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girlygirlgag
What happened to this thread?
pepper
yes, what did happen to this thread?
erinjane
Weird.

(I personally would like to see a discussion start up again, but at the moment I'm running out the door. I'll try to think of something smart later. :P)
hummingbird
It is really shitty when someone that you don't give a fuck about anyway, goes out of his way to tell you, without actually telling you, that your not pretty. I know that I am beautiful. Sometimes by t.v. standards and sometimes I am not considered beautiful by those standards because of my flaws. But their mine, and I will love them because they make me who I am and they give me character. And sometimes they set me free. Beauty must be defined as what we are (period) or the term itself is our enemy.
Why is it that some women and men can redefine what beauty is for themselves? While others fall victim to the constant bombardment of advertisement and hollywood bullshit? They actually believe it (f*cking cattle).
Why is it that some liberate themselves from this aesthetic oppression and others are obsessed and consumed.
venetia
yeah. The Body Shop ran this messed up campaign once, "There are are 3 billion women in the world who don't look like supermodels and only 8 who do" which to me epitomises that whole problem. I mean, way to miss the point.
mirabella
That is so fucked up. I am so scared of my daughter growing up. Which is inevitable I know. Beauty standards are out of control.
datagirl
Ive grown my pit and leg hair(for the winter)Im debating on whether or not to keep it for the Summer.I cant believe I have even debated it.It just reminds me of how fucked up our society it when hair is seen as a reflection of who you are.In my case I'm rebeling, but under my winter clothes,sad.
bklynhermit
i do shave more in summer than in winter.

i wish i didn't have to, and i guess i really don't, but there it is. i really only shave before going to the beach, before any kind of job interview or similar best-foot-forward kind of occasion, and when/if i'll be seeing my mother. all in all it averages out to few weeks or a month. the only one of the three i willingly shave for is the beach -- i'm at home with my gynergy and all, but i draw the line at visible pubic hair. and then feel like if i'm going there, i might as well get everything.

but i am damn well not going to lose out on a professional oppurtunity because of my body hair. and i've been fighting this battle with my mother for almost 15 years now. i'm over it. if shaving twice a year will give her one less thing to nag me about, i'm all for it.

i don't feel that it's 'rebelling' not to shave in winter. just like, who's going to know anyway? at this point, my position on body hair is far more about comfort, convenience, and practicality than about politics.
venetia
I really don't feel any conflict about the underarm hair. I bleach my underarm hair to a "natural blonde" colour and keep it really tidy and well manicured. You really have to be pretty close to me to notice it. It's gorgeous without being at all in-your-face.

I wear sleeves to work - my armpits are erogenous zones so it's not appropriate for me in my mind to flash them around the workplace anyway.
datagirl
Why should I have to shave at all.And if I don't why am I then ostracised and deemed less attractive (dirty even) for not shaving?Yet it is acceptable,expected for men not to shave their leg/pits and pubic area.Its just another sucky thing that I would never have noticed if it werent for 1.Winter(I'm in Australia)and 2.That I'm lazy and single.
bklynhermit
the only thing that bugs me about my underarm hair is that it gets LONG and at a certain point will actually snake out from underneath my short sleeved shirts. which is extremely gross. this is the only reason i continue to shave -- when i can see hair even when wearing a t-shirt, that's when it's time. it takes a couple of months to get to that point, though.

i actually think my unmolested pit hair is kind of hot and HATE the feeling of sweaty bald arm pits.

i had a guy compliment my hairiness, once. he said it was like being with a woman from an old painting. like someone coming out of history to be with him. i believe he actually compared me to the subjects of the pre-raphaelites, which was probably the hottest compliment ever.
pepper
yah ven! errogenous zone indeed. i only trim mine too but no bleach, i imagine as even a mild facial bleach would sting in there and i do so love the looks on people's faces when they catch an inadvertant glimspe of the dark hair under my arms. they are so visially like two extra pussies that it's an absolute shock to see them exposed au naturelle. i think it has a deep, subconscious affect on people and the ones who are in touch with their essential sexual nature (men and women equally) see it and enjoy it. needing that area to be shaved and neutralized is on a level with the ridiculous obsession to "tidy up" or "clean up" a woman's pussy by shaving it. there's something so wrong with infantilizing an adult's body to make it more sexually appealing or even socially acceptable. justmho.

bk, when we were kids we Begged mom to shave her hairy gorilla legs and arm pits but she just laughed at us and was like "Shave for you little hooligans? Nah, I don't think so. What do you know anyhow?" it was SO embarrasing but looking back i'm glad she did it. she was very accepting of her body, my mum, she wouldn't be pushed around by ANYbody.
now, if i want to wear something that shows my legs at the bank, i do shave them, but they stay furry all winter and in any weather where i can still wear long pants. i don't care if anyone sees it either, those are MY legs after all. and i am partial to a tidy kitty so i trim there as well, but that's for *practical* reasons, heh heh. and if i want to wear something that exposes my armpits because it's unbearably hot out i bring a light wrap to cover my upper arms while i'm working and take it off on my way out the door.

i have to say, i can count on the one hand how many times someone has said something disparaging to me about my body hair, leg or underarm, and it hasn't happened in a really long time. i can just see the look on my own face if anyone dared. perhaps it's where i live, maybe it's my own attitude about it, but it's probably the people that i gravitate towards being more accepting of all things natural and personal expression. i don't know, but i'm glad of it.
anarch
Two extra pussies! LOL! Thanks pepper.

I trim my underarm hair. Occasionally I'll tweeze for a special occasion (like, my wedding). I tweeze the dark hairs on my legs but I leave the lighter ones alone. If somebody wants to find my underarm or leg hair appalling, well, /shrug (erm...why would I care about your opinion?)

the ones who are in touch with their essential sexual nature (men and women equally) see it and enjoy it

I've got this one dark hair that grows on the edge of my right aureole. After I got married I made sure to tweeze it when my husband wasn't around, but after a while I got careless and he caught me one day. I was all embarrassed but he said, "That's so sexy. It's primeval. You don't have to tweeze it for me." I love him. (I still tweeze it though because I have a mild hair-pulling thing that loves tweezing thick hairs.)
pepper
oh anarch, i love your hubby! my ex was all about the leg hair too. he was the first man i have ever been with who thought the fuzzier my legs were, the sexier they were. so totally backwards. he'd grab my leg during sex and rub his face all over the hairs and bite and suck, ooh. i thought it was great. he didn't like me to wash with soap either, he liked the smell of me. sexy.
girlygirlgag
I don't know, I think it is kind of proper to emphasize that SuperModels, are kind of genetically freaky (no offense to SuperModels) and to have to live up to that ideal, is pretty impossible.

I know I used to try, but I grew tired of being hungry all of the time and hating myself.
venetia
I get what you mean, but why do we have to see them as an ideal? I'd rather I look like, well, like me. And it would be just as impossible for Super Models to live up to looking like me.

I agree with you Pepper, about people finding it subconsciously attractive. I've caught the most unlikely men sneaking lustful looks at my underarms! Especially in formal/eveningwear situations for some reason.
pepper
i KNOW!! i had a bf's friend once yank my arm up over my head and loudly exclaim over my unshaven state, he was in extatics over it. now, mind, he'd had a few but still, he was overwhelmed by the sheer sexiness of it, i think he might have even been in the process of leaning in for a closer inspection when he caught sight of bf's (who did NOT appreciate the underarmage) uber scowly face pointed in his direction. i nearly died of hysterics.
kissmypineapple
Sorry to take the discussion off course, but I was watching tv the other day, flipping through, and caught a few different entertainment shows, all of which kept exclaiming about how womanly figured J.Lo, Carmen Electra, etc. are...and I understand that it is important to embrace figures other than super skinny women, but as a small breasted, small butted woman, I'm saddened by the insinuation that I am less womanly because I can't fill a C-cup. Is anyone else bothered by the catch-22 of if you're not skinny, society deems you un-pretty, and if you're not buxom, society says you're aren't sexy?
anna_k
Also, I notice that a lot of famous women who are called "curvy" are still pretty petite, they just have a round butt or a prominent bust. I also didn't like the movie title "Real Women Have Curves" and the implying that if a woman is skinny that she starves herself or doesn't eat (this belongs in the Body threads).

My mom has been thin all her life, and was thin due to genetics and being athletic. She still prefers voluptuous women as sexy, saying that she thought Cher in the 70s was way too skinny. I was average-sized but developed a prominent bust in my teens, and despite seeing lots of famous women getting breast implants, it always seemed to be very petite women getting huge implants.

Sometimes I get jealous of women who had striking looks that allowed them to become teenage models or actresses, and have lots of leeway and independence in the world. As a teen, I was jealous of Natalie Portman because she was the type of teenager I wanted to be. High grades, beautiful, worldly adventures, adult roles at a young age, and a world of wonder. As a bespectacled nerd with big breasts at 14, I really wanted to be a delicate, pretty flower of a girl.
girlygirlgag
It is annoying. I just want to say real women, have ovaries and quit putting a "judgement" on the outward appearances of our bodies.
knorl05
girlygirlgag: "I know I used to try, but I grew tired of being hungry all of the time and hating myself." right on.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(knorl05 @ Jul 27 2006, 03:07 AM) *

girlygirlgag: "I know I used to try, but I grew tired of being hungry all of the time and hating myself." right on.



shucks smile.gif

What about jealousy? Have you ever been in a situaiotn where a "new" woman joins your social circle, and she happens to be gorgeous, do you ever get the initial twinges of jealousy?
pepper
sometimes i do. i mean, i'm pretty happy with the way i look unless i'm standing right next to someone who's really gorgeous and it's impossible for all eyes not to be rivetted right on her. then it's more of a "could we all get back to acting normal and having a conversation?!" thing though. it's a distraction and it can make people act like goofy idjits. but more than jealous i feel sorry for them. i have a friend who is just like that, really a gorgeous woman, and effortlessly too. but she's had a terrible time making friends with men or women or having people take her seriously or treat her like she's anything but an eyepiece. it hurts her so much. she's so smart and funny and genuine and a great, amazing, awesome friend. we've been friends since highschool and i've seen what being gorgeous can do to a woman's self esteem. at least when i talk people don't act surprised that i can eh? i'll take that over being a knock-out any time.
curioushair
Historically, most of my women friends aren't the type to "pretty" themselves: shave, wear makeup, so feeling jealous of the "pretty girl" in the group is kind of moot. Besides, that's such a double standard. Why should I judge someone (or feel uncomfortable around her) because she conforms to what the media says is attractive anymore that I would want to be judged for my hairy armpits. (By gorgeous, I'm assuming you mean the typical hollywood pretty. To me, there are all kinds of pretty.)

The weight thing: I used to be pretty skinny. (Genetically, not anorectically.) My being thin gave everyone the right to judge what was on my plate, but by gum, I didnt dare say anything about what my heavier sisters ate. When magazines call Jenifer Lopez "plus size" and proclaim "real women have curves" (My flat ass and I feel very real, thank you) they pit thin women against curvy women. Nothing has changed. Remember the outrage when Kate Moss was all over magazines during the "waif" years? Well, I looked more like Kate Moss than Cindy Crawford, as we (media) lamented the demise of the "supermodel." I still see more Kate Mosses than Cindy Crawfords.

Anyway the media alone isn't responsible for eating disorders. There are too many variables; the media's just a good, easy scapegoat.


Um..trying to steer this back on track. As far as the effortlessly gorgeous being taken for granted, and looked at as a piece of ass and a set of boobs, well, that's just men. I hate that as much as I hated my high school counselor telling me sexual harrassment is just boys being boys. I'm far from effortlessly gorgeous, wear jeans and boys' tee shits unless I have to "dress," and I still take a fair share of "Hooo, momma!"
aliboo
Just some thoughts while reading this thread...

The whole shaving thing.... to me if you want to shave or don't want to shave..whatever...more power to you. But there's those two extremes with anything that I don't like...there's that extreme (with shaving for example) of "ewww you are gross if you don't shave" or whatever...and then there is that extreme of "I don't have to shave. Body hair does not define who I am and anybody who does shave is just a conformist." Basically both sides finding reasons to put the other down.

For me, I feel better about myself when I am smooth...so I try to keep up with shaving. Oh believe me, I've went w/o shaving for a while...especially in the winter lol...but having tons of hair on my legs...in my pits whatever is just not for me...I've decided this on my own, thus I shave and I feel like that is a decision that I didn't have to come to through society's standards.

Next...I hate how certain celebrities are proclaimed "curvey" when they are nowhere near what most normal human beings would define as curvey. Basically if a female celeb doesn't weight 90 lbs she is defined as curvey. WTF? I hate how it's always one way or another..nothing in between. You gotta be thin as a stick or have an ass that looks like you shooved 2 basketballs down your drawers. There's really no happy medium in the media...you either are or you aren't.

Sure I'll admit that I have felt twinges of jealousy when someone I deem as extremely attractive enters the social circle. That started to change though I discovered myself more and got older and realized there were things more valuable about a person than how attractive they were on the outside.

One thing I have learned, that I don't think I have ever had proven wrong to me, is if you love and embrace yourself..and you're completely comfy with yourself in a healthy way, people are generally drawn to you in some form or another and not just because you're HOT or whatever.

It's funny b/c even though this is one of my own personal truths, there are still many moments in my life, where I struggle to be completely comfortable with myself.

Sourta random perhaps lol but that just came out.
anna k
QUOTE
Next...I hate how certain celebrities are proclaimed "curvey" when they are nowhere near what most normal human beings would define as curvey. Basically if a female celeb doesn't weight 90 lbs she is defined as curvey. WTF? I hate how it's always one way or another..nothing in between. You gotta be thin as a stick or have an ass that looks like you shooved 2 basketballs down your drawers. There's really no happy medium in the media...you either are or you aren't.


True. Curvy is usually for petite actresses with C-cups and a round booty, but still very petite and slim. I'm curvy/slim, which means I have slim arms and legs, and a round butt and D cups. Not very usual for whether it's curvy or slim.

I don't like underarm hair, it looks dirty and unkempt. I shave my legs because I have dark hair and when I wear dresses, I don't like seeing long hairs. Pubic is fine, I like the softness and comfort than being naked down there. I shave to keep neat and clean on the body parts that are visible to the public.
venetia
Weird... I just realised that I don't feel jealous of pretty people, any more than I'd feel jealous of a sunset or a kitten, because I sort of assume that they're there for me to look at. Which isn't very good of me either, really. I suppose it's okay if they WANT the attention but not everyone does.

Of course, if a tv actress type is hitting on my partner in front of me I get irate. But that's probably more about ettiquette.
tesao
another thread i'm bumping because i think it is relevant to a lot of the conversation lately regarding women and beauty and other things related to beauty, such as leg shaving.....can "the pretty girl" who fits all of those "unwritten societal issue of beauty": thin, big breasted, tiny waisted women who wear makeup and shave their legs.....can they be feminists? why? why not?
deannareturns
some 'pretty girls' i know are feminists partly because they pretty girls. they want to be taken seriously and enjoy the fruits of being pretty. fair enough. it is fascinating to see what their feminist preoccupations become, some renounce the 'unwritten societal issue of beauty', others develop a critique of their performative gender and the list goes on...
yemaya
It’s been awhile since I posted and just lurked, but it’s funny that this beauty thread got bumped, because I admit that Beauty has been a decided preoccupation of mine of late. Well becuase I wish I were. lol.

How can it not be hard to be envious of the impossibly beautiful woman/girl? A-Rai, Monica Belluci, Catherine Zeta-Jones, Jada Pinket, Tyra, Halle, the unknown beauty sitting in the Café in B&N, etc are to be envied precisely because Beauty opens doors. People are generally nicer to you, you get paid more job wise, you have greater access and more choices in dating/marriage partners, people want to be your friends and you are admired, treasured and adored compared to the plain Janes. Studies have shown that more attractive babies are picked up more by their own mothers and pretty/attractive kids get more attention then their plainer siblings. Thus as a non-beauty who is categorically made invisible by society, it can be hard to be OK with being Plain and Invisible especially when you see others rewarded disproportionately for just being Beautiful. And of course when it comes to dating marrying men often emphasis looks too…

Of course, if you are plain, you are often forced to cultivate other aspects of yourself in order to gain favorable attention as Betsy Prioleau in her book Seductress emphatically states, but I submit that the plain Janes who are man-slayers and fascinators (many of her examples would be extraordinary in any lifetime) are often amazingly gifted and charismatic anyway, which makes being merely pretty superfluous. Oprah is a good example of this. She is certainly not traditionally or even exotically Beautiful, but she is rendered extraordinarily attractive because she was/is gifted with the X-factor, i.e. Charisma which makes her stand out above the rest. Whoopi Goldberg is another example. If Whoopi’s acting skills were on par with Jessica Alba, would she have even survived as long as she has? Charisma is something that is similar to true physical beauty in that you either have it or you don’t and this phenomenon only occurs among very few people. Another example, Madame Curie, who was hardly a raving beauty, but her physical essence was rendered obsolete because her mental brilliance far exceeded the norm.

Consequently, I think you have to be extraordinary in some way or in many ways in order to offset physical plainness/ugliness. Beautiful people can have very average intelligence and personality but still gain access to social networks, etc without much effort that a plain/ugly person has to work 200% harder to be rendered visible. Pity the Plain/ugly person who is just average/below average in other areas, and with the media emphasizing at every opportunity how remarkably inferior you are physically (Extreme Make over, the plastic surgery industry booming) how can one’s self esteem not be effected by never-ending looksism. ON a side note there was an article in USA today a couple weeks back on the Y Generation and how the majority prize being famous and beauty over Substance. What does that say?

This is why I don’t feel much sympathy for the woes of the Beautiful. Of course I have to be Beautiful to understand the prison, but from my view on the looks scale, the advantages far outweighs being seen as an object. And if you have the X factor, Beauty, Intelligence and everything else in between…then there is no limit. Obviously.
nickclick
Gloria Steinem got more cred at her first exposure because she was attractive and thin and wore long hair; in other words, she wasn't busy man-hating just because she couldn't get a date!
tesao
too right, nickclick. remember that she became a playboy bunny so that she could write an expose? what does that tell us right there? or for that matter, what does it tell us that so many young women decided to become bunnies because it made SO much more money than any other job that they could have made at the time.

it was a really strange time. i remember being very young and hearing arguments between my parents about sending my 10 year older than me sister to college. my father thought that it would be a waste of his money. this was in....mmm, early sixties, maybe 1963, 1964?

greenbean
I get really confused with this issue. Maybe its a generational thing. I do hear those the studies about how "beautiful people" get more positive attention,..but usually those studies say it goes for boys/men as well as women, so I really don't see it as a feminist issue.

I've experienced both sides of the "pretty" issue, in some groups I'm considered pretty but I certainly am not mainstream/hollywood pretty. I don't feel like less of a feminist when I am told I'm pretty, but it does make me uncomfortable sometimes. I am often of the "sisters before misters" mentality, like if a guy is hitting on me and won't acknowledge my less-attractive friend I'm with, then I won't flirt back with him. It just doesnt feel right to me.
nickclick
yes, attractive men are probably treated differently also, but it's more often a woman's worth is soley based on her attractiveness. wouldn't you agree?
LoveMyPugs
Usually, I'm the unattractive friend and I can tell you that there is nothing more embarrassing, demeaning and irritating then a guy coming up and hitting on my friend all the while ignoring the fact that I even exist let alone am standing less then two feet away from him. I can honestly say that I don’t go out to bars with this one very attractive friend of mine cause guys hit on her incessantly. She’s usually great about it. She’ll say something like, “Sorry but I’m here with my friend on a girl’s night.” This makes me feel like shit because if the guy is genuinely good looking and/or nice I feel like she’s missing out because of me. I’ll usually whisper to her that I can drive myself home if she wants to pursue it but she always says, “Are you kidding, no way!!”

I want to throw a party soon and my friends and I were talking about possible themes. One friend said she wanted to have a pajama party. I said right away, “No way, I’d be the only one wearing comfy cotton while all the other girls are wearing silk, satin or lacy lingerie.”

My one guy friend was like, “Why couldn’t you wear lingerie?”

I told him, “Trust me. No one (but Mr. Pugs) wants to see me in lingerie.” Later on my guy friend came up to me and gave me a raft of shit for putting down my looks all the time. I told him, “Even though I’m big I’m happy with the way I look”.

He asked, “Then what is the problem?”

I told him, “It’s not my problem. It’s everyone else’s problem.”

Being big is so looked down upon in today’s society. This makes no sense when so many people in today’s society are overweight. Mr. Pug wouldn’t be able to keep his eyes off of me but everyone else would have a hard time keeping their dinner down. The men at the party would be totally disgusted with having to see my stretch marks, sagging breasts and rolls and any of them that say differently are straight up liars.
greenbean
Oh, I do agree Nickclick, I just don't see the issue of "can a pretty girl be feminist?". I think the problem lies in how much girls/women are judged, not how women choose to look.

For instance, I am infuriated at the comments people make on YouTube. If you watch a male band's video, the comments following both negative or positive are always about the music or artistic nature of the video. I have yet to see a comment about how a male performer looks, unless its positive. Contrast that with a female artist/performer, and chances are the majority of comments will be about her looks, or that she sucks.

I totally hate that. Sexism in the arts/pop culture is still rampant, perhaps more than in executive offices or acadamia. My point is, sexism shouldn't scare women into not being themselves, whether thats "pretty" or "sexy" or not, nor should they feel that they are not feminist just because they are deemed worthy of positive attention. (which, by the way, no one is all of the time even if it looks that way).

((Pugs)) If I were invited to that party there is no way I'd where lingerie, thats just stupid. And trust me, your friend isnt missing out on a guy thats obviously a jerk. I know I never felt like I was missing out in those sitches.
girltrouble
i come at this from an odd angle. in many ways being trans, means, no matter how attractive, i am almost always the "the unattractive friend", as pug put it, because i was born a boy. but with tg girls, i am the 'lucky one', because i am pretty for a tg. sometimes i am both in the space of 2 minutes. but the same circomstances apply for tgirls--if a woman's worth is in her attractiveness, it's even more so for tgirls. the passable ones are given preference. from the start, my idea was to assume i wasn't passable, and never would be. i assume everyone i meet knows i am tg. but if people think i am attractive before they know, that changes quickly when they find out.

i think a lot of the same things apply if you are a brown kid, there have been studies about how we have less of a chance at loans from banks, and simply having pictures of black people in a house for sale can devalue it by thousands.
deannareturns
I definitely think the issue of 'beautiful people' is more pertinent to women than men - it's far more a part of everyday judgment/ experience for women. Sure 'beautiful men' and 'beautiful women' both have advantages from being so darn good looking, but overall, ALL women are judged by their looks. That's a huge difference.

I do it myself and I hate it. I saw Chrissie Hynde perform last week and she was amazing and the first thing to gush out of my mouth: 'she looked fucking incredible!' Well, she did and why not celebrate it. But you know...

The good looking thing is one I really try to let go of and not internalise, but it always creeps back. For instance, my boyfriends have not surprisingly found me attractive and I appreciate it. Their appreciation makes me more confident. Yet whenever I split with someone one of my first instincts is to recalculate my booty appeal. And I usually feel a hell of a lot worse. I can only intellectualise the issue so far. I hate it!
greenbean
Awww! I love Chrissie Hynde! She is stunning, and i don't think its sexist to say so, cuz what makes her really hot is the same for all performers: she rocks! I just wish more people based "hotness" on merits like that.

Again though, I am curious if anyone thinks women like Chrissie Hynde, Gloria Steimen and Kathleen Hanna can't be feminist cuz of how they look. I think the real question should be "can we still be feminist even while tearing women down for their looks?".

and Girltrouble, when you are the "lucky one" in being the prettiest tgirl, do you feel like you are less feminist?
girltrouble
i was thinking about something along the same lines as your question in the second paragraph, but i was thinking of someone who i think is a feminist, and the quintessentual symbol of a man's idea of a woman:dolly parton. can she be a feminist? how about mae west? many of the women who trade on that visual power of the attractive woman/pretty girl are also trailblazers to be both are also heroines to me. they were more than happy to take power when need be. they made choices that were right for them dispite what the men around them said. mae west was a playwriter and was responsible for the career of cary grant. she called the shots on her films. dolly parton is an extremely prolific songwriter who refused to sell the publishing for her songs-- unheard of when she started. i was watching a bio on her and they were talking about how elvis wanted to record the song "i will always love you." he was the biggest star on the planet, and if he recorded a song, a condition of him recording it was that he would own half of the music rights and publishing. dolly refused. she said she did the work, she wanted to keep the rights. that is a very feminist stand....


as for feeling less feminist when i am 'the lucky one" no. i'm me. i know who i am, and my point of view, and actually, it's kind of depressing. i am very tied to memories of when i started to transition, so being ridiculed on busses, ostricized by other t-girls, very obviously a boy... plus, being the 'lucky one' in t-girl land is like having a target on your back. my feminist stand when it comes to that community was being a visable 'rule breaker' and encouraging other tg bois+girls to do the same at the queer drop-in center i helped at. i caught a lot of shit from tgirls and drag queens for being me-- they would talk shit about how i was a skateboarder, and "was confused." but that skateboard was-- and is my symbol of what a woman is to me. i make my own choices, define who and what i am, and if it means having little community, then so be it. my feminism is a personal one. i do what makes me happy. i want to be my own heroine.
greenbean
Ah, I like your answers Girltrouble. I forget about Dolly Parton. I used to think it was absurd, all the work she has done, ..but when she talks about it she has such a "this is what I like and I'm gonna keep doing it no matter what people say" you can't help but respect her. I guess its all about being comfortable in your own skin, even if that skin is constructed to your liking.

And since when does becoming a girl mean you should give up skating? Yeesh.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(greenbean @ Jan 31 2007, 06:25 PM) *



Again though, I am curious if anyone thinks women like Chrissie Hynde, Gloria Steimen and Kathleen Hanna can't be feminist cuz of how they look. I think the real question should be "can we still be feminist even while tearing women down for their looks?".




IMO, any woman who thinks another woman cannot be a Feminist because of the way that they look, is an abomination to Feminism.

We are all in this together. Having that attitude is akin to people ignorant about Feminism, thinking all Feminists are Butch-like man haters.
nickclick
well, there's a difference between someone like Kathleen Hanna, who is naturally pretty, and someone like Dolly Parton, who may also be naturally pretty but crafts her image to that of the male gaze. as much as her actions may be feminist, her 'look' is decidely unfeminist.
maddy29
word nickclick.
aviatrix
what is interesting here (see the first part of my sig) is the purpose of that dolly's image isn't about the male gaze, although that may be a side result. anyone who has heard dolly talk about how she came about her look knows it's more a matter of self-determination and self-conception*, to me that makes it feminist, because her actions were about pleasing herself rather than a man. and isn't that the bedrock of feminism?

*dolly has said countless times that when she was a girl she was in town with her mom and she saw a woman who her mom described as "trash" and thinking she was the prettiest woman in the world, replied to her mom's comment by saying "that's what i want to be when i grow up!"
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(nickclick @ Feb 2 2007, 05:27 PM) *

well, there's a difference between someone like Kathleen Hanna, who is naturally pretty, and someone like Dolly Parton, who may also be naturally pretty but crafts her image to that of the male gaze. as much as her actions may be feminist, her 'look' is decidely unfeminist.



Her look is exactly how she wants to look, which is incredibly feminist. How dare anyone put restrictions on what a woman wears? Seriously, why don't we all go back to wearing ankle length skirts? Or put stock into the "she was asking for it" rape defense? Because that kind of mind set is equally as terrible.

That is just the kind of comment that made me start this thread. Because I am a blonde and will wear a mini-skirt with a tight shirt and knee high boots, some women will say that I am not a feminist because of what I, ME, MYSELF, chose to wear.

Give me a break rolleyes.gif

this is reminding me of the wretched Womens Studies Classes I took in college.
nickclick
nope, not saying dolly or anyone else who's blonde and/or mini-skirted isn't a feminist. i'm saying that her look, although the most famous but as just one aspect of her identity, embraces and perpetuates the sexual opression of women.

believe me, i like her. she's intelligent and creative and talented. i don't even blame her for choosing to dress that way. would those positive qualities alone have gotten her the fame she enjoys today? maybe not. but how are we going to help create a place where women aren't judged by that particular set of standards when women use those standards to allow an otherwise ignorant majority see those true talents? i don't think our goal is to just play along and then shove in some feminism when they aren't looking. or is it?

i haven't visited lately, but this discussion could probably mirror that in the porn thread, in where questions arise about women working in a sex industry (not all sex industries per se) that is dictated by oppression of women. just because a woman controls how she fits in to that industry (a feminist act), does that mean she's helping it survive??? those teens in fort lauderdale are signing contracts in compliance to having their boobs bounce on every $9.95 copy of 'girls gone wild.' is that feminist, just because she wasn't forced to participate?

look, i'm not saying women will be treated with respect as soon as we stop dressing 'trashy.' but hell no am i saying 'she's asking for it.'
maddy29
double word, nickclick. nice stuff!

aviatrix
i'm not saying i have any answers, i'm just asking the questions, i can see your point, but i'm not sure, because as i've said numerous times in said thread, trading one kind of slavery for another is still slavery, no matter who is holding the whip.

i think rudderless put it perfectly; it's a woman's personal motivation and intention, and a woman's right to determine who she is. she, i, any woman shouldn't have to justify herself to anyone but herself. are we talking about a feminism of freedom, or a feminism of freedom if it's institutionally approved?
girlygirlgag
I think there is a huge difference between drunkenly baring your breasts as a young and STUPID woman, all the while helping some sleezebag make millions of dollars and getting "dressed".

I think in this day and age, clothing should be the last of our concerns. To even utter, "the way she dresses is not Feminist" is ridiculous and sabotaging to Feminism as a whole. A woman should have the right to put on whatever the hell she wants, without having to worry about whether or not, she is appealing to the opposite sex, or being judged by so called "feminists" for what they deem is appealing to the opposite sex.

These are our bodies, this is what they look like. Is it Feminist to go back to wearing ankle length skirts and collars up to our ears, and feel shameful about our bodies? That was a patriarchal enforcement for a long time.
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