Mar 4 2007, 03:09 PM
There was an article in Glamour magazine a few months ago about this topic that also focused on the position of choice (cross threading here). Okay, Glamour is not exactly a feminist magazine, but it does discuss women's issues, often with a feminist slant. Anyway, the article discussed how many young girls today have lived in a world where "equal rights" has been more of a reality than it ever has been. Most of the young women today have seen women working and being moms and doing basically whatever men do (outside of shooting sperm out of an appendage) all of their lives. The article interviewed many of these young women, and their responses about feminism was that the fight was over. Equal rights are here! EGAD! Granted, things are not like they were in Tesao's day, but we still have a ways to go. If nothing else, last year the male basketball team in the town where I teach went to the State finals and everyone went to see the game and it was front page news and on the television. This year the girls' team went to state, and it barely got noticed. It's shit like that that gets me ready to do some slappin.'
That article also discussed choice young women, and they seemed to think it wasn't such a big deal because girls "know how to avoid pregnancy" now. They considered abortion not a viable option because only an "idiot" would get pregnant. Yeah, wait until your method fails, sweetie. Then see how you feel.
Mar 4 2007, 03:30 PM
kel reminded me: it is only this year that Wimbledon will be paying the same prize money to the female champion as it does the male; the fact that equal pay was not equal up until 2006 in such a high profile competition and equal sexed sport is outrageous.
Mar 4 2007, 03:52 PM
Your mention of the Wimbledon thing reminded me of an interview I was listening to on the radio a few days ago with author, Alice Hoffman
(I've never read any of her stuff, but she seems interesting) and she was talking about being a woman in the writing industry and all the assumptions people have, the value people put on your work, etc. She said that she was at a used book sale and they had two tables of books- one with a sign that said "Fiction- $1.00" and one with a sign that said, "Fiction by Women- .75 cents" I don't know how long ago that was, but WTF?
Mar 4 2007, 04:38 PM
It's exactly stuff like that which pisses me off! It's amazing how many of my guy friends don't realize that they will probably make more out in the workforce than I will just because they are male.
Sure, we've definitely come a long way but there's still more that needs to be done.
And as for those girls who think that they won't get pregnant, what are they thinking? Everyone knows that even the best protection doesn't work 100%. I've had two pregnancy scares even though I use the pill and condoms every time.
Mar 4 2007, 10:12 PM
I see women's rejection of feminism stemming from the reality that a few really privileged women (i.e., wealthy, white, etc.) have something that comes close to resembling equality (especially as portrayed by the media), so many women stop investigating below that surface level image. And yeah, I think the media is really guilty of that equality rights "whitewash" (what an appropriate word), because it is still largely white, wealthy men who run the media. And also, Gloria Steinem, in answering the question of why most young women on campus didn't engage in feminist activism, wrote that women become more radical as they age - and it's true. Many women have to experience discrimination and oppression before they understand it as a force in their lives. Many younger women have not experienced those things on the same level as, say, women who've experienced discrimination in family court (or family life, for that matter), or discrimination in job searches and career promotions, or the blatant sexism and harassment that still goes on in political circles, and so on. (For example, the women who launched the lawsuit against Wal-Mart, for promoting lesser-qualified men into management and not promoting them, were all middle-aged women.) I think many college-aged women are still in the stage of believing their parents and/or the media, who say, "Girl, you can be/do anything you want!" (My own father told me, in 1975, that I could be Prime Minister of Canada someday, if I really wanted to. But it's still not likely, is it? Hell, we don't even have equal representation yet.)
Although on the women-as-vets thing....I honestly think that has a lot to do with the Veterinarian Barbie that came out years ago. Imagine if they'd come up with Public Clinic Doctor Barbie or Civil Rights Lawyer Barbie or President of the United States Barbie! *sigh*
Mar 4 2007, 11:02 PM
Barbie did run for president in 2004!
Maybe if she'd won, we wouldn't be in Iraq still.
The stuff about younger women is interesting. My mom grew up in the '60s and '70s for the most part (she is 51) and she told me that in high school, she wasn't able to participate in sports because they didn't have teams for girls. She also told me that she was told to stop taking science and enroll in home ec instead, and she was never encouraged to go to college.
There's a lot of progress that was made, and I do think a lot of young women take it for granted. I don't know many people who worry about being able to get affordable birth control anymore, especially on college campuses. Or if one kind doesn't work for you, there are other options to try. Even just on that level, everything has changed so much in the last 25 years, and I think people don't realize that 25 years ago is not that much time.
Mar 4 2007, 11:20 PM
QUOTE(sidecar @ Mar 4 2007, 11:19 PM)
Even just on that level, everything has changed so much in the last 25 years, and I think people don't realize that 25 years ago is not that much time.
God, it still boggles my mind that we only got the right to vote 86 (87 on August 26th) years ago. When that *really* dawned on me a few years ago, I was shocked. I mean, I knew the history and all, but I know women older than 86 years.
Sorry to be ignorant, but do they do anything special on 8/26 to observe the anniversary? Probably some NOW thing, I'd assume?
Mar 5 2007, 08:27 AM
At the moment there is a conference going on at the UN about the status of women. You can read about it at this blog - http://statusofwomen.wordpress.com/
I was shocked (amused? annoyed? I'm not sure) to read this (copied from the blog):
The US Department of State announced the appointment of three individuals to their delegation for the CSW. Who are they? Lisa Guillermin Gable of Upperville, Virginia, Darlene Bramon of Hailey, Idaho, and Pia Francesca de Solenni of Washington, D.C.
Bramon is a major fundraiser for Bush, and so is Guillermin Gable. Both are succesful business women, and Guillermin Gable is a member of Women Corporate Directors. Ooh well, that should make them qualified to take democratic global decisions on women in poverty, shouldn’t it?
The real star is Pia Francesca de Solenni. She won an award from the Vatican for her pHD thesis. Guess what it’s about.
If you think your rights as a woman are secure, you are kidding yourself.
Mar 5 2007, 08:27 AM
Speaking of how far women have come (and still have further to go) I remember my mom telling me that in the 70's when she working at a bank. My mom and they other female tellers made significantly less on the hour because the male tellers had familys to support.
The same bank forced her to quit when she told them she was pregnant. Their reason? There was a small step over the curb to walk into the bank and they were afraid she would trip and fall, plus she had a husband to take care of her and didn't really need the money. Yeah right, my parents were poor as church mice when they were first married.
There was a really funny cartoon in Bitch magazine last issue I think, that illustrated the corporate paths for men and women. If I can find it I will try to post it.
Mar 5 2007, 10:30 AM
There is so much here to post on I don't know where to begin.
Feminism as a dirty word, I totally agree. I have a friend, who is a fantastic person, but who I had a good long talk with last week about feminism. He told me that the impression he got of feminism is that feminists were all man hating, down with patricarchy, angry women. I was dumbfounded that he told me this. I said, hey you know I am a feminist, does that mean that I'm the same way. I said that there are many different aspects of feminism, just as there are different ideas on religion, medicine, whatever!
That Glamour article, murphy's law, if something can fail it will. I have also had a pregnancy scare, and I think one time I miscarried, not pleasant. The pregnancy scare was terrifying, I was afriad to tell me mother, so I went through it with my then (useless) partner. I now know that I could go to someone else if it were to happen again. I am on the pill, and nothing is fool proof.
That whole thing about men having families to support, Uhhhh, wtf, is all I have to say. It reminds of 9 to 5, when Lily Tomlin's character gets looked over for a promotion because the man who got the position over her had a family to support. On the bright side, I work in an environment where women supervisors are much more prevelant than men.
I agree, how can women not be feminists? It just seems natural, at least it does to me. How could you not want to stand up and support yourself, and say this just isn't right. I mean that in any aspect of your life, not just the hot button issues which feminists fight for. No one should stand back and take a beating.
What I find horrifying, is that the conservative party of Canada, that wonderful group of assholes, has taken the word equality out of some government literature. In fact, Bev Oda seems to think that women have achieved equality in Canada!!!!!! I am curious what fucking planet this woman is from.
Mar 5 2007, 07:36 PM
i have no problem identifying myself as a feminist. in fact, since i believe all women and men should be, that term for me is just a baseline. so, i feel like i need to identify myself as something a step above a feminist, because it's something i feel passionate about. i don't like "feminazi", but if someone called me that i would actually probably be flattered, despite their intentions behind calling me that.
i need a new term. ardent feminist? left of center feminist? feminisiter?
and as a side note, i rode some SUV's ass this weekend because the female driver had a gwb bumper sticker that read " 'W' stands for Women."
Mar 5 2007, 08:28 PM
a gwb bumper sticker that read " 'W' stands for Women.
*gak* i think i just threw up a bit in my mouth--- again!
it's topics like this that make me realize exactly how much sway the republicans have in this country. seriously why on earth would any sane person be afraid of calling themself a feminist, were it not for the rabid right working overtime to make something so positive-- an opressed minority group of people being treated equal-- so supposedly terrifying. it's that kind of creeping seeping propagandistic backlash that they do so well. it just reeks of that same sort of irrational logic that turned "politically correct" from such a beautiful, revolutionary educational idea into a knee jerk reactionary catch all.
Mar 6 2007, 07:52 PM
hey No Plastic,...sorry I'm late to the party here but you should read chapter 10 from "The Hearts of Men". It reveals that in 1982(!) there were many, many women who voted against the ERA (equal rights amendment). The main reason being that they feared "the difference between the sexes would be abolished by law" and it would "abrogate the laws that require men to support their families" (eventhough these so-called laws are really just tradition and/or wishful thinking). The antifeminist idea was that if some women are going to go off and make money for themselves, why on earth would men choose a woman who wants to be a housewife (aka leech)? The funny thing is, anti-feminist women are really distrusting of men, so its ironic that its the feminists that are labeled as "man-haters".
The chapter also discusses how many suffragettes were fighting to be able to vote because they were for prohibition and stricter laws binding men to their role as breadwinners. Interesting, no?
Mar 6 2007, 08:27 PM
I had no idea about Running-for-President Barbie. Why didn't they just make her President Barbie and get folks used to the idea???
I've heard from lots of women about making less money than men in the past based on the whole "primary breadwinner" logic...but I think it's the same logic that keeps women from getting their wage equity rights met even now. And I read a survey once that said people still tend to tip men more than women - even when they are doing the same job - because of the "primary breadwinner" logic.
But here's the one that kills me. About five years ago, a friend of mine became disabled on the job, and spent 2 years going around and around with Worker's Comp....in the end, they decided she was only worth $75 in benefits a week...based solely on the logic that she hadn't been the "primary breadwinner!!!!" Can you believe it?? WCB is a government body! (Meanwhile, her husband, the so-called "primary breadwinner," was diagnosed with MS during the middle of her fight for Worker's Comp.)
My mom said in the '50s and '60s, women weren't allowed to wear pants to the office.
I don't even own a skirt.
I don't know how it went down in the U.S., but in Canada, only white women won the vote in 1918. People of colour - male and female (and not including Aboriginal people) - didn't get the vote until after WWII, after Canadians of colour had "proven" themselves in the war. And Aboriginal people - male and female - didn't get the right to vote until 1960. Shameful, huh?
Mar 7 2007, 07:45 AM
They must not have heavily advertised Running For President Barbie, because if they had, my little sisters would have had one. Our basement (aka kids play area) looked like the Tazmanian Devil tore through the Barbie section at Toys R Us.
My wife was recently a victim of the 'primary breadwinner' pay issue. She was the accounting manager at a small contractor. She was paid alright, fairly in line with what the other members of management made. This was until the service manager quit to start his own company. They hired a guy that had formerly been a sales rep, and paid him basically 75% more than anyone but the CEO. Discussing pay was a big no-no, but being in accounting, she saw everyone's paychecks. Time came for her review (which, the CEO had previously told her would get her more 'in-line' with where she should be) and he gave her a 10% raise. Normally good, but no where near where the other guy was. The reason she was given: 1. they had to woo the guy to leave commission sales and become salaried, 2. he had a family to support. She turned in her two weeks later that day, and was made even happier in her decision to leave due to her replacement being hired in at the same pay level she was at, though he had no relevant experience at all (he, afterall, had a family to support).
She's in the middle of starting up her own printing company right now, and couldn't be happier. No, she won't make as much at first, but she will directly be compensated for all the hard work she's putting in.
Up until this all happened, I questioned just how common this practice was, given that I had worked for 3 different large companies and never saw it. Pay was almost military-like in you started at a certain level, based on how much experience you had relevant to the job. Starting pay at that level was the same for everyone. Do ok, you get promoted a level every few years, and the years you don't standard cost of living increase. Promotions were based on multiple things, but in the end, it came down to overall performance. There was no favoritism that I could see based on gender. The slackers - male & female - moved horizontally in the company (or were terminated). Those that did well were promoted. After this happened to my wife, I realized that the majority of people don't work for Fortune 500 size companies. They work in small businesses where the good ole' boy network is still very alive and well.
With all the efforts to get women more involved in traditionally male dominated careers (construction, engineering, etc), I can see why so many women don't want to. Why go through the rigors of a technical degree only to find that your efforts won't pay off the same as your male counterpart that probably didn't do as well as you did. Maybe it's just my being naive, but I will never understand how a person's value can be determined by what's between their legs (or their skin color, sexual orientation, etc). I just don't get what the hell some of these guys are thinking sometimes.
Mar 7 2007, 02:35 PM
Do I post this
in here? If so I only have three words...
WHAT THE FUCK??
I'm thinking about getting my nipples pierced so I'm doing some research online and I come across this shit. I've seen it all now.
Mar 8 2007, 08:05 AM
*snort* at the nipples.
These men (boys? pigs? arseholes?) are future lawyers. I mean really. What the fuck.http://feministing.com/archives/006649.html#more
Mar 8 2007, 09:13 AM
WTF happened to Avril Lavigne?
I just watched her old video I'm With You and then I saw she had a new one named Girlfriend so I watched that. Boy has she changed. She's following the Gwen path isn't she? Disapointing...
Mar 8 2007, 03:09 PM
mmmm, not really a fan of avril. but she got her start doing a shania twain song, then became "punk rock" so she stood out from the blondes of britney and xtina. so i'm not suprized she's doing the gwen thing. hell who isn't? fergie's got her little latinas in tow to counter gwen's little asians. ugh.
as for the pierced nipples, transvestites and cross dressers buy those. along with the fake boobs that are linked on the bottom of the page.
Mar 8 2007, 03:20 PM
Ugh, I was never a fan of Avril to begin with. Something about her just seems really fake.
As for the fake nipple piercing...I don't even know what to say about that.
Mar 8 2007, 06:31 PM
today I have three outrages to report. All from todays Democricy now show with Amy GoodmanOutrage 1. High School Students Suspended for “Vagina Monologues” Performance
Back in the United States, a reading of the play “The Vagina Monologues” has led to the suspension of three female high school students in upstate New York. The students at John Jay High were suspended for including the word ‘vagina’ in their performance.http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/08/1442255Outrage 2.Sexual Assault Within US Militaryhttp://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/08/1443232Outrage 3.Gender Stereotyping in Media for Childrenhttp://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/08/1443236
Mar 8 2007, 08:05 PM
I can see having fake pierced nipples for transvestites. I was WTFing it for women who "want" their nipples pierced but are too chicken shit to actually do it.
Mar 9 2007, 08:10 AM
Back to this vagina controversy. This is really starting to piss me off. VAGINA! Oh I'm bad for using such a word.
Really, I want to know what is so bad about the word VAGINA!
People really need to get the stick that are wedged firmly up their asses, out. People need to chill the fuck out.
I think if people are so concerned about the word VAGINA that everyone should rally medical professionals and we should now referd to VAGINA'S as down there.
So, we will give birth from "down there", when we are having sex "ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh, fuck my down there harder" and when when it comes for yearly check ups, it'll be "down there" check ups.
Mar 9 2007, 08:36 AM
I’m so sorry to stray from the vagina topic but my friends kid plays with the dolls called Bratz
. Here's another
These are awful and objectify and demean women completely. WTF.
Now back to your topic of the word vagina.
I personally don’t like the word vagina but I sure as hell am not going to start referring to my nanny hoo hoo as “down there”. It’s my pussy, cunt and/or VAGINA. Come on now…
Mar 9 2007, 09:30 PM
I have to say that I do have a bit of a problem with Bratz, they are making dolls with bedroom eyes! Gaaaaa!
I know that some people don't like the word Vagina, but to be offended by it? Aren't there worse words in the world to be offended by? I can think of too many.
Mar 10 2007, 12:29 AM
Just yesterday I was telling my mom about the sign controversy for The Vagina Monologues, where they actually changed the name on the sign. What city was that in again?
It just irks me because it's not a dirty word! It's a name for a body part. Just like kidneys, or elbow, or esophagus! It's simply a body part.
It kind of just makes me want to yell Vagina at all those peole who think it's a dirty word.
Mar 12 2007, 02:56 PM
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Mar 7 2007, 08:52 PM)
Do I post this
in here? If so I only have three words...
WHAT THE FUCK??
I'm thinking about getting my nipples pierced so I'm doing some research online and I come across this shit. I've seen it all now.
I fainted when I got my nipples pierced. I got them both done at the same time.
Mar 12 2007, 07:06 PM
I just wanted to say Vagina. I think I'd like to get a licence plate that had Vagina on it. Hee.
Mar 12 2007, 07:26 PM
More information on the sorority incident at DePaw. I'm really pleased with DePaw's stance on the issue.Sorority Meltdown
Mar 12 2007, 07:53 PM
Is it stupid and naive for me to get so upset when I see what some guys put on the internet? I am not talking about actual porn sites, even the truly heinous ones. I mean stuff like the "feministing" blog a few lines down. And today, on MySpace, two of the rape support sites I am linked too have been attacked by just random guys saying things like "bitches deserve to get raped" and "die, cum-swallowing whores." Really, really awful stuff.
I am torn between wondering how there is anything about this that surprises me and wondering how I still can belive that I will find a good guy. I shouldn't be surprised that this sort of ugliness is all around. For fuck's sake I spend all of my working hours with rape survivors, trying to help them piece back together a life that guys like the ones above just tear apart and stomp all over because they think they can. And when I see vicious internet attacks that serve no purpose but to retraumatize innocent victims it exhausts me. All I can think is, how in the hell can I know that a guy I trust isn't somewhere laughing at some poor female law student who is being threatened on-line and having people say she deserves to be raped.
This rage I feel makes me weak. It makes me so scared that things are only getting worse because now it isn't enough to attack a woman once. Now the attack must be followed up by coming to survivor sites and tossing random threats. DON"T THEY GET IT? Can't they see that all that does it cause a whole new pain? How can people be so mean and cruel and how is it that when I am surrounded by so much evidence that no one cares about women's pain, I still hope that these asshats are a very very small and vocal minority and that the rest of the guys out there are not like that? I just loose the ability to trust and I lack the desire to try after a day like this.
Mar 13 2007, 07:42 AM
i hear ya kittenb. it is so disgusting and horrifying. and it seems like it never ends. there will always be some asshole somewhere...
i remember at a take back the night march when i was in college-we had guys in the dorms yelling "on your knees bitches!!" at us. it was like wtf???? WHY was that ok? why did they think rape was funny? it really makes me crazy. i go on craig's list sometimes, and its so fucking scary to see what some people will write about rape and stuff. this is the kind of stuff that enrages me and makes me so angry i can't even see straight.
you are doing such great work though! keep it up!
Mar 13 2007, 10:32 AM
When people make jokes about rape it disgusts me. How fucking funny is that? I can't even fathom why someone would make a joke about rape, totally inappropriate.
So mad right now.
Mar 13 2007, 11:53 AM
I was having a bit of a breakdown last night. However, enough sleep and a 70 degree day have done much to improve my mood.
I am just finishing this book called Father-Daughter Incest, by Judith Lewis Herman. Origionally written in 1981, it was groundbreaking and has shaped much of our current understanding of incest. The copy I have is a reissue from 2000. One of the concepts she discusses is how incest is another symptom of the patriarcal society. The fathers of the house have the right to take advantage over everything that is theirs, even their daughters. She shows evidence of this throughout history in incestuous fathers, seductive fathers, even in fathers who never touch their daughters and love them but have far too much invested in their daughters staying virginal. In retrospect, this seems so obvious but I had never really put it in those words before. And the reason that rape is something that men feel compelled to laugh at and minimize is because challanging it is threatening the patriarchy at it's core. Even men who would never rape are conditioned to mock it's existance. And so many of them will. Until they realize that they know someone it happened to. And then, it often still becomes about the man; "How can I help? Why won't she listen to what I think she should do?"
And it's obvious that sites like that horrible law student bullshit just exist to remind women what dangers we are going to be subjected to if we dare step a toe out of line. The other day I had some guy ask me how a woman walking alone at night was any different than him walking around with a wad of cash telling everyone he had money. Shouldn't he expect to be robbed? This after I spent 80 minutes talking with the class about living in a rape culture. I almost hit him.
Mar 13 2007, 12:13 PM
kittenb-was it herman who says incest/child sexual abuse is the training ground for patriarchy?
oh man, i HATE that whole "walking around with money at night" thing. that means women, simply by existing, are "flaunting" that they have something to steal. so, should we all dress up like men? "hide" our womanness? or never walk alone at night? nevermind that most assault isn't a stranger at night kinda thing. gah-clueless!!!!!!
my old roommate was a christian dumbass-he was "nice" but just soooo clueless. he came home from a softball game once and said his team "got raped." I was like really? omg? what happened? every member of your team was sexually assaulted? omg!!! he's like no, i just mean we lost really badly. i was like ok, well NEVER use that word again unless you really mean rape. then later i heard my feminist (?) friend using it in the same context!!!! i was like omg, great.
Mar 13 2007, 01:05 PM
i just think a lot of men don't understand the way that women view things so differently.
i think a good story that illustrates this was the opening of an ep. of six feet under where a girl was leaving a club and she notices someone following her, then hears them call her name. in a panic she runs in the street and gets hit by a car. turns out the guys calling her name were her friends who saw her leaving the club and thought what they were doing was funny. it never dawned on them she might be threatend or scared by it.
in the same way most men just never stop to think about the impact of rape, and even when they do, they never really understand it in the profound way that most women do. having a dick is very different, the way you are raised, the way people treat you--you never feel vulnerable in that way. it really is so fundemental to the way men and women see themselves. but i agree it is a symptom of a patriarical society.
i think a lot of that bullshit-- the callousness about rape, is another case of men with shitty self-esteem trying to feel better about their masculinity by verbally assaulting women. not that that's an excuse, but if we want to understand what would make men do something so heinous, i think it's important to understand the way masculinity works. contrary to what most people think, masculinity is a very fragile thing. i think the closest thing for women is the idea of being a "good" or "bad" mother. rather than being this unshakable foundation, it's more of an achelies heel. the person's self-concept is something that is subject to everyone's perception of them rather than based on some physical fact. so masculinity is something that is constantly underfire, constantly subject to what everyone else thinks. and subject to instant demolition. as a consequence, your average guy desperately acts in whatever way will bolster his egg shell armor of manhood. the result is machismo, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, and all the accompanying, fucked up acts. our patriarical society tells the man that if he behaves in a certain way, essentually shitting on other people, then he will unquestionably be a man. until the next occasion we are able to judge him, and the whole thing starts all over again. men are too busy shoring that false masculinity to see beyond their own nose.
Mar 13 2007, 01:15 PM
She never says that in the book. More that incest is a product of the patriarchy. However, I can totally see how any child sexual abuse is training ground for living in the patriarchy.
x-post w/girltrouble: gt, you made some really good points there. Thanks!
Okay, I just did a quick Google search on the "training ground" comment. It seems to have been from someone named Pearlman but I cannot access the article. Thanks Maddy. I'll be using that quote in future trainings.
Mar 13 2007, 05:47 PM
I would really like to know how women "ask" to be raped? I remember a few years ago there was a young woman who was raped by a few men, and I believe these young men were from affluent families and one was the son of the police chief, and the defence lawyer was suggesting that she was promiscuous and asking to be raped because she shaved her pubic hair. Ummmm, how would that fucker feel it if was his daughter?
Mar 13 2007, 06:10 PM
and how did the rapist know about her shaving? it's just an excuse to justify the violence. it's just another case of not blaming the man for his actions, but the woman. take a look at any given religion, xtianity or islam, both of them take the time to talk about how women should be clothed because men can't handle being tempted. (insert eye rolling here.) that's the subtext of trials like the one you mentioned, culture. the way they see it, whatever bit of trivia they hold up was so over powering that the man had to. it's bullshit. it's just another case of the old boy's club, your patriarchy at work, one asshole covering for another.
Mar 13 2007, 06:35 PM
I'll have to look up that book kittenb. IMO I've kinda thought that the whole fundie thing of daughters promising their virginity to their fathers and those virginity dances, rings and crap are a form of incest. Not physical, but mentally invasive. Quite creepy, especially when the government is sanctioning it to some degree by funding abstinence only programs in schools.
I'm probably going to get jumped on here and I'll take my lumps, deep breath: No, a woman never, never, never asks to be raped. Ever. But I will say that when I was in college and after college I have seen some women make some pretty dumb choices by placing themseleves in situations where it could potentially lead to rape, however it is NEVER a woman's fault even if a rape does occur and the jackasses should be prosecuted. Here is an incident that sticks out in my mind: At a party in college - it was a fraternity, but they were the quirky, geeky, nice guys for the most part - there were these three women who came to the party and one of them was BEYOND drunk and proceeded to pass out in a corner. My friends and I were concerned that she had alcohol poisioning and found her friends to see if they needed help getting her home. Their response? She did this all the time and she could just sleep it off. We were appalled. By this time a few of the guys were concerned, because it was an open party and they were afraid some jackass would try something with her. So my friend and I along with the lone sober guy loaded her into a car and took her back to her dorm after first fighting with her friends to find out where she lived. Had something happened to her would it have been her fault? Hell no. But the world we live in ain't perfect, many men have that sickly distorted view of rape being a woman asking for it. I do feel that you do have to take precautions to protect yourself from potentially harmful situations. Exhale breath.
Mar 13 2007, 08:35 PM
i don't think you need to get jumped, but i just don't think that there is such a thing as asking for it.
no matter what, a man-- any man should be able to control himself. if not he needs to be in jail. really. there should be nothing that anyone could do that would make someone rape another person. i know what you mean, but that's like saying walking by a bank is asking for it to be robbed.
Mar 14 2007, 06:59 AM
I agree that people should be able to control themselves. I mean, after you rape someone, do you go bragging to your friends about it? Are you somehow proving your manhood?
Mar 14 2007, 08:05 AM
october-i hear what you are saying. for me, that's been a huge problem. i was a party girl in college-i didn't have sex or do much more than just drunken making out, but it was enough to get me a reputation as a "slut." i went to frat parties all the time, wasted, dancing and having fun.
now, i was a naive little 17 year old and i had no clue that the reason the boys were giving us free liquor was that they wanted to get us drunk enough to be easy and fuckable. so i drank the alcohol, and danced to the great music, and partied my ass off. i also made out with boys and would go back to their room/dorm/whatever sometimes.
so obviously-this is a great set-up for rape to happen. and it did. now, that doesn't make it my fault, but yeah, i was putting myself into situations that were dangerous. i just didn't know they were dangerous. i didn't know that a boy would think it was ok to stick his unwrapped dick into me without asking first. i was so shocked the first time that happened!
ok i'm ramblin' now-shocking! but i guess what i'm saying is that yes-there are ways to protect and defend ourselves, but when it comes down to it-it's not up to us. i mean, i went to like, a zillion of these parties and had two bad experiences. other girls/women date lots of men and only one man rapes them. so i hear what october is saying, and at the same time, i think it kinda does give this false illusion of safety-to think that we can control men by controlling our own behavior.
Mar 14 2007, 09:34 AM
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Mar 14 2007, 08:16 AM)
I mean, after you rape someone, do you go bragging to your friends about it?
Sometimes, yes, they do. That's where you get cases of people who vidoe tape themselves raping a drunk girl and show it all over the place. The guys doing it may not call it rape. Normally they will just say they fucked her, but it happens often enough.
And as for the whole deal about "asking for it," when the student asked me about the rape/money comparison, I broke it down by saying that if he walked by me with the money, I wouldn't steal it because I am not a thief. I could get drunk as hell or walk naked down the street and ten guys would not rape me because they are not rapists. The one guy who would rape me is a rapist.
Mar 14 2007, 10:11 AM
This conversation reminds me of The Rape of Mr. Smith:
The Rape of Mr. Smith:
The law discriminates against rape victims in a manner which would not be tolerated by victims of any other crime. In the following example, a holdup victim is asked questions similar in form to those usually asked a victim of rape.
“Mr. Smith, you were held up at gunpoint on the corner of 16th and Locust?”
“Did you struggle with the robber?”
“He was armed.”
“Then you made a conscious decision to comply with his demands rather than to resist?”
“Did you scream? Cry out?”
“No. I was afraid.”
“I see. Have you ever been held up before?”
“Have you ever given money away?”
“Yes, of course–”
“And did you do so willingly?”
“What are you getting at?”
“Well, let’s put it like this, Mr. Smith. You’ve given away money in the past–in fact, you have quite a reputation for philanthropy. How can we be sure that you weren’t contriving to have your money taken from you by force?”
“Listen, if I wanted–”
“Never mind. What time did this holdup take place, Mr. Smith?”
“About 11 p.m.”
“You were out on the streets at 11 p.m.? Doing what?”
“Just walking? You know it’s dangerous being out on the street that late at night. Weren’t you aware that you could have been held up?”
“I hadn’t thought about it.”
“What were you wearing at the time, Mr. Smith?”
“Let’s see. A suit. Yes, a suit.”
“An expensive suit?”
“In other words, Mr. Smith, you were walking around the streets late at night in a suit that practically advertised the fact that you might be a good target for some easy money, isn’t that so? I mean, if we didn’t know better, Mr. Smith, we might even think you were asking for this to happen, mightn’t we?”
“Look, can’t we talk about the past history of the guy who did this to me?”
“I’m afraid not, Mr. Smith. I don’t think you would want to violate his rights, now, would you?”
Thanks for bringing up the subject of rape jokes and inappropriate usage of the word. Le Boy tends to be the butt of jokes among one of his particular circles of friends. Mainly because he hangs out with these assholes and lets himself be the butt (I'm not bitter about it, noooo!) and through the grapevine I heard that they have even made up a delightful song about violating him and sing it in a joking manner. I get out of being around these guys as much as possible, but unfortunately, I inevitably will have to at some point. And I've already played out in my mind what I'll say of they ever sing the little diddy in front of me. Think Samuel L. Jackson reciting Ezekiel 25:17 in Pulp Fiction before he shoots Brett.
Mar 14 2007, 10:17 AM
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyes-i love this polly!!!! so right on.
Mar 14 2007, 10:35 AM
I agree polly. Why is it so appropriate to blame the victim in rape? Does someone blame the victim of a hit and run, or murder, or toture? Nope.
But when a woman gets raped, it's her fault for wearing what she did, or having a drink, or being flirty and leading a man on, or whatever. I guess when things get too far and a man gets wound up, then it's the woman's fault, or so the law would make it seem.
In my own case of stupid drunken behaviour, I went to some guys car at the bar, he could've done something, but didn't. And when I first met le man, I was at the bar and had to use the washroom bad, I had a full bottle of beer. I asked him to hold it, and I didn't know him for a hole in the ground. Things could've turned out a lot worse. But they didn't. My point is that some men are real assholes and would take advantage of the situation.
Mar 14 2007, 01:53 PM
Rape jokes are totally inexcusable for me. And after reading this discussion, last night my we were watching that news story of the 101 year old woman who was hit and robbed and I said I couldn't believe they had 500 officers looking for the man. My brother said they don't even have that many people looking for rapists, and then my dad joked that rape, "isn't that bad". I got really furious at him and wanted to ask tell him I'm a survivor, but I was at the "I'm so angry I'm gonna cry" stage so I shut my mouth after yelling at him.
Gah, thinking about it gets me worked up again.
Mar 14 2007, 02:18 PM
so sorry. you gotta tell him though, dude. that'll shut him up real fast. crying is good too-dad's can't handle crying women in pain, esp. their daughters.
culture-in college i eventually got so paranoid that i wouldn't accept an open drink from anyone, and i brought my drinks into the bathroom with me. the things i used to do in college-dang! i can't believe i didn't get into worse trouble. Trouble, of course, meaning being raped/assaulted/etc.
Mar 14 2007, 02:22 PM
If I have to go to the washroom when I'm at the bar, I'll either toss the rest of the drink. or finish it off then go. Or I'll leave with a damn good friend.
It also helps that I know the bartenders, well, where I frequent. So I need not worry about them being in on anything. They pour in front of you, too.
Mar 14 2007, 02:35 PM
polly, that's great. It's so true, though.
I'm the same with either finishing drinks or leaving them with a friend. It's become... normal.
o/t, but I saw this
article - magazine websites offering airbrushing software. I thought it was interesting, and really quite horrible. Admittedly, the article is off a fashion blog, and isn't all that fulfilling. It just has all the links in it.