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karategrrl
Strongirl, see you at the gym later. wink.gif And really astute observation about feeling in control! Interesting. I DO find it VERY notable that like 99.999999999999% of the breast augmentation surgeons out there are male.

any tips on how to get some of that muscle cleavage?? I'll take any cleavage I can get and I'm willing to work for it! Can you really make yourself fill out that much more…”
Buttercups, you can’t increase your breast tissue through working out, but you CAN increase and define the pecs, which in turn give nice shape to the chest. Also, workingout your arms and shoulders, and upper back are all great for defining, strengthening and building the upper body. (Looks great, and really useful for lifting groceries and fighting osteoporosis:)

I won’t write a book here, but what works for me are three exercises: 1) chest press (for building the size of the pecs 2) pec squeezes (where you squeeze in-defines pecs) and (this is there the cleavage really gets defined) 3) standing cable flyes. see this link.You can google any of these and find machine or maybe free weight versions. Don’t know if you belong to a gym. Oh, and you want to do 3 sets, with high enough weight (this is where many women wimp out and therefore don’t see results.) On set one, the weight should be where you can between 10 and 12 reps; set two: 8-10, and set three: around 6-8 (or even like 5). I wrote all this here in case anyone else was interested, but PLEASE feel free to “personal message” me if you need more info. GLAD to give it! In another life I’ll be a personal trainer. Strongirl, feel free to chime in. Don’t want to overwhelm buttercups, but I may have missed something that may help her. (?)

also, I agree with secretsight that you have a right to feel how you feel about your guy’s weekend away. I am not a prude either, secretsight, but I don’t think that’s any place for a committed man to be. And also I do feel that these clubs are ripe for women’s being subjugated and objectified. Women’s opinions on this all are over the board, but these are my personal opinions. If it bugs YOU, you have the right to be bugged. Also remember, guys do all that male bonding “beer and boobs” crap and blow a lot of hot air out their assholes with each other. They think it’s cool and masculine. I’m not saying that that it’s okay for his friend to act like a caveman but know that they just will. It's not acceptable, but don’t let it shock or hurt you. (PS: how would your BF feel if you spoke of going out with some of your GFs while he’s gone—to a male strip club—or out by yourself to a club? You might find he has a double standard about it.)

And yes, I'm sure he already knows what all sorts of breasts look like. A quality man will be concerned with what's attached to it. If he chose you then he recognizes a quality woman. wink.gif

vendetta, I remember you. Surprised you're back. I’m unclear—did you have the breast augmentation surgery? You said you were sure you wanted to do it, then later in your post said you wanted to focus on other things besides your body.
_Vendetta
I haven't had surgery yet, the first consultation in on next week.

I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.
I just wonder how it would be like to have breasts. And decided to finally go for it.
secretsights88
QUOTE(_Vendetta @ Feb 10 2011, 02:47 PM) *
I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.



I think that since we have been talking about implants lately, this is very relevant to the topic. I don't think I'd get implants, but I think what Vendetta posted here is key for any woman considering implants. And I think many women who undergo breast augmentation are not in the same position to say "I love myself completely". Many hate themselves and thus get implants.

It's great that you love yourself completely Vendetta.

I think self acceptance and self love is really important when undergoing surgery.
KeraBear
Thanks, BC. I guess since I am one of the youngest here, I sometimes fool myself into thinking I have nothing to give. The porn thing was difficult, yeah, but I have never been faced with the strip club question. That is a whole new level! Let us know what happens...

QUOTE(_Vendetta @ Feb 10 2011, 12:47 PM) *
I haven't had surgery yet, the first consultation in on next week.

I don't have any kind of hate towards myself or my body or anything.
I am a rather balanced person who loves herself and her own life. There's nothing wrong with me.
I just wonder how it would be like to have breasts. And decided to finally go for it.


I guess I am still confused. You say you love yourself the way you are, but yet... I dunno, the act of breast augmentation seems to contradict that. You are doing this out if curiosity? What if you find you do not like it? Then it would be an expensive mistake. Sorry, I am not trying to sound critical. Just trying to understand. Btw, so sorry to hear about your dad. That has to be so hard!
_Vendetta
Opting for any kind of elective surgery when you are not well resolved within is half way for a bad emotional result.

Though I would love to have bigger breasts, I don't HATE my AA's. I just feel sad when I see all that beautiful lingerie I can't wear or when I look at myself in the mirror with certain clothes and feel pathetic. I feel mad at myself when I stare at some girl's cleavage, which happens a lot. And I do it cause, well, I don't have them.
But I don't have feelings of inadequacy, embarrassment or anything.
I'm okay in a bikini, naked or braless.
I just know I would feel like a million bucks if I had them.
strongirl
Vendetta, I remember you too and I'm glad to know you are well, or mostly well. My heartfelt condolences about your dad and sympathy to you during your grieving. He sounds like a wonderful man and you were so lucky to have him as a dad. The song you shared was beautiful, thanks for sharing.

Also best of luck to you with your surgery - wishing you a quick recovery and complete satisfaction with your results. It's not for me, but that doesn't mean I can't hope for a good outcome for someone else, as with Spot-on.

Karategrrl, excellent advice on the exercises, I would totally concur. Without going to a gym, though, it's surprising how much you can gain with plain old pushups. The first time I ever experienced "muscle cleavage" was from doing 20 pushups a day at home. When I saw a photo of myself in a low cut top with that characteristic shadow in the middle, I was like "Whoa! Where did that come from?" smile.gif I wasn't doing the pushups for cleavage, I was doing them for strength, and didn't even realize I'd get that "side effect".

On the strip club thing, I can understand your anxiety, Buttercups, but unless you want it to, I doubt it poses any kind of serious threat to your relationship. Big boobs are everywhere - your boyfriend (and all of us) are inundated with big boob "marketing" on a daily basis. He still chooses you. There are tons of issues around the sex industry, strip clubs, and porn and your discomfort is totally understandable. But you're not gonna resolve all those issues with him, or even in your own head (unless you're way ahead of me...and I've tried pretty hard). What about saying to him "I don't want to come between you and your friends but I don't want this weekend to come between you and me, either. Here's what I need to feel more comfortable:" Then list 2 or 3 things that would make you feel better. For me, that would be to get filled in on what it was like, in detail - knowlege always lessens my anxiety. Also maybe sex with me first thing upon his return. And a commitment not to have sex with someone else during the weekend - no "hall pass" (anyone else hate the commercials for that movie?). I dunno if any of this is helpful or relevent to you, but thought I'd throw it out there.

There was a poster in here who used to work as a stripper but now I forget who that was. At one point, she contributed some awesome material on what it was like, including the fact that being small-breasted was not really a detriment in her work. If she's still around, now might be a good time for her to chime in.

On your sweet question of how did I get to be so strong...wow, tough question, and believe me, I have my weaknesses and struggles. But if I had to choose one helpful thing, I'd say the influences of other strong women - from my mom and grandmothers and aunts, to feminists whose work I've read (Gloria Steinem, Betty Dodson, Jill Johnston, Susan Brownmiller), to friends I made while working on the rape crisis hotline, to long dead icons (Ada Lovelace, Joan of Arc, Louisa May Alcott). I copycat. I see women I admire and I try to be like them. That's how.

karategrrl
QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 11 2011, 06:26 PM) *
Karategrrl, excellent advice on the exercises, I would totally concur. Without going to a gym, though, it's surprising how much you can gain with plain old pushups.

Yeah, pushups!!! I forgot about those!! I also just realized that maybe some of those cable pec exercises could also be done at home with those elastic workout bands (tied firmly to something very strong, of course). You might have to just do one arm inwards, then the other, not both together like with the cables. <looking into crystal ball> ...Buttercups, I see muscle cleavage in your future... wink.gif

QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 11 2011, 06:26 PM) *
What about saying to him "I don't want to come between you and your friends but I don't want this weekend to come between you and me, either.


Wow, that was good. Seriously. Have to remmber that.
QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 11 2011, 06:26 PM) *
There was a poster in here who used to work as a stripper but now I forget who that was. At one point, she contributed some awesome material on what it was like, including the fact that being small-breasted was not really a detriment in her work. If she's still around, now might be a good time for her to chime in.

I still have her posts--I saved them, they were so enlightening! But I forget her screen name!
_Vendetta
hello strongirl, I remember you too. Thanks a lot for your understanding, this forum has been the only place were I am able to share an issue like this one and it means a lot to me to be understood and supported - even if the rest of the girls don't feel the same will to solve the "problem" like I do.

It has been a real personal hell to be making this decision.

KeraBear
Vendetta - Ahhh... okay, thanks for helping me understand. I just wanted to make sure that you have really thought things through with the decision. I am in the same line of thought as Strongirl. Surgery is not for me, and I am not pro-implants by any means, but that doesn't mean that I wish you the best. Good luck!
KeraBear
Hello?

*crickets chirping*

Awwww we had such a sweet positive vibe going on in here, what happened?!?
auralpoison
To each their own, implants or no implants, but I'd like to emphasize what Vendetta said:

QUOTE(_Vendetta @ Feb 11 2011, 09:46 AM) *
Opting for any kind of elective surgery when you are not well resolved within is half way for a bad emotional result.


There's breaking news in the Sheyla Hershey situation. It's heartbreaking that this poor woman tried to change what was broken inside by changing something on the outside. Especially when she went all the way to Brazil for the surgery because 1) implants that size are not kosher in the US & 2) because no doctor in their right mind would do it for her here.

This is one of the reasons I was so very pleased that SpotOn was down with sharing her story with Busties. She was honest, straightforward, & not even a little bit insane. She was in a healthy place emotionally/physically/spiritually & made a very well-informed decision as far as what she wanted for herself, much in the same way many of ya'll have decided that surgery is not for you.

I wish that Sheyla had been as lucky as we all are here in the Lounge & that she had some sane support & caring people to talk to before all this crazy shit went down. Because she's probably going to die.
karategrrl
Quote from the Sheyla Hershey article:
After her first attempt, she said: "Once I reclaim my identity as the World's Biggest Boobs I can be a better role model for my daughter.
What????!!??
What a shame! Those ridiculous knockers detract from her beauty--or at least she looks pretty here.
discowombat
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Feb 15 2011, 06:06 PM) *
Quote from the Sheyla Hershey article:
After her first attempt, she said: "Once I reclaim my identity as the World's Biggest Boobs I can be a better role model for my daughter.
What????!!??


Those were my thoughts as well. I also find it interesting that she doesn't say "my identity as the women with the world's largest boobs"... she's just "the world's largest boobs". It seems like a pretty good indicator of her mental state on the topic sad.gif
karategrrl
QUOTE(discowombat @ Feb 16 2011, 02:01 AM) *
Those were my thoughts as well. I also find it interesting that she doesn't say "my identity as the women with the world's largest boobs"... she's just "the world's largest boobs". It seems like a pretty good indicator of her mental state on the topic sad.gif

Ha, good point!

But it just goes to show that if any one of us identifies too closely with any of our external "stuff," it can be bad. If one is centered in themself (and I mean "centered," and not the negatively used "self-centered") it's a better place to be.

I think we all identify to some extent with our external self, even breasts. I mean, for any woman who loses one or both of her breasts to cancer, it can be very difficult, to say the least. But for this woman to feel that without those grossly exaggerated, fake things, she doesn't feel right...uh...Houston, we have a problem. wink.gif
KeraBear
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Feb 15 2011, 04:50 PM) *
I wish that Sheyla had been as lucky as we all are here in the Lounge & that she had some sane support & caring people to talk to before all this crazy shit went down. Because she's probably going to die.


This story makes me sad. sad.gif Yeah, it is too bad that she didn't have a place like this. I don't understand her rationale for being a role model for her daughter. It seems like the opposite message would be appropriate - that you shouldn't let anyone define you by the size of your boobs! Plus I would just die of embarrassment if she were my mom.
strongirl
What strikes me about this woman's story is that her personal mental illness is a creepy mirror held up to our larger cultural mental illness regarding women's bodies and their purpose. Sad.
karategrrl
Great points, Kerabear and strongirl. I once saw a woman in the grocery store with breasts (implants) almost this big (I swear!). She had her little boy in tow--maybe about 10 yrs old--and I couldn't help but wonder how this kid could NOT get unmercifully teased or be embarrassed.
secretsights88
I agree with all of you that this is sad. What kind of role model can you be, especially for a daughter? I think it's a symptom of how society can screw up our ideas of what is beautiful and desirable.

It's true that as women we tend to identify with our bodies, but this shows that if society as a whole placed more value on the inside, then maybe women like Sheyla wouldn't get so mentally skewed to end up doing that to themselves, and thinking that their whole worth comes from that. I mean, even putting your worth as a mother on something like having giant overfilled implants? That's insane.

There's a difference between going for a "standard" increase (don't know how else to put it), like Spot on and Vendetta and many other women, and then having such a skewed vision of who you are, that you decide that your worth comes from your breasts and nothing else, and that the bigger the better. I feel really sad, because this shows that some common notions in our society can be really harmful to some people's minds.

I also read one of the similar articles they had about women in the UK going for implants more and more, and I think that also reflects society's impact on body image. Sure, sure, they do it for themselves, but I think that the media has at least some form of indirect impact on it... I don't know much about the media in the UK, but I don know they have a lot of publications featuring "glamour" models with massive breasts, and that they're practically celebrities over there, so it's all really acceptable and fun. I guess they're used to it now? But it does send the message that the bigger the better, I think, which is not the best message they could send.

Now I'm just writing nonsense... it's good to be back though after being away for a few days smile.gif
strongirl
It made perfect sense to me, Secretsights.

On a lighter note, here's a bit of Friday afternoon fun for y'all. Compare and contrast these two youtube clips - wouldn't you rather be Juliette Lewis than Kim Kardashian?

(Note: I don't mean this to bash Kim personally and definitely not to bash by extension other large breasted women. But since some smallies have previously posted in here that their "ideal" is the tall, hourglass, big-breasted, curvy etc etc body type - yes, you, Buttercups - I wanted to provide a fun counterpoint to give ya an opportunity to say for once "Hey, I'd rather be the small-breasted punker chick ruling the crowd than the curvy ideal looking awkward and getting kicked off stage!")

Turn on your sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tOJYNwmPt0...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40sbDbcA9aM




secretsights88
Now that we're talking about body types and celebs, I think Sandra Oh is really hot. Some magazines and people have called her ugly, but I just don't see it. She has a great body and kind of small boobs, and when I've watched Grey's Anatomy, yeah, I think she's looked hot (she's had a couple scenes wearing lingerie). I think the concept of "entire package" applies here... she just looks great as she is... she'd look so strange if she had bigger breasts. I don't know, she's one of those girl crushes I have. I guess because her looks are different and unique.

And I wish I had her hair, lol.

And yeah, I'd much rather be Juliette Lewis, I also love her style and think small breasts go better with that. She's stunning. Much more refreshing than Kim K (she's too made up for my taste... too high maintenance, I mean all the make up, the clothes, the hair, everything). Although I admit I watch the Kardashians show sometimes, it's a guilty pleasure, they're funny in a "am I grateful that I don't have such a crazy family!" kinda way...

Anyway... Juliette Lewis... she's a great example that it's not neccesary to have curves to be soooo very sexy too...

Speaking of other hot smallies with rocking attitude, another of my girl crushes is PJ Harvey... I also know many guys who think the same way, even though she's not exactly curvy, and still they think she's both beautiful and sexy... and of course much more talented than any of them, lol.
KeraBear
Check out this blog from a woman struggling wirh the idea of implants...

http://www.hollyjean.sg/2009/08/my-boobs-and-i.html

secretsights88
QUOTE(KeraBear @ Feb 21 2011, 10:56 AM) *
Check out this blog from a woman struggling wirh the idea of implants...

http://www.hollyjean.sg/2009/08/my-boobs-and-i.html


I can relate to a lot of what she's saying. In high school I had most of those concerns, I still do every now and then. It's funny how even very pretty women like her, who are models, can be made to feel ugly by stupid, mean spirited comments.

What really struck me was this:
QUOTE
And it doesn't help that magazine images and the media keep presenting supermodels with augmented breasts as the standard of beauty.
.
In fact, I get quite pissed off whenever I read that some anorexic looking model gets pulled out of a fashion show, or a pageant queen gets criticised for being too skinny. They say she's a bad role model for young girls.
.
And yet it's perfectly fine to have models and beauty queens with silicone implants? In fact, the ones with the fake breasts land Victoria Secret fashion shows, sports illustrated swimsuit covers and the Crown to the pageant. How's that promoting a healthy body image???


This is SO true. I'm not into promoting the whole "anorexic" look, but there are many women who are indeed naturally skinny, but not anorexic. A lot of the time, the anti-anorexia talk hurts these naturally skinny women too, because there's a war on skinny, period. I'm not skinny myself, but I can see why it bothers them.

And I think it is indeed hypocritical of society and the fashion industry to demonize being skinny in favor of being curvy, when their definition of curvy is fake. There's nothign wrong with promoting all sorts of beauty, be them skinny or curvy, but I think she has a really valid point when she mentions that being skinny is seen as promoting bad body image, but having implants is not. Of course implants are a personal choice, but sometimes they're even seen as something empowering...

Good read.
strongirl
Wow. Hugely great insight there. Thanks, Kera, for sharing and Secretsights, for insightful commentary.

I think I've failed to see this issue clearly because I've squelched myself and said to myself "oh, it's just sour grapes, you're just pissed because you're skinny and now you need to shut up and give the big girls their time in the limelight". So I never made the connection of "being skinny is seen as promoting bad body image, but having implants is not." That is huge for me. Thank you for the virtual "smack upside the head".

There is a "war on skinny" now and thanks for phrasing it so succinctly, Secretsights. But it's no different than the "war on fat" that reigned when I was growing up. In both cases, the underlying assumption is that we as women are not good enough, we're ugly, we're inadequate. And that we need outside intervention and "experts" - plastic surgeons, diet doctors, diet pills, undergarments that either pad us or shrink us - to help us stop giving offense to any whose eyes fall upon us.

And of course, there's money to be made off of that process.

I'm tired of women's bodies being the goldmine for greed and the battlefield for war and politics (Congo, Egypt spring to mind as recent examples, as well as the current debates here in the US over breastfeeding and also abortion). I wanna shout "Leave us the fuck alone!"
karategrrl
Wow, great article! And thanks for the hads up about Juliette Lewis. I had no idea she'd gotten so hot! New girl crush... And our bodies are so similar, it makes me feel great to see her rocking her bad self.
strongirl
My bf has a HUGE crush on Juliette Lewis, so if you're built like her you better stay away from him, Miss Hot Karategrrl, or you'll have me to speak with. smile.gif

It's funny - I look a lot like the chick in the blog below but a tad more muscled and a tad less Asian. But anyone seeing us together would think we're sisters.
karategrrl
QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 22 2011, 06:31 PM) *
My bf has a HUGE crush on Juliette Lewis, so if you're built like her you better stay away from him, Miss Hot Karategrrl, or you'll have me to speak with. smile.gif

It's funny - I look a lot like the chick in the blog below but a tad more muscled and a tad less Asian. But anyone seeing us together would think we're sisters.

LOL!!! Well, if you look even remotely like the girl pictured in the article, you are yourself a force to contend with!!! laugh.gif
karategrrl
PS: In that article, that pic of the guy pulling on the girl's shirt creeps me out. He looks pervy and she looks like she's being molested against her will. Ew, ew, eeeewwww.
buttercups
Ahh so much has gone on in here in the few days that I've been away- I love it! First and foremost- strongirl if you resemble the girl in the blog photo and karategrrl if you resemble juliette lewis well HOT DAMN! You ladies are smokin!!!

It was pretty sweet to see juliette lewis totally rockin it- thanks for posting strongirl!! And I'm working on my muscle cleavage every day- I can do 3 push-ups right now hahaha, pathetic but I will get there!

All in all I've been sorta not lovin the way that I look lately, but I think a lot of it has to do with my insecurity about my bf going away on his man-trip and potentially being exposed to lots of boobage without me being there. My chest is just so very very veryy small, and I keep thinking that I'll feel better about my whole body the more that I work out and try to tone up, but it hasn't entirely happened yet. I'd love to wow my bf by becoming all hot and buff, but that will take time of course and even though I've only been lifting weights for about 2 months I just don't see much progress.

One thing I did love about that blog was what she said about skinny women. I happen to be one of the naturally scrawny types (skinny but not necessarily as in-shape as I'd like to be) and I've always felt so bad about my body because of the attack on skinny and the "real women have curves" movement. I've never put down curvy women, so I didn't understand why they were putting me down. Frankly, though I'm glad that the runways are embracing other body types, it hurts me to see things about how size 0 is gross and models that are a size 0 look like boys and whatnot. I'm not advocating for everyone to be a size 0 because I know that is ridiculous and everyone should be their natural size, but that is my natural size and it hurts me to constantly read things about how size 0 shouldn't be allowed and women that size look like boyish hangers and not women. There shouldn't be any size requirement to be a model- whether you're a size 0 or a size 1000! And it's also so true what she said about how the media classifies "curvy". "Curvy" = women my size + ginormous breast implants. That is not promoting a healthy body image for curvy or skinny women! Now THAT is what is unnatural, not being small or large. I know I just repeated what everyone else has said, but this is something that makes me so angry so I had to do my own personal rant. I wish people would actually accept all forms of beauty instead of just talking about it and then photoshopping everyone.

KeraBear
QUOTE(karategrrl @ Feb 22 2011, 03:10 PM) *
PS: In that article, that pic of the guy pulling on the girl's shirt creeps me out. He looks pervy and she looks like she's being molested against her will. Ew, ew, eeeewwww.


OMG I know! He looks like such a creeper! I thought it was an interesting choice of photo to go with the article... i mean it seemed so out of place.

Hmm... I was thinking what celebrity am I similar body type to? Dakota Fanning, I guess...?
KeraBear
QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 22 2011, 06:35 PM) *
One thing I did love about that blog was what she said about skinny women. I happen to be one of the naturally scrawny types (skinny but not necessarily as in-shape as I'd like to be) and I've always felt so bad about my body because of the attack on skinny and the "real women have curves" movement. I've never put down curvy women, so I didn't understand why they were putting me down.


Yeah, I am sort of the same way... I guess I can understand the reason for the "Real Woman Have Curves" movement, because there is so much pressure to be skinny, which is unfortunate. But it ultimately puts down a whole nother part of the woman population and that is way not cool.

Funny story... when I was a freshman, a friend of mine told me that if I put on weight than I would get some boobs, so I tried to pig out on junk food whenever I could. It didn't work. In fact, I ended up getting sick!!!
karategrrl
QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 22 2011, 11:35 PM) *
And I'm working on my muscle cleavage every day- I can do 3 push-ups right now hahaha, pathetic but I will get there!

Way to go buttercups! Soon we will have to change your name to hottiecups, musclecups, firmcups or something. (I do like buttercups, though. wink.gif)

QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 22 2011, 11:35 PM) *
I'd love to wow my bf by becoming all hot and buff, but that will take time of course and even though I've only been lifting weights for about 2 months I just don't see much progress.

Dont' forget--it's not just about you being good enough for him, it's about HIM being good enough for YOU, baby. There's my mini-lecture. Dont' forget it. wink.gif And I'm wondering why you haven't been seeing the results you want...are you lifting enough weight? Are you eating enough protein? Hard to tell via our virtual connection. I wish I knew what to tell ya. Of course, I hope it's not that you look awesome already but you just can't see it. I bet you look HOTTTT!

QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 22 2011, 11:35 PM) *
There shouldn't be any size requirement to be a model- whether you're a size 0 or a size 1000! And it's also so true what she said about how the media classifies "curvy". "Curvy" = women my size + ginormous breast implants. That is not promoting a healthy body image for curvy or skinny women! Now THAT is what is unnatural, not being small or large. I know I just repeated what everyone else has said, but this is something that makes me so angry so I had to do my own personal rant. I wish people would actually accept all forms of beauty instead of just talking about it and then photoshopping everyone.

I totally agree on this all, but I do have to differ a bit with the modeling thing. When we think of models, we usually are referring to fashion models. Yes, there are height requirements (5'8'' for women, at least in the USA). If you are a "fit" model (that is, they use your body as a "manikin" to fit the sample of the clothing on when they are designing it) then yes, you have to be a certain size. But "commercial" models (the "real-people" folks you see a lot of in print magazine ads, TV commercials, etc.) have no size requirements. And I know...I did a short stint as a model in New York. At 5'6'' I could not do fashion, but I did commercial print. And I can tell you that I saw all types, colors and sizes on the auditions I'd go on. It truly had nothing to do with how thin or "pretty" you were--it was about if you had the look the client felt best spoke to their target audience. (One male model I knew totally worked the "nerd" look and did lots of ads for computer/tech companies.) So while it's true that you don't usually see a large, "curvy" woman strutting down the high-fashion runway, the modeling world, as a whole, is actually more diverse than most of us know. It's just that the Victoria's Secret-sized models get the most sexual attention in popluar media, I think. You don't hear much about the "mom" types in the chocolate-chip cookie ads, though they may land as many jobs as the swimsuit types. wink.gif
buttercups
Awww thanks Karategrrl- between you and Spot-on and Strongirl I feel like I have my own team of personal trainers. I should probably take this into the working out thread, but its about muscle cleavage- so I'm still assuming it's relevant haha! Truth be told I don't eat a lot of protein, I eat a lot of fruits and veggies (mostly carrots and broccoli, not legumes or beans) and I'm not too crazy about meats. The best source of protein I get is probably from Greek yogurt- which I eat daily. Any other suggestions?

Also, I started lifting about 2-3 lb weights 2 months ago. I've increased this to 5 lbs and I can do some exercises with 10, but not quite all of them from my work-out dvds with 10 yet. I think what I really need is 7-8 lbs weights right now because 5 has become too easy and 10 is sometimes too much. I do have the start of some muscle mass on my arms, but no where near what I would call definition- which is what I'm really looking for here. I guess I have to remember that I'm pretty much starting with nothing, since I've only been used to running and never lifted weights before. But again, any suggestions would be most appreciated!

That's really interesting too what you said about the models, there are a lot of models that don't need to fit any strict criteria that I forget about. I guess I was more referring to the Victoria's Secret type. Personally seeing all those hot babes in VS makes me NOT want to buy their products because I realize that I will never look like that in any of their clothes (not that I can fit in their bras to save my life anyways). If they included different types of women, I'd probably want to buy their underwear more cause I would think that it can look good on more types of people, so why not me? I don't know about you guys but it doesn't make me want to buy lingerie more when I'm trying it on while looking at the ad of the practically naked model busting out of the top with hip bones jutting out of the bottom and a seductive smoky-eyed look on her face. I just makes me say "i give up". They should get a clue!
karategrrl
QUOTE(buttercups @ Feb 23 2011, 06:41 PM) *
I don't know about you guys but it doesn't make me want to buy lingerie more when I'm trying it on while looking at the ad of the practically naked model busting out of the top with hip bones jutting out of the bottom and a seductive smoky-eyed look on her face. I just makes me say "i give up". They should get a clue!

I get ya. I know some women like looking through the catalog, but I don't. It discourages me. I used to get it (warning--if you order anything from them, they then bombard you with their damn catalogs). I actually requested to be removed from their list b/c I was tired of getting USED catalogs that discouraged me. (*USED: With creased pages, fingerprints, possible DNA--I suspect from postal workers. Ew and no thank you.)

There was one model in VS who was very small-chested. I tore out a couple of her pics and still have them. but her pics were like one or two out of the whole catalog.)

Please feel free to email me privately if you want some workout/nutrition advice. I am not a trainer (though I think strongirl is??) but hubby and I have both been into the fitness/muscle thing for years and we're friendly with lots of trainers too, so though I'm not a "professional" I'm open to offering advice.

Oh, a couple of really good books I like are Sculpting Her Body Perfect by Brad Schoenfeld and The Truth by Frank Sepe (though the latter is more technical). You might also checkout the "Dummies" books for more info on nutrition and exercise. One thing I like is that all of these include photos of real-looking, normally fit people, not just bodybuilders and "enhanced" fitness models.

Good luck!!!!!!! I really admire your dedication to your health and body. You know we'll all support you here!
strongirl
Hey there, Buttercups and Karategrrl - no, I'm not a personal trainer, that was Spot-on. But I am a lifelong athlete and nutrition-nut. Buttercups, I suspect you are not getting enough protein. You need to try to figure out what you're getting daily, in grams - general guidelines are 40-46 grams for an adult female weighing 110 lbs.

I had been a runner and mostly vegetarian for many years when I started lifting weights several years ago. I wasn't putting on muscle either and felt some pain with lifting - as if my connective tissues and ligaments weren't building up. I figured out I was getting maybe 20 grams of protein on a good day, not enough to build back what I was tearing down. I increased my intake by drinking a protein smoothie within a half hour of working out, when the body really needs the protein to start rebuilding the muscle tissue. I made my own smoothies with 30 grams of soy protein powder and tons of antioxidants via blueberries, orange juice, green tea, etc. Huge difference! Soreness gone, muscles built up, the muscles amped up my metabolic rate so the fat melted off. Plus my skin and hair looked better. Added benefit to soy protein - it may have some estrogen boosting effects for the bustline.

My take. I'm not a pro, tho, and this doesn't qualify as medical advice by any means.
karategrrl
Great advice, strongirl! I forgot about the protein supplements!

I, too, take one, within an hour of a weight workout. My hubby started me on this and I was skeptical, but it does make a difference. Plus it's a great thing to drink first thing in the morning as a morning shake--when you have that protein intake on an empty stomach, it apparently absorbs quickly.

I like this one ON protein. All the flavors taste really good. One scoop of that plus a little milk in a shaker bottle does it. To get fancy, I add a banana and put it in the blender, which makes a nice healthful, filling snack anytime. Large continer runs about $40 US but lasts a long time. You can find a nutrition or bodybuilding store and explain what you need--the peeps who own them typically seem to be pretty knowledgeable, at least in my experince.

Plus I'm big on women getting enough protein to fight osteoporosis and all that nasty stuff. wink.gif
anarch
I've been away, but oh what a treat to come back here and read all your contributions. This community rocks.

secretsights, thanks for posting that blog essay. More people need to read it. It, and y'all's wise comments here, too.
buttercups
Ooo thanks ladies for all the great protein advice! I have a nutrition supplement type store near me, so I'll check that out for some protein powder. If 40-46 g is about what I should be getting, I am nowhere near that! Hopefully I'll see some improvement if I up the protein.

Welcome back anarch! Missed you!!
secretsights88
Oh hey anarch, I'm also glad that you're back! Although it was Kera who posted the link to the blog, but I agree it was a really good read...

Oh and GO BUTTERCUPS! smile.gif I'm sure that you'll do great with your training, it takes a bit of patience, but the results will be worth it...

I also found this, and I really felt identified with that post... I've thought or felt a lot of what is written there... it kind of helped me reinforce the perspective that we need to find beauty in our uniqueness and just fuck societal expectations...

Operation Beautiful - Dear Society
KeraBear
QUOTE(secretsights88 @ Feb 26 2011, 11:56 AM) *
Oh hey anarch, I'm also glad that you're back! Although it was Kera who posted the link to the blog, but I agree it was a really good read...

Oh and GO BUTTERCUPS! smile.gif I'm sure that you'll do great with your training, it takes a bit of patience, but the results will be worth it...

I also found this, and I really felt identified with that post... I've thought or felt a lot of what is written there... it kind of helped me reinforce the perspective that we need to find beauty in our uniqueness and just fuck societal expectations...

Operation Beautiful - Dear Society


Great essay! *Kerabear clicks like button* Did you read about the mission of Operation Beautiful? That is so seriously cool.

And go Hottiecups! smile.gif
anarch
oops, thanks for the correction, secretsights. Kera, thanks for linking to that blog!

"Operation Beautiful," what a wonderful idea.

All those VS models busting out of their cups bugs me too, actually. Only, I got some of my favourite tops and sweaters from there, so I keep checking back.

Oooooh Hottiecups! That nickname sure suits what we know of you, buttercups. Would you mind being called Hottiecups every once in a while? (KeraBear, I love your mind.)
discowombat
QUOTE(anarch @ Feb 26 2011, 08:39 PM) *
All those VS models busting out of their cups bugs me too


I agree. The photos they use just show ill fitting bras.
discowombat
Actually, let me rephrase. While the photos don't actually show flesh bulging out the sides or over the top and all the other things that logically would come with having the girls pushed up that high, I realize that those unpleasantries have likely been photoshopped out. If the bras looked uncomfortable they wouldn't sell, and we all know that anything fashion related is generally photoshopped to hell and back.

The other thing that irks me is that they try to sell you something whether it fits or not. "Sorry we don't carry your band size, but try on this one is already loose on the tightest hook. It'll be fine"... anyways that's what the usual sales spiel sounds like to me. If their sales ethic works like that I hardly trust that the photos in the magazine aren't doctored to conceal the fact that their models are probably wearing bras a couple sizes too small to get that look. I'm sure there's some creative cleavage shading involved as well.
discowombat
http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php...y-Victoria.html A detailed analysis shows that they pretty much photoshopped everything on this one.
anarch
Awesome, discowombat. Thanks for the comments and link. I had seen that photoshop breakdown before but I'd forgotten.
karategrrl
QUOTE(discowombat @ Feb 27 2011, 03:23 AM) *
I agree. The photos they use just show ill fitting bras.

True. This annoys me--the "my cups runneth over" thing is exactly what they tell you NOT to do when correctly fitting a bra, for it creates bumps and ridges under your top. But I guess that's OK when you're not wearing a top. wink.gif
Eris_Sweetleaf
QUOTE(strongirl @ Feb 22 2011, 09:38 AM) *
Wow. Hugely great insight there. Thanks, Kera, for sharing and Secretsights, for insightful commentary.

I think I've failed to see this issue clearly because I've squelched myself and said to myself "oh, it's just sour grapes, you're just pissed because you're skinny and now you need to shut up and give the big girls their time in the limelight". So I never made the connection of "being skinny is seen as promoting bad body image, but having implants is not." That is huge for me. Thank you for the virtual "smack upside the head".

There is a "war on skinny" now and thanks for phrasing it so succinctly, Secretsights. But it's no different than the "war on fat" that reigned when I was growing up. In both cases, the underlying assumption is that we as women are not good enough, we're ugly, we're inadequate. And that we need outside intervention and "experts" - plastic surgeons, diet doctors, diet pills, undergarments that either pad us or shrink us - to help us stop giving offense to any whose eyes fall upon us.

And of course, there's money to be made off of that process.

I'm tired of women's bodies being the goldmine for greed and the battlefield for war and politics (Congo, Egypt spring to mind as recent examples, as well as the current debates here in the US over breastfeeding and also abortion). I wanna shout "Leave us the fuck alone!"


I've also had my mind on something like this as well because its apparently the 'in' or ;right' thing do which is one of the biggest reasons I dislike hypocritical 'movements' like this. Don't get me wrong; anorexia is a muffed up thing to try as is any eating disorder but from my years I have realized that there are two types of women;

1) The ones that realize that each person on this earth goes through their own kind of sh** and its not fair nor is it right to try to challenge them to see who 'has to go through the most suffrage'

and then there is camp...

2) The women who are just plain VAIN and want to make themselves feel better by putting others down for NO REASON other than they look like those that attack them.

Urgh, this crap drives me mad. As a black woman the 'real women have curves' mantra is all over the place because apparently there is a standard of what black woman should look like. There is a lot of mind-boggeling logic behind all this thinking but to put it in topic for this forum, let's just say that to some folks, a skinny, small-chested black woman is apparently not natural. You guys remember Monique? She made her career of her 'skinny bitches are evil' jokes so you can imagine how I hold her in my opinion as far as entertainers, hell, even ROLE MODELS go.

It makes me sad that a lot of women don't seem to grasp the concept that empowerment doesn't mean attacking people who have done nothing to you. You aren't helping anyone who ACTUALLY HAS ANOREXIA by belittling a slim woman who doesn't have it but whatever; they are apparently just in their saying because they 'suffered', never mind the fact that when a woman who isn't 'curvy' tries to talk about being bullied because of her own size, she is always told that she is making it up, it never happens or she should be 'thankful that she's skinny'

How does this help anyone? It DOESN'T and if anything, these 'wars on' aren't empowering women but rather keeping them from coming together because we are told that one side is the enemy to the other when its just not true. I mean, really. Its like some people feel threatened by those that haven't done anything to them. A skinny woman on the street, especially if there is nothing wrong with you, isn't going to cause all little girls to hunch over the toilets as much as a large woman isn't disgusting.

Its vanity. Nothing but vanity. dry.gif
strongirl
I totally agree, Eris Sweetleaf. And you raise a very good point about the underlying motivations when people put other people down over body shape/size - it's just competitive "one-upping", trying to elevate their status by putting other people down.

Your point about two types of women can really be expanded to people in general and comes down to whether one wishes to view others with compassion and support versus competition and vain self-promotion. There are those who wish to lift up and those who wish to tear down.

"It makes me sad that a lot of women don't seem to grasp the concept that empowerment doesn't mean attacking people who have done nothing to you."

I couldn't agree more.

And I do think there are racial issues that come into play with body type. I once worked in an office with a really gorgeous tall, thin, smalll-breasted young woman who was the only African-American woman in the office, with (other than me) mostly overweight, older white women. She took some serious shit in the form of "back-handed compliments" - things like "Eat a cheeseburger!" "Oh, I didn't see you, you were turned sideways"...just out of the blue. She handled it gracefully but it really used to piss me off. She had the last laugh, though - she quit when she got a job as a runway model. smile.gif

karategrrl
QUOTE(strongirl @ Mar 2 2011, 02:37 PM) *
She had the last laugh, though - she quit when she got a job as a runway model. smile.gif

OH! That is just TOO fucking GREAT!
I, too, have been on the receiving end of that shit, though I must say, it wasn't as blatant.

"to help us stop giving offense to any whose eyes fall upon us."
Wow, that was well-said!

And welcome, Eris Sweetleaf!! Haven't seen you here before, or maybe I missed something--which is totally plausible! Great insights!!
karategrrl
I have to say, it seems like what a lot of us are recognizing is that it's great to accept and love oneself however you look, but another thing to go a big step further and say that your way it the only way to be, and everyone else is wrong to be the way they are.
DeeRayy
Hello smile.gif

I'm a new member of this sooo I guess I'll simply state why I'm here.

I have always struggled with insecurity about my body as a whole, but my greatest struggle has been with the size of my breasts (I'm an A-cup). I was mildly teased in high school about my size (entirely by girls and gay men), and had never even had a boyfriend until my senior year of high school. Ironically, it was my first boyfriend that did the most damage to my body image. The relationship was almost a year ago, but the comments he made about my body still affect me.

It started with a simple comment he made while we were making out. I'll try not to be too detailed, but he was kissing my neck and about to head lower when he looked up at me and said "I have such a boob fetish". I was just really confused by the comment and the only thing I could think of to say was "Well, then why are you here with me??" He just laughed and said because it's not ALL about a girl's boobs. I said that the comment bothered me because I've always been self-conscious about not having boobs and he just said, "well, you have enough" and continued to kiss me.

This made me feel a little better, and he would never hesitate to tell me when he though I looked gorgeous or to comfort me about my other insecurities. For example, I'm not extremely overweight or anything, but I do have a pudgy tummy and he knew it bothered me, but he would always make an effort to caress and kiss my stomach. However, when it came to my boobs his affection was inconsistent.

He even asked me what my cup size was on the phone once. I didn't want to tell him but he kept insisting. So, I finally said that I was an A-cup and all he could say was "oh....", and changed the subject. And all he could ever say about my breasts was that they were "sufficient" or "enough". It felt like a backhanded compliment, like I was the bare minimum. And he never once made an effort to tell me that he liked them or to pay extra attention to them in bed, even though he knew they were my biggest insecurity.

It finally reached a boiling point when one day I finally just asked him if he could change anything about me what would it be, and sure enough he said, "well, you know how I said I was a boob man? Well there you go." All I could do was cry that night, and I ended up feeling worse and worse about my body. I felt ashamed and inadequate. And he just started to get impatient with me, and rather than comforting me he just kept telling me to let it go and that he was with me because of other things. I guess he just didn't understand how sensitive the issue was for me.

So, out relationship ended a few weeks after that. To make things worse, it turns out he had left me to pursue another girl who was much bustier than I, and we never talked again. But honestly, I don't think he was just leaving me simply to be with some girl with a bigger rack. I mean I'm sure her boobs didn't hurt, but I feel like my insecurity made it too hard to be with me, and that it was my own fault that he left me for her.

So, I'm still left with some emotional scars and I'm just tired of hating the way I look, and feeling as though I'll never be enough for a guy. I'm in my first year of college and I haven't dated anyone since. I'm a commuter student so I don't have as strong of a social life as a dormer, but I'm moving into a campus owned apartment next year that's much more affordable so hopefully that'll help. but anyway, I guess I'm just looking for some words of advice and some opinions on the situation that I went through. Any insight would help. Thank you smile.gif
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