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karategrrl
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karategrrl
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karategrrl
Well, my original post got lost somehwere in cyberspace, but I wanted to say that though I won't promote any body type as "hotter" than another, Beck, I have to agree that smaller busts do tend to lend a more streamlined look to the body overall. I have read compaints from our large-busted sistahs about how it's hard for them NOT to look provocative, how men tend to talk to their chests, and how when they try to hide the large breasts with flowy tops, the overall effect tends to add the appearance of pounds.

I trained in the martial arts for many years (as you may have guessed) and took my share of (unintentional)elbows to the breasts and such. Ouch!! At times like that, I was glad to only have what I have! The streamlined look works on me. smile.gif
karategrrl
Sorry, gals, for the duplicate posts from me...computer server issues??????
beck
you're right karategrrl, hottness comes in all shapes and sizes, i just felt sad when i read the posts on here. i don't normally post on this thread as i've always been ok with my breast size, as far as i've given it any thought at all. to be honest, it never occurred to me that girls or boys might find me less attractive because they are not large.

boo to stupid media stereotypes selling fake images of fake women, i say. and to the men who are silly enough to think that those images are in any way grounded in reality.

ETA: I just hate to see the assumption of ‘large breasts good, small breasts bad’. I would compare it more to hair or eye colour – there isn’t one ‘good’ kind and a bunch of inferior ones.
karategrrl
QUOTE(beck @ Apr 7 2008, 03:58 PM) *
ETA: I just hate to see the assumption of ‘large breasts good, small breasts bad’. I would compare it more to hair or eye colour – there isn’t one ‘good’ kind and a bunch of inferior ones.


So true, so true. There are, of course, plenty of people who don't share our highly advanced thinking. wink.gif

I have blue eyes but I've always loved brown eyes--so deep, dark and mysterious. Well, people with brown eyes envy mine. I love straight hair--it's classy looking and takes to bob cuts so well. Well, as you might guess, everyone with stright hair wishes they had my curly hair. The grass is always greener, huh? We humans are funny...
Vendetta
It's just a pain in the ass when the breasts are TOO small that just disappear under clothes or with shoulders back... then what the hell, small boobs can be sexy but what about almost un-existant ones?? I cannot find my boobs sexy when the most of the time my belly is bigger than them.. argh!
karategrrl
QUOTE(Vendetta @ Apr 9 2008, 11:38 PM) *
It's just a pain in the ass when the breasts are TOO small that just disappear under clothes or with shoulders back... then what the hell, small boobs can be sexy but what about almost un-existant ones?? I cannot find my boobs sexy when the most of the time my belly is bigger than them.. argh!


Hey Ms. V (for Vendetta),

Sounds like you need a BIG ((HUG))! You are SEXY, bebe!!!!
crinoline
*jumps in for (((GROUP HUG!)))*

V- No matter the size of the boob, I'm sure you have nips, and nips are always sexy! Yay for being sexy women with small (but still perfect!) boobies!
edie52
*joins group hug*

Vendetta, I remember reading your posts about how confident and sexy you used to feel, and that was really inspiring. I think it's possible for you to feel that way again. Don't beat yourself up if you can't get back to it right away, but don't forget about it either. It's in you somewhere!
karategrrl
Hope you're doing better, V. We all have our bad days, myself included.

What support! You ladies just seriously freaking ROCK!!!
knorl05
i'm sayin!

is true boobies dont make the woman. we just gotta redirect our attention to other aspects of ourselves that make us attractive individuals. if in fact that's what we want. wink.gif
konphusion26
Agreeing with Crinoline - nipples-are-awesome! lol all sizes!
Vendetta
Thank you ladies.. you have been just what I need. And yes, it is possible for me to feel the way I felt before... It has to be in me somewhere...
karategrrl
Okay, ladies, I have to share...

I saw an acquantance of mine the other night. I hadn't seen her in several months. Well...she got boobie implants. Now, before we all get ballistic, let me say that this poor woman--who is only in her mid-40s did so as part of a breast reconstruction following breast cancer--she's had a few breast biopsies, chemo (and hair loss, over a year ago) and a total hysterectomy. The biopsies left her breasts dimpled, so I think she was trying to fill them out. She's been through so much I'm sure it was like, "Fuck it! I'm getting implants!" I must say, she didn't go nuts with the size. They do look natural. But...

The left one is higher. She said she's waiting for it to "fall," like it should." If it doesn't, the doctor wil have to *operate*--again--to put it where it needs to be. Hasn't this woman been through enough? Was I right, or what--implants aren't a one-shot, done deal. <<shudder>>

PS: Ditto on the NIPPLES!!!! Love 'em. Even boy nips. wink.gif
knorl05
karategrrl: right. reconstructive surgery post-mastectomy is an entirely different situation than cosmetic procedures, imo. my aunt went thru the same thing, it is very saddening to see. she was stripped of so much, it was a nice option to be able to at least get a memory back of who she used to be.

breast implants are supposed to fall, but there are quite a few cases in which women have to return to the operating table to fix whatever mishap resulted from the surgery. i have honestly heard/seen more horror stories or complications from the procedure than not. sad.gif
beck
oops felt so strongly i posted twice smile.gif
beck
i agree too, post-mastectomy seems to be more about getting back what you've lost, like a wig after chemo. whereas cosmetic surgery - i know we're all third wave and all in here, but having major surgery to modify healthy tissue in the absence of any medical indication seems kinda self-hating.

when i was a teenager i used to ponder the idea of surgery, i would never do it now as my breasts are just not that important a part of my identity. they don't even register on my radar - i want to be known for being smart, on top of my game in my chosen profession (might need to cut down on BUSTing for that), a good friend, in the near future to be a good mother...Chesticles don't even come into it, as long as they work for the purpose they're designed for (that would be feeding babies, not impressing neanderthals), i'm happy.

Not to mention the fact that people tend to look a whole lot worse after having surgery - i actually thought Ashlee Simpson was kind of cute before the nose job, now she's just yet another generic hollywood fembot. in fact, can anyone name a single famous person who looks better post-surgery (excluding gastric bypasses perhaps) than before?

the biggest scary horror story for me is the stuff i've read about women breastfeeding and their babies being poisoned by faulty implants. Just horrible.

OK rant over
dj-bizmonkey
hugs to all you ladies out there! i've been out of the loop, entertaining my mom, her best friend and her daughter who is my age. on that note, it was at least mildly vindicating to go shopping with her. she's very well-endowed and probably three or four times i heard her cry from the dressing room, 'my boobs are too big for this!' it's nice to know that while we may not have mastered the sweater, we can get away with loads more types of clothing.

i agree with everyone else here, i think getting reconstructive surgery after a masectomy is completely different than just getting implants. no one (unless they are trans) elects to have their breasts removed. it isn't a choice to have breast cancer. it is a choice to, as beck put it, mess with already health tissue. the fact is, no matter the size or the shape, they are a symbol of femininity and losing that is devastating. i do understand what karategrrl is saying however as in, 'hasn't she been through enough?' well, maybe after all the chemo and biopsies (sp?) have breast augmentation feels like small potatoes.

speaking of breast cancer, i was putting together a lecture on breastfeeding for my class last week and i came across this ad campaign. i thought it was pretty amazing:

www.print.duncans.tv/2006/obsessed-with-breasts/

Vendetta
I don't disagree with cosmetic breast augmentation if that's a "patient's" will. But I have to say that when I see normal women with normal sized breasts going under surgery, it disgusts me. I agree with breast augmentation in cases of hypomasty for example. If something like not having breasts mixes up with a woman-'s self-esteem, and we all know it does and we all know the importance breasts have to women, why not?
karategrrl
Yep, DJ, she did feel like it was small potatoes. Case in point: I said, "OMG, wasn't the recovery from the impants, like, the worst thing ever?" (that's what I've read/heard.) She said, "Well, it was nothing compared to this (pointing to where uterus used to be)." 'Nuff said.

"i agree too, post-mastectomy seems to be more about getting back what you've lost, like a wig after chemo. whereas cosmetic surgery - i know we're all third wave and all in here, but having major surgery to modify healthy tissue in the absence of any medical indication seems kinda self-hating."

Ditto! I can understand implants in my friend's case, or if one breast is grossly undersized compared to the other, for example (in which case, one could also opt to get the larger one made smaller, heh heh...) BUT I've seen waaay too many "before" pics of beautiful, knock-dead gorgeous breasts I've give my left eyeteeth for, made inflated by freaking implants. Makes me want to get violent!

"Chesticles don't even come into it..."

Chesticles! HAAA! LOVE IT! laugh.gif

" i actually thought Ashlee Simpson was kind of cute before the nose job, now she's just yet another generic hollywood fembot. "

Me too!!!! I loved her old nose. I actually find unusual or interesting-looking people much more attractive than "perfect"-looking people. (Husband says he is lucky for that, ha.)

"the biggest scary horror story for me is the stuff i've read about women breastfeeding and their babies being poisoned by faulty implants. Just horrible."

Oh crap, I had not heard about that! Not to mention it's more difficult to get accurate mammograms (according to my friend, who is a mammographer).

newo_ikkin
mammograms on breast implants... main reason I do not want to specialize in that area: if a woman has implants we have to pull the nipple out while pushing the implant back to get as much natural tissue in there as possible. Learned that in the first or second week of my program and have not been interested in mammography since!

I've heard of women who get large tattoos to cover their mastectomy scars. As much as I would be excited for a reason to get reconstructive augmentation, I think I'd be more likely to turn my chest into a little work of art. Breast cancer runs in my family so I've thought about that from time to time.
Vendetta
Exactly... I've seen way too much drop-dead gorgeous "before" breasts and that makes me want to get violent too. I can understand why an AA cup wants to go for a B Cup like I do but I just don't get it when B cups are going for D's... argh that's society's pressure happening.
karategrrl
"if a woman has implants we have to pull the nipple out while pushing the implant back to get as much natural tissue in there as possible. "

Oh. My. Gawd. Right there is enough reason for me NOT to get them. I imagine you are an radiographer. I was once an x-ray tech aide. I loved when women would come in for chest x-rays and lie about having implants. We could see them clear as day, along with IUDs, "secret" piercings...there were no secrets! rolleyes.gif

"I've heard of women who get large tattoos to cover their mastectomy scars. As much as I would be excited for a reason to get reconstructive augmentation, I think I'd be more likely to turn my chest into a little work of art. Breast cancer runs in my family so I've thought about that from time to time."

Wow, what a creative and positive alternative. You are such a strong woman!
newo_ikkin
Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)
karategrrl
QUOTE(newo_ikkin @ Apr 16 2008, 08:59 PM) *
Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)


I believe all things go through a 3-step process to be realized:
1) Thought
2) Thoughts become words
3) Words become action

See, you're already well on your way! wink.gif
edie52
Lou Doillon (she is Jane Birkin's daughter and Charlotte Gainsbourg's half-sister)

Ok, I know it ain't revolutionary for a thin, French model to be showing off her small ta-tas, but I love that she was on the cover of French Playboy. Most of the comments were really positive (though I didn't read past the 1st page). I saw another pic, though, where the comment section was totally split between "yay small boobies!" and people who were making fun of her or just baffled. Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong. She's 25, has a kid, and if you look at the full-body shot it's clear that she has some hips, bum, waist, and pubes (in addition to her breasts which are small but not pre-pubescent). She's naturally thin, just look at her mom and sister! Men who want to have sex with us are not pedophiles! It's just a slightly different kind of femininity. She still looks very feminine to me.

I googled more pics of her and found a few (ads for Lee) where her boobs look waaaay bigger. But I didn't investigate further.

karategrrl
QUOTE(edie52 @ Apr 18 2008, 11:10 AM) *
Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong.


<sigh.> Sometimes I long for the '70s, when I was a kid. No one ever heard of implants then. Sure, many women still longed for larger breasts, but overall, variety in breast size must have been waaay more appreciated than it is now.

Yes, edie, it is VERY disturbing (or at least we ladies here think so) that "fake" is the new "normal." And we are living at a time when we are here to witness it. I mean, when did this breast implant shit really start hitting the mainstream--the early '80s? We are witnessing the first generation of people who grew up with this "option" and we are seeing its effect on their now-warped perceptions. So. Fucking. Sad.

Love the Lou Dillo photos. I'd never heard of her. I think I just realized it's not porn itself that bothers me as much as porn that promotes false, idealized bodies as okay, acceptable, and even preferable.
karategrrl
Hey ladies, check this out!!!! There ARE some non-neanderthal men out there!!!!
ohmy.gif
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...13060838AAAr9t6

And click here and scroll down for the woman whose friend DIED after implant ruptured during a plane flight! Egads!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...17072546AAL8bva
dj-bizmonkey
yeah, there were a couple on there that actually had some insight. but for me, bashing implants is not the same as recognizing the beauty and femininity of small breasts.

p.s. did you guys see any of the comments on the playboy link that edie posted? (thanks for that by the way, she is smokin' hot) there was one that said, 'i love her breasts, as wierd as that sounds.'

why should that sound weird? i think that some men get pressured into saying they love big boobs by what i call, fraternal idiocy. it's the same mob mentality we might get in a big group of women who all start bashing themselves. even though you might feel secure, you feel like you have to say something negative about the way you look just to fit in with the group. my bf says he gets around guys like that all the time. he just shakes his head and says the same thing, 'big boobs are overrated.' the typical reaction he gets from them is, 'great! more for me.'

as strong as i think i am or may be perceived, i've been having a rough time with this issue lately. i feel like it flares up ever now and again. maybe it's because i just did a lecture in my sex and repro class on breastfeeding. i ended up reading a bunch of articles on the evolution of breasts, since we are the only mammals to have this orb-like mammaries. other primates get swollen breasts when they are lactating, but nothing compared to what we see in the range of humans. one author, who irked me, tried to say that breasts evolved because we were bipedal and changed our sexual position from rear entry to the 'missionary position' and breasts were selected for because of the visual sexual cue they gave in that position. this argument is flawed for a couple reasons. first off, there is no 'normal' position or even universal position to human heterosexual intercourse. if he had taken five minutes to look up the origin of the word 'missionary position' he would see that it derives its name from the missionaries who came to the new world and were appalled that the native americans did it doggie-style, up on all fours, on their sides, flat on her stomach and also woman on top. and if breasts, specifically large breasts, were driven by sexual selection then why would any women like you or i or the majority of the women in thailand even exist? we would have been selected out at least by 30,000 years ago along with occipital buns and hefty brow ridges.

i know i'm ranting, but i want to continue. the one hypothesis i came across that was actually compelling stated that breasts evolved their shape in humans to aid the infant in suckling. because humans, unlike our primate relatives, lack a large, forward projecting chin. our relatively flat faces (which is especially apparent at infancy before the influence of testosterone on cranio-facial features) would make suckling on an entirely flat chest (like a chimps e.g.) quite difficult because the infants nostrils would be pushed up against the skin, inhibiting breathing. it doesn't take an enormous orb to provide the proper angle to allow an infant to suckle and breath at the same time, just a slight increase in the angle.

i thought you ladies might find that interesting. and while there is NO link between breast size and the ability to breastfeed (except for in the rare case of hypomastia where vital tissue and duct systems are missing) there is a difference in our storage capacity. solution: small breasted women have to breastfeed more frequently than large breasted women. simple as that. and in our ancestral environment, with babies in slings across our chests with constant access to the breast, this wouldn't really be an issue, now would it? so you can shove your 'big breasts are selected for over small breasts' up your ass!

oh, i feel so VINDICATED!
edie52
Yes, very interesting indeed, dj. Good for you for deconstructing that flawed argument!

Yeah, some of those comments bugged me too. I was psyched that lots of people were simply saying "wow, beautiful" or "i have a new crush," but it's actually the negative comments have been echoing in my head all day. Especially since some were also saying that her face was unattractive- one woman said she "didn't get" the attraction to skinny girls with no boobs and horse faces and big teeth or something like that- which pretty much describes me too- I'm no Lou, but the same type I guess. And like with any person or type- some will find it attractive, others not so much. I know this kind of shit happens all over tv and the internet with all different kinds of people but it stings more when you share some qualities with that person. I dislike fat-bashing a lot too but it doesn't hit me on a gut level- I can read something, be disgusted, and then forget about it. It's also ridiculous how I feel sooo validated when I see someone like her, and then fret over people's responses to her. I wish I could just feel okay in my skin.

I also hate how women are so often seen as various parts and not a whole- "oh, this part is okay, but that one is too big/small/ugly." The worst part is that we see ourselves that way, as well. It must be so hard to be a woman in the media. I can see how some people become so affected by the shitstorm of negative, disgusting things people say about them, all from behind their computers.
karategrrl
DJ, not much to say, except you just seriously rock! Rant here anytime!!!!!! and it's great that your beau has the balls to stand out in a crowd and defend his views. There may be others who feel the same way in the group but don't have the nerve to say so.

Oh, and I hope it doesn't seem like I was implant-bashing. When I read about the ways they can cause physical problems, the breast implant phenomenon just baffles me, that's all.

I am SO all for hearing appreciation of beautiful small breasts as well as seeing pictures of same!
dj-bizmonkey
oh i wasn't referring to you implant bashing karategrrl, i was more talking about some of the comments people put up on yahoo and on the french playboy thread. no worries!

also, edie, i feel you honey, it's probably why i got so up at arms when i read that stupid sexual selection theory of breasts (the missionary position guy). i doubt i would have felt so enraged if iwas toting around a pair of DD's. in fact, if i was, i might be thinking, why the hell was this selected for, it isn't very comfortable! it's the same for me though, i feel better about mysef when people talk about how hot j-lo is because we have a very similar body type. and she doesn't have huge boobs either, i mean, they are definitely bigger than mine (prob a big b or a small c), but they aren't like scarlett j or jayne mansfield. i know what you are saying about being reduced down to a single body part. it's very frustrating. i find myself even deconstructing the women around me. we all want to be seen as a whole, not just a whole body, but a whole person (mind and soul included). even though it's kind of cheesy, the 007b website has a good paragraph about this. all we're asking is that breasts be just like necks, or stomachs, or legs, or lips,or eyes, or any other part of the body that we find beautiful as opposed to this obsession, fixation, fetishism, ya know?

and i could look at pictures of beautiful small-breasted women all day long.

women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

edit: i think threads like this treat both! i love you ladies!!
crinoline
QUOTE
women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

- you do seriously rock, dj. How true is that!?!

edie- thanks for the link, it is truly astonishing, the difference between that spread and the typical American bunny. She is gorgeous.
karategrrl
Returning us to our regularly scheduled breast discussion...


"women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place?"

I couldn't have said it better myself. We shouldn't be "fixing" breasts, we should be fixing attitudes.
knorl05
so i was feeling all good about my body after looking at those photos of Lou Doillon, because i have a very similar body to hers; in fact that's pretty much what my boobs look like on a good day. and then i scroll down and read: "anais_vert 2008-03-16 01:34 am UTC Her figure isn't all that great...something about it is strange. Her boobs don't look too great either" WOW. i really think the main difference between the appreciation of erotic art and porn, is that individuals find a naked body esthetically appealing, regardless of it's irregularities, with the former. it's like erotic art is a feast for the eyes, while speaking to the mind/body/soul, and porn only serves the specific purpose to get a person off. bah.

so yeah i really share your sentiments edie. and of course dj biz. and all my other lovely busties who know what its like.

edit-i think this would be the healthier response for me: they are entitled to their opinions and i must not take it personally because they are not speaking specifically of me only someone with whom i can relate. if i were to pose naked, it'd be important to remember that there may be adverse reactions to my form, but considering i chose to put myself in that situation, i'd have to be ok with it. cant really change their minds.. ideally we could open them, educate them, but there is no guarantee they would or could be influenced by anything other than the establishments of which created them. ok. now i feel better.

artistic nude blogspot
Vendetta
That artistic nude blogspot is actually great for wannabe photographers like me lol thanks
karategrrl
It was a real ego-booster to see some bodies and boobies like mine in that artistic nude blogspot!

Yeah, about Lou Doillon's Playboy pictorial--the issue of her body being appealing can be an issue of personal preference, but I think if people think it's "weird," it's maybe more an issue of expectations--I don't know if her photos are typical of what's in French Playboy, but they're at least very a-typical of what's in most porn mags, at least in the U.S. So if someone picks up that mag expecting to ogle massive knockers, they're going to be disappointed. However, if they are more open to artsy nudes, they might like it.

She doesn't do much for me personally (on an arousal level), but I do think she has a very interesting look, and that I do appreciate. More than that, I am totally blown away to see something artsy like this--with a small-breasted woman, no less--in a mainstream magazine. Maybe there is hope yet!
beck
i really get the impression from this thread that there is more pressure in the US than there is here as far as having larger/surgically enhanced breasts (not that there isn't here, just maybe a little less so). perhaps the solution is to never read womens' magazines (or US playboy)?

as for that anais vert comment, the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.
crinoline
QUOTE
the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.

-The thing that really, really drives me crazy is that the majority of men seem to think that they can pass judgment on any woman's body at any time. (super overgeneralization, but whatever) Like, a group of guys will stand on a street corner and "rate" the women that walk by from 1-10 (and you know exactly the guys I'm talking about). The idea that all women are subject to constant scrutiny and grading of their appearance makes me nauseous. Just because we have breasts (no matter how small, lol) does NOT mean that we are here for men's judgment and approval. Just think how offended men would be if women judged their appearance in such an arrogant, dismissive way, all the time. ugh. /end rant

and it does seem that the US may have more unrealistic standards/expectations than the rest of the world.
dj-bizmonkey
so true, beck! i think anyone that puts themselves out there like that must have nerves of steel (or be terribly insecure, i think it varies and depends on the medium).

we ARE obsessed here in the USA, men and women. there are all kinds of theories as to why. i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it. i think, for the most part, men like breasts, but only in the USA does it border on fetishism. there are also plenty of places in the world where breasts aren't sexual. they aren't an inherently sexual body part. they do give outward cues that a female is at least somewhat sexually mature, but that's about it. i hope that things will change in this country before all women end up looking like cut-up barbie dolls.

i will say this, even though we seem to think that 'bigger has always been better,' any exploration of art up until the late 19th early 20th century reveals that the small breast was revered and idealized. i've seen renaissance paintings of adam and even and to be quite honest, it's a little difficult to tell them apart except for her longer hair and more feminine face. it bothers me to think that the small breast has had its day, but all beauty trends ebb and flow over the years. in 100 years, who knows which body part we'll be obsessing over and having surgery to 'correct.'

edit: crinoline, i just saw your post, i think we must be posting at the same time. men would cry and hide in their bedrooms if they had to live through the constant scrutiny that women go through every day. i think it's part of a wider culture, this undercurrent of thought that women are somehow beholden to men, we belong to them, therefore they can criticize us and use us as they please. i'm picturing the group of guys that does that sort of thing and there are alot of beer bellies, bad skin and balding heads (though i think bald can be sexy...) in the mix. it reflects a sense of entitlement that even the lowest of the low out of men, i'm talking the dregs of society, the sense of entitlment they feel towards women. we are meant to be attractive and availble to them at all times as well as subject to their scrutiny. maybe this sounds like hyperbolic feminism to you, but to me, it's a harsh reality.
beck
QUOTE
i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it.


i think you're onto something there - if this story on 12,000 women being arrested per year for breastfeeding is true...yikes!
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/mode...-in-Public.html

crinoline
dj- yes, yes, and yes! To everything you said. The art point is particularly obvious to me because I see it every day in my art history classes. And on the rant (mine not yours) of guys rating women, I was shocked to discover that men I knew, intelligent attractive liberal men, do this! It is a cultural thing, that we "owe" them something. gross.

beck- I think we (the US) should do a PSA where it is pointed out that public breastfeeding is absolutely legal and normal. If I get into law school, I'm going to look into "spreading the word", the truth of the legalities of breastfeeding. If a woman is in a store, feeding her child, and the manager asks her to stop, he is violating her rights. It's scary how few people know that.
dj-bizmonkey
beck, not a criticism of you, but whoever wrote that blog or whatever it is has got to be getting her numbers screwed up, at least when it comes to breastfeeding. i don't think you can arrest a woman for breastfeeding unless she's trespassing, because in all 50 of the United States, a woman can legally breastfeed. i did a search on the ny times website for that article, nothing to be found. as for women getting arrested for being topless (or topfree, which is an actual kind of social justice movement here) that i can believe. i live in new orleans and even here in the french quarter, you can see women get arrested.

anyway, speaking of unwarranted, unrightful scrutiny in criticism. get a load of this! my office at school is caddy-cornered to a frat house. don't ask me which one, because i can't read greek letters. i was walking to the convenience store just past the house and about four or five guys were out on the porch, drinking beer. i'm wearing a short skirt today (which is my damn right, i certainly don't blame myself for what happened next) and the guys started kind of cat-calling to me. i just kept my head up and walked on to the store. i bought a couple sodas for me and my friend back at the office and started the half a walk back. i had to pass by the guys again, so i steeled my will and then wimped out and pretended to be talking on the phone. they started shouting things to me like, 'what's wrong ice queen? don't you like dick?' gross. after which one of them said, 'don't be an ass,' talking to his friend. i didn't react, kept on moving. luckily i had sunglasses on as well. then one of them said, 'ahh, you don't want her anyway man, she's all out of whack.' (i guess he was referring to my bountiful posterior and my not-so bountiful bust) to which another replied, 'yeah, she'd be pretty much perfect if she had some tits.'

are you fucking kidding me?!!!!! i would have turned around and given them a piece of my mind, but i was had to get to class (in the same building as my office). i did manage to produce a defiant middle finger over my shoulder though.

i guess that last comment was meant to be a compliment? i don't even know. i don't know what was going through their minds. that bullshit mob mentality maybe. all i know is it gave me a mean case of the ickies.
deepthinker
I'm guessing the alcohol may have had a bit to do with things. Not to excuse their comments mind you, but just saying.
karategrrl
Holy crap, DJ, you seem to have the most horrid things happen to you!

I think you were more composed than I would have been. But definitely, it's the mob mentality!! I learned as a young teen to avoid groups of 2 or more men on the street. If it's one guy, it can go either way--he can be a jerk or a gentleman. If there's at least one girl with them--they're probably safe. BUT... the asshole factor goes up exponentially with the number of the men present in a group.

Many dickwads talk crap to try and ilicit a reaction. I have a feeling that's what they were trying to do--otherwise, why not just comment so only they could hear? Unfortunately, in a situation like that, either one must ignore the fuckers or kill at least one of them--there's not much in-between.

Beck, I do agree--the way many people put themselves out there invites "rating" and the wrong kind of attention. I firmly believe that a lot of the tasteless porn and junk out there is a big reason why I cannot walk 20 yards down the street by myself and not have someone say something. (Okay, an exaggeration, but not much.) Men grow up with that crap and think that's what all women are about. (My first boyfriend, for example, lived on a steady diet of cheap porn. According to him, every woman on earth loved anal sex--because that's what the women in the mags "said.")

This makes me think of my husband's uncle. The man is 70-something, in poor health, and...let me just say he is not exactly the picture of studliness. TV watching is pretty much his only pasttime, and when we go over to visit, he has to comment on every woman on the TV--"Nice eyes," "She's so fat!" "Ugh, she's so ugly!" etc. Sometimes it takes all my will not to grab a mirror and hold it up to him. Afterwards, hubby always thanks me for being so patient. wink.gif

DJ, both my middle fingers up to those asshats too.

Sorry for all the cursing. This just makes my blood boil.
deepthinker
QUOTE(dj-bizmonkey @ Apr 21 2008, 01:52 PM) *
we ARE obsessed here in the USA, men and women. there are all kinds of theories as to why. i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it. i think, for the most part, men like breasts, but only in the USA does it border on fetishism. there are also plenty of places in the world where breasts aren't sexual. they aren't an inherently sexual body part. they do give outward cues that a female is at least somewhat sexually mature, but that's about it. i hope that things will change in this country before all women end up looking like cut-up barbie dolls.


I think you hit the nail on the head here dj, sex has become this taboo thing in our society, so much so that it's "naughty" or "dirty" to talk about it, or to view certain parts of the body. It's treated like a game really IMO, when it shouldn't be. I think if the culture didn't talk about it as much as they do, then perhaps it wouldn't be so naughty or dirty, but just plain normal, like if one would go to a nude beach for example.
dj-bizmonkey
founded by puritans, that's for sure. i don't think we need to talk about sex less, i think we need to change the way we talk about it in the first place. we've got to let go of the guilt and embrace a more healthy paradigm,

these guys were obviously fucktards, what scares me more is that its groups of men like that who will stand by complacently while a woman is drugged or groped or assaulted and not do anything about it.

karategrrl, it's just been tough year, just these freakazoids and those bitches in the locker room at the gym. maybe it's just the school i go to (upscale, private university, plenty of entitlement to go around). old men critics are the saddest to me. i mean, i doubt that old uncle could even get it up, yet he still feels like he has the right to judge the sexual attractiveness of women. gross. just gross.

anyway, i don't want to get too far off topic here, as karategrrl says, back to our regularly scheduled breast discussion.....
beck
yeah dj i thought the stats were a bit suspect too, what i have certainly seen online though is lots of vitriol about women who breastfeed in public, stuff about it being disgusting and inconsiderate...

and i'm sorry you had to put up with those morons. i normally stick to the middle finger approach because i never think of a good rebuff until afterwards...so annoying!
strongirl
QUOTE(beck @ Apr 22 2008, 07:32 AM) *
yeah dj i thought the stats were a bit suspect too, what i have certainly seen online though is lots of vitriol about women who breastfeed in public, stuff about it being disgusting and inconsiderate...

and i'm sorry you had to put up with those morons. i normally stick to the middle finger approach because i never think of a good rebuff until afterwards...so annoying!

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