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girltrouble
2x post.
Mr Pugs
Statistics are a funny thing. We've all heard the statistic that you're more likely to get in a car accident within 10 miles of your home. Interesting. Most of us only drive within 10 miles of our home. Those who don't, home is the main place you go to. You leave home, go to work. Go home. Go to the store. Go home. You're near your home more than anywhere else. That's the reason behind the number of accidents in the statistic. I wasn't saying that the statistics you gave were skewed, but there are unlimited variables affecting the outcome. Are the interest rates higher on loans to blacks because they have a higher default rate? If it's true, why do they have a higher default rate? Do they work in a manufacturing plant that has frequent lay-offs? I don't know. Maybe the bank sees the higher failure rate for black business and therefore requires more collateral. It can be a vicious cycle. But it can be broken.

My great grandparents immigrated to this country during a big influx of Italians. There was racial hostility towards them as well. It still persists today. If I say I'm Italian, most people think pizza, the Godfather, the Sopranos, John Gotti...Etc. I belong to a race that is prejudiced against for organized crime. I personally think that the race hostility has shifted from the blacks to the Middle-Easterners and the Latinos/Mexicans. Is it right? No. But to say it's only the whites who are oppressing the blacks or anybody else is wrong. My step-aunt (who's black) was talking about her flight to Florida the other day and how an "arab" got on the plane and she said she kept an eye on that bastard in case he was going to hijack the plane....

Another point with the prejudices towards Asians, how did they get that prejudice? It is a stereotype. Not all Asians are smart, but they are percieved that way. Stereotypes come from percieved statistics. I believe it was Jamie Foxx who did a standup bit about white people. Whenever he talked as the white person, he was either a nerdy sounding guy, or a redneck. When I say Serial Killer, what race do you think of? What about the black stereotype for whites? The oppressor/slave owner, the one who made my life suck. My black friends explained the slur "cracker" is that it is short for whip-cracker. So when I get called a cracker, it implies that I oppressed a people, and have owned slaves. But that slur doesn't hurt because it's aimed at a white man.
girltrouble
this is going to be my last post on this topic for a while. i wish it wasn't but i can't seem to shut up. i think in tangents and when try i explain things in my head, i end up going all over. consequently researching and writing one of these posts takes me hours. i start a new job tomorrow and i have to get so much done before that so... this is it. i have to say, to all the busties i really appreciate your part in the conversation. much of this has been floating around in my head-- i tend to hear, read and find stats and information and i have no place to focus it. thank you for challenging me, you rock. the last conversation i remember enjoying so much, was when we were talking about guns and busties were defending the right to bear arms. my apologies for hogging the thread. a special thank you mr. pugs for asking some brave questions. you have my admiration.
-gt

****************

when i was in junior high i came across one of my mom's books, it was called lying with statistics, it was so interesting to me, it showed how if one had enough of an agenda you could skew almost any statistics, the main way of doing it was to narrow the results, say by date or duration to get the result you wanted. but you could tell that the statistics were manipulated, they were often rather truncated. but before you even look at that, agenda-- the name and reputation of the people doing the study, and their reasons for doing the study are often early indicators. i tend to trust university studies, since most of the leg work is done by teachers assistants and graduate students working on their thesis. more often than not, they are more prone to throw out stats that contradict their point, rather than "massage" them.

think tanks on the other hand often start with a certain dogma, and build their case around it, manipulating facts as they go.

**************
you seem to think that there is some other reason behind the loans than race. and i think most people might be inclined to give them the benefit of a doubt, but as i said:

we have two people heading to your average bank, these two people have exactly the same credit history.
the only thing that is different is the color of their skin.
if it is a business, house or personal loan, the black person will be required to have more collateral. their loan rate will be higher-- they will have to pay more for the same amount.

if they those same people are selling their house-- if they so much as display a photo with blacks in it, their house will be appraised as worth less.

i think, however you bring up some good points, many banks would say that they give blacks a higher rate because their default rate is higher. which is valid, but you have to ask the converse side of that, which is are blacks defaulting at a higher rate because they are being made to pay more for the same money. it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophesy. which came first, the chicken or the egg? i can't tell you, but when you look at the stats for all of the ARMs going belly up, many of them are black families who were given rates that were higher than even whites with the same kind of loans. there have already been charges of race targeting.

*******
when talking about racial perceptions, i think we are on the same page-- when i say that asians, say get a benefit from how they are viewed, i am in no way saying that every single one of them is smart-- but all the same they do get the benefit of the doubt, we tend to think that they are until proven otherwise. and of course it's opposite is true, when talking about blacks or latinos, we tend to buy into the stereotypes, until proven otherwise.

these preconceptions-- a lot of it is in our sort of cultural milk-- those stories we tell each other, in our writing, television, songs and conversation.

another damned definition:

archetype:
1. An original model or type after which other similar things are patterned; a prototype: "'Frankenstein' . . . 'Dracula' . . . 'Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde' . . . the archetypes that have influenced all subsequent horror stories" (New York Times).
2. An ideal example of a type; quintessence: an archetype of the successful entrepreneur.
3. In Jungian psychology, an inherited pattern of thought or symbolic imagery derived from the past collective experience and present in the individual unconscious.
(am. heritage dict.)

i like all three of these definitions, the first because it makes all of the concepts of the third definiton clear and obvious. (ok, it's that and i am a huge fan of jungian and freudian psychology in reading film symbols). if you are familiar with the power of myth by joseph campbell (or the tv series w/ bill moyers)then you know the basics. we talk to each other in kind of a language of common dreams. think of it like pop culture. let's take a show like southpark, a show that i rarely watch, but if i mimic one of the show's charecters, and say "respect my auth-or-it-tie!" most people have a picture in their head:

it is a way of short hand, the same as stereotypes. they call to mind a specific image. these images are, these ideas, these archetypes are created by repetition. lets go back to that character pretending to be a cop, cartman (i think that's his name) resembles a fascistic prison guard iin the film cool hand luke. that's how it works. we see things from several different places, many times, which confirms our assumptions. ta-da we have a prejudice!

so when we see these symbols we already know what they mean, no thinking required. prejudice is the same thing-- a person's race-- their skin and features become short hand for our fears.
anna k
QUOTE
I believe it was Jamie Foxx who did a standup bit about white people. Whenever he talked as the white person, he was either a nerdy sounding guy, or a redneck


It was probably D.L. Hughley. I can't stand the nerdy white guy voice he does.
Mr Pugs
Back at ya GT! It's a shame that LMP has a hard time un-attaching her feelings from a discussion. When she's upset about something, it shows in her posts (and PMs). It is definately a sore and uncomfortable subject. I'm just happy that we can all discuss and disagree without resorting to namecalling.

QUOTE
we have two people heading to your average bank, these two people have exactly the same credit history.
the only thing that is different is the color of their skin.
if it is a business, house or personal loan, the black person will be required to have more collateral. their loan rate will be higher-- they will have to pay more for the same amount.

if they those same people are selling their house-- if they so much as display a photo with blacks in it, their house will be appraised as worth less.


Granted that this does happen, but I do take issue with the will part of your statement. It implies that happens 100% of the time, that it is all encompassing. I took out a personal loan to help us pay down our debt. I did it online. It didn't ask me my race. I never saw a person to get the money...I put in my social, set up the payment amount and date and in a week my check came in the mail.

QUOTE
these preconceptions-- a lot of it is in our sort of cultural milk-- those stories we tell each other, in our writing, television, songs and conversation.


Yes, but whites aren't the only ones who do this. While you do admit that everybody is prejudiced, in my personal experience, you are the exception with your race.
girlbomb
Statistically speaking, there's a 99.9 percent chance that every time people start talking about white privilege, a white person will start clamoring about how it doesn't exist.
girltrouble
girl bomb! i need to go to work and i promised i wouldn't post i'd just read, but !!!!

i hearts me some girlbomb! longtime no see, chickie!!!!<3<4<5...<99<100!
kittenb
QUOTE
It's a shame that LMP has a hard time un-attaching her feelings from a discussion.


I know that I can't unattach my feelings from this conversation, it is too important.

I don't really have anything to add at the moment but I have been impressed with what I have seen over the past few days. So thanks everyone for participating. I'll be back as soon as I have something useful to the conversation. smile.gif
anarch
QUOTE(Mr Pugs @ Mar 25 2008, 03:31 PM) *
But to say it's only the whites who are oppressing the blacks or anybody else is wrong.
My black friends explained the slur "cracker" is that it is short for whip-cracker. So when I get called a cracker, it implies that I oppressed a people, and have owned slaves. But that slur doesn't hurt because it's aimed at a white man.


Did somebody in this conversation say that it's only whites who oppress blacks? I didn't mean to give that impression. Certainly everybody of whatever colour has prejudices. What I've tried to say is, there are two levels we're discussing. One is institutional and governmental, the other is indvidual and personal. Institutional and governmental policies, which have been put into place by, mostly, wealthy white guys, do often stack the deck against blacks.
eg, recent mortgage studies: "More recently, the Center for Responsible Lending found that borrowers living in predominately African American neighborhoods are more likely than other borrowers to receive loans that contain a prepayment penalty, an expensive fee charged for paying off the loan before its due date. *This study controlled for other key variables, such as creditworthiness, that might affect whether a lender imposes a penalty.* It leads to one unmistakable conclusion: borrowers from white neighborhoods have the best chance of getting a mortgage without a prepayment penalty."
http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/summer05/predator.html
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:QG8Hf...;cd=9&gl=us
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/1...ournalCode=soin

At the individual and personal level, I've tried to say that thre are ways that IME many (certainly not all, maybe not even most, but a majority, yes) whites are able to move through mainstream N. American society in ways that I as a person of colour have never been able to. eg, "Another source of the discomfort and anger that Whites often experience [when first being told that they've got white privilege] stems from the frustration of being seen as a group member, rather than as an individual. People of color learn early in life that they are seen by others as members of a group. For Whites, thinking of oneself only as an individual is a legacy of White privilege." (this is from that book "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together...?")

Of course, you're absolutely right about Italians having experienced prejudice. Seems to me that, as far as this example of "But I'm an individual, not a group member" thing goes, Blacks would be at one end of a continuum (being judged as a skin-colour group member all the time), Anglo-Saxon/Nordic-background types would be at the other end (being judged as a group member rarely), and Italian, these days, might be in the middle but closer to Anglo-Saxon than Black. 100 years ago, of course, they'd have been much much closer to the Black end.

Another thought - it's not clear to me why pointing out that systemic structures favouring white people exist, and that many white people unconsciously behave in ways that blind them to learning about existing racism and, on an individual level, even continue to reinscribe damaging stereotypes on POC - why does pointing out these things and saying they need to be
addressed, equate to "absolving" Blacks of personal responsiblity?

Because that's not why I point them out. I point them out so that they can be acknowledged and addressed. Along with the calls for Black people to fix their own internal problems (Bill Cosby, eg) - which as far as I can tell, there's no shortage of. (I suppose you'd disagree on that.) These systemic + individual whiteness blinkers, though - they're not even being acknowledged, most of the time.
anarch
sorry for 2x.

I forgot I meant to address your last point about "doesn't hurt because aimed at white man". I didn't intend to mean that slurs against whites don't hurt. I meant that they hurt, but they're loaded differently. The N-word (or "Chink" for myself), etc, invokes contempt by superiors towards inferiors (inferiors as determined by science and law, decades of thinking from influential people). "Cracker" invokes contempt, but from a position of inferiority. Of course, they both hurt, and are unjust and should be called out.
culturehandy
*delurks*

There are a few thoughts I would like you all to consider here.

I fully believe that white privilage does exhist. With that said, this is, obviously, something which occurs in an anglo-saxon dominated society. If any white person were to go to, Japan, for example, white privilage would not exist.

In reading what Mr. Pugs was reading, the way I interpreted his comments on Black history month was not that this was any sort of black privilage, but why, for the other 11 months of the year, is Black history being ignored? it's the same with all other history (aside from the white, European history that is). While I whole heartedly agree that the history of every culture and society needs to be studied and examined so it is not forgotten, it shouldn't be highlighted for only 1 month of the year. People need to celebrate multiculturalism. This is, of coruse, easier said than done, because racism still exists, on every level whether one likes it or not.

In Canada, I would say that the situation of the systematic and governmental racism of minorities, and low income people is comparible to that of the first Nations people in Canada. Those who the government, people and masses are "afraid" of, those who are more often convicted of crime, those who live in poverty, use and abuse substance, etc are the First Nations populations (and using slavery as the big issue in American History, here is was similar to the aboriginal population, Canada also had the nasty issue of residential schools, but this is OT). This is, of course, not restricred to the first nations population, all social issues happen to every cultural group, but the media would like to portray otherwise, which certiainly reaffirms the stereotype.

I found this online in my attempts to find another documentary. It's a comment. Interesting.

I found the documentary which was aired on The CBC's The Passionate Eye here is the a write up about the documentary. Anyways, I'm sure you have all heard of Jane Elliott and her blue eyes/brown eyes experiment she did with children. Well, she also did work called Indecently Exposed, where she took adults into a workshop and did the same thing. The documentary, which I can't seem to locate for free anywhere, was horrific and reaffirms what GT said about everyone being racist.

Anyways, there is so much i'd like to add, but I'm feeling rather convoluted, and my eyes are starting to cross from reading to much.

I would like to add that I work for social assistance, and the big question I always alwyas get is, "so, are there a lot of indians on social assistance?" People mean this in terms of the first nations population. I of course, always the smart ass, say you think there are a lot of people from India on social assistance? This of course outs the person and gets them to admit their racism or they walk away without finishing the conversation. Makes them uncomfortable when they are called on it. And funny enough, the people who have threatened my like. White people. many of the white people on social assistance are the biggest, meanest, rudest bastards. Again, because they think they are privilaged.

*relurks*
Mr Pugs
I'd like to take a moment and thank everyone for their candor and honesty. Due to some self reflection and a personal revelation, I will not participate in these types of discussions anymore. I don't even know if I will check this thread, so you anyone wants to talk, pm me.

Thanks again,
Mr. Pugs
neurotic.nelly
I was thinking the other day about The Willie Lynch speech and letter called, "How To Make A Slave". In the letter he speaks about how to break the spirit of a people for generations, how to control people, and how to divide and conquer people. In one of Mos Def's songs he spouted, "How to Make a Slave by Willie Lynch" is still applying. So true. How might these practices still be going on today hundreds of years later, not just on blacks, but on everyone - divide and conquer - point out differences and capitalize on them. I dunno, just a thought.

But, I think that a major part white privilege rests upon the fact that as a whole group, historically, whites have not had to deal with psychological, and physical terror that Willie Lynch brought to the minds, hearts, and spirits of black and african peoples of the world. So, blacks still have to deal with something akin to historic PTSD passed along from generation to generation since slavery. This kind of brutality does not disappear after one generation.
Part of being white and having white privilege means that whites (and their ancestors) do not have to deal with the ramifications of pyschological and physical and systemic terror brought about by Willie Lynch.

************************************

This speech was delivered by Willie Lynch on the bank of the James River in the colony of Virginia in 1712. Lynch was a British slave owner in the West Indies. He was invited to the colony of Virginia in 1712 to teach his methods to slave owners there. The term “lynching” is derived from his last name.

[beginning of the Willie Lynch Letter]

Greetings,

Gentlemen. I greet you here on the bank of the James River in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and twelve. First, I shall thank you, the gentlemen of the Colony of Virginia, for bringing me here. I am here to help you solve some of your problems with slaves. Your invitation reached me on my modest plantation in the West Indies, where I have experimented with some of the newest, and still the oldest, methods for control of slaves. Ancient Rome would envy us if my program is implemented. As our boat sailed south on the James River, named for our illustrious King, whose version of the Bible we cherish, I saw enough to know that your problem is not unique. While Rome used cords of wood as crosses for standing human bodies along its highways in great numbers, you are here using the tree and the rope on occasions. I caught the whiff of a dead slave hanging from a tree, a couple miles back. You are not only losing valuable stock by hangings, you are having uprisings, slaves are running away, your crops are sometimes left in the fields too long for maximum profit, you suffer occasional fires, your animals are killed. Gentlemen, you know what your problems are; I do not need to elaborate. I am not here to enumerate your problems, I am here to introduce you to a method of solving them. In my bag here, I HAVE A FULL PROOF METHOD FOR CONTROLLING YOUR BLACK SLAVES. I guarantee every one of you that, if installed correctly, IT WILL CONTROL THE SLAVES FOR AT LEAST 300 HUNDREDS YEARS. My method is simple. Any member of your family or your overseer can use it. I HAVE OUTLINED A NUMBER OF DIFFERENCES AMONG THE SLAVES; AND I TAKE THESE DIFFERENCES AND MAKE THEM BIGGER. I USE FEAR, DISTRUST AND ENVY FOR CONTROL PURPOSES. These methods have worked on my modest plantation in the West Indies and it will work throughout the South. Take this simple little list of differences and think about them. On top of my list is “AGE,” but it’s there only because it starts with an “a.” The second is “COLOR” or shade. There is INTELLIGENCE, SIZE, SEX, SIZES OF PLANTATIONS, STATUS on plantations, ATTITUDE of owners, whether the slaves live in the valley, on a hill, East, West, North, South, have fine hair, course hair, or is tall or short. Now that you have a list of differences, I shall give you an outline of action, but before that, I shall assure you that DISTRUST IS STRONGER THAN TRUST AND ENVY STRONGER THAN ADULATION, RESPECT OR ADMIRATION. The Black slaves after receiving this indoctrination shall carry on and will become self-refueling and self-generating for HUNDREDS of years, maybe THOUSANDS. Don’t forget, you must pitch the OLD black male vs. the YOUNG black male, and the YOUNG black male against the OLD black male. You must use the DARK skin slaves vs. the LIGHT skin slaves, and the LIGHT skin slaves vs. the DARK skin slaves. You must use the FEMALE vs. the MALE, and the MALE vs. the FEMALE. You must also have white servants and overseers [who] distrust all Blacks. But it is NECESSARY THAT YOUR SLAVES TRUST AND DEPEND ON US. THEY MUST LOVE, RESPECT AND TRUST ONLY US. Gentlemen, these kits are your keys to control. Use them. Have your wives and children use them, never miss an opportunity. IF USED INTENSELY FOR ONE YEAR, THE SLAVES THEMSELVES WILL REMAIN PERPETUALLY DISTRUSTFUL. Thank you gentlemen.”

LET’S MAKE A SLAVE

It was the interest and business of slave holders to study human nature, and the slave nature in particular, with a view to practical results. I and many of them attained astonishing proficiency in this direction. They had to deal not with earth, wood and stone, but with men and, by every regard, they had for their own safety and prosperity they needed to know the material on which they were to work, conscious of the injustice and wrong they were every hour perpetuating and knowing what they themselves would do. Were they the victims of such wrongs? They were constantly looking for the first signs of the dreaded retribution. They watched therefore with skilled and practiced eyes, and learned to read with great accuracy, the state of mind and heart of the slave, through his sable face. Unusual sobriety, apparent abstractions, sullenness and indifference indeed, any mood out of the common was afforded ground for suspicion and inquiry. Frederick Douglas LET’S MAKE A SLAVE is a study of the scientific process of man-breaking and slave-making. It describes the rationale and results of the Anglo Saxons’ ideas and methods of insuring the master/slave relationship. LET’S MAKE A SLAVE “The Original and Development of a Social Being Called ‘The Negro.’” Let us make a slave. What do we need? First of all, we need a black nigger man, a pregnant nigger woman and her baby nigger boy. Second, we will use the same basic principle that we use in breaking a horse, combined with some more sustaining factors. What we do with horses is that we break them from one form of life to another; that is, we reduce them from their natural state in nature. Whereas nature provides them with the natural capacity to take care of their offspring, we break that natural string of independence from them and thereby create a dependency status, so that we may be able to get from them useful production for our business and pleasure.

CARDINAL PRINCIPLES FOR MAKING A NEGRO

For fear that our future generations may not understand the principles of breaking both of the beast together, the nigger and the horse. We understand that short range planning economics results in periodic economic chaos; so that to avoid turmoil in the economy, it requires us to have breadth and depth in long range comprehensive planning, articulating both skill sharp perceptions. We lay down the following principles for long range comprehensive economic planning. Both horse and niggers [are] no good to the economy in the wild or natural state. Both must be BROKEN and TIED together for orderly production. For orderly future, special and particular attention must be paid to the FEMALE and the YOUNGEST offspring. Both must be CROSSBRED to produce a variety and division of labor. Both must be taught to respond to a peculiar new LANGUAGE. Psychological and physical instruction of CONTAINMENT must be created for both. We hold the six cardinal principles as truth to be self-evident, based upon following the discourse concerning the economics of breaking and tying the horse and the nigger together, all inclusive of the six principles laid down above. NOTE: Neither principle alone will suffice for good economics. All principles must be employed for orderly good of the nation. Accordingly, both a wild horse and a wild or natur[al] nigger is dangerous even if captured, for they will have the tendency to seek their customary freedom and, in doing so, might kill you in your sleep. You cannot rest. They sleep while you are awake, and are awake while you are asleep. They are DANGEROUS near the family house and it requires too much labor to watch them away from the house. Above all, you cannot get them to work in this natural state. Hence, both the horse and the nigger must be broken; that is breaking them from one form of mental life to another. KEEP THE BODY, TAKE THE MIND! In other words, break the will to resist. Now the breaking process is the same for both the horse and the nigger, only slightly varying in degrees. But, as we said before, there is an art in long range economic planning. YOU MUST KEEP YOUR EYE AND THOUGHTS ON THE FEMALE and the OFFSPRING of the horse and the nigger. A brief discourse in offspring development will shed light on the key to sound economic principles. Pay little attention to the generation of original breaking, but CONCENTRATE ON FUTURE GENERATION. Therefore, if you break the FEMALE mother, she will BREAK the offspring in its early years of development; and when the offspring is old enough to work, she will deliver it up to you, for her normal female protective tendencies will have been lost in the original breaking process. For example, take the case of the wild stud horse, a female horse and an already infant horse and compare the breaking process with two captured nigger males in their natural state, a pregnant nigger woman with her infant offspring. Take the stud horse, break him for limited containment. Completely break the female horse until she becomes very gentle, whereas you or anybody can ride her in her comfort. Breed the mare and the stud until you have the desired offspring. Then, you can turn the stud to freedom until you need him again. Train the female horse whereby she will eat out of your hand, and she will in turn train the infant horse to eat out of your hand, also. When it comes to breaking the uncivilized nigger, use the same process, but vary the degree and step up the pressure, so as to do a complete reversal of the mind. Take the meanest and most restless nigger, strip him of his clothes in front of the remaining male niggers, the female, and the nigger infant, tar and feather him, tie each leg to a different horse faced in opposite directions, set him afire and beat both horses to pull him apart in front of the remaining niggers. The next step is to take a bullwhip and beat the remaining nigger males to the point of death, in front of the female and the infant. Don’t kill him, but PUT THE FEAR OF GOD IN HIM, for he can be useful for future breeding.

THE BREAKING PROCESS OF THE AFRICAN WOMAN

Take the female and run a series of tests on her to see if she will submit to your desires willingly. Test her in every way, because she is the most important factor for good economics. If she shows any sign of resistance in submitting completely to your will, do not hesitate to use the bullwhip on her to extract that last bit of [b----] out of her. Take care not to kill her, for in doing so, you spoil good economics. When in complete submission, she will train her offsprings in the early years to submit to labor when they become of age. Understanding is the best thing. Therefore, we shall go deeper into this area of the subject matter concerning what we have produced here in this breaking process of the female nigger. We have reversed the relationship; in her natural uncivilized state, she would have a strong dependency on the uncivilized nigger male, and she would have a limited protective tendency toward her independent male offspring and would raise male offsprings to be dependent like her. Nature had provided for this type of balance. We reversed nature by burning and pulling a civilized nigger apart and bullwhipping the other to the point of death, all in her presence. By her being left alone, unprotected, with the MALE IMAGE DESTROYED, the ordeal caused her to move from her psychologically dependent state to a frozen, independent state. In this frozen, psychological state of independence, she will raise her MALE and female offspring in reversed roles. For FEAR of the young male’s life, she will psychologically train him to be MENTALLY WEAK and DEPENDENT, but PHYSICALLY STRONG. Because she has become psychologically independent, she will train her FEMALE offsprings to be psychologically independent. What have you got? You’ve got the nigger WOMAN OUT FRONT AND THE nigger MAN BEHIND AND SCARED. This is a perfect situation of sound sleep and economics. Before the breaking process, we had to be alertly on guard at all times. Now, we can sleep soundly, for out of frozen fear his woman stands guard for us. He cannot get past her early slave-molding process. He is a good tool, now ready to be tied to the horse at a tender age. By the time a nigger boy reaches the age of sixteen, he is soundly broken in and ready for a long life of sound and efficient work and the reproduction of a unit of good labor force. Continually through the breaking of uncivilized savage niggers, by throwing the nigger female savage into a frozen psychological state of independence, by killing the protective male image, and by creating a submissive dependent mind of the nigger male slave, we have created an orbiting cycle that turns on its own axis forever, unless a phenomenon occurs and re-shifts the position of the male and female slaves. We show what we mean by example. Take the case of the two economic slave units and examine them close.

THE NEGRO MARRIAGE

We breed two nigger males with two nigger females. Then, we take the nigger male away from them and keep them moving and working. Say one nigger female bears a nigger female and the other bears a nigger male; both nigger females—being without influence of the nigger male image, frozen with a independent psychology—will raise their offspring into reverse positions. The one with the female offspring will teach her to be like herself, independent and negotiable (we negotiate with her, through her, by her, negotiates her at will). The one with the nigger male offspring, she being frozen subconscious fear for his life, will raise him to be mentally dependent and weak, but physically strong; in other words, body over mind. Now, in a few years when these two offsprings become fertile for early reproduction, we will mate and breed them and continue the cycle. That is good, sound and long range comprehensive planning.

WARNING: POSSIBLE INTERLOPING NEGATIVES

Earlier, we talked about the non-economic good of the horse and the nigger in their wild or natural state; we talked out the principle of breaking and tying them together for orderly production. Furthermore, we talked about paying particular attention to the female savage and her offspring for orderly future planning, then more recently we stated that, by reversing the positions of the male and female savages, we created an orbiting cycle that turns on its own axis forever unless a phenomenon occurred and reshifts positions of the male and female savages. Our experts warned us about the possibility of this phenomenon occurring, for they say that the mind has a strong drive to correct and re-correct itself over a period of time if it can touch some substantial original historical base; and they advised us that the best way to deal with the phenomenon is to shave off the brute’s mental history and create a multiplicity of phenomena of illusions, so that each illusion will twirl in its own orbit, something similar to floating balls in a vacuum. This creation of multiplicity of phenomena of illusions entails the principle of crossbreeding the nigger and the horse as we stated above, the purpose of which is to create a diversified division of labor; thereby creating different levels of labor and different values of illusion at each connecting level of labor. The results of which is the severance of the points of original beginnings for each sphere illusion. Since we feel that the subject matter may get more complicated as we proceed in laying down our economic plan concerning the purpose, reason and effect of crossbreeding horses and niggers, we shall lay down the following definition terms for future generations. Orbiting cycle means a thing turning in a given path. Axis means upon which or around which a body turns. Phenomenon means something beyond ordinary conception and inspires awe and wonder. Multiplicity means a great number. Means a globe. Crossbreeding a horse means taking a horse and breeding it with an ass and you get a dumb, backward, ass long-headed mule that is not reproductive nor productive by itself. Crossbreeding niggers mean taking so many drops of good white blood and putting them into as many nigger women as possible, varying the drops by the various tone that you want, and then letting them breed with each other until another circle of color appears as you desire. What this means is this: Put the niggers and the horse in a breeding pot, mix some asses and some good white blood and what do you get? You got a multiplicity of colors of ass backward, unusual niggers, running, tied to backward ass long-headed mules, the one productive of itself, the other sterile. (The one constant, the other dying, we keep the nigger constant for we may replace the mules for another tool) both mule and nigger tied to each other, neither knowing where the other came from and neither productive for itself, nor without each other.

CONTROLLED LANGUAGE

Crossbreeding completed, for further severance from their original beginning, WE MUST COMPLETELY ANNIHILATE THE MOTHER TONGUE of both the new nigger and the new mule, and institute a new language that involves the new life’s work of both. You know language is a peculiar institution. It leads to the heart of a people. The more a foreigner knows about the language of another country the more he is able to move through all levels of that society. Therefore, if the foreigner is an enemy of the country, to the extent that he knows the body of the language, to that extent is the country vulnerable to attack or invasion of a foreign culture. For example, if you take a slave, if you teach him all about your language, he will know all your secrets, and he is then no more a slave, for you can’t fool him any longer, and BEING A FOOL IS ONE OF THE BASIC INGREDIENTS OF ANY INCIDENTS TO THE MAINTENANCE OF THE SLAVERY SYSTEM. For example, if you told a slave that he must perform in getting out “our crops” and he knows the language well, he would know that “our crops” didn’t mean “our crops” and the slavery system would break down, for he would relate on the basis of what “our crops” really meant. So you have to be careful in setting up the new language; for the slaves would soon be in your house, talking to you as “man to man” and that is death to our economic system. In addition, the definitions of words or terms are only a minute part of the process. Values are created and transported by communication through the body of the language. A total society has many interconnected value systems. All the values in the society have bridges of language to connect them for orderly working in the society. But for these language bridges, these many value systems would sharply clash and cause internal strife or civil war, the degree of the conflict being determined by the magnitude of the issues or relative opposing strength in whatever form. For example, if you put a slave in a hog pen and train him to live there and incorporate in him to value it as a way of life completely, the biggest problem you would have out of him is that he would worry you about provisions to keep the hog pen clean, or the same hog pen and make a slip and incorporate something in his language whereby he comes to value a house more than he does his hog pen, you got a problem. He will soon be in your house.

Additional Note: “Henty Berry, speaking in the Virginia House of Delegates in 1832, described the situation as it existed in many parts of the South at this time: “We have, as far as possible, closed every avenue by which light may enter their (the slaves) minds. If we could extinguish the capacity to see the light, our work would be complete; they would then be on a level with the beasts of the field and we should be safe. I am not certain that we would not do it, if we could find out the process and that on the plea of necessity.” From Brown America, The story of a New Race by Edwin R. Embree. 1931 The Viking Press.









anarch
QUOTE(neurotic.nelly @ Apr 10 2008, 01:20 PM) *
So, blacks still have to deal with something akin to historic PTSD passed along from generation to generation since slavery. This kind of brutality does not disappear after one generation.
Part of being white and having white privilege means that whites (and their ancestors) do not have to deal with the ramifications of pyschological and physical and systemic terror ...


Thank you for saying this.

The Willie Lynch text, unfortunately, isn't real. Which is not to say that the points it makes don't ring true, because they resonate with so many people. So thank you for contributing your words and views on white privilege, regardless. "Breaking the spirit, generation after generation" is exactly right.
neurotic.nelly
Anarch,

Wow! Thanks for posting.

From the blog, "After the first sentence, I had my doubts. A quick Google search seems to confirm. Fake. Hoax."

Quick indeed, I did a few google searches before I posted here, but I didn't scroll down enough, the articles and links that claim it a hoax are a little further down.

The article "Death of the Willie Lynch Speech" by Manu Ampim strikes me as inflammatory. Manu says,

"Some people argue that it doesn’t matter if the speech is fact or fiction, because white people did use tactics to divide us. Of course tactics were used but what advocates of this argument don’t understand is that African people will not solve our problems and address the real issues confronting us by adopting half-baked urban myths. If there are people who know that the Lynch speech is fictional, yet continue to promote it in order to “wake us up,” then we should be very suspicious of these people, who lack integrity and will openly violate trust and willingly lie to our community.

Even if the Willie Lynch mythology were true, the speech is focused on what white slaveholders were doing, and there is no plan, program, or any agenda items for Black people to implement. It is ludicrous to give god-like powers to one white man who allegedly gave a single speech almost 300 years ago, and claim that this is the main reason why Black people have problems among ourselves today! Unfortunately, too often Black people would rather believe a simple and convenient myth, rather than spend the time studying and understanding a situation. Too many of our people want a one-page, simplified Ripley’s Believe It or Not explanation of “what happened.”

I do appreciate his research, but he comes off as pompous and arrogant here. He is, afterall, a professional historian and researcher. Come on! Urban myths that are suppossedly over three hundred years old, who has the time to research the texts, a professional historian and researcher, that's who.

My points still stand because aside from Willie Lynch, the psychological, physical, and systemic traumas experience by slaves were real! Their affects are still experienced and shared in every black hood across America.
anarch
QUOTE(neurotic.nelly @ Apr 10 2008, 04:38 PM) *
I do appreciate his research, but he comes off as pompous and arrogant here.

My points still stand because aside from Willie Lynch, the psychological, physical, and systemic traumas experience by slaves were real! Their affects are still experienced and shared in every black hood across America.


Yes, I agree entirely. I hadn't actually followed the links to the Manu piece, which you're right is pompous and arrogant - a common character flaw in academics (full disclosure: I'm a graduate student in history).

Metafilter post featuring Peggy McIntosh's essay illustrated by lolcatz photos, and White Liberal Bingo (I laughed my way through this one).

The ensuing discussion is a mix of stupid and smart, but the gem is a link to this "Racism Fatigue" essay by Kate Harding:

[Excerpt] "As a white person, I haven’t been sensitized to covert racism by a lifetime of experiences. Unlike a person of color who has no choice but to see and feel it every day, I actually do have to “go looking for it”; my privilege could otherwise allow me to go through life believing it doesn’t exist. Because I care about being anti-racist, I do go looking, do make an effort to educate myself about patterns of racism I wouldn’t automatically recognize–and to question myself when my kneejerk reaction is, “Oh, come on–I’m supposed to believe that’s racist?”

But because I’m white, I also have the option of not looking any time I don’t feel like it. That’s what privilege is. It’s the option to ignore nasty shit that doesn’t directly affect my own life, my career, my relationships, my bank account, my social standing, my housing situation, etc."
beck
*delurking to say i love this discussion*.

Beth Ditto said something i really liked the other day (can't find the quote anywhere dammit) about how people see the current President as stupid and useless, but no-one writes off all white males that way, whereas if Obama or Hillary put a foot wrong, it's doesn't reflect just on them as individuals, but on their entire ethnic group/gender.

reminded me of reading the black notebooks by toi derricotte. she gives a simple but brilliant explanation of white privilege that kind of expands on that - how every action she takes she is constantly aware that it will be seen as a reflection on all people of colour and the constant burden of that. everyone should read it (although i admit, not the most cheerful book in my collection).

*relurks*
obelix2
I took part in a white privilege discussion a few years, as one of the white participants. The part that gave me whiplash started with a simple question. "Would you agree that being black puts you at a disadvantage in many situations?" I come from a mostly minority town, and I had seen for years that skin color definitely influenced which middle or high school you attended, or what jobs were available to you. The answer to it was "Definitely yes".

"So would you agree that being white gives you an advantage in many situations?" THWACK!

It seems basic to me now, but that question from the moderator shook me. I had never put two and two together. I knew that my black friends were getting screwed over, but it never was apparent to me that I was given opportunities that I didn't necessarily deserve, just because I was white.
anarch
stuff about white privilege I've come across lately:

Mirrors of Privilege documentary
positive review

angry negative review

Youtube excerpt



"Detour-Spotting for White Anti-Racists" [pdf]
anarch
bump for bob4both, if he's interested in continuing the conversation from the Feminist Outrage thread.



Also, links from What Tami Said:

What do we do when this happens--when allies fail? How can we address mistakes, while preserving relationships and maintaining the power that comes through alliances with people outside of our group? How do I think an ally should respond when their bias or privilege is called out? How do I think marginalized groups should handle the mistakes allies make? Part One. Part Two.
Persiflager
Thanks for bumping an interesting thread, anarch!
angie_21
yes I'd love to take part in any discussions! As someone who benefits from white privilege it's something I always feel I could (should) learn more about. As I said over in the Feminist thread, I just taught a course on Race & Racism, and even though I thought I knew a bit about the subject, I really learned a lot of things that I hadn't really realized.

One of the things that really struck me (similar to obelix's comment form 2009!) was the concept behind white prvilege that white people simply will never know what it's like to be a racial minority, having never experienced it. Hand in hand is the idea that the priviliges white people receive are "invisible" because we see them as being normal human rights. Yet at the same time, racial minorities often don't receive these rights. It really stuck with me, especially after I used the only analogy I could think of to understand it better - men will never know what it's like to be a woman, no matter how considerate or open-minded they are, because they go through life being treated like men, and having certain privileges that women don't have. And because they've never noticed that they have these privileges and we don't, as being a man to them is "normal" and just the way the world is, they don't really notice the fact that discrimination against women is still a part of everyday life.

I really like the essay Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh.
anarch
Glad you like reading the thread, Persiflager and angie!

One thing about the McIntosh essay that I've encountered in arguments about it elsewhere: some people want to throw it out because "Numbers 11 through 26 don't hold true for me or anyone I know, therefore, the whole thing is a piece of crap" kind of thing. But McIntosh used it as a description ONLY of what she could see in her own life.

How did your course go, Angie? Did anybody get defensive? I've heard anecdotes from some teachers that fewer students get defensive these days. Presumably (if their experience is representative, which it may not be) because these ideas are circulating through other channels, like here on the web. Of course so much depends on geography, homogeneity of community, etc.
angie_21
Oh I hate to think that people read McItosh's essay and get all defensive, and only look for the concrete actions. The whole point of her essay is that it's about a feeling and a social experience, something that permeates your very identity as a "normal" person. I know where I am, there are 4-8 different shades of whitish-coloured makeup in every brand, and only 2 or 3 to cover the entire spectrum of darker shades after that, so I don't see how number 26 isn't true. I read one comment that argued that complaining about band-aids was just petty, which I guess in their mind discounts all other types of racial bias that are more serious? It's supposed to be just one more example of the many little things that add up over time! aarrgh!

I found the class really fun to teach. Most students were very interested, and every once in a while when I would give a really horrifying example or case study you'd hear everyone in the room gasp. Teaching this course in western Canada, where white/black relations are pretty tame in comparison to the south, I still taught quite a bit about the history of racism and slavery in America, but I shifted the more standard course focus to include two large components about immigration and colonialism - Islamophobia and Aboriginal Canadians wre the two major case studies for it. I think I organized it well enough that all the concepts were laid out first, so by the time I talked about the real case studies, people were willing to be open minded. But you never know, given the kind of students who take the course, I'm probably preaching to the converted anyways. People did get confused when I went into genetics and explained how race doesn't exist as a biological reality, only a social construct. I'd say while many of them were willing to accept it as an idea, less than half understood the biology, either that or less than half were able to break down their social conditioning, and they didn't really quite get it.

I was disappointed to realize how stong racism against Aboriginal Canadians is here. People who were totally anti-racism when it came to black rights in America, still believed a lot of false stereotypes about Aboriginals and sometimes even said racist things without even realizing it. Again they understood it all in theory, but in the end I think many people found it hard to accept that the situation and stereotypes about black people in the US is very similar to Aboriginals in Canada, and it has a lot to do with economic status, not inherent biological or cultural characteristics! In the end, some students still seemed to think, well obviously it's racism when Americans discriminate against black people, but Indians really are like ___________ (insert stereotype here) so that's different." All things the talk about next time, I guess.

I was also disappointed that almost every day, I was able to bring in a real-world case study of overt racism. That healthcare teabagger thing was just insane. Sorry to be so long-winded! I'm just excited to talk about it!
angie_21
Oh one other thing that drove me nuts... stupid Alberta.. sometimes when I told people I was teaching the course, they would use it as a reason to start spouting their own racist ideas. I have no idea why. It was like, "Oh, you're teaching a course about racism? Well, while we're on the topic of race, have you ever noticed how the asians are taking over this neighbourhood with their smelly food and their little zippy cars?" Aarrgh!
anarch
QUOTE(angie_21 @ May 14 2010, 06:36 AM) *
I read one comment that argued that complaining about band-aids was just petty, which I guess in their mind discounts all other types of racial bias that are more serious?

Yes, that's exactly their argument. A lot of people who react like that already have their minds made up and are so resistant to the possibility that they might, just might, have something to learn about the issue, that they just object object object object object. The concept of taking some time to think over the challenges to their worldview doesn't seem to even occur to them.

I grew up in Calgary, so I hear you on the racism against Aboriginal people. We "multicultural" Canadians like to pride ourselves on being better about race than Americans, but all that does is give people an excuse to never think about the shit that went on and still goes on in our country. As long as it doesn't affect them personally, eh?
anarch
QUOTE(angie_21 @ May 14 2010, 06:45 AM) *
Oh one other thing that drove me nuts... stupid Alberta.. sometimes when I told people I was teaching the course, they would use it as a reason to start spouting their own racist ideas. I have no idea why. It was like, "Oh, you're teaching a course about racism? Well, while we're on the topic of race, have you ever noticed how the asians are taking over this neighbourhood with their smelly food and their little zippy cars?" Aarrgh!


BWAHAHA! Yeah. Magic words "course about racism" probably opens the floodgates on years of accumulated resentment.

I don't get the "little zippy cars". Is there really that strong a correlation with car type? What kind of car are they talking about?
angie_21
To be honest I don't really know for sure, but I imagine it's the sporty Hondas and Toyotas that people are thinking of. (well if the car is from Japan, I guess the driver must be too, right?) I think it's partly from when there was that trend with street racing and modified cars, which a lot of people here automatically associated with Asian gangs. So clearly, sporty Japanese car with purple neon headlights next door = Asian gang moving into the neighbourhood. I don't think that even made any sense at all, but I've heard it said in so many words more than once!

I still remember in high school when it was first pointed out to me, by an English teacher of all people, the state of racism in Canada. We were reading a novel about South Africa during Apartheid, and it talked about the Homelands and segregation in Johannesburg, and we were all being very morally outraged, until our teacher looked at us like we were crazy and said, what exactly do you think it's still like today for Aboriginal Canadians? Do you really think they get treated just like other Canadians? It was a weird, paradigm shift kind of moment for a lot of us. It still baffles me that we get fed all this multicultural propaganda in school and literally one page in our history textbook talked about treaties and the Indian Act, and there wasn't a single page on residential schools!

I sense a rant starting, I'm going to stop now. That was one great thing about teaching the class, I got to rant to a large audience, or at least I did for as long as I could keep myself from getting carried away!
ketto
I know the CBC was talking a lot about a survey or study they did (or someone else? I can't remember) talking about how much discrimination went on in the Country. In the prairie provinces racism and discrimination against aboriginal people is the highest. It's no surprise. I mean, I we have hundreds of murdered and missing women across the country and it's a constant struggle to get it noticed. It also seemed like many of the white people they interviewed felt it wasn't a very big deal (but still a bit of an issue) while all the people of colour they spoke with felt it was still a major issue and something they experience daily.

I work at a women's centre and we're located in a not-ideal, difficult to get to, just on the edge of a new suburban development. All of our staff is white and very conscious that we need to make sure women from all cultures and faith feel comfortable coming here. On Wednesday I went to a discussion with other organizations in the city about ending violence against aboriginal women and girls and I talked to a young woman who said she actually lives in the area we're located in. She was asking about the types of barriers aboriginal women face when trying to come to us and I mentioned the usual things and then she told me that, even though she's well established, owns a home, and lives in that neighbourhood she still experiences a lot of racism. She suggested that even if our Centre was easier to access, most aboriginal women wouldn't want to because of fears of prejudice. As conscious as I am about issues like this, the thought hadn't really crossed my mind as a significant barrier. It was a good reminder of just how blind we become to the realities of other people around us.

foryoursplendor
I just found this thread for the first time, and WOW. I'll be checking it out often. *gulps down the last 26 years of rage/embarrassment/awkward emotions over being Aboriginal in a White world*
anarch
splendor, welcome!

angie, I remember people arguing aggrievedly that Aboriginal people have it EASIER than mainstream Cdns because "they don't have to pay taxes"! Yeesh.

QUOTE(ketto @ May 15 2010, 09:11 AM) *
It also seemed like many of the white people they interviewed felt it wasn't a very big deal (but still a bit of an issue) while all the people of colour they spoke with felt it was still a major issue and something they experience daily.
It was a good reminder of just how blind we become to the realities of other people around us.


Damn, it's good to come in here and read stuff like this, after reading shit like this:

If campus counselors, diversity officers, and others administrators lead seminars, training sessions, and orientations that underscore racial elements in social interactions, they might also heighten the perception of racist attitudes in others and the attribution of racist motives to them. Minority students might feel less "acceptance," now and then over-reading negative responses to them as race-based. Administrators want to improve the racial atmosphere in the institutions, but if sensitivities go up along with awareness, then the institution will end up with a lot more cases of race-based allegations than it did before---in other words, a worse racial climate.
bob4both
QUOTE
So anyway, in short, bob's insistence that it wasn't a race issue and his surprise that it went in that direction, I thought it might have something to do with layers of not-knowing.


Yup, I'd say that sums it up. I don't think I'm up to the level of conversation regarding race that my post has taken this to. My racial profiling went little beyond the childhood jokes of white men having no rhythm or blacks not liking to ski; which were laughed at by all, black & white. I guess I'm a bit naive to real racial issues.
foryoursplendor
As if there are people that still believe that Aboriginals don't pay taxes... oh wait sorry, what I should be sounding shocked about is that I actually give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that they are well informed and won't make ridiculous assumptions based on decades of misinformation. I'll never stop though, because that would just be too depressing.
angie_21
Hi splendor! smile.gif

Unfortunately, there are also people who believe all Aboriginals get to go to University for free and the only reason they don't is because they're either not smart enough or not motivated enough. I had a lot of people ask about school and taxes in class actually, they seem to be widely circulated myths that that no one bothers to question. gah!

I have a great article I read for class, where a researcher interviewed Aboriginal women about their experiences with racism in Alberta. "Aboriginal Women and Everyday Racism in Alberta: From Lived Experiences of Racism to Strategies for Personal Healing and Collective Resistance" by Ronnie Leah in Critical Criminology. The women describe what it is like to have almost every social interaction influenced by the fact that they are Aboriginal and not white. I can only try to imagine what that is like. You have to access it through a university library or journal subscription, but if there is a way to send PDFs through this message board somehow, pm me and I can try to send it to you.

One of the best things about teaching the course was that I got to talk with two of my aboriginal students who came in to my office hours to discuss their own personal experiences of racism. It was surprising how simply by the authority of my being a sessional instructor, they felt safe telling me very personal stories about themselves. As someone who has no personal experience being racially discriminated against, I felt very privileged to hear their stories and be able to learn from their experiences, and I hope it was helpful to them to be able to share their experiences as well.

ketto, my aunt works for a women's, Aboriginal, and immigrant resource centre that seems to have done a really good job of combining everything at once. (She's where I learned a lot of my social ideals from!) They are based in the lowest income part of her city, not the inner city but the really old & run-down suburbs a few minutes outside of downtown. I think they actually focus on helping dual minorities who are facing the worst of both worlds, and maybe there are women's shelters in other areas of the city that are more generalized and may face similar problems as what you are describing. She's noted that it seems to be a big problem in the activist community that women's charities have a leadership of white women, while charities or organizations for ethnic minorities have a leadership of ethnic men and white men. No matter what, people facing dual minorities can still feel left out!
angie_21
Bob, I just read the rest of what happened in the feminist outrage thread and I wanted to say thanks for bringing the topic up, you started a great discussion. I also disagreed with your point of view, but as it was mentioned, the topic was brought up and discussed pretty respectfully by everyone involved and that's awesome. It would be silly for us to throw you out of the discussion or ignore what you had to say just because we disagree, since that would kind of defeat the purpose of discussing it! I do know there are many cases where people of mixed heritage more often choose to identify with the heritage of their father than their mother, as if by taking their father's last name they're also adopting most of his social identity as well. It's yet another example of how social expectations influence what we do... but in this specific situation, and many others where black/white race divisions are involved, it's hard to argue that race isn't the major factor.
anarch
QUOTE(bob4both @ May 17 2010, 05:01 AM) *
Yup, I'd say that sums it up. I don't think I'm up to the level of conversation regarding race that my post has taken this to. My racial profiling went little beyond the childhood jokes of white men having no rhythm or blacks not liking to ski; which were laughed at by all, black & white. I guess I'm a bit naive to real racial issues.


Ha, after reading in Feminist Outrage that you were taking the conversation here, I started to gear up for a fight. Putting the gear down now... smile.gif

Thanks, bob. I'm a bit disoriented. I usually have to reiterate my points over and over again, from many different angles, before getting the kind of acknowledgment you've made. If more people handled potentially awkward and loaded conversations like you have, our society as a whole would be a lot further along than it is.

angie, yeah, that's another one, the "free university but they're too [insert pejorative here] to do it" saw. Aargh.

My mother in law recently announced that "it's up to the individual -- whether they have motivation or not" thing, in regard to inner city black kids. "There are social programs they can take advantage of, social programs all over the place, but..."

I was too taken aback to tackle it right then. Never would have thought she'd have that point of view, but the company she keeps is probably rubbing off on her.
foryoursplendor
QUOTE(angie_21 @ May 17 2010, 06:41 PM) *
I have a great article I read for class, where a researcher interviewed Aboriginal women about their experiences with racism in Alberta. "Aboriginal Women and Everyday Racism in Alberta: From Lived Experiences of Racism to Strategies for Personal Healing and Collective Resistance" by Ronnie Leah in Critical Criminology. The women describe what it is like to have almost every social interaction influenced by the fact that they are Aboriginal and not white. I can only try to imagine what that is like. You have to access it through a university library or journal subscription, but if there is a way to send PDFs through this message board somehow, pm me and I can try to send it to you.


I would love to read that essay, and unfortunately would likely relate to it a lot as I am myself an Aboriginal woman.

I have a friend who is a film maker here in Winnipeg, he has made quite a few films that are geared towards kids to allow them to see media of Aboriginal people potrayed as regular, every day people (rather than the usual Hollywood noble Indian/Savage dichotomy). His films are social commentaries as well as very humorous. He is doing one in the near future that he has asked me to be in, should be very fun! I will try to find some of his vids on the net if you're interested.
bob4both
QUOTE
Ha, after reading in Feminist Outrage that you were taking the conversation here, I started to gear up for a fight. Putting the gear down now...

QUOTE
the topic was brought up and discussed pretty respectfully by everyone involved and that's awesome.


Thanx, ladies for letting me bow out gracefully biggrin.gif Yes, it was a great discussion. And anarch; I'm sure we'll have other opportunities for "discussion" in the future. I am the opinionated sort and do like to stir the pot occasionally, especially subjects I'm educated on. But I also know when I'm in over my head. This Aboriginal conversation is something I'm not familiar with; I think I'll do a bit of research...
anarch
QUOTE(foryoursplendor @ May 17 2010, 07:24 PM) *
I have a friend who is a film maker here in Winnipeg, he has made quite a few films that are geared towards kids to allow them to see media of Aboriginal people potrayed as regular, every day people (rather than the usual Hollywood noble Indian/Savage dichotomy). His films are social commentaries as well as very humorous. He is doing one in the near future that he has asked me to be in, should be very fun! I will try to find some of his vids on the net if you're interested.


I'm interested. Do please post links if you can find them!
foryoursplendor
Anarch,

I don't think any of his films are online, but there is a link that names just a few titles/descriptions of his films. He has screenings for them all over the world so he's a good name to remember if you're interested in this sort of thing. (His name is Darryl Nepinak).

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseact...logId=498696872
auralpoison
QUOTE(bob4both @ May 18 2010, 06:33 AM) *
This Aboriginal conversation is something I'm not familiar with; I think I'll do a bit of research...


Yeah, I gotta say I am pretty ignorant on the Canadian Aboriginal situation. My knowledge of the US situation stems basically from one friend that posts a LOT of stuff on FB that I read.
angie_21
The #1 thing to look up on Aboriginal Canadians is Residential Schools. Most people don't know the last school closed in the 1990s and that the level of abuse was strong enough that they had extremely high death rates across all of Canada. Many people of Aboriginal heritage I've talked to (something of a small sample!) have directly brought up how very important they feel it is for the world to know what happened to Indians in residential schools. There was a similar system in place in many parts of America.

Good BBC news article on Canada's recent apology for residential schools

CBC Archival footage on Residential Schools

Or if you want a detailed, controversial, and possibly biased independent film on the subject, look up Unrepentant by Kevin Anette on youtube. He accuses the church of deliberately trying to commit genocide against Aboriginals through the residential schools. He, however, has been accused on not getting legal consent of many of the interviewees in the film, who might not have told their stories if they had known they would be publicly displayed in a film.

Some other stuff:

CBC discussion of what it legally means to have Indian Status (includes a description of taxes and post-secondary funding to dispel those myths!)

And, if you're interested in something dry with tiny text, but getting technical in the legal rights, voting rights, land rights, etc Canada purposefully and knowingly denied to Aboriginal Canadians, and the justifications for it:
History of Discriminatory Laws (Government of Canada website)
ketto
FYS, that's funny. In one of my clases at Uni we went to see him speak and watch a couple of his films. For some reason I had a feeling that's who you were talking about.

In regards to the residential school issues, I'll be intersted to hear what comes out now that they're beginning interviews with the survivors. They're collecting aboriginal volunteers to be the interviewers. Next Wednesday (although some sites say June 11th) is the National Day of Healing and Reconciliation and I know a lot of different activities are happening all over the country. I plan to check out ours too. A pipe ceremony starts at 5:30 am and then there's some programming all day. Didn't the last residential school only close in 1996? That's unbelievable but here we are.

Yesterday there was a really interesting documentary on CBC's The Current talking to folks from Newfoundland and Labrador who are Mi"kmaq and trying to get status. They've been trying to form a new band but now they're overrun with over 20 000 applications from people seeking status and they're refusing to extend the deadline. In a province where so many people have been forced to keep their history quiet they're just getting silenced again by the government.

In Uni we studied a bit about the Indian Act but I heard a woman on the radio last week who was explaining all the different ridiculous ways it was applied. I already knew that if aboriginal women married white men they lost their staus, while aboriginal men marrying white women kept there's, but she explained that because status can be carried on by men and not by women, it would be possible to have twins, a boy and a girl, and the boy would be status while his sister would not be (there was more to this, having to do with who the grandmother married but it's so complicated I can't remember the details).

It should not take this many years for these things to be corrected.
foryoursplendor
I've never taken a class about Aboriginal studies in university, I only know what I know because it has played a huge role in my life because of how my family has been affected, and ultimately how I've been affected having been raised by people who were brought up in the residential school system. I'm also status, and that has seemed to come with the responsibility of knowing what rights I have/don't have and trying very politely tp explain how they work to people who often hate me because they think I went to university for free, or that I don't pay taxes or that I get "cheques in the mail from the government"... (none of these things are true).

Yeh, Darryl has been a friend of mine for years. I've helped out on a lot of his films and have my name in the credits of a few. Ervin Chartrand is also an Aboriginal film maker who has some very awesome films about the sex trade. He is a family friend, and is currently working on a film about his teenage years, where he grew up under my Grandma's roof alongside my older brother.

What is weird about that marriage/status thing is that if you were an Aboriginal man and you married a non-Aboriginal woman, the non-Aboriginal wife was privy to becoming status.

My Grandma went through residential school back in the day. Because she grew up there, the ideals of Christianity were enforced, so she had a moral dilemma when it came to getting married to my Grandpa (who was White). She didn't want to lose her status, but she didn't want to live in sin either. She chose not to get married.

anarch
foryoursplendor, thanks for the pointer to Darryl's stuff. I'll keep an eye out for his name at film festivals etc. Chartrand's, too.

Typical patriarchal crap, the Canadian government's policy to make Aboriginal "status" passable through men only. I can't remember when they fixed it, but it wasn't that far in the past. A few decades.

OK I looked it up: not until 1985 did was woman who married a non-Aboriginal man allowed to keep her status. Sheesh.

Persiflager
Following on from invisible knapsack...

The biggest thing that I found in mine is that I don't have to think about race if I don't want to. It's rarely forced upon me, easily dismissed, and in no way necessary for my survival or success in life.

I'm thinking more about racism now than I did a few months ago, but I'm generally aware that it's still optional - I can pick it up, think about it for a while, pat myself on the back, and then put it away and get on with other things.

That's a mighty privilege (and a time-saver).
auralpoison
*bump*
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