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flanker_ji
If I felt the need to criticize or attack someone for what they said here in Kvetch or anywhere else on the boards, I'd consider it a corn cob - could we take issues to that thread? Say something like, please see me in Corn Cob Up My Ass?

As I said earlier (and maybe I shouldn't have said it at all), I find this to be a nice, upbeat, supportive place to come and vent, and I'd like to be able to do so without harsh judgement. That's not to say that I don't appreciate concern or insights from someone wiser - constructive criticisim. That is different from saying "You're wrong - you should be ashamed of yourself."

I'm supersensitive to being judged, for sure, but I for one would sure as hell appreciate the benefit of the doubt over being called out. Then again, that is why I've largely lurked or taken time off from Kvetch - despite the love, the closeness of the Kvetchies also makes it harder to take conflict, from where I stand.

Hope this makes some sense... wow, I didn't imagine I'd be coming back to Kvetch with such a bang - I don't think I've had the inclination to be so opinionated here before.

I guess now that I'm gainfully unemployed I have more time to get opinionated tongue.gif

Anoushh, that is dope that you'll be using a doula - it sounds like a wonderful thing.
Thanks for the info on doulas - I wasn't sure exactly what their purpose was before.

((mornington)) thanks for saying what I was trying to say above more succinctly.

((crassy!)) So glad to see you too - your signature makes me smile everytime I see it (so does your avatar) biggrin.gif

((((animal lovers))))

I'm upset that it seems like I can't use my signature pink anymore. It's appropriate though, I guess - new beginnings and all that.

Starting school this fall (Junior College for now), need to find a new place to live and possibly a new job. Does anyone know if you can collect unemployment while you're enrolled in school?

Oh, and I think I'm in love!

I'm so excited!
crazyoldcatlady
RV- i always wondered why it was called kvetch when most of the kvetching went down in the "COB" or "Write a letter" thread (these i know well). i like that kvetch runs more like a intimate community support forum.

i suppose that if one member has a beef with another, to take it to PM, 'cause we 'lurkers have short attention spans wink.gif

BUT in general, i'm not about to curb what someone wants to say. you have the freedom to do that, and that comes with all of the rights and privledges contained therein. i.e., you are what you speak.

((everyone))
yuefie
I have far too fat of a headache to post anything coherent so (((((((EveryBUSTie)))) kvetchettes and lurkers alike. Bleh. Damned migraines.

txplumwine
{{{{amilita}}}} I wish you could be my doula, in the future, when I need one. I think you'd rule at it.

What Mandi said, 100%. The reason y'all haven't been seeing me post as much? I don't feel like it's a safe haven if you can't say exactly what's on your mind without fear of stepping on toes, or being shouted down, or getting asked to "take it to PM." I don't feel as though a safe haven is somewhere I should have to bite my tongue, or be more supportive than I feel, or be less than who I really am.

I love and support so many of you unconditionally, and while I don't feel I have to explain this, y'all know I vibe and worry and pray when you need it...I've just seen so much lately that drains me of any desire to contribute half the time, and the other half? Well. I guess I decided that if I couldn't find anything nice to say, it seemed unwelcome, so I just wouldn't say anything at all. I've PMed a few of you about different things, I delurk every so often...that's about all I can handle at this point.

Even now, I feel as though I have to disclaim, to say "this isn't directed at anyone in particular"...even though it's not true. That's not "safe." That doesn't make me feel that this is still a place where I can say whatever is on my mind.

And you know what? I've said all this...and I'm still holding back. Because in the last two weeks, I have seen things that have made me so angry, if I said everything I was thinking, I'd melt my keyboard with the flames AND probably get labeled a troll. So angry that I'd have to mine the depths of the English language to find the words to sufficiently express it.

So I don't. Even now. Maybe because this place means too much to me, almost certainly because some of *you* mean too much to me. I don't know what the solution is and I'm too frustrated to try to suggest one. Maybe in the days to come I can speak up again because some of you blazed the trail...maybe I'll just keep standing by and venting in private.

The one thing I refuse to do is leave. Even if you don't see me...I'm always here.
bunnyb
[quote] Thanks (((rose))) wub.gif. You are all wonderful and I feel so lucky to be a part of this.[quote]

I stand by it, I do love the kvetch experience and I don't think it should just be a vibe place but a venting one where we share with and support one another. However, I agree with flanker_ji that judging one another and aggression should not be part of that experience. I defend everyone's right to an opinion and agree with a lot that was said in both "sides" but it's not exactly what's being said but the way/tone it's being said (granted, it's very difficult to convey tone via message board).

I find it heartbreaking that so many people did not want to engage with kvetch beacuse of their feelings about the pixies' dog's death. We should be able to raise points maturely amongst one another. Maybe it's idealistic but I think we're like a big group of friends who can be bluntly (but not brutally) honest with one another in here. With the recent climate in here people have stayed away either literally or avoided any possible conflict, however, IMO I think I would have taken it to PM (even to ask more info about circumstances?)

I agree with cstars, I did not read pixie's post as flippant. In fact, as I posted afterwards, I thought she meant the dog had ran away; the euphemism caused my confusion but I think that pixie used that to mask her grief, cos sometimes we don't want to bring everyone down in here and be completely self-involved.

Kvetch is my solace as it is many other people's and I don't want people laying low because of what's been going on (you know who I'm talking to!!!) Also, from my own experience last week, can we please try not to shoot the waver of the white flag? You know, a lot of us in here are depressed and sometimes the negativity sets us off and upsets us dreadfully. I'm not saying tiptoe around everyone but can we spare some consideration for one another?

So... I was actually coming in here tonight to say how guilty I felt after losing the shed key where the bunny (outside) resides. I was FRANTIC that he was without water and my neighbour (who my stepdaddy had given another key to, to check on bunny and clean hutch) was working when I wasn't so he wasn't home yesterday before I left (early to take Papa to hospital) and I left note but worried he didn't receive it. Anyway, i caught him when I got home from work tonight and bunny is thankfully fine and he's been feeding and watering him every day. I also stayed at the boy's last night but had left mandoo (indoors cat) plenty of food and water but was TERRIFIED I had misjudged. I had: I came home before work today and he had finished water but not food so I left out three bowls of water to do him whilst I was at work. I would be inconsolable if anything happened to my cat or the bunny, more so if that guilt resided with me, the thing is, I would know that, and maybe needed a hug and not judgement.

eta: xposted with txplumwine and I said the dreaded "take it to PM"! I meant that in relation to after pxie's post when people couldn't come here, they could maybe have addressed their concerns then instead of letting it eat them up? I find it so sad that txplumwine and others feel that way. I think we should be able to say what we want in here but without the aggression that seems to be residing (and the defensiveness)?
sidecar
well, to go on with the support, i found out today, after eleven weeks of waiting, that i didn't get the promotion at work. i am taking it really, really hard. i have never taken not getting a job this hard, actually. i have been crying. there's no crying in publishing!

the bossman came and told me himself, and said a lot of very nice things about me (he was "honored" that i wanted to work for him and his group, i was very impressive, the fact that i was so good and it would be a promotion made this a very difficult decision and it's why it took him so long to make it, and then advised me not to get discouraged and and to apply for other positions and to stick with the company.)

i guess i should be looking at the positives and how i'm meeting and impressing more people, and making a name for myself here. mostly i am just thinking about how i finished in second place, again (i was also the second choice for a different internal job a year ago and had essentially the same discussion with a different hiring manager). i like my current job, but i am beyond disappointed that i'm not moving into a job that i felt was ideal in every way.

and of course, i have no real chocolate in the house. a weight watchers chocolate snack cake ain't gonna do it.
flanker_ji
((((sidecar))))

~*~real chocolate vibes~*~
bunnyb
(((sidecar))) a: you can go buy some G&B or b: you can go over to the busting trolls thread and live vicariously through the other chocolate lovers wink.gif

for the record: I want kvetch to be open and honest with one another but not harsh, this should be a place where there is no need to bite one's tongue for fear of attack (let's leave that to some other threads) Also, I know I can be classed as a neglectful petlover from my recent actions but I wanted to point out that accidents can happen and it can be devastating and a harsh harsh lesson to learn. (((pixie))) I don't want to lecture but I hope you can see that my post accepted responsibility (I hope?) for misjudging my pets' care whilst still feeling cut up about it and mando's post -passive aggressive or not- was true, there is a harsh albeit horrible lesson to learn and I hope you see that although you don't need to spell that out in your posts, but maybe you kinda see why people were unsure? anyway, you know I'll speak to you about this via PM or on myspace as I don't want you feeling attacked, I just wanted to say that I can see both sides.

Thanks for the vibes re the boy and I. Last night was tough, there were tears and a couple of recriminations but we are so good now, we really cleared the air and I've never felt so reassured before that we're head over heels in love with one another. There were also great make up portions! flanker_ji - yay for falling in love!

(((everyone)))
pollystyrene
I was a little disturbed to read that Pixie's dog died in the heat, but I wouldn't say that her manner was flippant. I guess I'm just chalking it up to an unfortunate misjudgement. It sounds like the dog did have some iffy health issues that could have made her more sensitive to the heat, but knowing Pixie's knowledge of animals, I trust that she truly thought the dog could handle it and she provided what she thought was sufficient shelter and water. Obviously, there was a set of circumstances that led to this dog being an "outside dog" and I'm sure in hindsight, Pixie would have chosen to do something else with this dog. It's unfortunate that it happened, but I'm more offended that someone who doesn't have a sense of Pixie's character could make such an unfounded accusation so flippantly, basing it only on some lurking and one post.
bunnyb
Polly, I was offended by the post too as it was crossing the line of what can be said. Kudos to pixie for not reacting to that and, instead, relpying to the concerns the kvetchies had.

However, my main issue is that it took a post like that to encourage others to say what they'd been fretting over, kvetchies should be able to say what they want to one another as long as it's not intentionally hurtful and/or insulting (yes, that can be subjective but ... "I don't like you and don't care what you think" -made up example- or you are a bad wife/friend/waitress, something really judgemental) Unless it crosses these boundaries then I think things are fair game as that's what happens IRL so why not here? I won't be biting my tongue anymore, either if I'm upset about something or if I don't want another kvetchie uspet by something I think is out of line.

Okay, it's way past my bedtime. Group hug? we don't have to sing kumbaya (sp?) and all have to agree with one another but we're a support group and we should be supportive of one another but also be able to voice when we aren't in support of something.

(((everyone)))

eta: also, cos I value your opinions: I'm designing a new debit card (my bank have recently introduced this and I am thinking of one of the following - fairy,bunnies or maybe a baby penguin (pic yet to be located) what do you think?
pollystyrene
very true, bunny. I think for the most part, we're all pretty eloquent and respect each other enough to be able to put our true feelings into words and have it come across as still respecting boundaries and not come across as being a personal attack.

There are Busties who I have issues with, whose life choices I really have problems with and there's just a mutual understanding that we don't let it interfere with the board, we just avoid each other.
tallgirl
QUOTE(txplumwine @ Aug 8 2006, 05:59 PM) *

What Mandi said, 100%. The reason y'all haven't been seeing me post as much? I don't feel like it's a safe haven if you can't say exactly what's on your mind without fear of stepping on toes, or being shouted down, or getting asked to "take it to PM." I don't feel as though a safe haven is somewhere I should have to bite my tongue, or be more supportive than I feel, or be less than who I really am.

I love and support so many of you unconditionally, and while I don't feel I have to explain this, y'all know I vibe and worry and pray when you need it...I've just seen so much lately that drains me of any desire to contribute half the time, and the other half? Well. I guess I decided that if I couldn't find anything nice to say, it seemed unwelcome, so I just wouldn't say anything at all.


In that, Plummie said exactly what I think and feel. I spoke up last week about something that really bothered me, and a lot of people didn't care for the way I did it. For that reason alone, I've kept my mouth shut about the dog. Thank you to Mandi and Sidecar and CUNT and MsP and everyone else who has said what I've thought as I've made myself not type. I'm tired of biting my tongue, but people don't like it when I speak my mind unless it's to post fluffy cute stuff, so I hide behind excuses of not having time to post. That's the way "everyone" likes it - cozy and comfortable.

I'm editing out the rest of what I put in this post because no one wants to hear it. Later.
raisingirl
I've always thought of Kvetch as a place for people to catch up with each other with, yes, minor little kvetches -- in the far-back past, oftentimes if a Bustie didn't have a lot of time to hang out in the Lounge, you could usually find one post by that Bustie in Kvetch and find out what was going on in her/his life. I like how old-timers like MaVin and Dina can come in here and we know we're not going to miss them checking in to say hi. I guess that's why I've never really been used to vibing everyone, but apparently that changed at some point in one of the years I was away from the Lounge.

And since I don't know what did or didn't happen at Pixie's house with her dog (and honestly, as a big animal lover, I don't think I want to know all the sordid details -- I misread her initial post the first time and didn't comment because I didn't think the dog had actually died; I think about the dog suffering and why didn't anyone -- even a neighbor -- hear him or notice something was wrong), I'm not going to say anything else about that (but I probably already said too much in the parentheses above). But on the whole "outdoor pets" issue in general, I don't believe in them. I am a big rabbit person as many of you know, and I am vehemently against people who have hutches for their rabbits to "live" outdoors. Bunnies belong in the home, in your lap, nuzzled under your chin into your neck while you shower them with kisses, or laying next to you as you sit on the floor, eating carrots out of your hand with their little bunny paws poised gingerly on your thigh. And that's what I'm going to do with my buns right after I stop posting.

Sidecar, what a disappointment. I'm so sorry you didn't get the promotion.

I'll check in again over the weekend, as originally planned. I need a few days to cool off, and I need to stop posting when I'm so damn tired and can't think straight.
roseviolet
Bunny, I vote for the bunnies. How could you possibly pick anything else? smile.gif


I hate to bring this up once more, but hopefully it's the last I'll say on the subject.

I can certainly understand everyone's concern. When Pixie posted about the death of the dog, I was also concerned. That's why I called her and talked to her directly about it. She has given me all of the details - much more than what she has mentioned here even in her follow-up posts - and from that information, I knew that this was a tragic accident. And that's why I've offered her my sympathy and support.

Also, I wish to clear up something. From my talks with Pixie, I unerstand that the family did not know of the dog having any sort of health condition. As far as they know, the dog was normal and healthy. It is only now, after this tragedy occured, that she is wondering what the full story may be. I think we all do this when a tragedy occurs; we ask "What if" and "Why". "What if there's something we could have done? What if we'd put out two bowls of water instead of one? What if she had a medical condition that had gone unnoticed? Why didn't any other dogs in the neighborhood die that day?" The family even considered having an autopsy done on the dog to find answers to these questions.

I've known Pixie for 12 years now. And truth be told, we don't agree on everything. But when I have a problem with her, I take it to her personally. Sometimes we agree to disagree, but most of the time we find that our disagreements are founded on miscommunication and confusion. In the mean time, I try to give her the benefit of the doubt.
tallgirl
You want fluffy? You want happy? Try this!

www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com


txplumwine
{{{{sidecar}}}} Dearest, you know I know how you feel...god, that sucks. I don't blame you for being upset. There's a Green & Black's bar on my desk with your name on it...I'll break some off for a homegirl.

{{{{flanker}}}} Really, really good to see you.

{{{{amilita}}}} I just don't think it can be said enough how glad we are to have you here.

{{{{rosie}}}} My dear, I think everyone in the world could use a friend like you.

I want to say thanks to everyone for their honest, well-thought-out posts about everything. Bunny, I really didn't mean to direct anything at you about "taking it to PM." It just seems that well-founded outrage and simple honesty are all too unwelcome around here these days, unless it's kept away from others so that it won't make anyone uncomfortable. It's also hard enough to engage with people you don't know very well on a board, much less if you're trying to write to them one on one about a subject on which you disagree.

To that end, I'm happy that so many have opened up, though it breaks my heart that something like this had to happen the way it did to bring it about. I've also been thinking that a lot of things have appeared in Kvetch over the last several months that are pretty much unprecedented; there's not typically a whole lot for us to have conflict *about* in this thread, not usually a whole lot that's shocking (except for asshole bosses or horrific mothers-in-law or the like).

This isn't entirely a "wish it was the good ol' days" post. It's more a "wish it hadn't come to this" post. There are no fewer than 5 of you, possibly as many as 8, posting right now that I've known longer than I've known my husband, that I consider very close, very dear friends. I know I'm not alone.

Maybe we can't keep the boards as a whole from changing into something too different from where it began. I just hope we keep a good dialogue going *here* now that we have one started. We can have "what the fuck?" right alongside warm and cozy, and the world will not come to an end.
whino
Okay. A couple of things . . .
There are an almost unlimited number of reasons that a dog can die. We had a young dog die suddenly on a hot day in Tx. The dog had lots of shade and water. I paid (as a teenager, with no money) for an autopsy and found out that the dog had a heart defect. The vet said that the heat probably kept the dog alive longer because he wasn't very active.
Also, Pixie has not only been targeted by a troll on these boards, she is also afficted by the "sock puppets" that the troll will create to keep to antagonism alive. If someone has the same tone as a troll, and posts under a "newbie" name, beware.
anoushh
And yeah, we are supposed to listen to you who's, at the time of my typing this, posted all of five times? I dunno, but I think those comments are a bit rich, coming from someone who appears to have joined the board, oh, two days ago....

And honestly, this isn't just about the dog. It's just a jumping off point for a discussion, something that prompted people to say some things they finally felt they needed to say, just like the mental health/drunk driving excuse/shame based parenting was for me. And like Tallgirl said as well, some of you didn't like it. Well, I didn't like feeling that way, or feeling so angry that I just couldn't let some really painful, offensive stuff go anymore. I have let SO much stuff go in the past, because, you know, I do realize that everyone doesn't have to make the same choices as me, that I don' t know all the ins and outs of everyone's situations, it's ok to have differing viewpoints.

But it's also ok to have some dearly held beliefs and principles that you feel compelled to stand up for.

Anyone who thinks it's just about the dog is either not paying attention, or not wanting to pay attention. By "it" I mean "what can we talk about here" in general, not directed at any specific person.

Amilita, I can totally understand what you are saying about all the feelings brought up for you by the hurricane situation. Gah, I really hate Geoge Bush. It's all his fault, of course.
bunnyb
Just had to phone T, my stepdad, in Ireland to tell him that his brother in law collapsed and died last night sad.gif. He's coming home Friday anyway but mum and bunbun staying until next Thursday, depending on when the funeral is they'll maybe come back earlier.

The boy found out his placement location today - he's in Manchester for the the first year (starting next month). Mornington, I won't be seeing you as much as I thought! Oh well, I'm sure I'll still visit. At least Manchester has a Selfridges wink.gif.

Anyway, off to visit my Papa, have my brows shaped and tidy the house as it looks like a tornado has ripped through it.

Glad everyone is tempted to say more -if not all- of what they're thinking (((all))). Noone said we all have to agree, play nice or be fluffly - it's lovely when it's like that, yeah, but we should be able to act like human beings too and be able to bring our thoughts and feelings out in a non-aggressive way.
treehugger
So I've not really posted here before. I have a kvetch of sorts..at work. I don't feel "right" putting it in the "work sucks" thread because I actually LOVE my job. I'm fortunate in that sense. But...

It's a bit hard to explain but I work for a university. There's a set budget for maintenance personnel. Everybody's yearly salary is in the yearly budget. But there's another division of maintenance-type people called "departmental". And their jobs are much more hectic and stressful because somebody actually WRITES a check for everything you do.

So I used to be in the first category. Our department has several people who do NOTHING. There is lots of nepotism. We all earn the same salary. (unionized). So, now, because our department became financially strapped due to poor management, they've transferred me over to departmental. Which in and of itself is not bad, but they also completely switched specialties on me...whereas I used to do pneumatic work and was quite good at it, they've switched me over to specialty refrigeration work. Which I know little or nothing about THAT.

So the whole premise is, I'm supposed to go with a partner for most things and learn it. Problem is, I slow things down because now it is taking two people at a one person job. It's hard to justify billing these departments $150.00 per hour because one of the two people is a trainee. When the job could theoretically be done for half the money.

My whole issue is, my department SAVED my entire yearly salary out of the operating budget when they switched me over to departmental. And I know they are strapped for money, but couldn't they keep me on, say, half my yearly salary to be still covered by the yearly budget? That would give me a little leeway for learning this stuff. And they've got people earning Big Bucks (well over middle class, at least for my area) to sort out nuts and bolts. They've got people earning Big Bucks per year who do maybe 1/3 the work I do. Because our jobs ARE highly skilled. But there are lots of people who stand around a lot...who waste at LEAST three working hours out of every day.

While I'm running like a madwoman, working through breaks and lunches...but I digress. I accept that I'm new and learning.

I'm slow. At refrigeration, I mean. When they send me on a job to do on my own, because I don't yet know the ins and outs of it...I take longer. And I need a babysitter, right now. It takes people a minimum of about three years to start becoming proficient. (this is specialty stuff...cryogenics, biotech research facilities, and the like). We have stuff with specially blended refrigerants where the refrigerants cost over 1,000 per OUNCE. Stuff that evaporates and condenses at different pressures so they separate out and do their own seperate jobs, then come back together.

I'm overwhelmed and it makes it harder when I have to justify every second of every day. It would certainly be nice if they at least kept half my salary on the regular maintenance budget to make it easier to learn.
roseviolet
((((((((Treehugger)))))))) How frustrating for you! And how strange to have two different payment systems within this kind of department at a university. I wonder who came up with that idea! Does this mean that you're unsure about how much money you take home each week? I certainly hope you haven't lost any additional benefits in all of this. As for working your ass off while others take it easy .... ugh. I think we've all been there at least once. Sucks soooooooo much ass. But maybe there's a positive side to this. I mean, you're learning lots of new things, yes? And certainly learning these new techniques will do nothing but help you in the future. You might even be able to get a better job elsewhere based upon your new experience. So try to keep your chin up, but know we're here for you if it droops smile.gif

((((((((((Bunny's family)))))))))) I'm so sorry to hear about your step-uncle(?). That's got to be quite a shock. I hope you all manage to find some peace in this situation. As for Manchester, is this good or bad? I must admit that, to me, Manchester isn't much more than the location of the airport closest to Sheffield wink.gif

((((((((Faith)))))))) I'm sorry if you felt over-looked amidst all the conversation yesterday. Please know that I'm thinking of you & sending my very best thoughts your way.

(((((((Fina)))))))

Raisin, that first day on the new job is always exhausting, isn't it? But you made it! And you'll keep making it through & it'll turn out okay. And a few months from now it'll all be easy as pie! smile.gif

For the record, I do not think that a person's post tally should be directly proportional to the value of their thoughts and feelings. No matter how long we've been actively posting, we're all people here. Let's please try to remember that. If you don't agree with someone's post or don't like a person for whatever reason, that's fine. But the idea that a "newbie's" words have less value than an "oldie's" is a poor way to run this space.

Kvetch: Sheff's car still isn't fixed. I haven't even heard what's wrong with it yet. Fingers crossed that whatever it is is still covered under the warranty!
bunnyb
Thanks (((roseviolet))), it is a shock (I suppose he is my step-uncle but I'm not particularly close to T's family, some more than others). As for Manchester, the boy is happy - it means that he has time to become financialy secure in first year which is not a luxury he'd have in expensive London. Also, it's closer to London so driving distance and I can find train tickets for £35 which is good! The cheaper it is to visit my boy the better. Saying that, Manchester has a Harvey Nicks as well as Selfridges! How could I forget?!

~*~*~*car vibes for Sheff~*~*~*~

(((treehugger)))

I agree with rose: could we please treat each other with some respect and refrain from insulting one another? No, we don't have to like everyone -that's becoming blatantly obvious- or agree, but some common human decency would be a joy to see.
msp
You don't find it the least bit amusing that a brand new person came in to warn us about... brand new people? *shrug*
bunnyb
I'm not just talking about that, however, yes the attack was a bit too much for my taste. I do agree it's ironic and even suspicious that a newbie warns us about trolls pretending to be newbies to shit-stir, but I don't really care either- we can manage to create animosity amongst ourselves without having anyone else coming in and manipulating us into it.
msp
I think we're spending so much time talking about tone and exactly how we're allowed to express our concern/anger/displeasure that we're missing the point of others' posts.
bunnyb
Well, I agree that people are missing the point of other's posts. I also don't think that anyone is saying, well you're allowed to say this but not that... we're saying give your opinion but don't be horrible about it. I think tone is a huge part of it, if it's insulting and sounds cruel then it's going to be taken that way.

People are missing the point that there's a big difference between disagreeing with someone and being nasty to someone. It amazes me that this is being missed, that people think their behaviour has been acceptable. That it's ok to imply that someone is a bad mother instead of saying: I don't think that embarrassing your child is a good idea, maybe that will be counter-productive yadayadayada.

This isn't just about a dog -however tragic and unsettling it was- this is about freedom to say what we want; however, I think there's a way of saying what we want. Why treat people in here like shit when you wouldn't do it in your workplace or anywhere else IRL? Although, maybe some wouldn't have problems with going up to a new co-worker and saying, well, you're opinion isn't valid cos you've only been here two weeks or I don't like you, your views, so I'm going to imply that you're a bad mother and a dog-killer.


mandolyn
as for respect and human decency and acceptable behavior, personally i could've been more forgiving towards pixie if she hadn't spent all those months in here basically just talking about herself, or to rose and ladylibrary, and ignoring the rest of us.

and to all the sincere animal-lovers in here, thanks for restoring my faith in humanity.
anoushh
Hey, I'd never say that just because someone is new their words have any less value. However, when a person signs up apparently just to post in an infammatory way (sock puppets? Get a grip) about how we should beware of shit-stirrers, well, I find that hard to take seriously, to say the least.


((sidecar))

Mando, you do too rock.



((Treehugger))

pepper
*lurker alert*
roseviolet, thanks for this:
"For the record, I do not think that a person's post tally should be directly proportional to the value of their thoughts and feelings. No matter how long we've been actively posting, we're all people here. Let's please try to remember that. If you don't agree with someone's post or don't like a person for whatever reason, that's fine. But the idea that a "newbie's" words have less value than an "oldie's" is a poor way to run this space."
that comment really bit me in the ass too.

msp "You don't find it the least bit amusing that a brand new person came in to warn us about... brand new people? *shrug*"
i have to say, i've changed my name in here at least three times. there's no telling who that person really is, how long they've lurked or how many other message boards they've participated in. sounded like good insight to me.
AND i LOATHE the word "newbie". i'm not flipping New, i'm thirty-maude-damn-four for crying out loud. being called that even for a minute pissed me off, i'm not labelling anyone with that title.

guys, i'm confused about the dog thing. why, exactly is it such a big deal? never mind, it's been discussed to death in here already. i just find it so strange to be crazy protective about some animals yet eat other animals or wear their skins around. it makes no sense to me. some people are worth more than others, some animals are worth more than others? weird.
i'm a vegetarian and i gotta say, it's just a dog. i wouldn't do anything to hurt an animal on purpose of course but... you might all think i'm totally insensitive here but i pretty much always say what i think so there it is.
mandolyn
pepper, do take some time and read back and maybe, must maybe you'll know why your "it's just a dog" comment is making 99% of us in here either cry or bang our head against our desks.
faith
Edit, I am so sorry about the promotion. It sounds like you have the right attitude, which is that you tried, came amazingly close, and are well-respected by all who were involved in the decision, but I know that doesn't take the sting out. But your attitude is what's going to let you keep on in the field that you love, and the next time it won't even be close. But I know it feels crappy right now and I wish it didn't. (((editrix)))

bunny, I hope your extended family is doing OK and I am sorry for your loss.

Since tone was brought up, I am going to add my $0.02. Kvetch is organic, and no rules about what people should and should not say could or should stick. I definitely think that there are other places on the board to give only vibes and hugs (mutual admiration) to complain (corn cob), to talk about the boards (community forum) to bitch about relatives (all of Friends and family), and to fight (any other place). Kvetch is where I come to be with the people I like and admire -- whatever is going on with them, may it be tragic, funny, irritating or banal. And I react how I want to, which is ususally positively because I have met such excellent people.

When I am not posting, it's usually either because what I want to say is not appropriate for any public forum (lately, my job) or because I am feeling sad and don't want to talk. So then I lurk and am still glad to have this space with all my friends. I don't intend to censor myself in any way shape or form, and I don't expect anyone here to. The only way this place remains relevant and valuable is if we put in what we want to get out. Anyone who doesn't like my attitude, or my comments, or me personally is free to put me on ignore, but I am not leaving Kvetch and I am not changing the way I interact. And I have to believe that a community that I have enjoyed for the past six years at least is strong enough to maintain its core "climate." Or at least, I have to have faith that it will.
bunnyb
deleted
girltheory
hmmm...so issues in kvetch, eh? i haven't read through every post but from what i have read i find it dissapointing that everyone is being so touchy. this is supposed to be a thread where everyone is allowed to expess themselves and talk about what is going on in their lives. why all the negativity? we all have individual feelings and opinions and that should be ok. i am not on anyones side i just want everyone to get along and not to get hung up on all this unnessisary bullshit. there is no reasonable way to argue over a computer b/c so much stuff can be taken out of context or perceived in this way or that. you guys are all sweet and smart chicks and i hope that everyone can get along in here and remember that this is a place to let loose and talk to those we respect and care about in a safe enviornment.
with that said, i am not trying to just pop in here and make myself out to be the voice of reason. i have been in and out of here for months b/c of my schedule and i don't know exactly what happened. all i know is that when i popped back in here before everyone was in good spirits. i hate seeing the petty bickering.

xoxox

(((busties)))
txplumwine
I don't know how many times and how many ways any of us can say that **it's not just about the dog.** I still haven't said much that's direct about the subject, but I guarantee you that *any* of us would have been *just* as stymied/confused/outraged about *anyone* who mentioned a pet dying in such a way.

I interpreted Mandi's post to be entirely in reference to a request to "treat everybody with respect/decency." It's a nice idea, but in practice - you reap what you sow. For years, none of us had to bite our tongues, and now we're being asked to do it daily, no matter what happens.

I'm tired of hearing that I can say what I want as long as I'm not too direct about it, as someone's feelings might get hurt. I've read hundreds of comments on these boards over the years that - intentionally or not, directed at me or at a group to which I happen to belong - insulted me deeply, hurt me, put me on the defensive, flat-out made me cry. Sometimes I've spoken up, sometimes I haven't - but I still come in nearly every day. I still don't think people should be asked to be critical or, yes, brutally honest only if they can say it nicely.

{{{{faith}}}} And thank you - I could happily tack most everything you said right on to my thoughts.
surly
i wonder about the idea of a "safe haven," is there such a thing as a safe haven on any public internet bulletin board? is it possible without the presence of active moderators and strict rules for posting? bust is not now, nor has it ever been a safe haven. it just feels like one sometimes because it's easy to forget that everything you say in here is not part of a private conversation, but rather is available to anyone with a dial up connection and the patience to wait for the page to load.

you have to be prepared to be called on any statement you make here, you have to be ready to defend yourself in any thread, you have to be ready to think about what you believe and possibly change your mind.

i've changed my mind about a million different things since i started posting on bust because of what i've read here and the discussions i've had, and i'm glad that's happened and it never would have happened if i hadn't been willing to hear criticism of the things i was saying, even in spaces like kvetch, especially in spaces like kvetch.

i don't think kvetch was ever intended to be a solely supportive space, i'm pretty sure it was meant to be a space to bitch and talk and hash things out the way you would with your girlfriends over a pot of coffee or bottle of wine and that sometimes entails talking about messy shit and airing out your differences. you can't be scared of that, if you're always tiptoing around you aren't learning anything except how to be quiet and scared. getting along for the sake of getting along is what people do when they don't actually care about each other.


and seriously, not to pull my oldtimer's card or anything, but this hasn't got anything on either the pickle-walkingbitch fracas of 2000 or la guerra de las hermanas (aka the bust/ms battle) from what was it, 2001. now those were some serious fights.

now where the hell is my walker?
mornington
*passes surly's zimmer to her* tongue.gif What she said.

I'm sorry. Not much more to add, but I shouldn't have been daft enough to get involved in the first place.

((((kvetchies))))


sidecar
what plummy and surly said. i couldn't have said it better. (this also has nothing on the 19-yr-old who took up residence here a few years ago, complaining in every post about her verbally abusive 19-yr-old husband who wouldn't let her leave the house, and then screaming at everyone when they expressed their concern and would want to change the subject back to her love of the insane clown posse. or the moron troll who was a struggling single mother in one thread and a wealthy patron who summered in france in another.)

i stayed home with some stomach issues today. seven days of eating crap finally caught up with me. it was actually pleasant. i started working on a personal web site and took a three hour nap with my dog. also, our handyman came and fixed my bathroom light, cleaned out the clogs in our tub and sink, put in some lighting, and fixed our dryer. it's nice to have a home in working order.
bunnyb
y'know, I LOVE you all - I don't have to but I really enjoy (god, that makes me sound like such a masochist!) reading evreyone's different viewpoints on kvetch! I especially like surly's bottle of wine/pot of coffee - that was really what I was trying to get at in an earlier post (today/yesterday/who knows?) when I said that we were a big group of friends who could tell it as it is. I'm sorry if I've come across as if I'm laying down the law that thou shalt be nice in kvetch. It's just my way, I've balked at some of the things said but I am by no means a nicey-nicey sweet girl - I can be a complete bitch and I will speak my mind when I have to and I can take umbridge just as easily/quickly as the next person.

However, I stand by my convictions and I feel that this has all been very harsh. I'm also going to post this here because there are too many people to PM and Mando has brought it out in the open: I have, in the past, felt that Pixie was self-involved in her posts in Kvetch and I used to find it offensive. In the last couple of months I have seen an improvement, where she's become more involved and more interested in other people and I've responded to that and got to know her better and she's really a very sweet woman who is thoughtful and is trying to work through those thoughts on this board. I would miss her if she stays away, as I will miss anyone who stays away from posting in the near future because of recent events. Anyway, that's my opinion and I stand by it, I know a lot of you think otherwise and you're entitled to do so. I will only defend a situation or a person if I think they are good at heart and I would do it for any of you although maybe I have a thing for the underdog smile.gif.

~*~*~*~*~feel better vibes sidecar~*~*~*~*~*~
amilita
Drive by! Been keeping up on posts, but it's harder to formulate my own thoughts and write them out, ya know? But I really appreciate everyone's input...I really value this thread and I can't see myself quitting anytime soon, no matter if I get frustrated sometimes.

Gotta go to my friend's house for Project Runway now...MWAH!
bunnyb
Oh my goodness, oh my goodness: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MANDOLYN!!! Have a truly wonderful day sweetiekins.
roseviolet
Sidecar, for some reason I read that as "fired our dryer". So I had thoughts of this poor hunk of metal, feeling down-trodden as it walked out of your house. Have I mentioned that I have a bizarre & vivid imagination? wink.gif

Amilita, I envy you and your access to Bravo! [shakes fist at Time Warner Cable yet again]

Mandi, I've said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating; hope you enjoy your birthday!

Bunny, did you choose the bunnies for the card?

By the by, Sheff's car is finally fixed. Only took them 3 days! rolleyes.gif The good news is it was all covered under the warranty, so I'm breathing easier.

Kvetch: Headache. Ugh.
bunnyb
I, bunny, did not choose the bunnies. *hangs head in shame*. I think I'm going for the fairy instead (a pic I love which I'm using as both my desktop and msn pic!) I'm going to wait though until the boy's arrives so I can check out the quality of the card. I also entertained a photo of lovehearts (the sweets/candies shaped as hearts that say soppy stuff like "be mine" on them? maybe found in UK only...) I love fairies though and have beautiful little white wooden sign with pink ribbon hanger and pink writing that says "I believ in fairies" that I also bought for all my friends and the bunbun for Christmas cos the fairy love has to eb shared. Speaking of which, I want to see this musical next week: Faeries

Speaking of UK BUSTies: you have permission to laugh at me. Lord_farquhar is cutting my hair tomorrow and wants to give me a "pob" (a Posh -as in spice- bob! Her new one.)
whino
Wow. I really did not intend to offend anyone with my post. I felt bad for Pixie and wanted to defend her. That's all. I just didn't think that anyone had enough information to determine the cause of the dog's death. And I do realize that the sad situation led to discussion about the larger issues of animal abuse and animal rights. I would like to go on the record as a life-long animal lover and protector.
I also realize the irony of my warning of newbies, as I clearly am one.
I participate in two other online forums (a music board and a horse board). They are a little more sedate than this board. While we've had problems with a few people from time to time, it's nothing like this board where you even have a thread dedicated to trolls. It's one thing I kept noticing as I read back through different threads, the sudden animosity that pops up on a regular basis. That's what prompted me to read up on the behavior on Wikipedia. That's where I learned about "sock-puppets" (a silly term, I agree).
Again, I really am sorry that I upset anyone. This thread was already pretty heated when I decided to post. I should have either kept my words to myself or chosen them much more carefully.
I do really enjoy these boards though, and most of the people on them.
I will continue to be active under this name, because I believe that some of you will eventually come to like me for who I am, flaws and all.
Now maybe I can find a nice thread like "what's your favorite color?" or something, and take baby steps to more advanced threads smile.gif
bunnyb
kudos whino for not running off at first sign of conflict! Some fully-fledged BUSTies should follow your lead wink.gif. favourite colour is pink, I doubt anyone will be surprised, I'm sure it fits my image as nicey nicey peacemaker!
whino
Thanks, bunnyb. I like pink too.
pepper
orange.

mando, of course i read it all before i commented. please.

i'm going back to busting trolls now.
doodlebug
(((((kvetchies)))))

*hands out doodlebug's secret recipe cream cheese brownies*

I like green. And purple. And turquoise. And indigo.
sidecar
Well, Rose, I was going to fire the dryer if we weren't able to get it fixed today. What is the effing point of having an in-unit laundry if the dryer takes three runs to actually dry the clothes? I missed Project Runway tonight to go see Tom Waits. It was the right choice. Besides, Martini has a night screening tomorrow, so Sophie and I have a date with the Tivo while he's out. (She just loves Project Runway...ok, maybe not.)

My stomach is still upset. I really just ate crap for the last week, due to my rock-and-roll lifestyle, and well, I think I'm learning the hard way that you can't eat nothing but beef and avocados for seven days. It was nice to have a day at home. I channelled my disappointment over the promotion into designing a Web site for myself for freelance work. I just have to get my resume, client list, and some electronic versions of my work samples and articles, and it'll be ready to post. Man, do I love iWeb.

glad sheff's car got fixed.

(((mando))) happy belated!
amilita
Happy Belated Birthday, Mando!

I like orange and red. And turquoise-y light blues.

So glad Sheff's car was fixed on warranty! The Mr. and I were just talking tonight about how we have been SO enjoying our new minivan! I went from a car that leaked rainwater over both front doors, wasn't accelerating correctly anymore, and just bleh! So now I feel so luxurious in a car where everything is working and tight. And we spent less than half of what my brother and mother spent on their identical new minivans.

And Rose, I can't believe your cable doesn't have Bravo! I'm lucky I have friends with cable...tonight we tried watching Project Runway with this group of folks we were watching the Sopranos with, and though I missed some dialog, it was fun to watch with a lot of people.

Sidecar, so sorry about the job. Good for you for channelling your frustration into something productive.

(((everyone)))

Gotta go to bed, as I promised the Mr. I'd set the alarm for a walk in the park tomorrow morning.
yuefie
Hi everyone. I've been rockin' a serious migraine con hardcore PMS, so basically I thought better of jumping in to post my two cents. Besides, I think all that needed to be said was said, and then some. I keed, I keed. I mean about the and then some part. Okay, so good, bad or indifferent, I love you all. I wish I had a more eloquent way to put it but my poor noggin still hurts.

The good thing is that the stomach has stopped it's acrobatic act and the pain never made it to defcon 4, so I didn't have to retreat to the ER for a nice shot of demerol & compazine. I think the intensity of the headache was also partially due to some sinus pressure and the nice spicy thai food I had for lunch helped that tremendously. And yeah, I am able to eat which means I am on the road to being migraine free. And the pink eye was irritation from the rinse water when I colored my hair. The homeopathic drops helped a whole lot.

I just wanted to drop by and send out hugs to everyone. I mean the regulars, the drive by'ers, and the lurkers. ((((((((everybustie))))))))

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