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alligator
Anarch: what kmp and tyger said. Also, saying that makes it sound like women are the only ones responsible for or capable of reducing chances of rape.

Well, hang on. I'm saying that in the context of it being understood that men have to do their part as well.

If a guy wants to tell women that, he has to step up to the plate too and say what HE does to reduce chances of rape – eg talk with guy friends about “How do I know for sure she's ok with it? How can I make sure I don't cross the line? How can I encourage other guys to do likewise?", and being willing to tell other guys “That's not cool” (like hoosierman78's crowd) when they're disrespecting women. Otherwise the effect is that he could come across as a hypocrite (not saying you personally are, but that's the impression that could be created, if you see where I'm coming from).

I avoid being a hypocrite on this issue the same way I do on any other matter of conduct; I hold myself to the same standards as others.

I have had such conversations as you mentioned with other men, although anyone in my circle of friends is a pretty low risk to women (or anyone) because I wouldn't associate with them otherwise.

My dad/uncle/elder cousins/etc never needed to have a "Now son, no means no" chat with me for the same reason they never had to warn me against eating aquarium gravel for breakfast. Alas, too many guys could've used just this kind of talk...
greenbean
I agree that it would be soooo helpful (and perhaps revolutionary) for men to have this discussion with other men and boys. I think (western) men and women can all agree that a stanger grabbing and forcing sex on a woman in a parking lot is rape, but we can't seem to agree on what makes date rape.

I think a lot has to due with the guy's grip. I my case with Joe, that was the difference. I had made-out with plently of boys before him, drunk boys even, but I never had felt scared until this experience with Joe. I wish I was brave enough to talk about the situation to his older brother, tell him that Joe needs to learn how to treat a girl. Unforch, the whole situation just embarrassed me and I havent seen either guy since. I can only hope that Joe was just being a dumb, drunk kid, and never forced anything on a girl again.

Similiarly, my best friend considers her first time having sex to be date rape--not in the legal sense because she never said "no"--but in the sense that he tightly held her wrists above her head the whole time. Like me she was very confused. She liked this guy and she knew he (and their high school) expected that sex follows a date, yet she felt like it wasnt her decision. Again, this wouldnt count as rape in court, but it was damaging to her nonetheless.

Good job with Metafilter, Anarch! This is a very important topic and I hope the discussion (on here and there) remains healthy. To the men on here: it means sooo much that you guys are willing to explore this issue. Please pass on tips to your friends/sons/brothers. A good tip would be: "Unless the girl asks you to play rough, never hold her in a tight grip. Besides, don't you want her hands free to caress your back or run her fingers through your hair?"
anarch
alligator: I'm saying that in the context of it being understood that men have to do their part as well.

Thing is, I don't think it IS generally understood that men have to do their part as well. Because I've never heard media stories about it, and never heard men volunteer information about it, IRL or on discussion boards when the topic of “women need to be more careful” comes up. You and hoosierman78 have told us, in response to my and other Busties' posts, what you do, and it was cool to read that you both have talked about these issues in your circles. Thank you for that and for saying so in here. I'm glad to have you on our side. There probably are way more men than I realize who, like you, hold yourselves and your friends to a high standard of conduct.

Maybe I underestimate how many men do this because I never hear about it from them, or from news stories. Doing is critical, like you alligator and hoosierman78. It seems to me that talking about what you do, whenever you hear about rape in news stories or IRL or on discussion boards, not just with girlfriends but with guy friends or girl friends or family too, would maximize the impact of what you already do. You don't say how often these conversations happen, but I'm guessing not as often as there are news stories about rape and how women should protect themselves (I'd be happy to be corrected).

If more men talked about what they do, as often as we hear about those news stories targeting women's responsibility, wouldn't it spread the word that hey, here's a cool guy who doesn't put up with that shit from the people in his life, and he's not embarrassed to talk about important things? Wouldn't it let people who look up to you know that it's ok to talk about rape or “forced sex” (not the same thing in a lot of guys' minds, and that's something else that needs airing) or that it's hard to figure out grey areas and where the line is that shouldn't be crossed? And make the high standards you hold yourself to, crystal clear for people not only in your circles but those who are lurking (many of whom may have much lower standards you do)?

Doing what you do is effective. It seems to me that talking about what you do, as often as talking about what women can do, spreads that effectiveness out to many many more people.

I avoid being a hypocrite on this issue the same way I do on any other matter of conduct; I hold myself to the same standards as others.

Me, too. I agree you're not a hypocrite. I apologize for expressing myself poorly. My thinking was to suggest one possible explanation for why a lot of women may react strongly to men advising them to be more careful – misinterpretation of your position as a result of having too little information about how you personally contribute to creating a culture of respect for women, and too little emphasis (none, really) in media stories on how men generally also can contribute to reducing chances of rape occurring.

Of general interest: another poster on Metafilter linked to a Daily Kos discussion from October, debating whether all men are capable of rape. She (& I) likes this comment best.

Greenbean, I just hope I'm able to phrase the questions so as to get constructive responses. Having your and other Busties' and Busters' posts, to draw on, and those of other Metafilterites who've been building these ideas too, is humbling and inspiring. /very grateful to have meeting of minds with you all!
nohope
NoHope, do you really think the solution is to have female only bars? One of my big issues with that article was the insinuation that since we probably won't be able to change male behavior, women ought to just suck it up and not get drunk, not go party, b/c really, we ought to know better. And so...you know, rape is sort of our fault. And while we're not drinking or partying, we should probably cover up and stop flirting with men, b/c everyone knows that if you flirt, you're really just asking for it. When are people (outside of this board of course) going to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of men, and telling women to stop "putting themselves in dangerous situations" is a bandaid. How about, men, stop endangering women? And I think your much earlier point is absolutely true. There ought to be some equally life threatening incentive put forth for men, since some of them can't seem to come up with the motivation themselves. Ugh.

kissmypineapple – I think it is one part at least of a solution. But I think what I said before is also an important part of a solution. The what I was responding to was the insinuation in the article that one group of feminists saying women should be allowed to do anything a man does and another group of feminists saying men are intrinsically dangerous being mutually exclusive ideas. However the truth is that these are not mutually exclusive. The answer to rape is not women staying at home, but rather women forcing society to change the social contract.

In the short term I think we have to acknowledge that men will remain dangerous and when alcohol is involved doubly so. So the short-term answer must include safe space….

The point (mine and many other Busties'), Nohope, is that changing most peoples' frame of reference, currently fixated on the narrow mantra "to prevent rape it's up to individual women to be more careful", would ultimately pre-empt any need for creating female-only safe spaces.

anarch – I don’t see how there is any time to pre-empt. We are talking about current crises that require a current solution. While we work at changing our social relations, I think women deserve to have spaces in which they can be safe to live the same lives as men and enjoy the same opportunities as men. Safe not just from rape, but also from the fear of being raped.



hoosierman78
Anarch - Honestly, this topic of conversation doesn't come up all that much with me these days, mostly due to the fact that I spend most of my time at work, and what's left I spend with my wife and renovating our house. My lone day is Wednesday when I have my company golf league. During this time, the topic of rape comes up mostly when there is a high profile case on the news and for the most part, all the guys are on the same page I am. There are a few that are skeptical of the victim's story, but throw in an 'if he did it, he should (insert cruel and unusual punishment here). One thing we all agree on is rapists should have bodily parts cut off with a dull, rusty knife. That's just how it is here. Oh, and did I mention that I work for a construction company? Yes, most of these guys are 'manly men', but when it comes down to it, will tolerate absolutely zero abuse of women. Even when the Duke case came out, there are some that question the story of the victim, but that's more due to the light the media has put the case in, and all agree that judgement should wait until all evidence is shown at trial. Like Alligator, I guess I just don't associate with boys (I refuse to call them men, they are not) that think it's ok to force their will on women.
In college, the topic came up quite often, both when just the guys and when in mixed company. Again, everyone I hung out with pretty well felt the same way in regards to rapists.
I really don't get how people can be so clueless. Besides, I just don't see the enjoyment factor in raping a woman. Sex with a willing and active partner would have to be better than with someone passed out drunk or someone that is being pinned down completely against their will.
katiebelle2882
um female only bars? thanks but no thanks. unless i am a lesbian, it kind of defeats the purpose of me going to a bar unless i am on a girls night out. why should we have to change our behavior bc men are ridiculous?
anarch
drive-by posting of
AskMetafilter link. At first I thought I'd wait to see if the discussion was any good, but I decided some people might want to watch it unfold. There's been one stupid hostile comment already but I'll do my best to deter derailings. (can't mind the thread for about 4 hours tonight though, so if you're inclined to join Metafilter, feel free to jump in if the discussion needs guiding)
alligator
A good tip would be: "Unless the girl asks you to play rough, never hold her in a tight grip. Besides, don't you want her hands free to caress your back or run her fingers through your hair?"

Another good one: When you're about to cross the line from cuddling/making out/etc. into actual sex, look her in the eyes and ask her point-blank if that's ok with her. If you get anything other than a genuine, enthusiastic "Yes," there's something wrong or something she's not telling you. Zip it up, splash some water on your face and (nicely) ask if anything is wrong.
alligator
Tip For Guys, #2: When you're making a new female acquaintance (date, heavy date or whatever), neither of you should get stone drunk. Even if she's up for the experience, it's just a bad idea for many reasons. It is the very nature of booze to destroy your judgment and self-control. Save the plastering for when you both know and can reasonably trust each other.
anarch
Fantastic, alligator. ok with you if I cut & paste your words into the AskMetafilter discussion? attributed to "a guy on another discussion board," because I don't want to link back here - I feel like Bust is a safe space and Metafilter is public, usually safe, but ofte subject to crap that I don't want to bring into Bust.
greenbean
*drive-by*
--Good job, alligator!
--Anarch--thanks for keeping Bust safe! Those MetaFites can get belligerent!
--Nohope--I've thought about female-only bars myself but the idea isnt very exciting. We girls like to meet guys and we would like to trust guys. Can you imagine if every bar and party you went to was all guys, because us chicks were too afraid of rape? Not a pretty picture.
anarch
well, the post was deleted for breaking the AskMetafilter guidelines - too "chatty", meaning too open-ended, with no clearly-defined answer possible. I disagree, but whatever. The rules say I can't post again for a week. If one of the cool posters in the original thread decides to rephrase it better and post it, I'll let you guys know.

Thanks for the cool discussion here. I heart you.
alligator
Cut & paste away, should the option (re)occur.
greenbean
Anarch--I read some of the MeFi stuff and I was quite pleased how most posters view the topic. Some posts though, were a bit defensive but I think some guys get a bit defensive about the topic because they are afraid of the stereotypical feminist (a man-hater) and they fear that we think "all men are either pigs or rapists!"

This is soooo not true. I know many feminists and NONE are man-haters. Even the lesbian friends I have generally like guys. If anything this rape topic makes me re-appreciate the men in my life, and makes me re-swoon for all the guys who I've hooked up with who let me call all the shots. Joe was the only one who ignored my "messages", and I guess sometimes-- not as the cliche goes but--it takes one bad apple to realize how good the other apples are.

(ok, I guess this is a bit to touchy-feely for an "outrage" thread, so sorry if its a derail...)
battygurl
I think I would appreciate the option of women-only bars, because I go out a lot not to meet people (male or female), but just to have fun dancing. Of course, I would far prefer it if I could go to a mixed bar and not have my ass grabbed/people who think if I dance with them I want to go home with them/unwanted attention in general.
Also, I think that "women only" could be problematic. How are we defining women? It seems to me like every time we try to restrict something by gender we end up leaving out someone who doesn't fit into the binary gender system.
nohope
um female only bars? thanks but no thanks. unless i am a lesbian, it kind of defeats the purpose of me going to a bar unless i am on a girls night out. why should we have to change our behavior bc men are ridiculous?

katiebelle2882 - by "defeat the purpose" you mean its hard to enjoy a good drink with out guys around?

Back a few years ago I was single and I would post here at bust but mostly at Roboticjesuse were I had basically a blog about my drunken escapades and misogynist dark side which every now and then included a girl who would make the unfortunate error of hitting on me and how I would humiliate them or myself or a combination of the two. That fact is I like to go out and drink. I even liked to go out and dance. I like to drink in crowded bars, and I like to be left alone both when I drank and when I danced.

If there is a reason I don�t go to �gay bars� it is precisely because guys (not gays) think it�s their job to �hunt� for mates. And I think most people have this totally irrational idea that bars are places to meat people. (you decide whether that was intentional or not) But the truth is most people who go out drinking go home drunk. And therefore the inevitable conclusion is that bars, despite all preconceived ideas, are really there for one purpose and one purpose alone, to push alcohole. If you are going to a bar for any other reason you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now the fact that violence against women usually includes alcohol use does not excuse the violence or the violator, but it should act as a general worming to any one who is involved with alcohol, especially when mixing that with men, that whether you are a man or a women, you have a greater chance of being a victim of violence by a man when alcohol is present than when it is not.

Truth be told men have a high chance of being violently attacked without justification by women, as I have been on at least been on one occasion, when alcohol is present.

So I will give the advice v- gave me, which I thought was sound, if you want to meet a rational, caring, respectfull partner, try going to a coffee shop.

I just didn�t want to meet people at the time she gave me the advice, but that is a different story.

--Nohope--I've thought about female-only bars myself but the idea isnt very exciting. We girls like to meet guys and we would like to trust guys. Can you imagine if every bar and party you went to was all guys, because us chicks were too afraid of rape? Not a pretty picture.

greenbean- yeah, and if it meant that women were safer, Id prefer that they stayed away from the combination of men and alcohol. It certainly is better than if every bar and party I went to was full of girls, despite because us chicks were too afraid of rape?

Also, I think that "women only" could be problematic. How are we defining women? It seems to me like every time we try to restrict something by gender we end up leaving out someone who doesn't fit into the binary gender system.

Battygurl- I agree that is an interesting and troubling problem. And one which I think at least for me demonstrates the weakness of feminism. And feminism potential for sexism, and reinforcement of patriarchal constructs.

tyger
nohope, while you're always eloquent and you have thought out your arguments, i really have to disagree with you. almost all of my friends are male; therefore, if my friends and i want to go to a bar, a female-only bar would be useless. i don't go to bars to meet men, but that doesn't mean that nobody should do it. you are simply stepping around the fact that while it is up to me to be safe, there are reasonable boundaries. like, i shouldn't need a special place to socialize with liquor present because some drunken men don't understand the rules of being a decent human being.
katiebelle2882
like i said nohope, if its a girls night out, then fine all-women bars are ok by me. however, not only do i have FAR more guy friends than girlfriends (something i have a feeling is a fact for many many busties if not most), but i like to go to bars and chat with all types of people. men, women etc. i also like to go to bars to see if i may meet a guy etc etc. i dont go to bars to enjoy "a good drink", i go for the company. if i am explicitly hanging out with girls that night then i dont care. but since most of my friends are guys (a huge reason is that i get along better with guys-hence me being a busty to find like minded women that are hard to come across) and i like meeting guys at bars i think i should be able to hang out at a "co-ed" bar without fearing for my safety b/c men presumably cant control themselves. thats completely ludicrous to even suggest such a thing.
katiebelle2882
and i would like to point out that while going to bars may not be the "best" place to meet a boyfriend/girlfriend, neither are coffee shops, as i find them to be chock full of pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals looking bored. furthermore, that kind of implies that decent, intelligent men dont go to bars.

also i would like to point out, sometimes, i just want to get laid, i am not going out with the intention of meeting the love of my life ya know.
greenbean
I have more guy friends too!
Another thing, I've hung out at lesbian bars before, and some lesbians can be just as seedy as men! (i.e, holding on to your waist as they pass thourgh the crowd)
The point is it should be a choice. If I dont feel like socializing at a bar, then I stay home. I know what is a dangerous situation and I choose if I will risk it or not.
The same goes for guys, for instance, there has been a rash of muggings in my neighborhood this year and two men have been killed by the muggers. Does that mean no men are walking the streets at night? On the contrary I still see men out at night, eventhough they know its not safe.
nohope
nohope, while you're always eloquent and you have thought out your arguments, i really have to disagree with you. almost all of my friends are male; therefore, if my friends and i want to go to a bar, a female-only bar would be useless. i don't go to bars to meet men, but that doesn't mean that nobody should do it. you are simply stepping around the fact that while it is up to me to be safe, there are reasonable boundaries. like, i shouldn't need a special place to socialize with liquor present because some drunken men don't understand the rules of being a decent human being.

tyger- but my point has to do with the choices available to you to be safe. Yes it is the responsibility of men to be decent human beings. But in face of men not being so, society should offer equitable alternatives for women. The article to which my proposal was a response seemed to say that women should simply remove themselves from public space in order to secure their safety. I on the other hand am simply saying that the feminist arguments they used to make this point actually point to another alternative, that being not the removal of women from the commons but making at least some parts of the commons safe space. I.e. women only bars. Not that you should be compelled to go there and driving from bars in which men drink, but rather that you deserve the option instead of being told that the reason you are raped is because you are violating nature by entering male spaces. The article almost implies that it is the bars which cause women to be raped and not the men in the bars.

like i said nohope, if its a girls night out, then fine all-women bars are ok by me. however, not only do i have FAR more guy friends than girlfriends (something i have a feeling is a fact for many many busties if not most), but i like to go to bars and chat with all types of people. men, women etc. i also like to go to bars to see if i may meet a guy etc etc. i dont go to bars to enjoy "a good drink", i go for the company. if i am explicitly hanging out with girls that night then i dont care. but since most of my friends are guys (a huge reason is that i get along better with guys-hence me being a busty to find like minded women that are hard to come across) and i like meeting guys at bars i think i should be able to hang out at a "co-ed" bar without fearing for my safety b/c men presumably cant control themselves. thats completely ludicrous to even suggest such a thing.

katiebelle2882 - Firstly most women in most communities don't have the choice of going to a women only bar. Secondly, most women are raped by people they know and trust. There is a much higher likely hood of being rapes by a friend or relative than a stranger at a bar. But that is also much more likely to happen if alcohol is involved. Thirdly going to a bar to get laid to me sounds like a recipe for disaster. Basically one is tapping into every single social myth about coupling, and the introduction of alcohol along with the completely irrational sets of expectations and baggage which is involved is the perfect storm for smashed egos, challenged identities, and the type of social crises which invariably lead to violence (i.e. rape, battery or if you are more lucky, verbal abuse.)

I know lots of people think that going to bars to get laid is a good idea, but I can�t but see it as a form of social sadism and masochism since as I pointed out earlier, most people end up going home alone and lonely, and angree, and feeling regally unloved and unwanted and unattractive and unsuccessful. I mean there is a lot of baggage hanging out there and up for grabs when people go to bars to mate or find a mate. It's insanity.
katiebelle2882
considering the fact that i just got out of a 4 year relationship that was relatively boring and unfulfilling at the end sexually, i dont appreciate being judged as a sadomasochist by saying that sometimes, i just want to get laid. i dont go home angry, sad, alone and feeling bad about myself. its happened like 3 times in my life, and have ended up having a friendship with the person all three times. saying that most people go home feeling alone and bad etc etc is a function of that particular persons feelings about one night stands. i dont happen to feel that way if i feel comfortable with the person. i am not doing it out of self-pity or lack of self esteem as some people do. i think that if you are mature enough to know what you want and know the reasons you want it, than there is no shame in doing exactly that. i am a little confused how you equate going to a bar to maybe find someone to hook up with ends up with smashed identities , battered egos and violence? talk about taking things to extreme. not everything has the gravity that you imply in most of your posts, and not everything has to be so serious. if two people can agree on a hookup for what it is...a hookup anbd only that, well then, good for them.

also, i think you have some serious overgeneralizations when you talk about how "most" people go home feeling bad about themselves. if you dont like bars then fine, i dont really care, however, it seems to me that you have a very narrow view. i have made some of my best and closest friends, met so many people from all walks of life that i would not have otherwise met, had some of my most interesting and deeo conversations at bars. two bars in particular where i am a local but nevertheless, its not all about assholes getting wasted and acting stupid and negligent. you can have your coffee houses and other seemingly"enlightened" ways to meet people, i am going to stick to my bars. i am only saying this mind you, because you come off as condescending and snobby.

as for female only bars well, they do exist, and they are called lesbian bars. i have no problem going to one if the mood so strikes me or i am with my lesbian friends. i can pretty much tell you that most straight women have no interest going to female only bars unless they are lesbians or with their lesbian friends. in fact, i bet any bar that didnt let men in would end up being a lesbian bar by default. none of this is a bad thing, i am just trying to point out that its not particularly of interest to straight women, nor should it be if the reason they are going is bc its the only place they are "safe" from men who are assholes.
greenbean
Woah, katie, I just got outta 4 year relationship too! {{High five}}

Sorry, nohope. Looks like we ladies cant get on the bandwagon. Can we shift the focus on how to STOP the rapists instead of just trying to hide from them?
kjhink
Oh. My. God.

THIS is absolutely terrifying.

I am shocked and saddened nigh unto tears. I actually cannot fathom how this country has come to this. "Who cares about science? Never mind teen health. My hateful, vengeful, anti-sex god says that I'm right and you're wrong."
alligator
Well, their god is pro-sex as long as you're married and hetero and only use certain positions and have lots of babies and so on...
kittenb
That is just fucking ridiculous.
greenbean
I fuckin HATE PURITANICAL MORONS!!!
whew. I feel better now.
mornington
according to feministing, a spokesman for one of the people who had it changed (Mark Souder, I think he's a senator) said that now it's a scientific conference - whereas before it was just propaganda.

I think they might have it the wrong way round.
greenbean
Mark Monford on Purity Balls!
I agree with him 100%. This idea that a virgin is more "pure" and special than a non-virgin is horseshit, and actually very damaging.
lilacwine13
I agree with him too, greenbean, and am rather grossed out by the whole idea of purity balls (which sound like some sort of sex toy) and the emphasis on virginity in general. I don't like the idea of a father treating his daughter like some sort of property that must be protected, especially if it's anything involving her sexuality. I think that would mess her up mentally, as well as emotionally.

And good lord, I hate the fucking administration and their refusal to believe anything that doesn't fall in line with their fucked-up way of thinking, even if it does involve bending the facts and making up stuff.
katiebelle2882
so, I know we were talking about the Duke rape case in here and people blaming the victim, but now a second round of DNA tests have not matched with any lacross player on the team. I am pretty sure now this girl flat out lied, and by doing that only furthered the notion that the woman is always lying. I always knew this happened, and clearly it's the tiny minority of cases, but it's still really fucked up.
kittenb
But why would she lie? Whiel the presence of DNA is hard to refute, the abscence of it does not always prove anything. And please don't say she did it for money.
alligator
Why would she lie, if in fact she did?

Why does anyone lie about such things? Why did Tawana Brawley lie - remember that one?
katiebelle2882
I have no idea why she would. maybe they used condoms? All I am saying is that is sounds very very fishy to me. But anything is possible. I am sure something fucked up happened there, maybe it wasnt rape, maybe it was something else. What i would like to know is if there was semen there, but it just doesnt match any of the players. I dont necessarily think they are above something like what she is saying happened, I just think that them not having any DNA evidence is going to pretty much kill her case. But something else could have gone down.
hoosierman78
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't this all happen at a Lacrosse party? Now, I don't know about Duke, but where I went to school, just because it was a (insert group here) party, doesn't mean that members of that group were the only in attendance. Is it possible she mistakenly identified her attacker as a lacrosse player, when in fact he may not have been? While the DNA found during her post-rape exam pretty well excludes lacrosse players as her attacker, it doesn't mean that she wasn't attacked by possibly a friend of a team member or random party crasher.

While the DA is, for some reason, all for nailing members of the lacrosse team to the wall, why not take a step back and investigate all of the party's attendants. I'd think (I know, I know, this is where I get in trouble) that bringing this woman's attacker to justice would be more important than pushing this case out the door as quickly as possible. There's a difference between quick and dirty, and thorough yet efficient.
jujubean
All the players said only team members were at the party-everyone in attendance confirmed that. That is why only lacrosse players are suspects. And DNA did match 90% of the third person indicted today. And considering they were yelling that she was "just a stripper" outside of the house and that "police won't listen to her", I wouldn't doubt that they used condoms. And no search was done until days later, so they had plenty of time to clean the scene up. Just my two cents. Back to lurking...
kittenb
Yes alligator. Why would someone lie about these things? I would like to hear your opinion.
As far as I can tell, there is very little comparison between this case and the Tawana Brawley situation.

I just learned a very interesting fact from someone who has done rape crisis work longer than I have. Apparently if there is DNA/semen from multiple assailients, it becomes impossible to distinguish whoes DNA it is. I guess the contamination cancels out the pertinent information. My collegue is going to send me more information and I will post it as I get it.
alligator
kittenb,

The Tawana Brawley thing comes into play because here again was a report of a sexual attack so extreme - and on a minor, no less - that it was believed by the sheer awfulness of it. The alternative, that the girl was lying, struck many people as inconceivable.

But, as we all know now, the whole thing was a lie.

If the "Duke" woman is lying, it could be for any of the reasons other people lie. People can and do say the damnedest things. Apart from false rape accusations, experienced divorce attorneys could tell you horror stories about couples who accuse each other of abusing or molesting their own kids in order to gain custody. How could they stoop so low? Anger, hatred, desire, spite, revenge, grief, dementia... maybe a little bit of each.

Another thing... even a "hit" on the DNA test doesn't mean someone had sex against their will.
kittenb
Sorry, I still don't see a lot of connection.

target="_blank"> 3rd Member of Duke Lacrosse Team Indicted

Do you have any idea how hard it really is to get an arrest on a rape case, let alone three indictments? I belive her story.






smurfin
kitten, your link is broken.

I think you may have meant this:

Third lacrosse player charged in Duke rape case

By the way, this article refers to the lady in question as '27-year-old mother of two hired to dance', which I think is pretty cool.
katiebelle2882
this woman has cried rape how many times before? I am sorry, but I really feel alot of the time feminists cant grasp the idea that women do lie about these things. Why I dont know, but you are fooling yourself if you think a woman wouldnt lie about being raped. I am a feminist, but i fully realize women are far from perfect. I personally know 3 or so from college. Maybe its hard to believe if you have never seen it first hand, but in my opinion, this woman has discredited herself completely with her history (no not stripping before anyone jumps down my throat). I absolutely think the environment these lax players are used to makes it conducive for treating women like shit, and I do think that its possible that they would do something like this. but this particular time, i dont know.

I do hope that if it turns out to be true, that the put those assholes away for life.
katiebelle2882
on another note WTF

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006051500875_ pf.html

I am sorry, last time i checked my sole purpose in this world wasnt to just get pregnant and procreate. ugh. i shouldnt be in good health for just myself? no i should be in good health for the baby i will possibly never have. fucking ridiculous.
godslioness
Holy cow, KatieBelle. It's Handmaiden's Tale time... I've heard of pregnant women in the US being told off by waiters for ordering a glass of wine, does this mean you get your wrists smacked even if you're NOT visibily pregnant?
gluelita
oh, great. now if we're fat we're bad pre-mothers (it's like pre-crime).
i am so over this planet it's not even funny.
godslioness
Does this mean journalists get to ask Condie if she takes her folic acid supplements? And can tell her off if she has a glass of wine? Or owns a cat?

Am thinking of new bumper stickers, "God wants me for a Pod". Except that driving probably endangers those hypothetical fetuses, so maybe women should just stay home...
gluelita
i think god wants me more for an ipod.
tyger
man, that is creepy. i wish i couldn't see a point, though, but i do. two of my friends in the past year have gotten pregnant by accident (they were both on some form of birth control). both of them smoke cigarettes and weed, one of them drinks a lot. yes, once they knew they were pregnant they took steps to be healthier during pregnancy (no more alchohol, no more weed, wean themselves off cigarettes). one of them miscarried, and the other still has a higher risk of miscarrying because she's still smoking (though it would have been worse for her and the baby to quit cold turkey and put more stress on her body).

that said, of course, nobody has any right to treat our entire gender as pregnant women waiting to happen. i don't need to be any healthier than a man just because i have a uterus, damnit.
sybarite
It *is* like pre-crime. That is just more federal body control bullshit. There's no whisper of criticism of these invasive new federal guidelines in the article, and it sneaks in the point that black babies have a higher infant mortality rate, inferring that black mothers (or 'minority' mothers) have unhealthier habits than white mothers. Biased, reductive, scaremongering bullshit all around.

This is probably not helpful, but I am so damn glad I don't live in the US.
katiebelle2882
well tyger, i agree, i think a woman who is ACTUALLY pregnant is being extremely irresponsible by not stopping her bad habits, planned or not planned. but one who isnt planning to get pregnant has no responsibility (except to herself) to stop doing whatever she wants.

and black women do have unhealthier habits then white women...b/c they are more likely to be poor so, thanks to our crappy-ass healthcare system, high prices of healthy food and ridiculous healthcare costs they have less healthy babies and a higher infant mortality rate. racism, in many ways, has totally forced that upon them. ugh.

these guidlines make sense if you are actively TRYING to get pregnant. but honestly, i should have started treating myself like an expentant mother as soon as i started menstruating at age 12? fucking BS. and you are right, it IS the handmaids tale.
pepper
oookkkaaayyyyy. uh, that was a creapy article. yikes.
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