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sidecar
I was asleep, as I was waiting for grad school to start and didn't have anything to do for a few weeks. My phone rang and I heard my roommate say, "Oh my God," so I jumped out of bed and it was Martini, calling to tell us to turn on the news. Roomie left for school and I watched TV until the first tower fell, then went over to Martini's apartment, where he was trying frantically to get in touch with an old college pal who's dorm was across the street from the towers.

I can't believe five years have passed. I felt so frozen, and oddly, for a few minutes, as if cynicism had ended. I cried when the entire Congress appeared on television and sang "God Bless America." I don't feel that way anymore.

*waves to lori* I was stevie, then editrix, now this. I remember your bulldog and your little girl very well! Welcome back.
flanker_ji
I was 19 and still living with my family, and we were all getting ready for work and school. My little brother normally watched sports for a little bit before going to school. The TV wasn't on for long when I started hearing everyone's reaction to a plane hitting the first tower. When I saw it I was so stunned that I laughed. A plane aimed straight for the WTC just seemed unreal. My mother told me to stop laughing, and then the second plane hit the second tower. I cried when I listened to the radio on the way to work, thinking of all those innocent people being taken from their families.
At work we provided techincal support for software users across the country, but our software was used by just a few companies in the NY area, so we knew them all. And we just waited until we heard from them. No one at work could walk away from the TV. And I couldn't stay away from The Lounge. It also made me decide I couldn't live without a cell phone. I wanted to be able to say goodbye to my family that way if I had to.

Thinking about it all still makes me cry. I've decided to avoid watching TV if at all possible. But there was no way I wasn't going to check in here.

((everyone))

K, on to more cheerful posts.
loridk
Stevie/Editrix/Sidecar yay! I remember you. Isn't your husband a film critic? You know, my youngest's middle name is Stevie! Of course I named her after you! wink.gif
roseviolet
I was running late to work on this day 5 years ago. I was in traffic, listening to NPR when they said that a plane had hit one of the towers. I distinctly remember there being confusion in the reporter's voice as he said this. He said they didn't have any more information at the time, and moved on. When I arrived at work (a college), someone stopped me in the hall and said that 2 planes had hit. I told them that they must be mistaken ... that NPR had reported just one plane and that people must have misunderstood. But I was wrong. Later on I was standing in the hallway alone, watching the coverage on a TV, when they announced that the Pentagon had been hit. I ran back to my office to tell the few professors who weren't in class. We were all so terrified. They all knew there was no way they could teach while all of this was happening. I found out about the towers falling from the Busties on ChickChat & here in Kvetch. I distinctly remember Billy commenting about how stunning it was to watch the first tower fall. And I remember Car being so worried because Mr. Car was out there somewhere and she couldn't reach him.

I'm still deeply saddened by this. The events on Sept. 11th affected me more than I can say in an ordinary post. Suffice it to say that I'm not feeling at all chipper today.

Mom called me just a few minutes ago. She just wanted to call before they got on the plane. She sounds a tiny bit nervous, but I'm sure she and Dad will be okay. I told her not to worry about calling when they arrive. "No news is good news" and all that.
pollystyrene
I remember that when the second plane hit, I realized it was an attack, and felt like the wind got knocked out of me, my next thought was "With Georgie in office, we're fucked." The last five years have been like the ultimate test of cynicism. Like the hurricane last year, it was the best and worst of humanity.
msp
I just posted about this a little while ago... but what I left off is that I was on CNN and here, hitting Refresh Refresh Refresh. Between all of us, I was getting more and more up-to-date information than even CNN could keep up with.

QUOTE
Back in 6th grade, our science teacher talked to us about the day JFK was shot. He said, for his generation, that would always be the “where were you when…” day. Pretty much everyone from that generation can tell you where they were when they learned JFK had been shot. And he wondered, what would be that day for our generation? Would we even have one? What’s funny is that it was the Challenger explosion that started him on that trail of thought.

I couldn’t help but think about that day on September 11, 2001. I clearly thought to myself, “well, this will be our ‘where were you when’ day.”

I was at work, at the Allegheny County Council, in Pittsburgh. I’d put together a big community meeting for one of the councilmembers for that morning. I didn’t have a television or radio near me, so I didn’t really start hearing what was going on until the assistant came in, around 9:00am, all worked up.

My phone was ringing. off. the hook. with people calling to bail on the community meeting. I couldn’t keep up, and all the while I’m on CNN.com hitting Refresh Refresh Refresh.

I finally abandoned the phone to go into the meeting room, where everyone was gathered around the television. The assistant was freaking out about a friend who worked in one of the towers. We kept trying to say, “well, maybe he was late… maybe he worked on a lower floor… maybe his train was held up this morning…” but she was absolutely insistant that he never ran late, he worked on a higher floor, he left early for work. She was just getting us even more worked up than we already were, so I left.

Downtown Pittsburgh was completely gridlocked, and the sidewalks were packed. I usually took the bus, but I lived just over a mile from work, so I put my headphones on, tuned in NPR, and walked home. Somewhere in there I was finally able to get a hold of my mother, who’d been really anxious to talk to me. Remember, around the time that plane crashed in Pennsylvania, for a few moments there all we knew was that was this one last, unaccounted-for plane, somewhere above western Pennsylvania. It was a little nervewracking, sure.

I made it home and was glued to the television for a few hours. A friend called from her car, which had been stuck in traffic on one of the bridges for an hour. Later, I went to dinner with MrP and someone else, and… it was weird to be out of the house. It was weird to be having a burger and beers. Everyone was so shell-shocked.
crassy_mcnasty
5 years ago I was at work at a radio station when the announcement came from NPR and we went live, we were just all standing there in amazement. afterwards i couldn't reach my fiance (my now husband) who was working in the city that day only i didn't know where, i was really worried. we got sent home early and there was no one on the roads, it was eerie, in nj there is always crowding on the roads. when i got home there was a large plume of black smoke all the way down the shoreline. my mr. was in a boom lift and saw it all first hand, he lost a cousin who was a firefighter, but 3 of his uncles, all NYC firefighters were ok. he was shaken a long time by that.

things have been crazy, which is why i've been out of touch. i'm in a crisis at work, we're trying to overthrow my boss who has gone mad, if it doesn't happen soon i'll surely be fired. please cross your fingers for me, i cannot afford to pay the mortgage w/out working, i don't even have any money saved since my brother's wedding ended up costing us $2000+! i'm looking for another job but i love this place (w/out her) and want to stay if i can.
yuefie
((((sidecar & sidecar-fam)))) you're in my thoughts.
(((((((mando)))))))) extra tight hugs
(((((rose))))) ~~~safe travel for rose-parents~~~
(((((crassy)))))! We've meeced you. Sorry to hear things are so hectic and stressful for ya. ~~~~overthrow the mad boss & keep your job~~~~
((((mornington)))) squeeing for you.
((((bunny)))) ~~~mad ass kicking of the dissertation~~~~ vibage for you, lovie
(((((polly, raisin, fina, pink, syb, billy, flanker, msp, dusty, anoushh, DM, tempest, amilita, treehugger, plummie, tg, sapphy, cstars, tes, mavin, tyger, everyone))))
hi lori, welcome back
hi kalevra

I remember PJ calling to tell me to turn the news on. I remember the ex and I watching the TV as they showed the second plane hit, staring in shock and disbelief. Then the phone started ringing off the hook. I know we both had that day off because we had just returned from a vacation. I remember being unable to get myself to do anything except sit glued to the tv and phone. After the ex was able to locate a friend, I sat there and sobbed with reflief.

*disclaimer: I know we are not supposed to judge what people say in the confessions thread. And quite frankly, I would miffed if someone did of my own confessions, but... I am utterly sickened by some of the callous shit I just read there. Feh.

mavin
Man, it has been five years? Five years ago, I was in college. I woke up to the clock radio telling me about the first plane and just laid in bed, worried. I climbed out of bed rather than hitting snooze and turned on CNN. My door is always open and was across from my frat's bathroom, so everyone popped in, wondering what I was watching. I sat at my computer, here on BUST, on chickchat. I kept hitting refresh as our NYers checked in, wondering where everyone else was. Worrying.

My best friend was so worried. She couldn't get a hold of her boyfriend, a Marine, and was concerned he would go off to war. I put Sesame Street on. Bert and Ernie were fishing. Here fishy fishy fishy!

The rest of the day, I went to classes and the professors talked about it. There were discussions everywhere. It got sickening. It was too early. That day was a blur, but BUST was very important that day, so here I am, five years later. I love you gals!

Makes you think about your life, tho. Five years later, here I sit, happily married with a beautiful daughter and a house and car and job I love (altho I am home sick today). My best friend is no longer with the Marine, but he is alive and well and she is getting married next month. I just got back from her weekend long bachlerette party.

I dunno. Just a bit somber today.
txplumwine
I was in the car on the way to work at American Airlines. At the time, TG and I never turned on the TV or radio before work (mostly because it bugs *me*), so I never connected until I turned on the car radio. I heard "American Airlines something something" and turned the sound up. I had just got on the freeway when I figured out what they were talking about...and floored it for the rest of the 35-mile commute. Got out of my car in the huge lot that normally took 10 minutes to walk...and ran it in 1 1/2 (I don't even run when chased). Walked in practically hyperventilating to see 20 of my departmental colleagues, as so many were all over, huddled around a TV in a conference room, slack-jawed. And all but silent.

When I talked to my mother this morning, she reminded me that I was the one that told her...that I called at some point to let her know that I was OK, and woke her up; she'd had no idea until then. My stepdad was at work. I had no idea until I started shooting e-mail broadcasts out to my family that my dad was stuck on the ground in California; TG had a co-worker visiting their New York office *in the towers* that week, but none of those peeps were there when it happened.

I was the only communicator at the AA maintenance base in north Fort Worth, about 20 minutes away from HQ, and had to stand by in case news needed to be disseminated...but otherwise, there was nothing happening. We were all frozen, and I had almost no connection to the corporate communications people - so there was nothing for me to do for a full week. Mostly we just sat around speculating in hushed tones, and I spent a great deal of that week staring at the back of my cubicle. I don't remember at what point - the next day, the day after that - I was alone in the office, and simply put my head into my hands and wept.

It seems impossible that it's been five years. Had it never happened, there is a better-than-average chance that I would still be working there now...but I was a contractor, and they let us all go. Me last, in mid-November of that year. I try not to think too much about what my life would be like If.

I couldn't BUST until the evening, and by then I was pretty much drained.

{{{{y'all}}}}

P.S. Lori! I have wondered about you quite a bit - don't know if I'd been dingoed as SarahTX before you were here last. Good to see you!
yuefie
Somber is how I would describe my mood as well. And melancholy.

I wish I had known about the lounge too and I am so thankful to have all of you now.


sybarite
I was in Dublin, so five hours ahead. It was lunchtime and I was shopping when my ex texted me, saying 'Plane crashed in New York. Turn on your TV.' I thought What? My mister called and told me what happened while I rushed to find a pub with a TV; I didn't have one at home. I called my dad to tell him about New York; he turned on the TV and told me over the phone that, no, it was in Washington DC. I ran into a pub and started at the big screen TV with a bunch of strangers. We were all in shock and a few of us sat there for hours, talking a little bit to each other and I regularly talked on the phone with my dad and the mister. I didn't know anyone else in the city so just stayed there until the mister left work. I had to write an article due first thing the next day; I went and wrote it in a daze then sat with the mister at his house watching the TV, drinking whiskey and talking to my family in the US.

It was very strange being so far away. People were sensitive talking to me about it afterwards, which I really appreciated. I had no-one close to me in NYC or DC. Many people in Ireland did, there was a lot of coverage about Irish people who had been killed.

I wish I would have known about the lounge then; I would have been on here. It is amazing to hear all of your stories; I can't imagine how it would feel if you had someone in the city and couldn't contact them. It is important to me to hear about how people coped in the US. I think Bush took advantage of the situation certainly (to put it mildly) and I have issues with media coverage, but it felt wrong to be away from my home country when it happened, like I had bailed out somehow.
loridk
*Waves to Txplumwine* Hello again! I knew it was you when you mentioned Tallgirl. I think you may of changed your name *just* before I left. Nice to see you again.
vesicapisces
QUOTE(txplumwine @ Sep 11 2006, 04:33 PM) *
It seems impossible that it's been five years.
*SO* true.

Here's what I posted in my old Diaryland journal that day:

QUOTE
I don't know how to even begin talking about the horrors that started in New York City this morning, less than 3 hours ago.

Buildings collapsing, on fire, being evacuated. The terror the passengers must have felt as their hijacked planes flew into the side of the towers. The terror the people must have felt as the towers came down (a co-worker told me that a friend of hers had been there when the bomb went off in '93 and it took her 5 hours to get out of the building. You know they were all in the stairways, moving to get out... I can't even think of it.)

I am grateful there's not a television in our building. I can't face the images. I'm nauseated and I can't seem to stop crying. Me, the one who takes everything in stride. There is no coping with this.

They're talking about evacuating the downtown area. My bosses are upstairs talking about closing the agency for the rest of the day. Which means I would get to go home to sit and watch the second-by-second coverage. There will be no escaping it, and that's all I want to do.

When will we learn that we are citizens of the world? When will we learn that there are repercussions for our arrogance?


I spent the 1st anniversary in the Scottish Highlands. Was utterly grateful not to have to spend it in the US, where there would be no escaping it then either.
roseviolet
I keep starting posts & then deleting them. I just don't feel that I can fully express all that I felt then ... all that I feel now.

But I, uh ... well, I have a lot of chocolate. Including some Green & Black's Maya Gold & Caramel. I'd certainly share it with you if I could!

((((((Crassy))))))
((((((( the wonderful people of Kvetch, both then and now )))))))
mornington
((((txplum, tg, yuefie, rose, vesica, syb, mavin, crassy, lori, msp, kalevra, flanker, pink, polly, bunny, fina, faith, billy, sidecar, mando, tempest, raisin, luci, treehugger, tyger, dm, and everyone else)))

Watching the news and... there's some very scary stuff going on with global warming. Here's the beeb link. I know it's OT, but I had to comment... god, what is it with the news today. They're looking for the people - children - who forced a boy to ride through a burning coal field. I hate people.

Kalevra, I remember reading your post in the newbie thread - where are you in the middle east? I can remember similar things happening with the london tube bombings last year. I was teaching in Libya and some of the students told us they were glad it happened. We had similar problems with last year's 9/11 memorial. I think there are so many mixed messages and... meh, I don't know where this is going. It's a problem of isolation, perhaps on either side.

I don't really have anything to say. Just a lot of hugs. I kind-of feel distant from everything as it never really affected me the way the tube bombings did. Plus... it's less emotional here. There's still lots of media attention and a lot of programmes, but it is just distant.

(((busties)))


mandolyn
(((sidecar))) i know you hated seeing grampa like that, but it's a good thing you went. you'll find comfort it in someday. i promise.

welcome back, lori! nice to see you again.

"I know we are not supposed to judge what people say in the confessions thread ..." i'm actually putting that thread on ignore for a while, for that very reason, yuefie. my skin isn't thick enough.


rough day. didn't help that it was the same exact gorgeous blue-sky day. my stomach flinches everytime i hear planes (doesn't help i live & work near an airport). i wish it was raining.

so please forgive me for not reading. just please know that if it wasn't for bust - and this thread especially - i would've had a complete breakdown that day. you guys were all my rock that day, and you helped me be sane for my kid. and i'll always be greatful beyond words.

really rough day, actually.
1) Doc Tough Love said no.
2) danny's sick again.
3) my cholesterol is the suck.
4) the 4 hrs i spent at work were also the suck.
5) spent the rest of the day at the warehouse-store-type medical building. with far too many sad old deaf people and screaming babies. gah.

the 1/2 of a little blue pill helped a little. (fuck you, Doctor Tough Love!). i'm hoping the ginger tea & brandy will help some more. but i could use a really good cry.
roseviolet
Mandi, maybe this will help. One of my favorite bloggers has posted some pictures of her beloved Corgi playing at the beach. These pics put a much-needed smile on my face. smile.gif
anoushh
I keep meaning to post, but then I think of the list of things I've been meaning to say, which of course keeps getting longer and longer, and then I think "later, when I have more energy." Which never happens, of course.

(I never used to have this much trouble--what's wrong with me?)

So I'm just going to leap in. (I know--I've said/done this before.)

I've been thinking of sidecar. I'm glad you visited too, hard as it is. If it makes you feel at all better I've worked with end stage renal disease patients who decided to stop dialysis and in my experience with them their dying wasn't painful. Dialysis was much harder.

(((Sidecar and family)))

My mom was en route back from Armenia this time 5 years ago, and she got stuck just outside of Amsterdam for a few days, and of course we were worried about her and just wanted her home. She got home safely in the end, and had nothing but praise for how the Dutch handled everything.

You know, I have said all kinds of things about how angry I am about what the government and certain people have done with this whole horrible thing, but that doesn't take away from the compassion and anger I have about those people who were killed. For a few days we were afraid my former SIL might have been one of the victims as she'd been working in the WTC for a while, and while she had a new job elsewhere, we didn't know if she'd started it or not, and we couldn't reach her for a few days (her appartment was destroyed, too.) Fortunately she was fine, but it felt pretty damn close. (And of course while it might have been "fine" for us, it wasn't for a hell of a lot of people, which isn't something to forget.) And if it had been my husband or mother or whatever, I'd be FUCKING FURIOUS about a hell of a lot of things now, including using this kind of huge tragedy as an excuse for killing a whole lot of people, getting a whole lot of people killed, and making a shitload of money for a few defense contractors while we create a whole new generation of people so traumatized and scarred by our actions that they see nothing to lose in killing more innocent people....


Which is my very long winded way of saying I know everyone's sensitive about this--how could you not be, especially if you are from the area--but do what you need to protect yourselves emotionally, and try not to take it all personally.

Mandolyn, I know this is a particularly hard time for you with the Rx, but you know, I think the doctor's right. Every single night isn't good. I have faith in you that you can get through this and find another way. (And I'm speaking as someone with huge anxiety issues, so I'm not just talking out of my ass here.) I don't think it's the end of the world, what you were doing, but in the long run, not good for you.

Of course, if you want to smack me really, really, REALLY hard for saying that, especially today, I'll understand. Especially if it would make you feel better.

In fact, maybe I should just go smack myself right now...
bunnyb
wow, kvetchies. your outpourings have sobered me up and been cathartic. I don't feel distanced from 9/11 cos of the ocean (or July 7th cos of the border); both upset me profusely. They still do.

(((mando))) a good cry will do you good sad.gif.

(((yuefie))) I know. The insensitivity...

amilita chose the right time for a vacation.

(((everyone))) especially (((lori))) for starting the "where were you?"

I heart my kvetchies.
pollystyrene
thanks for the corgi pics, rose- Cute Overload overloaded their server and they're down today, so I haven't gotten my required daily amount of cuteness!

((mando))

((sidecar))

((anyone else having a hard day today for whatever reason))

ETA: Phew! Cute Overload's back up!
bunnyb
I know the board is a little lickety-split about commemorating 9/11 today (although let's honour the dead and abhor the politics, they are separate issues and should remain so - by the politicians who exploit it and by people who confuse the two), but kvetch has been wonderful today. As far as I remember I started kvetching after last year's anniversary but I think the impact of today has mainly been because it's five years on. For everyone who suffered and who lost loved ones, the aniversary is an anniversary but I think it's a momentous one for everyone else. Five years is a long time, to be no further forward and to have more dead. Babies who were born then or due then (babies of people who died or babies of kvetchies or any babies) are at school now and can walk and talk ... what world are they living in?
yuefie
((((bunny)))) well put
((((mandi)))) ~~~head pets~~~
thanks for the cuteness (((rose)))

(((everyone))))



bunnyb
the no-longer babies are taking more steps forwards and living a future that others aren't.

may be a little tipsy but don't ya just love a cinema that has big, comfy leather seats AND allows you to partake of an alcoholic beverage whilst watching the movie?

may go sleep now ... or try to rattle out some coherent literary words. hiccup.
sidecar
Something else from that day ... I've made reference to my neighborhood's diversity. It was once Swedish, now it is (inexplicably) gay and Middle Eastern. Back then, we had quite a few more Middle Eastern restaurants than we do now, but it's an area in which a number of Arabs have settled. One memory that just guts me is walking home from my apartment to Martini's in the evening, having spent three hours with my roommate, alternating between smoking and watching TV in silence, we walked past one of the Middle Eastern bakeries. It was around 10 pm, far later than it was ever open, and the lights were on. The owner sat behind the counter, in a chair, with a baseball bat in her lap and one eye on the television.

We weren't able to get ahold of our friend R, who lived in Chelsea, but we knew he was okay. When we did get in touch, in the early evening, he was dead drunk, for the second time in his life. When we went to visit NYC in November of that year, we stayed with our friend who lived in the financial district, about three blocks from Ground Zero. I've never seen anything so sobering.

Being a coast away, I wasn't directly affected. But having been to NYC before the attacks and rather shortly after, plus visiting regularly since then ... it's recovering, certainly. But it's changed irrevocably. The first time I came into LaGuardia, following the East River in, seeing the skyline with that horrible hole in it. I'll never forget it, no matter how used to it I've become.
amilita
Hey all! We are having a wonderful vacation, and I've been scanning Kvetch almost every night, just not writing. Cape Cod is so, so lovely! I already want to come back sometime. Today we froliced by the Atlantic...after we spent most of the day at a clinic getting the Mr. seen for an infected spider bite (we assume that's what it is) and then getting the Rx filled. He has a history of those getting totally out of hand and being laid up while all swollen and in pain, so hopefully this will take care of it before it gets horrible.

It's a heavy day, today, though I feel somewhat removed from it being on holiday and all...I don't think I could take a full-on heavy day, anyhow. I'm feeling for everyone, especially those who were directly impacted by what happened 5 years ago.

I remember waking up in Austin after working the night before and turning on the TV...it took me awhile to really figure out what was going on. It was such a scary time. My mom was visiting Africa, and I remember being so terrified she wouldn't be able to get back into the country and would face who knows what in a foreign land while who knows what developed in the world.

Hugs to all, especially (((sidecar)))

(sort of) as Tes says, love and kisses and seagulls and fishes!
raisingirl
Feh. I remember feeling an overwhelming sense of anger at all of the naive people who never thought the day would come that we would experience a "successful" terrorist attack on our land. I always thought it was just a matter of time before it happened here. I remember wondering why there seemed to be collective amnesia about the bombing at the WTC underground parking garage years earlier and how it had been glossed over. Of course it's sad that so many lives were lost and affected (I don't mean to diminish that, but it's not the point of my post -- I can't even begin to imagine the loss on a personal level), but it's more of a crime that our government was asleep about this for years and years -- and I don't solely blame the GWB administration. Terrorism has affected the rest of the world for decades and decades; I don't see why our precious United States of America should have been so naive to think otherwise. It's sickening to know that a lot of people think that we're somehow above it all.

I still think we should wake the fuck up and start with the racial profiling as is done in Israel and stop being so damn politically correct. It's not racist to do so; it's smarter than doing a full body cavity search on 90-year-old grandmothers in wheelchairs. I say this knowing I would most likely get more shit than the average American, as well as some of my relatives, because of my coloring. And In the days following September 11, I was asked TOO MANY times if I was Muslim, oftentimes by total strangers or acquaintances. Why does it matter? It didn't matter on September 10; why should it matter on the 12th? That still pisses me off.

This "war on terrorism" is going to last several generations; how can it not?

I hate that GWB has turned this whole thing of a battle of good versus evil, because he has so totally missed the point.

And with that, I'm off to make some hot chocolate. ((((Kvetchies)))))
pollystyrene
Your post reminded me of something positive, sidecar. There was a mosque here in the Chicago area, that within days after 9/11 had been vandalized- graffiti and rocks thrown through the windows. The next night after it happened, and for a couple of weeks afterwards, people from the neighborhood and greater area formed a human chain around it to protect it from further damage. That made me happy that week.
hummingbird
QUOTE(hummingbird @ Sep 11 2006, 04:58 PM) *

So, a bunch of Americans died on 9/11, twas a tragedy, but tragedy happens everyday. More despair and hopelessness with my tea please. Thank you.


Kvetchies,

This quote above is the only part of my post that I regret writing. I was being flip and trying to be funny, and I had just logged onto bust. I had no idea that busties would be in deep grief over 9/11.
I hit a nerve. My bad. But, let me explain further.

9/11 was the beginning of a war, an ideological war to secure "democracy" in a foriegn land to supplant the vested interests of the oligarchy. 9/11 was allowed to happen. Sorry kids. We have the most powerful military in the world, 9/11 was allowed to happen.

The first lives to be lost were Americans, but then terrorism changed hands, and now people in Iraq and Afghanistan continue to die. This war should be called the 9/11 war or something because PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING. Lives are being taken all over the fucking world because of politics. I will not separate the two. Good politics=lives saved. Bad politics=lives lost.

I am not grieving. I cannot. I agree with raisingirl:

"Terrorism has affected the rest of the world for decades and decades; I don't see why our precious United States of America should have been so naive to think otherwise. It's sickening to know that a lot of people think that we're somehow above it all."

And in most cases, this government is the biggest gangsta out in the world, spreading its terror.

Yufie,

If opinions like mine seem callous to you, okay, you're entitled to your opinion. That is what the bust board is about. But you took it a step further and called the people holding these opinions pathetic. Well, maybe we are just a mirror for how you really feel. Bless you on your way.

Anyhow.

*Mint Juleps for all Kvetchies of Bust*






anoushh
I think I understand what you are trying to say, hummingbird. But it is possible to grieve the losses of innocent people in New York, DC, and on those planes as much as it is to grieve the horrors that happened before and since then. It doesn't have to be either/or.

tallgirl
Out. Of. Line.

And that's all I'm going to say on the matter right now.
yuefie
Hummingbird,

Yes, I am entitled to my opinion. Even if it is that others who are callous and insensitive to those affected by any tragedy, and cannot find compassion and empathy, are pathetic.

I agree with the points you made below. But I also think the way you represented your feelings was a bit harsh and could cause those BUSTies who ARE grieving further pain. We all say things off the cuff at times that may cause others pain when none was intended. And by the way, what I said was not soley directed at you or your post. I was referring to the general sense of "who gives a fuck, get over it already" I keep running in to. I've seen so much of it lately, even in regards to the Katrina victims and survivors. I've encountered so many who are thoughtless in how their flippant criticism of 9/11 being memorialized could be very hurtful to those who suffered. That is my beef, and that alone. I understand and agree with most of the points made, especially in how the media and the government have handled them. I am of the opinion that our own government was complicit in these acts. To what extent, I am not sure. But I know they are as guilty as sin. Yes, people die every day. Yes, tragedies occur all the time. I feel for all the people who grieve the loss of loved ones, especially when it is plain grizzly murder. But I am not speaking of just 9/11. People have the attitude of "well, it didn't affect anyone I know". It's like the whole "not in my backyard" thing, and it irks me. I just do not see how our government, or any government being responsible for or complicit in the loss of life diminishes the pain of those who's lives have been torn apart. I am saddened by any loss of life. I do not think the victims of 9/11 are any better than those who suffered the holocaust, or the tsunami, or any of the hurricanes. I do not feel that one loss is greater than another. I just feel that some sensitivity is needed, especially when dealing with a large group of people, some who may still be dealing with their own grief of the situation.

And if my comment touched a nerve, than perhaps you aren't as callous or hard on the subject as you think you are. And maybe they held a mirror up for you just the same. Anyhow, thanks for the clarification.


/end thread hogging.

(((anoushh))) I agree with what you said.


((((tallgirl)))

((((kvetchettes and kvetchers)))) my *pathetic* self loves you all to pieces. wub.gif






anoushh
Hummingbird, I don't know how you can say you are upset over people dying and then say you are not grieving. I'm grieving. Every damn day I"m grieving.

Anyway, respect for peoples grief needs to be there, whatever your personal views, even if they aren't grieving the same things or the same way you are. Especially on difficult days like anniversaries.

I am hesitant to even post this as I know that people probably want the subject dropped. So if this is out of line, I apologise. I won't post any more on the subject here, whatever else is said.

Yufie, I agree with you that there is such a callous attitude to loss and suffering in this country these days. We have become--maybe we always were--such an uncompassionate and selfish society. As much as some things in the UK bothered me, at least the idea of having a sense of social obligation and a concern for people's well being and certain basic standards wasn't a totally foreign concept in politics and public life there. (it's slipping, but still some of anyway.) In the US unless you are the fabled "middle class"--who in practice get sound bites and nothing mor--the hell with you.
Not my problem! Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps! If you don't have boots, probably because you are a bad person anyway!

On a completely different subject, I"m not thrilled with the childbirth class. Or should I say, with the other members of the class. We've only been to one so far, so with luck it will get better. (It's Tuesday nights, so we'll see how tomorrow goes.)

Another thing I remember about 9/11 now is how scared I was. I mean b/c of how I look, and the hostility that was around (and i live in a pretty tolerant, hippy place in a lot of ways.) But just an hour up the freeway a man was beaten at a rest stop b/c some morons thought that he (a sikh with a turban) was an Arab. ("cause of course if he had been an Arab it would have been perfectly justified to beat the poor man to a pulp.) I was scared personally. Which was pretty crap because I knew that I was safer than a hell of a lot of people and I certainly wasn't the only one who was scared. It's not what should happen in a time like that, but it did.
roseviolet
I would appreciate it, Hummingbird, if you removed that post from this thread and placed it in a more apporopriate area ... perhaps the Confessions thread where this whole discussion originated.

((((((((((Kvetchies))))))))))
hummingbird
roseviolet,
I am not sure how to remove my post. I wasn't sure where to post this because there were several posts made around the insensitivity of others in several threads by several different busties. So, I posted here because it was being discussed more. I felt I would be on topic. But I will gladly remove it. I am also going to copy my post and put it in the confessions thread.

anoushh,
In response to your first post: good point, things do not have to be that black and white. In response to your second post: I am not upset or grieving, but it's mainly because I haven't turned on the t.v. or radio. I choose not to be inundated by all the anniversary stuff in the media. It's easier that way.

tallgirl,
no comment.

yuefie,
your points are well taken. thanks.

Okay. Bye bye.
bunnyb
hummingbird, edit and delete works.

amilita! glad to hear you're having a well-deserved break!

(((anoushh))) hope tonight's class is better, what is it that you don't like about the other clasmates?

(((crassy))) we've meeced you! I'm sorry things are crappy just now, plenty of oust the boss vibes your way.

overslept but no hangover as a result! hee.

kvetch: internet connection playing up and really beginning to annoy me. Instead of viewing it as a blessing -no disraction from work- I am using it as means of procrastination by continually refreshing my wireless settings.

(((everyone)))

eta: I've phoned my bf at home and on her mobile (cell) and no answer ... I'm wondering whether she's gone into labour (due Thursday)! Squee!
raisingirl
WORD, Anoushh. I got the same kind of shit as well for the same reasons and felt scared on a personal level.

Fuck. Did I wake up on the wrong side of the bed? I'm feeling ten kinds of ugly and blobby. I also don't know if my tub is going to be fixed this morning before I go to work (it needs to be snaked) and I realllllllllly don't want to shower at the gym while wearing flip-flops (to ward off the fungi and other lurking germs on the shower floor*) and being around a bunch of naked old ladies. I hate that shit. So maybe I'll just go to work a little unclean but at least with my public nudity complex intact. Grr! Stupid stupid stupid.


*I'm not even a germophobe; I never buy antibacterial soap. There's just something about showering at a gym that I have never, ever liked.
mandolyn
(((annoush))) i appreciate your honesty, luv. and perhaps someday soon i might ask you for some guidance. but .... i just am so not a tough love person. i need to be coddled. there. i said it.

(((yuefie))) thanks for putting into words what i couldn't possibly express.

(((rose))) the corgi helped. alot.
(((tallgirl)))

this is by no means a threat or an ultimatum, because i think the best thing about these boards are healthy discussion and expression of varied opinions. but i'm a little aghast at some of the opinions being expressed, and how they're being expressed. i would've thought better of busties in general, and especially certain busties.

even if i wasn't a total and complete stressball this week, i have zero tolerance for assinine callous bullshit. there's a time and a place. if you don't get that, then you're a moron and it's not your fault. if you do get it and just don't care, you're not someone i want to have a discussion with in the first place.

so yeah. see you guys in a couple of days.
msp
Sorry to come back to this so late, but I just saw it.

QUOTE(raisingirl @ Sep 11 2006, 08:56 PM) *

I still think we should wake the fuck up and start with the racial profiling as is done in Israel and stop being so damn politically correct.

It breaks my heart to hear you say this. Please, I strongly urge you to learn more about this racist, ineffective, and inefficient policy before you advocate for it.

Sanctioned Bias: Racial Profiling Since 9/11
Starting on page 8 is a series of comments from law enforcement officials and police officers, most echoing the following:

QUOTE
Barbara A. Markham has been a police officer with the Oak Point Police Department in North Texas since 1983. She has been an undercover narcotics investigator since 1986, and is the recipient of awards and letters of commendation from the Department of Treasury-Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for her investigative work. She has also been an outspoken critic of the Texas police for engaging in racial profiling in the enforcement of narcotics laws – profiling that has focused virtually exclusively on African Americans. In a recent interview, Officer Markham told the ACLU:

“Racial profiling is utilized when you have no intelligence and you’re just casting a wide net and having to use a process of elimination out of that wide net. Racial profiling is a lazy method for law enforcement. You’re not using investigative leads; you’re not using any investigative skill, all you’re doing is casting a wide net against one group, one segment of society, and that’s what we call ‘going fishing,’ and you’re going to come up empty-handed. The better way is to simply investigate terrorism by behaviors exhibited by specific individuals. It’s not the color of one’s skin or their ethnicity that should indict them or bring them under police scrutiny. It should be their behaviors or actions – what they do.”


A number of law enforcement groups have come out against the practice of racial profiling, concerned that casting a wide net would not the most productive use of their time and limited resources.
QUOTE(raisingirl @ Sep 11 2006, 08:56 PM) *

And In the days following September 11, I was asked TOO MANY times if I was Muslim, oftentimes by total strangers or acquaintances. Why does it matter? It didn't matter on September 10; why should it matter on the 12th? That still pisses me off.

If we did institute a policy of racial profiling, you could likely expect more of this, and worse. Innocent American citizens are being thrown off of airlines because the color of their skin upset other passengers. American citizens of middle eastern dissent (and sometimes, just anyone who looks the least bit non-white) are regularly being harrassed at the airport due simply to the color of their skin. Where does it end? If we start saying it's okay to assume these people are suspects, how far are we from National ID cards? Internment camps?

Again, I urge you to explore this issue further.
roseviolet
Thank you MsP.

I'll give you one example of how unreliable racial profiling can be: Timothy McVeigh. The man was white as can be, but he killed 168 people. A person does not have to be of Middle-Eastern decent to be a terrorist.

This subject of conversation seems to have continued over in the Bust Secret thread. Just so you know.

[follows Mandi out of thread until it returns to normal]
bunnyb
I think there is a very fine line between racial profiling and discrimination. I don't know much about it but what I did read cited the Oklahoma bombings as an anti racist-profiling example: in the aftermath of the bombings, the authorities spent a disproportionate time investigating people of Middle Eastern descent.

eta: xpost with rose with whom I seem to be on same wave-length!
raisingirl
MsP, you're right, I probably do need to think more about it and I probably shouldn't have typed away without thinking. I admit that. I was just so mad about it yesterday and was thinking that the current way of doing things isn't working, but I'm not the President, so I don't have a solution.

I didn't mean for my comments to be taken as being racist (because I HAVE been on the other side of it at airports for "looking Middle Eastern" and having my bags searched more than the average whitey), but I just have gotten so fed up with air travel being the pain in the ass that it is now. And not even pain in the ass, but more a violation of my privacy. Yeah, I guess it WOULD be worse with racial profiling. I still think it's different than racism, but maybe reading that link will convince me otherwise.

Because of Richard Reid -- one single person -- we all have to take our shoes off at security checkpoints. Does anyone ever question this anymore? It's not mandatory to remove your shoes, but you are given even more grief and scrutinization if you don't comply and take your shoes off. I know because I have objected (I wasn't wearing socks, hah) and got total shit for it. What the hell is that all about? I think THAT is ineffective and inefficient, to screen absolutely everyone's shoes before they board a plane all because of one idiot.

I mean, what's next? I'm waiting for a woman to hide an explosive in her bra so that we can all take off our bras at airports. Maybe they'll outlaw underwire bras and we'll all have to travel with droopy boobies or uniboobs (sports bras). Can you imagine?! ::tongue firmly in cheek::

I'm going to read that ACLU report when I'm not rushing out the door, MsP, so thanks for that.

ETA: Plus, by the time terrorists get to the airport/subway platform/open market hours or minutes before the attack, IT'S TOO LATE. Again, faulty intelligence.

All right. I do like the differing opinions. I'm not mad, just a little miffed at our US intelligence and feeling like our government has let us down time and time again. I'm not anti-American; I just expect better. I won't say anything else about it here. Sorry for ruffling feathers and back to regular kvetching.

Pavlova, anyone?
bunnyb
now, that is why I heart my kvetchies. 'Cos we can sometimes hold a contentious discussion without getting our panties in a twist wink.gif. It either kicks off and someone flounces or we can give it some space and act like grown-ups (speaks the little twenty-five year old who is currently singing along to her ipod whilst recording iherself on her phone).

hehe, if you make pavlova this weekend, raisin, then I'm wanting photos!

*yeah I was making it look festive again, your point?
faith
[Note: this post has been edited; see below]

I didn't come on Bust yesterday because I didn't have any extra emotional resources but now that I've had a good night's sleep I can face it. Yesterday I went to a memorial Quaker service and I spent the day with five loops of black velvet ribbon around my wrist and it helped me, somehow.

Raisin -- I appreciate your frustration but please know when you talk about racial profiling you are talking about some of the people on these boards and their loved ones. So it's hard not to take personally. I am biting back some very angry words because I am fervently hoping that you didn't mean to hurt me (or anyone but I only speak for myself).

On September 11, I had moved out of New York for two weeks, and left my loved one, the first person in his family to be born in the United States and XXXXXXXXXXX [he is Middle Eastern]. He XXXXX was temping downtown. It's hard for me to talk about him because the end of our relationship was so painful but he was the first person I ever loved; and despite his skin and features, and the religion of his relatives, he has less in common with those terrorists than anyone I know -- he's fervently patriotic (though critical of the assholes in charge now), loves Richard Pryor, Peter Sellers, and Maurice Sendak, and doesn't really care much for politics. My torts class was interrupted at 8:45 am to tell us that a plane had hit the tower. I ran outside with my cell phone trying to get through, and then someone told me that two car bombs had gone off in DC and "the capitol was on fire" (not true, but lead to my feeling that the world was ending - I grew up in DC, where I now live). It took me four hours to get in touch with my boyfriend. I was terrified that he was hurt, and then I was terrified that a group of angry people might have "racially profiled" him and beat him to death.

The rest of my day was spent texting my best friend XXXXXXXXX; she was trapped in midtown and no one would let her back into our old apartment in the village XXXXXXXXXXX. Because of technological difficulties associated with the zillions of people trying to find their loved ones I was the only one she could talk to, even though I was an hour away. Everyone thought more planes were coming.

I took a train into the city three days later and Grand Central was filled with those horrible lost posters of people trying to find their loved ones. Many of whom had dark skin and middle eastern features. How could you profile them? Tell me how to find the maniacs, the psychopaths, the zealots, the murders. Does he look like Hitler? Does he look like a soldier in Nanjing? Or does she look like an Afrikaaner? Or how about Queen Isabella, architect of the Inquisition? You tell me how you find them. You tell me who should be humiliated and harmed in order to make "us" feel safer, but not actually become safer.

I guess that night of sleep didn't actually help.

As for Hummingbird -- I'm glad to see such an expert on geopolitical process on the boards. I am sure you have spent time in many of the countries ravaged by terrorism. I know that my experiences in Jerusalem, and even the UK made me feel similarly that a large-scale catastrophic event was inevitable here in the US. And yes, I believe another one is coming. But not because it was "allowed to happen." Anyone who believes that is a lazy conspiracy theorist of the worst kind -- it lets you off the hook so you don't have to engage with the problem. At a policy level, people are trying to prevent this kind of tragedy, out of self-interest and out of a sense of the public good. And personally, I don't give a shit whether you are grieving or not. Take your ego elsewhere.

Hah bunny, sorry to X post and demonstrate so clearly that my panties are indeed in a twist smile.gif I know you didn't mean that we couldn't post angry stuff, I just thought it was ironic that you were so happy we were keeping a civil tone, and then I up and went all uncivil.


But I'm not sorry.

PPS -- after several other posts, including Bunny's I just wanted to mention that I also cross-posted wtih Raisin, and it made me appreciate that she was not trying to be hurtful, and while I can't help oozing hurt lately, I hope you know (Raisin) that I do understand how tremendously frustrating all of this can be.

PPPS -- I think some of the details in my post are too self-identifying, so I am XXXX some of them out (rather than erasing them, because for some reason I feel like that wouldn't be kosher. You can SO tell I am a lawyer because I have just redacted my post and provided you with an informal redaction log! This is quite embarassing. I'm going to go litigate something now.
bunnyb
(((faith))) I wasn't saying that kvetchies don't have the right to be upset, because they do, I was just trying to lighten the mood a little, reiterate why I love this thread and voice my admiration for raisingirl's post - she reacted to msp's post with maturity and an open mind, instead of feeling attacked and p'd off cos someone has a different opinion from her. It brings it home to me that BUST is a diverse community wub.gif.
sidecar
Grandpa Sidecar passed this morning, after arriving in hospice in the afternoon yesterday. I'm okay, a little sad, but okay. Thank you all for your thoughts and vibes. They mean the world to me.
sybarite
(((((Sidecar and family))))) I am glad you got to visit him throughout these last weeks. Take care, to you and your family.
msp
Sidecar, I'm so sorry for your loss.
bunnyb
(((Sidecar and family))) I am so sorry sweetie.
faith
(((sidecar and family))) RIP Grandpa Sidecar.
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