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i_am_jan
I like Obama, was probably going to vote for him.

But ooh... I didn't like it when he pulled out Hillary's chair for her at the table the other day. Blatantly condescending, cocky & arrogant what was that was. did you all see that?

It made me feel like he wasn't catering to my vote. He was playing to his male voters. As usual, same ol, same ol.

His facade fell away for me in that moment.

He busted a very, very, very status quo move. that's not change, my friend.

Screw it I'm voting for Hillary no matter what. this country needs shaped up in a way that definitely involves a woman president ~ for me anyway. I think I'm going to 'GO WITH WHAT I KNOW' this time girls.
tankgirl
QUOTE(i_am_jan @ Feb 6 2008, 02:46 PM) *
I like Obama, was probably going to vote for him.

But ooh... I didn't like it when he pulled out Hillary's chair for her at the table the other day. Blatantly condescending, cocky & arrogant what was that was. did you all see that?



or maybe he was trying to be polite.
grenadine
i don't dispute that there may be reasons to vote for Obama, but such a huge part of this election screams "i am uncomfortable voting for a woman!" that it makes me cringe. most of the people i talk to are either fuzzy on why Obama's so great or are voting against Hillary rather than FOR anything or anyone. that, to me, is not a politics of hope, but of discouragement.

there's a great post over at bitch, ph.d on how sexism plays into it. basically, it's just not cool or sexy to vote for hillary when you can strike a blow for civil rights AND look good doing it. and though i support demographic change in the White House in either direction, i think it's a damn shame that we've allowed so much denigration of women into this race.
crazyoldcatlady
QUOTE
or maybe he was trying to be polite.


lots of men can claim they're trying to be polite, but at the end of the day, when some guy i don't know kisses me on the cheek, or opens my door for no other reason than i'm female, or calls me honey, or pulls my chair out, it's *sexist*. do not hide behind the guise of chivalry, do not claim ignorance.
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(crinoline @ Jan 10 2008, 03:14 PM) *
good link candycane girl!
"Women's inferiority - in fact, their malevolence - is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they're sporting burkas," wrote Buffy the Vampire Slayer creator Joss Whedon on a website recently. "I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards... Women are weak, manipulative, somehow morally unfinished. The logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are expendable... There is a staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted."
...Amen.

Truly,

"There is a staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted." Yup. It's hypermasculine.

In the article, linked by candycanegirl, 'A Culture Saturated in Sexism', at the end of the article she states that, "we're all pretty sad, if you ask me." She was talking about the contradictions in the media around women, sexism, our bodies, etc. And obviously, these contradictions extend out to individuals as well.

Since we are socialized under a patriarchal western society that is inherently and intrinsically sexist, we must ask ourselves, "How have I internalized sexism? How do I perpetuate it on myself and other women around me?" If we sincerely start from here, we can purge it from ourselves and our world.

BTW:

I think Obama was just being polite, I mean really. And even if it was some patronizing gesture made on his part, the fact is that they are both taking low blows on each other.
culturehandy
In my opinion, I don't think that Obama was thinking, okay how can I be sexist. What I do think is that he was being showy for media. He sees it as being polite and chivalrous, and is showing the media what a courteous person he is.
crazyoldcatlady
i don't think he [obama] was intending to be sexist, but it is a sexist act in many people's book. i would like to think he'd be hypervigiliant in these types of situations, but i'm not going to crucify him over it by any means. i don't think this implies anything about his ability to be president. it is what it is.

but it just brings up the question (that nelly and crinoline touch on) is how many sexist things go down in society that are percieved as the norm, or accepted without thought? i suppose you constantly have to ask yourself, "if i were a guy, would he have done that?"

[for example, a long time ago i hosted a guest speaker. he was an older gentleman, and afteward a few of my male colleagues and i went up to thank him for coming and he kissed ME on the cheek. he gave a nice sturdy handshake to the men. i tried to tell myself it was because he was old school and didn't know any better, but the wholething just did not and still (5 years later) does not sit well with me.]
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(crazyoldcatlady @ Feb 7 2008, 05:55 AM) *
but it just brings up the question (that nelly and crinoline touch on) is how many sexist things go down in society that are percieved as the norm, or accepted without thought? i suppose you constantly have to ask yourself, "if i were a guy, would he have done that?"

[for example, a long time ago i hosted a guest speaker. he was an older gentleman, and afteward a few of my male colleagues and i went up to thank him for coming and he kissed ME on the cheek. he gave a nice sturdy handshake to the men. i tried to tell myself it was because he was old school and didn't know any better, but the wholething just did not and still (5 years later) does not sit well with me.]

That situation would've been annoying for me too, crazyoldcatlady.

In that situation, I probably would've followed up the kiss on the cheek with a firm handshake b/c when I give men really firm handshakes, some men are really caught off guard by it. I give women firm handshakes too. I guess I just like firm handshakes.
neurotic.nelly
double post.
why is my computer running slow, it never does this, shit!

tankgirl
Assuming that he is sexist just because he pulled a chair out for her is pushing it. The fact that people would strain so far to think it is sexist shows me that they are in fact sexist. I'm not attacking you specifically crazyoldcatlady, so please don't think that.

There is nothing "wrong" with anyone pulling a chair out for someone else. I am a woman and I have done it for both men and women, and I wasn't thinking of being sexist or not, because it isn't a sexist action, it is being polite.
erinjane
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~dawndba/4500Oppression.html

Read this to see why chair pulling out and door opening can be oppressive. It's an excellent article.
i_am_jan
Chivalry is a front. that's the prob I have with it. It's an easy thing to do to look great, without really actually doing anything.

and it puts the female in a position to say "oh thank you. what a gentleman you are." any guy can do it. and he can be can be ~ far from ~ a 'gentleman'. It's an easy way to look good, get a thank you, a little pat on the back from society, a little positive reinforcement. Good boy helps out princess so she doesn't have to get her hands dirty? (then turns around and and continues the 'locker room talk' with his boys over beers and strippers.)

Well, I'd like a little positive reinforcement once in a while too. why don't you let me open your door for you, gentlemen? oh. because it's offensive to you...you have the power.

there's really not many places where a gal can do the same sort of thing for a guy and have him go "why thank you. what a gracious thing to do." there's really no positive reinforcement for ALL, only for the boys. Now if it worked both ways, but it doesn't. I have actually tried to let a guy get off the elevator first at work, but every time, the guy has insisted I go first and rather than sit there and argue "no, YOU" i just sort of shrugged it off and got out, didn't say thanks though...they do that for THEM, not for ME.

also, it's simply too risky in my opinion to do it to Hillary Clinton. it just smelled. to me, it came off as egotistical, inconsiderate, and I believe a truly progressive man would've hesitated to do it out of respect for the wishes many women have expressed to not have it done). And he knew she was put in a position to accept gracefully rather than risk looking like a bitch for saying something.

Everybody's got their own opinions, I do respect those of my girls here on this board. but don't pull my chair out for me, guys. If you'd like to do something nice for me, can I pick it out? Can you like stick up for me when one of your boys starts bad-mouthing women or something, maybe not throw in on that once in a while? cuz now that's something I could appreciate. and it seems a bit more 'sincere.' but I got the door. And the chair. and I got the power so save that for yo momma.
crinoline
That is a very interesting article, and it makes some good points about how pervasive and subtle oppression is in our society. It is true that treating women as though we are incapable of doing things contributes to the myth of the "weak" female. I can also relate to the problem with guys who are truly assholes getting praise for being "chivalrous", which requires little to no thought/effort on their part. If I tried to do something like that for a man, I would either be judged as bitchy or "cute".

However, where I grew up these behaviors are absolutely REQUIRED of men. It is the way a man shows his respect for an individual woman and women in general. I have been walking into a store, the man in front of me did not hold the door open for me, and another guy stopped this man and berated him for not showing respect. If a man is seated on a bus and a woman is standing, he will often offer his seat. It is a cultural thing, and I can say that I would not even consider dating a man who was not "chivalrous". A man who does not do these things for any woman he comes across is considered rude and immature.

In the case of Obama and Clinton, from a southern female perspective, I think it would have been more offensive for him NOT to have pulled out her chair. It would have given the message that because Hilary is in a position of power she is not a "real" woman and does not deserve courtesy and respect.
erinjane
It's definitely a cultural thing. I don't mind people holding the doors open for me when I really need the help or if someone else, man, woman, or otherwise reaches the door before I do. What I do mind is when someone (so far always men) rush to open a door for me when I clearly have no need for them to do that for me...my hands are free, I was at the door before them...so what's the point? It just ends up pissing me off because it make me feel like they think I'm too weak to do it or something. I like what Frye says in that article; help me with something I need help with, like the laundry, or a paper, or the dishes. Don't help me open a door when I really don't need the help. It sends the message to me that you think I'm weak and less able than you.
crazyoldcatlady
QUOTE
Assuming that he is sexist just because he pulled a chair out for her is pushing it. The fact that people would strain so far to think it is sexist shows me that they are in fact sexist. I'm not attacking you specifically crazyoldcatlady, so please don't think that.

in the grand spectrum of misogyny, pulling out the chair is a venial sin, not mortal (i.e. iron my shirt. which i still think is HIGH-larious.)
AND, because gender is a factor in the election (sigh), of course it's going to be blown out of proportion. but it goes back to, if hillary were a guy, would he have pulled out her chair? probably not. but i think this speaks more to society than obama himself.

QUOTE
Chivalry is a front. that's the prob I have with it. It's an easy thing to do to look great, without really actually doing anything.

and it puts the female in a position to say "oh thank you. what a gentleman you are." any guy can do it. and he can be can be ~ far from ~ a 'gentleman'. It's an easy way to look good, get a thank you, a little pat on the back from society, a little positive reinforcement. Good boy helps out princess so she doesn't have to get her hands dirty? (then turns around and and continues the 'locker room talk' with his boys over beers and strippers.)

Well, I'd like a little positive reinforcement once in a while too. why don't you let me open your door for you, gentlemen? oh. because it's offensive to you...you have the power.


i agree, iamjan. i have stood in a doorway and practically argued with some guys i didn't even know, and told them, go ahead/after you, and they would adamantly not move. 'cos there goes the entire male paradigm if godforbid he goes first.

QUOTE
In the case of Obama and Clinton, from a southern female perspective, I think it would have been more offensive for him NOT to have pulled out her chair. It would have given the message that because Hilary is in a position of power she is not a "real" woman and does not deserve courtesy and respect.

but both are northerners....?
it could very well be cultural, but then it's a damned if he did or damned if he didn't, b/c if he didn't, southern culture would cry foul; and since he did, he's infringed on certain feminist sensibilities.
girltrouble
wow. can i say that i am still baffled by charges that obama pulling out a chair is sexist. *shakes her head* really? i dunno. i don't want to piss busties off, but i hear that, and i have the same reaction as my gf having to listen to some of her F2M transgendered co-workers bemoaning how the were opressed because someone who didn't know them called the she. as she pointed out, there are trannys who are getting assaulted and killed while they were bitching about having not having a gender neutral bathroom they don't have to share.

maybe it's me, but there is a lack of perspective about claiming opression from a moving chair while just yesturday one of my co-workers had some porn e-mailed to her by an asshole who has harrassed every woman working at my fabrication shop, and guess what? the shop supervisor, and department supervisor said they couldn't do anything because he sent it before work. and just to give you a little back story, said asshole choked another girl who worked there, and they wouldn't call the cops for her. and a chair being pulled out is opressive? WTF?

perhaps it's just that i've held open my share of doors, and pulled out a few chairs, and as a former "northerner"one can do these things and not think that the person we've done it for is any less than an equal. i'll go even further, and say that to some people it is a sign of respect. i would suspect, as a former black man, that that was how he was raised. for me, not to open a door, say, is rude. i still do. i open them for guys and girls. even after 9+ years of life as a woman, and guys opening doors for me, it's still hard for me to be the first one thru. it's habit. no disrespect meant.


i_am_jan
QUOTE(i_am_jan @ Feb 6 2008, 07:46 PM) *
I like Obama, was probably going to vote for him.

But ooh... I didn't like it when he pulled out Hillary's chair for her at the table the other day. Blatantly condescending, cocky & arrogant what was that was. did you all see that?

It made me feel like he wasn't catering to my vote. He was playing to his male voters. As usual, same ol, same ol.

His facade fell away for me in that moment.

He busted a very, very, very status quo move. that's not change, my friend.

Screw it I'm voting for Hillary no matter what. this country needs shaped up in a way that definitely involves a woman president ~ for me anyway. I think I'm going to 'GO WITH WHAT I KNOW' this time girls.


That is the original comment I made about the chair dealie. For those of you who don't read very well and quoted me as saying Obama is sexist and are saying things like 'I'm blown away by the allegation that he's SEXIST because he pulled out a chair, bla, bla.', etc. tee hee, no. again, read the post: NOWHERE is the word SEXIST in the post. Read the post and see this. Read on to see that my point is: it made me feel as though he's not catering to my vote. When he claims to be progressive as far as women are concerned. Overlooking something as fundamental as the door thing was inconsiderate and disrespectful of many a thoughtful woman's well-noted wishes on this subject, in my humble opinion, that's all. So the 'argument' on whether he's 'sexist' or not is not an 'argument' began by me nor my discussion of the chair BS. So there's really no need to continue that argument ~ at least on my account. I didn't say he was 'sexist' nor would I say that nor do I think that. Peace and love ladies~

P.S. For someone who mentioned culture ~ i do believe there's a cultural aspect at play here. There's a feminist culture (who have documented their perspectives about this subject over and again, and that culture of feminism is being ignored, required time and again to go through this, ad nauseum. What I mean is, again, many an articulate feminist has written time and again that a fundamental aspect of a culture oppressive of women will be that that culture infantalizes women, and one of the ways to infantilize women traditionally is by giving them help opening doors, etc., blah, blah. But it's sort of irrelevant to discuss whether those sort of actions are 'sexist' or not, as there is really no concrete correct 'answer'. Whether a woman is offended by this type of thing or not will be decided by that woman individually and her alone. I have my opinion here and so do each of you, this is all. (scratches head, looks around, hmm, I *am* in the feminism thread, aren't I?, sorry, I feel as though I'm going back to basics here? I never imagined this issue would be so difficult to construe...anyone who feels she might be able to help me out here in explaining what I'm trying to say here, feel free to jump in at any time and help a sister out?)
culturehandy
I have a friend who opens doors, including car doors, for any woman he is friends or lovers with. he's not the slightest bit sexist, it's just one of the things he does.

I can very much agree with where GT is coming from.

I hold doors open for all people, does me holding a door open for a man make me sexist, or holding a door open for someone who is elderly, does that make me ageist? I'm just asking is all...not trying to start a ruckus.
pollystyrene
This is what the hub-bub is about?!?!

It's so small I could hardly see it and not just because of the wide camera angle (if anyone can find a closer version, I'd be interested in seeing it) It's not like he made some grand gesture of it. He just pulled the chair out for her. Too bad more people, men or otherwise, don't do that.

I don't get how that equals catering to the male voters. If anything, it seems like it's catering to the female voters, like "look how chivalrous I am", since there's always been that undertone of sexual attraction to him (see his vacation pictures in People magazine a few months ago.)

I understand the intellectual, academic theories of how sexist opening doors, letting someone go through first, pulling out chairs, etc. are, and I think as long as it's just made as a simple gesture from a person to a person (any combination of men/women) I don't get what the big deal is. As long as it's not done from a "you're a mere woman, I must open the door for you" perspective, who cares? I've had guys do that, where they insist on opening the doors and end up in your way more than helping. That's f-ing annoying. But otherwise, I see it as a polite gesture. After all, to make a Seinfeld reference, "we are trying to have a civilization here, people!"



Much ado about nothing, I think.
girltrouble
jan, don't take my comments personally, this charge that the chair pulling is/isn't sexist isn't limited to this thread, or even this site. as you know, busties like to delve into all things feminist. however, while you may not have explicitly said that the pulling of the chair was sexist, you certainly implied it, saying it was condesending, cocky and arrogant, using sex as the prism you viewed it thru.

crazyoldcatlady
you know, i was wondering if it was on youbtube somewhere, polly.
i don't think, personally, that it was conscious, or that he was trying to cater to anyone. i think it was knee-jerk, and i think it was ingrained.

but i think this whole convo is way bigger than hilz vs obama. it's a magnifying glass on the idonsyncracies of the male-female dynamic in society, and what's acceptible, not acceptible, and what is passively acceptible. i, uh, am still working off a 24 hr hangover, so i can't be more articulate now... back to lurk
i_am_jan
For the record, that is not the same footage I saw. that video wouldn't provoke me to think anything at all. (I can't even tell who the people are, and the whole incident moves so smoothly, not a beat was missed and nothing seems out of place.)

The footage I saw was different. the whole scene took place over a period of a few seconds...they both are standing at the table before the meeting is called to sit down. Once it's time, he verrry sloooowly pulls out the chair and then looks dead at her with a grin and waits for her reaction. She doesn't sit down right away. Her eyes widen, she looks surprised, and she gets this smile on her face and they look at each other for a second. She looks funny, like she's not sure what to say, then slowly sits down.

My opinion on whether or not this behavior is cool depends entirely on context. In the context I saw it happen, I didn't care for the behavior.
erinjane
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Feb 9 2008, 08:47 PM) *
I have a friend who opens doors, including car doors, for any woman he is friends or lovers with. he's not the slightest bit sexist, it's just one of the things he does.

I can very much agree with where GT is coming from.

I hold doors open for all people, does me holding a door open for a man make me sexist, or holding a door open for someone who is elderly, does that make me ageist? I'm just asking is all...not trying to start a ruckus.



Re-read my last post. It's not holding doors open for people that can be oppressive, but when a man goes out of his way to open a door for a woman who obviously didn't need him to go out of his way to do that.

" I don't mind people holding the doors open for me when I really need the help or if someone else, man, woman, or otherwise reaches the door before I do. What I do mind is when someone (so far always men) rush to open a door for me when I clearly have no need for them to do that for me...my hands are free, I was at the door before them...so what's the point? They end up getting in my way, and sometimes other peoples ways, just because they want to be 'nice' and help me when I clearly don't have the need for help. If i was holding a bunch of bags and couldn't open the door myself, that's a different story because then I need the help.

It just ends up pissing me off because it make me feel like they think I'm too weak to do it or something. I like what Frye says in that article; help me with something I need help with, like the laundry, or a paper, or the dishes. Don't help me open a door when I really don't need the help. It sends the message to me that you think I'm weak and less able than you."
culturehandy
Erin, my post wasn't aimed at your post, or anyone's for that matter, I was just saying.
erinjane
No worries, I didn't think it was. I wasn't trying to be confrontational or argumentative, just replying to the comment. smile.gif
culturehandy
I totally know! It's hard to interpret what one is trying to emote when replying on message boards, or via e-mail for that matter!
i_am_jan
I agree to that! I would never 'take offense' or 'be personally offended' by someone having an opinion, ha ha ha ha ha ha laugh.gif

Esp. a sister on this board? ohmy.gif

Just the thought of that is hilarious.

Yep, it's actually refreshing to me personally when someone has an opinion. More so when it's one that's provocative enough to challenge an opinion of my own. That's just fun.

I assume most gals on this board feel exactly the same until I encounter someone who doesn't from time to time, but that's usually not my experience.
i_am_jan
I just saw what I assume to be a family in the grocery store. there was a mom, dad, two twin boys of about 6-7, and two twin girls of about 10. The boys had on identical t-shirts with 'mud-running trucks' on them, cool cool...then the two girls were all dolled up in pink jeans and identical t-shirts that said "groupie ... rock & roll 2008."

??

(okay, we get it...your kids aren't gay?) who manufactures these horrible clothes though?
olivarria
I've been noticing something about a lot of my guy family members and other guys I've known, and I wanted to know if it is just me. Do you hear a lot of guys "body-bashing" the women on TV, like it's a sport? The guys i know do it obsessively, like they are the authority on which women are too fat, tits not big enough, not pretty enough. Like every woman that comes on TV - I have actually heard them say "that women needs to put a bag over her head" because she wasn't hot enough i guess. If she doesn't make them want to jerk off, then i guess they think she doesn't need to be on TV. Apparently Rachel Ray is a little too tubby, but "I still think she could take off her shirt while she's cooking" according to my uncle J. "Her tits aren't big enough but I'd sure love to bend her over!" And even if it were healthy to be saying this all the time, don't you think they'd give it a rest while a woman is in the room (being me or my middle-aged aunt)? They take it to this obsessive level, like it becomes their main focus while watching the tube. I think it's really disturbing, actually, the level that they take it to. i have left the room many times in disgust. They never say anything about the men by the way, just the women. And if i'm offended, I'm too uptight or have no sense of humor (of course.)

And i'm still trying to figure out when "American Pie: Beta House" became like, a family movie? I'm not an anti-sex puritan or anything, but basically here is the plot: guy goes to college, joins fraternity, tries to get laid, yadayadayada, and one of the first scenes is a girl coming out of the shower, completely shaved (because body hair on women is too scary.) Lots of fucking scenes, mostly of women on top with their tits bouncing up and down. At the end some fraternity contest where the college girls get naked and give a lap dance to all the fraternity boys, lined up in a row, who ever cums last is the winner (the guy i mean.) So my parents and younger brother rented this for the whole family to watch, and they thought i had no sense of humor because i opted to read a book in the next room. Sorry, you know, but it seemed to me it was soft-core porn disguised as a comedy, and if i wanted to rent a movie full of men with their big fat dicks swinging for the whole family to watch, i'm pretty sure it would get turned down. just saying. I know, i know, these teen movies have been around for years, Porky's, etc, it seems like "guy teen movie" is supposed to be "teen movie" for everyone. (That article in the new BUST comes to mind.) I mean, i don't think anyone should be objectified or judged, but I would love just once for all of my family to have to watch a movie full of hot guys not wearing any clothes, while the women appraised their hotness, girth and length, among other things, while the guys become totally insecure and uncomfortable.

i just totally need to vent regarding that subject. Being a thinking feminist sure can feel isolating. sad.gif
i_am_jan
that sucks Olivvarria. It sounds like the guys in your family are real functioning, emotionally healthy human beings. pfft.

I do hear that stuff once in a while. It appears in some circles it's cool to sound blatantly like a dick, now that we're post-90s third wave or whatever. ? I hear guys say stuff like that from time to time, it's like they think it sounds rad to say something just that ignorant.

Maybe in a day when porn is mainstream, that kind of shit-talk is as well. ? don't know. I just hope it doesn't get to you too much...I can't imagine dealing with that in my home. It's good you came here to vent, keep talking if you need to get more off your chest.
culturehandy
Olivarria, in circumstances like that, where men judge and say sexually suggestive comments, I dish it right back to men. That usually shuts them up.

American Pie a family movie??? Oh dear.

Off topic, that movie series needs to die already. It was funny when it first came out, now it's just dumb. It's like the Hallowe'en movies, just go the fuck away already.
olivarria
Thanks Culturehandy, I tried that and it didn't work unfortunately. I'm patient to a certain point, but i think i just need some time away from my family and needed to vent. I'm reading Ariel Gore's "Female Chauvinist Pigs" and I have to agree that our culture is becoming very "porn-ified." You would think that the more sex there is in our media, the less sexy it would be because of its desensitizing effect, but maybe not? I think the mainstream idea of sex is really boring and narrow anyway - deeply unoriginal. I think sex is more exciting when it's mysterious and partly hidden, and creative. But anyway, yeah......I think i need to spend more time with women right now than guys, that's just how i feel lately. The BUST boards really are the only place i can vent honestly about these things....thanks for listening.
crazyoldcatlady
QUOTE
but it seemed to me it was soft-core porn disguised as a comedy, and if i wanted to rent a movie full of men with their big fat dicks swinging for the whole family to watch, i'm pretty sure it would get turned down.


LOL! i love you ladies, you always nail it.
i_am_jan
QUOTE(olivarria @ Feb 11 2008, 07:35 AM) *
I think the mainstream idea of sex is really boring and narrow anyway - deeply unoriginal. I think sex is more exciting when it's mysterious and partly hidden, and creative.


I see what you mean. I have as dirty a mind as anyone but I don't feel the need to get upon a stage and holler to the world what my sexual fantasies are, the way 'guys' sometimes do LOL. I do find myself overly horny these days with all the images everyplace...I do wish it was a bit more mysterious & creative though, not so generic and male-centric.

I find it endearing when someone hasn't taken in all of those silly hollywood BS movies, too much tv, etc. I find it endearing that you are not so densensitized as some, and you still have feeling enough to be turned off by certain BS you hear and see...you're not afraid to feel put off or surprised by some of it. shoot, in this world, I find it a worthwhile goal to hold on to my emotions and stay away from that shite as much as I can. you can vent here anytime, it's not a stretch to think you need to get that business out of your head at all and this is the place to do it.
anarch
QUOTE
I would love just once for all of my family to have to watch a movie full of hot guys not wearing any clothes, while the women appraised their hotness, girth and length, among other things, while the guys become totally insecure and uncomfortable.


I've had a fantasy for years that some great female director would make a movie where all the girls and women were ordinary looking ("fat", small tits, big nose, short legs, older, multiracial, glasses, everything), and all the guys were beautiful. Hot bodies and faces and personalities, not just the stars but the extras too, and many gratuitous barely-clothed shots. (And the ordinary-looking female star would end up in a happy healthy relationship with one of the hot-looking cool guys.) Then more guys would see what it's like to be compared to one impossible ideal. Remember Patrick Swayze in Dirty Dancing? All the guys I know except one (and he's married, really smart, and a total sweetheart) hate that movie, and I think it's because the sexuality of Patrick Swayze's character was up front and centre, in a way that appealed to a lot of women viewers. A movie full of hot guys and ordinary gals, with an average-decent story and writing, should do fine financially because hetero women would go in droves to salivate together. I am not saying that two wrongs make a right. Cod knows there's enough damage that guys with body image issues are inflicing on themselves with steroids, etc. I am saying that sometimes, nothing teaches like experience, and maybe certain guys would hear us better during these discussions if they'd experienced that kind of relentless "Your body doesn't measure up so you're worthless" shit. Instead of saying "You feminists are humourless bitches!"

I think a lot of guys do that extreme hetero verbal strutting because they think it proves how manly they are. (Reminds me of some stupid female celebrity photo website I came across that said something like "Can you name all these hot female actors' nude scenes or ARE YOU GAY?") Whereas women haven't got anything to prove by enthusiastically dissecting the physical shortcomings of random men. We'll do it in private, sure, but not in the presence of guys usually. Especially not, when there's a guy present, as a mean-spirited group sport. Gross. also, thank you olivarria for that summary of that American Pie movie. I've never seen any of them and I'm certainly not going to waste my time on them after reading that.
olivarria
Now I have never seen a whole "American Pie" movie so i don't know if all of them are like that, i just saw and heard most of "Beta House." Sometimes i wonder what it would be like if in say, "Knocked Up," Katherine Heigl and the leading actor's sizes were reversed, like she would be completely average and he would really hot, the same in other movies, what peoples' reactions would be. The media is so such more influential on our expectations than most people think. Most men i know don't realize the average woman's size is 12, and the most critical and shallow guys i know are fat, ugly, and/or obese. Strange, huh? I think the media and our culture coddles men's sexual wants and needs so much. Even so-called "womens'" magazines like Cosmo a lot of the time talk about what men want in bed, how to please your man, etc.

Thank you i_am_jan for your comment. I love it when someone says one of my qualities is "endearing!" that is a wonderful compliment! I realize that culture is really supposed to influence me and vice-versa, that is a part of cultural exchange. But i like it when it inspires me to be more creative or to think critically, instead of passively zoning out in front of the tube (not to say that we don't need that sometimes as well). I try to keep certain parts of me unpolluted by other people and ideas. Sometimes i wonder what would be my idea of beauty or sex if i had never seen a movie or magazine? Then i become envious of the tribeswomen in foreign places, whose practices are so different than ours, and who don't have the media telling them what to be attracted to. I'm taking a Human Sexuality course and learned that on the island of Ponape, the man puts a fish in the women's vulva and gradually licks it out. And the Apinaye women in the Brazilian highlands bites of bits of their partner's eyebrows during sex! Strange, huh? I'm off the subject a bit, but the gist of what i'm saying is that it's very limiting to be exposed to the same tired ideas over and over when there is a whole world of culture out there and a broad range of body-types, practices, etc. to explore. I'll get off my soapbox for now, lol.
nickclick
did anyone see Juno? Juno is this irreverant sarcastic teenage girl in high school, and there's a funny bit where she says that the 'cool' guys always say they want the cheerleader, but secretly they're lusting over the weird/goth/punk/future librarian girl. and when Juno's kissing her dork boyfriend, you see the cool guy sulking.
i_am_jan
oh wow, I can't wait to see that movie, I love the implication that the cheerleader may not be all that, and that the 'cool' guys have secrets that they can't let out for sake of not appearing 'cool'!

I did hear Diablo Cody (sp?) (the writer of Juno) on NPR and she sounds cool...really promising...with a grasp on reality you don't see often in the movies? I can't wait to see what she might do next if she gets rich & powerful in the bizz!
hellotampon
"Sometimes i wonder what it would be like if in say, "Knocked Up," Katherine Heigl and the leading actor's sizes were reversed, like she would be completely average and he would really hot, the same in other movies, what peoples' reactions would be."

There would probably be no discussion of why she didn't get an abortion. Instead it would be assumed that it was her only chance to have a baby because she was lucky enough to get a drunk guy to have sex with her that one time, and she'd have to raise it as a single mom because no guy would love her.

"she says that the 'cool' guys always say they want the cheerleader, but secretly they're lusting over the weird/goth/punk/future librarian girl. and when Juno's kissing her dork boyfriend, you see the cool guy sulking."

That was totally the case with me, and it always confused me. I was surprised to hear that in the movie.
nickclick
QUOTE(hellotampon @ Feb 12 2008, 11:48 AM) *
That was totally the case with me, and it always confused me.

Me too! Yet, as a high school dork, I had little interest in the football captain or any of the other cool guys. I only wanted dorky boys. So why is every stupid American Pie-type movie about the dorky boy wanting the cool girl?
i_am_jan
good point nickclick. I think it's to keep us satisfied with less and keep men working toward more like good consumers.
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(olivarria @ Feb 11 2008, 01:21 PM) *
I try to keep certain parts of me unpolluted by other people and ideas. Sometimes i wonder what would be my idea of beauty or sex if i had never seen a movie or magazine? Then i become envious of the tribeswomen in foreign places, whose practices are so different than ours, and who don't have the media telling them what to be attracted to. I'm taking a Human Sexuality course and learned that on the island of Ponape, the man puts a fish in the women's vulva and gradually licks it out. And the Apinaye women in the Brazilian highlands bites of bits of their partner's eyebrows during sex! Strange, huh? I'm off the subject a bit, but the gist of what i'm saying is that it's very limiting to be exposed to the same tired ideas over and over when there is a whole world of culture out there and a broad range of body-types, practices, etc. to explore. I'll get off my soapbox for now, lol.

I hear you, and I love it! Yes! It's like mind control. We are all mind controlled by the media into believing this or that. If you believe it then you have to live it, you know. I say, miss me. I have my own ideas of what is hott, and beautiful.

I have a friend, and she is prolly like a size 22 or something, I am not sure, but she is about 200lbs or so. She loves going to Caribbean Islands b/c the men there just love her thickness! And in some indigenous cultures older women were lovers of young men to teach them how to be good lovers.
nickclick
QUOTE(i_am_jan @ Feb 12 2008, 06:03 PM) *
good point nickclick. I think it's to keep us satisfied with less and keep men working toward more like good consumers.

good point jan! so much is sold to less-than-perfect guys to help them get a hot girl. think of every beer commercial. and so much is sold to women to make us hot to help us attract a man. but why in the hell would i want to attract the dolts in beer commercials?
i_am_jan
Okay???
!!
laugh.gif
ellievee
i really hate to hear girls and women call other women 'sluts'. of course i hate to hear men do this, too, but when it's coming from a woman, directed at another woman, i just feel like this is the reason there has never been a universal 'feminist movement'.

if a woman feels sexually liberated (as all women should!) there's no shame at all in having many sexual partners, or participating in sexual 'taboos', etc. it doesn't make her a slut, it means she knows what she likes! she's confident in herself and her body to be powerful enough to explore and engage in sexual pleasures without being worried about having a 'bad reputation'.

i used to be worried about how many partners i've had, how many experiences i've had, having a bad reputation, etc...until i realised that i really didn't regret any of them! i feel powerful! i'm a sex kitten, and i'm okay with that!
...so why aren't other women?
culturehandy
Ahhh the double standard. Men can have multiple partners, women characters on television can have multiple partners (i.e. Samanta Jones) but in real life there is still this emphasis on this puritan woman, yet she has to be a wild one in bed.

I'm also not shy about the nmber of partners I have, as are many women here, and I've come to the point that I'll do what I want, I don't care what others think. I noticed that people make judgement calls out of jealousy.

The double standard... I won't start to rant.
crazyoldcatlady
what, CH? you mean you don't want to pick sides in the age-old MADONNA versus WHORE battle??


gag.


but i have to say, slut, like bitch, has been reclaimed in my book. all my friends are some kick ass slutbags.
culturehandy
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?

My virgin ears!

Oh if I get started I'll start to rant. It's much more fun to be the whore. I call me self a slut, whore bitch blah blah blah.
i_am_jan
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Feb 16 2008, 12:56 AM) *
I noticed that people make judgement calls out of jealousy.


Ha, yah baby! That's w'sup. because if you've got some action going on of your own, do you really have time to sit and think about that other gal's sex life over there? Nope. On the other hand, if you are in need of a RELEASE of some sort that you are not getting? that's usually when the judgey wudgey comes round with the little gavel. ohmy.gif
culturehandy

People are jealous they aren't getting fucked! I recall a time when I was banging this guy, and some people *thought* it may be true, suddenly I was getting trash talked. Oh, i should also mention that this was someone that many lusted after.

I'm not saying this is the case all the time, in some circumstances why not. People talk shit about those they are threatened by.
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