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lucizoe
Hey treehugger - he's fine; still a little sore, but not swollen or anything. He's not used to being taken care of and it's like pulling teeth to get him to let me get stuff for him. And he's humoring me by continuing to ice his, um, junk.

He's working from home today and so we're having a totally slothy day...on the couch and listening to Stephanie Miller (who just read something about a list of rules Tom Cruise has for Katie's behavior around her own.fucking.baby. When will she be kidnapped and reprogrammed and that abusive asshole be locked up? Oh, wait. He's got money. Nevermind).
maddy29
congrats lucizoe!!!! that is so sexy that he got snipped, damn! very hot:-)
msgoofball
yes congrats! (((healing vibes for mr. luci))))
atarrill
Doodle, I'm also going through the "who do I leave my stuff to?" situation. I value these things and want someone to have them who will care for them. I have a lot of family on my mother's side, but no one I'm close to on my dad's and most are older than me anyway (his family is dying out, not many left).

Of course, I'm still thinking to adopt a young person one day, perhaps just so I can pass everything on to him/her. Otherwise I picture all the younger generations being extraordinarily nice to me in hopes of being named in my will. I've read too much Dickens!
doodlebug
Just wanted to wish a Happy Childfree Day to all of us who are NOT mothers, by our own choice. YAY US!

I am having an entire weekend ALL to myself, and enjoying the hell out of it! I'm so happy to not be a mother today!

I did call my mama, tho'.
turbojenn
HA! You are so right, doodle! We should be celebrating!

I decided to make chocolate chip cookies for breakfast because I'm a grown up and I can! And then decided not to cook dinner and have popcorn instead. Awesome!

At the grocery this morning, they gave a 10% discount to all moms, which I thought was really great. Unfortunately, having a dog did not qualify. I did get turbo some special treats though, 'cause he deserves them, my beautiful pupper.

And I talked to my mama today too...she's a good 'un.
cloverbee
yay congrats all you childfree busties!!!
the little kids across the street wrote all over my car w/ white-out pens and I had to go over and threaten them w/ calling the police. they got in trouble w/ their parents! serves 'em right!
lucizoe
...and the parents are paying to clean it, right?

is this the same woman who was trying to use you as a free babysitter? ick!

it was kind of nice yesterday; mr.luci and I unfortunately had to go to Bed Bath and Beyond...whilst there we were offered help numerous times and were always released back into wandering the store blindly with "...and if you're a mother, happy mother's day." Yay! an "if"! no assumptions!
cloverbee
they came over and formally apologized and offered to clean my car. I feel better.
I'm glad mother's day is over.
ginger_kitty
What bratty kids, clover. At least they cleaned it out.

Childfree Day, Yay!!! I am late on that but we should celebrate annually! or Daily!
katiebelle2882
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/15/AR2006051500875_ pf.html

um, is anyone else disturbed by this?
turbojenn
thank you for posting that katiebelle...what a bunch of fucked up nonsense. So I'm 'preconceptionally healthy', eh? No thank you, Big Brother, I'll just go get sterilized now, thank you, rather than be thought of as a preconceiver. Ugh.

Or maybe I'll move in with doodle in canada.....they seem more sensible up there.
msgoofball
what a bunch of crock!??! that just makes me want to get my IUD faster...
msgoofball
what a bunch of crock!??! that just makes me want to get my IUD faster...
msgoofball
what a bunch of crock!??! that just makes me want to get my IUD faster...
msgoofball
sorry..my bad...triple taco.
rainarana
Oh yeah, I'm a baby making machine. . .

Reason number 5005, why I don't want kids. It was confirmed today that I have a herniated cervical disc. There is no way in HELL I would be capable of running after kids in this condition. Hell, some days I'm lucky I can take care of myself. . .
doodlebug
It is pretty disturbing. Although I do support a more holistic approach to health care that includes taking into account our personal histories and goals, it creeps me out that they are collecting this info. How is this going to affect women's ability to get health insurance in the U.S.? And also, there is the fact that your gov't is collecting people's private data. Not to mention the problem of focusing on the potential for pregnancy, as opposed to looking at reproductive health in its entirety...it completely creeps me out, and it's got dangerous potential, if more states follow in the footsteps of South Dakota. Not to mention...as if 1) pregnancy is the most important health issue facing women, and 2) it's anyone's goddamned business what we plan to do with our bodies anyway!! If I want to snort Ajax, smoke banana leaves, and bungee jump off bridges, it's nobody's effing business. Besides, aren't they now finding that the health of men's sperm has a serious impact on the health of a child? You can sure bet we'll never see anyone promoting the treatment of all men as pre-impregnators.

I wish they'd expend even a quarter as much energy asking questions about women's history of being abused, which can have far more lasting consequences on a woman's physical, mental, emotional, and sexual health than a pregnancy.

I wouldn't hold out for a move to Canada, though. We have no idea what our new Conservative government is going to get up to. They're being kind of quiet now, because they're still in a position where a snap election could be called...but the longer they are in, the more secure their tenure, and then Canadian women everywhere could be S.O.L.
lucizoe
add this to the legislation designed to take away coverage for mammograms and pap smears and birth control and every day I wake up wondering if the Christian Fundie Coup has taken place and we've been renamed the Republic of Gilead...

*headdesk*

*and again*

*three times to shake free the idea that I am anything other than a potential fetii incubator*

that's better! off to make babies!

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think that my decision to be childfree might be more political than I realize. Of course, on paper, it's just a smart genetic choice, but I am helping fly in the face of stereotypes everywhere.

Now, to find some way to kill my uterus...dum dee dum dee dum...
pollystyrene
I know, one step closer to The Handmaid's Tale.

Shouldn't you be getting enough folic acid regardless of whether or not you plan on being pregnant?

Gah, I'm so sick of all these underhanded moves by the government to propagate having kids and inch towards taking away abortion rights. "if we just chip away at it, bit by bit, maybe those pesky baby-hatin' feminists won't notice!"
ginger_kitty
preconception health? WTF! What about just general female health, like polly mentioned?

I don't want to be considered healthy breeding stock. I'd rather just be a health conscience female.

Soon those of us that choose not to have children, or are unable to have children, will be forced to wear big red "CL"s "B"s on our chests so people know we are childless and barren and avoid us in public.
turbojenn
I just don't get it. Ideology is one thing, but you'd think at some point the economics of children would settle in up top, and politicians of all flavors would get with the sex ed, having kids when they are planned program...but no. We live in no world so sensible as that.
treehugger
Oh, my god. working on the refrigeration crew has it's negatives. One being unable to bust during the day.

Preconception health. Kewl. So we ARE just walking wombs, eh?

Lucizoe, the most political action I EVER did was having that tubal. South Dakota prompted it, this just confirms it. We don't need to be breeding stock!

Grrrrr....

Already I've read about women being denied jobs in hazardous chemical areas, not because they're women but "because of the potential future risk to a fetus either now or ten years from now". Ugh.

I suppose you're going to have to provide proof of sterility or else they're going to call you into the clinic once a week so you can get your folic acid supplement.

I guess my new name will be Ofbrad.
doodlebug
Imagine what the feds could accomplish if they put the same energy into preventing unwanted pregnancies.

I keep adding up all the things that governments in the U.S. have done around reproductive issues. I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist (nobody wants to sound like nohope here!), but I actually think this is all PART of their economic plan.

The younger you are and/or the less education you have and/or the poorer you are, the more likely you are to become accidentally pregnant, whether through lack of information about options (cuts to, and censoring of, education programs), or inability to afford the options. And those options that ARE available are slowly being picked off. Good luck getting an abortion...even if it's not restricted or illegal where you are, it may be out of reach because you are young or can't afford it. You can't get emergency contraception if you don't know about it - and what if you can't afford it, or you can't get it without your parents finding out? What if you can't even get birth control without your parents finding out?

The young/uneducated/poor end up having more kids than other citizens, which perpetuates the cycle of poverty....which all leads to a bigger and bigger impoverished underclass. The bigger the underclass gets, the more the middle class is frightened into clinging to what they have, looking out for themselves...and those that have still managed to speak out for the poor will be pushed further into silence and isolation, until no one from the middle class is left speaking. And who listens to the poor? The poor are often too busy struggling to survive to speak up, anyway.

Ergo, without opposition, the right-wingers get to go ahead and do what they want, buying up what's left of the free world and devastating the parts they already own...and with a ready-made servant class from all the unplanned pregnancies.

IMHO, anyway.
misspissed
a most scary conspiracy, doodle. yet it rings true.

while that article bought up good health practices (smoking is bad for EVERYONE's health, and if you are diabetic/asthmatic, you should control it) BUT to cloak it in the guise of "pre-pregnancy" is bullshit.

lately, i have been so happy that i am entering my 30s in a matter of months...my fertility is sharply declining! :-)
lucizoe
Oh, sweet merciful christ on a fucking cracker, doodlebug. Ruin my night, why don't you? You don't sound at all like a conspiracy theorist; more of a historian and seer.

*ginormous sigh*

cloverbee
Why oh why do we care so much about children but when they grow up people couldn't care less about them?? What is this obsession w/ children? I think Doodle had it right in her second to last post about the men not getting tested. Right on.
sybarite
In 'We Need to Talk About Kevin' Lionel Shriver's main character, who is deeply ambivalent about having kids, makes the point that she and her husband are two-time losers: when they were kids, they were told to put up and shut up; now that they were parents their lives revolve around the kid.

I read that article in another thread and got insanely pissed off. And all this vigilance on a federal level no less; they're not risking leaving it up to individual states.

I too am increasingly thinking that not sprogging up is a political decision as much as a personal preference... all of which is hardening my resolve. Hooray!
pollystyrene
This was in today's Savage Love (if you're not familiar, it's a raunchy, somewhat tongue-in-cheek sex advice column, written by Dan Savage, a gay guy.)

STRAIGHT RIGHTS UPDATE: I've been running around with my hair on fire trying to convince my straight readers that religious conservatives don't just hate homos. Their attacks on gay people, relationships, parents, and sex get all the press, but the American Taliban has an anti-straight-rights agenda too. As I wrote on March 23: "The GOP's message to straight Americans: If you have sex, we want it to fuck up your lives as much as possible. No birth control, no emergency contraception, no abortion services, no lifesaving vaccines. If you get pregnant, tough shit. You're going to have those babies, ladies, and you're going to make those child-support payments, gentlemen. And if you get HPV and it leads to cervical cancer, well, that's too bad. Have a nice funeral, slut."

After raising the alarm for months back here in the sex-ads section, I was intensely gratified to read Russell Shorto's brilliant cover story, "The War On Contraception," in the New York Times Magazine last weekend. To readers who think I'm being hysterical: So you don't think the religious right would seriously go after birth control? Fine, don't believe me. But maybe you'll believe Shorto when he lays out the American Taliban's plan to deny access to birth control—any and all types, folks, not just emergency contraception.

"In particular, and not to put too fine a point on it, they want to change the way Americans have sex," Shorto writes. "Contraception, by [their] logic," Shorto continues, "encourages sexual promiscuity, sexual deviance (like homosexuality), and a preoccupation with sex that is unhealthful even within marriage." Shorto quotes Judie Brown, president of the American Life League: "We see a direct connection between the practice of contraception and the practice of abortion. The mind-set that invites a couple to use contraception is an antichild mind-set. So when a baby is conceived accidentally, the couple already have this negative attitude toward the child. Therefore seeking an abortion is a natural outcome. We oppose all forms of contraception." And there's this from R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary: "I cannot imagine any development in human history, after the Fall, that has had a greater impact on human beings than the pill… Prior to it, every time a couple had sex, there was a good chance of pregnancy. Once that is removed, the entire horizon of the sexual act changes. I think there could be no question that the pill gave incredible license to everything from adultery and affairs to premarital sex and within marriage to a separation of the sex act and procreation."

I'll say it again, breeders: The American Taliban is not just opposed to straight premarital sex, with their abstinence education and hilariously ineffective virginity pledges, or gay sex, with their "ex-gay" campaigns and their anti-gay-marriage amendments. The American Taliban doesn't think married heterosexual couples should be able to use birth control. If you care about your own freedom—not just your right to have premarital sex, but your right to decide whether, when, and how many children you're going to have—you need to read "The War On Contraception." And don't comfort yourself with the notion that these are just some anti-sex religious wackos: The Bush administration not only listens to these wackos, it appoints them to important positions all over the federal government—and let's not even think about the members of the American Taliban that Bush has already appointed to lifetime positions in the federal judiciary.

This is some serious shit, breeders. You're being attacked. It's time to fight back.

ETA: lol, doodle: "nobody wants to sound like nohope here!" Oh, don't mention it- all we need is to have our little thread hijacked by that guy! I don't think he's a bad guy, he just tends to comandeer threads!

And you're right cloverbee- no one cares about really cares about kids once they're past the, not even grown-up, but past the "cute baby, perfect for an anti-choice poster" stage. They cut education spending, they cut funding to social services that [tries to] protect kids from abusive and neglectful parents, they cut funding for college so they'll have no choice but to join the military and die for Bush's cause.

Can anyone find a link to this NY Times article online?
turbojenn
Yeah, the choice not to have children does feel more political by the day....which is really sad, quite frankly, that choose the life *I* want is political. Land of the free, home of the brave and all that horseshit...

I'm thinking more and more about at least taking the step of an IUD...tubal still scares m e a teensy bit, and I don't think I'm ready for that, but maybe and IUD, and maybe that would stop the nasty hormonal withdrawl migraines I get from BCP.

I do still have hope that in 2008, we get to turn things around...the wingers have made such a mess, with the right candidate, I think we've got a good shot at retaking the house and senate, and the presidency....and then the real work begins.
lucizoe
Original study

To be fair, it seems the Post itself decided to use the charming term of "pre-pregnant," although "preconception" features heavily in the study, so I don't really see much of a difference, personally.

Someone on the livejournal childfree community pointed this out, but the implications of, you know, out and out creepiness still abound.

Oh, man, polly...I lurve dan savage, even if he is completely repulsed by girly parts and in the past has said some pretty offensive things about them. He still makes me giggle.

My question is, what do we do? I mean, seriously? Short of actually staging a coup...we already donate to Planned Parenthood and NARAL, vote progressively, protest...but what can one do against complete fascism and compromised voting? Given tactics deployed against peaceful protestors, I wouldn't put it past these people to surreptitiously help arm some christian fundies and encourage them to physically attack people assembled to demand our rights...

(Of course, I am also one of those crazy conspiracy theorists who not only thinks they (neocons) have stolen elections since 2000 and will only continue to do so, but also believe they had prior knowledge of if not an actual hand in the events of 9/11, among a zillion other things. Sideaffect of living in America - total paranoia...down with religion!)

excuse the ramble
msgoofball
"I suppose you're going to have to provide proof of sterility or else they're going to call you into the clinic once a week so you can get your folic acid supplement." bwahahaha...now thats funny.

last nite i was talking to mr. gb about the article,(which he wants a copy of, btw) and i was going off...i mean,(and he was softly agreeing to avoid getting yelled AT)(hehe) about why is it that just the women have to be checked and healthy and all that crap...? what about the men? doesn't drinking have an affect on their sperm count or fertility? what about smoking? their weight? all those kinds of factors...i mean, it takes two to tango even if its IVF. So where's the article on that?!?! ok just my two cents.
cloverbee
lucizoe, you are not alone in thinking that 9/11 was forseen and maybe staged.
thank you polly for posting that story, that was very enlightening and scary as hell.
On a personal note, I would probably have two or three abortions today if it were not for emergency contraception. But I was fortunate enough to buddy up w/ the planned parenthood services in a town 45 minutes away from me. I sought them out and had to drive as far to receive the pills. I am forever grateful to those people.
katiebelle2882
sometimes i really dislike this country
crazyoldcatlady
*delurks*

that washington post article reminds me of the database/big brother set-up for those taking accutane.

i also shuddered to see the name of an institution i am affiliated with in that article.

AND, if they're so up on women's health/pre-pregnancy care, i wonder if they'd add the HPV vaccine to their regimen. methinks no, which would be hypocritical in a weird, bizarro way...
katiebelle2882
oh, TOTALLY off thread topic but if anyone IS interested in what luci has to say about 9/11 (bc i agree with her as well) heres a really informative link. albeit very disturbing

http://www.letsroll911.org/

we are living in some seriously dangerous times. in so many ways, i feel like its even more sinister and subversive bc our goverment maintains a facade of normalcy, democracy, and freedom. thats what makes it SO much scarier for me.
lucizoe
...oh, I lurve my other conspiracy BUSTies so much

Lurve!

(since we are pre-pregnant, can we have pre-baby showers and get lots of free stuff? I'm going to register at the liquor store, Mood Fabrics and a tattoo studio. In lieu of gifts, donate to the Humane Society or adopt a furbaby. Hmmmmm. If I had friends, I'd throw myself this party).
katiebelle2882
hahahaha pre baby showers. greatest idea EVER. invite all those annoying mothers we know. "congratulations on being pregnant"...."well i am not pregnant yet but since i am a walking womb we might as well celebrate that fact with lots of presents!!!" I would ask for a contribution towards getting my tubes tied.
maddy29
OT- my friend says if she isn't married by 40 (which is fine with her), she's throwing herself a huge ass bday party and is registering and dressing up and everything. I think I'm doing this too, cause I don't want the marriage, but it's so unfair that i won't get the presents! Especially when I have to bu y them for other people!
doodlebug
Aw, jeebus, katie. Now why'dya hafta go and post that? I just looked at the clock and realized I've frittered away almost TWO HOURS on that website!!! I'm so totally perturbed, now, too.

This world is now officially too bizarre a place in which to raise a child.

As to the question of "what to do"...just keep doing what y'all are doing, and make sure you expend your limited energies and resources in the most strategic ways you can think of. I know that being an activist and doing political things like donating and protesting sometimes seems futile....but a friend and fellow activist once explained it in terms that really helped me. She said that maybe our purpose here, for now, is to simply hold back the tide. She said just imagine how much worse things would be if no one was speaking up or fighting back at all.

It's a pretty common understanding within the global women's movement that we are about 400 years away from achieving real gender equality. (Don't forget - it took women almost 5,000 years to be "allowed" merely to own property again!) I was stunned when I learned that number, but it's another thing that helps me put my work in perspective - not only to remind me that my work IS forwarding this slow-moving agenda, but also to remind me that I can only do so much, and that working myself into a heart attack isn't going to help me achieve much more than I'm already achieving!!

So even though it's all very frustrating, I think it's important to put the actions we take into the context of the "bigger picture"...what we are doing today not only "holds back the tide" from things being even worse than they are, but protects future women from having to fight against those worse things that could have happened if we weren't fighting now.
katiebelle2882
ha ha doodlebug....sorry. I did the same thing yesterday. and not only do you waste time, but you get yourself all pissy as well. it sucks.

400 years. good lord. thats such a big number, i almost want to crawl into a hole and give up. or just move to bora bora and live in a tent on the beach. but i wont!
turbojenn
doodle, I love that your share your wisdom, struggle, and encouragement here. It is important that we all keep holding the light, and spreading positive energy and progressive ideas.

And to add something light, and hopeful today, Chicago is the first/only city in the country to have a *real* sex ed program in all schools, for all children from 6th grade on up....taught exclusively by planned parenthood! Even cooler, is that because of our org's affiliation with them, we're going to go along on some of the presentations too! I've been to a few of the sexuality in schools task force meetings, and its going to be a very good program. So at least half a million kids will be getting real information starting in the fall....
cloverbee
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12835020/?GT1=8199

OMG
katiebelle2882
yup totally saw that earlier today. again WTF
msgoofball
i also saw that and was completely confused.....

"they must be related by blood, marriage or adoption"....um...if there are kids from two people, doesn't that count as blood relatives??? um...maybe i am too simple minded to see the law in this one. eeek......

but even if the kids were not his or hers, why would they want to break up a 'family'?!? over a stupid legal document!?!?!? I am sure some male(cuz i figure its a guy) thought "lets scar these children for life by making them homeless cuz their parents are living in sin." aaaagh. end rant.
ambercherry
i thought that, too, actually - the thing about the blood relatives. the whole thing is absurd.

(sorry, i lurk in this thread quite a bit - i am childfree, and thought i would be for a very long time (if not forever)...but i feel myself changing on the issue (and sometimes i have a difficult time with my changing attitude)).
lucizoe
ambercherry, I hope we don't see too condemning of women who DO want kids. It's perfectly okay to change your mind, if that's not the most patronizing thing I've ever typed. You know, in case you don't know that. :-)

I will cop to occasional pangs of wonder when I see women with newborns wrapped across their chests...and I used to be really into educating myself about pregnancy and breastfeeding, the whole shebang. It's not always cut-and-dried.

For myself, it is a very dark grey decision, mostly black with some white. When it comes down to the pros and cons list, the cons win hands-down. I do have a big maternal push for all things four-legged; show me a news story about animals in distress and I freak out. But show humans in the same situation and it just doesn't affect me the same way. I know I would be a good mom, but I also know that in becoming a good mom, I would completely lose sight of myself. Not to say that everyone who has children does that, but I am a perfectionist and once I had a child, my life would be all about making sure her life was as perfect as possible.

I think I would probably do a ton of projection onto a baby, because were I to have a child, I would lose so many opportunities that I have not even conceived of yet. So naturally, it would be up to her to make-up for what I couldn't do, and that is totally unfair to her.

I have depression and anxiety issues which I will always struggle with. This is a fact and I am just now accepting it, after about 20 freaking years. The potential for passing a similar childhood to the one I had onto someone who didn't ask for it makes me want to vomit. That, on top of the fact that I would then have a built-in source of constant worry for the rest.of.my.life. I wouldn't wish my illnesses on my worst ene- well, I dunno. It might be nice to see all the neocons squirm with indecision and internal pain and crippling anxiety...it would keep them from fucking with our lives.

When I am depressed and in very bad suicidal/SI places (which I haven't been for awhile and hopefully will never be again), I lose my temper easily. I have been known to literally physically beat myself up and I could shake a baby in anger, I know I could. It's better that I am not put in charge of one, alone, for a long period of time.

I also don't have the emotional resources. I cannot commit to both my Mister and a tiny interloper. I want to be first in his life as he is first in mine. There's no more room there, except for the cats and a future puppy.

Finally, I cannot fathom placing another being on this already overpopulated earth. There are too many unwanted, uncared for, malnourished, abused, raped, and murdered children in the world. I weep when I read environmental reports and have panic attacks about the destruction of forests to make room for more McMansions and gated communities. It's like I can hear the planet screaming and so few people care enough...

I think I would always feel guilty if I had a child, and I already feel bad enough that I'm here...

God, that was so much darker than I meant it to be...but I guess that's just who I am today. Captain Bring-Down!

I think you should be able to post (if you want to) about how you may be transitioning from childfree to 'maybe baby.' I know I would find it interesting.
raskel
I just read that article....My family would have been in a whole lot of trouble. I grew up with 4 parents, and 6 siblings, but technically speaking, I am an only child. That law would have split us all up.
atarrill
Ok, I just have to comment on the 911 conspiracy theory that says there was no Flight 93. My friend's uncle was on that flight. There WAS a Flight 93.

Now, back to childfree fun!

ambercherry
lucizoe, thanks, many of the latter reasons you mentioned are reasons that i want to remain childfree. and no, i haven't found any of you women too condemning of mothers or those who want kids. which is why i love lurking in here!

it is a difficult decision, and one that shouldn't be made lightly, in my opinion. two close friends of mine recently gave birth (one as recently as this past weekend), and watching them with their new bebes brings out the maternal-ness in me a little bit.

but, it's not the right time for me right now - i recently made a career change and have one more year left of studies. i am not totally financially stable - and i would want to be completely stable in career/finances/living situation as possible.

i have more thoughts...but i will continue later. right now - i will revel in my childlessness and have a glass of wine! (or two)
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