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kittenb
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kittenb
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culturehandy
Anarch, I've read about things like that as well, that a woman's body, even during rape, will produce a lubricant. It is a natural response. I can imagine some horrible, evil defense lawyer using that.

*shudders*
Lilith
OK thanks didn't need to see that just now.

What. The. Fuck?
anarch
Lilith, it's just a fundie who loves photoshopping. There's a "Report" button down on the bottom left of each post, in the same column as each user's name. Click on it to report objectionable content to the lounge moderator, whose job it is to remove such things. The more of us who report these things, the better.
faerietails2
He can't be put on ignore because the account's been deleted. Hopefully his remaining posts will be gone by tomorrow.

In other news...what's all this about lubricant and rape and lawyers???! I missed something here...
anarch
Right. I just read the conversation in the troll thread and thought, Oh, oops. Thanks for the correction.

Yeah, the thing about rape & lubricant was something I'd read on another site: one guy said something about whether a woman could have an orgasm during rape, somebody else jumped on him (me too, in my head - that's the "outrage" part), and then the first guy talked about having been a rape counsellor and that some degree of physiological response (like natural lube, and, more rarely, orgasm) was sometimes reported. Which does NOT equal consent, but not enough people know that.

I guess it's only tangentially related to Feminist Outrage, but I posted it here partly because it sounds like damned important information for more women to know, and partly because the whole idea pisses me off - that women have to deal with this shit, any of it, but especially the cognitive dissonance resulting from a body that's just protecting itself from damage.
Jezebel
QUOTE(sukouyant @ Oct 30 2007, 03:53 PM) *
I find this terrifying. A woman was gang raped at gunpoint and Judge Deni stated that this case "minimizes true rape cases and demeans women who are really raped." because the woman who was raped worked in the sex industry. So she let the guy go and he orchestrated another gang rape four days later. You can read more about it in these articles I got in my mail today.

When is rape at gunpoint not rape? When it's 'theft of services'

Has already set a disturbing precedent:
In a nutshell: sex worker in Philadelphia agrees business with one client and is then gang-raped at gunpoint. Judge throws out all the assault and sexual assault charges, and treats it as 'theft of services'.

The defendant was charged in an identical incident involving a 23-year-old woman four days later, [district attorney] DeSipio said. Neither woman knew the other and both told identical stories. The other men involved in the attack couldn’t be identified.
DeSipio was so stunned by Deni’s ruling in the first case that he refused to present the second one.
“I wouldn’t demean her that way,” he said of the second victim, calling the proceedings “a farce.” Judge Deni then threw out the second case for failure to prosecute.
To complain (politely):
Complaints form for the Judicial Conduct Board of Pennsylvania
Judge Teresa Carr Deni: 001 215 683 7223
Kenneth Shear, Chair of the Philadelphia Bar Association: 001 215 238 6338


Outrage for the day--Judge Deni was re-elected yesterday. Even though it was a retention vote and it's really hard to lose those, it still sucks that she gets a new term.
sukouyant
QUOTE(Jezebel @ Nov 7 2007, 11:17 AM) *
Outrage for the day--Judge Deni was re-elected yesterday. Even though it was a retention vote and it's really hard to lose those, it still sucks that she gets a new term.



Ug. I hope the protests surrounding her despicable judgment don't stop because of it. She is so clearly unfit.

There's at least one women's group asking whether the race of the young woman made it into her skewed judgment too (the survivor is a 20 y/o black woman) based on how easy it is for her to dehumanize difference.
faerietails2
Oh. Shit. Looks like I'll be travelling to Philly to protest after all, then. I'll let you all know when I hear about the big protest. I talked to an organizer yesterday, and she said if Deni was reelected there would be a huge event. mad.gif

anarch, eek! I'm glad you brought up that topic. I'd never even thought of that!
dj-bizmonkey
well our justice system may be totally f-ed when it comes to rape victims, but we'd all better thank our lucky stars we don't live in Saudi Arabia, where they whip and imprison rape victims. my bf pointed out this story to me. i'm shocked that my ire isn't melting the keyboard right now.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/...ctim/index.html
culturehandy
Wow Saudi Arabia sounds like a great place to live. Disgusting.
dj-bizmonkey
what pisses me off even more is how much the conservative media demonized afghanistan and the taliban for its treatment of women while simultaneously stroking the back and holding the hand of saudi arabia. not to mention ignoring countries where FGM is still commonplace. ugh i hate how they try and tug at your heart strings on one issue and totally ignore another. oh yeah, as if the bush administration suddenly gave two shits about women's rights. it was just a ploy to get people pumped up about the first round of warfare.
anarch
Yeah, I was reading how a big cheese in the Canadian government went ahead and called it "barbaric" while the US reaction (Condi, I think) was very milquetoast. "Tut tut!", basically.
pepper
it's the tail wagging the dog. or is that the Ass wagging the dog. huh. the media spin on stuff is enough to make your head really spin.
mouse
not sure if this is too lightweight of a topic to put here, but i can't figure out a better thread (please suggest if you can). what do you guys think of katharine heigl's calling "knocked up" sexist? she says, in vanity fair:

"“It was hard for me to love [Apatow’s] movie” because it’s “a little sexist…it paints the women as shrews, as humorless and uptight, and it paints the men as goofy, fun-loving guys.”

there was a really, really interesting article in the new yorker about this exact topic, about how the stereotype of romantic comedy has changed drastically since the days of cary grant and katharine hepburn. the men are now goofy manboys who are struggling at life but basically good natured, funny, and loving, where the women are the ones who are successful and have their lives together, but are basically humourless--super intelligent, but ultimately pretty cold and lifeless. it went on to say that in the older days of romance stories, the women were equal partners in wit to them men--perhaps not in social status or success because of the nature of the times, but they were PARTNERS or matches as opposed to saviors or reprimanders. i have to say, i haven't seen knocked up for these very reasons. i'm curious but i was hesitant to actually go see it--as much as i love apatow and his humour and past projects, his neo-family-values schtick is a teensy bit unsettling to me.

everythign i've read about heigl is pretty admirable. she seems to have a good head on her shoulders and seems like the kind of a-list actress who would actually admit to being a feminist. it's really great to hear her pointing this out since nobody else that i've seen except the new yorker has had the balls to say it in the mainstream media.

HOWEVER--she got a cool $6 million out of the project, and it rocketed her to super stardom. is that hypocritical? to what point does ethics and politics affect the need to pay our bills--and what happens when it goes way beyond paying bills and just becoming a millionaire?

thoughts?
neurotic.nelly
And what is funny is...that the Saudi Royal Family are in bed with the U.S.A government and/or the CORPORITOCRACY(?)...our government cares not about those women nor the women on our own soil! But, about the resources in that country, PERIOD!!! The facts of that article will not stop our government from doing business with this Saudi Royal Family and Saudi government, regardless of how the people feel. And that pisses me off! Let us not forget that more women in the U.S.A are killed by their lovers, husbands, boyfriends etc than women killed legally by their lovers, husbands, and boyfriends in all of the Middle East!!! FYI, there exists a war on women!, and all women are under attack, and we are divided and conquered. Just my two cents.
candycane_girl
Mouse, it's funny that you mention the Heigl thing because I just read about it on ONTD and the comments mentioned how this movie made her asking price jump from $300k per film to $6 million, as you mentioned.

I saw Knocked Up because I had seen The 40 Year Old Virgin and Superbad and I thought they were hilarious. I was also a fan of Apatow's show Undeclared so I figured Knocked Up would be funny as well.

Unfortunately I just wasn't that impressed. You can see the frustration that Heigl's character has with Seth Rogen's character (I don't even remember the names) because he's basically just a pothead loser who thinks he can survive on like, $900 a year (I can't remember the exact amount but there's a scene where he mentions it).

I don't think they made her character look uptight, just more reasonable and sensible in comparison to Rogen's immature and irresponsible character. But there was definitely a disparity in the wit, the guys get all the good funny lines while the women just stand there looking frustrated.

It was kind of a lame concept to begin with (I don't know if I'm being naive but how many people would really attempt a relationship with someone just because they got pregnant from a one night stand?) and it just fell apart.

I don't know if she's really being hypocritical but she is kind of biting the hand that fed her. I mean, I know she's already popular on Grey's Anatomy but I think it's a bit rude to do a project and then badmouth it later.

The millionaire thing has always bothered me. It's not enough that these people get paid ridiculous amounts and yeah, maybe it can be hard work but it's not like they're brain surgeons or anything. But what gets me even more is that once they are famous they tend to get sent all sorts of gifts and clothing from designers! So these people who already have a ridiculous amount of money end up with free stuff? Excuse me? I know that's not really a feminist issue but it bugs me.
chachaheels
Personally, Heigl is more than entitled to express her (very astute and correct) observations about the film she made. Even if she was paid 6 million. Even if she were to have been paid quite a lot more. There's nothing that says she's not allowed to state some obvious conclusions about the film no matter how much she's paid...and perhaps the outcome will be that more people will see her point (and that might bring about some change). Anyway, if it encourages people to develop a critical eye about what they're watching unquestioningly, so be it.

She is correct. The film is sexist in the way she describes. And when you compare the average rom/com of today (including the Heigl film, which fits into the category as a typical modern one) with the Cary Grant and (hell anybody...Grace Kelly, Katherine Hepburn, Rosalind Russel...any of the women he made films with) there are some glaring differences in the quality of people we're being shown making up "the couple".

So it's not like Heigl would have been paid a lesser amount if she chose to make a romantic comedy that featured her in a role like Hepburn's or Russel's, matched with a man who's her equal. Those films aren't being made! It's very likely the Apatow film was the best of that romantic comedy kind of film being made today (and it's true: there have been quite a lot worse than Knocked Up). Just because she was paid six figures for it doesn't mean she should suppress her criticism.
candycane_girl
Yes but obviously she would have read the script before filming. Surely she could have seen how the script was going to play out and if she really thought it was that bad then she should have dropped out of the project.

She's also been complaining about her character on Grey's Anatomy. I know that's a bit different because they sign contracts and agree to stay on the show for x number of seasons and I can understand being annoyed at the writing but it really seems like she's just complaining about everything she's been a part of, despite the fact that without them she wouldn't be where she is now.
edie52
While I find the clichés she was talking about annoying, I'm not entirely convinced that the film was sexist because of them. I would probably find it more sexist if they men were portrayed as more successful, serious, and reasonable, and the women were painted as dim, unambitious, and completely out-of-touch with reality.

So, yes, it is sexist in the sense that it stereotypes based on gender, but doesn't virtually every Hollywood film? (Though I haven't seen enough rom-coms to have noticed this particular trend.) Not that this makes it okay, but I can think of so many more sexist films. However, she did say "a little sexist."

I still think Heigl is cool for talking about it if that's how she feels, but if she felt that way going into the film I think it is hypocritical to participate in a huge project that promotes what you think are sexist stereotypes.
nickclick
QUOTE(mouse @ Dec 3 2007, 11:32 PM) *
"“It was hard for me to love [Apatow’s] movie” because it’s “a little sexist…it paints the women as shrews, as humorless and uptight, and it paints the men as goofy, fun-loving guys.”

maybe she's just "a little" feminist.

rolleyes.gif
mouse
oh SNAP, nick! laugh.gif
likeanyother
QUOTE(mouse @ Dec 4 2007, 04:32 AM) *
...there was a really, really interesting article in the new yorker about this exact topic, about how the stereotype of romantic comedy has changed drastically since the days of cary grant and katharine hepburn....
thoughts?


Mouse, do you happen to remember which issue this article was in?
faerietails2
Re: Katherine Heigl's remarks

HA! Feminist my ass...

"(I didn't mean it that way!) It was the best filming experience of my career!" Puuuuke.
lananans
I saw that today too. Total backtracking.
kittenb
You know, is seems very possible that she enjoyed to experience of making the movie even though she is conflicted aboutt he final product. I don't see what the big deal is or how her making sure the people she enjoyed working with knows that she did like working with them makes her less feminist.

Here is something that made me laugh today: Man Finally Put in Charge of the Struggleing Feminist Movement.
Everybody knows what the Onion is, right?
Jezebel
The New York Post's headline about Ike Turner dying was: Ike 'Beats' Tina to Death. Cause domestic violence is such a laugh riot.

The New York Post is Super Classy
candycane_girl
I wasn't sure if this belonged here but I"m a feminist and I'm outraged so I'm just going to say it anyway. I was looking at some natural home birth and water birth videos on You Tube and I could not get over the number of people who 1. insist that childbirth is disgusting and somehow unnatural and 2. the number of people who were so completely rude in the way they insist that childbirth should only happen at a hospital!

I understand that if something goes wrong it can be comforting to have medical expertise right there but at the same time, these idiots act as though it's impossible to give birth outside of a hospital when in reality, the whole hospital birth idea hasn't been around for very long.

Also, I know that Oh No They Didn't! is full of stupid immature posters but I couldn't believe the reaction to a recent post about how our culture readily accepts sexism because we're so saturated with it.

The article is here if anyone is interested.
hoosierman78
QUOTE(Jezebel @ Dec 16 2007, 11:24 PM) *
The New York Post's headline about Ike Turner dying was: Ike 'Beats' Tina to Death. Cause domestic violence is such a laugh riot.

The New York Post is Super Classy


"The New York Post, America's oldest, daily published piece of bullshit." - unknown artist

Never knew much about the Post, other than the quote above that is the beginning to a rap song. Artist & title escape me right now. Guess they knew what they were talking about though. I'd expect something like that from the Enquirer or something along those lines, not something that pretends to be a real news source.
crazyoldcatlady
overheard on old hometown radio:

asshole morning DJ #1: "After a woman gets an episotomy, after childbirth... have you ever heard about something called 'the courtesy stitch'?"
asshole morning DJ #2: "Is that when they sew up the woman's mouth, too?"

hilarity ensues.




omfg. when i heard this, i was outraged, OUTRAGED. and then i was depressed for like, hours, as i was convinced that there is no hope for this world.
yess
I have been noticing an increase in the use of the word "douchebag". I'm just wondering why? Isn't it kind of an offensive word? I know why I don't use it and it's because I think about what a douchebag is and I don't think it's right to call somebody that. I was having a convo with an ex the other day and he kept calling someone a bitch and finally I said "Can you please stop with the name-calling?" and he said "Well, I use names for guys, too." to which I replied "Oh yeah? Like what?" and he exclaimed "DOUCHEBAG!!" I informed him that almost all of his name-calling words had a direct representation of women and that is not right. But anyway, the word seems to be preety poplular among men and women alike so I was wondering if I was missing something? Is douchebag a good thing?
kittenb
I asked a coworker about the word douchebag once. She was one of the strongest most radical feminists I have ever met and her response was great; "Well, I figure douches are actually really bad for women. So when I call something/someone a douchebag I am saying it is bad for women."
So since then I have used the word prety freely.

As for bitch, I know that I use that word way too often but mostly in play. For example, my best friend and I are pretty mean when we are trying to motivate each other to work out. So calling him a little bitch is not uncommon (I swear I do love my best friend very much.) However, when a guy really upsets me I try not to use the word bitch as it is considered a female term and I don't like the idea that calling a man a woman is an insult.
culturehandy
I always use the word douchebag. It's one of my fave's right now.

Kitten, that is a fantastic reposnse from your coworker!!!
banshee
i don't know that this is outrage so much as it is annoyance...

is anyone else utterly annoyed by the predictable response to clinton's emotional display at that interview today?

the media jumped on it so quickly... and already the typical sexist stereotypes are re-emerging to claim that because she is a woman and showed a hint of emotion/vulnerability somehow this makes her less qualified to lead. and you know the other candidates are going to jump on the bandwagon to trash her...

i'm not the hugest fan of clinton... but all this talk irritates me nonetheless.
pollystyrene
Really Banshee? The report I heard (granted, it was NPR) made it seem like she's *finally* showing some real emotion, something voters can identify with. Whether it's more sexist to criticize her for being an emotional woman, or being surprised that she's a woman who shows very little emotion, I don't know.

I'm not a huge fan of her either- I think she's very polarizing and while she may not make as many stupid decisions as Bush did/will continue to make for the next 378 days, 20 hours, 19 minutes and 5 seconds (phew!) I think she'll just end up playing as many political games/backroom deals as just about any of her predecessors.

But I did feel a little bad for her yesterday.

ETA: Just to clarify, if she did become the Democratic nominee, I'd still vote for her, though. It's going to be an interesting election and as long as the Republicans don't win (pretty sure they have a snowball's chance in hell) quite a historic one.
banshee
i'm sure the response is going to vary between media outlets. NPR is definately going to portray her in a more positive light than some of the other networks. ABC interviewed edwards about her response and he said something to effect of the country needing a "strong" leader... as if you can't be a woman with emotion and be a strong leader. she has such a reputation as an ice queen, you would think that her display would help her to that effect, but then, we all saw what happened to howard dean.

it sounds like at the same rally she was heckled by men screaming "iron my shirt!" how astoundingly original! ::rolls eyes::

its distubring. i'm reading faludi's backlash and its disturbing how many parallels i'm seeing between america in the eighties and america in 2008. all from a book that was written over ten years ago!


i agree with you, pollystyrene, while she's not my favorite, i'll still vote for her if she wins the primary.
pollystyrene
Farking double post!
pollystyrene
Gawd, I can't believe John Edwards would say that. As a politician, I believe it, but as a person who seems as nice as he does....does he say his wife isn't strong when she cries about having cancer? blink.gif

ETA: Oops, that wasn't supposed to post yet. Read the article about the hecklers- good to hear she actually addressed them rather than just smiling robotically through it and ignoring them.
banshee
i think she handled the thing really well.

although, on the daily show, they showed a clip of an interview with some republican/conservative pundit (can't remember who) who claims that she won new hampshire because she faked tears and the women voters felt sorry for her. someone else said something to the effect of "the ice queen's melting."

nice way to discredit a woman's success.
crinoline
good link candycane girl!
"Women's inferiority - in fact, their malevolence - is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they're sporting burkas," wrote Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator Joss Whedon on a website recently. "I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards... Women are weak, manipulative, somehow morally unfinished. The logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are expendable... There is a staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted."
...Amen.
ambersienna maria
nice quote.

I can't stand clinton. She slips in the polls then o, wait, tears!
just seemed like a pub stunt.
they all seem... fake.
and i know i'm insanely jaded, but big corps just buy off the govt. anyway.
beh.
hoosierman78
I can't even begin to express my contempt for this piece of shit Marine. First, he rapes another Marine, then the 'brass' try to get her to drop it. When she won't, he kills her while she is 8-1/2 months pregnant in an apparently extremely brutal manner. The chicken shit mother fucker then gives a note to his wife, so she can give it to authorities to let them know where he burried the bodies. I am all for innocent until proven guilty, but if he actually did what all evidence that is currently being released indicates he did, I hope someone finds him, cuts off his dick & balls, then makes him eat them. After that, turn him over to the young woman's family. In the end, I guess a needle in the arm will have to suffice, but one can imagine, right. Here is the latest link on the story, with the area sherriff urging the chicken shit mother fucker to turn himself in.
hellotampon
I don't really know where to put this. I feel like making a Feminist Bingo game for some of my friends and I've thought of these:

I believe in equality, etc, but I'm not a feminist
But I like men!
I like being a woman!
But I like wearing pink/flirting/etc
We're equal now
I don't want people to think I'm a manhating lesbian
I don't want men and women to be the same
I don't think women should be better than men
I'm a humanist/my own name/some other label
sometimes one sex is just better at certain things than the other and I accept that

any suggestions?
deschatsrouge
Hey tampon, how about:
you shave?! How can you call yourself a feminist?
grenadine
for me, this whole democratic primary has become a source of feminst outrage because of how much (negative) has been made of Clinton's gender. whomever you support, you've got to be disgusted at things like hecklers yelling "iron my shirt" at her. Robin Morgan wrote a piece on it that pretty much sums it up: http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html
faerietails2
Saudis Arrest, Strip Search Woman for Having a Business Meeting With a Man

WTF?!

grenadine, all the shit about Hillary's gender has pissed me off too. i was keeping track of a lot of it for a while because i thought it would be awesome to write a paper (or a book, considering all the bullshit there is!) about the media and sexism in this election. it's ridiculous.
hellotampon
QUOTE(deschatsrouge @ Feb 5 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Hey tampon, how about:
you shave?! How can you call yourself a feminist?


excellent!

I guess I could also add, "you're not voting for hillary? but she's a woman!"
kittenb
QUOTE
I don't want people to think I'm a manhating lesbian


A little off-topic but can I just say that sometimes I am a "guy-hating" feminist and proud of it? It is the "guy culture" that seems to feed all of the problems. Men, I love.
culturehandy
I remember when Belinda Stronach was running to be leader of the Conservative Party of Canada, and the media was reporting on the cutesie little outfits she was wearing, and people were calling into radio shows saying the same sexist things. It was disgusting.

a vagina does not preclude you from politics! Though some feel that way. Morons.
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