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lilyblue
here's an interesting documentary that I'm watching: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/takeonestep/fat/

one of the biggest things i have heard in this documentary is the reality that fat people are fat for various reason and the whole "eat less and exercise more" line isn't the only answer to the main question about the "obesity epidemic". finally someone said it!
thereshegoes
ugh. today was not good for me. read a vogue magazine, theoretically devoted to body acceptance, and some cheerleader show were girls were cut for being too TALL. you can't live if they let you. i feel sometimes like any time i take in any mass-media imagery of "hott" women, big body-hatred lurks somewhere. . .
LoveMyPugs
I am honestly not trying to put anyone down when I say this but why do you read a magazine completely focused on sizism and thin women and then wonder why you get depressed? I don't understand that. Read a magazine directly focused on plus-size women like Figure Magazine or Just My Size for example. Don't go into stores or the areas in stores where they have tiny women clothing. Go to plus size stores. It's just that simple. You can't get offended or depressed about it if you don't expose yourself to it. If you don't like racisism you stay away from a KKK meeting right? I'm saying expose yourself to things that make you happy. I told my mom a long time ago that I just wasn't going to discuss my weight with her anymore because she is hurtful. I know she doesn't mean to be but she is and she can't keep her opinions to herself. And, don't watch that kinda shit on TV if it makes you angry I mean. You are feeding the fire. I think reading and watching shit like that eventually makes you not like skinny people and two wrongs don't make a right.
thereshegoes
pugs, i agree that i would probably be a happier person if i always stayed away from the mainstream media, but sometimes, i don't know, i want to be able to participate in these things just like everyone else. i think it's relevant, while we are talking about sizism as a "prejudice" to discuss how exclusionary these things can be, and how marketing et al almost seems to build on this "prejudice" to sell media. i know i can't be the only woman above 150 pounds that wants to read a fashion mag every once in a while. even though i appreciate mags like BUST and VENUS that use bigger models and all that, my clothing tastes tend to be more mainstream these days.

i don't know that i hate skinny people unless they directly say things like "you should lose weight" or "people shouldn't eat XYZ" or put down bigger people. I have a few very skinny, conventionally hot friends and they are very nice, even if they have some bitchy-ass friends. i would say my friends tend to range in sizes and i don't tend to gravitate towards any one shape. when i get angry or hateful, it tends to be more at a certain group of guys, you know the "no fat chicks" shirt-wearing, STUFF reading, etc---esp if the guy in the "no fat chicks" shirt ain't so hot himself. that gets me more than a group of size XS women going off about their thighs or whatever.
i_am_jan
Let's not forget please that sizism encompasses many body sizes. I am skinny, but I am short. 5' to be exact. And everyone I meet feels it's totally cool to harangue me about it the very first time we meet without even knowing me. Stuff they would consider it rude to say to overweight people, such as how short my legs are, insulting stuff. And the only time I am represented in the media or a magazine is for a joke to be made fun of.

So a 'hatred' for the skinny really is a bit inappropriate and doesn't even apply in many cases.

Every person is born with a body and it's hardly ever what is 'acceptable' in the eyes of media.

Stats say that models represent approximately 1-5% of the body types of the actual people in the world.

Reverse discrimination sucks as bad as regular discrimination and is just as ignorant.

That's all about that, because I know we've been through that in this thread before many times.

_______

At any rate, it seems to me that the health industry seems to blame 'overweight' people - (the common person) - for health problems when really, the problem in America is - WE WORK TOO MUCH TO STAY HEALTHY - and - POVERTY/NON-EDUCATION - and - WE DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

And as these issues snowball, you see them blaming the common person - and deflecting the blame off of the people/institutions who actually deserve the blame.

Also, it seems like media/magazines, etc., are just trying to get you to buy stuff. They know we don't look that way naturally - so we would have to BUY things from them to try and look that way. Such as diets, certain clothing, makeup, stuffed bras from Victorias Sec., etc.

I try to ignore and focus on feeling good about the things I do have.

It doesn't always work and yes, it's depressing. But the more I focus on it, the easier it gets.

Also I use the old tried and true - girlcotting certain things. Not giving them my dollar vote. Or my attention span vote.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(thereshegoes @ Apr 16 2007, 02:58 PM) *
pugs, i agree that i would probably be a happier person if i always stayed away from the mainstream media, but sometimes, i don't know, i want to be able to participate in these things just like everyone else. i think it's relevant, while we are talking about sizism as a "prejudice" to discuss how exclusionary these things can be, and how marketing et al almost seems to build on this "prejudice" to sell media. i know i can't be the only woman above 150 pounds that wants to read a fashion mag every once in a while. even though i appreciate mags like BUST and VENUS that use bigger models and all that, my clothing tastes tend to be more mainstream these days.

i don't know that i hate skinny people unless they directly say things like "you should lose weight" or "people shouldn't eat XYZ" or put down bigger people. I have a few very skinny, conventionally hot friends and they are very nice, even if they have some bitchy-ass friends. i would say my friends tend to range in sizes and i don't tend to gravitate towards any one shape. when i get angry or hateful, it tends to be more at a certain group of guys, you know the "no fat chicks" shirt-wearing, STUFF reading, etc---esp if the guy in the "no fat chicks" shirt ain't so hot himself. that gets me more than a group of size XS women going off about their thighs or whatever.


thereshegoes - I do agree on the exclusionary issue. I have felt that way too. I guess I was tired of being let down by magazines like Cosmo and the like. I just stopped exposing myself to them. I guess you could call it self preservation. I hear ya girl!


QUOTE(i_am_jan @ Apr 19 2007, 01:06 PM) *
Let's not forget please that sizism encompasses many body sizes. I am skinny, but I am short. 5' to be exact. And everyone I meet feels it's totally cool to harangue me about it the very first time we meet without even knowing me. Stuff they would consider it rude to say to overweight people, such as how short my legs are, insulting stuff. And the only time I am represented in the media or a magazine is for a joke to be made fun of.

So a 'hatred' for the skinny really is a bit inappropriate and doesn't even apply in many cases.

Every person is born with a body and it's hardly ever what is 'acceptable' in the eyes of media.

Stats say that models represent approximately 1-5% of the body types of the actual people in the world.

Reverse discrimination sucks as bad as regular discrimination and is just as ignorant.

That's all about that, because I know we've been through that in this thread before many times.


i_am_jan - I couldn't agree more. I can tell you that me and my "fat" friends make fun of each other all the time. We call ourselves the fat kids. A bunch of us (skinny and heavy) all went snow tubing once and the one time we got to the top of the hill it turned out that all the "fat" friends were in one tube and all the skinny friends were in another and we were going to see who could get to the bottom first. I yelled to my one skinny friend that it's a matter of physics and that they were just shit outta luck. My one skinny friend said to their tube guy that they needed a head start to beat the fat kids. I laughed my ass off for almost ten minutes. She was just being competitive not cruel. When we finally got a push off I swear the "fat" tube almost ramped off the other side but hell we won. It was funny. I try to make light of sizism in my group of friends. I don't think any of my friends see themselves or me as skinny or fat. We are just friends. I wish the rest of the world could be like this.
i_am_jan
pugs: I wish me & my friends would joke around with each other more, it seems like it would make things a little easier. Maybe we could stop taking our bodies/looks so seriously. But unfortunately my friends are all about dieting/fashion. (Can I come hang out with you guys? I could tube with the short kids. AND WE WOULD TAKE YOU DOWN!! ha ha laugh.gif )

LoveMyPugs
well seeing that my man is 6 ft 4 and 300 lbs I guess we'd have to make him lay on his stomach so we could cut down on wind resistance. You on the other hand could ride in the front as look out since your short and with me in the back adding weight. With my weight and your height. We'd be unstopable. That's only purely due to the laws of physics right? LOL
i_am_jan
pugsy: Now you've got me laughing out loud ya goof...

thanks I needed that today laugh.gif
lilyblue
i_am_jan, i totally agree. i have decided to girlcott all those fear-mongering industries. i mean, that's what they are really selling: fear.

here's a post you may like: http://www.therotund.com/?p=11
i_am_jan
Yes, yes...they ARE selling fear.

Fear of your natural body - whatever it looks like - because the moment you begin to accept your natural body, you stop buying products and services to change it. They have set up an IMPOSSIBLE body STANDARD for that very reason.

Fear of aging, again a natural, beautiful process that is the divine will of the universe. To grow old. Like a big old tree. And again, because if we weren't afraid of aging, we'd stop buying the stupid makeup and the stupid creams, lotions, surgeries (for gods sake), etc.

I was in the room with my poor old mother the other day. She's such a good person and has lived her entire life working and sacrificing for others. The TV was on and I felt so guilty and so bad in my heart every time one of those commercials came on showing a lady's face who was younger than my mom and of course suggesting that the woman looked embarrassingly bad, needed to change, had 'dull' skin, etc. It just hurt to see my mom have to see that.

These industries are LITERALLY PREYING on women.

And then to add insult to injury, none of that horsecrap ever really even works...? The FDA does not require "beauty" products to stand by their promise...i.e., they can say a product does whatever they want to say it does and do not have to deliver on that promise.

We have a divine RIGHT to be ourselves, a RIGHT to grow, whether it be larger, smaller, or older, whatever.

I'm ignoring them

???
culturehandy
I find is absolutley disgusting that we, as grown women, are expected to have the hips of a 13 year old, yet be voluptuos and have curves, have a J-Lo ass, big boobs, and young looking skin. Women will never be good enough through the eyes of the media. Never. We will never achieve the perfect body size, we will always be too big or too small. Which I find vile a repulsive.

For example, I was flipping through channels and the tv program was talking about celebrity bodies, they gave a hats off to one of the desperate housewives for having such a great body, then not 5 minutes later, they were talking about how she was "too" skinny, and putting her down for having lost so much weight. I was thinkin, what the hell is that?

My thing is that yes I have a less than "ideal" stomach, but I also have a large amount of muscle mass, I think that is very sexy. Woman who have muscular bodies are very attractive to me, as is ass and breasts. I used to be a size 2-4, I still had curves, but when I went back up to the size I am now, I got those curves back, and I got boobs! I was thrilled! I mean, nice ones too. My thing with sizes is that they are evil. I can be anywhere from a 6 to a 10 or 12. I have a pair of jeans, they are size 6, I can go to a store pick up an 8 and think, what the fuck is this? My doctor even said that by the charts they are using, I'm considered overweight. As a size 6 to 8. and beacuse it's mostly muscle mass. she told me not to worry, but fuck, this is a sick world...

I remember reading somewhere in here, that it is so easy to blame someone for being big. I realize that morbid obesity is become endemic, but what we should be most concerned about is the disease that accompanies the lifestyle that society is making us live. As stated earlier, it is not easy to cook, clean, work, but fresh organic food, etc. It is not affordable to the majority of people nor is it time friendly. I work with people who are low income, what a lot of people get in one month, I make double and triple of. And some of these are familes of 10. Anyways...we are expected to eat shit food, yet still have the "ideal" figure, and not have disease that accompanies eating poorly.

As for blaming "fat" people, this is unfair, we all assume that "fat" people (and what is fat by today's standards? Being over a size 0?) are lazy, unmotivated, and have a really poor diet, but again, who are we comparing ourselves to? Celebrities, who have millions upon millions of dollars, who don't have 9 - 5 jobs, who hve trainers, chefs, nannies, and, well, pretty much whatever they want. If you look at those who are often "overwieght" you have to look as socioecomic status. If you are a low income earner or getting any sort of government assistance, you aren't getting a whole lot of money, which means you aren't going to spend your money on fresh food that costs 3/4's of your cheque, especially when you have a family. No, you are going to buy food that will last, and that doesn't mean eating healthy. To top it all off, who has the money for a gym membership in cases like this?

Society is a double standard in itself. You have to make time for your family, but you also have to work out, cook dinner, and doing anything for yourself is being selfish, but if you don't take time for yourself you are considered a doormat. You shouldn't get out and go to the park because all the terrorists are going to gas you or put anthrax spores in the local roses that you are smelling, but if you don't get out you can't live a healthy lifestyle. If you don't watch television and get caught up on whatever the newest television hit is you are considered some sort of social reject, but if you do watch that television show, shame on you for watching too much tv and not getting out and being healthy.

/end rant.


i_am_jan
The media is very underhanded these days. Here's what I mean.

Out of OBLIGATION - AND - trying to appear as a FRIEND to women as they sell us crap - they do comment on how celebs are "too skinny".

However, I have noticed a new tactic they're using.

You see the "Star" mags or "Celebrity" mags. The front cover will show Nicole Richie, etc. - all the people they have skinny-looking pics of. The headline on the mag will read "Nicole's Getting Skinny Again." right?

So...knowing these people are ALSO trying to sell you the celebrity LIFESTYLE, clothing they're wearing, etc. - don't you get the feeling those mags are ACTUALLY saying to you: LOOK - THE CELEBS ARE DIETING. THEY'RE GETTING SKINNY. LOOK HOW THEIR BODIES LOOK. (I.e., these people are the cream of the crop. And THEY want to be skinny. Shouldn't YOU, TOO?)

See what I'm getting at? They're not actually "reporting" on anorexia as much as they are literally selling it to you.

Esp. young/teen girls who actually pay attention to that stuff.

And yes, culturehandy: that's why you'll see them positive reinforce a celebrity and ALSO mention the fact that she's SKINNY.
nickclick
not that we should care so much what the tabloids are shilling, because c'mon, everyone knows they suck, but if you notice when they do that "nicole richie/lindsay lohan/britney spears is sooooo skinny" headline, it's usually from some sort of we're-so-concerned angle, concerned about her mental and physical health. but all those headlines about kirstie alley or oprah or rosie o'donnel being fat make them look like evil crazies! like they're doing some sort of disservice to society by gaining 20 lbs.
i_am_jan
Nick: Yes, they do make fat people look like evil villians...?!

And true, who cares about the tabloids...however, I am always surprised at how many people do actually follow celebrity culture these days...and people who I wouldn't really suspect get sucked in somehow. Anyone who hates anybody else because of their body size has been sucked in, because that hate stems from fear. Anyone who is not accepting of someone else's body size is not accepting of their own body when it all comes down.
cstars124
culturehandy, I read your rant and I was nodding the entire way through it. It's awful!

That's all I really have to say. smile.gif
lilyblue
is anyone else sick of the moral imperative to be and look "healthy"?

i am. i am sick of the need to tell fat folks that all the teasing/bullying/criticising is because someone is concerned about their "health". it's not about health, it's about looks. it's about control.

the same goes for telling skinny women to "eat a sandwich".

if we were really concerned with health, we would do things to make everyone healthy. we would not be stressing out people.

i wish that we could all be happy and truly healthy. not this healthism that society at large is spewing.
nickclick
here's an interesting article from NY Times about how "people with the least amount of money to spend on food are the ones most likely to be overweight."

talks about US govt's support of suppliers of cheap ingredients for giant corporations making cheap food. in other words, it's difficult to be eat healthy unless you can afford to. it's also affecting global economy.

i'm not conceding to the equation that being fat means being unhealthy. but as discussed here, many make that correlation. and instead of the blaming video games and chicken mcnuggets we should look at our food policies.
i_am_jan
Very interesting article. Yes, 'unhealthy' doesn't mean 'fat' or 'skinny'. Unhealthy is when you work too much to have time to exercise or have any more than roughly 3 weeks off work in a year's time. It's when you can't afford to eat healthy foods. And 'unhealthy' also means - having no health insurance. Because then you can't afford to see doctors.

Lily: I love what you have to say. Society at large is in fear and rightfully so from all of the BS handed down to us from the so-called 'professionals' and has been reduced to projecting their own fears onto others; judging and policing one another, blaming, etc. When will it end?

I think it HAS to begin with awareness. Which could be good because it actually could be simple to spread awareness ... ? I'm trying to think of what I could do. I did forward Nick's article to everyone on my email list. I think I'll start writing to the advertisers again, local papers, etc., like I did back in the 90's!!
faerietails2
I just saw this article about how fat workers cost employers more. Great, just what the world needs...another excuse for workplace discrimination.
thereshegoes
i didn't know where else to share this so i'll say it here. my therapist recommended i see a psychiatrist about anti-depressants, and the doctor Rx'ed me Wellbutrin and told me that as an added bonus, i may lose weight. i have been in therapy for years, and my therapist has always focused on self-acceptance, so it was a shock.

the sick thing is that i am kinda intrigued. . .
thereshegoes
i didn't know where else to share this so i'll say it here. my therapist recommended i see a psychiatrist about anti-depressants, and the doctor Rx'ed me Wellbutrin and told me that as an added bonus, i may lose weight. i have been in therapy for years, and my therapist has always focused on self-acceptance, so it was a shock.

the sick thing is that i am kinda intrigued. . .
chachaheels
Faerie tales, I just went on the hunt for the actual documentation of that study, which is supposedly paid for by the National Institute for Occupational Safey and Health, and it is not coming up in their archives or anywhere on the list of their site's publications. I even looked under the named co-researcher, but nothing came up for me. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

Huh.

I'd really like to know how "obese" was defined (was BMI the only "indicator"? It's not very reliable, nor is it applicable equally to women), what kind of workplaces were "studied" and who the participants were (were they all middle aged men? 'Cause that would sure make the findings largely unapplicable to anything real where women are concerned) Was there any attempt to analyze the dynamics in the workplace so that they included the possible added sick-making pressures of fat-discrimination? How do these findings compare across work in all economic levels? If no comparison was made, exactly what kind of work and workers were being studied? What kind of proof are they offering (whose data on illness and claims are they using?) I think these points need to be made really clear for anyone to take this "study" even remotely seriously.

None of this information is made clear, so the conclusion looks like a broad, sweeping generalization which translates into a green light to discriminate in hiring practices. To say in an article that the "researchers" did this study so that employers should not discriminate but instead pay out $ to keep employees skinny is just idiotic, especially when so little evidence is actually presented in the widely published article (everyone has exactly the same article published all over the world, too).
nickclick
spock's a photog and champion of fat girls?!?!??!??!?
Girth and Nudity, a Pictorial Mission

the pics
(maybe not work-safe)

i have to say, as a photographer and a fat girl, they're pretty good.
culturehandy
That was pretty cool.
silverhalide
Has anyone read the gender myth? I forget the author's name, but she is a biologist and also a professor of women's studies. Anyway, she has some really interesting things to say about biology that applies to this whole "overweight" business. That biology is affected by the environment it is in. Again, taking away some of the blame of those who are overweight--that you have to look at socioeconomic status and how that effects the food that you buy, which then effects your body and biology. This could then be passed on over to children..so being overweight is not necessarily something you can totally control for some people. She makes some excellent points regarding biology and environment. Of course we have to look at personal choice, but food in our society is so class oriented. You can't afford to shop at whole foods if you are on welfare. Also, if you have a lot of hungry growing children and you are short on money, you aren't exactly going to be buying them salads and tofu everyday.
chachaheels
Not to mention that tofu is not the kind of food you want to be eating everyday, and that vegetarianism isn't the best choice for everyone. Even vegetarians need nutrient rich foods of every kind!

I haven't read that book, silverhalide, but I do know that environment/realities, including socio-economic ones, definitely impact your present health as well as the health of your descendants. So do other environmental/situational realities, such as access to culturally relevant foods and established food combination/eating patterns which have been replaced, for the most part, by the vast variety of processed foods and bioengineered foods which make up so much of our food basket. These realities are at the root of certain disease "epidemics" which spring from malnutrition, such as diabetes type II.

In our world, even the ones with all kinds of access to food are buying (for the most part, if their source of foods is the supermarket) nutritionally depleted produce grown in soils that lack topsoil and nutrients (especially if they've been farmed using chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and herbicides for decades); this in turn is being used to feed livestock (or not--most livestock is now fed some kind of inappropriate biotech grain, even if they are strictly herbivores) which in turn gives us nutritionally depleted protein foods. So, people may have access to all the food they can buy, but so much of that food is so nutrient depleted it actually deprives our bodies of nutrients and just provides empty calories. No wonder stored fat is such a problem for so many people. We're stuffing our faces but getting no fuel for our bodies. A starving body packs fat away, if it can, simply for the sake of trying to survive. It'll slow down metabolism by alterning glandular function out of necessity.

If your ancestors were deprived of nutrient rich foods, you can actually see the signs of that history in your own physical and emotional well-being today, and you will also see it in the way you keep off weight or put it on. Food choices aren't really all that relevant, given what we inherit from our ancestors' own experience with food quality, access to traditional foods, scarcity or abundance. So many people we think are fat as a result of poor food choices are actually not even able to assimilate nutrients from foods--including the very important minerals that our bodies can't do without. Where that kind of physical inability exists, you are far more likely to find a "fat" person who stores fat as a means of survival, no matter what they eat. "Diets" might work if they eat so little they starve the fat off--but that doesn't solve the problem, it just makes the problem of nutrient assimilation even worse. We've all seen people like this gain all their weight back immediately and at a faster rate. That's all physiological. People like this gain weight even on "diets" restricted to 800 calories a day. That problem is then compounded by the fact that a suppressed metabolism creates glandular dysfunction, which leads to specific food requirements. So if, for example, you've dieted away your weight at 1200 calories a day but now that you're eating 1400 calories you're gaining, and you find you're craving sugar, chances are really good your thyroid and parathyroid glands are no longer functioning properly. You will crave and need to eat foods that are very starchy and very sugary just to try to enhance those underfunctioning glands. This, of course, will affect your blood sugar as well, and logically, your pancreas. And on and on, as the chain of organs and glands affected carry these dysfunctions through.

So we're really blinding ourselves if we believe the idea that calories and "willpower" are the only things determining body size, so much so that I think ignoring the other realities about the quality of our foods and the erroneous information that's being used to further the profit making ends of major corporations who come up with these pseudo-foods and wish to promote them as much as possible is really just an extension of sizism. It keeps us ignorant to the real problem and guarantees at least 2 separate billion dollar industries--biotech food and the massive diet industry, built up largely out of this prejudice, and the promotion of the idea that "people just aren't making the right food choices and they're not exercising enough".
silverhalide
Exactly--excellent post. It is so scary what is really in our food, especially meat.
silverhalide
Exactly--excellent post. It is so scary what is really in our food, especially meat.
mornington
*delurks*

I haven't read all the way down the thread recently, but chacha and silverhalide put me in mind of studies/observations done on other animals (and more general surveys done on people). If the mother becomes pregnant during a period of low/limited food availability, the offspring is more likely to put weight on easily - because the mother's problems getting enough nutrition result in offspring expecting to be born into a time of low food availability, and therefore thier body does it's damnedest to get all the nutrients it can - including fat - when it's available. But then again, stickland's studies on feeding rats junk food shows that a really unhealthy diet (chips, sweets, donuts, etc) is likely to produce offspring with insulin resistance (ie the onset of diabetes) and higher fat layers.

and i really liked nimoy's photographs, I thought they were beautiful
Arcadia
Oh, this is such an age-old debate.

I really hate that women my size (I float between a 14 and a 16) and height (I'm 5'9") are seemingly freaks by society's standards. I generally like my body. I like that it feels strong. I like that it is also very soft. I'm very curvy. I don't have a flat stomach and that doesn't really bother me.

Unless! I'm standing next to my thin sister. When we are doing something together I tend to feel . . . . less about myself and that isn't right. Even though I know she obviously has something wrong with her because she rarely eats and when *I* eat in front of her she looks at me very critically. So critically in fact that I don't eat with or in front of her anymore. I shouldn't *have* to feel that way when standing next to a thinner woman, but I do because of the new norms.

I don't know how it is acceptable for society to look down on "larger" women. It's really fucking pathetic, if you ask me. I don't need to look like Britney Spears to be successful and I hate that society and the media portray success as such (even though Britney has gone a little crazy these days). I don't overeat and I'm healthy. Just because I'm not a size two doesn't mean that I'm not worth anything.

Ugh.
Sorry for the rant, I'm feeling a little put off tonight.
candycane_girl
chacha, my mom was watching some health show with a doctor, I think it was that Dr. Oz guy and he was basically saying the same thing. We keep eating and eating because the food that we do get isn't full of the nutrients that we need. So instead of feeling satisfied our bodies just feel that they need more food. It was basically something along those lines, definitely not as complex as what you wrote.

I just wish I knew where to get healthy, organic food. For example, my local supermarkets are pretty much Zehrs (owned by Loblaws) and Sobey's. There is a farmer's market and it's all the way across town but I don't even know if any of the vendors actually sell organic food. I'm going to be moving to Toronto in a few months and I hope that maybe I'll find more options around there for organic food. I do want to eat healthier and be more satisfied when I eat but I feel like it's an uphill battle to find good food.

Sorry for steering the convo more towards food than the actual issue of sizism.
knorl05
also* in all my reading.. i've always heard that when we are dehydrated our bodies misinterpret that as hunger. so many times when we think we are hungry, we're actually just thirsty.
knorl05
arcadia. you are entirely right. the media and society's misconceptions need to be challenged. it's bullshit. what i'm learning is the more we stand up and speak the truth the less significance the preconceived ideas have on our self worth. the number one most absolute thing we have to do is not give in, not go along with it simply because it is the popular vote. we absolutely have to live our lives how we see fit and demand whatever it is that we want for ourselves regardless of how (we think) people feel about us.
chachaheels
CandyCaneGirl, are you still in the Toronto area? If you are, there are literally thousands of coops, CSA's, "greenbox" programs, and organic markets you can get in that city. If you want to PM me about where you are, I can help you locate all kinds of organic produce, raw milk/cheese sources, and free-range/pasture fed meats suppliers close to home. You don't have to rely on Loblaws or Sobey's and because there are so many organic sources the price of the food is very similar to regular stuff sold in those supermarkets.

Mornington--the animal studies you quote are so similar to the phenomena recorded by Weston Price when he did his comprehensive nutrition studies on various peoples all over the world. Traditional diets always focused on what to eat in order to have the healthiest, "perfect" babies--good metabolism, strong bones and perfect teeth, no difficulty with reproduction in any way, basically human beings with bodies which grow, flourish, and die as we're supposed to: not after long term chronic illness, but simply by just not waking up one day after living a long life.

The traditional diets he recorded all included foods we're constantly being told are "bad" foods--lots of meat protein and fat, lots of dairy fat, lots of whole grains, rich sauces, shellfish if it was available...basically extremely high fat diets (like, up to 80% fat) and yet, obesity was never recorded as a problem until access to traditional foods were lost (and the refined grain/sugar diets that our modern society now eats in quantity became all that was available). Dr. Price did his research at the turn of the last century, when a kind of economic colonialism forced these changes on peoples all over the world, but if you look at the epidemic rates of Diabetes I and II in First Nations populations in Canada, for example (where access to traditional food diets has really been shut down during the last half of the 20th century) you can see a living re-enactment of exactly the kind of nutritional decline Price recorded so thoroughly. More than half of the First Nations populations in Canada suffer from Diabetes, and the incidences just keep increasing.

Price noted that when people anywhere in the world were forced to stop eating the foods they ate as part of their traditional diets, the problems with obesity (among other things) set in fairly rapidly--as in, in the first generation of the people without access to traditional foods. His comprehensive, indepth, long term studies confirmed that obesity is a symptom of nutritional deficiency, pure and simple. It's not the only one, but it is a BIG one.

How hard is it to see that most of the "food" we now eat is devoid of real food, which is often just replaced by "flavourings" and colorants, or eliminated all together and replaced by "aromas". We no longer make soup using meat and bone--now every broth on the market including the "organic" ones all include MSG and perfume to replace the lack of real food we'd traditionally use to make the same thing. Thing is, the real food contains protein and fats, vitamins and minerals in a colloidal form--the easiest, richest, most bioavailable form of food out there. MSG and perfume is chemical with no nutritional benefit, but with side effects which include creating weight gain.

When you consider how little we're actually getting from our food, it is patently ludicrous to "blame" obesity on individual choice, especially since choice is so limited, and limited by so many factors. Sizism really is like hating a person whose colour differs from your own, just because it differs. It's really hate for the sake of hating alone.

And because so much is at stake economically if we were to forego this hate, we're going to continue to see all kinds of institutions continue to blame individuals in the name of "health".

And individuals will continue to be convinced that they're deserving of that hatred, even to the extent where we internalize that hatred against our own selves.

I had to jump in again to ask if anyone read the article on Leonard Nimoy published in the NewYork Times about that exhibit--I loved where he said he was nervous photographing nudes at first, but the women were so comfortable in their bodies that they allowed him to be at ease, too. No wonder the photos are so beautiful.
silverhalide
I remembered the name of the author-biologist Anne Fausto Sterling. I highly recommend her books.
candycane_girl
chacha, I'm not in Toronto yet, I'll be moving up there in August. I'm really excited about it!
candycane_girl
Did I kill the thread? Sorry!
Arcadia
I will admit here and now that I read Perez Hilton. Can't help it, it's an addiction!

ANYWAY.

The first post I saw on it tonight was the lead singer of The Gossip (Beth Ditto) is on the cover of NME naked.

Now, for any of you who know The Gossip, you know Beth is definitely not your "normal (whatever that means) sized" woman.

So I saw the cover and I LOVE it. I'm so happy that a "plus-sized" woman is starkers on this magazine! It encourages me and makes me feel so enlightened. I don't know what it is, I'm just glad that the magazine just went for it. She is pretty awesome.

However, I'm not too happy about the asinine comments on the Perez page about her being gross. What the hell is wrong with people? I can see how some people would think a larger woman naked is gross, because I sometimes think the same thing about some thinner women just because they can really show too much skin when it's unnecesary (like a girl I work with). I just wish that the standards could be equal for all body shapes and sizes.

Any thoughts?
faerietails2
QUOTE(chachaheels @ May 5 2007, 04:53 AM) *
To say in an article that the "researchers" did this study so that employers should not discriminate but instead pay out $ to keep employees skinny is just idiotic.

A couple of weeks ago, my job gave out these brochures for the new health plan that also talks about the benefits of weight loss for yourself and the company (less health problems for you, more productivity for the company rolleyes.gif). They will now pay part of your Weight Watchers fees as part of your benefits package.
go_kayte
Beth Ditto is so awesome!!! She's plus sized, didn't shave her pits for the shoot, and is so undeniably sexy. I love her. Yummmmmmmmm!
Arcadia
go_kayte!

I LOVVVVVVVVVVVVE THAT SHE WAS ON THE COVER!

She's nothing like a normal "cover model" and I love it! I can't help it!

Love it love it love it!

(I could possibly say "love" some more but I'll stop now.) laugh.gif
J'adore Biscuit
I don't think sizism is acceptable, but at the same time, I don't think people should be angry at the media when they don't portray plus sized models often. Because even though all body types should be accepted, there's a certain point where being overweight IS unhealthy, just as much so as being anorexic. And of course people would probably get more angry seeing a super skinny girl on a magazine cover versus a plus size woman. I guess it depends on what you consider to be overweight.
go_kayte
Ugh, this sucks:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6710845.stm


Air hostesses told to shed weight

An Indian court has ruled against a group of female flight attendants who were grounded from the national airline for being overweight.
nickclick
"The Indian airline industry has grown rapidly over the past decade"
ha, i wonder if the writer noticed the pun...

what a bunch of bs. airline safety as an excuse to hire thin young women and fire fat old ones? uh hem, and what about air "hosts?"
rositachiquita58
Just wanted to drop by and say that I sympathize with your problem. I am 4'10 and "skinny" (under 100 lbs) but also kind of pear-shaped--it is nearly impossible to find clothes, models never look like me, nor do actresses or women in ads. I'm not on clothing charts; often I'm not even on medical charts. Because I can only wear a size five in shoes (and sometimes 5s are too big), I have trouble finding shoes.

I often feel ignored by people behind counters at restaurants, patronized by people speaking to me, and conspicuous. There was a time when I even dreaded going to the grocery store.

I know the issues do not overlap that much, but I do feel like I have a little bit of insight. I get really tired of hearing people say that skinny women are ugly or bitches or that they hate "small" women. If a size 6 is small, what am I? Invisible?

Well, I know this isn't the place for *me* to bitch; I just wanted to remind you that there are skinny women on your side, too. smile.gif
go_kayte
I hear you rosita. Unfortunately there is a slim (no pun intended) window of acceptable sizes in society. This message of "tall but not too tall, thin but not too thin", is discouraging and damaging to all women.
candycane_girl
I am cross posting this in the Feminist Outrage thread.

I was reading one of the headlines from an online ad magazine that I'm subscribed to and one of the headlines was "Ads Say Men Don't Like Large Women". To sum up the article, some yogurt company in Brazil substituted fat women in sexy movie roles. Then at the end of it the ad says "Forget about it. Men's preference will never change. Fit Light Yogurt."

wtf?!


anyhoo, here's the article, I think you can read it without being a subscriber.

the article
chachaheels
I just read an article in a magazine (I cannot, for the life of me, remember which magazine I read this in) about black men and new magazines (kinda like FHM and Maxim) geared towards black men, featuring photos of women they fantasize about.

None of these magazines feature women who are the skinny ideal. Actually, all the women shown and interviewed in the article were far more like what we would consider "big". Big breasts, big butts. And in one interview with one of the publishers, he talks about why: he said that after talking to and watching the behaviour of groups of men from all ages in the community, they would look at all kinds of women who walked by--big, tall, petite, everyday women. They talked about desiring all kinds of women, with big thighs, big butts, ample breasts, women we'd never see in a fashion magazine or in Hollywood, but the kind of women we see all the time, everywhere, around us. The publisher stated emphatically that there's only one kind of woman none of the men he's ever talked to or interviewed or researched for his publication never talked about, and that is the tall, skinny, fashion model ideal.

Oh, just remembered: it was the Village Voice, from about a month ago.

So, it seems that beauty ideal simply isn't being bought whole hog, as it were, by everyone in the world--it's just part of the hegemony.
chachaheels
I'll say those ads backfired. I'll also say whoever took and then chose those photos of those amazingly beautiful and sexy women did so deliberately, and I think they were very much trying to subvert the stupid pseudo-yogurt company. "Men's tastes never change" is absolutely right: all those women are just like those countless, ancient "goddess" statuettes and figurines and statues and monuments of huge women, with ample thighs, breasts, hips, you name it. And I propose that these women in this campaign were presented as stunning, iconic, and arousing on purpose, to look as much like those ancient goddesses as possible.

Some of these goddess icons and images are so ancient and so powerful that we've never been able to let go of their hold on us, and that goes for men, especially (though really, many men just won't admit it because they're scared of what their buddies will say about them. Their buddies are all thinking just like they are!). These "tastes" are hundreds of thousands of years old, and despite whatever some woman-hating, junk-pseudo-lo-fat-yogurt manufacturer has to say about it, they are not changing anytime soon.

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