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girlygirlgag
QUOTE(morgue_rat @ Oct 22 2006, 10:03 PM) *

As a "pro-sex, anti-porn" person, I have a lot of qualms about the sex industry and sex workers, but that would really be a hundred-paragraph debate. I find it disconcerting that 85% of sex workers, whether they're strippers or prostitutes, have been sexually abused. I also find it disturbing that many people are drawing their sexual liberation from people who are paid to mimic sex. Ariel Levy's "Female Chauvinist Pigs" is a good piece of literature that covers this. There is also a problem within the feminist community of defending any woman's choice as a brilliant, infallible decision, which just simply isn't true. Loose thoughts, though, nothing set in stone. Thanks.




I agree with you morgue. I know a lot of women who worked in the sex industry and it was never, ever, an empowering experience. In fact, some are dead from overdoses, and one from murder.

maddy29
y'all should come over to the porn: is it cock-blocking feminism thread and restart this conversation- i pretty much agree with what you're saying, but i found myself to be in the vast minority over there.....i'm still interested in discussing it though.

and i MUST Read that book because people keep recommending it to me and it seems that she's saying exactly what i've been trying to put together.
lucizoe
There's totally a thread dedicated to sex work here, and one about porn here.

katiebelle2882
its fine if you dont agree with it, but i think the way you said it really puts down the girl bc shes a stripper and therefore somehow less worthy of something then you are. i think its fine if you dont agree with her choices, but no reason to be an asshole about it or use that term to somehow discredit her.


but yeah thats in another thread.
maddy29
i'm with morguerat on this one.....

at least, if what she means is that it feels even worse to find out this woman was a stripper?

may not be "rational" or "fair" but feelings usually aren't.....

maybe it's time to bump the porn thread and get that conversation going again...
erinjane
Nevermind.
maddy29
hey all-i copied and pasted this sex work discussion into the porn thread in the F word so we can keep this space open for CBC'ers....
morgue_rat
QUOTE(katiebelle2882 @ Oct 23 2006, 12:07 PM) *

its fine if you dont agree with it, but i think the way you said it really puts down the girl bc shes a stripper and therefore somehow less worthy of something then you are. i think its fine if you dont agree with her choices, but no reason to be an asshole about it or use that term to somehow discredit her.
but yeah thats in another thread.


I <i>wasn't</i> an asshole about it, though. The mention of stripper was more indicative of surprise rather than disdain. How would you react of your best friend/ex-boyfriend tells you he accidentally got a bartender pregnant, then you hear from <i>his</i> best friend six months later that he's been lying through his teeth to you about virtually everything and that this bartender is actually a stripper he met at the club where she was stripping? And using the term to discredit her? What term is a substitute for stripper? Woman-who-removes-her-clothes-in-an-empowered-way?

QUOTE(maddy29 @ Oct 23 2006, 12:19 PM) *

i'm with morguerat on this one.....

at least, if what she means is that it feels even worse to find out this woman was a stripper?

may not be "rational" or "fair" but feelings usually aren't.....

maybe it's time to bump the porn thread and get that conversation going again...


My initial feelings especially weren't rational since I knew previously from the ex-boyfriend that the girl was a drug user and had been sexually abused. You know. Cut for the clothes.

QUOTE(weprevail @ Oct 22 2006, 10:04 PM) *

http://www.mensrights.com.au/page15f.htm

How The Women's Movement Taught Women to Hate Men - By Erin Pizzey

We were sitting around a coffee table in my house, in Goldhawk Road, Hammersmith in London listening to a bossy woman wearing National Health round glasses and a long Indian skirt. She smelled of insense and to few baths. We were all nursing large gin and tonics which was the staple drink in the Women's Lib. Goldhawk Road weekly meetings.

We were trying to follow her convoluted explanations about our 'role in society.' As far as I knew, I had a very simple role in society. I had always wanted to have lots of children, be happily married, and free to tend my house and garden and cook three course meals for my husband. 'What could possibly be wrong with that I asked?' 'Why,' she said angrily. 'Are so many married women deprived of the status of independent human beings?' The answer was; because marriage is based on the property concept, therefore it must be abolished. I looked at the other women in the group, Angela, a teacher had more idea of what was going on. She had trained as a teacher and was used to this confusing amount of jargon. 'What is wrong with owning a house?' I asked. I was obviously a hopeless brain drain. 'You,' she said turning on me. 'Live in a mink-lined trap,' her face was frozen with rage. I decided I'd better shut up and see what else I was getting wrong. 'Why are the mores of our society unfair to women?' was her next question. The answer to that was 'because men are natural oppressors.'

This was not the time to confess to the fact that I had not only a son but seven adopted sons. Certainly, my daughter Cleo and I waged war in a family where two women were pitted gainst nine males. The most oppressive thing the boys ever did was to leave hair in the wash-basin and they could all cook, iron, sew and clean.

The final question was even more confusing. 'Why is the love of a woman for a man, which involves her being the servant to his needs, lauded as 'her' greatest fulfillment?' The answer reduced the room to a puzzled silence. 'Er,' I asked are we talking about lesbians?' We were. 'We,' they always use the royal we ............... 'don't like men nor do we like hetrosexual women. If there is every to be any equality, marriage and the family must be abolished.' We sat there gawking like fish and she smiled a very satisfied smile and glared at me.

I had followed the career of a journalist called Nancy Spain. She worked on 'SHE' magazine. Her radical lesbian ideas interested me and she was writing for the Guardian long before the Guardian Mafia of feminist journalists got going. She died in an aeroplane crash but left behind many of her acolyte's. These were the faces I saw in those early days of the feminist collectives. I went to work in the Women's Liberation Work Shop in Newport Street, off Shaftesbury Avenue. I also attended the first women's conferences and I was struck by the hundreds and hundreds of women claiming to be radical militant lesbians. The first women's conferences were destroyed by violent fisticuffs between these women and most of us were very afraid of them. As far as I was concerned these women did not speak for my gay friends anymore than the radical feminists spoke for all women in our country who were very happy at home with their husbands and their children.

In reality, this was a very minor group of women who were only able to hurl abuse at heterosexual women and their families because they were white, middle class and had media jobs. Before very long they were employing each other and 'marginalizing' the men who tried to work along side them. Men, intimidated by their brutal, violent behavior, moved on and out of many jobs. According to these women all women were victims of men's violent behavior, any attempt for men to fight back met with behind scenes maneuvering and men LET IT HAPPEN.

Fed up with the war, I decided to stay away from the in-fighting that dominated the women's liberation movement and turn my attention to helping in my own local community. I got a letter from the women's liberation office, throwing me out an banning me from attending any of the collectives. The so called women's liberation' movement spread like a cancer across the English chattering classes. I visited the houses of feminist women with my son who carried his action man toys. In their houses there was no vestige of anything 'boyish' at all. No Tonka trucks, no boys toys - nothing that could encourage a boy to think of himself as masculine. The whole idea of men and masculinity in those houses, we considered disgusting. We, the mothers, sat around the kitchen tables rearranging the world according to Marx. I, who had enjoyed men's company enormously, for the feeling that these women underneath all the political chatter, really disliked men. There was nothing sensual about their houses. They disliked cooking and if they had to cook for guests, it was not producing good food and wine that delighted their guests, but a rather rapid need to compete with each other. Was it, I wondered, an English middle class phenomenon? This dislike and need to sneer at men? Certainly their boys were confused and crying. There was no way I could interest my sons in dolls, not that I would want to try. Useless to tell these women that Marx never did anything to women. Was unkind to his family and refused to have women in the Politburo. The feminist gurus had done their job well and most of the women I knew complained about their awful lives. I couldn't see what was awful about having the freedom to do exactly what I pleased and when I pleased. Not for me the daily office rush. I pushed my pram around Shepherd's Bush Market loaded with other people's children and my own. I dreamed of finding a house where I could build a useful community centre in our midst.

The dream materialized but with it, the awful certainty that if I attracted funds and publicity. I would hear the tramp of the man-hating feminists trying to oust me and take over. That is what happened, and the first little get together I ran to encourage other groups to open refuges was dominated by the lesbians and feminists who crowded into our little church hall and voted themselves into a national movement. We, horrified and unused to political manoeuvring, abstained. 'There isn't a working glass women among you,' one of my mothers yelled. This has always been the truth of this disastrous movement. Born in ivory tower academia, it had no relevance to women on the street. 'If only you were all lesbians, you would have no problems of violence,' we were told. We often had women beaten up by their female partners in our refuge. The worst beating I ever saw was between a vicar's daughter and her lover.

All through my career, as a journalist, a writer and a social reformer, I have been hounded and bullied by feminist women and their coat trailing 'new men.' Any of us who have gone to all girl schools, particularly boarding schools, will verify the awful bullying and violence that goes on amongst the girls. For so many years women were tyrants behind their front doors. They were able to sexually abuse, batter and intimidate their children and their husbands now, with the advent of the women's movement, they moved out into the world. They took their aggressive, bullying and intimidating behavior with them. Talking with the men who were accused of abusing their women, I was aware of this movement with its wild and extravagant claims against men had fueled the flames of insecurity and anger in men. I watched horror stricken, as in home after home, I saw boys denied not only their access to their fathers, but also access to all that was normal and masculine in their lives.

Our universities rushed into grasping funding for 'Women's Studies,'' Gender politics,' became the new way to brain wash women with very little education. By now the Politically Correct movement was beginning to hatch and a new form of 'mind control' was devised. Feminists became the new 'thought police.'

The sudden promescuity of women came as a shock to me. The atmosphere of intense dislike for men and anything male lay like a miasma in so many English middle class houses. Overnight in the late sixties in England, confusion reigned. If feminists hated men so much why were so many of them sleeping with the enemy? I am the daughter of a diplomat born in China and it was my Amah who was the one to insist that myself and my twin sister be put out on the hill side. Failing to achieve that she wanted our feet bound. It was women in Africa who practised ritual circumcisions on their daughters. I knew that because I worked with missionaries in Africa. I was fighting a lost cause and what bothered me then and bothered me now, is that men made no attempt to defend themselves.

By now the 'new man' was beginning to emerge and he was not a pretty sight. Parroting everything in the woman in his life was teaching, he could usually be found in woman's conferences running the creches and trying to looking 'caring.' Mostly he was stoned, confused and angry. Maybe because as far as I could see, the new feminists made no effort to share an equal relationship with their male partners. They saw themselves as 'superior beings.' The new men were expected to take their places a few steps behind their women and to do as they were told. Mostly, they had to accept the dictates of the dictators and quietly get on with the household chores and take care of the children. But what ever a new man did, he could never atone for the sins of other men. Any man who disobeyed his partner, was subjected to expulsion from the matrimonial home and in many cases, from a relationship with his children. Now, there were a legion of feminist lawyers and therapists to make their 'sisters' were fully supported in the battle to destroy men.

Why did the relationship between men and women go so badly wrong? I think it goes back to my point about the choices men and women made in the sixties. Men were tired of their roles as 'macho men.' They were strangled in their uniforms of ties and suits. They had no choices in the late fifties but to take on a wife and children and the cost of a mortgage dangled around their necks. In the sixties they rebelled and wanted to take a less violent and domineering role in their lives. They turned to this romantic image of women as soft and gentle. They saw this image as an emotional life style denied to men. Women, however, rebelled against this image of themselves, indeed in so many cases it was a false image, and doomed the masculine concepts of authoritarian rule and aggression and even to wearing the hated suits and ties that men had discarded. Men, for so long, subjected themselves emotionally to women and hated women for their dependence. Women adopting male bullying and aggressive roles and still hating the fact that they need and want men in their lives.

What needs to happen? First of all there has to be a carefully worked out and civilized dialogue that cannot be invaded by the extremes of the right or the left. Both men and women have been guilty of politicizing human relationships. Human relationships are not a matter of political solutions. Any country that has tried to create a political solution to human problems has ended up with concentration camps and gulags. The deep wounds between men and women will take time to heal. It is imperative that women who do not hate men and wish to live in peace with them, should be given space in newspapers and magazines to have their say. Films should be made about women who have made a success of their homes and their families. Bringing up a family requires a large degree of maturity. An ability to sublimate the personal needs and wishes until such time as the children are grown and have left the home. Later, those years of sacrifice will bring the parents such joy. Of course, there will be women who want to work and not have a family. As long as the women has clearly thought out her priorities there is no harm. Just lately my life is too full of nearly forty something women, who have had fulfilling careers but the biological clock is ticking and they are afraid. Now they decide they do want children and a father for their children - for many it is too late and the future, for them is not bright. Some women will be able to balance a home and a career. These women tend to be wealthy and can afford the help needed to bring up the children. Many women will be forced to go out to work against their will. This is because we live in a Western world where caring for children has become devalued and only work outside the house carries with it monitory compensation.

I believe that love between men and women is the strongest relationship on this earth. For now, we have to fight to protect family life. Hopefully, as we move, into a new century, men and women can meet each other not only as equals, partners and friends but also as lovers.


Yuck.

Double-yuck because you imply I'm somehow a man-hater because of an anti-porn status. I suppose the term "pro-sex" failed to impress you. Not to mention that the article was obviously not written in a professional forum (all that crap they teach you in English class about credibility, you know). Gung-ho, assumptions!
pollystyrene
That would be a troll, morgue rat. Don't pay attention. Put him on your ignore list by clicking on his screenname, which takes you to his profile. On the top, right, click on "Profile Options" and select "ignore user"...it's not worth arguing with him. He just posts nonsensical crap.
maddy29
this is just funny "Woman-who-removes-her-clothes-in-an-empowered-way?"

hee hee:)

back to childfree by choice!

ms.gb
my sister called me yesterday to inform me of her 5th pregnancy(which is a surprise). first i said "What!?!?!" to make sure i hadn't misheard her. she confirmed my scared thoughts to which i replied "oh no..." to which she laughed. apparently i wasn't the first to say 'oh no'. but then she agreed with me in that this was a bad time....she's only 9 weeks along..so there's still room for error on the body's part. but she's in for a hard haul with 4 active boys and almost no willing-to-help family nearby. I wish i was closer to help her. heck, i helped hide one of her pregnancies from the entire family for a few months so they wouldn't catch on that it was going to be one of those back to back pregnancies. Poor thing. i honestly don't know how she's going to handle it.

((((vibes for my sis)))
turbojenn
(((((ms gb's sister))))) Oh dear - 5th pregnancy, I don't know how anyone can care for that many children...and I don't mean that in an insulting way at all, I really don't know how you do that - that is a huge challenge for any parent. I hope she has a safe pregnancy, and can find a way to make it work out okay for her.

Meanwhile, yesterday I was out on a press check with a vendor for 5 hours...and the vendor has become a good friend of mine, we get together socially from time to time, but she's much older than I am, and sometimes takes the motherly turn on me, and recently she met turbomann for the first time, and yesterday she just launches into how sad it makes her that I don't want children...how turbomann and I would make cute babies, and what good we would bring into the world, and she can tell that we would be such good parents....and on and on for oh, about 20 minutes. So, I gently explain, once again, that *maaaaaaybe* one day I'll change my mind, but I doubt it. And its not a question of whether we'd be good parents, I'm sure we'd learn to be capable parents, but there's a lot of reasons why I'm not considering children....finally, I had to just cut her off and tell her I was not willing to discuss it any more. WTF? She's never done that to me before, and it was nearly worse than my parents, because she's a *friend* and saying all this tripe to me. Her daughter who's about my age must get it all the time...

So that's my story for the week....
moxiegirl
right now, i'm kind of green with envy over the CBC thread...its been a rough week over in moxieland. I don't regret having moxette at all, but sometimes i just wish i could turn off.

turbo, you know I absolutly respect and admire your CBC descision, especially given turbomann's desire for kidlets. I have known you both our entire adult lives, and you'd both make more than capable parents. Capability, however, does not equal necessity. I make a mean-ass pan of brownies...should I eat them every day?

5 babies?!? *curls up in fetal position and buries head under pillow* You're poor sister. Good luck to her.

ok, re-lurking.
deschatsrouge
My Mom had four kids. she escaped us by getting her Masters Degree, working overtime and climbing the corporate ladder. She's still sane so I guess it worked.
maddy29
moxie your lil one is so cute!!!!

i'm starting a new volunteer job and i can't wait to hang out with babies again,i really miss them. and these are little homeless kids, so i can just enjoy them without anyone looking at me with that 'knowing" smile.....
ms.gb
wow..turbo...that 'friend' has balls....what a pain in the ass.

thanks turbo and moxie...i'll pass along the supportive vibes.

currently, she's got nausea. boo.

humanist77
awww ms.gb, is that your kitty in your avatar? I don't care what people say, I think sphinxs are adorable in their own peculiar way..
ms.gb
yes humanist...that's the jakester...he's quite the character and totally a momma's boy. which drives mr.gb crazy.
but jake drives me crazy when he jumps up at my alarm going off, races off the bed towards his food bowl and wonders why i'm not right behind him. silly cat. rolleyes.gif
deschatsrouge
*I must vent , please excuse my rant.

Why do some people think it's okay to bring their kids and babies to college classes with them?! this has happened several times in my American Sign Language class. the class is silent so whatever noise the kid makes it's ten times more noticable. These women let their toddlers roam around the room bumping in to stuff and pushing furniture around, making a lot of noise. WTF?! Do they not know how disruptive the child is being? they don't even try to controll the little beast, they just smile when it does somthing noisy or disruptive. Like it's cute and funny that no one else can hear the lecture or concentrate. Did giving birth kill the brain cells that alert them of an inapropriat situation? I don't know what is worse, bringing a disruptive toddlar or a crying baby. One day a woman brought her infant to my folklore class, it was crying but she didn't leave!! she just sat there as the kid cried like nothing was happening. What are these people thinking?! I would stay home with the kid if I couldn't get child care. I think it's better to miss one class, than go and disrupt the learning of every one else.

I don't know what my profs are thinking. In these two classes neither prof said anything, they just put up with it. I don't know if it's my place to tell these idiot women to shut the kid up or leave or if I should let my prof do it. I think next time I will give them what for, and if they don't like it they can ram it up their ass %#*$&.

*End of rant
sybarite
Deschatsrouge, that is just wrong, and unfair to everyone else in the class. I think your profs should have done something, but possibly they feel that a parent with child in the class is better than a no-show. I think you'd be within your rights to complain though; you're paying tuition and you want to get the best from the class, and a wandering child will distract from that. Try and stay calm though. smile.gif

I am sure trying to go to school and look after young kids is really difficult, but I cannot understand why people feel it is acceptable to take their kids everywhere. Not good for the kids and not good for other adults.
pollystyrene
That's horrible, dechats! You'd be totally justified in talking to the professor or the dean or whoever. If they don't do something about it this term- maybe they could make it official policy for next term. That's ridiculous.
faerietails
I'm kind of torn on that one, actually. I've been in classes where people (sometimes even the professors) took their kids, but the kids were little angels and were either fast asleep through the whole thing or minded their own business while working on a coloring book or something. As long as it isn't a habit, I don't think people who are pressed for childcare on a certain evening should be banned from taking their kids.

That being said, I've also had the experience where someone took their kid and it wouldn't shut up, which is highly annoying and distracting. Letting your toddlers roam around freely (whether they're making noise or not) is absolutely unacceptable. If you know your kid is going to be noisy and fussy, deal with it and make the sacrifice and stay home. You'd be perfectly within your right to speak out!

*screams* Polly, I'm jealous of your quote!
pollystyrene
?

I actually have that replication in my kitchen. My friend calls it "Molly McSex" smile.gif
faerietails
Okay, that is seriously awesome.
missladyj
I have been on the pill for almost a year and was late this month with of course made me freak the fuck out. not wanting to be pregnant , then getting pregnant would totally suck. I was debating about telling hubby but didn't want to be freaking out alone . so I told him that I was late.


Well I got my period today and am so totally stoked to not be pregnant ! yee haw. I am now off to have beer.
cheers!
faerietails
well then, congrats on your non-pregnancy! smile.gif
ms.gb
yay for non pregnancy....

two more days till my non-fur-furbaby comes home!!!!

(does a really bad cartwheel, falls on her ass, but gets up smiling)

laugh.gif
missladyj
thank you! here have this strawberry jelly filled donut to celebrate!

If the people I work with can celebrate being pregnant then I am gonna celebrate not being pregnant.
ms.gb
*throws confetti*

mmmm do-nut......

*drool*
lucizoe
Yay not-pregnant! I have a nice little happy "No Baby Month" dance everytime my wonderful period comes. Yeah, this no birth control needed situation takes some mental adjustment. TMI - the best part about the mister's vasectomy is that you can actually feel the ends of the vas deferens, so he can just check them to make sure they haven't grown back together. Which isn't something that I am consciously worried about, but it's nice when my period is a day or so late to be able to ask, "Honey, are you still sterile?" and have physical proof right at hand...

And now that I've talked about his sack, didja check out the pics I posted in Say Cheese of me and the hubby at the marriage factory? He's cute, is all...

And, I bought and read "We Need To Talk About Kevin" by Lionel Shriver and it freaked me right the hell out. That's like my nightmare scenario right there. Getting trapped into this rigid role of Mother, held accountable by EVERYone for every single thing my child does or says, the Father corollary of that equation having a much sunnier time while actively blaming Mother for the kid's issues, as though he had no hand in any of it. I couldn't take the constant pressure from all sides that motherhood seems to invite...and then if my kid was born a sociopath and then went on a killing spree...man...

Anyway, interesting read

sybarite
Lucizoe (not following you, honest!): I so agree with you about We Need to Talk About Kevin. The way the couple divided into shrill mom and chilled playing-in-the-backyard only dad roles freaked me right out. My only complaint is that the psychopathic aspect of the child made it too easy for us to sympathise with this mother of a monster. How much more interesting if Kevin was a normal, or maybe slightly hyper kid... and she still had these responses??

Anyway. Something I was mulling over. /literary derail
ginger_kitty
Even though I take my bc religously, I still get nervous if I am late. Every month, I am like yay!!! my period came, wooohoooo!!

This guy that is supposed to be my friend had a baby a few years ago and it's totally changed him. He never wanted kids, now he is all kids are the greatest thing in the world. The other day he was telling me I should have a kid b/c it would give my life purpose. (@sshole!!!) Anyway I told him I thought it was pathetic when people believe having a kid is thier sole purpose in life, people are capable of so much more. I think it's just a misery loves company thing...we had been catching up and stuff. My hubby and I have been doing a lot and his wife and him are stuck at home with the kid almost all of time and it's really strained thier budget. But he acted so wierd, I have known him for years and it was like I was talking to a stranger. We both used to talk about never wanting kids, until his wife got pregnant. I think I am going to write him off as another friend I have grown out of. I get sick of him pressuring me to have kids everytime we talk.....
pollystyrene
There's a nice article in the latest issue of Bust about the childfree movement...in fact, and I could be wrong about this, but I think one of our own was interviewed for it, out of her Bustie name. I won't say who in case she wants to remain anonymous, but great quote!
turbojenn
polly - I love your new avvie slogan!!!

I've had the new BUST lying around the house but haven't read it yet - I'll have to take a look at that this week. My magazine queue is getting a little out of control at the moment.
pollystyrene
Thanks Turbo- I'm waiting for my new avatar that goes with it to appear. I can't figure it out! I posted about it in the "Having problems with our website" thread. Grr.
mouse
*delurks*

there's also an article a couple issues back in "bitch"--this issue.

*goes back to lurking*
katiebelle2882
very very interesting article. here is the excerpt i read and thought of you guys:

Our genes hardwire us to reproduce, but children have a small negative effect on happiness, research shows. If you're a parent reading this, you're most likely shaking your head. But Gilbert said the findings are clear when parents are asked about their level of happiness in the moment.

"When you follow people throughout their days, as they're going about their normal activities, people are about as happy interacting with their children, on average, as when they're doing housework. They're much less happy than when they're exercising, sleeping, grocery shopping, hanging out with friends," Gilbert said. "Now, that doesn't mean they don't occasionally create these transcendent moments of joy that we remember as filling our days with happiness."

here is the rest

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/conditions/...view/index.html
girlygirlgag
I totally agree with that article. I love my little step kiddies, but man, they can be a real pain in the ass. I know that the Mr is not 100% happy when we are hanging out with them too. NOt that we love them any less, but kids are HARD and can DRIVE YOU CRAZY, which really doesn't make you happy.

Those valiumed out moms who talk about how happy they are all the time are lying. IT is hard to be truthful and say, "MY NEWBORN IS NOT SLEEPING AND I FEEL LIKE JUMPING OFF OF A BRIDGE, PLEASE GET THIS KID AWAY FROM ME" "OR MY FOUR YEAR OLD KEEPS FOLLOWING ME AROUND THE HOUSE ASKING ME QUESTIONS AND I JUST WANT TO CLEAN!~!!~UIO~!Y~@(~*T&P^@(P#~03

Parents are tough on themselves and they think being that honest will make people think they are bad parents.
katiebelle2882
100% agree GGG-and you speak from complete experience. love and like are NOT the same thing! people have a hard time realizing that when it comes to children i think
morgue_rat
QUOTE(katiebelle2882 @ Nov 16 2006, 03:48 PM) *

very very interesting article. here is the excerpt i read and thought of you guys:

Our genes hardwire us to reproduce, but children have a small negative effect on happiness, research shows. If you're a parent reading this, you're most likely shaking your head. But Gilbert said the findings are clear when parents are asked about their level of happiness in the moment.

"When you follow people throughout their days, as they're going about their normal activities, people are about as happy interacting with their children, on average, as when they're doing housework. They're much less happy than when they're exercising, sleeping, grocery shopping, hanging out with friends," Gilbert said. "Now, that doesn't mean they don't occasionally create these transcendent moments of joy that we remember as filling our days with happiness."

here is the rest

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/conditions/...view/index.html



I read in my Human Sexuality textbook that, on average, childless couples are happier, and have less debt and less stress. I also learned that relationships which were the most tumultuous pre-child would be the worst post-child. In short, if something's broke, a kid ain't gonna fix it! (you're just going to stay in an unhappy relationship longer)

QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Nov 16 2006, 05:09 PM) *

IT is hard to be truthful and say, "MY NEWBORN IS NOT SLEEPING AND I FEEL LIKE JUMPING OFF OF A BRIDGE, PLEASE GET THIS KID AWAY FROM ME" "OR MY FOUR YEAR OLD KEEPS FOLLOWING ME AROUND THE HOUSE ASKING ME QUESTIONS AND I JUST WANT TO CLEAN!~!!~UIO~!Y~@(~*T&P^@(P#~03

Parents are tough on themselves and they think being that honest will make people think they are bad parents.


Right. My friend, who kept an accidental pregnancy, wasn't able to call me until two weeks after her son's birth. She said she cried without stopping for a couple weeks straight and confided, "I can see why people shake babies. You love them because they come out of your own body, but still..."

Fortunately, he's easier at two months now and (goddammit) is adorable.
pollystyrene
Absolutely, morgue rat- I used to babysit for my friend's kid once in awhile so she could have an evening out with her boyfriend/father of the child, and before that, I always thought, "How much could a baby cry that would drive someone to shake them?" Oh, did I found out. Of course, I never, ever did it, and never, ever would, but actually having to deal with a kid crying that much makes you understand what makes a person with a poor parenting skills, lack of a support system, or other stress in their life get to that point and snap.

I was looking forward to a childfree evening at my in-law's house, but when we got there, turns out they were babysitting Le Boy's 9-month-old nephew. Fortunately, he was pretty quiet all night and is so much cuter now that his hair is coming in. He's one of those kids that just wasn't that cute as an infant (even Grandma alluded to it tonight- "he never smiled for the first three months!") but he's much cuter and smiley now. And then I got to go home without him- that's the best part!
katiebelle2882
It's just sad to me that people are happier GROCERY shopping then hanging with their children. just goes to show you that if we didnt have a biological drive to reproduce, i dont think many people would. what an odd trick of whoever is up there.
girlygirlgag
I am happier grocery shopping by myself than with the kids, because the thought of herding a 4 and a 6 year old, (with help from MrGGG) around the PACKED store, makes me want to throw canned food at my own head.

Places where it is more fun to have the kids with you:
The park
The zoo
The swimming pool
On a nature walk, etc.
In the morning when you wake up and have cuddle time. (though not at first when you are dreaming about a lovely swim in a clear blue ocean, and 40 lbs of hyper jumps on your stomach)

But, when you are trying to get things doen, it can be a nightmare.
katiebelle2882
well i think he meant people are happier in general when grocery shopping then when playing with the kids at all. lol. i could be wrong though. i agree GGG shopping with kids, hell no.
humanist77
Hehe! I'm a failure of our species!
deschatsrouge
OTT but oh well,

I live in HELL!!!! you know how I was complaining about people bringing thier kids to thier college classes with them, well, one of my PROFESSORS did it just before Thanksgiving break!!! GAWD DAMN IT!!! It must be the culture of where I live, there just is no other explanation. WTF!!! Do these women have no brains??? did they push their brains out of their uterus as they gave birth?! GAAAAAAA!!!!!

OK, I feel better now.

Continue.
ratgrl
QUOTE(deschatsrouge @ Nov 23 2006, 07:29 AM) *

OTT but oh well,

I live in HELL!!!! you know how I was complaining about people bringing thier kids to thier college classes with them, well, one of my PROFESSORS did it just before Thanksgiving break!!! GAWD DAMN IT!!! It must be the culture of where I live, there just is no other explanation. WTF!!! Do these women have no brains??? did they push their brains out of their uterus as they gave birth?! GAAAAAAA!!!!!

OK, I fell better now.

Continue.



Oh, Dechat, I've got a story you'll LOVE! My sister--a professor at a U.S. university--had her first kid 10 years ago. She took a 2-3 month maternity leave, and then arranged accordingly for daycare once she returned to teaching. But, for some reason, she once brought the baby in for an department-wide meeting; I guess she wanted all her colleagues to see her new baby. So she held the kid on her lap, the meeting was going on--when suddenly, the kid filled her pants. And from the way my sister described it to me, it was a huge, loud, stinky dump which couldn't be ignored by anyone and, I'm sure, disrupted the meeting somewhat. And that's a perfect example of why kids don't belong in the workplace, IMO.

At my job, there've been a couple of times when co-workers brought their screaming babies/toddlers to training meetings. Why they would even do this is beyond me. In both cases, I complained about it afterward to my supervisor, and even asked if I could bring my dog to future meetings. He'd certainly behave better than those brats did! Sheesh.
pho#1
i can't stand it when people drag their kids out to parties when they obviously need to be in bed dry.gif

the last time i hosted a clothing swap and asked for people to not bring kids 2 people brought their toddlers. then they of course were distracted, leaving the kids to get into my shit, break houseplants etc. i couldn't relax the whole time cause i had to watch them!! unsure.gif
i don't want to seem all uptight and mean about it so i just don't host parties at my house anymore.
i know not all parents are like this but geez. you choose to have 'em, you look after 'em.
end of rant. smile.gif
ratgrl
A long time ago, my parents recounted to me what they obviously thought was a charming and amusing anecdote about my behavior as a toddler. I have no memory whatsoever of the event, but apparently when I was 2 or 3 years old, they took me to a party thrown by some of my dad's academic colleagues--so I guess most of the guests were professors and grad students. Whether kids had actually been invited or not, I don't know. Whatever the case, my parents brought me along, and I proceeded to spend the entire time standing at the food table, repeatedly dipping my finger in the dip bowl and saying "dip" each and every time I did it! When my parents told me about this (I think I was a teenager when I heard about it) I cringed, as I could only imagine what the hosts and other guests must have thought of my behavior, and of the fact that my parents were busy partying and couldn't be bothered to keep me under control. They were probably wishing they could shoot my parents; I know I'd feel that way in a similar situation.

I mean, parties where kids are expressly included and there are provisions for someone to watch over them--fine. Cocktail/dinner parties that are meant for adults where some thoughtless guests bring their (not-invited) kids--not so much.
pho#1
haha, yes, cringeworthy story.

and i totally agree, most of the time i enjoy my friends' kids but it's great for our sanity to have an adults only social event once in a while!
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