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pixiedust
Konfusion, I'm glad to see someone in here that is able to expess your christian faith so openly and easily. I've tried before and made a real muck of things, so I tend to stay out of religious discussions in here...

But I did want to say something about what Pepper mentioned about not eating meat. I know in most of the churches I have gone to...and I've been to many different denominations....there is a common belief that when Jesus was crucified in the New Testament, he took the place of the old testament sacrifices and made a new covenant with us. Some of the Old Testament laws like eating meat and ritual sacrifices didn't carry over to the new covenant.

I'm sorry I can't quote scripture and verse, but that's always the way it's been explained to me.

konphusion26
QUOTE(pixiedust @ Jan 29 2008, 03:22 PM) *
Konfusion, I'm glad to see someone in here that is able to expess your christian faith so openly and easily. I've tried before and made a real muck of things, so I tend to stay out of religious discussions in here...

But I did want to say something about what Pepper mentioned about not eating meat. I know in most of the churches I have gone to...and I've been to many different denominations....there is a common belief that when Jesus was crucified in the New Testament, he took the place of the old testament sacrifices and made a new covenant with us. Some of the Old Testament laws like eating meat and ritual sacrifices didn't carry over to the new covenant.

I'm sorry I can't quote scripture and verse, but that's always the way it's been explained to me.


Same with me Pixie! Thats the way I've been taught too. But I wasnt going to get into that discussion for fear of explaining it wrong. LOL We should chat sometimes!

Its not really easy for me to discuss my faith to people who don't believe the same things I believe lol but by grace its getting easier. I don't know who may be out there that needs to hear what has been put in me to share. I just hope that what I have said touches someone for God whether i make a fool out of myself or not LOL I guess my goal is to show everyone that not all Christians are the same and to embrace everyone. Not all of us are judgemental hipocrits (sp?) -- and yes there are alot of those out there that have put a bad taste in the spiritual mouths of our fellow man/woman who need the Word.
pixiedust
I totally agree. I just joined a new church and it's really awesome. They are non denominational and they really emphasize inclusion and accepting all people. They are really frank and honest and will tell that if you meet the pastor in Wal Mart, he's gonna be the same guy you talk to one Sunday morning. There is no put ons or fakeness! It's so different from any other church I've ever been to. And yet, the pastor started out baptist, so there is a sound doctrin for foundation.
tankgirl
its refreshing to see people comfortable with talking about their religion or lack there of. I myself am "spiritual but not religious" and have a hard time connecting with people's religious beliefs because I was raised in an atheist home. In fact, if I ever found religion my dad would probably try to disown me but thats another story. I don't think I will ever be into religion but I really respect people who can believe in God and not be a stereotypical, at the risk of sounding like an asshole, bigot.
konphusion26
SORRY FOR BEING A THREAD HOG LADIES!!! LOL I'm very passionate about faith, obviously right?

For myself, my family (some of them anyway) and my friends... we like to think of our faith as a personal RELATIONSHIP with God rather than "religion". To me religion signifies all these traditions and things that people have put into place. While those are okay, I prefer to have a closer relationship with my Creator that loves me as His own child than just some idea of an impersonal God that only holds us to strict rules and "doctrines". You know?? I truly believe that God wants to be close to us, but He doesn't force Himself on anyone. It is a choice to accept Him/His love or reject it.
minx
QUOTE(konphusion26 @ Jan 28 2008, 06:17 PM) *
I don't agree with them picketing the man's funeral. Stories like that make me as a Christian cringe. Don't let fanatics/extremists deter you from God hunny. Because when its all said and done, you and I will be held responsible for our belief or disbelief in Him. I'd much rather believe He is real now and find out otherwise later than to NOT believe and find out that God is real and has been real the whole time. Just something to think about.


This is called "Pascal's Wager". Check it out on Wiki, or in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion". Interesting stuff.

If deconstructed, Pascal's Wager is nothing more than covering your bets. It seems, actually, that going this route isn't even really "faith"...it's not wanting to be wrong, or acting in a way as though to avoid punishment. Since g*d ain't my Big Daddy, I'm not really concerned about an eternal spanking, but were somebody to be seriously defining the reasons why they believe, this argument would be the most hollow one available. No offense; it's just a really weak argument...the kind I heard in junior high when I was faced with a born-again thingie that I won't go into here.

I don't know that there are any arguments that would persuade an atheist. Faith is one of the most bizarre concepts I have ever heard of, to be completely honest. For everything else in the universe, we demand the burden of proof (thank you, ye founders of The Enlightenment, who got us out of germs, witch-hunts, and most theocratic monarchies). Yet we rely on faulty documents put together by power-hungry Catholic men, mistranslated over several hundreds of years, and some of which so far from the actual events as to be a game of "telephone".

My BFF is a total goddess-worshiper; it works for her and is about as personal and private as it gets. I don't get it, but it makes her happy. I cannot be content with notions that there is an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent g*d out there who only helps a select few...or those (as my mother would say) "who pray the right way". Eep. It just doesn't smack of love for humanity, or desire for a relationship. If that's a relationship, then it looks dysfunctional to me...and the whole "humans have a choice" thing doesn't really do right by me either, because I want to know what child in Nepal or South America made the choice to be born into poverty and die from lack of proper medical care.

And per the whole "rejecting the less savory texts in the bible", wasn't it Jesus who supposedly said he brought with him a new covenant? It would seem that he was sweeping away the stuff in the Old Testament (the fire and brimstone angry g*d) for the New and Improved Nicer g*d? Just wondering...

Personally, I'm content being a good person and working for the betterment of humanity. Once I bite it, game over.

*exits with a Ms. Pacman death sound*
girltrouble
while i agree with most of what you said, minx, i always find it baffling when people reject the entire concept of faith since we take so much on faith, starting with the most obvious: money. that is a faith that a piece of paper is worth more that the paper it's written on.


i came in here because i am constantly being prostheletized to at work. although i frighten most of them. i used to be a holy roller growing up, and i've experienced everything from catholicism to the evangelical/charismatic, and i was obsessed with prophecy as a kid-- the end result is that i find holes in every single argument thrown my way. i don't do it to be rude, and i am very polite in voicing my rejection, i've just believed most of those things, but then found the flaws, or atleast a different conception of a god(ess) that i could love.

like i said, i agree with you minx, pascal's wager always seemed not like belief, but fear, and the prefered pray'er plan (i.e. god loves me better than you) always seemed to invite xtians looking down on people. and i could never reconcile if god wanted us to have free choice or, if as the good book said, it's all been preordained. those two things are contradictions. if it's fated, then we don't really have much say, do we?

and i find the whole you-can't-be-moral-unless-you-have-jesus point of view insulting. and as i told the co-worker who said that, xtianity and morality aren't mutually exclusive. after all gary ridgeway, and the btk killer were both pillars in their churches. xtians can be evil, atheists can be very good.

i think of myself as an agnostic, i think there is an essence in all living beings, but they don't intercede in our lives, if anything they are, by all evidence, neutral. i doubt if there is anything more than some sort of collective essence of life, near as i can tell. there may be a god(ess), and infact i would bet that god is a she since creation is an act of giving birth, is it not?

just my take.

candycane_girl
I just wanted to come in here and give my two cents. I believe in a god, I don't know what it is and I think that it is too big to be defined by gender. But I don't like the idea of believing in god because you don't want to get in trouble for not believing in god. I believe in a god just because I do, not because I'm afraid of not getting into heaven or something.

GT, I agree about the morality and Christianity thing being insulting. I guess I've been kind of lucky because I have parents who come from two very different religions (mom is Anglican, dad is Sikh). It has given me a wider viewpoint about religion and god. However, I don't see why I couldn't just believe in both. I always get the feeling from a lot of people that it's like, you have to believe in one religion and that's it. But I find certain aspects of many religions to be helpful and I think that they were all created by god anyway so there's nothing wrong in believing in all of them.
roseviolet
Minx, who knew a death rattle could sound so ... synthesized? wink.gif

I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm really enjoying the discussion goin on in this thread. Maybe I'll try to express my own feelings about religion later, but for now I love hearing all of these different perspectives & experiences.
crazyoldcatlady
this whole discussion just reminds me of Dogma (best. movie. evah.)



the good starts around ~ 3:50

"Do it - Do it and I'll fuckin' spank you.

mwuahhaah!

side note laugh.gif
SpRiNkLeS
Hi Konphusion! Hey girlie, how’s everything?! As you know I’m partial to another thread BUT I decided to check out this one tonight since I can’t sleep and I must say after reading back a few pages I think you have a great wisdom with your choice of words. I was raised Christian but did not ever feel a connection until I attended a Harvest Crusade with my ex last year. I had been struggling getting off of drugs and just being a young new mom, and that night just really changed my life and I finally accepted Christ as my Savior. Anyway before I ramble on I just wanted to say that your posts really moved me. Especially your Jan. 17 post, I actually shed a few tears when reading. That is EXACTLY how I feel except I am horrible with words and expressing my religion for fear of explaining it wrong. But thankyou for all your posts and keep posting them!! You make me wanna share too.

So anyway ladies, I thought maybe I could join in and give my two cents although I know it will not be popular. I find it very interesting to read what everyone here believes. I think BECAUSE my whole life I was raised to believe in our Lord God I have always been so curious why atheists don’t believe in God or any being. I’ve had quite a few Mormon friends through school so I got to understand their POV but I have truly always been curious why other people believe what they believe just as I assume they must be curious why the heck I believe the way that I do. I guess I was a bit sheltered when it came to religions because I didn't even know about other religions existing, such as Agnostic. Knowledge is very powerful and I am trying to learn more everyday. I try to be courteous whenever I discuss politics so I figure the same kinda goes here.

Minx and Girltrouble, geeesh you both must have aced English classes all through school. You both could seriously write articles for newspapers, magazines, etc. Nice writing skills!

The reason why I truly believe in God is more along the lines of what Konphusion was saying. I FEEL His presence with me and no I did not always, especially when I was being shoved His Word down my throat everyday when I was younger. Oh and my dad’s preaching…………..gosh I remember when I was a teen I would seriously cringe when I had to listen to the hour long lectures. But it really is a choice and it wasn’t until I was actually searching out for something deeper that I felt a connection. At first it was so weird, I mean those fine hairs on the back of your neck, the fine hairs on your arms……………like they would be standing up because I felt like there was more than just me at that moment. All alone in my room with just my ex smoking bowl after bowl……….I wanted more but I just couldn’t explain what I wanted. I wanted to FEEL something but I couldn’t explain it. I was so numb. Then that one night I attended the Harvest Crusade and for me it was the first night of the beginning of my life. That night I felt so damn alive and it was the most amazing feeling I have ever experienced. And now when I read God’s Word (the Bible) I feel such complete joy and this overwhelming rush of the greatest love ever. It sounds goofy but kinda like as if my heart is being squeezed but in a good way. Like a million hugs and you just wanna go to everyone you know and tell them all about it.

When I was younger I was embarrassed to admit I was a Christian because it wasn’t “cool”. Now I am ashamed that I was ever embarrassed, although I wasn’t REALLY a Christian because I wasn’t born-again yet and it wasn’t really my choice back then. I now understand that you should never be ashamed to talk about what you believe in or how you feel. If you truly feel that way, why not let someone else in? That is what makes the world go ‘round and in the process you might just help out someone more than you know. AND it is really awesome that we can all talk about this and not hate on anybody just because we all feel differently. I love discussions!
konphusion26
SPRINKLES, my friend!!!! Hey sweetie! I'm glad that you decided to pop in here. Its been an interesting discussion. Those ladies are quite the eloquent writers aren't they??? I admit some of the ladies in here have intimidated me a lil bit LOLLLL I had to break out the dictionary a few times lol but I'm glad that you have found your truth girl!! It is my prayer that someone will benefit from something I've said. I want to reach at least 1 person for God... then i'll feel like I'm fulfilling my purpose. I'll keep you in my prayers as well Sprinkles for many reasons. Stand firm!

~With love, your sister in Christ!~
pixiedust
I've been thinking about this thread a lot since joining in last week. So I guess I'll see if I can verbalize my beliefs. I grew up in chruch. First baptist, then Kenneth Hagin's church. I was really involved as a teenager. Then I got married. And we stopped going to church period. Mostly because of the amount of hypocrties, posers, and the heavily emotional dramas that were guarenteed to get you down on your knees bawling only to wake up the next moning to find nothing had changed. I've always been interested in other religions because I don't really think there is right and wrong religion and I tend to try to find the common denominators. So I have spent time talking to Mormons, Jahova'a witnesses, catholics, ect.
After my divorce a few years ago I was just kind of gliding through life without any real purpose. I was struggling with depression, having a hard time getting/keeping a job and I was so miserable I couldn't stand myself.
Then my friend kept bugging me to go to her church with her. And just being back inside a church started making me feel better. I felt loved and accepted for the first time in a long time. I am still not an every service type of christian, but I know my life runs better and I feel better when I leave a place in it for God.
My relationship with him is personal and I go to church more for direction and teaching. My pastor is great at explaining things in ways I had never considered before and things makes lot more sense to me after he discusses them.
Like konfusion andsprinkles i have had experiences where I felt God in a very real and almost physical sense.
konphusion26
QUOTE(pixiedust @ Feb 4 2008, 10:11 AM) *
I've been thinking about this thread a lot since joining in last week. So I guess I'll see if I can verbalize my beliefs. I grew up in chruch. First baptist, then Kenneth Hagin's church. I was really involved as a teenager. Then I got married. And we stopped going to church period. Mostly because of the amount of hypocrties, posers, and the heavily emotional dramas that were guarenteed to get you down on your knees bawling only to wake up the next moning to find nothing had changed. I've always been interested in other religions because I don't really think there is right and wrong religion and I tend to try to find the common denominators. So I have spent time talking to Mormons, Jahova'a witnesses, catholics, ect.
After my divorce a few years ago I was just kind of gliding through life without any real purpose. I was struggling with depression, having a hard time getting/keeping a job and I was so miserable I couldn't stand myself.
Then my friend kept bugging me to go to her church with her. And just being back inside a church started making me feel better. I felt loved and accepted for the first time in a long time. I am still not an every service type of christian, but I know my life runs better and I feel better when I leave a place in it for God.
My relationship with him is personal and I go to church more for direction and teaching. My pastor is great at explaining things in ways I had never considered before and things makes lot more sense to me after he discusses them.
Like konfusion andsprinkles i have had experiences where I felt God in a very real and almost physical sense.

I know what ya mean Pixie! I've encountered people like that and it turned me off from church. But thank God I've found a church where everyone is real! Everyone admits their struggles and flaws and we work on them together as a family. My pastor is like yours, he breaks things down for people like ME who need a lil more help understanding some things. And let me tell you, the "every service type of Christian" is a process! It definitely takes time and dedication and passion to get there every sunday and wednesday night LOL I'm getting better at it myself. So stay strong girl! You'll get there.
sexysandee
I was raised Catholic, but like many I do not go to church on a regular basis. I do go when I feel as if I want to go and I pray everyday. I have issues with confession and I have been treated poorly by many catholic school teachers... having said that.............HAVE A WONDERFUL AND BLESSED ASH WEDNESDAY TO ALL OF YOU THAT PARTICIPATE IN IT.
faerietails2
QUOTE(minx @ Jan 29 2008, 10:48 PM) *
If deconstructed, Pascal's Wager is nothing more than covering your bets...were somebody to be seriously defining the reasons why they believe, this argument would be the most hollow one available. [...]

I don't know that there are any arguments that would persuade an atheist. Faith is one of the most bizarre concepts I have ever heard of, to be completely honest. For everything else in the universe, we demand the burden of proof...Yet we rely on faulty documents put together by power-hungry Catholic men, mistranslated over several hundreds of years

Heh. I wrote a philosophy paper in undergrad saying how the Wager was full of shit.

I don't think there are any arguments that could persuade an atheist, either. I was reading The Portable Atheist by Christopher Hitchens a couple of months ago, and it's a neat little collection of atheist writings. But after a while, I put it aside, because atheists don't really need a book to support their atheism (although that's not really the purpose of The Portable Atheist; it's a great book if you want to get different perspectives on non-religious thought). There's no need for an "atheist bible;" you either believe or you don't.

In the words of Richard Dawkins, ""We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
dusty
I am astonished at how calculatedly I have been shafted at work by a church. It is seriously making me rethink my position on organized religion.

Did I already say this?
minx
How did you get shafted, Dusty (this is Metagrrrl, BTW)?
dusty
Hi Minx!

Its kind of like a factory moving to Mexico so that they can pay lower wages...
konphusion26
Hey hey busties.. this thread has been pretty quiet lately. What's up??
minx
Well, my dad told me last night that he thinks teaching evolutionary biology in public schools should be "balanced out" by teaching fucking Intelligent Design. I nearly shit myself.

I told him that Evolution was AT LEAST a scientifically based theory, whereas ID comes out of...uh...how to put this and not be incredibly offensive...a really long game of telephone? I rebutted with the fact that religious ideas of "science" have no place in secular schools. Then he said that evolution wasn't scientific at all. What gives with that shit?

How's that for a starting place? smile.gif
pollystyrene
They can teach creationism in schools when we can teach evolution in their churches.

konphusion26
Well, happy hump day LOL Ummmm That isnt a debate I'd rather not get into because we'd go around and round all day long which accomplishes nothing. I just left church so, I'll leave that alone. Yall have a great evening.
minx
I rather think there is no debate.

From Wiki:

"In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity."

A theory must be able to be tested and predict future occurrences. It must be logical. I care not to have something else based in someone's "faith" taught in my schools that are neither logical nor able to be tested to predictable ends. That would really mean the end of academia as we know it. There is a very palatable culture growing against academic intelligence in this nation which is setting us behind on the international scene. Honestly, if we were to revert back to these sorts of irreverences towards research and academia, we may as well get ready to start castigating people for claiming that the world is round and actually revolves around the sun.

I never understand people who buy into the idea of I.D. and yet enjoy the luxuries that academia and research have provided them. You like to drive cars, fly in planes, eat your GMO foods, listen to radios, use your computers, benefit from modern medicines, yet you would have people buy into an idea that isn't even loosely based in reality, logic, or science. I have a problem with this. A very HUGE problem with this. This is not to say that we will figure everything out; I think that it's marvelous how much we don't know. It's fascinating. Religion has no place in academia. Ethics yes, religion no.

The moment churches' crap ends up in my schools is the moment that every single one of them needs to be taxed, and this will also be the moment that I become an abortion technician.
beck
i don't get it. I thought the US constitution enshrined the separation of the church and state? So how can anyone make a case for creationism being taught in the public school system? (We have some state-funded faith schools here but they still have to stick to the National Curriculum, not just make stuff up).

for what it's worth, i never found believing in God (or a higher power) incompatible with evolution - evolution explains how we came to be the way we are, not who pressed the button to kick off the Big Bang. (and I always vaguely thought Genesis was more or less in the right order anyway - water, then creeping things on the land, people last of all smile.gif ). For me, having a faith means I am willing to trust in certain things without any scientific proof, not that I have to believe everything permatanned crackpots say. And also, that faith is something private, I don't expect or want to see it in classrooms or anywhere else that is paid for by tax money just like I don't want anybody else's interpretation of their faith pushed on me.

Funny, I was channel-hopping the other day and happened upon the Islam Channel, which was showing a 'documentary' about how all the variations in nature were the work of Allah. Cracks me up how much the dudes in the White House have in common with the Muslim world they so fear and despise (no offence to Muslims - who are just as diverse a bunch as Christians ie ranging from sensible to bonkers).

oh and minx, i may have said this before, but i am in love with your avatar wink.gif
beck
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

this is a good'un too
konphusion26
Jesus rocks!

That is all...
faerietails2
"I never understand people who buy into the idea of I.D. and yet enjoy the luxuries that academia and research have provided them."

WORD, minx.

beck, in high school i had two different science teachers (one bio and one chem) who were probably the best science teachers in the school and were both devout catholics and one even taught catechism. but they both briefy addressed intelligent design exactly that way...they saw it as a miracle for all the millions of variables to come together the way they did to form life/the planet, but (duh, they're science teachers) they absolutely believed in teaching science in science courses.

i had a friend in college who didn't believe in evolution. a bunch of us were having a convo about dinosaurs one day, and out of nowhere she chimed in that dinosaurs never existed and that god just put them on the planet to test our faith (or some shit like that). at first we all thought she was joking, but no...she was dead serious. we were absolutely dumbfounded. wtf?!
beck
no dinosaurs! *snigger*

i just find it weird and annoying that some Christians/churches have their priorities so wrong that they can put so much energy into pushing 'I.D.', preventing access to sex education, contraception and abortion, and promoting homophobia on the strength of what Paul said (not Jesus, who never mentioned homosexuality ever - oh, and the same Paul who said women should cover their heads and not speak in Church, which i suspect many would happily interpret as an outdated cultural position rather than core doctrine) in the Bible, while ignoring environmental issues, world poverty, western overconsumption that is wrecking the world and increasing the gap between rich and poor(televangelists raking it in seem a long way from 'give up your possessions and follow me')...that would be a much truer reflection of the overall ethos of the Bible.

ok, rant over. i will use more punctuation next time
konphusion26
Don't want this lovely thread to disappear blink.gif Yesterday I went to a lovely Joyce Meyer Christian conference with my mom and sister. It was Won-der-ful! She talked about the Christian faith SHOULD be not just a "religion" but a very close, intimate personal relationship with God through Christ. And how all of these different denominations have been formed because people take the words in the Bible and interpret it in their own way, and branch off and create their own denominations. WOW It was so honest, and in your face - kinda like sitting down and talking to a friend. Joyce Meyer is an amazing teacher preacher, and speaker, blessed and anointed by God. So many people gave their lives to Christ yesterday it was beautiful and emotional. Even my sister felt the need to ask for Jesus to come into her heart. I just pray that the Lord would give her a greater hunger to seek Him. That she would realize that she has been given grace and mercy each and every day - and that she hasn't made it this far by her own power.

Anyway, just didnt want this thread to go away. Yall take care.
crazyoldcatlady
i like to lurk, kon, but i don't have much to say on the topic. these days, i just like to sit back and see what other people are doing.
dj-bizmonkey
here's a link if y'all want to watch the documentary 'for the bible tells me so.'

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...h&plindex=1
konphusion26
All I'll say is wow @ that video.... wow- very interesting. I still have to stand with my beliefs in what the bible is, and what it says in its contexts and in its entirety from old testament to new. That is all.


Thanks for sharing DJ-Biz!!!! Very thought provoking.
dj-bizmonkey
and what exactly would those beliefs be, konphusion?

i mean, i gather from this thread that you are christian, but it's obvious from this documentary (and my personal experience) that there are a great wealth of good christian people who have no problem with homosexuality whatsoever. that to me was the most powerful and moving part of the documentary. i especially liked what mike gephart said about the value of unconditional love. i was very moved by the love that these parents, even the very religious ones, had for their children.

i'm not trying to be argumentative, i guess i'd just like you to elaborate a bit further when you say that you are standing by your beliefs about what the bible is, its contexts etc.

i had to share this documentary with my parents as well (my brother is gay). it really helped my dad, who is a very conservative episcopal, to see that his faith and religion were not mutually exclusive with loving AND accepting his son.
konphusion26
Let's see how to put this.... I am in no way saying I'm personally I have an issue with homosexuality. Let me put that out there first. I cannot judge anyone and LOVE /accept everyone the same- as I would hope they would embrace me.

I used to be a lesbian or bisexual(whatever one would label it) about 3 yrs ago DJ-Biz, and still love to look at beautiful women. I still have a Lot of lesbian and homosexual friends to this day, so I definitely accept them for who they are. Who am I to judge otherwise? I want to be accepted just like everyone else. I do believe from my studies, however, that God does not approve of that lifestyle- it clearly states in the bible that it's a sin, and God does not like it. BUT HE LOVES every person- Just not the sins they commit. That's what i've read, that's what I've been taught and that's what I believe. Thats all I meant. I feel its important to make that distinction - God loves us, He hates sin... ALL sin. No matter what, and we have ALL sinned at one point in our lives.

So, to avoid getting "preachy" - I'll end here. But if you have any more questions, I'll be more than happy to chat with ya. Smooches!
nickclick
konphusion, what do you mean by "used to be" lesbian?

it is my belief (and i hate to use that word because it connotes that i feel there is no scientific basis, kind of like the evolution discussion here) that one's sexual identity is not chosen, and that one should not rebel against theirs, but accept it. i don't believe it's a sin for the most basic idea that it's not an action that one chooses to do (or a "lifestyle choice," to put it in conservative terminology). it's a part of a person's identity as much as having brown hair or hating broccoli. murder is a sin because someone chooses to kill someone else. homosexuality is not a sin because we don't choose who we love and/or are sexually attracted to.

so by that rationale, shouldn't god love you for who you are? hair color, sexual identity, and all?
neurotic.nelly
QUOTE(konphusion26 @ Mar 18 2008, 03:31 PM) *
Let's see how to put this.... I am in no way saying I'm personally I have an issue with homosexuality. Let me put that out there first. I cannot judge anyone and LOVE /accept everyone the same- as I would hope they would embrace me.

I used to be a lesbian or bisexual(whatever one would label it). I do believe from my studies, however, that God does not approve of that lifestyle- it clearly states in the bible that it's a sin, and God does not like it. That's what i've read.

Ahhhhhh, let's begin with you used to be a lesbian or bisexual or what else you want to call it... if you still enjoy looking at and can get off on looking at (fantasizing about) beautiful women then you are STILL whatever you want to call it.

The bible does not clearly state a damn thing in my opinion, it is filled with contradictions. Those kinds of images, the hate marches etc., just terrify me bc it reminds me that a lot of people are living in the dark ages tied to beliefs that close them off to the world.

DJ - thanks for posting the link to that movie trailer. It is a really tough situation. My hope is that more people understand that oppression is oppression is oppression is oppression. It does not matter whether it is oppression from another race, or another's attitude, or an economic system - !

I wish I could be funny about this kind of stuff... whatever.
konphusion26
Oh boy here we go.... We will still agree to disagree till the end of time I guess. All i said initially was I still stand with my beliefs in what the bible says and that it was an interesting video DJ Biz posted for us. This is a whole other can of worms. And ya know what... I still got love for yall.

As I said, GOD does loves EVERYONE no matter what - but He dislikes SIN. As I also said, I USED to be a lesbian, meaning I'm not anymore. Being with a woman does not appeal to me anymore, and I certainly am not still "Whatever I want to call it". I dont "fantasize" about women, I dont get off on thinking about women - but I would be a fool and a liar to sit here and say I dont admire beauty. And people will continue to see the bible as "contradictory".. thats a personal interpretation. But for me, everything in there is God inspired and IS TRUTH. I'm not in here forcing anything on anyone. Every person has the freedom to believe or reject whatever is written there. Its all about free will.

Nick, I must totally agree with you on the fact that we cant help who we love or fall in love with. Falling in love is not a sin. We are human, and we have hearts and a desire to love & be loved. A man having sex with another man or a woman with a woman is a choice though. We can't put that one on God -babies are not born with the ability to identify with Gay or straight that is a choice that is made later on in life. Based everything I've ever been taught about God, I just don't believe that lifestyle is something God approves of Even when I was in it! I dont think He intended for us to be that way. For me, if the Word says its sin, TO ME it is sin... and I'm not just talking about homosexuality- I'm talking a variety of sins. God doesnt like sin period. But I know that God still loves everyone regardless. If He didnt, we'd all be wiped out by now. Thats where His MERCY and GRACE comes in. I mean we could go back and forth all day long on this. Whether its biblical/scripturally based, or scientifically proven/disproven -it doesnt matter. I believe what I believe, yall believe what you believe. I don't have the authority to condemn or judge anyone. Hell I'm very open minded, but I choose to live by my faith. Period.


beck
not had time to look at the video from bizmonkey but i'm bi and catholic (i know, the church as an institution is not a good place for gay people, but i'm more inclined to be inside and hope for change than reject the institution and the people there, but that's another discussion).

Just have to say a few things though:

- i knew my orientation from an early age (and would've come to terms with it a lot sooner had it not been for the corrosive evangelical environment i was raised in during my childhood and teenage years). It might be a choice to have sex but it is not a choice whether to be straight or gay.
- true, having sex is a choice, but the expectation on gay or bi people to be celibate while straight people are allowed to get off to their hearts' content seems a lot to ask.
- a lot of people (and kon i don't mean you here - i know from your posts that this is not your story) seem to project their personal dislike/disgust about the idea of gay sex as evidence that it's wrong. But there are lots of people I would be disgusted if I thought about them having sex - that doesn't mean those people are doing something wrong, it's just not something i need to dwell on. (not to mention the fact that there isn't much about 'gay sex' that straight people don't get up to as well).
- kon, i do think it's relevant that you say 'everything I've ever been taught about God'. On looking at the bibilical texts, there is very little reference to being gay. Jesus does not condemn it. The references in the New Testament are from Paul, who also held the view that women should cover their heads and not speak up in church. And yet, many churches have women in positions of pastoral responsibility, and few practice head-covering. I believe he also said that it was wrong for men to have long hair. If we can accept some of his other pronouncements as part of the cultural context of the age, why is homosexuality such a sticking point?
- The fact is, many of the people who 'teach us about God' are driven by custom, culture and prejudice as much as biblical knowledge. If you believe the bible is truth, cool, but do you also believe the word of those people who work in the church is the absolute truth, or would you accept that as humans, they may be fallible? i would strive to learn more of it without the intermediary of a religious leader/other peoples' theory of the bible.
- If you're looking at the Old Testament, there are many other laws which nobody follows or believes today, for example, the fact that a menstruating woman was so unclean she had to be isolated for a week and be purified before she could join others. Again, we seem pretty good at sifting the relevant from the not-so relevant in most of the Bible - we recognise that it is not a sin to wear clothes of mixed fibres, we don't stone adulters etc. I would argue that people are prevented, by their own prejudices against homosexuality, from applying the same common-sense test here
- finally, if it was that important, mightn't it have been in the Ten Commandments? I would argue that those should be the centrepoint of Christian practice, yet people break them every day with impunity. Do not covet? Who in the Western world can truthfully say that they have never been greedy for more than they truly needed?

dj-bizmonkey
agree to disagree, indeed. i do respect the way in which you are able to discuss this issue, konphusion, and i wasn't trying to open up a can of worms. however, i am disheartened by most of what you say. i have two main problems with this line of thinking.

first of all, in the greater scientific and medical community it has been accepted, dare i say proven, that homosexuality is not a choice. it is not a lifestyle, as you put it, but the way you are born. that is why it was removed from the DSM in the 1970's. i believe you DO have a choice about whether or not you have sex at all. you can choose to be celibate or chaste until you are married or in a committed relationship, but a person has zero control over who they are attracted to. i'll buy that your god considers sexual promiscuity a sin, but one specific form of sexuality or another, that i have hard time reconciling. denial and self-delusion are powerful tools, however are dangerous and destructive in the end. which brings me to my second problem. while you may be accepting, loving, non-judgmental etc, there is a large proportion of people that believe the same things that you do, but take it one step further, towards violence. violence perpertrated against innocent people, people who are beaten to death or near death, raped, mutilated and humiliated all because of who they are attracted to, who they fall in love with. it is yet another form of genocide. not only that, but also the violence that homosexuals do to themselves through suicide, drug abuse, self-mutilation, you name it. they suffer from shame, alienation, self-hatred which does NOT come from god, but comes from human beings in their lives who don't understand or are unwilling to try. while you may be an exemplary christian and accept and love all people, i'd say there is an outspoken and aggressive portion of people who simply do not. why would god create a person, give them inborn desires and then no acceptable (i.e. sex is acceptable within the confines of marriage) outlet for them? that makes very little sense to me.

yes, agree to disagree. i know that people in your position have very steadfast views, as i do myself, so perhaps we should let this one go before it snowballs. i am curious as to why someone with such seemingly conservative views would be drawn to BUST in the first place. i'm NOT saying that you don't belong here or aren't welcome, because in my mind, you certainly are. i just wonder what attracted you to a liberal, feminist forum.
konphusion26
QUOTE(dj-bizmonkey @ Mar 19 2008, 03:10 PM) *
yes, agree to disagree. i know that people in your position have very steadfast views, as i do myself, so perhaps we should let this one go before it snowballs. i am curious as to why someone with such seemingly conservative views would be drawn to BUST in the first place. i'm NOT saying that you don't belong here or aren't welcome, because in my mind, you certainly are. i just wonder what attracted you to a liberal, feminist forum.


I would have to definitely go with you on letting it go LOL I just thought this thread was open for discussion - and I like to share my faith as you see, but I guess that didnt go over well here. tongue.gif I didnt know.

I joined the Bust forum initially to talk about some health issues and I stayed in the Our Bodies Our Hells thread forever. Till i started seeing other threads that interested me. I didnt mean to cause a ruckus LOL Or to intrude or impose. Shoot you gals have been most enjoyable to talk to about our common issues and everything. I feel very at home on Bust.

DJ Biz I love ya darlin! but i'm not sure everyone shares your sentiment of me being welcome in here LOL Oh well, such is life. I guess I will not post anything else in the religion thread.. to sensitive of a subject it seems.

ANYWAY LOVE YALL!
dj-bizmonkey
konphusion, even though i don't agree with you on many issues, i would be a giant hypocrite if i was completely closed-minded and unwilling to hear you out. things can get really heated in here at times, and i didn't want us talking ourselves in cirlces. i hope that you continue to enjoy yourself here and that it is an enlightening experience.

ETA: if you want to talk evolution vs. creationsim vs. intelligent design, then bring it on because this biological anthropolgist has no shortage of opinions!
Speaking of which, here is a BBC Horizon (like the UK's version of NOVA) about intelligent design and its legal battles in the USA. although it has a more evolutionary slant, i think they give the proponents of intelligent design a chance to explain their theories. it also features the ever controversial Richard Dawkins and the not so controversial, David Attenborough, who is my hero!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=36...h&plindex=6

i wish i could figure out how to make the link hidden underneath a word like other people do.....
zoya
**de-lurks**

I lurk in this thread a lot - I find the whole discussion fascinating, especially with my catholic upbringing, theological education, subsequent fucking off of the whole thing, and now having my own beliefs & ideas (which I'm not going to go into, because that's not my point)

anyway - I'm realize I'm doing a slight derail, but I just figured I'd post in here, just so it stays self contained.

so - I just want to say that I have quite a bit of respect for the way that Konphusion has tried to be open minded and even about certain discussions. Of course things get heated on all sides... there's a reason for the old adage "never discuss politics, sex, or religion" (ALL, of course, of which we discuss here!! biggrin.gif ) because those are topics that pretty much everyone is going to have a passionately different belief on - hell, those things start wars... but having been here for almost 10 years. (yes!) I've seen lots of people come and go, and I think that she has handled herself pretty admirably compared to most who have a more conservative religious outlook than the majority here. From what I've seen in the lounge as a whole, she's admitted when she's been a little over the top or closed minded and attempted to learn. (just as many others of us here do)

In the case of religious beliefs, I'm not saying I agree with her, or that anyone has to - but I don't see why having a bit more of a 'conservative' outlook on religion makes a difference in anyone being here or not. I mean, just because Konphusion's take on the bible may be way different than mine, doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy getting herself off (yeah, I read the sex threads...!!) or having other things in common with the women here. Shit, there are GUYS who post here who have been treated with skepticism (I have been one of the skeptics) at first, and then have been accepted into this community. That's something that I've always loved about this forum - that many people here have different beliefs about things like this, and yet we are all (or try to be) openminded, supportive, and have some common grounds in less 'heated' areas. In all the years I've been here, I've seen people learn a lot about others and themselves, and become more open minded (whatever that means for them), and the ones that don't care to seem to just drift away.

anyway, bizmonkey - this post was sort of prompted by what you wrote earlier - but not directed at you - your response is truly open minded and I applaud you for also keeping a discussion / debate to exactly that - not a fight, as seems to sometimes happen. I think that really embodies what the lounge is to me, at it's best moments.

I may get flamed for this post, but I just felt I had to share.

**ok, derailment over, back to your regularly scheduled thread. in the interest of not derailing thread further, if anyone wants to respond, how 'bout we do it in the "take it outside" thread in 'Ladies Who Lounge'? **
dj-bizmonkey
well i hope nobody flames you for THAT zoya, your post is well-written, to the point and spot on. i certainly wasn't hurt by it. i think you bring up a good point. it's very easy for me to get wrapped up in my own leftist bubble, if you will. that's why (kind of keeping to the topic at hand) i get so frustrated by atheists (and i myself am one), for example, who think that badgering and denigrating evangelicals will somehow get their point across better. unfortunately, ultra-liberal, intellectul academics like to look down upon people of faith. they don't give credit to those (and konphusion is one...) religious people who are open, loving, and presumably intelligent enough to make their own desicions about their lives. i think religion gets a bad rap because of people like the phelps family or islamic extremists. it's easy to assume (from an intellectual/academic standpoint) that religious people are just bumpkins who don't know any better and that they don't matter. i'd say that they matter quite a bit (case in point, the 2006 election). that's why, as much as i love Richard Dawkins, i cringe at times when he spars with religious leaders. i don't know if it's because he actually IS really arrogant or because he sounds that way because of his british accent, but it's obvious that these people so infuriate him, he can't treat them as equals. well, to quote another old adage, 'you can win more flies with honey than with vinegar.' i think if you are hoping to open someone up to your ideas, it's best to treat them in a fair and respectful manner. if you aren't willing to listen to them attentively, respectfully and patiently, when why bother having a discussion at all. we certainly don't appreciate it when trolls assault us with bible verses, figuratively yelling in our faces. which is basically the same thing that richard dawkins does at times. i think he's a brilliant scientist, an eloquent speaker, but he is as polarizing as rush limbaugh or anne coulter.

anyhow, i agree, i'm glad that BUST is a progressive place where people of all backgrounds and belief systems can share their viewpoints. i don't think this necessitates a trip to "take it outside", anyone else?

but continuing with the debate. one of my favorite david attenborough quotes (geez, i heart him!) regarding creationism:

"My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy".

read, think about, discuss.......
crazyoldcatlady
*also delurking*

this thread is on fire, good reads. thoughts:

-my question is, how do devout feminists reconcile their faith with a decidedly patriarchal church? how does anyone who doesn't swallow religion part-and-parcel reconcile what they feel to be true when it conflicts with what his/her religion says is the Truth?

basically, how does one "not throw out the baby with the bathwater"?

-i liked your thoughts on it, beck. about accepting the good and staying in the fold to initate change from within.

for me, catholicism had too many things that conflicted, and that church is such a Machine, such an Institution, that initiating any change seems hopeless in the face of such stubborness. (is there a word strong than stubborn for that?) i mean, girls couldn't even serve like alterboys until a few years back. because it apparently takes a penis to light some candles? i mean, if they won't let females do that forever, they'll sure as hell never change their position on anything else that i find appalling in my lifetime. i don't have the time to deal with that bullshit when i'd rather put my energy toward things that will make an immediate difference.

/rant
nickclick
konphusion, i hope you stay. this is a forum for discussion so it's okay to disagree. it's only no good when someone attacks and i don't think that's happened, nor do i hope it does. besides, i admire you for coming in and being open.

like beck, i have a hard time being open to something because 'the bible says so' or that's the 'word from god.' the bible is so vaguely written (and translated) and has been historically interpreted in a million ways. so it's logical to think that any reader would interpret it based on their prejudices, or follow a church that has interpreted it to fit their needs in some part of history. such as, like cocl brings up, catholicism's tight grip on patriarchy. if the pope suddenly says, it's okay for women to become priests, they'll have to re-interpret that part of the bible that says women are only good as baby-making machines. if they admit they were mistaken, their worst fear will happen... their believers will start to question everything.
zoya
**de-lurks, just one more quick time**

OMG, I soooo wish altargrrl was still posting here. Does anyone remember her? She was attending seminary school, and yet was also one of the most committed feminists I've met. She was so eloquent about her personal views on / reasons for reconciling her faith with her feminism. Of course, she stopped posting before the lounge got eaten when the server change happened, so none of her really insightful posts exist anymore..

ok, that's all. just sayin.


**re-lurks and goes back to the work she should be doing instead of busting**
roseviolet
Just wanted to say that I freakin' loooooooove David Attenborough. Thanks for posting one of my favorite quotes from him, DJ. smile.gif
neurotic.nelly
Hello All,
I wrote my earlier post at like 5AM, ahhhh, I had just woken up and wrote whateva came to my mind, without editing. rolleyes.gif Hey, if it came off as bitchy, that's cause it kinda waz.

I am not christian, and from an outsider's perspective, the bible is contradictory and hate-filled. I mean really, the shit I know about the bible does not come from my having read it or from being in bible study, it comes directly from the mass media and word of mouth from friends that are christian. Again, it comes off as contradictory myths. Even the prayers are strange to me, they kinda creep me out.

OH! The myth that homsexuality is somehow unnatural, take a look at this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE
The animal kingdom is hella gay! wink.gif

I was raised without religion being forced upon me. I didn't have to go to church. My mom waz raised in the church and baptized and for her that waz that. She still believes in the bible, but only when she is scared about something like earthquakes. When there's an earthquake she breaks out the bible, never fails. But thankfully, none of that was pushed on me. And b/c of that, I loved going to church with my grandmother or my friends and their families. I went when I wanted and for me, it was always kinda fun. I remember one time being in a bible study when I wuz about 10 and the sunday school teacher asked us all if we thought we were going to hell? They all answered yes to that question of hell. Me? I said that I'M GOD BITCHES. Nah, I just said no. I knew that I wasn't going to hell. Then I went home and made out with my best girlfriend.

I do not agree with creationism or evolutionist. DARWIN wuz wrong, survival of the fittest is an imposed idea just like creationism. Darwinism is still, a THEORY, based on the assumption or "observation" that nature selects those members of a species best adapted to the environment in which they find themselves. It speaks nothing of CONSCIOUSNESS! What role does consciousness play in our lives, in evolution, and in our collective reality? Quantum mechanics says that the world around us is actually a hologram, everything is made up of the same subatomic and atomic particles, and everything is vibrating at a different levels, which leads to us perceiving things in this reality as either hard or soft and the various textures that we experience in the world. And when quantum mechanic scientist view these particles and/or waves they affect the outcome simply by observing them... Our collective consciousness affects our collective reality... the link below goes into more details... about this new kind of PUNK SCIENCE
http://www.consciousmedianetwork.com/members/mlaughton.htm

Kon, you are obviously valued and wanted in this thread... ultimately, it's up to you... sometimes it just isn't worth it... sometimes it is...
My boyfriend's family is very religious (christian), from the south, and when I visit with them (I'd be the only person of color in that town), I pray with them, and we chat, and they listen to me, I listen to them, and in the end everyone feels validated and respected. AND THEN I GO HOME! Cause it'd be a whole different story if I had to live with em' day in and out. And even though they voted for G. Bush, and are conservative, we have more in common than someone from a very leftist and very upper middle class background. I can talk to them a whole lot easier.


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