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GirlFilth
IMO I have no clue about real dolls. I have heard of them and the expense they can run, but I too have little closet demons. I am addicted to sexy toys. I used P.P. with the whole pyramid scheme in mind, but decided I liked the toys so damn much, I kept them. Some of them still in original packaging! (mind you this was over a year ago.) Hm. If my dude was into real dolls, I'd want him to nip it. Porn and toys are better when two people are comfortably involved (or 3,4,5... hehe - just kidding on my own behalf.)
knorl05
ap: you're not expected to support anyone's "poor" choices just because you're a feminist. afterall i dont support your *poor* choice of words. but there are ways to express your opinion without equating woman with whom you dont agree to filth. that's no better than men who feel they are entitled to label or disrespect a woman who is sexually liberated. and "non-trolls"... would that mean all men either fit into a category of troll vs non-troll? hmm.
Mr Pugs
Troll vs. Non Troll....lol I was just lookin at my avatar.....

Deepthinker, as a fellow man, I can understand the gravitation towards girl on girl action...I don't particularly enjoy looking at penis myself, as my friend says "cock-free porn". My worry with you isn't the kind of porn you watch, it's the frequency. *stands up on soapbox* I think it is a generation gap thing. LMP's little sister wanted to come over and hang out with us and one of her friends. She's on one side of the couch and her friend is on the other and they're texting away. I think that the computer and the texting have created serious isolation issues. I don't understand the whole texting thing personally. When I want to communicate with you, I'll pick up the phone and call you so I can hear your voice and tone. Texting and chatting (and posting on message boards lol) are a good way to communicate with people in moderation. When that becomes the standard and the norm of communicating, it starts to become preferred and you really lose out on truly interacting with people. *gets off soapbox* As others have said, you need to cut down on the porn and get out and meet people. While I think it's noble to not have sex until you are married, if you don't get out of the house and meet people, you'll never get married. You don't have to quit cold turkey, just set rewards for yourself like, "I'm going out to introduce myself to 10 people." For every 10 you do, have one porn session. Make them genuine meeting opportunities. If you do that and you meet someone, the time you start hanging out with them takes away from potential porn time. When you meet enough people to keep you busy (hopefully some of them will be girls) weening yourself off the porn will be easier. Places to meet people don't even have to be at bars. Bowling leagues, volunteering, and helping people are all quality places to meet people that share similar interests with you.
culturehandy
Mr. Pugs, that is a really great idea!

dj-bizmonkey
whoa, ch!! are we cosmically connected or something? i was about to write the EXACT same thing. jynx! or is it gynx? i dunno. anyway, that's really great advice mr. pugs!

edit: here's a link to the documentary ap was talking about: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3710987618964917848

i watched it and i have to say, it was very upsetting. even the most 'well-adjusted' of the men was freaky.

QUOTE
It's like the ultimate dehumanization of women. The people who buy them have the attitude that they (the dolls) are JUST like real women, but even better, because they can't talk / express opinions/ dissent.


crinoline, you're totally right. this is the part that upsets me the most. it is complete and utter objectification.
culturehandy
Great minds think alike DJ! Spooooooooooky!
auralpoison
What? I'm not allowed to talk about people for what they let themselves become? I know people that are cesspools of human waste that beat away non-trolls with a stick. They're toxic & screw up everyting they touch.

I'm talking about the people that don't value themselves at all outside of their privates. They've taken on any comer because that's what they've been taught to value about themselves, despite what it might do to their minds/bodies. They know what they are doing is detrimental to themselves & others. Yet, they persist in negative behaviour.

The reason I am so harsh is because I've seen it up close twice & it makes me fuckin' sick. I had a gf wholly problematic this way. She was crazy smart, LOL funny, & pretty. But she was also toxic, & it was a 50/50 chance that the guy she was seeing was good/bad. Nice guys liked her (Of course, they wanted to save/redeem her then fuck her.), but she *wanted* the ones that slapped her around. She fucked/dated guys that were just abusive trash & she destroyed the guys that were good. Because she felt devalued (Which she'd NEVER admit, because that would mean she has a problem.), she devalued everybody around her. Guys were just chumps & her pussy was her sole power over them.

Anecdotes: She saw one of my neighbors on her way to my place. She'd slept with both him & his roomate. He shuts his door behind him & he says something to his roomate like, "'AP's friend is here.' Oh? Which one? The pretty one or the skank? 'The skank.' Shit. Not hittin' that again, I don't want bumps on my dick. HAHAHAHAHA!" She heard him & was furious. Because she'd been insulted, when we went out she fucked a stranger in a public restroom at a club & made out with two women.

We ran into a guy I knew at a show. He was cute. I pulled him aside & simply, "Don't. You'll regret it. She'll try, but be enough of a man to say no to her." (I had just taken her to PP & she found out had chlamydia & the clap. She also had HepC & TB in her lungs. She decided to risk the TB since the meds you take to kill it meant no drinking for six months.) She hit on him, he did as I asked. The next day she was pissed that he'd ignored her charms & she waged an all-out campaign to prove to herself she could fuck him. When it was clear that she'd failed, she hate-fucked a swathe across town.

Did I mention she had a long-suffering bf of several years? He finally buckled under her isanity & she spent months stalking him at his work.

Once when she came to visit, she picked the skeeviest guy in the bar to buy her drinks. Our other friend & I had been saving coinage for her visit & we were like, "You don't have to do that. We have beer money!" The guy wound up buying tequila shots, she wound up being escorted from the premises half naked. Where she proceeded to scream until she got into a car with two guys & sped away. She turned up later the next day at our friend's apt with the two guys & they'd smoked all of friend's cigarettes & drank her booze.

That was the least of her exploits that trip & the end for me. She'd still call me drunk at three am from whatever guy she was fucking's house & then berate me for answering my own phone because she was so out of it she thought she called somebody else.

When we were still friends, I tried again & again to help her. I found her a shrink, I'd take her to AA meetings, I tried to introduce her to a survivor's group. Nada. Here's J, in a cab with a mirror covered in blow! "Arrested? Who me?!" She liked to analyze my life all the time (She kept trying to convince me that I was gay because I wouldn't fuck a dear male friend.), but she never turned her armchair psychiatrist inward because then she'd realize that she never saw herself as more than a cum dump. That was her only value to *herself*. She knew she was living an unhealthy lifestyle & she didn't *want* to get any help about it. If things got too hot, it was denialdenialdenial. And she'd move because running solves everything.

Last I heard, friend had turned her into child protective services because she was beginning her day with a pint of vodka & ignoring her fetal alcohol syndrome baby. She's likely in jail.

*That's* what I'm talking about. The walking wounded that choose to be the walking wounded & pass that illness on. She could have gotten help, but she chose not to. She knew what her issues stemmed from, the drinking, the drugs, the promiscuity were all symptoms of a much bigger problem that she wasn't interested in fixing. She preferred to let her poison just keep flowing over herself & everybody around her. I'm over pity for those people. Now I'm just disgusted.

Don't like it, I don't much care. You've mentioned yourself that you're hypersensitive, Knorl.
culturehandy
AP, that is intense. How can you help people who don't want to help themselves. We've all done stupid shit, but knowing that you have disease x, y, and z, and don't do anything to cure it because it will be detrimental to your drinking? There is a reason she had addictions issues and attempted to validate herself by sleeping with trash.

I'm sorry about your friend.
deepthinker
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Apr 21 2008, 06:19 PM) *
*That's* what I'm talking about. The walking wounded that choose to be the walking wounded & pass that illness on. She could have gotten help, but she chose not to. She knew what her issues stemmed from, the drinking, the drugs, the promiscuity were all symptoms of a much bigger problem that she wasn't interested in fixing. She preferred to let her poison just keep flowing over herself & everybody around her. I'm over pity for those people. Now I'm just disgusted.


You've basically described where I am right now here. It's like I don't want to stop, I'm at a point now where I don't even fight it much anymore like I once did. Even though I realize what it's doing to me, and who I'm becoming because of it, it's almost as if I'm so numb to it all that I don't really care. Doesn't help being in communication with people who are involved in this stuff too, which makes it harder for me to pull away then if it was just me I think. To some extent too, I think I sort of enjoy it too much to want to quit, in spite of everything. I know.....I'm a mess.
deepthinker
QUOTE(Mr Pugs @ Apr 21 2008, 03:21 PM) *
Deepthinker, as a fellow man, I can understand the gravitation towards girl on girl action...I don't particularly enjoy looking at penis myself, as my friend says "cock-free porn". My worry with you isn't the kind of porn you watch, it's the frequency. *stands up on soapbox* I think it is a generation gap thing. LMP's little sister wanted to come over and hang out with us and one of her friends. She's on one side of the couch and her friend is on the other and they're texting away. I think that the computer and the texting have created serious isolation issues. I don't understand the whole texting thing personally. When I want to communicate with you, I'll pick up the phone and call you so I can hear your voice and tone. Texting and chatting (and posting on message boards lol) are a good way to communicate with people in moderation. When that becomes the standard and the norm of communicating, it starts to become preferred and you really lose out on truly interacting with people. *gets off soapbox* As others have said, you need to cut down on the porn and get out and meet people. While I think it's noble to not have sex until you are married, if you don't get out of the house and meet people, you'll never get married. You don't have to quit cold turkey, just set rewards for yourself like, "I'm going out to introduce myself to 10 people." For every 10 you do, have one porn session. Make them genuine meeting opportunities. If you do that and you meet someone, the time you start hanging out with them takes away from potential porn time. When you meet enough people to keep you busy (hopefully some of them will be girls) weening yourself off the porn will be easier. Places to meet people don't even have to be at bars. Bowling leagues, volunteering, and helping people are all quality places to meet people that share similar interests with you.


Could try this, I do find sometimes I'm not all that outgoing in real life. I don't have many friends that I see or talk to outside of class, don't feel I can relate to them honestly, least those my age. Many of them are into the drinking, clubbing scene and that just isn't me you know?

Not sure this would solve the porn thing though, still would have to face it at home, no matter what I did that day.
auralpoison
That's because addiction is addiction, man. Unless you really want it (And even then, there will definitely be some recidivism.), you're doomed to failure. Booze, porn, shopping, sex, smoking, it doesn't matter what it is. It's a long, arduous, one day at a time thing to kick.

ETA, Because I am currently dealing with an addict right now, my patience with it is very thin. I'm at wit's end with this person because we have a realtionship born purely of circumstance & no established boundaries. And I can't establish boundaries with somebody that's loaded 24/7.
mornington
deepthinker, you're at least willing to admit you have a problem. And I really would recommend getting out and meeting people... like mr pugs said, it doesn't have to be at a bar/club (I hate that too), but volunteering or looking on somewhere like meetup.com could be a good place to start. And don't get hung up on the age people are; if you share an interest with someone it doesn't matter what age either of you are. What else are you into - music? books? do you have a part-time job? You're at college - is there an amateur sports team you could join? It's just a case of getting up off your arse, which is the hardest thing (as someone with issues with crowds and strangers, trust me, it's the first step which is the hardest). You come across as a fairly pleasant, literate and intelligent guy, and people are a lot more accepting than you might think.

Like AP said, it's a long hard road to kicking any habit, and going out and doing something - anything - else will give you something to focus your energy on, a distraction. Take up knitting. Develop your dungeons & dragons skills. Plant trees. Work in a shop. You'll be fine.


I'm fairly certain I actually came in here to ask something mildly pertinent myself. Ah well. *mooches off*
Mr Pugs
That's why I suggested volunteering Deepthought. You don't have to hang out with people your own age, shit, I usually like hanging out with older people myself. Me and LMP were very responsible growing up and at 22 and 25 we bought our own house. Try talking about programmable thermostats to people our age who are concerned with which bar they're going to go to. No one said you have to buckle in and dismiss your convictions, find people with the same views and values as yourself (not the porn addiction value though).

My father gave me this advice when I was younger...."be careful who you choose as friends, because you become what they are" It seems that on some scale the people you surround yourself with do rub off on you, so if you have a drinking problem, stay away from your drunk friends.

My cousin D doesn't drink or anything like that. His father died when he was 5. I kinda filled in as a big brother/surrogate father the best I could. On his 21st birthday, I called him up and asked what strip club I could take him to. He said that wasn't his thing, I said fine, we can hit the sports bar and have a coupla beers then. Again he turned me down. I respect him for sticking to his guns and not compromising himself. There are people your own age who aren't into the bar/clubbing scene. You just have to go out and find them. Sitting at home in isolation is not going to solve your problem.
stargazer
mr. pugs, you gave excellent advice to deepthinker.

i think we should be careful of who we label "addict" in this thread. it is being thrown too loosely here. none of you are professionals in this matter. so simma down. i would hate to shame someone because they view porn.

deepthinker, i can identify to you. i spent from my childhood to my 20s being fascinated with pornography, from print to film. porn worked with my strengths, which was an intellectual, introvert, and basically staying in my head. As I matured and had more relationships, porn lost its appeal. even the use of toys. i spent a couple of years really being against artificial things connected with sex. but, i think i was going through this whole existential thing anyways. blame my return to saturn for it. whatever. porn serves as a way to objectify both men and women without the fear of rejection, human contact, humiliation, and/or risk. I'm thinking of the character from Happiness there. Remember how Philip Seymour Hoffman's character was able to say filthy things to Lara Flynn Boyle, but when fantasy met reality....it couldn't do it. Literally. so, dude, follow mr. pugs advice by getting to meet other people. not just women. but people in general. if you don't, then you run the risk of creating your own private hell with isolation and deprivation of human contact. and i also want to add that i appreciate how honest you have been in this thread. i hope you can contribute in other threads as well.

on the real dolls things, are these the life-like looking dolls used for sex? real sex on HBO did a segment years ago about this. there are dolls for both men and women. if it is the people i am thinking of.
deepthinker
Yeah porn does offer that whole no risk thing, and really that's part of why it's so appealing I think. It's easy to get, never says no, is always there when you need it to be, etc. You don't have to do anything to get it, whereas with a real relationship it takes a lot of elbow grease so to speak to really make it work long term. Plus with porn you can hide behind it as a front if you will, you don't have to talk to anyone, or worry about saying the wrong to a person, and everything that goes along with real human communication. It's just you and a computer screen basically, there's no pressure. Reality of course is much different, like in the description you mentioned here stargazer.

You know I just might hang around for a while. I really wasn't sure I was going to at first, that I'd post my question, get my answers and be gone never to be seen again. I was a little hesistant to even join here honestly, on what is basically an all female forum. I felt sort of out of place, signing up as a guy, like I didn't fit in or really belong here. Heck I kind of feared I'd get a negative response for even joining, as silly as that sounds.

But I've found that my fears and concerns would seem to have been unfounded, that I'm fitting in a lot better then I would have thought I would. I think it helps a little to know that I'm not the only guy who is a member here, so that alone has made me a bit more comfortable posting here then I otherwise might have been.
auralpoison
Hey, man, I'm glad you're here. We don't get nearly enough smart guy talk on here. It's nice to have a different perspective.

And my serious addiction talk was simply an example of why I'm so angry with people that let their humanity go for the quick fix that sex/alcohol/drugs provide. I don't want to "shame" anybody (Let's face it, shame isn't gonna help.). I do I look at the odd bit of porn here & there. But it can get out of control.

My friend's recently ex husband is a good example of out of control. He is a nice middle-American Catholic guy. Whose addictions are, booze, drugs, porn. Specifically transgender porn. At first she was like whatever, as long as I don't see it. But he escalated. His job requires that he travel frequently, so his computer became his best buddy. Whenever he had downtime he was buying/watching porn, chatting/cybering in sexual TS forums, buying ladies' undergarments for himself. He was rocking a massive dose of Catholic guilt & he tried to hide that part of his personality from her at all costs. But, um, she wasn't stupid, she knew all along. If she tried to talk about it, he'd become enraged & defensive because he felt so guilty. They'd gone back & forth over it for years. He confined his drink/drugs to the garage/business trips, but he was compulsive about his need to see porn. Like, he couldn't not look at it. He spent scads of cash on DVDs & websites & then even more on programs to wipe his hard drive of the evidence. The guy was completely torn up inside between knowing that what he was doing was wrong, but not being able/not really wanting to stop. Eventually she couldn't take it anymore & got the divorce underway. He's a really nice guy, it's unfortunate that he's fallen under the grasp of forces stronger than he.

It's weird. I really think MrP is right about the availability these days. It was different when I was a kid. My dad was a total porn freak, so I was exposed at an early age. There was porno hidden under the bathroom sink, on top of the some shelves, & box after box in our basement. I started going through them looking for obscene names to call people & wound up becoming enthralled. My folks figured out that I'd discovered them & tried to hide them, but I feretted them out with surprising quickness. Then I got my friends in on the act. There was one summer where three or four of us would gather in my basement to perv every afternoon. Then I guess I kinda grew out of it & didn't much care anymore. Even now I could take it or leave it.

Yeah, those are the dolls. I recall that Real Sex because it was three women & a male doll. It took all three of them to heft him onto the bed, but they looked like they had a good time.

One thing that struck me about the show though, was that the guys had no idea how to put on makeup. None whatsoever. The guy that was shipping his doll for repair made her up right before he boxed her. The tech grabbed her face upon receipt & was annoyed that she had on lipstick. He started smearing it across her face & it gave me a shudder. She looked so used.

deepthinker
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Apr 21 2008, 10:27 PM) *
My friend's recently ex husband is a good example of out of control. He is a nice middle-American Catholic guy. Whose addictions are, booze, drugs, porn. Specifically transgender porn. At first she was like whatever, as long as I don't see it. But he escalated. His job requires that he travel frequently, so his computer became his best buddy. Whenever he had downtime he was buying/watching porn, chatting/cybering in sexual TS forums, buying ladies' undergarments for himself. He was rocking a massive dose of Catholic guilt & he tried to hide that part of his personality from her at all costs. But, um, she wasn't stupid, she knew all along. If she tried to talk about it, he'd become enraged & defensive because he felt so guilty. They'd gone back & forth over it for years. He confined his drink/drugs to the garage/business trips, but he was compulsive about his need to see porn. Like, he couldn't not look at it. He spent scads of cash on DVDs & websites & then even more on programs to wipe his hard drive of the evidence. The guy was completely torn up inside between knowing that what he was doing was wrong, but not being able/not really wanting to stop. Eventually she couldn't take it anymore & got the divorce underway. He's a really nice guy, it's unfortunate that he's fallen under the grasp of forces stronger than he.


Reading that, is kind of like looking into a mirror. I can relate to that so much, you don't even know. The guy you just described, is pretty much me in a nutshell at this point in my life. I hid this side of me for so long, sort of led a double life really, and I suppose you could say I still sort of do. You have the nice kind caring guy, I like to think I am or can be, that wants to help people, and give advice, listen, etc. Then you this completely opposite side that comes out through the porn, that doesn't care about anything but that pleasure, that high. Sometimes it's hard for me to really see the good in me, though I know it's there and is the real and true me. There's so much dark, the good is overshadowed by it.

I was Catholic for about 5 years of this too, from 2002 to last year, and though I would do the confession thing and all that, the issue still persisted. Things never changed, still would give in no matter how badly I tried not to. The urge was so strong, I couldn't handle it. Like the guy here, I was then and am now torn up over it, with those two sides of me constantly in battle with one another, and the darker side always coming out the winner. Of course now as I said before, I'm not really fighting it as much I once did really, though it still eats at me somewhere. I'm at a point where I've sort of shut myself off to that feeling I think, like it's easier to do that then to actually really acknowledge it and do something about it.

This issue even cost me a potential relationship last year. Had met the girl the summer previously unexpectedly at a grad party, and we hit it off. It was an interesting situation at the time, she was to be a nun, and I only talked to her because her dad advised me to since I was looking into a priesthood. We talked the rest of the night after that, and I told her I could see myself dating her if she wasn't gonna be a nun, she felt similiar. Was weird too, she wasn't supposed to be there (had to babysit, but got cancelled), and I wouldn't have talked to her if I hadn't spoken with her dad. So we talked about things for a bit, what this all meant, and she decided she was still gonna be a nun.

That was all for a while, till she got back in touch with me last March (07), she had changed her mind about the nun thing, so we talked for about a good 2 weeks really getting to know each other. Talked for hours by phone and email, really seemed promising. Didn't look at porn during this period either, but then I slipped, told her (had known before of this issue) and that was the end of that, as she just wanted to be friends. It killed me at the time, thought I had lost my wife, and I knew it was my fault. Turned out for the best I think though, as I left the Catholic Church soon after anyway, but it was a tough time in my life going through that which I had caused. One of my lowest points, actually thought of suicide, my grades were slipping, and everything seemed to be caving in around me. Never actually tried to do it, knew I couldn't, but I thought about it.

I haven't bought anything though, everything I get is free, though that has more to do with my dad knowing what I'm buying off my debit card then anything else. I know I'd have to face him, if I bought anything bad. If it wasn't for that, I probably would buy stuff honestly.

But yeah can see a lot of myself in the guy you described.
obelix2
Oh, hurl. I made the mistake of looking up those real dolls. Fine, whatever floats your boat. But there's a gallery where owners (shudder) post pics of their dolls, mostly just faces. A few clicks in, I ended up looking at the collection of dolls from some guy who is obviously a pedophile. It was just the faces, but I felt ill. These dolls were made up to look like little girls! I can't get them out of my head.

(On the other hand, if it keeps the "owner" from abusing real kids, maybe it's not so bad?)

Deepthinker - you know that you can go two weeks without it, so it doesn't seem like you're a terminal case. non-lame smiley face inserted here. Did she break up with you just because you looked at a little bit of porn? Or because you immersed yourself in massive amounts of it?

I agree with everybody else about getting out and meeting people. Now that I'm out in the real world, I wish I could go back and kick my undergrad self in the butt. There are so many opportunities to interact with people, and although I didn't figure it out for about a decade, a lot of the people who go to the volunteer meetings and other groups are doing it mainly to meet people, so it wouldn't just be you. Feel free to venture over to the Socially Inept Dork thread if that's something that sounds like you.

Keep an eye on the suicidal thoughts, kay? It's a scary place, and even if you think you couldn't do it, please go talk to somebody right quick if the thoughts show up again. I thought I never could right up until the emergency room.

I'm quite fond of internet porn myself, and I can't imagine dating somebody who would end a relationship because of that. (My boy will occasionally walk past me and ask what I'm doing on my laptop. "Surfing porn". Sometimes I'm kidding.) But I understand the catholic thing a little, they really mean it with the guilt.

And forgive me if it's been covered below, as I haven't read the thread as thoroughly as I should (I really just meant to come in here to rant about the Pervy Real Dolls), but do you think you'd be quite so into the internet porn if it wasn't taboo?
knorl05
ap: i'm sorry you had that experience, and that it seemed to have shaped so much of your perceptions about people of whom you feel are "beyond help", or who dont choose to live how you live. yes she was unhealthy... but she was also an extreme case. all that being said i cant help but feel sympathy for her, as there was obviously a fundamental problem in her reality which caused her to act out that way. she is no different than the homeless person that asks for change but does nothing to improve their conditions. the point i'm making is that name calling and writing people off is not a very progressive way to interact with the oppressed. i understand you're fed up, but i dont believe that justifies being prejudice or condescending toward people who *dont know how* to live like you. i'm glad you dont care if i agree and yes i am hypersensitive and empathetic of the oppressed and misunderstood. i'm only trying to make a point. just because you dont understand where a person is coming from, does not mean you have to trash talk them, because that's never solved anything. if anything being intolerant of others' conditions causes more problems than not, and i'm surprised i even have to make that point on a board full of liberal-minded feminists. i'd say you did the best thing you could for yourself in the situation and i respect your attempts to help... but that still doesnt make it right to categorize women based on your limited experience.
culturehandy
I'm going to have to agree with AP on this one, and I can assure you that I don't have limited experience with people who don't want to help themselves or whatever. Sure there are other societal problems that lead to one's situation, but when people are reaching out to help you and you still don't do anything.

I am curious what exactly you would call someone who knowingly spreads around TB, HepC, AIDS, and other STD's? There are more people like this than AP's former friend. People, regardless of gender, who knowingly do things like that are trash, they are assholes, and what they are doing can be equated to murder. They are giving someone a disease that can end their life. Sure there can be mental health issues behind why someone does this, but I can also assure a person that the people who knowingly spread disease are completely sane and competant (if that's what you'd like to call it). In my experience, those who are very ill and also suffer from mental illness are more often conscientious about their condition.

As for the current status of porn, I agree, it's so in your face, everything has become so hyper sexualized. I thought I'd seen nearly anything (there are some things I don't want to see...). I've had gross out contests with friends about the nastiest stuff you can find on the internet, and sometimes something comes along and you just don't know what to think, so you keep on looking (two girls, one cup anyone?) A friend of mine told me about this clip that one of his friends set him (similarly, the gross out element). he told me it was two transgendered people having sex with each other, so it was two penis' and two vagina's, each person with their own set, and they were having sex with the other person's penis and vagina. He said he just couldn't look away. I can certainly understand that element.

It was like me and anal porn! It was out of curiousity (as I'd not had anal, then I did, and the porn watching stopped). Some people live vicariously through what is available to them, just as Mr. Pugs said, without judgement, fear of rejection, etc. Porn is "safe" for lack of a better word. You don't have to worry and fret about going up to someone and worry what they think of you, if you have sex with a person you don't have to worry about what the person thinks afterwards.

Sexuality is a part of who we are, there is nothing wrong about being curious about the human body, sex feels good, a person should not feel any guilt so long as the person or people they are fucking are consenting adults. If you want to have an orgy, so long as eveyone is cool with it, then knock yourself out.
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Apr 21 2008, 09:37 PM) *
ap: i'm sorry you had that experience, and that it seemed to have shaped so much of your perceptions about people of whom you feel are "beyond help", or who dont choose to live how you live. yes she was unhealthy... but she was also an extreme case. all that being said i cant help but feel sympathy for her, as there was obviously a fundamental problem in her reality which caused her to act out that way. she is no different than the homeless person that asks for change but does nothing to improve their conditions. the point i'm making is that name calling and writing people off is not a very progressive way to interact with the oppressed. i understand you're fed up, but i dont believe that justifies being prejudice or condescending toward people who *dont know how* to live like you. i'm glad you dont care if i agree and yes i am hypersensitive and empathetic of the oppressed and misunderstood. i'm only trying to make a point. just because you dont understand where a person is coming from, does not mean you have to trash talk them, because that's never solved anything. if anything being intolerant of others' conditions causes more problems than not, and i'm surprised i even have to make that point on a board full of liberal-minded feminists. i'd say you did the best thing you could for yourself in the situation and i respect your attempts to help... but that still doesnt make it right to categorize women based on your limited experience.

Very, very well said knorl. Everything except that last sentence, "...but that still..." I have to agree with you, as it was so eloquently and compassionately written.

That aside, I can also understand AP's complete and devastating frustration with said friend(s).

ETA: The discussion with deepthinker has been interesting and insightful as I have a friend who is close to 30 years old and a virgin. He consumes porn...daily...probably. Not sure if it is an addiction. He is one of these guys that lives through the e-world, so to speak, computer games, playstation, internet games, porn etc. He has friends and they are all gamer boys and all have problems relating to females really. The thing is that he is funny, cute, tough, smart, super sweet, and really down to earth, but he does not make the effort to meet girls. And I think its because of some of the things that deepthinker wrote about. Porn is easy. Girls and real human interaction is messy. He'd rather not deal with the drama, so to speak. He also has mama issues, and I can understand his reluctance to get involved with women, but CUM On! Either that or he is gay and doesn't know how to come out because he is such a "guy".

What about that desire for real human sexual interaction? Where does it go? Does it get wrapped in some way? This must be where the addcition comes into play... you do not have to think about that desire or guilt or whatever because you are consumed by the addiction(s). Very interesting.

As for myself, too much porn affects my sex life with my partner in a negative way. A little bit, enhances it in a positive way.

I do not like watching porn with my boyfriend because his brain seems to shut off, and he cannot talk right, whereas, I can be turned on by something or not, and still be able to critique it. My partner and I have gotten into fights over porn before because we like different kinds of porn and we watch it differently.
knorl05
culturehandy: you're right. std's and illness are rampant, especially as of late. but i wouldnt call anyone with an std or illness anything except a person who has had the misfortune of contracting the disease/illness. why cant we discuss social issues without resorting to name calling, judging, or ostracizing? isnt the goal to eradicate these maladies, and not perpetuate them through lack of understanding or compassion? disease and unfortunate health conditions are out there... the world is full of individuals suffering many illnesses - mental to physical. granted, it would be the ideal thing for people to disclose their health status to individuals with whom they are having intimate contact... but with the stigma that's attached to these diseases, i'm not always surprised that people dont. people do shitty things, i think it's time we stop trying to pretend the world is full of "good", righteous and ethical people. what about the responsibility the strangers who were fucking her have to their own health? they themselves are engaging in risky and dangerous behavior by having (unprotected) sex with someone they dont know. potentially, anyone we have sex with could be carrying a disease, whether knowingly or not. and many times, as statistics show, stds are spread because partners dont know that they have them. but like i said, she is an extreme case. her behavior, i can almost guarantee, is due to drug and alcohol abuse, coupled with mental illness. and what are you going to do? this is why we have rehab centers and mental institutions, because sometimes people either dont know how to, or dont want to, take care of themselves.

neurotic.nelly: thanks dear. wink.gif

and on the real doll tip.... maybe the guys will be so excited about the ability to have sex however they want that they'll stop looking to women to fulfill their desires. maybe they'll see: "this is woman, that is doll" and realize we are real live human beings with feelings and thoughts and value beyond sexual gratification. hmm. maybe. maybe not.
culturehandy
Knorl, are you telling me that if someone knowingly gave you AIDS you would be perfectly accepting of that? I doubt that. Highly. I'm sure you would think that the person was just someone with an illness and not an asshole. You are far more tolerant that I would be if someone purposely gave me AIDS.
knorl05
ch: how often do people knowingly spread AIDS? seriously, that too is an extreme case. oh and besides that, they would have knowingly given me HIV not AIDS.
culturehandy
There have been a fair number of people who have been convicted or arrested and charged, lately of knowingly spreading HIV/AIDS. Further, sometimes people think they are in monogamous relationships, such as a few of the cases. You are labelling people who get STD as people who are having unprotected sex with people they don't know. A friend of mine got an incurable STD from a man she was living with. Do you think she knew him well enough to have unprotected sex?

Oh, Knorl, excuse me for using the two interchangeably. Would you still accept it someone gave you HIV?

Knowingly giving someone and STD is a shitty thing to do. It's vile and disgusting, it can affect someone's fertility (such as the case with Chlamydia). Syphilis can cause dimentia. Would you be okay if your brain was literally turned into something that was akin to swiss cheese?

I work for Social assistance, I have see everything that society has to offer.

In terms of people knowingly spreading HIV/AIDS, there is this man here.

There was an incident of a woman who went to Canadian Armed forces bases and had HIV/AIDS.

There is a winnipeg man who was arrested for spreading HIV/AIDS to women in the city.

I'm not saying this is the standard, but I'm saying that it happens more often than you think. I'm not trying to come off as harsh or abrassive, but I am honestly wondering if you would be thrilled and accepting if someone gave you something that would end your life?

In terms of a person who has an STD, I certainly feel for the person, and if you read my posts, you'll see that I am under no circumstances labelling a person who has an STD as scum, trash or whatever. I am saying that people who knowingly spread an STD are bad people. I also said that, inmy experience (and I've been doing this job for a few years) people with mental illness and STD's are much more concentious about the condition of their sexual health. It's those who are often the sanest that can do some pretty horrible things. I can tell you that if you name and experience I have almost definately seen it.

To touch on your comments about behaviour being the outcome of substance abuse and/or mental illness. I absolutely agree with you, with that said, however, there is a fundamental lack of facilities and professionals to help people. When there are people available, there are often long waiting lists. I am also curious what you would propose we do to people who don't want the hlep or are in denial about their illness/addictions issues? There is nothing we can do. It's not because of stigma, it's just that some people really don't want the help. Rehabilitation facilities also have long waiting lists. I know in this city there is a minimum of four to twelve weeks to get into a treatment program. Not everyone can afford the high end treatment facilities.
knorl05
culturehandy: i have to go to work so this will be short.
the point i'm making... is to break things down to good people vs bad people is far too simplistic. there is a greater reason for social behavior than simply that a person is a "bad" vile cesspool or a "good" virtuous responsible person. take a woman prostitute for example, i dont feel it is right to treat her as less than a human being due to her unfortunate conditions. but most likely she is knowingly spreading disease. pushing these people further to the margins due to lack of financial, intellectual, or moral resources solves nothing.
more later.
culturehandy
I certainly agree, often, as we have both ackowledged, there are issues behind this, Societal influences, substance abuse and mental health concerns. (oy, I feel like I'm making case notes). There is certainly a grey area. With that said, there are those who are sane, and who are assholes who are just out to stick to the world. There are those who for whatever reason, just can't cope.

It is too simplistic, I think the point that AP and I are trying to make here, and AP please tell me if I'm wrong, is that there are people who spread themselves around, for whatever reason. Is that the help has been offered, in the case of AP's friend, she didn't want to seek treatment for a highly contagious disease because it would get in the way of her addiction, meanwhile, AP got her set up with these resources, as someone who has encountered active TB (and as such, I have it lying dormant in my lungs...). It is frustrating on a colossal level. And it is in no way aimed to everyone. When we speak about this passionately, someone may refer to things as the collective "you", but not mean it. Things come out in the heat of the moment.

I imagine this is the case when you said that sthey (as in strangers) are engaging in risky and dangerous behaviour by having (unprotected) sex with someone they don't know. Not all strangers to this and not all people who are strangers engage in unsafe sex.
deepthinker
QUOTE(neurotic.nelly @ Apr 22 2008, 11:59 AM) *
ETA: The discussion with deepthinker has been interesting and insightful as I have a friend who is close to 30 years old and a virgin. He consumes porn...daily...probably. Not sure if it is an addiction. He is one of these guys that lives through the e-world, so to speak, computer games, playstation, internet games, porn etc. He has friends and they are all gamer boys and all have problems relating to females really. The thing is that he is funny, cute, tough, smart, super sweet, and really down to earth, but he does not make the effort to meet girls. And I think its because of some of the things that deepthinker wrote about. Porn is easy. Girls and real human interaction is messy. He'd rather not deal with the drama, so to speak. He also has mama issues, and I can understand his reluctance to get involved with women, but CUM On! Either that or he is gay and doesn't know how to come out because he is such a "guy".


Has he had any relationships at all? Just wondering if he may have had some bad experiences that might have jaded him towards putting himself out there again, for fear of being hurt again. I can honestly say that is somewhat of an issue for me at times I think. It's easier to use the "safe" way then risk more heartbreak.
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(deepthinker @ Apr 22 2008, 01:51 PM) *
Has he had any relationships at all? Just wondering if he may have had some bad experiences that might have jaded him towards putting himself out there again, for fear of being hurt again. I can honestly say that is somewhat of an issue for me at times I think. It's easier to use the "safe" way then risk more heartbreak.

Oh yeah. In highshool he was quite in love with a girl that didn't love him back. Unrequited love. And then, more recently he got involved with a girl purely through convenience. They were housemates, and they got along, and the next thing ya know, they're inseparable. But, it was really fast, like within the first week. And she already had a boyfriend in another city about five hours away. She was just using him to fulfill a void of loneliness being in a new city at a new school. His friends pleaded with him to play it cool. He didn't. All these insecurities started to surface around relationships that he'd never had to deal with as well as issues about himself. The girl started another friendship with another guy within that first month or so. He had competition. He still hadn't sealed the deal. And he disclosed his virginity to her, which I told him not to do. I told him to just have fun and if he gets laid, then cool. His insecurities rose, he got weird towards and around her. And she choose the other guy. He has not tried since then. He is afraid to put himself out there.
auralpoison
Look, you're never going to hear what I'm trying to say, I'm bored with you & I am quite frankly tired of the pontification. BLAH BLAH BLAH. I'm a horrible, heartless ogre, & a bad feminist to boot. Smack me on the wrist.

Yawn.

Can the non-nitpickers go back to talking about sex now?

Taking a step back with they wayback machine, hey Konphusion! You said your partner didn't agree with/like sex toys. How come? I'm curious. He some kind of Luddite or Mennonite or Amish? And I dunno about getting cheap pumping supplies (Although, I suppose a long length of medical tubing would do for a solo clitoral suck.). Like most things in life, you get what you pay for. He's still not happy with the cup & is trying to find something better. We were talking about it & he said something about "casting" & I told him to back the fuck up. Ain't no cold goopy stuff slathered on my nether regions. Of course if he did do it, I hang my poonani lips on the wall! I think the bathroom might be cool.
konphusion26
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auralpoison
In all actuality, modern sex toys were invented because male doctors were lazy. So many women had "hysteria" & doctors fingers got tired from diddling & sometimes it took too long. So voila! Some enterprising doctor invented the "electric theraputic device". Then doc diddled his clients with vibrators & it went much more quickly.

Oh, and Luddites & the like are people that eschew modern technology. You know those poor gals don't have vibrators!

ETA, if the nipples are what you're into, you can get a cheap ($8) snakebite kit from ER that achieves the same kind of thing, Kon.
deepthinker
QUOTE(obelix2 @ Apr 21 2008, 11:56 PM) *
Deepthinker - you know that you can go two weeks without it, so it doesn't seem like you're a terminal case. non-lame smiley face inserted here. Did she break up with you just because you looked at a little bit of porn? Or because you immersed yourself in massive amounts of it?

I agree with everybody else about getting out and meeting people. Now that I'm out in the real world, I wish I could go back and kick my undergrad self in the butt. There are so many opportunities to interact with people, and although I didn't figure it out for about a decade, a lot of the people who go to the volunteer meetings and other groups are doing it mainly to meet people, so it wouldn't just be you. Feel free to venture over to the Socially Inept Dork thread if that's something that sounds like you.

Keep an eye on the suicidal thoughts, kay? It's a scary place, and even if you think you couldn't do it, please go talk to somebody right quick if the thoughts show up again. I thought I never could right up until the emergency room.

I'm quite fond of internet porn myself, and I can't imagine dating somebody who would end a relationship because of that. (My boy will occasionally walk past me and ask what I'm doing on my laptop. "Surfing porn". Sometimes I'm kidding.) But I understand the catholic thing a little, they really mean it with the guilt.

And forgive me if it's been covered below, as I haven't read the thread as thoroughly as I should (I really just meant to come in here to rant about the Pervy Real Dolls), but do you think you'd be quite so into the internet porn if it wasn't taboo?


First off, the two weeks thing was an anomaly really, generally I can't go more then a day at best without the stuff. I think I was just so focused on her during those two weeks, that I sort of stopped thinking about it.

As for the break up, it really wasn't a break up per se. We never actually dated, we were just looking into that possibility when the porn came up again. As for why she ended things, she felt I wasn't ready for a relationship at the time, and if I recall right the tone I used in the email I sent letting her know what had happened (feeling sorry for myself) had sort of turned her off too.

About the suicidal thoughts, yeah I ought to keep tabs on it just in case. I'm guessing you know from experience on this here. It comes up every so often, where I feel like there's not much hope for me, of things getting better. I feel as though I'm forever stuck in mediocrity at times you know?

Would I still be into porn so much if it wasn't taboo? I really don't know, maybe maybe not, can't really say for sure. Perhaps it would just be another part of a "normal" life?
dj-bizmonkey
this may not be the best advice ever, deepthinker, but i've been doing some 'deepthinking' about your issue as well. you might be able to kill two birds with one stone by joining a support group for this kind of thing. i mean, they've got narcotics anonymous, gamblers anonymous, pretty much every kind of addiction support group you can think of. it would get you out of the house or the dorm or whatever, interacting with people, but also people that share your experience and your pain. it would be a safe, in the flesh, environment to work through some of your thoughts and feelings. i know it might seem like slow, torture-like death to a shy person....just a thought.
deepthinker
I could do that, have thought about it before. Something keeps holding me back though.....

As for the shy thing, that sort of comes and goes with me I think. Can be outgoing at times, not so much at others. I do find I'm a little more comfortable with people I already know though sometimes.
deepthinker
I could do that, have thought about it before. Something keeps holding me back though.....

As for the shy thing, that sort of comes and goes with me I think. Can be outgoing at times, not so much at others. I do find I'm a little more comfortable with people I already know though then with new people.
neurotic.nelly
Oh yeah, sex and love addicts anonymous is a support group where porn addicts dwell to try to get out of the porn rut and have more meaningful relationships.
auralpoison
? If that was supposed to be sarcasm, do keep your day job. Most people are trying to be helpful here.

Like any other addiction group, it is suggested that if you are not in a relationship that you abstain from sex/relationships for at least a year.
neurotic.nelly
No, it wasn't sarcasm, in order to have more meaningful relationships you are expected to attend meetings, work with a sponsor thru the 12 steps on your issues, abstain from getting in relationships - YES, and connect with other members thereby creating more meaningful platonic relationships with members in order to one day have a meaning sexual intimate relationship with a partner and stop the porn addiction and isolation. I'll keep my day job if you keep yours. Straight up!

ETA: keep in mind that I am also trying to be helpful and that I was not the one who suggested a 12 step in the first place.

"? If that was supposed to be sarcasm, do keep your day job. Most people are trying to be helpful here."
-WTF? Was that comment really necessary?

eta: deepthinker, porn addiction is a form of sex addiction, DJ didn't know which group, which is why I made the suggestion for a sex and love addicts group. if you have a porn addiction you will be accepted and understood there.
knorl05
oh now i understand ap, you're just a rude disrespectful bitch. k.
culturehandy
Knorl, I would suggest that if you are going to name call that you take it to take it outside. Does this also mean I'm a rude disrespectful bitch too? Or is it okay for you to only name call but no one else can dish it back?

Deepthinker, I like DJ's suggestions of joing a support group. Someone had previously mentioned some things at school. Do you have any other interests? I know that I joined student groups when I was in university and made some really good friends.

As for the throughts of suicide, please go talk to someone about this, see your doctor who can make a referral to a counsellor.
kittenb
QUOTE(deepthinker @ Apr 22 2008, 10:41 PM) *
I could do that, have thought about it before. Something keeps holding me back though.....


I've been lurking in this conversation and I have to add that the "something" that is holding you back is your choice to not join a group. Yes, there may be things that cause that choice but in the end you either choose to change or choose to stay the same.
Good luck. I hope you figure this out.
deepthinker
Yeah that's really the long and short of it, I'm too stubborn to want to quit, and even enjoy it too much at times too sadly.

Incidentally, hope you don't mind me saying so, but can we all calm down a little bit? No need for this back and forth bickering, we're all adults here.
culturehandy
Deep thinker, that is the problem with addiction. No one here is saying you can't enjoy porn, the problem is when it consumes you.

ETA: I was reading back, and I'm also curious about Konphusion's comments about her partner not likking sex toys. I haven't encountered men before who haven't like toys. Maybe he feels like he can't compete with it? I know that there are some men who would feel like they weren't "masculine" enough, they may seem like they can't please their partner and said partner has to resort to a toy.
LoveMyPugs
seriously, if i was home all day and had the money to join a few of the porn sites i like i would become completely obsessed and watch it all day every day. i know how i get when i have a few hours to spare with nothing to do and i'm on "my free paysite". i know myself and it would get out of control. i'm just a sexual person in that way i guess. i'd have sex all the time if i had that much time to devote to it. however, that's not the way the world (or at least my world) works. i have classes and mr. pugs works and what not. so i do watch porn occasionally but not as often as i'd like. this is for many reasons. 1) i'd get obsessed 2)nothing would get done 3)i'd get even fatter just sitting watching porn all day 4) i'd burn out the motor in my hitachi magic wand. on days where i have off i wake up with a purpose. i plan the night before to do something as soon as i get up be it laundry or dishes. that way i walk right past the computer and off to do what i have to do. if i said to myself, "damn i've got nothing to do tomorrow" i'd wake up get on the computer and watch porn all the time. it's terrible. it really does get addictive.
dj-bizmonkey
i was sure that there was a group out there, i just couldn't think of the name...

deepthinker, the first step is admitting you have a problem, but its going to take a real kick in the ass motivation to get you out the door most likely. self-regulated behaviors are the MOST difficult to deal with. we only have a limited amount of energy in the day to devote to self-regulation. that's why so many people have so much trouble with not only addiction, but procrastinating about work/school, eating healthy/excercising, you name it. when there is no one to watch over your shoulder or chastise you and there is painfully obvious perceivable negative consequence (that's alot of adjectives there) then its easy to just persist in the behavior. i know this isn't the greatest analogy, but it's what i use to motivate myself to get to the gym. i say, 'nobody else gives a fuck what i look like or if i'm healthy. who am i hurting in the end if i don't go? i am only hurting myself and if i don't get up off my booty and get out there, i'm just going to feel worse later.' i know it isn't exactly the same, but you might think about that thought process in order to get yourself motivated. no one is going to know/care if you continue in your porn habits, but in the end, it will end up hurting you. this is a case where you need to be a little self-absorbed. sorry about calling you 'shy.' people try to describe my bf that way and its simply not the case. he's more, 'reserved.' he's happy to talk when engaged by someone, but generally enjoys listening and is fairly quiet and introspective. maybe you're more like that. not so much shy, but in your head alot, an introvert.

about the sex toy thing- i was talking to the bf about the whole real doll thing and he didn't seem to think there was any difference in having a real doll and having a dildo. i think there is a distinction, especially in the case of those guys in the film. they are using the real doll to substitute for a relationship, not just sexual gratification. that, i think is problematic. even though i think those guys are generally 'harmless' i have to wonder what kind of society/family/culture created them. i know alot of people have trouble interacting, but i wonder why there is such strong fear/aversion to interacting with women. are we really that intimidating? especially when we're living in a culture which teaches us to be warm, inviting, sweet and available? i dunno. i guess there are plenty of heinous bitches out there and plenty of assholes....not to be overly glib, mind you. my bf has never been bothered by my vibe, but he is in amazement about how fast it gets me off. still, i'd take 15-20 minutes of cunnilingus from him than 3 minutes with my vibrator any day!! in the end, it's less about sexual gratification, it's more about the whole package, the interaction, the support, the friendship, also, the non-sexual touching. human beings need that kind of affection. as babies, we die without it, plain and simple.

konphusion26
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kittenb
QUOTE
In some ways its like he feels he should be enough to please me. And he does, but he just cant do what a magic wand can in 5 minutes


This reminded me of a conversation that I was having w/my boy just last night. He commented once that I was really good about asking for what I want. I had to tell him last night that that was actually getting harder for me to do. Before him, most of my sexuality had been...well...solo...for a very long time. I promised myself that I would be honest with him and that I would be true to myself and this relationship. So now that we have a pretty good grove going, I keep feeling this internal pressure to have an orgasm faster. And then I have to remind myself that no orgasm ever comes to a person this tense and by that point I have so my internal conversation going on that it is hard to remember I am supposed to be enjoying myself! I told him that I don't want him to get bored, which I know is kind of silly (he sure doesn't seem bored.) So we talked about him checking in with me if I seemed a little checked out of the goings-on.

Gods, I have learned so much about sex from the Bust boards. I am really glad that I found this site. All of the conversations I didn't know how to have w/people face to face I can have here. Auralpoison, you in particular once made a silly quick little post that for some reason has stayed with me and really helped my sex life out. So thanks for that.

As a side note, my boy had never tried vibrators before me. He loves them now. He doesn't want to be penetrated w/it but he likes when I use it on him. If anyone has any suggestions for what all can be done with one to a guy, I am open for suggestions.
culturehandy
Kitten, if you are into Double Penetration you could use a vibrator on yourself while he penetrated your ass or vagina.

there are vibrating cock rings, too.

konphusion, perhaps this is why the boy apprehensive, because he can't do what a toy can do in less amount of time.

dayglowpink
My boy loves to have me put my vibrator in my pussy while he fucks my ass. His eyes literally roll back in his head. He looks so sexy when he comes that hard. He also likes me to use it on his balls and the base of his dick while he's fucking me. I would like to get a vibrating cock ring. Speaking of which, anyone have any advice about cock rings in general? We have one that's neoprene with snaps, but we haven't quite gotten the hang of it yet. I admit I haven't been persistent enough and kinda gave up after I couldn't get it on him once. Should his dick be completely hard first or can I put it on him and then get it hard?
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