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faerietails2
*bump for crazyoldcatlady*

I too am having a moment of anti-Christianity/seeing red right now. I just read a message from my sister (who got re-baptized last week and is getting brainwashed reintroduced to The Self-Righteous Life by going to her boyfriend's Baptist church). Anyway, she occasionally says stupid shit like "too bad insert famous dead person's name here wasn't christian, because they had so many awesome qualities." Fuck that.

In the words of Marylin Manson, "Who wants to go to Heaven with all those asshole angels?"
girltrouble
amen to that faerie...
crazyoldcatlady
ah yes, thanks for the bump. this is the one i was looking for. in the "this just in" thread i posted about the vatican reiterating that women can't be preists, and moreover, will be kicked out if they tried. i've been chewing on this for a few days. and whilst the comment about the space aliens isn't a papal decree, it really makes me wonder wtf they're smoking over there...


... but then i'm reminded of a great bill mahr quote (paraphrased) "You can't be a normal, rational human being and go to work 6 days a week and then on Sunday put on a suit and drink the blood of a 2000-year old Space God."
neurotic.nelly
The vatican and their high chief, the royal nimrod "fishhead", know there are ET's and they do not want your average worshiper to freak out if it ever came to pass as ET's being real, because God didn't mention anything bout' no aliens in da bible (actually they are mentioned in the bible). They're control and power would go to shit, better to admit it now.
kittenb
Having recently attended a funeral, I realized that I have come to miss having a spiritual community. In Chicago, most of the organized Pagans annoy me. They spend too much time Christian bashing or just being self-important.
Does anyone hear know much about Unitarians? Are there non-Christian Unitarians?
deschatsrouge
Yes, I sometimes go to the unitarian services in my town. You don't have to have beliefs of any sort to go to their services. I wouldn't even call them services, they are more like talks or interesting lectures. One thing you have to watch out for, Unitarians want you to invest a lot of time and money, and come regularly.

this is their visitors website
pollystyrene
I work in a dental office and we found this other dentist's office online and we just laughed and laughed...you've got to see it to *cough* believe it. Make sure you play it with the captions on and there is a way to adjust the time of each slide....

(Rod Flanders voice:) Cavities make baby Jesus cry...

Note all the spelling errors- my office manager actually called them to let them know they need to proofread their captions. laugh.gif
kittenb
I don't know, Polly. I was expecting much worse.

That is one beautiful building. However, I don't need to combine my religion w/my dental care.
pollystyrene
It is beautiful- spacious, the skylights are lovely; we just couldn't believe how much thought went into the religious symbolism of the building- I mean "the three walls of the waiting room symbolize the Holy Trinity"?!?! No, they're just freaking walls. The only reason there's three is because the reception desk is the fourth side. The spotlights outside that form a cross when lit? *puke*

I guess that's something I just don't get about Christians- this need to be constantly reminded of their religion. It just seems really insecure to me, like if there's any area of your life that doesn't reflect that, then it means you don't have complete faith in God or, worse yet, someone else might think you don't. I also think it's offensive when people try to cash in on Christianity...I don't think that Jesus would have done that.

Reminds me of a couple years ago, one of my mom's cousins (Irish-Catholic side of the family, so there's like a million of them) forwarded an online survey on behalf of her son who was in his late teens/early 20's and had an interest in photogoraphy. That particular family is either waaay more conservative Catholic than the majority of the family or maybe they'd even become born-agains, but the son was thinking of starting a photography studio and wanted to get people's opinions on what they'd think of a Christian-based photographer- if it would make them more or less like to go knowing the photographer's strong beliefs, if it would make them feel better to be in a studio where there were crosses on the wall, etc.

My mom and I took the survey and let the kid have it. We basically said it didn't matter what faith the photographer was, that it wouldn't make a difference if there were crosses on the wall or anything, but the fact that he was capitalizing on Christianity was just offensive and blasphemous.

I'm sure other family members told him how wonderful it was. I don't think he ever started up the business. rolleyes.gif
tesao
this might be a bit off topic, but here goes...

i recently watched "superman returns" on a movie channel.

HOW have i escaped the jesus parallels up until now?

Jor-el the Father who sends his Only Son to Save the Earth?

Who has Special Powers that are seen as Miracles by others?

Who stands for Truth, Justice and the American Way?

ai ai ai.

chachaheels
You know, the television superman on Smallville is slightly less pronounced on the Jesus-ness of Superman, but Superman's just another in a long line of Jesus-like archetypes. Jesus himself is one of the long line, too.


Prometheus
Bacchus
Jesus
St. Sebastian
Superman

all the same figures. The TV Superman leans much more towards the Promethean example though--what with all the "fire/lightning/explosion" imagery...and all the incredible empathy of the character. Any way you slice it, all these figures end up badly: in a forest and pierced and shredded by women, including mom, or on a cross and pierced by nails and spears, or chained to a mountain and pierced by liver eating birds, or chained to a post and pierced by arrows, or hidden in an ice cave and pierced by kryptonite.

Slight variations on exactly the same theme. We need saving!
ellenevenstar
The Dark Knight - the hero the city needs but 'isn't ready for' also the one who takes the blame to set things right.
faerietails
*smacks forehead*

wow, you're not the only one whose notice this escaped, tes...and it's so obvious, too, eh?

now it's gonna be the first thing i think of when i watch superman (kinda like whenever i watch the fucking matrix, although that franchise goes into hardcore overkill with the savior crap)
girltrouble
back to superman, i find it a bit ironic, that superman is such a christ figure, considering the people who created him were jewish, the director of S.R. is jewish. i'm not all that familiar with jewish mythology as far as what the messiah is supposed to be, but since it predates jesus (spanish pronouniation, please) i wonder if it's a jewish architype we've all accepted as americana/xtian.
ellenevenstar
Interesting... wouldn't Jung say it's a primal human archetype, though, that various cultres / religions have appropriated (or tapped into) and shaped?

Maybe the director of SR was commenting that the likelihood of Jesus being the messiah is akin to the likelihood of superman being real. - ?
tesao
not sure, because i'm not jewish, either. i do know that the old testament is shared by both jews and xtians, so the idea of a messiah is certainly present. i can't remember if the messiah is supposed to be born of man, the way that jesus (hay-zeus, just for you, girl trouble!) was born of man.

ellen elvenstar, i agree with you about jung and the archetype.

what is S.R.?
ellenevenstar
SR = Superman Returns. Sorry tes!

I am not Jewish but I am pretty sure the messiah they await is a human one. I do know that when Jesus began his ministry, there was quite a bit of messianic anticipation among the Jews of his time and place and they were preparing for the coming of the messiah in different ways, including forming / joining sects (like the Essenes for example) being baptised by John the Baptist, and doing political stirring against the Romans, like the Zealots. Lots of people imagined that the messiah would overthrow the oppressive rule of the Romans so were disappointed with Jesus and his message of vulnerable love and humiliating death on the cross. Sorry... tangent.... What I am trying to do is give some explanation why I think that the messiah is 'supposed' to be human.
deschatsrouge
I always though that the messiah had to be human so humans could understand.
ellenevenstar
Ha ha, well I don't think humans understand much yet!!! I think we've got only fragments and glimpses of the mystery, expressed and twisted in SO many different ways.
faerietails
What the fuck is up with erecting huge crosses in the middle of nowhere (and I'm not talkin' run-of-the-mill church crosses)? I mean, shit. Freudian much?

I just drove from TX to NY (through TN and PA, et al), and if I never see another 50' tall white cross again I'll die happy. At one point there were three built perfectly centered so that you were forced to view them from the interstate for miles and miles and miles. I'm trying to admire the breathtaking mountains, and instead I have this shitty propaganda rammed down my throat because they were the only non-wilderness thing around. It's fucking vandalism of the scenery.

Even those obnoxious evangelical megachurches in Houston don't pull shit like that.

*kicks cross (hard) and ends rant*
auralpoison
It's funny, but I just a read a book that has a new Jewish messiah at it's heart. He's gay, he's a heroin addict, but he has the touch of the messiah. I can't rightly recall the term, there was whole lotta Yiddish involved. Basically, they find a pure red cow, somebody blows up a mosque in Jerusalem, & they try to get the new messiah in line, but wind up killing him instead after he runs away again. It's a noir/conspiracy type thing. Chabon's the "Yiddish Policemen's Union".
faerietails
I wanted to read Chabon's book, actually. Is it good?

A couple days ago I played Rufus Wainwright's "Gay Messiah" and she just about died. I love that song.

QUOTE
GOD HAS YOUR ATTENTION.

Yep. Just like feminism has yours, only YOU seek it out. Guess you're closer to converting than I am, eh?
auralpoison
I liked it. But am also a noir fan that also has a strong interest in Yiddish/Jewish culture. It wasn't as good as "Cavalier & Klay" but was an enjoyable read nonetheless.
mornington
A friend of mine showed this to me the other day, thought it might be an interesting read for people here (Cath Elliot is always an interesting read anyway, this just reminded me of this thread a little)

Comment is Free: I'm Not Praying

AP, I'm going to add it to the "to read" list (have you read any Christopher Brookmyre?)

Faerie - I've always wondered about that, although I kinda figured some of them were old and some kind of monument. But yes, they always seemed... pointless. Domineering and threatening sometimes, but beautiful in others (the one I saw in South Africa that seemed part of the landscape as it was local stone and surrounded by grown trees etc)

auralpoison
No, I haven't but I've always liked the design of his books. I like a good cover & have read some interesting things that way!

It's interesting. I typed "giant crosses" into Google & read a wealth of odd things.

You don't see the Jews building giant stars of David everywhere or building a massive menorah in an empty field. There are no giant Crescent moons off of I70 reminding you that "Allah is coming so you better look busy!"
pollystyrene
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Aug 25 2008, 10:40 AM) *
You don't see the Jews building giant stars of David everywhere or building a massive menorah in an empty field. There are no giant Crescent moons off of I70 reminding you that "Allah is coming so you better look busy!"


You don't see the rest of us telling other Busties their contributions to a thread are worthless, either.
auralpoison
Nevermind. I got it now.

It's weird, though. I've never seen a black velvet King David painting or little figurines of Mohammad playing baseball with small children. Why is Christianity so goddamned tacky sometimes?

ETA, It suddenly occurs to me that I have never actually seen a Hare Krishna in an airport. I eat at their temple sometimes because the food is good, the company interesting, & it's free. Yeah, I still kick a tenner to the kitty, but it is free.
mornington
weeeeeell... representations of Mohammed are haraam wink.gif Although personally, I think the little jeebus figurines are really creepy, so maybe islam is just displaying some good sense.

I think I've seen a Krishna in the airport, years ago, but they weren't singing or anything - so maybe they were meeting a friend. Although I've also seen a pair of Krishnas in a bike rickshaw, and they *were* singing and drumming and making everyone stare.
Queen Bull
*delurk* i was a member of the 'krishnas' for a while. It was very interesting. and i agree with AP, they have great food. smile.gif *relurks*
auralpoison
I was just using it as an example, no shirk intended. A black light prayer rug instead?

The little man that owned the little liquor store I went to was Muslim. I knew that he couldn't consume alcohol nor sell it according to Hadith, but there he was selling hooch to the heathens. We'd gotten to be quite friendly & when I asked about it, he likened it to being a Jew that liked bacon or a Catholic on BC. Allah would forgive him for making a living. Otherwise he was observant. Well, he did like to ogle my boobs.

The only time I've ever really enjoyed lentils was at that Temple. Dang, those were good.
mornington
quite a few of the cornershop off-licenses around here are run by muslims. Hell, I know plenty of muslims who drink (the mothership's boyfriend being one of them). If people choose a religion, they also choose how much to adhere to the rules of that religion, same as plenty of catholics use condoms and plenty of jews don't pray three times a day.


that would be a fantastic prayer rug laugh.gif
auralpoison
See, exactly! People often choose how closely they adhere to the rules in their *personal* relationship with their chosen deity. I recall telling my friend's brother about liquor store guy & he insisted that I "must be mistaken" about him being a Muslim. He himself was a very lapsed Catholic, I was surprised at his being so hardlined on things. It didn't bother Khalid to sell me vodka, so I was like whatever. Khalid still sold me booze & offered up interesting commentary about whatever late night show was on when I came in.
ellenevenstar
AP and faerietales - Buddhism and Hinduism are big on figurines - some are beautiful, majestic and meaningful. Some are tacky. There are lots of giant Buddhas around the place too, but certainly not on the sides of highways, as far as I'm aware - they are in places where people actually WANT to see them! We have lots of giant things in Australia (The Big Pineapple, The Big Merino, The Big Prawn...) but I've never seen giant crosses like that anywhere here.

AP & mornington - yes, I totally agree. People don't get that there are many ways of being Muslim / Jewish / Christian / Sikh / Buddhist / Hindu etc etc etc etc. Within the vague orientation of their religion, people use their own discernment and reason to decide how to live. It sometimes amazes me that people with such wildly different beliefs and practices belong to the same religon. I think it's a good thing that this diversity exists, but most people tend to imagine a religious stereotype based on very little knowledge and assume that anyone who adheres to any given religion is the same.

Which segues nicely to my next point...

Re: I'm not praying (Cath Elliott) - Thanks for the link mornigton, I did find that interesting & worth reading. She says "the term 'Christian feminist' is an oxymoron" - sorry, but that is a huge overgeneralisation. I agree that, for the most part, Christianity has been (and definitely continues to be) a vomit-inducingly patriarchal and oppressive institution but if Cath Elliott knew much about contemporary theology or knew some of the insipring, strong, autonomous, feminist nuns and Catholic school teachers and aid workers that I know, I don't think she would be declaring such a sweeping write off of the whole religion. It's like when people tell me that because I'm in a heterosexual relationship I must be oppressed. How insulting, like I've got no clue about my own life / relationship / religion.
zoya
**delurks**

there was a time in my life that if it wasn't for the Hare Krishna temple a mile down the road from my apartment, that I would have been eating ramen all the time. I thought they were great - I never ever felt forced into even participating in their religion, they just sang a bunch of songs then served dinner, and if you wanted to stay for the talk after, you could - or they'd give you a hug and send you on your way, telling you you were welcome any time. I remember back in the day when people said they were a cult, and now no one even gives them a second thought..
crazyoldcatlady
what do you ladies & gents know about gnosticism?
nohope
Gnosticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

wikipedia it's your fiend
crazyoldcatlady
QUOTE
Gnosticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

wikipedia it's your fiend


yeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, that's a pretty obvious place to start. i was looking more for bustie personal experience.

and yes. wikipedia is a "fiend."
faerietails
*snort*

cocl, you almost made me spit out my seltzer!
nohope
Who and what inspires your targets—say, the lawyers in Salzburg? Surely it's not greed that makes them agree with such lunacy.
Right: it's mostly faith.
The power of faith to transcend the most obvious logic is a well-established phenomenon. When the Crusaders discovered themselves in pitched battle against Christians they had travelled thousands of miles to save, they refused to amend their theory that these Christians needed their help. Faith!
Faith, likewise, spurred thirty-nine web developers to don Nikes and swallow poison, on the theory—not backed by much solid evidence—that they’d shortly meet up on the Hale-Bopp Comet. (The “Heaven’s Gate” suicide was remarkable among mass suicides for its interface with observational astronomy.) And when Appalachian snake handlers insist on dancing with poisonous critters, despite not-so-rare deaths and lost limbs, it is from faith in the theory that God is protecting them. (The basis for this often-contradicted theory is two Biblical verses: “They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them”—Mark 16:18—and “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions”—Luke 10:19.)
Similarly, our audience of lawyers in Salzburg had a theory—that the free market could bring happiness to the world at large—and they had the deepest possible faith in it. We had imagined that if we pushed our proposals into the outer limits of ugliness, we could horrify our audience into objecting. But the nature of their faith was such that so long as our proposals derived from the one true theory, there was no way they would ever see anything wrong with them.
We weren’t the first sloppy satirists to make the mistake. In 1703, a troublemaker named Daniel Defoe, seeking to show the absurdity of a bill forbidding non-Anglicans to hold public office, had suggested in a widely-published pamphlet that barring the scoundrels from office was a big waste of time, and that it would be much more efficient to simply execute them:

It is cruelty to kill a snake or a toad in cold blood, but the poison of their nature makes it a charity to our neighbours, to destroy those creatures! not for any personal injury received, but for prevention; not for the evil they have done, but the evil they may do!.... How many millions of future souls, [shall] we save from infection and delusion, if the present race of Poisoned Spirits were purged from the face of the land!... The light foolish handling of them by mulcts, fines, etc.; 'tis their glory and their advantage! If the Gallows instead of the Counter, and the galleys instead of the fine were the reward of going to [non-Anglican churches], there would not be so many... As Scipio said of Carthage, Delenda est Carthago! ... Let Us Crucify The Thieves!
[Note: Defoe was no scholar: it was Cato who pronounced Carthage deletable—Scipio merely did the deleting.]


Defoe, to his shock, found his histrionic, inaccurate, and profoundly ridiculous words taken seriously. A large number of radical Anglicans, thinking one of them had authored the screed, came out loudly in favor of execution; this solution, after all, was quite clearly consistent with the widely accepted theory that only Anglicans had any virtue, and that all others were “Poisoned Spirits” in the body politic.
We too discovered that once a premise is laid—whether it be the toxicity of dissenters or the friendliness of free markets—there is no way to push the implications enough to shake off believers. Why should international trade lawyers, presented with logical conclusions of a theory they deeply believe and practice each day, be any different from snake handlers,Crusaders, or radical Anglicans?
Since we hadn’t read Defoe, we were condemned to repeat him. At least we found ourselves just somewhat poorer, rather than, like Defoe, rotting in jail awaiting the pillory....

http://www.theyesmen.org/faq
deschatsrouge
bumpity bump for 12%
twelve_percent
I really love god but, like everything worth loving, there is a lot of stuff you have get past before you can connect on a real level.

People who judge you based on their relationship with god don't have a healthy relationship at all.
jsmith
Here's something I've never understood:
Xtianity (among other relgions) believes in this conscious afterlife. Individuals are so positive that they will see their loved ones who have already passed on. So when somebody they love dies, why do they mourn? They're allegedly convinced of this afterlife. Why don't they treat it like the person just moved somewhere else?
I can't reconcile these two things. Do you think there's an atheist in all of us?
roseviolet
JSmith, it's because they will miss having that person in their life. If a loved one dies - even if they believe they'll be reunited in the afterlife - they still don't know when that will be. It could be decades.

Just think of the people who you love in your life. Think of all of the things you did with them, the times you've laughed and cried together. Now imagine if they hadn't been a part of your life for the past decade. It would have a huge impact on you, wouldn't it. So basically, they mourn deceased loved ones for the same reason you probably do: because they'll miss their presence & influence in their lives.
nohope
QUOTE(roseviolet @ Jan 26 2009, 04:18 PM) *
JSmith, it's because they will miss having that person in their life. If a loved one dies - even if they believe they'll be reunited in the afterlife - they still don't know when that will be. It could be decades.

Just think of the people who you love in your life. Think of all of the things you did with them, the times you've laughed and cried together. Now imagine if they hadn't been a part of your life for the past decade. It would have a huge impact on you, wouldn't it. So basically, they mourn deceased loved ones for the same reason you probably do: because they'll miss their presence & influence in their lives.


I find this very problematic. It supposes that ones thoughts represent a reality rather than a narrative created threw the process of selective memories, memory magnification, memory reinterpretation and even memory creation out of whole clothe.

I would be more inclined to say that we morn because we get focused on the gap between reality and our expectations and that causes us some cognitive dissonance.

So in some sense I guess one could say that the after life is invented as an escape mechanism for the same reason that we morn. The idea of an after life gives us an opportunity to fix workout the divide between our expectation and reality. And the great part is that in almost every after life scenario, and I'm including reincarnation here, the basic idea is that you have eternity to do so. which is fortunate, cause given the law of averages, in a long enough time line anything is possible at lest once.

stargazer
when i think of mourning and being a spiritual woman (which is how i perceived and believe myself to be), i cry because i miss the person in their physical form. what they meant to me in the here and now. my own expectations and reality that life, at least on earth, is not forever. the vulnerability and ending of human life. how do i express these feelings? i cry. rationalizing my behavior and the afterlife does not negate the fact that i miss that person.


QUOTE(nohope @ Jan 26 2009, 01:43 PM) *
I find this very problematic. It supposes that ones thoughts represent a reality rather than a narrative created threw the process of selective memories, memory magnification, memory reinterpretation and even memory creation out of whole clothe.

I would be more inclined to say that we morn because we get focused on the gap between reality and our expectations and that causes us some cognitive dissonance.

So in some sense I guess one could say that the after life is invented as an escape mechanism for the same reason that we morn. The idea of an after life gives us an opportunity to fix workout the divide between our expectation and reality. And the great part is that in almost every after life scenario, and I'm including reincarnation here, the basic idea is that you have eternity to do so. which is fortunate, cause given the law of averages, in a long enough time line anything is possible at lest once.


nohope, i read your post. it makes sense. then again, it is a logic built on your values and the values of science which are complicated because these laws were created by a White, male dominant society. conscious reality and narratives are tough to prove scientifically because it is difficult to assess the direct and indirect impact of one's faith on their development and belief system, whether you are atheist or religious. it is one of the things i'm studying right now in my research. logistically, we know that a person's belief system influences their behavior, BUT is it the direct impact of that belief system or has things changed because of behavioral activation.

the afterlife thing is tough to prove even with the law of average point of view cause...well, no one has done research while dead. i guess this is where faith comes in.
Nadia
Religion is important.
culturehandy
What a perceptive answer.

*troll*
angie_21
jsmith - I mourn when people I am close to move away, because I know that even when we keep in touch, we will no longer be able to spend important time together. I also cry when my boyfriend leaves on a 3 week shift for work! I know I will see him again, but I am still sad. btw, I say this as an atheist, so I can't really speak for those who do believe in heaven.
koffeewitch
I guess I'm out to resurrect some dead threads today...I hope nobody minds.

My issue is this: The holidays are coming up, of course. I don't really talk to my own family of origin...but I can't escape spending time with Mr. Koffeewitch's family. Who are all fanatical born-again Christians. Hours upon hours of time when I have to constantly remind myself not to say things like "oh, God" because the fanatics find it offensive. (To say nothing of cutting down on my usual epithets, such as JesusBloodyFuckingChrist or "Sweet Tap Dancing Jesus"). I can also plan on getting books about raising children from a Christian perspective or even (yet another) Bible translation for modern times. I will be heavily out-numbered, so I get to keep most of my radical, pinko, Goddess-loving comments to myself. I try to keep to safe topics (my sister-in-law is also pro-midwife, natural birth and breast-feeding). Like me. But still, it's hard. ANd the gifts! I don't get them books/gifts that are going to offend THEM, like "How to Raise Non-Homophobic Children". I do recognize that they have the right to raise their kids to see gays as sinners. I could not disagree more...but this is their right. And the rest of the family are even more intolerable with overly personal questions, inappropriate comments, judgements, etc. I get to listen (quietly) in on conversations about how the nation is going "to Hell" (literally) and how we can't even post the 10 Commandments in public schools, blah, blah, fuckitty, blah.

Surely other Busties deal with this, too? How do you guys cope??
AbleDanger
I deal by engaging in huge rants about Revelations because it fits so closely to my obsession with the new world order and I can get my bf's dad going on it for hours. Then I count down the hours till I can go home and get stoned and try and rid myself of all the fear that I'm going to burn in hell, despite not believing in it, but for some reason I take it all in when I'm there. I still haven't figured out how to leave their house and not feel completely gross and negative. And my bf wants me to convert???? wtf! Anyways, maybe that's a rant for another thread, that definitely will include a wtf did we get back together piece. Sorry about the bitterness. But yeah, mostly I just try and enjoy the fanaticism because it gets me good things to laugh about later.
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