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candycane_girl
pointybird, I went to a wedding this weekend and so many people kept looking at me and saying "You're next!" I'm sure they were just teasing but as far as these people know I don't even have a bf (in my culture it's not something you advertise until it's 100% serious). I was just like, "Noooooooooo, I'm only 24!"

The one thing that made me happy this weekend is that none of my friends who are married with kids romanticized the situation. All of them admitted that they have to plan things with military style precision otherwise it all goes to hell. One of my friends just had a second baby who is about 7 weeks old. She told me that he had colic and would be crying for hours and hours and she said, "There were times that I didn't even want to look at him. I just wanted to go outside and scream." I'd much rather hear the truth than "Oh, it's wonderful and life changing and everything is perfect!"
thepointybird
God, it's so weird that you'd get that even though you're only 24!

It's kind of weird for me though because as I say, I am going to be 35 soon, but none of the life-goals that other people seem to have are of interest to me. I don't give a shit if I never own property, in fact the thought of being tied to something as huge as that is terrifying to me. So long as I have a roof over my head I'm happy, y'know? Also, marriage isn't important to me, I'd love to be happy and in love and have someone to be with, but I've never really wanted to be married because for me personally, it's not necessary. And of course, I don't want children under any circumstances. But these are all the boxes that we're meant to tick on our way through life. (It does get a bit frustrating at times, I really have no idea what I want from life, I only have a really long list of things that I don't want!) But it seems that to people who are ticking those boxes, the fact that I am not doing so is somehow a personal affront to them, like I'm somehow disapproving of their choices or something? Or is it just the fact that anything that goes against the norm is unnerving to people?
culturehandy
I think some people are slightly jealous that we aren't conforming. Maybe they wish they had made the same decisions. They could admire us for not making the choices that society says we should.

I'm sure there are people out there who are just horrified that there are some people who don't want to check off the boxes.

in a sort of related gripe, my step mother was asking if I was dating someone, because a cop I am fucking picked me up from work on Friday so he could get fucked! Well, I told her he was just a friend, then she said I wasn't getting any younger. Excuse me? I'm 26!!
thepointybird
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Sep 8 2009, 07:36 PM) *
my step mother was asking if I was dating someone, because a cop I am fucking picked me up from work on Friday so he could get fucked! Well, I told her he was just a friend, then she said I wasn't getting any younger. Excuse me? I'm 26!!



That expression annoys me more than any other. 8 day old babies aren't getting any younger!
missladyj
it freaks people out when they find out I've been married for 9yrs and don't have kids. Some people don't understand the point of getting married if you aren't going to have kids. Some people can't think outside the box.

My mother attempts to give me subtle hints like when she told me how she was at a resturant and saw a white woman and a black man who had a baby that was gorgeous and how all interracial babies are so beautiful ( my husband is black and I am a "nice" jewish girl) I just nodded and smiled. "Yes they are beautiful mother"

At work I had to hear about how wonderful it is to have your C-section scheduled , or how often someone has to get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby.


I have never been happier about my IUD.
thepointybird
QUOTE(missladyj @ Sep 13 2009, 12:51 PM) *
At work I had to hear about how wonderful it is to have your C-section scheduled , or how often someone has to get up in the middle of the night to feed the baby.


Are people seriously trying to tell you that C-Sections or being awoken by a screaming baby in the middle of the night are wonderful? blink.gif
candycane_girl
Has this person ever had a c-section before? Once again I am reminded of my honest friend who said that it hurt like hell and there were times she felt like she could barely walk.

I still don't understand people who push their values on others. If you want to have a baby that's fine, but why should other people do it just because you have. The people who are married and have kids shouldn't have to look far to find others like themselves.
culturehandy
totally OT: research is showing that scheduled csections can cause problems for baby down the road.

I fear to think what my step mothr would think if she knew I don't want kids. my mom and dad are both very supportive of it (surprising) I know they would like grandchildren, but they also have said that should I decide to have children it's for me, not for them.
thepointybird
Culture, I always read that it could only cause problems if it was done really early? Like at 35 weeks? Most of my friends who have kids have had C Sections, and none of these children has had any health problems whatsoever (although admittedly these were mostly emergency situations and this is anecdotal evidence!) I don't know, I'm wary of the way natural childbirth advocates push these views, it is always worded as being negative towards the doctors, but to me it seems that if you scratch the surface even slightly, it's just more judgment of women and they choices they make. The main reason for my not wanting kids is tokophobia, and this whole 'Too Posh to Push' notion annoys the crap out of me - doesn't it occur to anyone that these women are perhaps not too posh but actually just scared shitless of the pain and very real risks associated with vaginal birth?
culturehandy
After some searching, I see that it is if the doctor does the scheduled csection one week early, for some reason that makes a huge difference in some cases. The information was only in it's very early stages, as the doctors acknowledged.
candycane_girl
I'm sorry but if a woman is afraid to have a natural vaginal birth then she shouldn't be getting pregnant in the first place. Everyone knows that there is a ton of pain involved in child birth. There are risks associated with vaginal birth but I still think that c-sections should only be done when truly necessary.
thepointybird
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's one thing to say everyone knows it's going to hurt. But I can't judge someone who is so terrified of vaginal birth that they decided to go Caesarian, because, frankly, if I ever found myself in that situation, it's absolutely what I would do. I do not feel any great fear about surgery of any kind. I would of course be worried and fretful if I knew I had to have surgery. But vaginal birth? What I feel about that is absolute, paralyzing, extreme terror.
candycane_girl
Yes, but you don't plan on getting pregnant, right? (please correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's one thing to know that you are afraid of vaginal birth, to not want children and to use birth control to prevent getting pregnant. If someone is in that boat but they get pregnant by accident and don't believe in abortion, then okay, I can see having a c-section. But I can't imagine a woman who really wants to have children but doesn't want to give birth vaginally. It's not a great analogy but it's like saying you want to be a doctor but don't want to go to med school. I really believe that c-sections should only be used in emergency situations.
thepointybird
Yeah, I'm deffo not getting pregnant! But then all the stuff that comes after giving birth is as appalling a thought to me as vaginal childbirth is! I guess what I'm trying to say is that for women who really do want to be mothers, I don't necessarily think they should be denied that because they're terrified of vaginal birth. Victoria Beckham, for example, strikes me as being a pretty devoted mother, but as far as I am aware, she had all her kids by scheduled Caesarian. I think it's probably still pretty rare that women choose this method, and I know there are problems with Doctors pushing Caesarian births on women, especially in the US, but I think if you've weighed up all the pros and cons and it feels like the best thing for you, I can't really see why not?
missladyj
So two more couples at work are pregnant. The way they tell everyone is by bringing in donuts and making a cute little sign about having a kid.

At lunch a coworker asked me when they would be celebrated my pregnancy.

I was about to say we can celebrate my IUD but then said

" We can celebrate my infertility!"

He shut up after that.
thepointybird
Brilliant answer, missladyj!
deschatsrouge
QUOTE(missladyj @ Sep 17 2009, 10:35 PM) *
" We can celebrate my infertility!"


I am so using that.
missladyj
thanks pointy!

des,
feel free to use it often.
pollystyrene
An unfortunate IVF situation.

It's an awful story and all, and there's lots of other issues it raises, but I don't get why some people who do IVF don't have the forethought to consider what they're going to do with the frozen embryos they created, especially people with religious beliefs that would conflict with destroying them. They knew they could only use one of them...what were they thinking of doing with the leftovers?

My cousin got pregnant with IVF a few years ago and she and her husband still have several frozen embryos. She's a molecular biologist, though, and is considering donating them for stem cell research, which I think is really noble and enlightened of her.

Man, I hope the clinic that screwed up is paying for the surrogate to have her kid. And why did the doctor call her husband and tell him the news over the phone? Couldn't even bring them into the office to do it in person or at least call the woman herself? Spineless weasel.
candycane_girl
I think this is an example of selfishness once again. The couple had two children naturally and there were a lot of complications with the second one (considering he was born 10 weeks premature). Why would they insist on having more children? Personally, I think they should be grateful just to have two children who ended up healthy. But that's just my opinion.
pollystyrene
Three, three children, cc-girl! With the non-biological 4th on the way and the re-do of the oops in the works with the surrogate.

Seriously, if you're too religious to let go of some frozen embryos, why is it okay to eff around with the fact that your god doesn't want you to have more kids?
candycane_girl
Oh, I just meant that the first two were conceived naturally. The third one was conceived with IVF, right? Also I completely second what you said. I don't believe in people who are all "it's god's will!" when it comes to the other embryos. If they really believed in "god's will" so strongly then they wouldn't have gone through with IVF.
thepointybird
I've just spent a weekend with friends in Scotland. One has a 5yo daughter and one has a 10 month old baby girl. It has just completely reiterated to me how much I do not want children. The 5yo is cute and well-behaved (for most of the time - there were a few foot-stomping tantrum incidents!), but the need to constantly feign an interest in the stuff she's interested in is so draining. I cannot imagine having to do that day in day out for years. The baby was fine as babies go, but, y'know, babies are just pretty dull, and the amount of nappy changing and wiping up of drool and whatnot, it's just... not for me. In short, children mostly seem to be deeply tedious and looking after them seems to be a constant succession of chores.
culturehandy
I realized yesterday that if I were a parent, I'd doubt my abilities. i also realized that I'd not be a good parent, I can't stand the dog sometimes, and I love her with all of me. I am ashamed to admit this, but I am sure I'd be a neglectful parent whose child would grow up and end up hating me.

BUT at least I'm not having kids. It'd be far worse if I had kids and felt this way.
deschatsrouge
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Sep 30 2009, 12:19 PM) *
I realized yesterday that if I were a parent, I'd doubt my abilities. i also realized that I'd not be a good parent, I can't stand the dog sometimes, and I love her with all of me. I am ashamed to admit this, but I am sure I'd be a neglectful parent whose child would grow up and end up hating me.

BUT at least I'm not having kids. It'd be far worse if I had kids and felt this way.


I feel the same way. I think I would be neglectful. I think I would be to mean too. I was raised in an authoritarian parenting style and I know that I would treat my kids the same way. I would be very unfair to children, they would receive a punishment not suited to their crime. I don't have the presence of mind to be aware of this. They would end up hating me for being mean and not liking them.
treehugger
Yep, I feel the same way. I do not have the patience to care for a child. I think I would end up being neglectful too. Every time I go to a family reunion and see parents of young children and watch the tedious interacting....."ooh, johnny, your booger was really THAT big??? No, no, no, we don't eat them Johnny. C'mere, wash your hands. Johnny!!! I said, you need to wash your hands! That isn't funny! You wait till your father comes home!"

ad infinitum....
misscolleen42
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Sep 15 2009, 09:53 AM) *
Has this person ever had a c-section before? Once again I am reminded of my honest friend who said that it hurt like hell and there were times she felt like she could barely walk.

I still don't understand people who push their values on others. If you want to have a baby that's fine, but why should other people do it just because you have. The people who are married and have kids shouldn't have to look far to find others like themselves.


Is it really fine if you want to have a baby? One child in the US has the same environmental impact of seven children in an undeveloped country. And people I know are having four and five and doing things like IVF. Is it really fine to add people to the awful burden our planet is facing????? Yes, I find the idea of being a mother totally distasteful personally, but also I morally object to anything more than replacement levels of reproduction (2 babies per couple - no more). Negative population growth is truly what we need.
missladyj
I had a nightmare that I was pregnant and trying to figure out what to do. I kept touching my belly and thought yep I'm pregnant.

Was relieved to wake up and find it was only a dream
faerietails
I'd be a really bitter parent. I love my nephew to death, but it's exhausting after a few hours. I can't imagine doing that day in and day out. It's soul-sucking. And like culture said, sometimes even my pets are too much, and they're my babies (like when the dog eats all the cat food and I want to strangle him). Babies? Turn on stoves, climb on chairs when you're not looking, have to be watched 24/7 (not to mention have to get their butts wiped every few hours)... I'd lose it. If that were my life for 4 whole years (before they finally go off to pre-k), I'd lose it. And then they grow and it gets worse.
humanist77
the unit below mine has been empty since i moved in 9 months ago, but apparently i just got some new neighbors-they've been pounding up and down the stairs, slamming doors and screaming and crying incessantly. I don't know how many there are, but i've got yet another reason to break my lease. The neighborhood is crazy and noisy enough, i could at least say my building was quiet until today :P
designermedusa
The last place I lived my neighbors were a couple with four children (in a one bedroom apartment). The children would run up and down the stairs sounding like elephants. It was constant yelling all day and night.
missladyj
hipster douchebaby wears silver lame shorts over black leggings. That is your facebook status update? You suck!
thepointybird
Holy crap missladyj, what is up with these people?????
candycane_girl
lol, missladyj!

Ugh, so today I took the train back home and there was some bratty little kid who kept crying, "I want a donut!" over and over and over again. From what I could tell, the parents were not doing anything to shut this kid up. It may sound bad but my parents used to threaten me with spankings all the time and it shut me up immediately. Either that or my mom would say, "If you keep bugging me for that item you'll never get it!"
LadyLove
You "SEE" your own child WAY different than other peoples'. It's LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT!!! Completely changes you in a good way!!!
pollystyrene
Um, yeah.

I know you're a newbie around here and all, but you need to respect that this thread is our (the CBC'ers) place to talk about our feelings and concerns and that we've heard that line before "It's different when it's your kid!" and we don't care- we don't want kids, we're not going to have them and no trite platitude is going to change that.

Now if you want to have an actual discussion, or you want to hear our perspective on things and maybe learn something, feel free to stick around. If your agenda is to try to convince us that if we only had a child of our own that we'd change our minds, I suggest you let yourself out and don't let the door hit you in the ass.
culturehandy
As always, there is someone out there who thinks we'll change our minds.

That post is the perfect example of how people DO NOT respect our choices to be childfree by choice. It's why we come to this thread.

How do you know we don't want children? Why is it always, Oh you'll change your mind LadyLove?
auralpoison
LadyLove is most likely another corporate shill, look at her profile/posts. Pretty soon she's gonna be touting Del Monte products to us.
pollystyrene
oh, delicious Del Monte products. Fabulous. rolleyes.gif (Why can't that eye roll emoticon be more snarky-looking?)
auralpoison
I know this is from the dreaded Daily Mail, but I think it sums up how a lot of us feel.
thepointybird
That's a great article, AP. I almost teared up a bit reading about how guilty she felt on telling her mum her plans for sterilisation. I'm lucky in that my parents don't give me any shit about my decision to remain CF, but I know that they are secretly really disappointed, especially as they couldn't have children of their own (my brother & I are adopted) and they can't really understand why anyone would squander the opportunity. I'm so glad they have a grandchild in the form of my nephew, because I think otherwise they would be really devastated. But it's still not a good enough reason to put myself through something that I really don't want to do.
candycane_girl
I'll just say it again, I'd rather have people recognize that they have no desire to be parents and not have children than to give into society's pressures and end up being horrible, resentful parents.
hellotampon
FYI: The baby names section of Yahoo Answers is priceless.
thepointybird
Sigh... Just found out that yet another of my girlfriends who was always sworn CBC is now pregnant. She's the second one of my friends to change her mind because she fell in love with/married a guy who wanted kids. It's been on my mind a lot lately, I'm single now but what if I meet and really fall for someone who wants kids? I'm pretty honest about not wanting them with anyone I meet from the get-go, but then so were these 2 gals and now they've both gone for it anyway. Luckily, Mother Nature may be on my side on this, as I'm 35 in 2 weeks and I guess I'm probably not so fertile anymore! laugh.gif But I really wish I could take this whole issue out of the dating game, which is hard enough at this age as it is.....
crazyoldcatlady
no kidding, pointybird. it's uh-ma-zing how many dudes have biological clocks. i've yet to meet a guy who says he doesn't want kids/"a family" (as defined as, having kids.)

and a young woman saying "um, no, no thank you" gets one of two responses: "you'll change your mind/you're still young/wait until you meet the right person", and, roughly, "what's wrong with you?"

i mean, of course kids can bring a new/happy dynamic to a couple, but until the kid comes out of the guy, or the woman isn't the default primary caretaker, i'm taking a pass.

i was talking to someone the other day about the reasons people have kids, and i was saying how the majority of answers i get are along the lines of, "i want a mini-me". he said it's more like, the ultimate act of love for the person you're with. i can think of a billion other ways to show that, and i think one's on kama sutra page number 54.

so here's an ethical question: is it right to enter into a serious relationship knowing that the two partners' thoughts on kids differs and is essentially a deal breaker down the line?
doodlebug
My feeling has always been: if a guy thinks a loving relationship with me has to include kids, then he is so totally the wrong guy for me. Asking me to do something I absolutely don't want to do, in exchange for that person's presence in my life, is not a loving action - and I guess that goes both ways....I wouldn't expect a guy who really wants kids to give that dream up for me. If he makes the actual choice for me over kids on his own, that might be another thing, but I suppose I would always worry that he'd resent me for the decision at some point. Still, at least he can move on and still have kids! If I went ahead and had a kid, it's not like I could just end the whole family thing and start over with someone else. (Well, some people do, I guess, but how fair is that to the kid?)

I think if you know and have communicated that you both want different things, and you go ahead anyway - unless you both acknowledge up front that this relationship has an expiry date and you're going to enjoy it for what it is, then you are going into with an underhanded motive: to change your partner's mind. I don't think that's fair to do to the person you say you love.
stargazer
QUOTE(crazyoldcatlady @ Oct 24 2009, 06:16 PM) *
so here's an ethical question: is it right to enter into a serious relationship knowing that the two partners' thoughts on kids differs and is essentially a deal breaker down the line?


OHMYFUCKINGGAWD!! Polly and I were *just* chatting about this topic this evening. Weird. blink.gif Maybe that's why we are friends IRL cocl...we just think too much alike sometimes. laugh.gif

That's my concern right now with being single. I'm still undecided.
humanist77
I'm in the thick of this situation right now..
My boyfriend of 7ish months informed me last friday that he does indeed want to have kids someday. He knew early on how I felt. When i first asked him, he said he's not sure, but most likely. All that I asked of him since then was to give it some really serious and thorough consideration, so I had a better idea of what I was getting myself into.

For years I insisted on knowing how bf's felt about it immediately, and if they disagreed with me, things had to end there. This one took a little longer. There were a couple times when he said he probably wants to do too much with his life (he's a musician) to make time for a family-and that answer was good enough for me, but last friday he was more certain of his decision than before. He said he wants 2 kids someday, and having other people's kids in his life won't be enough. He said it won't happen for at least 5-10 years, or until he's financially ready for it and has settled down some. At least he's being realistic.

So the problem is..during those 6-7 months when he was thinking about it, we sorta fell madly in love with each other. After he gave me the news last friday, I broke down. I took the next day off work because I couldn't function. Everything else between us otherwise has been awesome-the best relationship I've ever had, and I couldn't bare letting him go over this. He decided to tell me now because we were about to start looking for a new apartment together which would mean another year's commitment.

So I cried..and we talked and I cried and we talked. A LOT. I was devastated. After a lot of talking and crying, I told him that because he had taken the time to think about the issue seriously, I would do the same for him. Not that I haven't thought about it seriously for half my life already, but I said I'd try to think of it from a more neutral or positive perspective rather than an adamantly childfree one. I suppose it's an exercise in open-mindedness. My current thought process is only one of fairness, because he gave me the same respect.

Anyone who knows me IRL and some around here know how adamant I am about the issue. It's been 12 years since I first knew for sure, and it's been a large part of who I am as a person. I was militant about only dating others who felt the same way. It's been only a matter of time before getting health insurance or saving the money to get myself sterilized.
So we both want to stay together and see what happens. We ended up signing the lease on a new place a couple days ago. We got a 2 bedroom in case things don't work out and one us needs to find a roommate. I don't know if it's the ethical decision. It's just life. Allz i know is that I love the guy more than I've loved any other, and love always wins.

eta-stargazer, i have to ask if that conversation came from this latest news?
stargazer
(((humanist))) sorry to hear you had a rough couple of days. sad.gif i was just talking with polly about my single life and some of my concerns with entering a relationship at my age (34). similar to pointybird's post. congrats on the apartment. the one thing i'm struck by is how much your bf and you stay open with communicating with each other during these discussions. i think that speaks volumes about your relationship with him.
spot-on
Hi CBC busties! I'm 37 and childfree by choice. DH and I made that decision many many years ago, we both knew we didn't ever want children. I have a hereditary condition which I could pass on to my kids (50% chance) so that is a big reason why, but honestly I just never wanted any. Even as a child dreaming about the future, kids were never on my radar. We opted to have dogs and honestly sometimes they are enough of a burden when we want to go on vacation etc.

Can I say that I don't like kids? I have a very low tolerance for them, and really don't like babies especially. Why does everyone just assume that being a women you automatically want to hold their baby? Erm no thanks! What's even worse is when people say "oh you'll change your mind" or "it's different with your own". Argh!
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