Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Perilous Position of Choice- news & updates
The BUST Lounge > Forums > The F-Word
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12
mornington
actually, the heart is the first organ to work - although it's not fully-formed - and that's what the ultrasound picks up. You don't see much of else... and at that stage, it doesn't matter whether it's human, dog or chicken, they all look pretty much the same. fuck's sake, it's still got a tail.

humanist, that's a great letter.

i think it's important because where the american fundies lead, more and more uk-based fundies want to follow. They've already tried to bring in the abstinence-pledge "ring thing", and the let's teach our kids "intelligent design" in schools thing, and there was muttering about lowering the abortion time-limit... It's just important to me to be aware. And as culture said, it's about women's rights around the world.
pollystyrene
QUOTE(prophecy_grrl @ Apr 27 2007, 03:27 PM) *
I know that abortion is a difficult decision for many women and I don't doubt that some may regret it or feel guilty (I would argue that the guilt is a social construct, but that's another conversation),


Relating to that, that's something that the professor on NPR talked about this morning, that prior to the early-mid 20th Century, being pregnant was a private, personal issue. Not private in a repressed, shameful way (though cod-knows the Victorians could make anything shameful!), just no one outside of the woman and her family had any vested interest in the baby before birth. It wasn't until more recently that being pregnant became an issue of the community. I'm sure that was construct of the anti-choice side- the whole "Won't somebody pleeeeaaasssee think of the children" mentality. And creating guilt for having an abortion was just part of that strategy.
culturehandy
polly, it's the complete opposite now. Anti-choicers only care about the child in utero, but once a woman gives birth, who cares about physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, child pornography, children in orphanages, trafficking, poverty, etc...

If these people well and truly cared about children, the abuse that is occuring could be prevented, or they could save children outside of the uterus. If they put half as much time and energy ito saving children already born and suffering atrocities, think of it!
faerietails2
humanist, that's a great letter. any chance i could convince you to send it to my hometown paper as well? (you get 300 words instead of 250!...)

the only letters i've seen printed since the supreme court dropped the bomb are "hilary clinton wants to kill babies. don't support her" letters. and of course, those letters were written by stupid men. ugh. i'm itching to write a response, but i've already sent in my letter for the month (unfortunately, right before the abortion ban).
crazyoldcatlady
QUOTE
polly, it's the complete opposite now. Anti-choicers only care about the child in utero, but once a woman gives birth, who cares about physical abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, child pornography, children in orphanages, trafficking, poverty, etc...


right on, culturehandy

QUOTE
I got an email from Planned Parenthood, asking to write a letter to newspapers across my state, so I typed up this one


very well-put letter, humanist



i just can't take this shit anymore. i feel a full blown rant coming on, but i'll try to taper it. i just can't be passive anymore; NARAL, NOW, PP, RAINN, they're all getting my money.

but anyway:
i see everyday the outcomes of pregnancies. pregnancy terminations, for personal or medical reasons. i see stillbirths for a variety of reasons. i've seen them at 10 weeks, i've seen them at 38 weeks. there's a big, big difference.

i rarely deal with the family directly, but i work closely with their clinicians. i read their notes. i know their medical histories, the reasons behind the termination or stillbirth. and i gotta tell you, one of the worst stories invovled a highly deformed cytogenetically aberrant fetus that by no means would survive in vivo, and a mother who, after finding this out at a certain week gestation, scheduled the next week for a termination. BUT because of her state's law, one more week would have prevented her from having a certain type of termination, and thusly she had to go with another, less optimal form. BASED ON A ONE WEEK DIFFERENCE.

lawmakers are not doctors, and they're being lobbied by people who aren't, or who are dubious MD's.
keep. your. laws. off. our. bodies.



okay.
i know this isn't as eloquent as i had hoped, but i'm getting pent up frustration with this whole supreme court thing.
humanist77
Thanks so much for the praise, gals-I've never been good at writing angry letters-to-the-editor. Is it too wordy-is it too obviously 'literary'? Would more 'casual' be better? Sorry, not fishing for compliments, but I've never felt up to par with this sort of thing.

faerietails-do you think they would care that I'm from chicago?
humanist77
If anyone has not read this on NARAL's site, here's what 'crazy' John McCain had to say about the ban:

"Today's Supreme Court ruling is a victory for those who cherish the sanctity of life and integrity of the judiciary. The ruling ensures that an unacceptable and unjustifiable practice will not be carried out on our innocent children. It also clearly speaks to the importance of nominating and confirming strict constructionist judges who interpret the law as it is written, and do not usurp the authority of Congress and state legislatures. As we move forward, it is critically important that our party continues to stand on the side of life."

"innocent children"??!! First of all, they are NOT "children". Secondly, he says this as if women who have abortions don't recognize that what they are aborting is 'innocent'-regardless, the fact that a fetus is 'innocent' is a moot point. He's only perpetuating the notion that pro-choicers are 'pro-abortion'.
"judges who interpret the law as it is written"
Tell me HOW did these judges interpret the law as written? By completely ignoring Roe v Wade, and furthermore, ignoring the clause about the exception for women's health? They blatantly IGNORED the written law.
"stand on the side of life"
Because pro-choicers stand on the side of DEATH.

The man is completely bonkers. I seriously think he's mentally ill and dangerous.
Reactions from all the other presidential candidates were there, I thought his was the most ludicrous.

I just made donations to Planned Parenthood and NARAL.
culturehandy
The sanctity of life? Ummm, what about the woman's life?

Every other private health matter between patient and doctor remains just that, private.
faerietails2
QUOTE
faerietails-do you think they would care that I'm from chicago?

nope! they publish letters from all over the place when they get them.

QUOTE
The sanctity of life? Ummm, what about the woman's life?

Every other private health matter between patient and doctor remains just that, private.

Agreed.

McCain is such a jackass. I can't stand him.
humanist77
ah...ignore function..that's so much better..

faerie, fabulous. I will send it.

shit. 'enaction' is not a real word. I changed it to "passing".
lapis
I have to admit, I am a little intrigued by the skewed notion of killing that gets deployed in these arguments. Are you killing something when you take it away from its power source? Would I be considered an "eye killer" if I removed my eye or a "lightbulb killer" if I unscrewed a lightbulb? What about taking a terminally sick person off life support, is that killing? When something is not viable and incapable of surviving on its own it seems a little inexact to call it killing. Whoops, I removed a tapeworm that can't find another host. We are forever obligated to house the bacteria, viruses and parasites infecting our bodies, because they would die without us. Why do we even wash? It's so draconian. Why take antibiotics? Infections deserve to live, too. Killing suggests a level of sustainability structured into the thing--a thing capable of being killed must have the capacity to survive on its own. And the fact is, no embryo can survive outside of its human host until 24 weeks. If a virtual forum ejected the vapid naysayers incapable of making a sustainable independent argument, those who suck off the energy of those who contribute to it in earnest would that constitute killing? If so, then I am all for it. Let's abort them! Kill kill kill!
Porn Star
QUOTE
I just made donations to Planned Parenthood and NARAL.

I know that NARAL sponsored the March for Women's Lives in 2004 and that this march was made in other years too. I want to know if this year was made this march because I didn't heard anything about this.
vesicapisces
Hi, y'all - I've been absent for a while, but with you in spirit smile.gif

Just got this article written by a woman who had to have the kind of procedure that's now banned. (I learned new things reading it, like some of the medical reasons why a regular abortion isn't the best option in some cases. Always best to have the facts at hand.) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18278305/site/newsweek/
culturehandy

I think I'm going to change my loacation to the altar of baby killing selfishness land! Hee.

I didn't realize that I had to carry a baby even if it meant I died. But, as long as a fetus lives, then what happens to a woman doesn't really matter. I'm just an incubator. And how could I be so selfish that I would not want to out a baby with no brain through birth? Gosh, women who have this procedure done because the fetus is already dead are such selfish bitches.

Here's what the government doesn't get. A woman just doesn't wake up one morning and say, gee, I'm six months pregnant, all is well, but I'm going to abort for the hell of it. This procedure is done because there is a legitimate reason and extreme risk in continuing on with the pregnancy.

Lapis, I adored your post.

I just came across This

Arcadia
A year before I was born my mother had to abort (who I consider to be) my older brother because he had a neural tube defect. It was horrible. I think she actually was induced into labour or something to "give birth" to him. I'm kind of unclear on the procedure that happened because she doesn't like to talk about it much. She still has nightmares about the whole situation and probably thinks about him every day, especially lately, it seems.

I don't know if I can have an opinion on this issue because I'm not American, but I definitely believe in every woman's right to choose. I feel that it is my body and my choice so why should I have someone or an entity (in this case, the U.S. government) who doesn't even know me make that choice for me? I'm not owned by anyone else, I'm owned by myself. I'm not just a number, as it seems that this implies.

I'm glad that in Canada we have a right to abortion, although with Harper I don't know how much longer that will last . . . .
culturehandy
*whispers* I reported the fundie, and as you can see the posts have been deleted.

arcadia, I agree about the scariness of harper, he idolizes Bushwhacked.
Arcadia
Fuck, don't even get me started on Harper.
Every time I look at him I think he's some sort of creepy child molester. His mouth is the freakiest thing I've ever seen.

Needless to say, Jack Layton is my choice. I don't know what it is but to me he's so appealing. I would love to have him running my country.

I'm just glad that - for now, at least - women in Canada still have the right to choose.
go_kayte
Long time no post, but I've been lurking. Especially in this thread. It feels better knowing there are women all over the country (and world) who share my disgust for this ruling.

Here's the letter I just got from my asshole congressman (Mike Rogers):

QUOTE("asshole")
Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 5151, the Freedom of Choice Act. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and concerns with me on this very important issue.

As you are aware, H.R. 5151 seeks to protect a woman's right to choose to bear a child or terminate a pregnancy. I believe that the right to life is the most basic of all rights and is not to be taken with governmental sanction unless the individual has received proper due process of the law. Clearly, unborn children who are deprived of life, via abortion, have not received such required due process. Furthermore, I believe that federal and state governments were established to protect our lives and the lives of the unborn. I believe an unborn citizen is to be guaranteed life by governmental authorities.

Again, thank you for your correspondence. If you have any further questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact my office.
culturehandy
go_kayte, oh dear. What a numbty.
erinjane
The CBC radio 1 was talking about abortion this morning on The Current. They were interviewing the woman who runs Women on Waves (http://www.womenonwaves.org/) and then chatted about the death of Justice Bertha Wilson (so sad) and the abortion rights of women in Canada. It was good stuff.
culturehandy
erin, that sounds really good. I'm upset that I missed it.
anarch
The Supreme Court's Split Decision to Uphold the Federal "Partial-Birth Abortion" Ban: Why, Despite the Court's Disclaimers, It Will Be Hugely Influential

just want to add kudos to you, humanist, for your letter. I think it reads beautifully.

go_kayte, what an infuriating letter from your MC.

Chart, by state, of cosponsors of the Freedom of Choice Act. Chart is from a pro-life site, sorry. I'm just posting it because I find it informative. They also have the text of the Act on one of their pages.

culturehandy, how do you report trolls? Thanks for doing it!



culturehandy
Anarch; at the bottom of every post there is a report button. I chose the one where that asshat said I was a selfish baby killer. It gets sent my PM to lounge lady. I just said that I thought the post was uncalled for and can anything be done.

That was also a fascinating article, but infuriates me even more that the courts are trying to tell a woman it doesn't matter if she is going to die, or the fetus is so ill that it is either already dead or that it will, without question, die. But fuck that, as long as you don't do anything that is in the best interest of everyone, who the hell cares. I suppose that women are nothing but incubators anyway.

erinjane
Culture, you can listen to it here: http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2007/200705/20070502.html

It's under Part 2.

QUOTE
Women on Waves

When it first set sail it rode a wave of controversy. A dutch abortion ship - as it's known - began plying the seas in 2001. At the helm was an organization called Women on Waves...a group dedicated to bringing access to abortion to women in countries where the procedure is illegal. And so the ship visited places such as Ireland, Poland and Portugal performing abortions in international waters.

But 3 years ago - due to lawsuits and restrictions by the Dutch government - the ship was forced to dock. Only now are the legal and bureaucratic wranglings over and the ship is set to sail once again.

To discuss whether it will be smooth sailing or stormy seas ahead, we were joined by Dr. Rebecca Gomperts. She is the founder of Women on Waves and she spoke to us from Amsterdam.


Canada and Abortion

While Dr. Gomperts won't be including Canada in her ports of call... it doesn't mean access to abortion is widely available in this country.

And with the passing this week of Madame Justice Bertha Wilson - we were reminded that in 1988 - the Supreme Court of Canada struck down Canada's abortion law as unconstitutional. Justice Wilson famously said that the law violated a woman's "right to life, liberty and security of the person".

Well almost twenty years later - it may come as a surprise to many Canadians, that some women in this country are still struggling to get access to safe abortions.

Daphne Gilbert is a charter specialist and Vice Dean of the English Common Law section with the University of Ottawa's Faculty of Law and she was in our Ottawa studio.
culturehandy
Erin, thanks much! I'll listen to it when I get home from work today.
Porn Star
QUOTE
Furthermore, I believe that federal and state governments were established to protect our lives and the lives of the unborn. I believe an unborn citizen is to be guaranteed life by governmental authorities.

I think that every person/ women is able to take a decision. I know that the government can't make you nothing as long as you didn't restrict someone else's life. I don't think that it's good to have a miscarriage but this is not a governmental issue. If a mother doesn't have the strength to rise him or the money why should she bring that kind in the world?...Just to make him suffer?
culturehandy
Sadly, I don't that think those who are anti-choice look at things quite the way that those who are pro-choice do. Those who are anti-choice look at things in terms of you are ending a life, it's murder, the end. No discussion, no ifs ands or buts.
humanist77
except most of these people are also pro-war and pro-death penalty.
culturehandy
which is even more fucked up.
humanist77
yes, and of course not to mention all the clinic bombings...which makes the least sense whatsoever.
culturehandy
It all makes perfect sense to me now! *bangs head against wall*

Maybe it is all some fucked up control, power issue. These people want the authority to say when a life should end, but that according to the bible, they have no control over things like that, and stuff is gods will? Wait, that still doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
anarch
QUOTE(Porn Star @ May 4 2007, 02:22 AM) *
If a mother doesn't have the strength to rise him or the money why should she bring that kind in the world?...Just to make him suffer?


Yeah, it must come from the idea that sex (especially premarital) is sinful, so women must "bear the consequences" as punishment. Also I think for other anti-choicers (I have a couple in my life who are genuinely well-meaning and support birth control and HIV research and so on), I get the impression that their "God will provide" attitude means they think that compared to the value of "human life" (as they define it - not just a cluster of cells, but potentially human equals something not to be terminated without grave reason), not enough money or less than ideal circumstances aren't enough reason to abort - because God will provide, etc. I certainly don't agree with this but I am starting to get a better sense of how TF some of them rationalize their positions.

Also I get the impression that so many of them think most women get abortions like haircuts, casually. I think in future discussions with them I'll hammer away on the point that they haven't got a clue how many women really do it casually and how many do it with much thought and grief and angst. How the hell could they? They're just going on the "pro-life" meme of a mythical high schooler getting an abortion because she can't fit into her prom dress any more. Maybe more women would talk about how UN-casual their motivations were, if the whole concept of "abortion" wasn't treated with shame contempt hostility and freakin' bomb threats.
anarch
more legal opinions on the implications of the "partial birth" abortion ban

& useful links in the metafilter thread itself, not just the title post







culturehandy
What a way to bring a child into the world. Unwanted. I work for social services and I see first hand what happens to unwanted to children.
Porn Star
QUOTE(culturehandy @ May 9 2007, 03:28 PM) *
What a way to bring a child into the world. Unwanted. I work for social services and I see first hand what happens to unwanted to children.

I think that this children will be unhappy for all there life. Just some of them will grow up as successful people.
culturehandy
I never said that children couldn't grow up to be successful, it is just I have seen some of the worst situations where children are unwanted and what happens to them...It's horrifying.
culturehandy
I read about this today.
thepointybird
News from the UK -

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article...ions/article.do

as if we didn't have enough to worry about.....
mornington
sigh.... sometimes, I wonder if I should have gone for medicine (despite my complete inability to watch casualty without gagging). Although I fully back the idea that learning how to perform abortions should be compulsory, or that nurses should be given the training as well.

what also saddens me is the number of comments going "hurrah".
erinjane
Did anyone else think the picture that accompanied that article was a little strange?
thepointybird
It IS kind of a weird picture, erinjane! What bugs me most about this story is that I don't even reckon it's a moral objection half the time - I think it's bloody laziness. Like the RCOG spokeswoman says - there's no money or glory in it, so why bother?
ginger_kitty
That is kind of a wierd pic for the article. I have a problem with doctors that refuse medical treatment based on personal beliefs/laziness. It shows a complete lack of compassion and ethics. Why did they get into medicine in the first place, it makes me wonder.
mornington
hurrah. someone's been giving our lot ideas... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6717947.stm

it sounds horribly, horribly familiar. Compulsory counselling and a week-long "cooling off" period.
culturehandy
possible mental health problems? Like being raped and being forced to carry a child doesn't cause mental problems.

At least the bill was defeated.

mornington
it wasn't ever intended to change the law, culture - more sort of making lots of noise and trying to convince people that pro-choicers are in the minority. The anti-choicers have been doing this for a while over here, usually a few weeks after a similar racket is made in the states.
culturehandy
Ah.

Still makes me irrate. REAL women here in Canada are just as nuts.
anarch
Culture, I have a vivid memory that when "REAL Women" started up, my mom read about them serving homebaked cookies to their (male, of course, esp at that time) MPs along with requests to kick women out of professional life and back into kitchens & bedrooms, or something, and how pleased and sympathetic the MPs were...Mom was so disgusted! "Of COURSE these men are sympathetic! Bringing them @#$%^&! cookies!"

Thanks for posting that, mornington. Good to keep tabs on how the fight's going in other places.
culturehandy
Ahhh real women, the pro-life feminists.

*head explodes*
Porn Star
QUOTE(mornington @ Jun 5 2007, 06:26 AM) *
hurrah. someone's been giving our lot ideas... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6717947.stm

it sounds horribly, horribly familiar. Compulsory counselling and a week-long "cooling off" period.


I don't understand....are you approving this news or not? In my opinion everyone should do what ever he wants with his life if is not interfering in someones else life.
ginger_kitty
This is a interesting article a friend sent me about one woman's choice to have an abortion:

http://lifestyle.msn.com/MindBodyandSoul/W...5719&page=1

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.