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Full Version: What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
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kittenb
The whole blaming the rape victim thing goes back sooooo far. Think the 1600's when a woman in England had to have 4 men of upstanding character hear her cry for help. Isn't that still the case in some countries? And then consider the whole idea of a succubus, an evil female spirit that would seduce men in their sleep? That was the origional explaination of wet dreams. Women could take men past the point of control on their sexual urges. Such bullshit.

Erinjane, I feel you. If you tell him, let us know what happens.

That touch up thing just made me crazy. Instead of teaching girls to be happy with their bodies, let's give them ways to hide them.
chachaheels
Kittenb, you said something in a post from a couple of days ago that's been reverberating for me for a while now--rape certainly has its powerful subtleties.

You were talking about someone's book, and the idea of fathers having the patriarchal right to incest--over daughters, whether that right is to actually use them sexually or to preoccupy themselves with the value of their daughter's "viriginity". I think I grew up in this household. And I do remember--especially on one or two occasions--where this preoccupation with my "virginity" felt like a kind of sexual violation. Both times ended in physical violence--the first time I was too small and I couldn't fight back, but I did end up very, very ill for a number of weeks; the second time I was older by at least a decade, on my own, and conscious enough to defend myself physically. But I've never been able to shake that feeling of being somehow sexually abused, because it didn't happen in a literal way. I mean, my father and I have fought verbally for as long as I can remember: but those incidences were real turning points I couldn't really "understand" on a clear level until now. I always felt like there was a major transgression being committed against me, in his thinking about me like I was some kind of sexual property--especially since his thinking has not changed to this day, and it's underlined all kinds of interactions which have taken place between me and my father over the course of my lifetime. Its affected everything, from my relationship to my mother and brother and extended family members, to my relationship to my husband. The thing which has bothered me a long, long time, is that everyone in my family has witnessed this--they did witness it, back when it happened years ago; and even now. Yet, I've always felt like I was the one who did the wrong thing.

Occasionally, he has made observations demonstrating the same mindset about my neice--first, when she was 3 and taking ballet lessons; and now, when she's turned 16 and has started to become more womanly in her appearance. My sister in law will note what he says and then react furiously to it: but I notice that nothing is done to remove my neice from this dangerous kind of criticism. I just know from observation that my neice, and her little brother, are "on" to my father in a way I could never have been--they're aware of his nature and they avoid running into it.

Anyway, not surprisingly, both of the "incidences" I'm thinking about took place over my interest in a boy (the first time, hell, I was a kid) and, later, in a man I was seeing. Each time the relationships were destroyed.

I never figured it out till now--but I've always felt like something really wrong happened, and that maybe my perception about it was all wrong because hell, it's not like my father actually raped me, or anything...

The truly off-putting, disgusting thing is that he still feels, to this day, that this was all "his right", and that I did something unforgiveable.

And that fact, for me, makes me look at a whole number of issues very, very differently.
culturehandy
Touch ups, what women are comparing themselves too isn't even real. Society is so warped that it now sets the ideal of beauty as something which doesn't even exist. How pathetic.

I too would like to know what the preoccupation with virginity is. Why does it matter?

crazyoldcatlady
polly, that Mr. Smith post is fucking amazing.
girltrouble

near as i can figure, i think it has to do with guilt and fear. guys know the things that guys see women, the way they talk about women, the way that they think about women-- and it ain't pretty. men are sheep, and it takes very little prodding for most guys to do some fucked up shit. on the flip side, the fear side they know all of that and they are afraid that they can't protect their daughters, and that is another thing that can impeach their ideas of being a good man, a good father. where women tend to worry about being a bad mom with the children are younger, men with daughters are hit with being a bad dad later.

but that's my best guess.

polly: what crazy said.

and cha cha~ thank you so much for your post. it makes so much about what we have all been talking about tangable.
pollystyrene
Thanks- it was talked about in a women's studies class I took a few years ago, and I think I had lost the handout it was on, but fortunately you can find it all over the internet. I wonder where it originated from.
chachaheels
Pollystyrene, when I was in highschool I know we saw a short film about a man taking the stand as the victim of a robbery--an extremely similar scenario to the one you wrote out. The idea's quite old but it really does show just how much bias exists in the legal system against women. Thanks for posting that. I wonder if that old film is still available somewhere to use as a teaching tool--it really opened eyes in our class.
girltrouble

this story chills me to the bone. npr's radio program day to day has a story on sexual harrasment in the military. there is also a story on salon.com

here is one small bit:
Last year, Col. Janis Karpinski caused a stir by publicly reporting that in 2003, three female soldiers had died of dehydration in Iraq, which can get up to 126 degrees in the summer, because they refused to drink liquids late in the day. They were afraid of being raped by male soldiers if they walked to the latrines after dark.

just to reiterate: they weren't afraid of the iraqis. they were afraid of the soldiers they served with.
if we want to talk about support our soldiers, those women serving would be a great place to start.




culturehandy
Fuck. I am speechless. I am so horrified by this.
kelkello
And with this comes the narrow mindset that women don't belong in the military. Because you know that's what the bulk of middle America is going to say. Not that the soldiers are wrong, but that women don't belong and that somehow, by wanting to help protect their country, they are asking for this to happen. Makes me wanna stick something in my eye.
greenbean
I read an article the other day about people who disapprove of women in the military because they think it means less modivation for the male soldiers. They argue that one of the chief modivations for men to fight is to protect 'their women' at home...so if there are women fighting and dying they feel like they are sending the message to the enemy of "here, take 'em."

So apparently soldiers are inherintly noble and protective of women,.. until women join in arms and muck it up(?). Jeez.
nohope
One of the things I found interesting from an interview Amy Goodman did on International women’s day was how native American women are joining the Armed forces in order to bring respect to their families, precisely because of a sense that they are part of a worrier tradition.

i.e. interesting to think of women in America as feeling part of a warier tradition.

Also interesting in that there is an old tradition among Germanic and Celtic tribes of women as worriers.

candycane_girl
I'm a bit annoyed. I was telling my mom about the rape in the military article and she started going on about how men are always thinking about sex and they just can't stop thinking about it, etc, etc. I couldn't believe my ears. I think about sex all the freakin time and you don't see me raping anyone!

I mean, if they're horny, can't they just masturbate like everyone else?
maddy29
i hate that-men are always thinking about sex. so stupid. as if that makes it ok or something. it's such a power thing- esp in the military, i'd think. i mean, you gotta feel pretty powerless being out there in the desert being bombed and stuff-what better way to regain your power than to rape a woman? niiiice. the military has a long history of sexual harrassment and rape, and it doesn't really seem that anyone is actually doing anything about it. it's such an old boys club. gak.

maybe they should start bringing in sex workers so that the men have something to fuck at night, and they'll leave the female soldiers alone. (that was sarcastic)

sad that this seems much more likely than them doing anything to protect the female soldiers.
culturehandy
Rape has to do with power.

I am also very horny, and you don't see me going around raping men at random and all the time.
girltrouble

as strange as it sounds, men thinking constantly about sex is hormonal. i have yet to talk to a f2m tranny (and seattle has a LOT of 'em), who isn't completely takenaback by how much they think about sex once they get on testosterone. still, i agree candycane. thinking is fine, but there is no excuse for not having manners/invading/violating someone else. it's not ok to even joke about rape, and it's certainly not ok to even hint at it, like some guys did in that article. and personally i think if you rape someone, they should cut the fucker off. and not chemically. and you get no painkiller.
maddy29
wow gt-that is reallly interesting about the f2m who experience this surge of thinking about sex. ya know i always brush off the whole "men think about sex more often" thing as just sexist drivel, but maybe there really is more to it than that.

i also agree with the cutting it off thing. great idea.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Mar 19 2007, 05:23 PM) *

wow gt-that is reallly interesting about the f2m who experience this surge of thinking about sex. ya know i always brush off the whole "men think about sex more often" thing as just sexist drivel, but maybe there really is more to it than that.

i also agree with the cutting it off thing. great idea.



Cutting it off would not do a thing. Rape is about power. A rapist gets their kicks from over-powering someone, not the sex act itself. Same with pedophiles.
maddy29
well, i'm not really advocating that...but, i'd sure like it if my pedophile grandfather got his dick chopped off and handed to him. And all the rapists that have raped my friends. The big bloody wound might make them think twice next time.

I think rape is about power AND sex. Or, I guess it depends on the rape. Maybe some are more about power and some are more about sex.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Mar 19 2007, 06:02 PM) *

well, i'm not really advocating that...but, i'd sure like it if my pedophile grandfather got his dick chopped off and handed to him. And all the rapists that have raped my friends. The big bloody wound might make them think twice next time.

I think rape is about power AND sex. Or, I guess it depends on the rape. Maybe some are more about power and some are more about sex.



You don't need a penis to molest, or to rape.
maddy29
Well of course not.
girlygirlgag
So what would be the point of cutting it off, without addressing the real issue?

I am a survior. I was molested as a child by a teenager, a family member and a woman (babysitter). I was raped twice, once as a teenager and once as a young woman.

I know the anger.

I also believe in punishment, but I firmly believe in rehabilitation. If you do not get to the root of the problem, the behaviors will still be exhibited.
maddy29
ggg, I said that I didn't really advocate that as a real way to solve any problems.

But I sure wouldn't mind someone chopping off my abuser's dick. I wouldn't mind if he were arrested either. Or in any way held responsible. Or if he died in a car accident. Or if someone shot him in the face.

I'm not sure about rehab for sex offenders-I just don't know much about it. I think the root of the problem is patriarchy and entitlement, so I don't know how much individual rehab could help that. But I don't know much about rehab for this stuff, so maybe it does help.
thereshegoes
huh. so do m2f's experience less sex drive?
girltrouble

she goes~ for me personally, absolutely. it's kind of more that you think about it less. the best way of thinking about it is, imagine that you are walking on a summer day (i know it's cheesy), but you walk by a flower and you notice that there are bees swarming around a flower. a couple of them buzz by you, but you go on your way. that's kind of the way i think about sex now. every now and then i think about it quite a lot, but it passes, now, before 'mones, there's no flower, the bees are swarming you, and follow where ever you go. they are kind of always there. as i said every transman has said something along the lines of, "it's like this constant. i never knew it would be like that. i'm always thinking about it." that's not to imply that transmen are creeps. far from it. i always got crushes on many of the transmen i knew because they were way more sensitive than most genny (genetic) men. that said, there were a few who were as sexist and misogynist as any genny man. lol... i guess the short answer to your question, shegoes, is yes.

ggg~ i understand what you mean about getting to the root cause and i agree, i am not the throw away the key kind of person, and i believe very deeply in rehabilitation. but--- i think our society minimizes the damage that rape does. guys think they can do it and there will be no repercussions. i think there needs to be a punishment that, for lack of a better way of putting it, hits men where i hurts. something that is such a deterant that they cannot help but think twice. i really don't think most men understand how awful it is. i just get tired of men covering for each other, and making light of it.


crazyoldcatlady
nohope, i was watching the news, and they said the first woman killed in the iraq war was native american, and that made me perk up my ears. interesting that a people so thoroughy abused by the US gov't throughout the years would join up with them. then again, what group of people HASN'T been abused by the gov't at some point?

perhaps it makes her service even more noble, that's she's doing it for the people and not the Machine.

nohope
This was the really crazy part and the part where she started saying WTF. So thsi one women was saying how she was in a breafing I guess just as they arived and the Whatever was saying "out there, that's Indian country." And that's when it struck her. She is still the enemy.

That really made me sad. And this same women was saying how much she loved the army. how she had encuredged her two sons to join and how one of them came back with all these disabilities and the VA is denying him care.

I mean on all these levels this women was just betrade. It makes me so feurious...

Of course I blame society, I blame the governmnet, I blame capitalism, I blame patriarchy.... waht ever you want to call it. It just fills me with rage.

All the lies.
culturehandy
speaking of blaming the victims of rape
greenbean
And then there's this story ....which would be a happy one except the guy got off with just a slap on the wrist. WTF indeed.
culturehandy
What a prick. At least someone stepped up to the plate and said something to this woman...only a year though, who knows how many women he was succesful in doing this to.
pollystyrene
BCP Prices Going Up On College Campuses
candycane_girl
Ugh, that's just ridiculous. I guess I'm lucky when it comes to birth control. I'm covered under my mom's drug plan till I'm 24 so it's free for me.

My only question is, if this is happening because of fewer drug companies willing to offer discounts, wouldn't it affect a slew of other drugs as well?
kelkello
*throws up hands in exasperation*
Keep your fucking laws out of my fucking uterus. My statement is neither eloquent or original, but it's all I can think to say about that.
lilacwine13
According to the article, it has to do with the drug companies not recieving subsidies from Medicaid to provide college campuses with certain drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if this is happening in other places as well, since we all know how much this administration loves fetuses.


South Carolina can go to hell. (Not everyone, just the idiots who think that seeing an ultrasound isn't going to traumatize someone who is going through enough as it is.)
lunasol
*thread crash!*




New Drive Afoot to Pass Equal Rights Amendment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeehaw! I love the new Congress!
thingsarenice
Not quite as bad as some of the things that have been posted, but disturbing just the same:
http://www.parentdish.com/2006/10/25/briti...ipper-pole-toy/
kittenb
thingsarenice - or for the love of goddess...there is nothing wrong with a stripper pole but I cannot believe that the stupid company wouldn't think twice about making it look like a child's toy. Jeesh.
skinwithoutscars
so, don imus is a douchebag. i've always held this as a vague opinion, without knowing a lot about him. but it's been confirmed. imus called the rutgers' women's basketball team "nappy-headed hos" the other day while discussing the national women's basketball championship game.

read about it here: http://mediamatters.org/items/200704040011
nickclick
he keeps apologizing but also saying that his show is a 'comedy' show. maybe he should try being funny next time.
culturehandy
Well I guess I could go on TV and say that he is a dickless prick, under the guise that it is "funny". Asshat.
ginger_kitty
I don't know anything about him, never heard of him until this stuff came up. But from watching on the news I have determined he is an asshole.
culturehandy
So, Don Imus has been fired by CBS because of his comments.
kittenb
Where/what is the feminist response to the Duke lacrosse charges being dismissed and the subsequent public naming/shaming of the accuser? I am all over the place about this. It is being handeled entirley differently than the Kobe Bryant case dismissal. Now it seems that all of the angry men in this world have a black female face to pin a whole heap of rage onto.
It is not just her that is being attacked in my opinion. I don't think I will ever know the truth of this case. However, the web searches that I have done brought up link after link talking about the epidemic of false rape charges that men have to face.
Is anybody really scared about this whole thing?
ginger_kitty
kittenb, I am confused about the whole situation. I am not sure any of us will ever understand what happened. It's truly unfortunate. The public just isn't going to get all the details.

I was pissed the other day though, b/c people I work with were discussing the case, and a guy I work with said, "Everytime a woman cries rape, everyone automatically assumes she is telling the truth." I was shocked and angry. To me it often seems women who admit to being raped are always questioned...'did she really get raped'....I can't figure out what we can do to change that attitude, and but it's pretty sad.
hoosierman78
QUOTE(ginger_kitty @ Apr 16 2007, 11:31 PM) *
kittenb, I am confused about the whole situation. I am not sure any of us will ever understand what happened. It's truly unfortunate. The public just isn't going to get all the details.

I was pissed the other day though, b/c people I work with were discussing the case, and a guy I work with said, "Everytime a woman cries rape, everyone automatically assumes she is telling the truth." I was shocked and angry. To me it often seems women who admit to being raped are always questioned...'did she really get raped'....I can't figure out what we can do to change that attitude, and but it's pretty sad.


Whether or not the accuser was actually raped, we will probably never know. There have been countless versions of what happened that night. I suspect, somewhere in the middle of it all lies the truth, but it's impossible to say. If the Duke players are in fact innocent, then I am glad they have been publicly cleared. Even if it was over a year later. However, if they in fact did assault this woman, well, I can only hope that the saying 'what comes around goes around' still rings true. Based on the evidence and witness accounts that have been made public, I have my doubts about whether she was raped, but I'm also pretty confident that something went terribly wrong at that party.

As for rape victims, I don't think I can answer the question about the attitude. On one hand, if a woman comes to the authorities claiming to be raped, they have a responsibility to take her seriously. If she knows her attacker, bring him in for questioning, gather evidence and go from there. There is always a presumption of innocence until proven guilty. It needs to go both ways. In saying that, I mean that anyone reporting a rape should be treated as though they were raped until proven otherwise. Anyone accused of rape should be treated as though they did not do it until proven otherwise (at which time they should have their dick cut off and fed to them).

As a guy, there have been many times that I have adjusted my behavior based on the situation. I generally don't wait to be told to stop doing something, because I can usually tell by body language that the woman I was with was getting uncomfortable. I've also stopped things if I felt she was so intoxicated that she wouldn't remember what happened until we woke up naked the next morning. In my opinion, if guys don't want to be falsely accused of rape, they need to not put themselves into situations where that could happen. I'm sure there will be the odd woman scorned that could accuse a completely innocent person of something as awful as rape - if for no other reason than to ruin their reputation in the community. That type of malice exists in some people, though I would tend to believe that it is a very, very rare thing.

As a whole, the Duke Lacrosse situation has left me with a very low opinion regarding the 'justice' system.
nickclick
i'm down with rapists being fed their own dirty dicks. then i'll have some faith in the justice system.

this whole thing highlights the sad truth that if you've been raped, you need a goddamn mountain of evidence to prove it, especially if you're poor and you're accusing someone rich.

whether or not in this case a rape occured, fact is many others have, and many priveledged rapists are getting away with them. many many more than cases of false rape accusations, i'd bet.
skinwithoutscars
kittenb, yes, i find it all very scary. i'm horrified that the accuser has been named, horrified that it's been repeated and broadcast, and very scared for her safety and well-being. i cannot imagine what she is going through. i've purposely not read much on the subject - it's a bit too stomach-churning for me - but i'm willing to bet she was victimized in some way. whether or not the men initially charged are the right ones, her attackers are free either way, and now she has to deal with all this backlash on top of it . . . yes, i'm scared for her.

as far as the feminist response, i've seen a lot in the blogosphere . . . and that's it.

i cannot understand why people think women would falsely cry rape; at least i cannot believe the rate at which people seem to believe it happens. if people had any idea what making a rape charge involves for the victim, i think they would be far less likely to assume anyone does such a thing lightly.
maddy29
nickclick-to add to what you said-if you are poor, and black, you probably would need a videotape of the entire thing, and even then I doubt people would believe. It's sickening. Whether or not this woman in this specific case lied, the way the whole thing has been treated is just awful.

Is there anything being done for this woman? Any kind of support or help being given to her? Any feminist group helping out? I just wonder, what happens now, for her? After the Kobe Bryant assault case, that woman's life was so screwed up, and of course I see Kobe the fucking hero on commercials for the playoffs now and it makes me INSANE!

And people ask why women don't report rape. You'd have to be kinda crazy to report it, honestly!!! They really do work hard to make sure that women who report will have their lives ruined. Nice.
thereshegoes
yeah, i have to say, besides the feminist blogs, i haven't seen anything affirmative.

i just have trouble believing a poor black woman, putting herself through school stripping, was treated with respect by a group of wealthy white males who hired her so that they could get off sexually from her watching her take off her clothes to make her ends meet, considering she fled the party without her nails. even IF they did not force coitus on her, and that's a big IF, they are not heroes. i know it's not against the law for rich white men to hire poor strippers of color, but it's gross. it appeals to too many oppressor/oppressed ickity-blech for me to not look upon these dudes with scorn.
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