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strongirl
Guy, you and I differ there, dude - I LOVE football!!!

And I'd be AOK with the chicks football thing IF:

1) There was a variety of body types as previously stated.
2) The NFL guys played in Speedos. And nothing else.

In my dreams...literally.

karategrrl
QUOTE(strongirl @ Sep 24 2010, 01:03 PM) *
Guy, you and I differ there, dude - I LOVE football!!!

And I'd be AOK with the chicks football thing IF:

1) There was a variety of body types as previously stated.
2) The NFL guys played in Speedos. And nothing else.

In my dreams...literally.

Seriously! I could get over all the objectifications of women if it existed equally in the genders. Awhile back I went on a search to see if there were any women's mags whatsoever (with the exception of Playgirl, of course) that had male pictorials in them, like the men's magazines have of women, no matter what the topic.

None. Zero. sad.gif
strongirl
Honestly, I think we women have to take a lot of the blame for that. I don't buy the whole "guys are just more visual than girls" thing - I know I am VERY visual when it comes to looking at men. I think women buy into the whole conditioning that looks matter more for women than men, and we shouldn't. We should let men know we care about how they look, compliment them on things we like, enjoy and appreciate the shows of male pulchritude that we do get, and demand more!

In part, I have to thank my mother and her mother and sister for this - they all enjoyed looking at handsome men and were not ashamed to share this pleasure with me as I was growing up.

I intentionally chose to use the word "Speedo" because it's a hot button for this issue. I've read and heard discussions with women and how they feel about men in skimpy swimwear and definitely more than half the time the reaction is negative. There are even women who say it is too close to just looking at a man's "thing" and they don't like that either! I just can't relate to that at ALL. That is a type of sexism that we women can stop perpetuating, and we'll have more fun if we do.

And I do think men are just as exhibitionistic as women. I know there aren't mainstream mags except for Playgirl but if you look on Adult Friendfinder or any of those type of sites, guys love to take pics of their man-stuff and show it off!
just_a_guy
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Sep 24 2010, 09:33 AM) *
Seriously! I could get over all the objectifications of women if it existed equally in the genders. Awhile back I went on a search to see if there were any women's mags whatsoever (with the exception of Playgirl, of course) that had male pictorials in them, like the men's magazines have of women, no matter what the topic.

None. Zero. sad.gif



@SG - I'm all for the speedos, but I think you'll have an easier time convincing rugby players, rather than the wimpy football players here who insist on wearing pads tongue.gif

I also think that women enjoy looking at attractive men, and that men should take pride in their appearance in the same way that many men expect it of women.

@karategrrl - I agree that the acceptability (and thus the market for a product that fulfills the need) is limited at least partially by accepted social roles.

I will say that there are definitive differences between how much value the different genders place on aesthetics when selecting a mate. All the evidence I've looked at (unless a biological anthropologist in here wants to disagree with me) suggests that this is hard wired due to historical roles that men and women have taken on both in terms of familial and tribal/social responsibilities:

-Men look for women who are healthy enough to bear children and attractive enough that the children they bear have a better chance of finding a high-quality mate

-Women pay more attention to social status and ability to provide because ten-thousand years ago the higher up your mate was on the social ladder the less likely you and your children would starve to death, or some other guy would come along, take you from your husband, and kill your kids.

Frankly, our brains haven't changed that much in ten-thousand years.
koffeewitch
guy: Maybe I'm just a big weirdo (it's in fact more than a little probable) but all my BFs have been dirt poor and I really am turned off by guys who are drawn to money/status/possessions and designer clothes that are made in the same sweat shops by the same 9 year old girls as the shit that ends up in K-mart.

You may completely disagree with this, but I don't usually find that poor guys who are bright and charismatic usually have a hard time finding women. And the women who don't want to date them because they take the city bus, instead of drive a Beamer....fuck 'em, I say.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Sep 24 2010, 02:58 PM) *
guy: Maybe I'm just a big weirdo (it's in fact more than a little probable) but all my BFs have been dirt poor and I really am turned off by guys who are drawn to money/status/possessions and designer clothes that are made in the same sweat shops by the same 9 year old girls as the shit that ends up in K-mart.

You may completely disagree with this, but I don't usually find that poor guys who are bright and charismatic usually have a hard time finding women. And the women who don't want to date them because they take the city bus, instead of drive a Beamer....fuck 'em, I say.



I don't disagree with you at all. In fact, charisma and intelligence are traits of a high-status male. I'm not saying that all women have the same set of standards, just that women tend to place more weight on personality traits than they do on physical attributes when selecting a long-term mate. Men look at personality as well, but they place more importance on physical indicators of health than women do.

ps- girls that won't date a guy who doesn;t drive a Beemer here in LA are a dime a dozen, and I say exactly the same thing: fuck 'em. Whether you drive one or not, you want to put a bullet in your head after hearing some of these people talk for longer than 30 seconds.

strongirl
Oh gosh, I am SO happy this topic came up, even though we're getting a bit outside the theme of this forum. This is one of my hugest pet peeves: the pseudo-scientific bs that is known as "evolutionary psychology".

Guy, I respectfully and strongly disagree with your views about supposedly "hard-wired" gender differences in mate selection. Evolutionary psychology is a field that is increasingly discredited as better science and unbiased perspectives debunk its flawed basis; it has been all along a bunch of unprovable "theories" created to justify the prejudices of its originators. Just because someone calls themself a "scientist" doesn't make their personal opinions "science".

I've been uncomfortable with the crap that comes out of this field since I was in college 30 years ago. But - all things come to she who waits - finally in the last several years the tides have turned against it.

Guy, and anyone else who either buys this stuff or doesn't buy it but can't quite figure out why, check out this awesome article:

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/06/19/why-do-...eep-around.html

There's also a book out (I haven't read it yet) called "Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality", that sounds similar in perspective...and sounds like a hot and fascinating read. If anyone's read it, I'd love to hear what you think.

Just to be clear, Guy, this is not a slam or attack on you at all - I really respect your mind and since you obviously give things a lot of thought, I'm guessing you also are open to questioning your own views.


nbdx0645
Strongirl, I agree with you. My college psych classes were NOT based in evo psych for that reason. I get frustrated when my friend's friend puts on sunglasses so he can check out all the babes on the street.

"I can't help but look at women. I'm a man." Congratulations, buddy. Needless to say, we fought it out.

You're still going to gawk creepily at women when we are hanging out? I hate it when men don't look me in the eye because they're staring at ANOTHER WOMAN'S BREASTS. It makes you wish they were attached to YOU, so they would be looking at A PART OF YOU. Then you hear how large breasts are ideal because <x, y, z> and you really start to wonder if something is medically wrong with you. Am I a part of Evolution's Divine Plan, or not?

Also, why doesn't evolutionary psych cater to the whims of women? Evo psych makes women sound sexless, overly-emotional, subservient, and utterly dependent on men.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(strongirl @ Sep 25 2010, 09:54 AM) *
Oh gosh, I am SO happy this topic came up, even though we're getting a bit outside the theme of this forum. This is one of my hugest pet peeves: the pseudo-scientific bs that is known as "evolutionary psychology".

Guy, I respectfully and strongly disagree with your views about supposedly "hard-wired" gender differences in mate selection. Evolutionary psychology is a field that is increasingly discredited as better science and unbiased perspectives debunk its flawed basis; it has been all along a bunch of unprovable "theories" created to justify the prejudices of its originators. Just because someone calls themself a "scientist" doesn't make their personal opinions "science".

I've been uncomfortable with the crap that comes out of this field since I was in college 30 years ago. But - all things come to she who waits - finally in the last several years the tides have turned against it.

Guy, and anyone else who either buys this stuff or doesn't buy it but can't quite figure out why, check out this awesome article:

http://www.newsweek.com/2009/06/19/why-do-...eep-around.html

There's also a book out (I haven't read it yet) called "Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality", that sounds similar in perspective...and sounds like a hot and fascinating read. If anyone's read it, I'd love to hear what you think.

Just to be clear, Guy, this is not a slam or attack on you at all - I really respect your mind and since you obviously give things a lot of thought, I'm guessing you also are open to questioning your own views.


Definitely an interesting article to read. I'm certainly not an expert in the field of evolutionary biology, I was talking about the discussions I've had with biological and social anthropologists,which are separate sciences.

I agree that blaming our pre-programmed biology on modern behavior is ridiculously pseudo-scientific. It doesn't take into account nurture at all, and study after study have shown how strongly developmental influences affect our impulses and behaviors.

I still don't think this invalidates my argument because of the broad strokes I am using. I'm not saying let's forgive rapists they're hardwired that way, just like I'm not saying that all men like toyotas. I would however suggest that all human beings are genetically designed to be able to do three things: protect themselves (and their offspring), feed themselves (and their offspring), and create the aforementioned offspring. Because of this I would think that as technology advanced humans who were more likely to usehorses, wagons, and cars, or improving weapons to move farther faster, protect their families better, and hunt more effectively would have been more likely to survive long enough to procreate.

So by my argument no behavior is ok because it's pre-programmed, I'm only suggesting that our evolutionary imperative has an impact on how our developmental exposure to the world shapes our personalities. I'm not saying all men are attracted to 36-24-36 bodies, I'm saying that men are more likely to be attracted to the body type that nurture has taught them is most likely to help them produce viable offspring. I'm also not saying that all women are gold-diggers, I'm saying that a woman will try to seek out the best available mate to ensure her children are protected and fed.

I don't think women are dependent on men (although historical subservience is hard to argue against in most cases), I think it's a symbiotic relationship: men look for good physical qualities for their offspring, and women look for successful personality characteristics. Both of these are needed for survival and one is not more important than the other.

The major failing of evolutionary biology (aside from the lack of scientific method, and independent peer review, of course) is in its lack of account for how the manifestations of those traits are affected by nurture. What I find attractive today is not the same as what was considered attractive in 15th century England by virtue of the fact that I have had vastly different influences on my development. There is no one objective perfect beauty or perfect personality, we are all just betting on which is going to be the most successful in the next generation. All I'm saying is that women prefer evolutionary poker, and men prefer evolutionary black-jack.
nbdx0645
QUOTE(just_a_guy @ Sep 25 2010, 05:02 PM) *
<A bunch of words>


Can I get a summary of this in 2 sentences? I'm not following.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(nbdx0645 @ Sep 25 2010, 05:41 PM) *
Can I get a summary of this in 2 sentences? I'm not following.


Yes, but I'm doing it in metaphor form:

1) Saying that a person who wants to get somewhere more quickly is likely to use the most advanced applicable transportation method available is not the same as saying all people are hopelessly and innately compelled to drive Ford Mustang convertibles.

2) While the specifics of what type of transportation is popular/cutting edge over time, the tendency to use such in order to achieve your objective is biologically innate.

ps- I don't mean to pick on you in particular nbdx0645. I decided to add a link to a new blog I started in my signature since the last blog post I wrote about was how, as a society, we are trending toward increasingly accepted misuse of the English language, and an unwillingness to read something in its entirety and decipher it for ourselves. Your quote of me using "a bunch of words" and wanting the reader's digest version just made me think of it.
nbdx0645
Funny, I thought you were mocking yourself. Your sentence structure sucks.
auralpoison
*coughcough* MWET *coughcough* Whimpster. dry.gif *coughcough*

Anybody wanna hate, feel free. But my vast gut is right nine times out of ten.
nbdx0645
Finally, a post that is succinct. Hooray!
just_a_guy
QUOTE(nbdx0645 @ Sep 25 2010, 06:31 PM) *
Funny, I thought you were mocking yourself. Your sentence structure sucks.


LOL. Yeah, they skimped a little on the liberal arts when I was getting my engineering degree, and I did drop out of high school, so take it for what you will. Still, I make it a point to read entire posts (and even linked artiucles) before responding.

Also, I have no desire to engage in flame wars, especially those directed at my gender.
nbdx0645
I was giving you a chance to explain your abstract. Any BUSTie would have broken down the main points in the argument for me. I did not understand what you were trying to say. I didn't want to come forward and say that your backpedaling on topics coincides with AP's post. I wanted to hear the essence of your point of view, since it sounded like pseudo-intellectual babble. Your long-winded response to SG's article is a thinly-veiled attempt to save face when most of your 'tidbits of wisdom' were debunked or countered.

What the hell does "Women prefer evolutionary poker, and men prefer evolutionary blackjack" even mean? It sounds like I really need to understand this glittering generality.

The main essence of this thread is getting terribly derailed. Do you honestly think that women are feeling comfortable enough to talk about their deep insecurities when you're in a constant state of defending your image? Do you honestly think that you are giving more to BUST than taking?

Edit: I read through your shitty post several times. I read it out loud. I asked a friend to decode it. I did my best to find meaning and I couldn't find much. I also read through the Newsweek article. It was fab. You're an engineer? You should be a politician. You say so much while saying nothing at all.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(nbdx0645 @ Sep 25 2010, 09:56 PM) *
I was giving you a chance to explain your abstract. Any BUSTie would have broken down the main points in the argument for me. I did not understand what you were trying to say. I didn't want to come forward and say that your backpedaling on topics coincides with AP's post. I wanted to hear the essence of your point of view, since it sounded like pseudo-intellectual babble. Your long-winded response to SG's article is a thinly-veiled attempt to save face when most of your 'tidbits of wisdom' were debunked or countered.

What the hell does "Women prefer evolutionary poker, and men prefer evolutionary blackjack" even mean? It sounds like I really need to understand this glittering generality.

The main essence of this thread is getting terribly derailed. Do you honestly think that women are feeling comfortable enough to talk about their deep insecurities when you're in a constant state of defending your image? Do you honestly think that you are giving more to BUST than taking?

Edit: I read through your shitty post several times. I read it out loud. I asked a friend to decode it. I did my best to find meaning and I couldn't find much. I also read through the Newsweek article. It was fab. You're an engineer? You should be a politician. You say so much while saying nothing at all.



As I said, when I responded to you initially. I wasn't trying to pick on you, the context of replacing my quote with <a bunch of words> simply reminded me of the blog post I had just written. In fact I've never said a negative word about you as far as I know.

I will do my best to answer your questions/address your points:

1) Yes, this is a significant side tangent from the main topic of the thread.

2) I didn't understand that you were having trouble understanding my post, your post read as if you simply didn't want to read it the entire way through.

3) Sometimes I speak in metaphors and that can be confusing, I understand that and will try to clarify my point below.

4) I don't know when women do or do not feel comfortable enough to share their insecurities, but I know that quite a few of the women on this board have share theirs with me, and thanked me for my input. I have always tried to make people feel secure.

5) I don't think I'm trying to defend my image. I saw a situation where I thought that a general hypothesis was being thrown out on the basis of one logical fallacy, and I wanted to point that out.

6) Yes I think I add more to BUST than I take away, and I take offense to being excluded in your use of the phrase "any BUSTie." I'm a BUSTie too. Look, it says so right under my avatar.

7) AP seems to have a personal problem with me and I've contacted her about it through PM since it has no place in this or any other thread.

8) I am not a practicing engineer. I hold degrees in Biomedical-Electrical Engineering and a Master's in Business. I'm also a photographer, web developer, writer, ordained minister, atheist, etc. I am a lot of things. The Engineering comment was a tongue-in-cheek response to your comment about my bad sentecne structure since engineers have notoriously poor written communication skills.

My response to SG's post was an explanation that I think there is a significant difference between using evolutionary biology to excuse modern behavior and accepting that impulses and low-level subconscious decision making in the sub-cortical parts of our brain have a hard wired component due to thousands of years of those structures developing.

I was explaining that I don't think men rape because they are hard wired to rape, Nor do I think that men are all attracted to the same thing because it's hard wired. I do think that men and women make decisions differently (and have different responses to developmental stimuli) based on the evolutionary selection of specific advantageous brain traits over the past few million years.

In short, men and women arrive at the conclusion that a particular mate is a good choice based on different decision making processes (that are a combination of nature and nurture), and I would hypothesize that the reason there is a larger market for pornography for men than for women has to do with the differences in these processes.

If you consider that back-pedaling, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion on that matter as well as to whether or not my post and or sentence structure is "shitty."

If you actually want clarification of something I've written in the future, I would ask that you ask for it respectfully, without the sarcastic undertones that there is no explanation. I would certainly offer you the same respect.

Oh, and if that makes me a "Whimpster" or a know it all (which clearly only a man can be tongue.gif ), then I guess I'd better go buy some skinny jeans, black eyeliner, and something to induce flaccidity.

To all of you on here who enjoy corresponding with me, I truly enjoy taking part in the conversation. For those of you who don't, I suggest you block me so that you don't have to read my posts.
angie_21
Hi girls! I'm back! and just in time! Anthropologist in the house! Give me a moment to collect my thoughts on all this and I will be ready to discuss evolutionary psycho-babble all day.

I had an awesome time in the field. No mirrors, no showers, just good honest physical work and good friends. I spent the whole time judging myself not on how I look, but on how much I could lift and how far I could carry it, and how much I could work without complaining. As a side-project, I tried evaluating how I felt about my appearance based on how people around me reacted to me and looked at me, rather than looking at myself (since there were no mirrors) and it turns out, I think I must be pretty hot, small breasts or no.

Guy's writing made sense to me, it's a common argument I've heard many times before, but it's been rejected within anthropological thought for decades already. Evolutionary psychology is pop-psycho-babble at its finest. Take vast generalizations about what men do and what women do, try to explain them in terms of "survival" without any analogy to primate behaviour or any statistical verification of these supposed male/female behaviours, and publish a book about it. It's men are from mars, women are from venus, with a pseudo-scientific veneer. No real anthropologist I know even bothers to talk about these theories except for drunken discussions at the bar. Most evolutionary psychology actually assumes that humans act completely different from their closest primate relatives, but still explains our behaviour in terms of biology and evolution. Female chimpanzees are generally promiscuous and don't even rely on males to care for their young. That kind of messes up a lot of those theories right there, doesn't it? Evolutionary psychology also assumes that modern, western cultures represent all human behaviour and that our gender roles and child-rearing strategies are universal. Wrong again, monogamous child-rearing isn't always a factor in mate selection, women generally do care about appearance but just often don't have the social/cultural power to be able to make decisions based on those preferences. It's cultural, not biological. If we want to go with one of the more blatant vast generalizations, why not say that women have to seek men with power because it's usually been taken away from us on a personal level, instead of blaming it on "instinct?" We can argue about this crap all day, but because it's not based on anything other than generalization and bastardization of the concept of evolution, anything we discuss is irrelevant.

Sorry. this stuff pisses me off. I'm all excited to be back here with my girls, and this is what's going on with our message board? bah. I still have to read through everything I missed on this board over the summer! I'll come back with some stories from the field in a bit, I had a great time and let me tell u, it sure has made me change the way I see myself and my body, as the field always does. Missed you all and was thinking of you when I went all summer in my un-padded sports bras and un-padded bikini, and didn't feel self-conscious once!
buttercups
Sorry I don't mean to be rude or start anything or anything like that, but I've really not enjoyed posting on this board since you started posting J-A-G. I don't understand why a man would be so interested in a small-breast support group and something about it has really irked me. I understand that several other women on here have appreciated your perspectives and everything like that, but I don't really come on here posting to really need validation from a man telling me that "small breasts are sexy" or whatever. I'm trying to phrase this as politely as possible because I am a very non-confrontational person, but why do you feel so interested in this topic? This is a bunch of women here to share their insecurities and experiences.

Of course I'm not saying you can't post here or anything because who am I to make that decision, especially if the other ladies are getting something out of it. But I feel like you are constantly trying to appease us and "get in" with us and I am unclear about why. I hate rocking the boat but something about it just makes me feel really weird. I really enjoy getting support from other women and that's not to say I can't appreciate a nice comment from a man from time to time, but sometimes I come here to escape that man's perspective and get some good solid advice from women who are living through this with me. Unless you have small breasts, there is only so much you can say about the topic.

Hope I am not offending anyone I just see this board turning into something else and didn't want to speak up about it before.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(buttercups @ Sep 26 2010, 09:03 AM) *
Sorry I don't mean to be rude or start anything or anything like that, but I've really not enjoyed posting on this board since you started posting J-A-G. I don't understand why a man would be so interested in a small-breast support group and something about it has really irked me. I understand that several other women on here have appreciated your perspectives and everything like that, but I don't really come on here posting to really need validation from a man telling me that "small breasts are sexy" or whatever. I'm trying to phrase this as politely as possible because I am a very non-confrontational person, but why do you feel so interested in this topic? This is a bunch of women here to share their insecurities and experiences.

Of course I'm not saying you can't post here or anything because who am I to make that decision, especially if the other ladies are getting something out of it. But I feel like you are constantly trying to appease us and "get in" with us and I am unclear about why. I hate rocking the boat but something about it just makes me feel really weird. I really enjoy getting support from other women and that's not to say I can't appreciate a nice comment from a man from time to time, but sometimes I come here to escape that man's perspective and get some good solid advice from women who are living through this with me. Unless you have small breasts, there is only so much you can say about the topic.

Hope I am not offending anyone I just see this board turning into something else and didn't want to speak up about it before.


For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room.

If you read my last few posts it's pretty clear that I'm not trying to appease anyone. The very idea that I have to appease or "Get in with" the group suggests that I am excluded from it, I'm not. I'm here because body image issues have negatively affected my life both directly and through friends and family. I see this issue as one of the most prevalent amongst the women in my life. Despite the fact that my insecurities are about other areas of my body, they aren't any different from your own.

I didn't get here accidentally, the link was forwarded to me by a female friend who understands why this issue matters so much to me, and I joined in the conversation because I thought I could add something to it. So far the only reason anyone has suggested that this is impossible is that I'm not a woman.

Hey angie, nice to meet you. What type of anthropologist are you? I ask both because I am interested and because I want to get the opinion of a friend of mine who's currently getting her PhD in biological anthropology at Cambridge, and in the past she has flung books at my head when I asked her questions that fall more in the realm of social anthropology (she takes a little bit of pride in her field tongue.gif ). Luckily she is too far for book flinging at the moment, but she could probably give my computer a really nasty virus if she wanted.
melis19750
this may not mean much,
but i just wanted to say I have always wished for a smaller size- like a nice full B cup or small C

being a D-cup is honestly a pain in the rear!

its hard to find tops, shirts that fit you well without trying to show "too much"
and its a pain with exercise...etc: esp cardio because no matter what kind of supportive bras you wear-they bounce everywhere

I say if you have smaller breasts be HAPPY about it
because being BIG BUSTED naturally is not all what its cracked up to be
sybarite
Welcome back angie!! And thanks for the awesome post; I have always had a problem with the evolution-based rationale for the differences between men and women but you explained why far better than I could.

Just a guy, you may recognise the impact of widely circulated stereotypical body images, but you cannot identify with the women here because to put it simply, you have not been in the shoes of a woman who has small breasts, as buttercups observed. You may know people who have had some of the experiences discussed on this thread and you may well have strong views on this, but you have not had these experiences yourself. We all have insecurities about out bodies, but I have to disagree that yours are the *same* as those of the women here.

This thread has a specific purpose and from the frequency and content of your posts I have to say I feel you are trying to make it all about you and your views.

Not a regular here, so ladies if I'm overstepping let me know.

buttercups
Thanks so much Syb, that is exactly what I was trying to say!

JAG you may have other insecurities but they are not identical to what we experience here and I still don't understand how women with small breasts directly impacts you since you are not a woman with small breasts. I wouldn't join a support group for men with small dicks, because even if I dated someone with a small penis or whatnot I would not feel right joining in on group because a small penis is not something I know anything about dealing with, regardless of who else in my life has one. Maybe a small penis support group or something like that might be a more appropriate arena for you?
enfermera
this? freaking hawt. glad to see you back, angie!

QUOTE(angie_21 @ Sep 26 2010, 10:39 AM) *
Guy's writing made sense to me, it's a common argument I've heard many times before, but it's been rejected within anthropological thought for decades already. Evolutionary psychology is pop-psycho-babble at its finest. Take vast generalizations about what men do and what women do, try to explain them in terms of "survival" without any analogy to primate behaviour or any statistical verification of these supposed male/female behaviours, and publish a book about it. It's men are from mars, women are from venus, with a pseudo-scientific veneer. No real anthropologist I know even bothers to talk about these theories except for drunken discussions at the bar. Most evolutionary psychology actually assumes that humans act completely different from their closest primate relatives, but still explains our behaviour in terms of biology and evolution. Female chimpanzees are generally promiscuous and don't even rely on males to care for their young. That kind of messes up a lot of those theories right there, doesn't it? Evolutionary psychology also assumes that modern, western cultures represent all human behaviour and that our gender roles and child-rearing strategies are universal. Wrong again, monogamous child-rearing isn't always a factor in mate selection, women generally do care about appearance but just often don't have the social/cultural power to be able to make decisions based on those preferences. It's cultural, not biological. If we want to go with one of the more blatant vast generalizations, why not say that women have to seek men with power because it's usually been taken away from us on a personal level, instead of blaming it on "instinct?" We can argue about this crap all day, but because it's not based on anything other than generalization and bastardization of the concept of evolution, anything we discuss is irrelevant.

angie_21
I have mountains of homework to do, but I'm all riled up! As usual. Buttercups and Syb, you're not stepping on anyone's toes or being at all pushy or offensive. I am so glad you are speaking up for your thoughts. I still haven't had the chance to read back thru much of the past few months conversations, and maybe I'm going to be judging JAG a bit harshly based on his rude comments to nbdx and his dismissiveness or your post, buttercups, but I am a little taken aback that he feels he can talk like that on this board and not get a bad reaction?

JAG, your attitude in both of those posts is not the best way to get women to want to talk to you. We've run into problems with men coming onto this message board with what they think are innocent or good intentions before. We're sick of men telling us what they do or don't find attractive. We're defensive about it. If you haven't studied the feminist/anthropological concepts of male privilege and safe spaces, please go do some research. Buttercup's statement to you was polite, heartfelt, and really important to her, and you pretty much dismissed it out of hand based on the assumption that just because some women were comfortable with you here, means we all should be. I don't know what your own personal issues are, but if you do have issues or you own, you should be here to share them, not to talk about our issues and pass out benevolent advice from your perspective as a man. I don't want to be picking a fight in any way, and if you feel the following comments are unfair, please lets take it outside. But I feel the need to stand up for my homegirls. And I want to point out to you some of your comments that reveal your feelings of entitlement and male privilege, hoping you can see why they are inappropriate for this board and why comments like that make some of us uncomfortable with anything else you have to say, no matter how insightful:

"For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room." No you don't. That remark is flippant and demeans the personal struggles of every girl here.
"I joined in the conversation because I thought I could add something to it. So far the only reason anyone has suggested that this is impossible is that I'm not a woman." On no, reverse sexism! Except that's not what buttercups said. She said the style and content of your comments sometimes make her uncomfortable. From my own point of view, on a message board where we're trying to discuss body issues and how we react to male objectification, having a guy come in and express what he finds physically attractive can be a bit counterproductive. If you can't respect the fact that we're going to react that way, then you need to step back and figure out why you're here. To join in and "add something," or to get something for yourself no matter how we feel about it?
"Yes I think I add more to BUST than I take away, and I take offense to being excluded in your use of the phrase "any BUSTie." I'm a BUSTie too. Look, it says so right under my avatar." Dude, George Bush could sign up for an account and it would say Bustie under his name. It wouldn't make him one. Again, flippant and dismissive.
"If you actually want clarification of something I've written in the future, I would ask that you ask for it respectfully, without the sarcastic undertones that there is no explanation. I would certainly offer you the same respect." don't say that when you're being snarky yourself. It's disingenuous.

If you'd like to talk anthropology, or continue this discussion, pm me any time, or we can go to the take it outside thread.
auralpoison
Uh, just so you know, Angie, TPTB chose to take away the TIO thread with absolutely zero explanation. They giveth, yadda yadda yadda.

Glad you're back though & cannot wait to hear tales of your journey!

I would like to take a moment to apologize to any *legit* Busties if I have offended you & also for the further derail. I just couldn't let what I view as a pervy, fetishistic, 135lb gorilla in the room go without further comment, especially after I have been in communication with no less than eight Busties that aren't crazy about J_A_G or his brand of BS.

I'd like to think most of you know me pretty well, I'm old school & I put it out there 100% come hell or high water. And as a busty Bustie, I don't come in here a lot, but when I do I behave respectfully & bring some food for thought. I usually have a link to share that is on topic & I'd like to think contributes to the conversation at hand. I do not/did not come in here just to stir the turd. I wish to make that plain.

But statements like this?

QUOTE(just_a_guy @ Sep 2 2010, 03:54 PM) *
I've been trying to talk female acquaintances out of getting implants since I was 14 (I've only failed once) and, while I used to joke that I ran "a non-profit organization dedicated to preventing the extinction of the small-breasted American female" (and that we pursued our mission through offerings of small breast appreciation seminars and one-on-one hands on workshops) the truth is that I honestly care.


Yeah, do not bode well in male contributors. I do not like the idea that some guy walked in here patting himself on the back for talking "female acquaintances" out of getting implants as though those women didn't know their own bodies, minds & hearts & needed male input to make the right choice for themselves. It's J_A_G's numerous similar statements that just scream entitled MWET/sneaky whimpster to me & it makes me question his motivations for being here. Like, he's not here to be helpful, he's here because he has a thing for smart, funny, lovely women with small busts & now has a captive audience of them for his meandering, faux-sensitive, psycho-babble fap fap fapping.

ETA: I forgot about this Ignoble winner: the Emergency Bra!
nbdx0645
QUOTE(enfermera @ Sep 26 2010, 06:09 PM) *
this? freaking hawt. glad to see you back, angie!


Quoted for truth. Welcome back from your trip. It sounds that you were completely in-tune with your body while you were gone. I love that feeling.

I'm also glad that Angie addressed this comment before me: "For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room." No you don't. That remark is flippant and demeans the personal struggles of every girl here." I'm a woman who, in college, could describe her breasts as 'nipples on a ribcage.' I was told that my male friend has better-looking breasts than me, and I posted the story on this forum recently. That's the most hurtful sentence I've ever seen in this thread. I think that sentence deserves a big FUCK YOU.

I also wish that buttercups' post would have given you more perspective on our feelings. Dismissing that post with little regard was one of the worst things you could have done to such a thoughtful and sensitive individual.

And AP, I agree with everything you're saying. I take no offense; I'm happy you came into the thread. I wish I would have said something sooner. =/
buttercups
Ahh gotta run to bed but I just wanted to pop in and say how much I love my Bustie gals!

Thanks for having my back you all rock!

<3
buttercups
anarch
Some of your comments, just_a_guy, struck me as probably helpful to some. Others grated. In fact, they fit so strongly with an analysis of auralpoison's from last year that I went looking for her comment:

QUOTE(auralpoison @ May 27 2009, 07:25 AM) *
Look, it's like this: 98.4% of men who start posting here immediately go into the breast threads or the sex threads. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. They can't turn the cock off for a half an hour to peruse the forums for something non-physical/sexual they might be interested in talking about. They don't post about the latest book they read, they don't post any good vegan recipes, they don't post about third wave feminism, they don't post about what they think of California upholding Prop 8, they don't post about volunteer work, they don't post angst about their jobs, they don't post angst about their familes, etc. Oh, no, they boldly offer us the male persepective on our bits because that's the *most common sense* place to start addressing women that by & large align themselves with the dreaded "F word". "Tits. They're hella feminist! Let's talk about yours!"

Then, if their schtick isn't vulgar, crass or purely retarded, it's the nice/mega-cheesy guy routine: All breasts are great, guys love 'em big or small, they individually prefer smaller & are proud of it, they share an anecdote wherein they felt they were being judged by their appearance & how they dealt with it, again all breasts are great, & we should love our bodies, ourselves. . . .

But it often comes back to the same thing with many men, doesn't it? That breast are for adornment, for nabbing Mr. Right, female completion through male validation. They frequently don't know about/consider the variety of things that vex us about our mammaries, like buying a swimsuit, inverted nipples, menstrual breast aches, marked unevenness, fibroids, breast feeding, jogger's nipples, etc. Men don't empathize with the OTHER issues of having breasts because they don't have them, hence they can only expound about what they actually know: they are fun to look at & play with & they're happy as clams when they get to.

As far as rules/stickies go, Geoff, . . . Common Sense. I realize this is the intarwebs & all, but you basically introduced yourself to a party full of FEMINIST women, proceeded to step into a conversation about something fairly personal, & offered your not too terribly useful insight. It wasn't offensive, just inappropriate. You didn't give a host a hug, you didn't stop by the kitchen, you didn't grab a drink, you had no idle chitchat about the latest summer blockbuster . . .


Also, the comments auralpoison and Angie singled out as problems are ones that bothered me too, for the same reasons. (Welcome back, Angie! I was just thinking to myself the other day, "Isn't Angie due back in the Lounge by now?")

Especially the way you assume that the only reason some might take exception to some of your comments, is that you're not a woman. Persiflager said in last year's conversation about Geoff that there are men who participate in the Lounge in various threads, who've lurked here long enough to get a feel for how this place works and their interest in the Lounge is well-rounded, not restricted to sex or boob threads, and "they fit in well here." It's true. I think you mean well. There are other reasons for considering some (not all) of your comments objectionable. If you listen more instead of jumping to conclusions like "it's because I'm not a woman," you might understand what they are.

I couldn't find half the stuff I was looking for in the archives of this thread, but seriously, you may find reading the old posts instructive.

Also, I miss dj-bizmonkey. Anybody know where she went?
Persiflager
I second all the wise and thoughtful posts below.

Just_a_guy, you have as much right to post here as I do, in that neither of us is a woman with small breasts. This is not a 'body issues' support thread. Much as we might sympathise and indeed empathise with the sentiments posted here, we do not and cannot understand exactly what it is to be a woman with small breasts. Our viewpoints and experiences are not sought and, while they may be useful, are unlikely to be the most important ones here. Get over it.

Oh, and while I thank you for your thoughtful comment about how metaphors can be confusing, I must point out that they are on the curriculum for nine-year-olds, and therefore we've all had a few years to grapple with their complexity. Admittedly that's in the UK so your experience might be different, but I think it's safe to assume that the teenagers and adult women of this board will somehow struggle through.

ETA: Apologies for snark. I bow to karategrrl's calm tolerance.
karategrrl
WOW, I missed a lot over the weekend! tongue.gif

A few points:

1. Movies:
Saw the new Resident Evil over the weekend movie starring my gal, Milla Jovovich. LOVE HER! Okay, the plot wasn't great, and it was retarded to see her and the other people in the movie impeccably makeup-ed while they were supposedly fighting for their lives in apocolyptic conditions. BUT...Milla rocked her booblets sans padding, bra, or apology. Wonderfully refreshing. Magically delicious.

Also saw the classic Bonnie & Clyde for the first time. Faye Dunaway wasn't wearing a bra the whole time. Much nipplage ensued. Hot.

2. Tales from Braless, Mirrorless Land:
Forgive me, but I have C.R.S. (Canít Remember Shit) and have forgotten the screen name of the anthropologist who went braless on her recent jaunt. TELL! DO TELL!!! We want to know and be inspired!!

3. Okay, on to the hot topic:
While I have not personally liked everything JAG has said (and yes, at times some things he's said seemed to me to hint at the wordiness or the "look at me, I'm so sensitive") this is a forum of discussion. No one told JAG that he couldn't post here or asked him to leave, so he hasn't.

With MORE than a little bit of reservation, I emailed JAG off-board a couple weeks ago and asked for his take on a "guy thing." It was off-topic, so I did so off-board. (Like it or not, Iím married to a guy-guy who doesnít have much of a talent for words, and in trying to understand some male behavior, Iím really at a loss. Yes, if I were single, Iíd say "fuck it"and just not give the time of day to any guy-guy. But Iím married, so I have to give this some effort.) Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, JAG provided some perspective. No, I did not agree with or like all he had to say, but in his response were threads of useful info that really do help me "get" my hubby. JAG did not volunteer--I asked. It was helpful to me.

That said, honestly I, too, feel a little weird having a guy hereósometimes I just want to be with you girls. And yes, Iíve often questioned JAGís motives and presence here, and the frequency and length of posts lately.

Iíve been a member here for 3 years, I think. I really enjoy reading everyoneís posts, and though I may not agree with them all, I respect them and relish the chance to just hear and understand othersí views here. Weíve had some interesting folks come in and outómale (remember Smoove-B, anyone??!!) and female (and yes, I also miss dj-biz monkey, who I think is crazy busy with school). I hope my posts have been useful or at least as thought-provoking as all of yours have been to me.

My personal feelings about JAG are mixed, but if Iím getting this right, what Iím seeing with the majority of regulars here is that they feel uncomfortable with JAG, and that the discomfort is increasing. Majority rules. If you donít want him here or would prefer that he just lurk, just say so. Iím sure heíll get it. If everyone would feel more comfy with this forum being female-only, maybe it should be specified.
roseviolet
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Sep 27 2010, 09:00 AM) *
Iím sure heíll get it. If everyone would feel more comfy with this forum being female-only, maybe it should be specified.


Just a clarification, Karategrrl. Did you mean to say "thread" instead of "forum"? The Bust Lounge is a forum. The small breast support group is a thread within a forum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

For those of you who know me, you will not be surprised to hear that I strongly support the presence of men on Bust. For over 5 years I've been married to a man I met through this very forum. There are some other fantastic guys who have participated on these forums over the years and I'm happy to consider them my friends.

But they behaved differently than how JAG has behaved so far.

I am highly suspicious of guys who show up and post in ONLY the sex threads or the threads that focus on breasts and female genitalia. It makes me wonder how they found Bust in the first place. It makes me wonder why they're sticking around. It makes me wonder if they're incapable of engaging in normal conversations with women about non-sexual topics. Ordinarily, these characters seem stunted to me and pretty clueless about feminism and the female experience. They offer their perspective, but their comments on the perspectives of others seems veiled in condescension. The saddest ones are the guys who *think* they're behaving in a feminist manner, yet continue to fall back on the same patronizing bullshit that AP mentioned earlier. IF THEY ARE SMART, these guys will heed OUR advice (rather than just offering their own), and begin to learn from their experience here. If they aren't, they'll collect up their bruised egos and limp away.

Note: I do not think it takes a tough guy to be accepted here. Far from it. All it takes is a human being who respects the rest of us as fellow human beings. We're a loving group. Sometimes we get spicy. Sometimes we fight. That's because we're all unique individuals and, invariably, we'll disagree from time to time. Yet there is a lot of love and support and mutual respect here. If you can feel some genuine humility and empathy towards the unique experiences of other human beings, you'll be happy here. But if you act like you're The Voice Of Men on this forum, you're going to suffer.

JAG, we share information here. You may give it, but you gotta learn to take it, too. Because, buddy, you've got a lot to learn.


Anarch, thank you so much for finding and posting that quote from AuralPoison. And thank you, AP, for writing it in the first place.
just_a_guy
First off, I'd like to thank roseviolet, karategrrl, Persiflager, anarch, and angie_21 (in reverse post order)

You've given me a lot of food for thought, and I'll probably read your posts a few more times before I digest it all.

I'd also like to point out that I've been posting in this thread (as opposed to others) because I was directed to it through a news paper article forwarded by a female friend (as I said in my first post) and I get email notifications when there is a new post, not because I don't want to engage in discussions in other threads. I'm sure that I have plenty to learn, and plenty to say, about feminism, prop-8, and a plethora of other issues that are probably on here somewhere.

That said, I work two jobs and started posting here smack dab in the middle of Jewish holiday season, so I haven't exactly had a lot of free time to look around.

Angie: you, in particular, made some very valid points, and if you'd be willing to point me toward some online resources via PM I'd love to read up on the topics you suggested, because you're right: It's outside my area of expertise.

You were particularly right about my last post being overly condescending and rude. I hope that you can understand the frustration of what feels like character assassination, against which there is no defense. It doesn't excuse it, but I hope it at least explains it.

I still maintain that I have every right to call myself a BUSTie, not because I filled out a registration form, but because I am honestly trying to contribute something. If I'm failing that's a different issue.

The only reason I mentioned the reverse sexism angle was because of the fact that the "how can women feel comfortable talking about insecurities in front of men" argument has been included in multiple critical responses to my posts.

I DO think that it's ridiculous to say that I can't empathize with the plight of women's self-image issues because mine are not exactly the same, but I've also seen drug addicts get kicked out of AA meetings for not being alcoholics, and literally watched a heroin and a crack addict argue about how stupid the other was without seeing the similarities in their states. Although I do not personally suffer from addictions to any substance I've been to AA, NA, CA, SA, SAA, SLAA, MA, Codependency, Al-Anon, and Al-ATeen meetings and as far as I can see, the underlying issues are pretty much the same across the board. Not suffering the exact same manifestation doesn;t preclude empathy.

The half tongue in cheek comments in my initial post were more intended to be truthful about my personality than to be rude or condescending, and when I say I've tried to talk women out of getting implants perhaps I should have specified that I was trying to convince them to address their insecurities before making a decision to undergo a potentially life-threatening cosmetic procedure.

I don't know how many people have complained about me to other members of the board, but I certainly haven't received those PMs, and they are more than welcome to direct their complaints to me. As far as I know I've received more positive feedback than negative here.

Sometimes I can be an entitled, judgmental, narcissistic, self-indulgent, jack-ass, know-it-all. Although I am intelligent, I am still young. I certainly don't know it all and I am certainly open to hearing other points of view, particularly when they are founded in reason and research. As far as my negative personality traits go, I'm slowly learning to cut my self some slack for not being perfect. Sometimes that comes across as unapologetic.

Still, maybe it's time for me to lurk a little more before I post, or not post at all in this thread if that's the consensus.

ps- karategrrl: after APs post regarding her take on my personality type, my first gut was to contact you and ask if you felt it was accurate. Instead I chose to have a few close friends read it and give me their opinions of how well the shoe fit and contacted AP directly to discuss our differences (partially because they know me much more intimately, and partially because I didn't want to come off as asking you to defend me). I do want to thank you for your honest opinion about me, good and bad.

I'll shut up now.
starship
I'm half way through catching up (woah a lot happened the last 2 days) and just got to this....
QUOTE(just_a_guy @ Sep 26 2010, 05:41 PM) *
For one, I'd argue that my breasts are as small as anybody else in this room.

Excuse me but you do not have breasts. period. How is this comment different from all those I've gotten in the past telling me some random chubby guy on the street/beach has 'bigger boobs than me'. Ugh.
I'm with Buttercups in wondering what your motives are for being here :S. We don't need some booby superman stepping in to save us.

Maybe the rest of the posts will enlighten me. *Gets back to her catch up sesh*
starship
Ok, I'll ignore the big fat elephant in the room and just add my quick 2cents on a few other comments before bed...

QUOTE(melis19750 @ Sep 26 2010, 07:17 PM) *
but i just wanted to say I have always wished for a smaller size- like a nice full B cup or small C

Thats all I've wished for too honey.

QUOTE(auralpoison @ Sep 27 2010, 01:12 AM) *
ETA: I forgot about this Ignoble winner: the Emergency Bra!
[/color]

Lol, I'd probably feel safer keeping one of my bigger busted friends to hand in case of emergency. My cups would barely cover my nose and mouth

QUOTE(anarch @ Sep 27 2010, 06:15 AM) *
Also, I miss dj-bizmonkey. Anybody know where she went?

Wow, me too! You just reminded me of her awesome posts. I hope she is just busy and comes back some time.

QUOTE(roseviolet @ Sep 27 2010, 05:05 PM) *
For over 5 years I've been married to a man I met through this very forum.

Not boob-related but I didn't know this and just wanted to say how awesome I think it is:)

Also today I helped a woman in a store find some 28aa bras for her 12 year old daughter and shared a brief conversation with her about how we hate being 'taken over' by young girls. Not in a bitter way, we just joked about it a bit and shared a few quick stories. She was probably old enough to be my mum too but we still had the same body-issues and were able to laugh about them together. I felt like I'd met one of you guys in real life smile.gif

Oh and after reading a link from here a few weeks back I bought a bra in a 32b instead of 34a and it fits! I was pathetically excited to be buying a B-cup bra. Although this was a particular bra that I'd bought before in a 34a and I knew it fitted me in that size (I'm not a real 34a!). Anyway, the link was correct and it does fit me a lot better and 'moves around' a lot less than the 34a version I'd been wearing.

Night all x

auralpoison
QUOTE(starship @ Sep 27 2010, 05:50 PM) *
Lol, I'd probably feel safer keeping one of my bigger busted friends to hand in case of emergency. My cups would barely cover my nose and mouth

Persi posted this last week, Bra Purse. laugh.gif
nbdx0645
QUOTE(starship @ Sep 27 2010, 04:50 PM) *
Oh and after reading a link from here a few weeks back I bought a bra in a 32b instead of 34a and it fits! I was pathetically excited to be buying a B-cup bra. Although this was a particular bra that I'd bought before in a 34a and I knew it fitted me in that size (I'm not a real 34a!). Anyway, the link was correct and it does fit me a lot better and 'moves around' a lot less than the 34a version I'd been wearing.


My bra size changed from a 34 to a 32, too. The 32A is a bit snug in the top of the cup (their sizing runs smallish) but I prefer my bras on the tighter side, since they loosen up after some breaking-in. I think I'm going to modify my 34's by cutting an inch and a half of back band and sewing on the hook and eye.
roseviolet
QUOTE(just_a_guy @ Sep 27 2010, 03:16 PM) *
I'd also like to point out that I've been posting in this thread (as opposed to others) because I was directed to it through a news paper article forwarded by a female friend ...



Wait a sec ...
There is a newspaper article out there somewhere that has a link to this thread? JAG, could you provide us with a link to that article? I'd really like to see it. Not doubting you or anything. I'm just curious about why the author of that article felt compelled to write about this thread.
discowombat
QUOTE(roseviolet @ Sep 27 2010, 09:34 PM) *
Wait a sec ...
There is a newspaper article out there somewhere that has a link to this thread? JAG, could you provide us with a link to that article? I'd really like to see it. Not doubting you or anything. I'm just curious about why the author of that article felt compelled to write about this thread.


I don't remember where it was but I have heard in the past that our thread has been mentioned here and there. Kinda makes it awkward doesn't it? It reminds you that anyone can be all up in our business whether we like it or not. Despite the anonymity of the internet it does kind of make you clam up for a bit. Well, I do anyways.
sukouyant
Wait, wait...Persiflager is a man?!? *adjusts paradigm*



To be sure, there are at least two mentions of this thread in articles across the web, and passages of the thread have been quoted. i think it's come up before.
discowombat
QUOTE(sukouyant @ Sep 27 2010, 10:05 PM) *
Wait, wait...Persiflager is a man?!? *adjusts paradigm*


I think she's saying she's a woman with large breasts. :-) (please ignore me if that was meant as a joke and I missed it. It's been a hell of a month, lol)
auralpoison
I remeber that one article & well because it pissed me the fuck off. It was on the Frisky webpage. They didn't talk to anybody here, they just put it out there & they even quoted Kerabear. I mean, I know they didn't mean any harm & that it might have led ladies that needed a safe space here to the Lounge, but it also put it out there for the chodes to come a'runnin'. Thankfully they didn't.

I couldn't find anything from the LATimes, but I did spend a bit of time looking. Sorry. Perhaps it was from somewhere else, J_A_G will have to provide the link if he still has it.
just_a_guy
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Sep 27 2010, 08:58 PM) *
I remeber that one article & well because it pissed me the fuck off. It was on the Frisky webpage. They didn't talk to anybody here, they just put it out there & they even quoted Kerabear. I mean, I know they didn't mean any harm & that it might have led ladies that needed a safe space here to the Lounge, but it also put it out there for the chodes to come a'runnin'. Thankfully they didn't.

I couldn't find anything from the LATimes, but I did spend a bit of time looking. Sorry. Perhaps it was from somewhere else, J_A_G will have to provide the link if he still has it.


The article I referred to earlier was in the NY Times (two of my best friends moved there recently):

FASHION & STYLE | September 02, 2010
For the A-Cup Crowd, Minimal Assets Are a Plus
By CATHERINE SAINT LOUIS
Many women these days want to showcase their small chests, not pad them out. Retailers are listening.

Persiflager
Correct, discowombat, I am a large-boobed lady!

I just wanted to point out that JAG was incorrect in thinking that any criticism of him was based on being a man. This is a very welcoming thread, but I know that in the past you've had as many 'well-meaning but annoying' posts from large-boobed ladies as you have from men, and I think that the same rules apply. We've all come out of the woodwork over the past couple of days because it's been all exciting in here, but I usually just lurk unless I feel I have something particularly useful to add that isn't 'Oh woe is me, you don't understand the inconvenience of these massive melons!'.
karategrrl
QUOTE(Persiflager @ Sep 28 2010, 07:03 AM) *
I just wanted to point out that JAG was incorrect in thinking that any criticism of him was based on being a man. This is a very welcoming thread, but I know that in the past you've had as many 'well-meaning but annoying' posts from large-boobed ladies as you have from men, and I think that the same rules apply. We've all come out of the woodwork over the past couple of days because it's been all exciting in here, but I usually just lurk unless I feel I have something particularly useful to add that isn't 'Oh woe is me, you don't understand the inconvenience of these massive melons!'.

Bless you, persi, for understanding. SO true!

Interesting LA Times article--I'd not seen it before. Of course, I don't like thier use of the term "flat-chested." As we've discussed in here before, there really is no such thing.

Thanks for the Bra Purse and Emergency Bra links! Funny! In the latest Frederick's of Hollywod catalog, they have a convertible bra that can be worn as either a bra or garter belt. Though it's one of those rare times it's advantageous to have a bra in a smaller size (so it fits flat around the waist) it does look kinds dumb when worn as the garter. I'd post a link but I'm at work and blocked to that site.

roseviolet, I could SO relate to this:
"It makes me wonder if they're incapable of engaging in normal conversations with women about non-sexual topics. Ordinarily, these characters seem stunted to me and pretty clueless about feminism and the female experience. They offer their perspective, but their comments on the perspectives of others seems veiled in condescension. The saddest ones are the guys who *think* they're behaving in a feminist manner, yet continue to fall back on the same patronizing bullshit that AP mentioned earlier. IF THEY ARE SMART, these guys will heed OUR advice (rather than just offering their own), and begin to learn from their experience here. If they aren't, they'll collect up their bruised egos and limp away."

You put into words what I've become entirely sick of in my own interpersonal experiences with too many males. No offense to anyone--it's been my experience, and waaay too often.
koffeewitch
I'm curious, sisters...I've been trying to think of men in the Lounge who haven't hit the tittie and porn threads...I've come up with Changus Khan (usually posts in the Canadian and political threads) and Billie Bonka. You veteran Busties will have to tell me if we've had any others.

My personal opinion (and it's only that, MY opinion) is that men are quite welcome in the Lounge... AND even in a space like this thread, IF they communicate whatever point they have to contribute and then move into another thread that is not by definition a safe place for women with specific issues to support one another and work out their shit. I don't spend a whole lotta time here either; I don't feel it's exactly my place (even though I'm a small-bust wannabe). There are a zillion threads here in the Lounge...I feel like any guy who spends a great deal of space in a thread very specifically for women (places where we yak about our periods or whatever) is ignorant to his intrusiveness OR he knows he is intrusive and just doesn't give a shit. The internet is a big place. Find your niche, even visit other niches...but let people have a margin of safely in their own communities.
pollystyrene
QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Sep 28 2010, 01:35 PM) *
I'm curious, sisters...I've been trying to think of men in the Lounge who haven't hit the tittie and porn threads...I've come up with Changus Khan (usually posts in the Canadian and political threads) and Billie Bonka. You veteran Busties will have to tell me if we've had any others.

My personal opinion (and it's only that, MY opinion) is that men are quite welcome in the Lounge... AND even in a space like this thread, IF they communicate whatever point they have to contribute and then move into another thread that is not by definition a safe place for women with specific issues to support one another and work out their shit. I don't spend a whole lotta time here either; I don't feel it's exactly my place (even though I'm a small-bust wannabe). There are a zillion threads here in the Lounge...I feel like any guy who spends a great deal of space in a thread very specifically for women (places where we yak about our periods or whatever) is ignorant to his intrusiveness OR he knows he is intrusive and just doesn't give a shit. The internet is a big place. Find your niche, even visit other niches...but let people have a margin of safely in their own communities.


Doxy.

Meerkat was a dude, right?

Mr. Fall Jackets.

Sheff, of course.

Turbomann.
enfermera
and bob 4 both
pollystyrene
Oh, yeah, bob. All able to have a conversation that takes place out of the porn and boob threads. Hmm.
auralpoison
Kalevra! Kalevra was farking AWESOME. I miss that dude. We talked much relationship junk. And Speedy. Speedy was a RIOT!

And keep forgetting to say I miss DJBizmonkey, too. I miss a lot of the Pre-Great Bustie Exodus peoples.
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