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strongirl
I agree with y'all. I really admire Spot-on for her intelligence, honesty, and generosity and I will miss her posts. (And Spot-on, I also think it'd be lovely if you decide to pop in now and again to share.) At the same time, the purpose of this thread is to celebrate the positive experiences of life with small breasts and to support each other through the negative experiences. Post-implants, there's not much we can offer her and vice versa.

And I so agree with you, Karategrrl, about how awesome this place is - that is the real reason I continue to read and post here. Somehow, it has attracted an absolutely amazing bunch of women who are not just smart but wise. The insights go far beyond body issues and into social dynamics, relationships, and just plain how to live life well. I've been deeply moved by the things that folks in here have dealt with and impressed by the level of intelligence and just plain good-heartedness. I honestly don't think about boobs that much and truly do love and enjoy mine, but I keep coming here because you all are just so freaking cool!!!

I really liked that article, Karategrrl - and I think there are lots of men who think that way, they just need more encouragement to speak up.

nbdx, so much is going on in here but I don't want to miss commenting on your post below. I thought the way you addressed Spot-on was very graceful and sensitive. I admired the way you handled that. And the same in your perspective on your mom. You are coming from a high place, and your balance and dignity shows.
discowombat
Random thought, but I watched the Swedish version of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo movie and Noomi Rapace is smoking hot and a total badass in it. She has small breasts but the character she plays is clearly comfortable with her body.
coffeebean
I have been a long time lurker here and I feel horrible that spot-on felt as though she had to leave! I really don't think that she had a choice, but rather the recent comments on this board made her feel so uncomfortable that leaving was a form of self-preservation.

Also, not to put you on the spot Karategrrl, but this comment really got to me: "I feel bad that spot-on is leaving the forum but since it's a small breast support forum, well, I understand." This implies that spot-on would not have been able to cheer on/support/empathize with other women who were happy with/struggling with breast body issues just because her breast size changed. I don't think that it is mandatory that someone have small breasts at this exact moment to be able to relate to many of the stories shared on this board. What about the woman who developed breasts in her 20's but still carries around negative feelings about having small breasts because she was teased throughout high school (this is me by the way)? What about the woman who had small breasts all of her life until a sudden weight gain and then her breasts also became larger. Internal feelings do not always change just because the exterior does. Moreover, even if spot-on's internal feelings did change as a result of exterior change, I think that she should have been given more credit (as a long time poster) that she would not have tromped all over the feelings of others.
auralpoison
QUOTE(coffeebean @ Jan 27 2011, 04:51 PM) *
I have been a long time lurker here and I feel horrible that spot-on felt as though she had to leave! I really don't think that she had a choice, but rather the recent comments on this board made her feel so uncomfortable that leaving was a form of self-preservation.

Also, not to put you on the spot Karategrrl, but this comment really got to me: "I feel bad that spot-on is leaving the forum but since it's a small breast support forum, well, I understand." This implies that spot-on would not have been able to cheer on/support/empathize with other women who were happy with/struggling with breast body issues just because her breast size changed. I don't think that it is mandatory that someone have small breasts at this exact moment to be able to relate to many of the stories shared on this board. What about the woman who developed breasts in her 20's but still carries around negative feelings about having small breasts because she was teased throughout high school (this is me by the way)? What about the woman who had small breasts all of her life until a sudden weight gain and then her breasts also became larger. Internal feelings do not always change just because the exterior does. Moreover, even if spot-on's internal feelings did change as a result of exterior change, I think that she should have been given more credit (as a long time poster) that she would not have tromped all over the feelings of others.


I know my opinion is meaningless, but, uh, THIS. Really well done.

That being said however, more news today on the link between implants & a rare cancer.

insideout
Hmmm I suppose I'll leave after this post too, I don't seem to fit in here at all although I've lurked for years as well. I think it was a mistake trying to become an active member. Just some parting thoughts: I hope my comments were not taken to be malicious - it was not my intention to hurt or attack anyone. Good luck and stay strong smile.gif
buttercups
Why are all my small boobied sisters leaving?? Implanted, formerly small, small now, or even never been small- I don't care I love all of you and I don't want you to go. I value all of your opinions and I think we all have something to offer on this topic. I haven't had a chance to read everything posted here recently, but even if there were some disagreements well that's what happens in families and we are a small-bustie family (even if we all aren't necessarily small-busted) and we need to stick together! I respect all of your views and love hearing everyone's perspective. A lot would be lost from this place if you guys should leave. You have all contributed to helping my self-image immensely and I would hate to no longer hear from any of you! Please reconsider!

P.S. Thanks for posting that link AP- I always like to stay informed, especially about something like that!
angie_21
I'm a bit sad about so many people leaving, but I suppose I have been one of them! I still lurk here from time to time, but have stopped posting for a few reasons, the biggest one being that this particular thread is very active and I just plain don't have the free time to keep up anymore. But also, I have reached a point in my life where I just don't care about my breasts anymore. I think I am beautiful as I am, and so are they. Not only is there absolutely nothing wrong with them, I think they are pretty fantastic. I don't need support about it. And I don't want to keep exposing myself to the idea that I do, its harmful to my well-being. I've had so much positive attention to my physical appearance after losing weight last summer (and losing a little bit of my already limited boobage in the process) that I just don't see how I could complain about how I look. I love that I can change my appearance depending on my mood or outfit using different bras, and option I wouldn't have if I was naturally well endowed - you can always add padding, but you can only minimize whats already there so much.

I love all you girls, and miss talking with you. I hope spot-on continues to be happy with her decision and I understand why she made it. If I was still unhappy with my appearance, maybe I would consider it in the future too, but I am relieved to be thrilled with how I look without having to spend that kind of money or any health risks. The point of being here is that we want to stop obsessing about our appearance and feeling bad about ourselves. Whether or not implants are a part of the problem for many girls, I have been able to love myself and how I look regardless of what other people out there look like. I hope everyone else here is one day able to do the same, because it is emotionally damaging and limiting not to be able to. There will always be someone out there who is in some way prettier, smarter, funnier, luckier, wealthier, etc, it's inescapable. And to others, we may always be that other "better" person in many ways as well. There's too much going on in the world to waste time worrying about it!

Love to all my small-busted girls out there! May you find your peace as well smile.gif
anarch
QUOTE(strongirl @ Jan 26 2011, 11:15 AM) *
I agree with y'all. I really admire Spot-on for her intelligence, honesty, and generosity and I will miss her posts. (And Spot-on, I also think it'd be lovely if you decide to pop in now and again to share.) At the same time, the purpose of this thread is to celebrate the positive experiences of life with small breasts and to support each other through the negative experiences.


I've been debating whether to voice my own opinion, but since this comment captures the ambivalence I've been feeling, I'll just voice it. If people take exception to what I say, I may decide to clarify my meaning once or twice, but I won't draw it out into an argument.

Spot-on's contributions have been consistently thoughtful, compassionate, and well worded. Her account of her decision and the surgery was generous and informative. I'm glad she made a decision that feels right for her.

And...this forum's original purpose (somebody correct me if I'm mistaken) was to give small-boobed women and girls a place for consistently hearing and saying stuff like "Hey, small boobs are not defective. They're perfect, sexy, and beautiful just as they are. Social messages that tell us that small boobs make a woman unsexy and undesirable -- those messages are what's defective. People in our lives who sneer at and put down women with small boobs, for having small boobs, their attitudes and behavior are defective too. Not small boobs." It created a safe space, a rare niche, where we could get away, some, from the idea that small boobs are a problem. In so much of mainstream culture, the assumption "Small boobs are defective" goes unquestioned, it's just taken as a given. Here, we questioned it. I hung out here because I valued that.

coffeebean (I'm sorry, I can't figure out how to quote more than one person at a time) said: This implies that spot-on would not have been able to cheer on/support/empathize with other women who were happy with/struggling with breast body issues just because her breast size changed. I don't think that it is mandatory that someone have small breasts at this exact moment to be able to relate to many of the stories shared on this board. What about the woman who developed breasts in her 20's but still carries around negative feelings about having small breasts because she was teased throughout high school (this is me by the way)? What about the woman who had small breasts all of her life until a sudden weight gain and then her breasts also became larger. Internal feelings do not always change just because the exterior does.

This is true. At the same time, I've been trying to reconcile sentiments like (even a lighthearted) "you MAY find in the future that your opinion and attitude towards [implants] may change," (I would have interpreted this comment as entirely respectful, just as all of Spot-on's comments always have been), with "Small boobs are perfect as they are. They're not defective." Trying to reconcile, and failing. Maybe y'all have perspectives on this that would help me see it in a different light, but at the moment, they look incompatible to me. I think the original purpose of this thread could handle an occasional remark along those lines. But not if it became a regular thing. It seemed to me that this could very well open the door to implants becoming a regular thing generally talked about in here with approval, since of course women have to make decisions that are right for them, and it's wrong to attack them for doing so. So if more regular commenters went for implants and also kept on posting in here, then it'd be difficult to critique the mainstream unquestioned "boob jobs are improvements on genetic defects" culture without triggering conflicts and hurt feelings. If most people in here were comfortable with this forum going in that direction, then...

Well, I didn't see many people airing these kinds of reservations during one of the intermittent times that I checked in here during Dec-Jan, so I thought to myself, "This is different. I very much prefer being around 'small boobs are not inferior. They are perfect just as they are and women who have small boobs are also perfect just as they are' messages. But it looks like the small boobs thread is evolving into something that conflicts with that message. And it looks like most of the posters there are comfortable with it. I'm not. So instead of upsetting people with my reservations, I'll just leave the thread to the people who are happy to embrace this change."

There's enough validation in our culture for boob enlargements as it is, I thought. It's freakin' everywhere. It was nice to have this one place to go to, where we could both freely critique the popular assumption that small-breasted women should want to get boob jobs because they're unsexy without...and get encouragement and validation for loving our bodies just as they are.
karategrrl
anarch, very well said. I can't really add anything much except to echo that it seemed like the tone was changing--we all were supportive of spot-on in her decision (and I am, too), but it could potentially change what this forum is all about. You put it best when you said:

"So if more regular commenters went for implants and also kept on posting in here, then it'd be difficult to critique the mainstream unquestioned "boob jobs are improvements on genetic defects" culture without triggering conflicts and hurt feelings."

Coffeebean, you misunderstood me. What I meant about spot-on was that WE had nothing to offer HER as far as small breast support because well, she no longer has them. I admit I'm a tad pissy to have my comment singled out because I've been a long-time poster here and was VERY supportive to spot-on both on- and off-board (despite my personal feelings against them), and have always tried to contribute to this forum and support everyone here. I would think I would be given the benefit of the doubt. But we are all here to discuss things out in the open, so I'm glad you said what was on your mind.

That said, welcome, coffeebean! smile.gif And lurk no more.
strongirl
Karategrrl, I kept wanting to defend you because I thought you had been misinterpreted and you really have been extremely supportive to Spot-on throughout. But I was worried I might be misinterpreted myself or that worse, I might mis-represent you, so I thought it was better to keep my trap shut and let you speak for yourself. I'm glad you did.

strongirl
anarch, that was a long post but I agree with karategrrl, very well said.

"There's enough validation in our culture for boob enlargements as it is, I thought. It's freakin' everywhere."

Exactly.
coffeebean
Anarch, great post! I can completely empathize with the feelings of ambivalence that you were having with regard to the way this tread was going and do concur with you and the other ladies in supporting a tread that supports/embraces/celebrates women with small breasts. Regardless of my protective comments of spot-on, I do want this community to remain supportive, protective, tolerant, and safe for all members to post.

I apologize to you Karategrrl for centering you out! I chose to quote your words in haste and realize that it would have been better to speak more generally about my perceived change in feelings towards spot-on and her decision. I have to admit that there were a several comments made by a number of members that got my 'alarm bells' going off with regard to spot-on not being able to empathize/support/contribute because her outward appearance changed. With that said, I have been following the thread long enough to fully acknowledge that everyone was very supportive of spot-on throughout the time she was considering getting implants right up until after her surgery!

I guess my hope in moving forward is that we can continue to support each other in whatever bra size we find ourselves in!
nbdx0645
What they said.

I stand back in awe when I read the recent posts. There's really no place like this. I don't need this space like I used to; what Angie said holds true for me, too. My body once consumed every day of my life for multiple hours a day, and now it's way, way down from that. It also helped ease my fears about aging and injury. It did more than teach me to find peace with my breasts; it made me place less emphasis on the body (mine and others.) Does that make sense? I hope so.

I'm hoping that the small breast support group sticks around and that the recent posts could serve as a great backlog.
anarch
I hope we all can continue to hash out what we need to around this. I don't want to have inadvertently silenced anyone. I think y'all are cool and have perspectives I enjoy learning from. This afternoon I was thinking about all this, and I suddenly wondered, was there ever a cosmetic surgery thread in the Lounge? I half-remember some talk of one, a few years back, but maybe I'm just wrong.

On a lighter note, I like this lace V-neck Victoria's Secret top.

(Also, sorry the previous post got long. I re-wrote it a few times to try to make my disagreement as respectful as I could. And then it was past bedtime, so I went "Wordiness, so what" and hit post.)
nbdx0645
QUOTE(anarch @ Jan 31 2011, 08:49 PM) *
(Also, sorry the previous post got long. I re-wrote it a few times to try to make my disagreement as respectful as I could. And then it was past bedtime, so I went "Wordiness, so what" and hit post.)


I don't care if posts get long when they contain content like that.

That top is so cute (and it's fully lined!) That'd be a great top sans bra. wink.gif
Edit: I found this bra this bandeau on clearance.

I kept browsing through the shirts and really liked this button-down and this daring top and this going-out top and this work appropriate button-down omg I can't stop this too!
karategrrl
Hey strongirl, thanks for wanting to jump up and support me. Ha, I have to laugh--I'm always the one jumping up to defend others. Nice to get that back!

That said, cofeebean, no harm done. I realize this is the typed word we're communicating through here and things can get misconstrued. Glad you finally got "unlurked!" Woot! (I am drinking coffee as I type...ha.)


I have to echo others' sentiments in that I first came here, years ago, completely frustrated about size and wondering if there was anyone else in the freaking world who understood how I was feeling--about small breasts, implants, and the influence of society on body image, etc. I did a Google search for "small breast support group" really tongue-in-cheeck and NOT expecting to really find anything. I then stayed up for 3 hours--til like 2 a.m.--reading all the back-posts in total awe. I feel that frustration on a smaller scale now than I did then. and I owe a lot of that to all of you. This is no longer just a "support group" for me, but a place where I can go for some truly INTELLIGENT discussion about lots of things--not just breasts!

When spot-on first posted about her decision to have the surgery, and as she gave updates, On one level I read the posts with great interest and curiousity, but on another level I wondered how it was going to affect the group and where we were all going. I'm sorry to see her go but glad this space still exists. My bain will starve without it! Ha.

You all rock mightily.
dj-bizmonkey
i don't have much to add, just that i totally agree with anarch's post. i couldn't have said it better myself. i went on vacation this weekend and forgot my computer cord so i was away from the interwebs reliably. i think this thread is very special, and as i said before, it is what originally brought me to bust in the first place. the fact that it is so active is a testament to the challenges we face in our western, breast-obsessed media saturated culture.

have any of you seen this documentary? http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/busting-out/

i thought it was just o.k. though there are some interesting parts. interesting information but obviously a kind of self-serving first-time filmmaker documentary.
limousine
I haven't posted since the summertime, but I've lurked on a religious basis.

The group is a one-of-a-kind place. It has been a reliable source of support and insight for me. I am especially grateful for the opportunity to vent and express difficult feelings to an understanding soul. Shame, anger, jealousy, envy and fear come to mind.

On another note, when dressing for an informal debate recently, I felt uncomfortable with the sexiness of my outfit. Namely, I was wearing heeled booties with a tight skirt. Before leaving, I decided to change to a more discreet outfit. I have an active (or healthy?) sense of modesty. And I thought, why do I covet boobs when I feel uncomfortable flaunting what I've got? Now, of course, having them does not imply flaunting them, even if minimally. However, I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I'd love to, once in a while for a special occasion, sport some cleavage. But I'm not even sure that I could mentally stomach wearing cleavage in public...and I wonder how the women that do it do it? Do you get used to it? I mean I can't help but look at cleavage so I'm assuming the women that display it are aware of the attention it generates. I just wonder how it feels...but at the same time maybe I know because on my own sexy level, I feel uncomfortable. Perhaps that is the answer to my query : even if I could, I wouldn't, so just let go.
buttercups
This place has done wonders for me as well and I don't know where I would be today without all of you. Having little-to-no breasts has plagued me all of my adult life, and I can honestly say that there are times now when I feel less down about it because of all of you. Even right now I am struggling with my body image again, and every time I think how ugly I look I think about you guys and how you would kick my ass, and it helps haha! I can't say I love my body, because truth be told I really don't. I see flaws in it every where I look and being out in the world has so many triggers for me in our society, but at least I have this place to talk about it. I did appreciate the dialogue with spot-on because I sorta see myself as one of the weaker ones- like I can't guarantee that I will never fall victim to the pressure of getting implants because I do have such a negative body image. On the other hand, whenever I bring up implants to my bf or anyone else what I am really searching for is for someone to talk me out of it, so I think that says a lot. It terrifies me and I really want to find a way to at least live in my natural body and not feel abnormal or out of place. I think my breasts are a lot smaller than most people's here, and that can make it hard because if I even had half of what you guys do and could classify them as "small breasts" I know I would feel better about myself. I could see myself getting implants just to bring me to an A cup for chrissake! In that respect part of me feels as though I would be justified in getting my breasts done because I see what I look like as almost a deformity or a medical problem that anyone else in my position would fix, but the method of fixing it does scare me and I rely on this place to try and continually talk myself out of it.

All this being said, I guy that I had hooked up with in the past and am still in contact with was talking to me about his trials and tribulations with online dating. I made a joke that at least any girl he could possibly be with would be more "stacked" than me, so in that respect he couldn't really lose out. He told me that my body was his physical ideal and that it was like "art" to him. He said that he would truly take my breasts over any other (and I'm sitting here thinking what breasts???) and that he thought they were "shaped perfectly". He said after all these years he still thinks about me and if he were to compare me to any other woman he's ever been with, that I would always come out on top. I didn't know what to say, it was really weird to hear that. I don't understand how any man could like what I have, much less consider it his "physical ideal". Sometimes I worry that the only man that could ever like me would be one resembling a pedophile as I look like I haven't developed at all, but I try not to think about that too much anymore. I guess you never know what other people will think about your body, sometimes it can be surprising. I wish I could see myself the way that this guy does, the way that my bf says he does. I just can't imagine that they could possibly think that as I am so far away from everything that has ever been drilled into their heads that they should be attracted to.

P.S. I love when you guys post links to clothes! If only I had money right now I would buy all those VS tops!!
karategrrl
My dear buttercups sistah! You are totally gorgeous. I know--I've seen your photos when we exchanged them way back. I wish you could see you the way I and your boys do--beautiful, elegant. I also have to laugh b/c one of the best comments I EVER got in my life was from someone who also said my body was a work of art. So I guess us busties are built like fine works of art!?? Shit, I'll take that!

I wish there was something I could say that would magically, instantly make you feel confident and great, but that must come from you. All I can do is remind you that there is SSSOOOOO much more than damn fucking breasts that make up a woman--physically, there's her hair, smile, skin, eyes, how she carries herself, her voice, how she moves, etc.--and that doesn't even come close to the really important, non-physical stuff--brains, intellect, sense of humor, how she communicates, body language, interests, kindness, etc. I could go on and on. It's that unique cocktail of attributes that makes up each one of us.

I know we aren't concerned overly with men's opinions of us here, but as long as you brought that up, keep in mind that it's a woman with depth that has "staying power" in a man's heart--regardless of the size of the mammaries on her chest.

Hugs! Hugs! HUGS!!!!!!!
buttercups
Aww thanks karategrrl, you are amazing! I don't think it was me that exchanged pics though- at least I've been trying to remember if I ever have and I don't think that I have. I know its been mentioned before though so I've been trying to remember. But in any event, thank you so much and it's true that there is so much more to beauty than breasts. I just tend to fixate on that, but lately I've moved to other areas of my body as well that I don't like. I can name a flaw for everything, as I assume most women can unfortunately. I just wish our society wasn't so focused on looks- and on looking a certain way at that. I really want to get to a place where I can at least accept myself and not avoid looking in the mirror because I'm scared that what I see will make me feel bad about myself. I've found that if I avoid mirrors though and get dressed with my eyes closed and don't really see myself then I feel a lot better about myself. Sounds weird but it works for me. I just try to avoid seeing how my chest looks altogether and it helps me to ignore it and not worry so much about it. Does anyone else do this?
karategrrl
I'm sorry--I must have gotten your pics confused with someone else's, buttercups! But you know, if I saw pics of you I'm sure I'd love them! You certainly sound like you have a ton of stuff going for you, physically and otherwise.

I'm REALLY sorry you feel so self-conscious. I feel bad thinking of the inner turmoil you're going through. But, you know, I feel ya: sometimes I get a look of my backside in the mirror and--oh, the horrors! and that's right after I come back from the gym, feeling all strong and empowered, and then I go "Whoa! WTF!! Cellulite! Droopy skin! Fat ass!" But lately I catch myself before I get too far in that self-hatred rut, and I consciously focus on what I DO like, and try not to get down on what I don't like. I'm very conscious of the fact that I'm getting older, and have lots of LINES now when I smile and shit. Things wrinkling, drooping, on top of all the usual standards we women impose on ourselves. Gad, it could depress the fuck out of you if you let it.

So... buttercuppies...let's start turning that self-criticism around! What DO you like about yourself? Tell us!! Force yourself! There must be something! wink.gif Just one thing!! (Or two...or three...)

<More HUGS!>
strongirl
Ya know, it's funny about the mirror avoidance thing, Buttercups - when I was recovering from an eating disorder during college, I read Susie Orbach's book "Fat is a Feminist Issue" and a big part of what helped me overcome my body dysmorphic disorder was "mirror work", in which you stand in front of the mirror naked and appreciate your body, focus on various parts and just let your own love and esthetic appreciation flow, pose and preen, and bask in the positive image you project. Like Karategrrl says, focus on what you love about your body to start. At first it was really hard for me - my automatic response to looking in a mirror was a hawk-eyed critical sweep, shining a harsh spotlight on any perceived flaws - but after a while it got to be fun and very healing. I still do it. I highly recommend mirror work (read Orbach for more detail on how to do it).

I totally know what you mean, Karategrrl, re. the aging thing - I'm not going down without a fight. For me, it has to do with my identity. I don't want to look like some 18 year old...I want to keep looking like myself. Really old people and babies all look alike. I want to keep my individuality. So nutrition, exercise, good skincare, sleep, hydration, and stress management are all a big part of my strategy...and they're actually good for my health! Ya can't really say that about implants or facelifts.

Circling back on limousine's post below, I've always had a complex reaction to "modesty". In non-sexual situations like debates and office jobs and schools, I go out of my way to dress appropriately which to me means no sexual suggestiveness at all, so I probably would have made the same outfit adjustment you did, limousine. No cleavage, no nip show thru, no short skirts, etc. I wish it didn't matter but it does and if I want to be taken seriously and get my points across, sex needs to be out of the picture. On the other hand, I'm a shameless, lifelong skimpy, scanty, sexy dresser whenever I can get away with it! So at home, at bars, at parties, on the beach...I'm a terrible flaunter. And no, I don't have big boobs. But I flaunt all my assets including my little boobs, and I have many happy memories of positive responses ranging from looks to compliments to sexual adventures that I can reminisce about in my old age. In fact, I'm going to a bar tonight with the BF and another male friend, to party with the Burlesque troup that I took a class with last summer...so maybe I'll make some more memories. wink.gif

I also thought your wording about "wearing cleavage" was interesting. It reminds me of a woman I know who got implants and said she never felt really naked again, it was like she was always "wearing" something, her fake boobs. Personally, I like being able to get naked.

KeraBear
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Feb 2 2011, 10:49 AM) *
I wish there was something I could say that would magically, instantly make you feel confident and great, but that must come from you. All I can do is remind you that there is SSSOOOOO much more than damn fucking breasts that make up a woman--physically, there's her hair, smile, skin, eyes, how she carries herself, her voice, how she moves, etc.--and that doesn't even come close to the really important, non-physical stuff--brains, intellect, sense of humor, how she communicates, body language, interests, kindness, etc. I could go on and on. It's that unique cocktail of attributes that makes up each one of us.


I am glad you mentioned this, Karategrrl. It reminds me of when I was 15 (three looooooong years ago, ha ha) and only barely out of a training bra and waiting on my first period, and pretty down on myself. An older, wiser girlfriend told me, "being a woman is so much more than boobs and blood." So true!

One thing I appreciate about this forum is that it doesn't tolerate self criticism. The last time I tried that, karategrrl gave me a verbal smack! ha ha... I also appreciate how the members here have proven that I will only get better with age. wink.gif

nbdx0645
Eep! There's so much good stuff going on here it's difficult to address it all.

Strongirl, I think you recommended "Fat is a feminist issue" for me a little while back. I ordered the book from Amazon and I'm flying through my queue to get to it. I'm really looking forward to it. The Fat-acceptance movement and Health At Every Size really, really, REALLY helped me through the "beauty barrier" I was experiencing, especially since it's hard to find print material that's directly related to small boobs.

Buttercups, I've done some mirror work too, but the results in the beginning weren't very good. I'd get really emotional and I'd reinforce bad feelings verbally. My boyfriend suggested that to start, I couldn't say anything negative about my breasts out loud. Also, when I started looking at myself in the mirror, I'd wear a sexy unlined bra to start with, and it felt like a nice stepping stone into full frontal nudity. I also found that looking at them in the shower is nice, because the water feels so warm, comforting and relaxing.

I also used my chest as a storage facility. I'd place my life "failures" (for a lack of a better word) on my breasts. Be gentile on yourself because it's more than just the body part, it's the feelings and experiences that we attach to that body part which makes it so difficult. <BIGHUG>

I'm also digging all of the holistic healthcare talk that's going on. Inner health radiates outward, definitely. And I love Strongirl's past experiences of positive reactions to her body and confidence. So awesome! Ladies, you all rock so hard. I agree with KeraBear; I'm hoping that I too get better with time.
buttercups
Thanks guys, I love you all, you're the best! Karategrrl, for what its worth I'm in geriatrics and of course you're nowhere near that now haha, but I just wanted to say that I've seen so many beautiful women with wrinkles. I think they look so much more gorgeous naturally than all the alien women that are being created with botox and plastic surgery and facelifts. They all have that same look- like we've talked about so many times before. I especially love the smile lines because it shows me that the person has had a happy life. Those ones are the best! I hope maybe you can look at yours differently and see them as just a sign that you have enjoyed many great times and good laughs, that's what I see anytime I see them anyways. But aging can definitely be hard and I'm getting the lines to prove it too! I think I'd rather age naturally and beautifully though than become an ancient alien. I wish our culture had a more positive outlook on aging as well as everything else. We are all held to such impossibly high standards. When I see my patients they all comment about how young and beautiful I am. I tell them that beauty has no age, and surprisingly whenever I say that they all agree with me.

Strongirl I will definitely check out that book, thanks! I also love Susie, she is so inspiring! Mirror work scares me cause I really hate what I see. I don't know why I have such deep-set self-hatred, but it's something that I really need to work on. I wouldn't want any other woman to feel the way about herself that I feel and I always try and encourage others to see their beauty, I don't understand why I can't do that for myself and it makes me feel like a hypocrite. In any event, I will give it a good try. I keep hoping for some miracle fix, but I think I'm just going to have to keep trying to work through this issue and hope that with time it gets better. It already has but I still fall in those slumps. At least I'm a little more self-aware of them now thanks to all of you.

KeraBear you are so cute! And I mean that as a compliment cause I know we've all struggled with "cute" around here from time to time, but your posts just make me happy : ) I will also add that you are such an incredibly insightful young woman- I wish I had that insight at your age!
buttercups
Sorry for the double post, I missed nbdx- we mustve posted at about the same time haha!

Those are good suggestions, your bf sounds great too! I really like your thoughts on your chest being an emotional storage facility- that is definitely what I think I've done over the years. Oh man I've been a hoarder! I think I also get sad when I think about all the experiences that I miss out on by looking this way- I will never feel what it's like to truly have breasts- ones that are actually measurable and have weight to them. As a woman that is just something that I want to experience- what it's like to have some weight on my chest. I think I need to accept that that wont happen to me in order to move on from this. It feels like I have an arm that is missing a hand or something and I keep waiting for that hand to appear, but it's not going to. It's like my body is incomplete with a part missing. At the same time I guess I'm glad that at least I can hide this deformity from the world so no one has to know unless I'm at the beach or something. For the majority of my life I can keep it from everyone as my own secret. If I was missing a hand a lot more people would notice! and when I was having problems with my contacts and had to wear glasses that distort my eyes I realized there are worse things than small breasts bc at least those I can hide. So I do get some comfort from that, thank god we live in the era of the 2 cup size bra!
strongirl
Sometimes a phrase that someone uses in here just resonates with me and I'm struck by it. Yesterday it was "wearing cleavage". Today it is "used my chest as a storage facility" for failures. Wow. That is really a profound insight, poignantly described.

Buttercups, I am also struck by the contrast between the way you see yourself (deformity???!!!) and the way your past lover described you in that recent conversation - as a "work of art". There is a vast distance between those two points of view! And I'd love to see you scootch your butt over to his side, for I'm sure it is much more in line with reality.

karategrrl
Ladies, you all rock so mightily!!

I already feel better, reading your posts. I’ve been a little down. <Warning: rant ahead.> Long story short, it just seems like everywhere I look lately everyone’s got the fucking implants, and I am so goddamn tired of it. Seriously. I joined a new gym only 5 miles away from my old one, same chain, but somehow the clientele is completely different from the old one. At my yoga studio? Zero implants. At my old gym? A few implants. At this new place? EVERYWHERE. It’s like I’m a fucking alien just for being natural. Hubby’s been at this gym a few years and been introducing me to his friends there so I have a few acquaintances when I go. His workout partner’s GF? Implants. Awhile back, he mentioned a woman I might like to be workout partners with, she’s so nice, yada yada. Met her last night. Yep, implants again. Obvious ones. (And a sing-songy voice that was like nails on a chalkboard.) Now, I KNOW, I shouldn’t judge. Maybe she had breast cancer, and the implants are a reconstructive thing, I tell myself. I dunno. But right off the bat I’m standing there making stupid small talk while thinking, “OK, probably not much chance of any meaningful girl-friendship here…totally different mindsets…I know…don’t judge…but it’s HARD. I like genuine people, and though this woman may indeed be very nice and genuine on the inside, there she is, fake boobs pointing at me, physically bridging the physical gap between us, practically waving hello. My brain practically exploded from the effort of trying to process it all.

I’m just tired of it. There is something so fucking wrong with being different because you DON’T surgically alter yourself. Makes me want to run away and live alone in a hut on a mountaintop in Tibet or something, where people <gasp>have other things on their minds. Sorry for the rant. I’m angry. (And if I did run away, I’d take my laptop so I could stay in touch with you guys. wink.gif ) But reading your posts makes me feel better already. <Rant concluded.>
Random responses to your posts:
Strongirl:
I totally know what you mean, Karategrrl, re. the aging thing - I'm not going down without a fight. For me, it has to do with my identity. I don't want to look like some 18 year old...I want to keep looking like myself. "
Strongirl, yes! I know I bitch about wrinkles, but also I must say I find it a bit intriguing to watch the new look I’m taking on. And no, I don’t’ wan to look “younger,” really. I want to look as good as I can while simultaneously looking somewhere near my real age. And buttercups, that is wonderful what you say to the oldsters you work with. I LOVE old people. And, I see some BEAUTIFUL older folks. I smile, they smile back, and they just freaking glow. Awesome.

“It reminds me of a woman I know who got implants and said she never felt really naked again, it was like she was always "wearing" something, her fake boobs. Personally, I like being able to get naked.”
I can so relate, and this is the reason why I think I’d lose my sanity if I ever got the surgery. I’d feel fake, and I wouldn’t be able to remove them myself.

Kerabear:
“One thing I appreciate about this forum is that it doesn't tolerate self criticism. The last time I tried that, karategrrl gave me a verbal smack! ha ha... I also appreciate how the members here have proven that I will only get better with age. ”
Yes, this is our happy place. laugh.gif And I must say, I AM personally coming to realize the empowerment, confidence and fun of not giving a shit, which is something you gain as you age. I’d take the insights, knowledge and confidence I’ve earned over the last 20 years over looking “younger” any day.

Nbdx:
“I also used my chest as a storage facility. I'd place my life "failures" (for a lack of a better word) on my breasts. Be gentile on yourself because it's more than just the body part, it's the feelings and experiences that we attach to that body part which makes it so difficult.”
WOW! WOW! AND wow AGAIN! You totally hit the nail on the head. Everything that plagues us is totally about the feelings, thoughts, beliefs, etc. we attach to that thing. One of my fave quotes ever is,” We see things not as they are, but as WE are.” (Anais Nin, I think.) I am finding this to be a major theme of finding happiness in life—I am finding great relief and power in changing my feelings/beliefs about something rather than changing that thing (if it’s something I can’t change). We can’t change others or, often, our circumstances—only ourselves. (And yes, I realize it's not that woman's fake breasts that bothered me--it's my own feelings about them...processing...processing...)


buttercups:
“It's like my body is incomplete with a part missing. At the same time I guess I'm glad that at least I can hide this deformity from the world so no one has to know unless I'm at the beach or something.”
Oh, I feel a virtual love-slap coming on… wink.gif
Buttercups, you are NOT deformed! Just the fact that you EXIST in your present physical form is evidence of that. I know what you mean, though. Sometimes I also wish I knew what it was like to have breasts with weight, to fill out bras. Hell, sometimes I wonder what it would be like to have a penis to play with, or what it would be like to live in a body of a different color, size, shape, etc. But remember that there are plenty of women out there who are disabled, old, or who have painfully large breasts who would give their left eyetooth to live in YOUR body. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with those bodies either—just that the grass is always greener, you know?

God, I’ve written a lot. Your fault--you all have inspired me. wink.gif

PS: Sorry for all the weird characters. I had to make a small edit and everything got wonky...Hope you can still understand my post.
strongirl
Karategrrl, that post was like a good book! It was LONG but so much good stuff in there.

Re. your rant - OMG, I so relate. Totally totally totally. To all of it, from your feeling like an alien for being natural, to not knowing how to relate to a woman whose implants are "bridging the physical gap between us" (that was so well put), to just wanting to escape from it all (maybe we can share a hut). I have felt all of those things and really appreciate the way you articulated them. <<<hugs>>>

KeraBear
Awww, thanks for the compliment, BC! You aren't so bad yourself. wink.gif Speaking of COMPLIMENTS...

QUOTE(karategrrl @ Feb 3 2011, 09:35 AM) *
So... buttercuppies...let's start turning that self-criticism around! What DO you like about yourself? Tell us!! Force yourself! There must be something! wink.gif Just one thing!! (Or two...or three...)

<More HUGS!>


I don't believe you ever answered this question. C'moooooooon! Inquiring minds want to know. smile.gif
buttercups
Karategrrl I can totally relate to that rant- 100%! I'm tired of it too and everytime I think this whole fake mindset might be fading I look around and it's still everywhere. I don't think there is any way to live in this society and escape the thought that there is something wrong with you for being "different", even if we are only different because all of a sudden everyone around us has altered themselves to look the same. I also hate how people talk about implants casually sometimes-like "oh you hate your breasts, get implants!" and it's like the health risks don't even matter or factor in at all. Even that article that someone posted a little while back about the woman with the implants that keep rupturing frustrated me to a point. She goes on and on about how she should love her small boobs and how the implants have caused her so much trouble health-wise, and then goes and gets them put in again and she's a new woman. The good thing about that article is that it really made me think. What the hell would I do if I woke up and one of my inflatable breasts was gone?? I know myself and I would totally freak! What if it happens in a time of financial difficulty and you just don't have the money to go out and buy yourself more surgery to get it repaired?? I just find it hard to stomach how some women around here are so carefree about the whole process and don't even think about it or any of the risks. And I think that the more people get surgery and look alike, the more strange and abnormal the natural people will seem. I wish I lived in a time before this crap existed so that maybe I could see a woman who looks like me for once and feel more normal about it. I know like Karategrrl said that the grass is always greener, and I am grateful for my healthy body, but how much more of an outsider am I going to feel as people augment themselves all over the place??

Hahaha KeraBear you are not lettin me get away with this one! Hmm if I had to pick something I liked about myself, it would probably be...I guess my eyes. They are huge and I used to hate that they were dark brown and think it was boring, but I'm more ok with it now cause it's easier to make "sad puppy dog" faces with brown puppy dog eyes than without haha. It's funny cause my eyes are actually one part of my body that have caused me a lot of health problems and that is what I can tolerate the best. Boobies, aside from emotional shame, have caused me little physical problems and yet I hate on them. Eyes have ended me up in the ER and ruined my vacation on a couple of occasions but I give them the ok.
secretsights88
Hey! I'd been lurking around these forums for a long while but finally decided to sign up. It's so strange, because even though it's an online forum, it doesn't feel like it. There's just an "atmosphere" here that I have never experienced reading any other forum. It really does feel as some of you say, as a safe place, really warm and body positive. It's amazing. Sometimes when I've felt bad about my body I come in here and the blues just go away.

That's what I love about this forum. It's very body positive and accepting. You know what has helped me with my insecurity? People watching. Of course sometimes I feel "Oh I wish I had her legs", or more often "Oh I wish I had her hair", but you know what, I've learned to really appreciate different types of beauty. And I think it's just human nature to focus so much on what we don't like about ourselves... but only we see it. A lot of other women have told me they think my body is fantastic, and I'm like "Really? well thank you, here I was thinking your body is fantastic".

Beauty is so diverse, so yeah, fuck the media. It's hard to ignore the messages they give sometimes, but the real world is just so much better.

Another thing that helped was that prior to breaking up with my ex, I discovered that I can orgasm by nipple stimulation! It was such a nice surprise, especially because the sensation is so different. I really, really loved it!

I think there's beauty in everything, really. It takes a bit of time sometimes to open our eyes to it, but once we do, it's really liberating. That's the vibe I get from this forum, and it's so great that such place exists.
karategrrl
>Karategrrl, that post was like a good book! It was LONG but so much good stuff in there.

Aw shucks, thanks, Strongirl! Um, I DO tend to be long-winded when I write. Sometimes I have to reel myself in.

I’m so glad you and others can relate to my rant—makes me feel saner. Not that my own feelings don’t have weight in and of themselves, but to have other women like you guys say, “Yeah, I know!” really goes a long way toward helping me feel like LESS of an alien! I so appreciate this place!!!! It helps me SO much!! Later at the gym that night (after I met the woman with the rocket-launcher implants) I was sitting on a machine just thinking about you guys and feeling less lonely, I swear.

“ I don't think there is any way to live in this society and escape the thought that there is something wrong with you for being "different", even if we are only different because all of a sudden everyone around us has altered themselves to look the same. “

Buttercups OMG, so well-said! I SO relate to all the rest of your post, too—the “normalcy” of repeated surgeries, ruptures, casual surgery, people’s blasé attitude about it. I could go on and on. If I actually had the surgery, I, too, would probably freak the fuck out if anything went wrong. More likely, actually, would be to wake up one morning and just say, “what the hell have I done to myself? I’m not 100% ME!” I have literally gotten NAUSEOUS looking at breast implant before and after pics on the internet. I think that alone tells me enough about my unsuitability for the procedure. wink.gif

“I wish I lived in a time before this crap existed so that maybe I could see a woman who looks like me for once and feel more normal about it.”


Buttercups, I was a kid in the ‘70s. The implant thing didn’t start really gaining momentum until I think the early- to mid-‘80s. I remember many women with small breasts wanting to be bigger, stuffing their bras with tissues and such, but I also vaguely remember lots of women with those polyester leotard-type tops with little boobies and great nippies. I love technology and modern living, but there’s something about that era I really miss—no computers, no phones, no fake tits. I feel ya totally.

buttercups, I LOVE brown eyes! See, mine are blue and I’m used to them. I looooove brown eyes of all shades—to me, they seem so dark, mysterious, endless…Always preferred guys with dark eyes. So there! See, whatever you have, someone loves it!

Welcome aboard, Secretsights88!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“A lot of other women have told me they think my body is fantastic, and I'm like "Really? well thank you, here I was thinking your body is fantastic".

OMG yes, I’ve had this experience many times too!

Alright, I’ve never had a nipple-stimulation orgasm. I’ve had, like, third-eye energy rushes following intense orgasms, but not the nip Os. Hmm… one day! wink.gif

karategrrl
Wait a minute...we had PHONES in the '70s. I meant "answering machines."
...Gad, I'm not THAT fucking ancient!
secretsights88
I know what you mean karategrrl, sometimes I've looked at pictures of implants just to make myself forget about that idea... because God knows I've thought about it... only to remember why I wouldn't do it...

1. Implants just don't look natural, 9/10 times. Just based on aesthetics, I wouldn't do it.
2. I'm a chicken when it comes to surgery.
3. I know implants have come a long way, but they're still risky.
4. I don't wanna be a clone.
5. Possible loss of nipple sensitivity. I know some say it increases nipple sensitivity, but still. And too sensitive nipples can't be good either.

I know they're a valid option for many women (like it was for spot-on), but not for me. Some women have no issues with implants the same way I do. And that's fine. But it's not for me, even though from time to time, I wonder what it'd be like to have big breasts. Ahem, "breasts".

In the end I just put things in perspective, and how my body is awesome the way it is, how healthy it is and well, that in itself is something to be grateful for. Sometimes I feel like such an ungrateful bitch when I worry so much about my breast size, or any other part that may bother me. But then, it's hard not to, with all the shit from the media. They have brainwashed even the best of us, them fuckers.

Oh and buttercups, I also have brown eyes. I live in a country where practically everyone does. So yeah, sometimes I feel they're a bit unspecial, but I guess that's just because I'm so used to them. Just like karategrrl said she's used to her blue eyes. Like her, I also prefer guys with dark eyes. So yeah, brown eyes are great too, I'm sure you have gorgeous brown eyes, which is cool too, because from what I hear, practically any eye shadow goes well with brown eyes. I'm not much of a make up junkie, but that's always good to know!
strongirl
secretsights88, you sound totally cool! Welcome and I'm glad you de-lurked!

"They have brainwashed even the best of us, them fuckers." biggrin.gif LMAO - excellent line and very true!

Looking at implant photos, my dominant reaction is to think how much better most of the women would look if they'd lost weight, gained muscle tone, and improved their posture as opposed to getting implants. I know that too is somewhat judgmental, but since I value strength and health and many of these women do not look strong or healthy, that is how I react.

I'm in the big brown eyes club too - and boy, have I ever found them to be an advantage in life. When I was growing up, my mother used to have to look away when she was reprimanding me - she always found it impossible to say mean things to me when she was looking into my eyes. smile.gif
KeraBear
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Feb 7 2011, 08:38 AM) *
[b]> Not that my own feelings don’t have weight in and of themselves, but to have other women like you guys say, “Yeah, I know!” really goes a long way toward helping me feel like LESS of an alien!


Yeah, I know! wink.gif

Welcome, SecretSights88! Yeah, I think for the most part this place has got it right. I've tried teen forums in the past to deal with my feelings, but I think the problem with those places are... well, there are too many teens, ha ha. As far as small breasts go, most of the time the responses are "awwww, don't worry. You are still young. You have plenty of time to grow!" (well what if they don't? And isn't that treating it like it is a problem?) OR they would try to make you feel better by saying, "Hey, be happy you don't have big boobs. They are saggy and ugly!" (but then in effort to make someone feel better, they are making other girls feel bad about themselves. That is no good either!) Teens would seriously benefit from this place, and the thoughts of people with, actual life experience...but of course then there would be way more drama, too... I know I was pretty dramatic when I first came here! LOL

About Buttercups eyes - I am also pushing the "like" button. Remember that with great power comes great responsibility! smile.gif

anarch
Brown eyes here too. I've never been wild about having them. However, they probably do help a lot for making pathetic puppy dog faces (which I use regularly to torture my spouse).

Loving reading everybody's comments on aging. Especially yours, buttercups. I have to say, I find it ironic that you champion this aging issue so well, and at the same time are so very hard on your own (what you see as a complete lack of) beauty. There's that saying about being as kind to yourself as you are to your friends...

secretsights88, thanks for contributing your excellent words.
karategrrl
Secretsight88, I’m so glad you de-lurked. My my, we’re going to have a good time. laugh.gif OMG grrl, I could have written your 5-point list myself! Holy crap, you hit the nail on the head.

“Looking at implant photos, my dominant reaction is to think how much better most of the women would look if they'd lost weight, gained muscle tone, and improved their posture as opposed to getting implants. I know that too is somewhat judgmental, but since I value strength and health and many of these women do not look strong or healthy, that is how I react.”

I have to agree, strongirl. I can say from my own personal experience that I have really modified my body by doing just that, and I really like the way I look so much more than I did 20 years ago. I work out my upper body well, and I have to say it has done so much for shaping my chest. Like, I actually have cleavage—the muscle kind. wink.gif I think many women are looking to fill out or shape their upper bodies, but don’t realize they can achieve all or much of the look they want through their own effort rather than by surgery. (And it’s comparatively low-cost, risk-free, healthy and feels great!) My point is not to sound all full of myself, but that I get so frustrated hearing women talk like their only option is surgery. Gad.
…now if I could make my lower body look as toned as my upper body…working on it… wink.gif

Buttercups, have to agree with anarch about you seeing beauty more easily in others than yourself. But I think that’s a good start. Remember, those older folks are calling you beautiful. Listen to them. <hugs.>
strongirl
It is like we are forming a circle around Buttercups, all holding up mirrors to show her as she really is, to herself.

Sorry to repeat myself but:

"Buttercups, I am also struck by the contrast between the way you see yourself (deformity???!!!) and the way your past lover described you in that recent conversation - as a "work of art". There is a vast distance between those two points of view! And I'd love to see you scootch your butt over to his side, for I'm sure it is much more in line with reality."

Think about it. Plenty of women would weep with joy to have a lover say that about them. You gave that guy a gift by sharing your body with him, a gift he deeply appreciated obviously. Now he's given you back a gift - he is holding a metaphoric mirror up to you too. The least you can do is look into it with gratitude.

Karategrrl - too bad we can't work out together. smile.gif You don't sound full of yourself and I can relate to your frustration. I think one of the reasons women think of surgery before things they can do that are under their control is that we are conditioned to become passive and disempowered - men (surgeons) have the power to change things (our bodies) but we do not - that is the mindset. Old school feminist analysis there but I think it has some validity.


buttercups
Awww thanks ladies, I wish I could actually make myself believe good things about me, I'm trying harder, but it will be awhile I think. I forgot to mention that this guy also kind of had strange taste in women, so it wasn't as flattering as it could be haha. Strongirl how did you get to be so damn strong?? Thank you for making me see things that I wouldn't normally see on my own. There is a contrast between those 2 things, I want to learn to see myself differently.

I'm also kind of upset because my bf is going away on a guys' weekend and I saw that one of his friends wrote on his other friends' facebook wall that the weekend was going to be full of "beer n' boobs". Now I don't know what to think about it and I don't want to tell him not to go, but at the same time I am extremely sensitive about things and if he goes to a strip club or something I probably won't be able to show my body to him ever again. What happens when he finally sees boobs?? I confronted him about it and he says he just won't go with an angry tone, but I don't want him to just not go at all. I'm just not secure enough to be ok with him going to things like that. Even if I know he would never cheat on me, it would hurt me just to think that maybe he is finally noticing what he's missing with me.

Wow thanks for all the brown-eyed love! One of the only memories that I have of my very crude grandfather is him telling me as a little child that my eyes were brown because I was "full of shit". Glad to hear some people find other attractive things about brown eyes hahah!

Karategrrl, any tips on how to get some of that muscle cleavage?? I'll take any cleavage I can get and I'm willing to work for it! Can you really make yourself fill out that much more? Great stuff about the 70s- anyone got a time machine??

Anarch I am definitely anything but kind to myself, and I want to fix that and first fix the feeling I have that I deserve to feel bad about myself for whatever reason. Do you ever wonder if deep down inside you are a bad person? I wonder that about myself sometimes and think maybe I just deserve to not like myself. I want to be a better person to everyone in my life, and maybe then I'll feel better about myself.

Thanks for joining us SecretSights88, I can tell already that you have so much positivity to offer! We can never get enough of that!

KeraBear
QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 8 2011, 11:35 AM) *
It is like we are forming a circle around Buttercups, all holding up mirrors to show her as she really is, to herself.

What a beautiful image...

Buttercups... oh dear, I can totally relate! This so reminds me of when I came running into the lounge in tears after discovering porn on mf BFs computer... I guess perhaps I will tell you the same thing that I was told. You can use this an opportunity to have a frank and open discussion with him about the subject. Also, I could be wrong, but I sorta doubt that this will be the moment that he "finally sees boobs". He's probably seen some before, somehow, someway whether in a prior relationship or at the very least in porn. I guess my point is that despite this, he chooses to be with YOU, beautiful you. You can't overlook that! Sorry... that's all I've got. I'm not the best at giving advice around here.
discowombat
QUOTE(KeraBear @ Feb 8 2011, 07:29 PM) *
doubt that this will be the moment that he "finally sees boobs". He's probably seen some before, somehow, someway whether in a prior relationship or at the very least in porn. I guess my point is that despite this, he chooses to be with YOU, beautiful you. You can't overlook that! Sorry... that's all I've got. I'm not the best at giving advice around here.


Actually Kera, that's great advice... or at least I think so since you practically read my mind, lol.
secretsights88
It can be hard to deal with something like that. I've never liked the idea of committed guys going to strip clubs or seeing strippers, even if they have small boobs... maybe I'm a prude or something, but if you're in a committed relationship, well, I feel you should enjoy your partner's body and only that. Porn I can accept, sorta, I don't like it either, but ro me strippers are on another level... even if the man doesn't get a lap dance and only watches the girls on stage, well, they're still there. I would never do that, especially because male strippers give me the creeps, I think they're so gross, and I'd hate to have a guy I don't know give me a lap dance and put his penis on my face. Lol, if I ever get married I SO don't want that for my bachelorette party...

But men are different, le sigh... But I agree with Kera, he has probably seen boobs already, and yes, he chooses to be with you. What I've tried thinking about when I've felt insecure like that in a relationship, is this: when I'm in love, the guy I'm in love with is the most perfect, beautiful man in the world to me. Really, I'm not kidding, I've felt like that, and that not even some TV hunk can compare... literally, I've been with a guy I love, looked at him, and have seen NO flaws at all, just beauty and perfection. And that's love. Because other people who weren't in love with him, saw imperfections in him, but to me that just didn't exist.

Now, in those situations, I focused on how I felt about that guy, how beautiful he was to me, and how much I loved him, how that made me feel warm, fuzzy and happy. I let all the feelings I had for him, physical and emotional flow through me. And then, when I was feeling that, I projected that towards me. Because if I felt that way about him, then he probably felt the same way about me.

My ex had been with girls with bigger boobs, yes. This made me feel insecure. But then there's so much more to a woman. There's so much more to beauty than breasts or any single body part. And you know what? Some other ex of his, the one who had broken his heart, and who I felt more insecure about, was even smaller than me, bust wise... she must be in the AAA - AA range. And she's freakin' GORGEOUS! I think she's way prettier than me, and I've a bit more up top. But does that matter? No, because the girl doesn't need big boobs to be gorgeous and she has no shortage of men.

But my ex thought I was prettier. He also had seen strippers (before being with me), and he said it was nothing special or arousing. He also told me that as men mature (at least that was his case it seems), men actually get tired and bored of the stripper/porn star look. Of course not all men are like this, but a lot are. And I can see why they get tired. They literally look all the same. They look generic, they may look "hot", but not beautiful because beauty is unique, not generic.

Buttercups, I also think that maybe you've been surrounded by too much negativity from a young age. I'm no shrink, at all, but from what I've read, it sounds as though people in your life have not been supportive. So it's pretty understandable why you'd doubt your looks so much. It's unfortunate, because receiving negativity from a young age can be pretty hard to "fix" when we're older. But at least you know it's not that you're unattractive, it's actually that people have been rude and well, that leaves emotional scars.

I feel that everyone here is gorgeous, including you. We all have our unique beauty. We're all femenine... I don't buy into the "real women have curves" thing at all. Sure, curves are beautiful and femenine, but they're not exclusively femenine. There are so many different types of femininity, of beauty, which have nothing to do with proportions or curves or whatnot. I've rarely seen women or girls who don't look femenine, and it mostly has to do with their attitude, than how they look. In most cases, they choose to look unfemenine.

I got inspired, lol. Anyway, the point is, talk to him about it. Make an agreement. He probably wants to go not to see boobs, but to be with his friends. And just 'cause his friends are dumb and go like "yay, beer and boobs" doesn't mean he has the same mentality. So take heart! But talk to him, and tell him how you feel, listen to how he feels. I'm sure it'll be good.
buttercups
Awww Kera, you do give great advice! Thank you, you are just one smart cookie! I remember that whole thing with your bf and the porn, that was really tough and you were able to overcome it. As every woman in the universe has bigger boobs than me I know that he sees bigger boobs every day of his life and still comes back to me for whatever reason. I guess I should stop trying to figure out why and just focus on the fact that he does.

Secretsights88, thank you so much I'm really glad you decided to speak up in here because you have so many wonderful things to say. It's interesting what your ex said about the stripper/porn look, I wish it would get old everywhere and fast haha! And I so agree with everything you said about the "real women have curves" and other such bs. It bothers me that people don't realize that all that is doing is making another group of women feel bad about themselves. I hate all this backlash against being a size 0 and everything because that just makes all the naturally smaller girls feel bad about themselves. It shouldn't be about banning one size or another, for whatever reason we can just never come to accept all sizes. I have been hit hard by the "real women have curves" campaign because as we all know I have no curves whatsoever and felt excluded because of it. I never said anything bad about curvy women and always envied them, so I didn't understand why I was feeling attacked from them. I think we need a new saying to describe "real women" that includes everyone. Maybe we could all get better at seeing our unique beauty if it became more acceptable to do so.

Secretsights88, you also hit the nail on the head with all of the negativity that I've experienced in my life around how I look. Other people have really brought me down and have found it all right to make rude comments about my body without blinking an eye. I think I've mentioned before that I have yet to have a friend who hasn't said something about my size in a negative way. I try to compliment all my friends and make them feel good about themselves, but a lot of times people just focus on how small I am, etc. The negativity is hard to erase and just when you think you've escaped it here comes another asshole opening their mouth with another uncalled for comment. I think I've become obsessed with having what I believe to be the "perfect body" and I will never have it because it rejects everything that I am. To me, my idea of a perfect body is someone who is tall, with an hour glass figure and well-defined waist, long straight hair, a perfect pretty face. It's pretty much everything that I'm not but what I think people expect me to be. I'm not sure how to fix these things, it is just so ingrained in my head. I want the confidence that you all have and I want to stop torturing my bf with my insecurities. I almost want him to go to a strip club with his friends so that I can find a way to manage my anxiety about it without feeling the need to throw myself over a bridge. I want to prove that I can get over the jealousy and fear of being inadequate. But what if I can't and it just ends up making things worse. Sometimes I think it would be better to be single and not worry about what a guy thinks of my body. Just be by myself and not have to expose myself to anyone or worry about being good enough. Did anyone else experience a lot of negativity growing up or was I more of a target for some reason?
nbdx0645
I rarely listen to pop radio, but I was sent this link of Pink's single and I found it relevant to our current discussion. Her lyrics are far better than anything I could say on the subject: P!NK :: Perfect (Also, as a heads-up, there's a self-harm scene in the video.)

Buttercups, surrender to the fact that you are beautiful and you are worthy.
_Vendetta
h
_Vendetta
Hei there

I don't know if some of you remember me, I used to post in here until about two years ago.
At that time, I decided one day to pursue a deep change in my life.
I went single, moved in to 10 minutes away from the beach, went healthy (healthy trying), got fit on Pilates - I opened my mind.
I was a happy workaholic.
I stopped posting here.
I tossed away my padded bras forever.

Almost 27 years old, two years after a huge and positive change in my life, I decided I was gonna put an end to the leech that kept eating me inside and made an appointment for surgery for the 18th February. I was still uncertain about it but certainly scared to death from it.

Twenty-one days before my appointment, my dad dies.

A day after an apparently simple surgery, a stroke hit him and he deceived - just like that.
I had left the hospital about an hour ago, with the medical information that he would come back to me in a day or two, when me and my brother started receiving confusing phone calls about him.

Our dad - our hero. The super dad that raised two mom-orphaned teenagers on his own, when we lost her at the age of 14/15.
Our super cool, clever, cult, humorous, special sweet dad.
He was gonna move in to countryside with his now grieving widow, comfortably retired from a respected journalism career, to make his dream come true: write books and take photographs.
The sweetest and brightest mind I've ever met.

I am so devastated I don't even have the strength to go down. I am numb.

Two weeks after the second worst day of my life, I was about to cancel my appointment when I realised I thought different.
I had no doubts I wanted to do it.

I learned the hardest way how ephemeral life is. I strongly feel that I have to live mine to its fullest.
I want to be focused on the important aspects of my life - my work, my art, my friends, my fragile family - not my body.
I'll take the risks as I can deal with the consequences.

My mom and dad will take care of me.


I was sitting here at my desk, on my own for the first time since, and obviously needed to rant.

I'll leave you with one of the most beautiful songs ever written:

Sia - Breathe Me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSH7fblcGWM



Cheers



anarch
Vendetta, I remember you and am happy to see your username again! I'm sorry to hear about your dad. He sounds like an awesome dad.
I'm glad you came to a decision that was right for you. I had wondered how things were with you.

QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 8 2011, 03:01 PM) *
Anarch I am definitely anything but kind to myself, and I want to fix that and first fix the feeling I have that I deserve to feel bad about myself for whatever reason. Do you ever wonder if deep down inside you are a bad person? I wonder that about myself sometimes and think maybe I just deserve to not like myself. I want to be a better person to everyone in my life, and maybe then I'll feel better about myself.


I used to wonder if I was a bad person for having certain thoughts and desires and doing certain things. For years, I didn't like myself. I thought I was ugly and not smart enough. I was embarrassed to be me.

What changed? Right after high school, my sister recommended that I take a personal growth course. The main thing about it was, it forced me to practice trying out "I like myself" and "I deserve to be happy" and "I deserve to feel pretty" and "I deserve to be treated with respect" and "I am powerful" and "These are my good qualities [itemized, one by one]" and "These are my beauty spots [itemized]" and "I AM SEXY!" -- first in my head, and then saying these things out loud. Saying them out loud repeatedly, to somebody in the course that I was partnered up with. Corny, and probably it wouldn't work for everybody, but it forced a crack into my self-hatred. It forced me to admit that another way to think about myself existed, even though I felt stupid saying this stuff and I didn't think I'd ever really believe it. After the course ended, I kept on saying a lot of these things to myself, just to practice, even though it still felt stupid for a long time. I kept at it because the possibility of genuinely feeling powerful and sexy, and being treated like it, it felt like a promise that was a hell of a lot better than the self-destructive things I had been used to saying and thinking about myself.

Part of the process required surrounding myself with people who supported this change. And, just as important, either cutting out of my life the people who didn't, or minimizing my contact with them, or protecting my boundaries from their bullshit thoughtlessly or intentionally hurtful judgments.

I think you've had to deal with a lot more of that shit than I ever did, and you get it from your family too as well as your bf's asshole buddies. Feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my ass here, but I don't think you need to be a better person to them. The sense of you I get from your comments here is that you are already considerate, thoughtful, you try to treat people well and if occasionally you don't, well you try to make up for it. That's a good person. One who deserves to feel loveable, confident and sexy and to have people around her who tell her so.

What about being a better person to yourself?
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