides making the vagina a normal, acceptable body part (how many times have you heard the word penis as opposed to vagina in conversation?), a large part of that is treating breasts as what they are. They are natural, beautiful, functional baby feeders. There is nothing sexual or shameful about breastfeeding and it sickens me that so many people feel that way. Breasts can be used in a sexual way, and they are part of attracting a mate (just like one's ass, which of course has other natural functions besides sexual), but they are not just sexual objects.
Many men seem to find it difficult to grasp that concept. And I agree that while large breasts make it obvious that one is female, they are not a subconscious signal of fertility, like wide hips are.

karategrrl- I know!! At what point in these men's lives did someone tell them it was a good idea to whistle at women? When I was in Rome (art school) The "cool guys" there hung out on the spanish steps with open shirts, tiny gold chains, and itsy bitsy cell phones glued to their ear. As I walked past, they would always move the cell phone off of their ear before CLICKING at me, like they were calling a cat or something! When I ignored them they would shout " Ey! Bellisimma!" (sp?) And when it became obvious that noone was buying it, they went back to their cell phones like nothing happened. And they ALL did it! Jerk-itude is universal, I'm afraid
dj-bizmonkey
yes, yes, yes, crinoline!!! geez, you expressed that far more cogently than i ever could have hoped! i love that concept- demystifying the female body, it made me think of that part in 'the big lebowski,' where maude says, 'my work has been praised as being highly vaginal, which makes some men uncomfortable and they find it difficult to say. vagina. while without batting an eye a man will refer to his dick, his rod or his johnson.'

as for the whistling thing, i think that women in the U.S. actually have it alot easier than say, women in Italy or any Latin American country for that matter, where it is completely acceptable to leer, stare and catcall. the best thing to do is just ignore them, though i've found that if you do turn around and talk to them they often have nothing more to say and stare at you like a deer in headlights. one contrast i noticed in the domincan republic was that if women got all dressed up to go out to the clubs and the men they passed didn't catcall, they would turn around and cuss them out, saying things like, 'what's wrong with you? are you really men? because we look hot!' it always cracked me up. i loathe the hiss from men above all sounds, that 'thssst,' blegh, it gives me the creepies just thinking about it.
LilMissStrange
Ugh, I recently experienced the subtle whistle catcall thing. I was with my friend (who is a guy) and we were walking into a convenience store and some guy vacuuming out his car started to quietly whistle when he saw me walking by, but it was the type that karategrrl was talking about where it's disguised as 'maybe they're just whistling a tune'. So obvious though that he was doing it at me and it was even worse because I was with my guy friend, who as far as that guy knows could be my bf....very 'brave' of him. My solution to that kinda subtle stuff is to give them a once over and shake my head with a smirk on my face or make a rude comment about them to whomever happens to be with me (this is really effective if it's another girl and you both start laughing after). For the more obvious stuff like guys yelling shit out car windows I find the middle finger is effective.

Honestly though, I think that if women started calling guys on that kinda bullshit more often they'd do it less. I think they do it cuz they know that most cases they can get away with it because so many women won't say anything. I try and tell my friends this when they get upset and tell me to "ignore it" when I talk back to guys who harass us....they just call me a 'militant feminist' sad.gif
Lotus0910
Hey all...
Just felt like sharing:

So I've been seeing this guy for about two weeks or so. I should have run when he told me that his last girlfriend had gi-normous fake breasts that he had helped pay for, I should have run when we got into his car on a hot day and he drove with the windows up to avoid messing up his hair, I should have run when he *sigh* commented that a gorgeous brunette with perfectly natural C-cup breasts had "no boobs".. but alas I was so fascinated at his social ineptitude that I couldn't tear myself away. Also, a small part of me stayed around hoping to see if he had a deeper more substantial side.


SURPRISE!
He didn't.

So I tell him to kick rocks and he says, HE SAYS, "You're an attractive woman, but I am a VERY attractive man. Normally I wouldn't have gone for someone like you at all. No offence, but I'm attracted to women with boobs."

What?
I'm sorry I had the impression that these sacks of fatty tissue which I used to feed my child in his infancy were commonly reffered to as 'boobs'. I must have been wrong.

"Do tell," I answered back "What do you consider these?" Pointing to my chest.

I didn't wait for his answer. I told him (calmly because that's how I do things) that while, yes he is a VERY attractive man, his lack of inner beauty and any ability to recognize or value it made him the ugliest son of a bitch I had ever laid eyes on.
I ended with "No offence, but I'm attracted to men with substance."

He has called me every day since then, and left several messages inviting me out.

I would rather stay home and shave my taint.
knorl05
lotus gurl... i <3 you!! damn midwestern dude. so full of himself living in some fantasy world. i love the way you ended it. tell the bastard what's up. his perceived attractiveness may get him booty but you're so much better off without having to deal with allll of his negative energy. i can peep out the superficial ones like radar now and i steer clear of them. give them a nice kind of fuck you type of smile. if they try to step to me i give them a dont even bother type of glare. he is sooo not worth your time. hopefully he's kicking himself for his stupidity and that you never give him another chance to make an ass of himself (unless, you know, that's what you want....)

anyway. good for you!
crinoline
QUOTE(Lotus0910 @ Sep 5 2007, 04:46 AM) *
I would rather stay home and shave my taint.


Hahahahahahaha!! You rock. I'm sorry you had to endure such jack-assery, but you're obviously a lady who can handle herself. Keep on giving him exactly what he deserves, which is none of your precious time!
edie52
What a loser!

Well, as a refreshing counterpoint to that... one day last month I was taking off my dress to try on an other outfit for my boyfriend (just to get his opinion). I also happened to not be wearing a bra. As soon as the dress came off he made an "mmm" sound and reached out to paw at my breasts a bit and said "I'm obsessed with your boobs." As someone who has been self-conscious about them for the last 10 years, this was music to my ears. Of course I encouraged his behaviour and pulled his head down so that he could lick and suck my nipples (reason #127 I would never get implants- I would cry and cry if I lost sensation in them, and would have to find completely different ways of getting turned on!).

Also, I found a good, affordable, unpadded underwire bra at H&M. I always thought I was smaller than an A cup, but maybe these are made a bit small, or I've grown a bit since the last time I tried on a "real" bra (which was years ago). I know I shouldn't feel validated by a size, but I do. It's kind of a nice feeling to finally fit into the system and not be sent to the teen girl section when shopping...
anonymoose96
Right on Lotus!!!!!
karategrrl
HOLY CRAP you ladies!! What's this? I'm gone for a week or so and check back to find so much great shit going here!! Woohoo!

DJ-Biz, you brought up some really excellent points. You are right--breast size--as well as any other preference can go in and out of "style" or whatever with the times. Also, I had no idea it was so acceptable to catcall, etc. in some regions. Now it makes TOTAL sense why men of some particular ethnicities seem to do that--not ALL of them, of course--don't want to over-generalize. But I have to admit it does usually seem to be European/South American men. I don't mind glances or someone talking to me respectfully, but none of that leering, whistling, crotch-grabbing shit. It also makes more sense now that you say the women of these cultures may expect it, too. I've seen some women actually go over and talk to guys who do that crap. I guess this is a different way of saying, "Hello, nice day today! How are you?" Ha.

Lotus, LMFAO laugh.gif with that story and your telling of it. What's most funny is his calling you now. If you were panting after him I'm sure he'd be giving you the cold shoulder. I admit, I remember waaay back when, there was this guy I worked with who was seriously after me (and every other woman in the area). I found him attractive but sorely lacking in character, so I didn't want anything to do with him. I swear, the fact that I DID NOT want to fuck him drive him berserk! HAHAHAHA! laugh.gif
Callani
I agree with DJ-Biz, i think whistling is worse in some countries in Europe (I don't know about Latin-American countries). My Grandad was Italian and he was absolutely awful when it came to watching women, he'd always nudge a guy to the side of him and go "Eh, eh... look at that there.." Luckily it didn't rub off on anyone else in my family and we mostly used to joke about it, but I think it's almost expected in Italy and other similar countries. Creepy.
Lotus, I have to applaud your utter rejection of that guy - absolute genius. A similarly small breasted friend of mine was dating this guy for ages who was a complete arse about how small her breasts were and she never stood up to him. Thankfully she's now dating someone who appreciates her and can't believe she dated creep-boy for so long. But anyhoo, glad to hear that you're standing up for your figure. biggrin.gif
Jaymi
Lotus - you're my Hero!!!
Lotus0910
Wow what a week!
So homeboy wound up showing up for my birthday last night at the local pub. Ew. I won't even waste your time with the jist of how it went because it truly isn't worth it. Let's just say that I'm twice as disgusted as I was last week. How did he find out where I was hanging for my b-day? Who knows. What a douche.

On the lighter side of news, I found an awesoooome online lingerie store that caters to smaller chested women! This site comes highly recommended by a close friend and I just dropped nearly $75.00 on bras and camis. I'm pretty excited because they're stuff is actually sexy, and doesn't look like it's made for 10 year olds. Hallelujah!! I'll let you guys know how they fit! And oh- here's the site in case you want to check it out:

http://www.lulalu.com/

I'm in heaven!! biggrin.gif
anonymoose96
I remember posting the lulalu site a long time ago when I came across it, and it does look like nice stuff. :-) The only reason I'm reluctant to try it myself is because I hate ordering things I can't try on, but then again that usually has to do with my small proportions. Let me know if the things you ordered work out! If so maybe I'll give it a try smile.gif
edie52
Lace and demi-cups and "lightly padded," oh my! I want.

I love that they have 38 and 30 band sizes, and many styles in AA, that's rad. I would totally order but they don't ship to where I'm living right now...
dj-bizmonkey
way to go Lotus! what a total choadface and i am not in the least bit surprised that's he's still hanging around. you're probably the first woman that actually stood up to his superficial bullshit.

sounds like you've got a good man there, edie. my boyfriend is the same way.

well i know i have totally bashed victoria's secret in the past, but they were having a big sale this weekend so i popped my head in. the saleswoman was incredibly helpful and i found exactly what i was looking for (a-cup bras without ridiculous padding, but with underwire). vickie's is selling these italian made bras (they come in sizes 1-4) that are unlined, either silky, sheer or lace demi-cups. the silky ones are convertible so you can wear them with halter tops. the laces onces were two for $25 and the sheer/silky ones were 2 for $30. i feel like i got a good deal, even though they will probably fall apart as soon as i get them wet.

i've also heard that american eagle makes stretchy, t-shirt material bras with underwire too, woohoo! i'm not crazy about the feeling of an underwire bra, in fact i'm usually braless, but when i want shape under my sweater, it's the only way to go. my boyfriend hates padding, to the point that while we were last on vacation together he took one of the ultra-padded bras my friends had bought me, dangled it over the trash and said, 'this padding is total bullshit.' i didn't let him toss it, but he really wanted to.

i like some of the stuff on lulalu as well, but i found it a little pricey.
karategrrl
QUOTE(dj-bizmonkey @ Sep 10 2007, 10:52 PM) *
dangled it over the trash and said, 'this padding is total bullshit.'

Sounds like a good man you got there, too, DJ!
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