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Full Version: What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
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neurotic.nelly
If I may add to this convo, (mind you i am tipsy), is... big shit poppin' and lil' shit stoppin'!. I think it's fitting... I dunno...maybe I should stroll over to the inebriated ramblings thread... rolleyes.gif

But seriously, it is easy to be jealous of other women that are getting some when you aren't. But, as a woman, I can go out and get laid anytime I want, more easily than a man, now that doesn't mean that I will be fulfilled on an a deep level, but it does mean that I am busting one off. So, how can I be jealous? huh.gif It's just a preference, I prefer not to go out and get fuck, or I prefer to go out and get fucked. So, why be jealous? tongue.gif
culturehandy
In my experience, I have found that, on occasion, some people are threated by someone who goes out and does what they are want. they are threatened by the person who is independent and strong and what not. This is across the board. Seriously, think about the person who is doing two PhD's, someone somewhere will make an excuse about it, in terms that they will say cool, but they have no life because of the amount of work they have to do.
dj-bizmonkey
ch, i second that emotion.

I think even beyond the whole madonna/whore dichotomy-double standard issue, that men and some women by default, are seriously threatened by a woman's sexuality. In fact, up until the 19th century, in Western culture (correct me if I am wrong, any feminist historians) the general consensus was that women were the more wanton and lascivious sex, not men. Women were thought be an inexorably sexual being who had to be guided and controlled otherwise they would sleep with anything in sight. The victorians did a 180 and turned the image of women into this symbol of virtue and the embodiment of the purity of the home (a sphere that women in many middle-eastern countries were already occupying). Women's sexuality is dangerous because it undermines the power of patriarichal men. I think it also has its roots in our evolutionary history, but I'm not going to delve deeply into that.

The fact remains that the general population is threatened by sexually liberated women because they undermine the ideal that the system of patriarchy has espoused for at least the last 200 years. In order to maintain control and power, it is necessary to debase and defame the women who do not fit the mold.

and secretly, i'm pretty sure the uptight, puritanicals who are so concerned with the integrity of the status quo, are jealous of all the fun we are having too.
Pink Bat Maxine
QUOTE(snafooey @ Apr 24 2006, 06:15 PM) *
Homophobes Protest Tolerance Policies (fancy link wouldn't work b/c of the commas): <BR> <BR>http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-christians10apr10,0,6596503.story <BR> <BR>


Is it wrong of me, that on first reading, I read that as "Homophobes Protest Tolerance Fairies"?

I wanna be a Tolerance Fairy! smile.gif
i_am_jan
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah...it's like "I got that O...you got ZERO..."

Not hard to calculate what the problem is!

I agree ~ It is absolutely my experience that people are threatened by someone who goes out and does her own thing. And is not afraid to seek out experiences SHE wants. (Rather than sitting by and meeting OTHERS' needs for them like a good little lady.)

The freedom of an independent woman invalidates the choices of the gals who have been timid, not taken responsibility for going after what they want, have acted in ways society deems acceptable for them.

Yep, yep!

Also, i believe women judging other womens' sexuality has historically been a WAY TO BE COMPETITIVE OVER THE SUPPLY OF MEN.

Mm hm. She calls you a slut to tarnish your name. But as soon as she gets a chance with that hottie, you think she wouldn't bag that?

She's simply out of touch with her own sexuality. WHAT A SHAME!
ellievee
whether the cause is jealousy, or feeling threatened, or being sexually repressed, or something else - it shouldn't happen! women should stick together. instead of saying "what a slut!" we should shout "you go girl!"
greenbean
I've been called 'slut' in jest by girlfriends, and for the most part it doesnt bother me..but once one of my friends told me in all seriousness, "I couldnt do what you do (meaning, have casual sex), *I'd* be too worried about diseases." Jeeze, like I work in a brothel or something!

Something that reeeaallly bugs me happened to me today: the expectation that as women we are supposed to hate our bodies. So, I was having lunch with a coworker and we were talking fashion and I brought up that I hate the current style of empire waist dresses. I have a small waist and wide rib cage, so the style works against me, and I was telling her I cant wait for more waist-hugging dresses to come back in vogue. Soon we were joined by another coworker, and the first one goes, "You should of just heard greenbean going on about her 'AWESOME waist'" and snickers as the other coworker looks at me like, 'oh, you think yer so hot?'. Gah! So I start defending myself like, "No, I just meant some styles look bad on me..cuz I'm flat-chested, and boyish, and, wide-ribbed!!!" Ugg, and then I realized how sad it was that I felt I had to BASH on my body in order to stay 'in' with these ladies. like it was high school again. Fuck that. I wish I said, "yeah, it IS awesome."
i_am_jan
greenbean: That has been a huge problem for me as well. I have accepted my body. Like, a long time ago. It's not going to change already. It's ignorant to go on and on and on and on. But yeah ~ if you don't go with the program, it's actually like, offensive? to some women. They sound like assholes. But they WANT YOU TO JOIN. For whatever selfish reason.
erinjane
Ugh, I know how that goes, greenbean. I'm trying to hard to stay out of that self deprecating mode, but sometimes when you're with other women it's really hard.
mandolyn
i can't even finds the words to express how angry this makes me.

and if the fooking media "interview" any more "high paid call girls" or write any more "articles" about the "long-suffering wife standing by her man", i'm going to SCREAM. certainly with a scandal of this ironic magnitude, they can come up with actual facts and um, yeah .... news.
dj-bizmonkey
gag me. "Dr" Laura has a PhD in physiology and she is full of shit. cry me a river, cheating men, no matter how dejected your partner makes you feel, you should take it up with her and not a prostitute.

culturehandy
Dr. Laura is brainless have wit who needs to twiddle her own twat. Then maybe toss herself off a bridge.

So, did anyone hear how that man paid?

deschatsrouge
I wish there was an ignore function for the idiots and morons in my environment like that quack "Dr." laura.
nickclick
where the hell has Dr.Laura been hiding anyway? do they keep her in some coffin until they need to crazy up some talk show?
lilacwine13
QUOTE
I wish there was an ignore function for the idiots and morons in my environment like that quack "Dr." laura.


Word, deschatsrouge.

I don't know where she's been the past few years, nick. Probably dispensing "advice" on her radio show to poor, misguided souls who think she'll help.

All of this (and the presidential campaign) makes me want to give up and move to some remote corner of the world, with no radio, TV or internet.
vesicapisces
This makes me ill.
kinkaju
On the subject of how "women are expected to hate their bodies" I don't even know where to begin. The whole thing makes me sick to my stomach as well. Please excuse me, but I think I feel a rant coming on, and I thought this would be the place to do it.

One of the most recent things that has been bugging the crap out of me is whenever I see in a magazine or commercial or a store: "Real Women Have Curves" This makes me feel embarrassed and then enraged. I'm "full figured," "voluptuous," "plump,", "fat," or whatever you wanna call it, so I have my fair share of "curves" and so I know this ad slogan is aimed at me. The reason this "Real Women Have Curves" thing pisses me off is because I know it's intended to "make all us plump ones feel empowered and better about ourselves." Believe me, I am all about the idea of larger sized women feeling more empowered etc, etc... But I don't think this is a healthy message at all! By saying "real woman have curves," it completely dismisses and excludes every other kind of woman. What, so a thin woman is not a real woman? A woman with a straighter body or smaller chest is not a "real woman"?! Does having an athletic body means you're not "real?" What the fuck is that even supposed to mean!? And it makes me feel embarrassed because it just (in my opinion) reiterates the idea that we are all oh so secretly ashamed and unhappy with our bodies and we need the world to tell us we're big and beautiful, and how we're REAL women because we may have a bigger waistband and how we desperately want to look like Celebrity A.

I see it every day. The world expects that we naturally hate our bodies and hate all other women because we're jealous. It's just not true! I've got a complex over this... like I feel compelled to say negative things about my body because it's the norm, apparently. Nobody is perfect, including myself, and I have days where I feel ugly and unhappy with my appearance, but then there are the days when I look in the mirror and think, hey, I look pretty damn hot today <strut>. Of COURSE there are times when I feel envious about someone else's figure, fashion, hairstyle, lifestyle, etc... but I don't think any woman should be judged and labeled as more/less "real" than the next. It really bothers me that I feel we as females are often pitted against one another unfairly. Any person who is an adult female is a REAL WOMAN, regardless of size.
edie52
Kinkaju- thank you! We've talked about the "real women have curves" thing a lot in the small breast support group thread. It's also interesting to hear how it makes you feel, as it as aimed at you. And unfortunately, almost every woman has some kind of complex about her body. Thin women women want more curves and get breast (or even ass) implants. Thinner or average sized women often still hate their tummies and thighs; we wonder why the fat doesn't go to the "right places." Beautiful, already too-thin models starve themselves literally to death.

And how about Chloe Marshall, the new Miss England, who is "full-figured," as the media would say. One interviewer (I forget for which publication) tried to get her to admit to hating her body and being jealous of skinny girls. Um, girl is gorgeous. Period. Of course she's also aware that she's not the typical beauty pageant contestant, and she seems willing to talk about that. She seems really together for 17.
kittenb
Rape is like being force fed chocolate cake.

I mean to say this w/o sarcasm but I think it is going to be awhile before I can eat chocolate cake. I really want to hurt this fucker.
damona
i actually gagged on that. that is about the most horrible thing i have ever heard. i wasn't raped by my husband, but by a "friend", someone whom i had had a sexual interest in. it was still a frightening, scarring experience. that guy is just sick.
mornington
ah, the British National Party. a bunch of racist, xenophobic, bigoted, sexist, violent thugs masquerading as a political party. That particular individual is a prime example...

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/04/london_assembly
dusty
And why the fuck *wouldn't* force-feeding a woman chocolate cake be a heinous offence?
deschatsrouge
I couldn't read all the way through that, it made me gag.
knorl05
sorry if this isnt the right thread for this... i wasnt sure where else to put it (please redirect if necessary). have to vent about my night last night!

picture this:

two attractive women sitting at the bar, having conversation among themselves.

two very drunk men walk up to them, interrupt the obvious two-way conversation, then proceed to insult the women because they didnt respond favorably to the guys' drunken introductions.

woman 1 gets annoyed and tells "man" 1 off, letting him know that his behavior is completely unacceptable.

"man" 1 accuses woman 1 of being a lesbian.

i mean. are you kidding me?! some guys just dont get it!!! and i was sure to let him know what an ignorant DICK he was being, and then he let me know i'd "never get anyone, not even a woman". seriously. i should have socked him one.

ps. kinkaju: right on!!
dusty
And where 'zackly was the bartender and the bouncer?
vesicapisces
Kinkaju - hear, hear. While I appreciate the underlying "curves are normal" sentiment, it's just another example of how competition between women is fostered.
dusty
Its Vesicapisces! I'm older'n you!
kittenb
knorl - that is one of the situtations that we use when training new volunteers about the Rape Culture. Men are trained that all women are available to them, as visual stimula if nothing else. And if the woman turns them down, all the men seem to think that the women deserve whatever abuse is thrown at them (this is of course a generalization. Many men are capable of overcoming their socialization.)
As for the assumption of the girls being lesbians, my boss, who is a lesbian, always says that straight women hand there lesbian sisters out to dry when we first respond, "I'm not gay." I'm not saying that you said that, I just bring it up b/c that used to be my first response in that kind of situation.

I'm sorry that you had such a rough night. Drunk guys are the worst. sad.gif
knorl05
dusty: it was a brewery so no bouncer, but the bartender and the lingering patrons just watched. which was fine, because i wanted to tell him what was up.

kittenb: that's very interesting, because it is so true. when a (typical) male's ego is bruised, he lashes out. the point i was trying to make to him, is that he wasnt invited to come talk to us. i thought he should take responsibility in the situation.. but of course he didnt. it angered me when he said i was a lesbian not because i have any problem with my homosexual tendencies, but because it was the typical male response to rejection. i told him whether or not i was gay was not the issue, the issue was that he was rude and intrusive and insulting. he couldnt see it. i'm still angry just thinking of it. bah. but tis over. thanks so much for the feedback!
dj-bizmonkey
knorl, i was JUST talking about this situation with my mom. we saw something similar happen, though it was with a waitress and some drunken patrons. what is even more upsetting to me is that evolved, intelligent men (like my bf or my dad) just don't get it. they have no idea what it's like to walk around with a pair of tits and a set of hips. my bf always says, 'well why couldn't you just tell him to fuck off?' like it's that simple?!! it makes me want to say, 'hmm, maybe because i don't want to be raped and murdered on the way to my car, or be called a man-hating feminazi and get a drink thrown in my face!' especially working as a waitress (or a bartender, or a stripper for that matter!) you have to do this delicate dance (if you want to get paid and not shit on) between gently shooting a man down without making him feel like he's been rejected so he won't react in a violent or dangerous way. it's bullshit! why should we have to treat them like babies and look out for their poor little feelings when we're the ones being victimized and abused? it makes me think of a quote from gavin de'becker's novel, 'the gift of fear,' (which is a great read if anyone is interested). he said that deep down, men's primordial fear is that women will laugh at them, while women's greatest fear is that men will kill them. that's pretty telling.
knorl05
dj biz: so so true! completely. especially because i have had the role of bartender/waitress as well. "why should we have to treat them like babies and look out for their poor little feelings when we're the ones being victimized and abused?" awesome question. i used to get so frustrated (which is also probably why i lashed out at that guy last week) because i couldnt say anything for fear of even losing my job. we're always just supposed to take it, no matter what role we are in. luckily in a more professional setting it's more frowned upon, but that dynamic is still there. it's the everpresent way men learn to interact with women. and right, if we get upset over it we risk them being completely rude and disrespectful - or worse - just for speaking our minds. that last line of your post gave me *chills*..

(edit: i've worked in a variety of settings. typically in shit hole bars, or bars that get the regulars and locals, there's a certain level of priority given to ones who spend the most money. not that these men -or women even- are abusive or rude necessarily but the odds are greater that they will say and do things that are inappropriate just because they can. and they can because any complaint i would have is primarily the result of my sensitivity and perspective; any other person may be fine with such treatment.)
dusty
I think the management of the venue has a responsibility to protect you from that kind of abusive behaviour. I don't think you should be paying good money to be talked to like that

I live in a fantasy world, yo.
anarch
not sure where to put this metafilter post, but it seems most appropriate somewhere in F-word, so I'm putting it here because some people may find it interesting. Warning for survivors, though - lots of triggers.

"Joanna Connors, a theatre critic, was raped on an empty stage. She tells her story in vivid, lucid detail-- then traces her rapist's twisted family history. One of the best pieces of journalism-- or writing, for that matter-- I've read for ages. Lots of resources for survivors and their families, as well."

I haven't actually read the article itself, just the metafilter discussion, which had lots of thoughtful comments and some women shared their stories as well. I'll get around to reading Connors's article at some point but from what some of the comments say, I think I'll have to work up the nerve first to open that link. (Or make sure I'm feeling stable and that there's a good friend around to hug afterwards, or something.)
ScarlettMeyers
i find it so infuriating that my male coworker says to me,
"what a surprise, once a chick gets promoted she instantly becomes a bitch"
uh, what? i mean come on! i never even bossed him around! i didn't even rub it in his face or provoke him. he thinks the only reason he didnt get the job is because he was a year younger than me. he doesn't even relizes i had worked there 10 months longer than he did. i gave him no reason to call me a bitch. he dismissed me when he needed a manager and asked for the other male manager. said it was "over my head"... the other manager on the other hand is very cool, he actually said to him to ask me for help because he assured the little prick that i could handle it

i'm thankful but it also pisses me off that a guy needed to validate me to my coworker. if i wasn't good enough i wouldn't have been promoted in the first place
LoveMyPugs
two things...

first let me say that this internship i got for the summer is at a company that is 90% men to 10 % women.
second the men are mostly 50 + years in age

So yesterday I'm helping this technician replace a few parts on this big instrument. we both have our heads crammed in this machine trying to tighten these bolts that we can't even see and he drops his wrench. he says, "Shit I dropped the wrench." So being as I have little hands I was able to get down in this whole and get this wrench. I hand it to him and he says, "Aww good girl!" Good girl? WTF? I'm not your daughter so a "Thank you." or "Nice work." would have been just fine.

Also, this huge fucking 350 lb fat dude in the lab announced right to my and a female coworker's face that life is a bitch and then you marry one. Excuse me? We'll all men are dicks and when is the last time you saw your's? Turtle dick motherfucker.

I guess this is what I have to look foward to as a young 26 year old female entering a male dominated field? It's sad that we still have to put up with shit like this is 2008.
ScarlettMeyers
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ May 31 2008, 08:22 AM) *
two things...

first let me say that this internship i got for the summer is at a company that is 90% men to 10 % women.
second the men are mostly 50 + years in age

So yesterday I'm helping this technician replace a few parts on this big instrument. we both have our heads crammed in this machine trying to tighten these bolts that we can't even see and he drops his wrench. he says, "Shit I dropped the wrench." So being as I have little hands I was able to get down in this whole and get this wrench. I hand it to him and he says, "Aww good girl!" Good girl? WTF? I'm not your daughter so a "Thank you." or "Nice work." would have been just fine.

Also, this huge fucking 350 lb fat dude in the lab announced right to my and a female coworker's face that life is a bitch and then you marry one. Excuse me? We'll all men are dicks and when is the last time you saw your's? Turtle dick motherfucker.

I guess this is what I have to look foward to as a young 26 year old female entering a male dominated field? It's sad that we still have to put up with shit like this is 2008.



lol, i've gotten a 'good girl' from my friend at work and 3 seconds after he said it he came back and said, "ummm... sorry, i hope that didn't offend you, i didnt mean it that way" haha ... i thought nothing of it anyway. i can understand your frustration though. i'm really offended by the 'lifes a bitch' thing mostly. its fucking stupid that sexism is still ignored and sort of accepted.
obelix2
My company has two main departments, "Before" and "After" is the easiest way to describe it. Most of the Before department (in the basement) are men. Up until a year ago, the entire After department (right above them) was female. The two parts are equal, in terms of education and money brought into the company.

We all know that one of the owners absolutely can not deal with women at all. When working with him, we in the After department keep in our minds this tidbit: While working with some men in the Before department a few years ago, he asked "You guys are making copies?" He waved at the ceiling, "Just have the girls upstairs do that."

Most of us "girls" have an MS in Zoology, Statistics, Chemistry, Toxicology, etc.
treehugger
oh, I could tell you stories....

once I was working on a guy's booster coil (he was an office guy) and I was up on a ladder working in the ceiling. I disconnected a pneumatic line (air tubing) and I was close to the fluorescent fixture (they are 220 volt here at UW)...he made it a point to say, "be careful there, little lady, that light can BITE you!"

I've ONLY been doing this kind of work for fourteen years. I went through a 5 year apprenticeship...longer than he went to college, I imagine.

I decided then and there that any future service calls to that room go right to the bottom of my list.

The office women are cool though...I've left several times, offices full of women to go get a part and stood a ladder or something in the corner (I always ask for permission) and typically come back to find candy or cookies on the rungs. smile.gif
ellenevenstar
Hideous and frightening. "Selling like wildfire," eh?
My mother-in-law came back from Fiji with a bikini for her 2-month-old granddaughter - (my niece).
girltrouble
vesca, i think i just puked in my mouth....no, wait, all over my livingroom.

that is just revolting....

QUOTE
Nice way to sexualize these girls before they even climb out of their cribs.



why do i feel the need to blame sex&the city's obsession with manolo b's?
kittenb
There is a new movie called Donkey Punch. Donkey Punch?!

I cannot judge it for artistic merit b/c I avoid horror/slasher films for the most part but OH MY GOD! the freaking trailer almost gave me a panic attack.

It seemed way to close to a bad day at work for me to ever enjoy as a film.
girltrouble
the super, super, super fucked up stuff that mccain has said about women just keeps on coming.......and the mainstream media steadfastly refuses to report it.

over the last day or so, a rape joke involving and ape he told in the 80's surfaced, (i posted about it in the sufferagette's thread here.) and more recently this little bon mott:
QUOTE
Said McCain, chuckling, "And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago."

Some have found the subject of McCain's joke -- wife-beating -- inappropriate.

hmmm... you think? i understand he was eluding to a fictional leading question, "When did you stop beating your wife, senator?" a joke that from, the article on abc's website is oft used in washington (which explains a fuck of a lot). in additon to calling his wife a cunt, i wonder why there is a reluctance to put this on the airwaves. should we not know this "man's" view of women?

is there any doubt this would be all over the place if obama said this? after all he called a reporter sweetie, and caught hell for it, but cunt, rape and abuse jokes just don't rate? WTF?!
neurotic.nelly
You see, this is a classic example of white male privilege. Let Obama even think about saying something like this and it'd be over. McCain is a dunce, but you know Bush was a bigger asshat, soooo, they put up with McCain's antics.
starship
Gah
what crap
kittenb
Starship, that article made me gag. It is too early for me to be this nauseated!

Seriosly, though, so often when I see something telling me how to be "more feminine" it always comes down to me spending money.

This means something.
cecilia
That article is downright insulting. And I love how you can't rub just any body cream on, it has to be "really expensive" body cream. Gag.
lilacwine13
So, where's the equally insulting article for men that says they have to spend big bucks to be more "masculine" and "hard" to attract a woman?

Oh yeah, they aren't supposed to worry about that... dry.gif
vesicapisces
I guess I forgot to make sure my skin was soft because I was too busy working against the patriarchy. So sorry.
girltrouble
listen to the way these guys treated her:
QUOTE
Two years ago I went to dinner with a doctor who told me that I 'wasn't in touch with my femininity' as I 'didn't flirt or wear much make-up'.

His diagnosis also included the undeniable fact that I was in 'acute need of affection'.

The last straw came four months ago when I had dinner with a successful, high-profile entrepreneur who literally screamed at me that I was 'so in control it was scary' - although he did backtrack when I dropped my head towards my plate and started sobbing.

As well as being hurt, I was shocked and outraged.

no wonder she ws in acute need of affection. the assholes she's dating are actively working to destroy her self-esteem. the issue isn't you lady, it's the pricks you're dating.

ok, this issue is her, in that she wants to date guys who treat her like shit, then beat herself up for it.

then there's this little chestnut:
QUOTE
Working full-time, making every decision, paying every bill, driving myself everywhere, booking tickets for holidays, lugging the Christmas tree in - it's all completely de-feminising.

so wait... working full time isn't feminine? booking tickets for the holidays isn't feminine? that lady needs to check her head, cos from where that list is heading, the only thing that is feminine, is being helpless. fuck that noise.

and wait...
QUOTE
there is nothing less sexy than enforced femininity. Femininity is all about being relaxed with yourself.'


well fuck. you just undercut the whole article.


just as well considering it was crap anyways.
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