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moxiegirl
as a mom, i can say with just about absolute certainty that baby-cute is a built-in evolutionay biology thing...without it, no infant would survive to even toddler-hood. and, i have a very even-tempered kid. I have no clue how parents of whiners, or needy kids, or sick kids do it. They're stronger women and men than we are, that's for sure.

We try to be very conscious of talking about things other than moxette with our friends and family (both with and without kids), for two reasons: 1. not everyone cares about poop; 2. it keeps us sane ourselves. We are culture-political-current events junkies, and if we can't keep some truth to who we are as adults, how can we ever expect to have moxette grow up to know that its important to be that way? But mostly, it keeps us sane.

So, no, clover, not all parents are too wrapped up in themselves to care about the world. In fact, none of the parents I know (my own, our other peers, etc.) are like that at all. Most people who are would have been too wrapped up in whatever their own drama is to care about the world anyway.
lucizoe
I hear you, clover

After missing my flight, I had to drive six hours to my parents' house this weekend, then back last night...we hit traffic caused SOLELY by assholes on the road rubbernecking some accident on the other side of the highway, which used up three fucking hours of time...didn't get home until 1 AM and I have my stupid college orientation shit today, which will be a complete waste of my time...

But to get to the point, on the train at midnight there was a woman with no less than four children, all under the age of 8, screaming their goddamned heads off. Mummy dearest was apparently a little too wrapped up in rubbing vaseline on her new lower back "SEXY" tattoo to be bothered to do some parenting, outside of slapping the shit out of them when they talked back to her. My knuckles were so white from gripping the seat that I thought my hands were going to fall off. I had to hold on that hard or I was going to start swinging. Why are your children not in bed?

I have met so many parents who could really give a shit about the rest of the world, as long as their kids are okay. And even then, they have no qualms about sucking up resources and helping to accelerate the destruction of the planet and how, exactly, that fits in with making the planet better for little bratley's future is completely beyond me. I wish the world would institute a one child policy, I really fucking do.
moxiegirl
lucizoe- that woman makes my point exactly. What an ass to care more about her own dumb tattoo than her children's behavior, manners and sleep schedules...um, who puts 4 kids on a train at midnight? too damed wrapped up in her own drama to care about her kids well-being.

a one-kid policy, huh? its an interesting thought. the resources it takes to contuinue to people the planet are astounding (and make my heart drop a little)- with the increase in child surviveability, the need for LARGE families is certainly nill. In thinking it through, however, i think siblings are important to learning socialization and selflessness aspects of life that would help children become thoughtful adults.

All in all, I have so much respect for women (and men) who decided to not have children, for whatever the reason. Its a tough position to take in our very child-centric culture (well, youth centric, really...parents are somehow expected to cherish all things "young"), and i think you have to be just as strong to understand yourself and stick up for your beliefs without vitriole. That's why i like reading and talking with you ladies here.
sybarite
Moxiegirl, I am always happy for your perspective. I think generally the worlds of those with kids and the childfree are growing farther and farther apart (with people seeking child-friendly and childfree spaces respectively) meaning that continued communication across the gap becomes more important, because rarer. So cheers for your input!
ambercherry
i'm still trying to figure out where i stand on this whole child-having thing. sometimes kids annoy me, and sometimes their parents annoy me even more - i don't know how i would have reacted to that asshat on the train...well, probably like you, lucizoe - white knuckled. but i think with parents like that, the kids are just bound to be reacting the way those four were. but i don't want to get into that whole discussion...

is it fair of me to say that i only like certain kids? i guess those who are close to me. the little guys that my friends just gave birth to...so far, i like them.

i've posted in here before, too, about my changing opinions of having my own children (whether by giving birth to them or by adoption). i *hate* saying this, but sometimes i wonder if my relationships really had an impact on my decision. in my last relationship - which, unfortunately, was sometimes 'loveless', i could not imagine bringing a child into that. and i couldn't imagine having a child and all the work that that would bring. sometimes, though, even before that relationship and throughout off and on, i thought that maybe at some point (heavy emphasis on maybe) if i was stable enough financially, i would have a child on my own. sorry if that doesn't make sense or sounds contradictory.

now, i am in a fabulous relationship and we're planning to marry next year and we're talking about the possibility of having a family (a very small one, i might add), either through birth or adoption. i'm feeling more and more comfortable with the idea of having a child, and feel that i'm in a better place (maturity, emotionally, financially (well, not exactly that yet)). the thing i have a difficult time with, though, is the whole relationship thing. i feel as though i was at a point where i was like "no, i really don't think i want children", and now that i am in a very loving relationship and we're talking about the possibilities, i am changing my mind. and of course, i don't want it to sound as simple as that. it's a huge decision, and i'm not making it lightly. and both my partner and i are putting a lot of thought into it. i feel like i'm rambling now, so i think i'll stop...
moxiegirl
amber- i think that thinking through your relationship is a most critical part of thinking through childrearing. Our pregnancy and early parenting has really highlighted the great things about my marriage, but it seriously stressed it as well. I couldn't imagine parenting without moxieman as my partner. Kudos for putting the equation together in the right order!
ambercherry
thanks moxiegirl. i guess i was worried of sounding a little "oh, now that i've found the right man, i want kids". you know if a woman doesn't want to get married or have kids (or for a man, perhaps, too), she sometimes hears "oh, you'll change your mind when you meet the right man blah blah blah". but i guess in my case, that's kind of what happened. i couldn't have imagined parenting a child with my ex, but with my fiance, i can totally see that happening.

anyway, we're a little ways from parenting, though, but it's good to able to discuss this stuff in a forum like this (thanks!), and with my partner. phew for that!
ms.gb
do you hear that.....thats right....nothing....its sooooo nice.

anyhoo....i support responsible breeders(such as moxie) and i sooooo appreciate the fact that my friend who threw a bday party for her hubby this weekend told her sister 'not to bring' the baby. this way, the party was focused on her hubby, not the side show of baby spit. i didn't even get the 'do you have kids?' questions cuz none were there!!! yay!
turbojenn
amber - that's so totally great that you're in a relationship where you can really feel safe in evaluating whether parenting is really what you want to do *together.* That's a really great thing.

Me, I do love kids, but the more time I spend with them, the better I feel about not wanting to have my own. I'm up for a round or two of babysitting when the need arises, but I think I'm too independant and too private a person to really enjoy the 24-hour need cycle... And then there's the good possibility of having a child with all the food allergies that I have, which, I really don't want to have to deal with in a kid. As an adult, its fine....but with a kid, its a whole 'nother layer of planning, prep, and worry, just to send your kid to school or a birthday party. ugh. so not for me. And I'm glad that I've really thought this through, and if I do decide one day to be a parent, I know that decision will be made very consciously.
cloverbee
I, for one, like to go out at night or even during the day spur of the moment w/out having to worry about who will watch my kid(s). I recently tried to plan a party somewhat last minute and some of the people w/ kids that I invited actually got snippy w/ me that I didn't consider their babysitter issue. Excuse me but this is why I do not have kids. Sorry you'll miss out on all the fun we'll have. Ahhhh....freedom.
ginger_kitty
It's kind of funny, I was talking to an old friend who I haven't seen for maybe 6 or 7 yrs, and she was shocked that I have a half sleeve tattoo. She said she didn't picture me being able to take the pain for some reason. I thought it was amusing b/c she has 4 kids! I was like I can sit for a tattoo all day, but I can't imagine the trauma of pregnancy and pain of childbirth. (Once let alone FOUR times!)
cloverbee
but ginger, you forget the pain once you see your child's beautiful face. (pukeing)
doodlebug
Yes, dissociation is a common response to trauma. Heh.
cloverbee
doodle, do you mean the trauma of childbirth or the trauma of realizing that you have children and your life is essentially over???
ms.gb
heheheeh this is all too great.....

give me tattoos anyday.....

-a week healing time
-lasting enjoyment
-no adjustment of sleeping/sex except depending on placement

childbirth

-1 month to 3 months healing or up to 6.
-lasting pain and constant reminder of it
-total change of sleep pattern/sex habits for the next 18 years.

hmm...its a no brainer for me. biggrin.gif
ginger_kitty
hahaha ladies, I am glad you see my point of view!

The baby makers at work today were trying to pressure me into having kids. It's like once a month, they try to recruite me. There are close to 200 employees where I work, and to my knowledge only 3(!) of us don't have kids. (And I am the only girl w/out babies)

A couple of coworkers were all excited about finding out one of fellow employees is pregnant, and they were all like 'it's one of us after the other, heheehehee' I was like 'yeah it's like your contagious' and so the ladies were like 'ewwww, maybe you are next!' Oh, wouldn't she be such a great mom, you know maybe you'll wait till you are 30, there is nothing wrong w/that.....It was horrible!!!! Why don't they believe me?
cloverbee
they don't believe you because they do not have the capacity to see beyond their idiotic beliefs that having children is the only reason that we exist on this overpopulated planet.
I would seriously come unhinged in an environment like that, ginger. You are so much braver than I.
keenkitty
I love my nephews and neices. But I should not have kids.

1. I have a spinal cord tumour and childbirth could kill me
2. I have chronic fatigue and never know when I am going to be out cold for 14 hours
3. I don't have a lot of patience with kids! Even my cats are obedience trained b/c otherwise they are azzhowles about trying to get out and i don't want to have to have them leashed or chase after them!

Dogs, cats, pets? Love em?

Kids? Hire a sitter.

~KnKtty rolleyes.gif
humanist77
they didn't miss a single one!
turbojenn
humanist, that is fucking brilliant. I love it!!
lucizoe
So, in the celebrity gossip thread mermaidgirl was kind enough to post the details of Ani Difranco's pregnancy announcement at the Albany NOW conference. It included the phrase: "I am on a little journey into the epicenter of women's power... which is to say that I am twelve weeks pregnant."

That phrase, "epicenter of women's power" didn't sit right with me. Granted, I don't have the rest of the context, so she could very well have meant the fear of bleeding vaginas and little humans coming out of women's bodies which has so dominated patriarchy and the oppression of women. The idea that pregnancy and birth as central to the experience of being female was not something I was expecting out of Ms. Difranco. It seems to smack a little bit of "I am achieving woman's highest calling," which, frankly, makes me want to throw things. As though all women's power is focused and revolving around one biological fact. That just isn't right to me. What about infertile women? MTF transgender women? Plain old childless and childfree women? Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it seems an inappropriate venue in which to announce a pregnancy.

I'm impressed and inspired by the skills she used to build her record label and write her music. That takes more character and power. Raising a thoughtful, creative, productive and intelligent human, that's another thing that will take strength and power. But just pregnancy and birth? Physically and psychologically exhausting, yes, but not...I dunno, holy and sacred...

I'm having an "and another one bites the dust" moment. Ah well, none of my business really...
turbojenn
Yeah, luci, I read that article and had very similar feelings - warm fuzzies for Ani becoming a mom - 'cause we know she'll raise a conscious open-minded child....and then wanting to know more about that comment. YES, pregnancy is a powerful experience, and historically, YES it has been the source of power for women...though today, maybe not the *epicenter*... it was a suprising comment, and made me wonder what the full context of the comment was.

Just the same, I'm happy for Ani, and to see where her musical path leads next...
ginger_kitty
Humanist77, LOL! That was perfect!!

I don't know what to think of what I have heard of Ani's comments. epicenter, definately rubs me the wrong way. She is a really strong women and that is totally unexpected comment. But maybe she is just embracing the situation and making the best of it. Hard to tell.

On another note, I hung out w/ my nephews and niece yesterday, and they wore me out!! There is no way I could me a mom. They are 13, 12, and 5 and ran me ragged!! There was spinning the girl around in circles, playing tag, and hide and seek with all of them and thier little friends. It was tough, I couldn't do it everyday. We played for like 5 hrs, and when I had to leave, they try to convince me to come home w/ them and play w/ thier new pup. I was sweating and panting! I love them, but hanging out w/ them only convinces me that I am making the right decision by staying Childfree for Life!!
mermaidgirl13
Lucizoe, I kind of felt "another one bites the dust" about it too. I don't know if that's too judgemental of me, because one of the things I really hate is that people don't let other other change their minds. For example, people are vegetarians and then decide not to be after a while and get a lot of shit for it. Or people who don't want kids and are sure they don't but years go by and they change their minds and then their friends make fun of them and give them the whole "see, I knew you'd come around" kind of thing.

I get that from my friends all the time. I'm always saying I don't want kids, won't have kids and they always tell me I'll change my mind. It's really insulting on the one hand (and I get really angry) but if I do end up changing my mind in ten years, I shouldn't deserve to get shit for it, you know? I don't know - am I making any sense?
cloverbee
hmmm...maybe that's the reason people still say that. Because so many people end up changing their minds. My question is whether or not it should affect us so much. Is it just irritating or are we not confident in our decisions?
squidmo
The Ani comment has me a little thrown, too. I never wanted children, but I am in month seven of a very unexpected pregnancy. Now, it is pretty amazing all of the changes one goes through, but I never would have thought that this was the "epicenter" of my existence. The thing about that comment is that pregnancy has just as much to do with men as women, at least initially, and I certainly don't think anyone in their right mind would classify men spreading their seed as the "epicenter of male power." I know that is not what she was implying, but it seems like such an ineloquent statement coming from someone like her. I know it was meant to sound empowering, but the flip side is that comes off as being a bit judgemental, and it seems less than progressive in my mind. To me, freedom of choice in all matters is more the pinnacle of human achievement than any biological happening. Just because one finds herself pregnant and enjoying it certainly does not make it the crowning acheivement of women everywhere. But, if she feels it is HER most magnificent moment as a women, then good for her. Poor choice of words, though.
lot49
Maybe she meant "epicenter" in the disastrous sense of the word? smile.gif

It does seem like an unfortunate choice of words, as though she decided to announce on the spot. But pregnancy is a woman's issue and a feminist issue and I think her intetion was to say that her journey is an experience that's unique and important to women. The word doesn't sit right with me either, but her past actions completely override it for me.
ambercherry
mermaidgirl, i agree with what you said about people getting flak or "i told you so's" when they change their minds about something, especially if it was a decision about a lifestyle. i think it's disrespectful to a person's choice and reasons for changing her or his mind. i think someone can be totally confident in her decision to do something and then after a while (however long) decide to change her mind. life changes, people change, situations change. you go with the flow.

that ani remark doesn't sit well with me, either. and i don't know very much about it - only what i've read on here and in the celebrity gossip thread.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(humanist77 @ Jul 22 2006, 12:38 AM) *



That is brilliant.

in defense of Ani, pregnancy is a woman's experience and only a woman's experience. I think that solid fact pisses off a lot of mysogynistic assholes out there, because they cannot have kids. Just because I am not particularly interested in feeling "the epicenter of my power", I cannot get down on a woman who is psyched to be pg.

It is kind of hypocritical to complain about how people put you down bc you do not want to be a parent, but then to come down on someone who has a somewhat iconic stature who is excited a becoming a parent.

I think both sides should respect each other and I KNOW that when you don't want kids, people have a tendency to pick that apart more often. But, I think someone also deserves respect for taking on that challenge.
ms.gb
i love the bingo!!!!

as for Ani....all i can think is 'the epicenter of the earthquake was....' really... most big natural disasters have epicenters, no?

i talked to my mom, who in the past has been negative (to put it nicely) about mr.gb and my choice to not have kids, yesterday. Apparently, my breeder brother/SIL(who she is visiting) popped the question of when me and mr.gb will pop out some progeny. mom said 'they aren't having any.' Apparently, my SIL's eyes popped out of her head and she asked why. mom simply told them that we weren't interested to having kids.

(dances triumphantly around the room like an epiphany has struck)

mom is telling the family!!! which means, she is more accepted of our decision!!! this is HUGE!!!

Course, now all hell is gonna break loose from my siblings but i can handle that easy. See example:

Brother: why aren't you having kids?

me: why haven't you graduated yet? its been 10 years and 4 kids? don't you want a better life for your family?

hehehehehehe i can't wait!!! ((rubs hands while cackling with glee))

lucizoe
GGG, I didn't read anyone tearing Ani down. Just some troubled thoughts that someone as iconic as she is would say something (at a feminist conference, no less) that so reinforces the idea that women are valuable and powerful because they are the ones who give birth. Also, why is it important to feminism if Ani Difranco is pregnant? I didn't understand that; the Feministing women said that there was buzz that Ani had an important announcement before her stint onstage even started. Why is it so important? We're powerful and valuable because we are functioning human beings with brains outside of our reproductive organs, not because we can give birth if we choose.


I know that it's completely not PC to say this, but why isn't pregnancy considered a temporary disability? I know there was, historically, a big brouhaha regarding this idea, and that feminism has rejected it. However, it seems to me that if you are potentially going to be throwing up every morning, unable to lift objects above a certain weight, need to pee a lot, need to sit and rest a lot, buy special clothes to accomodate a temporary condition, and be unable to move at a rapid pace if necessary...I dunno, sounds like a disability to me. Not a "put your feet up, you poor dearie, and sip this chilled drink" sort of situation, rather a "oh, okay. You need some special help right now" situation. Is it because it's a choice, not a condition outside of one's control (like a back injury or blindness) ?

cloverbee
I'm feelin' ya lucizoe. Besides, women w/ children make less money and have a lower life expectancy if they also work. How is that good for feminism? I believe that our power comes from choosing not to be a slave to society's expectations of women and blazing a new trail that includes freedom both financially and domestically. Unfortunately, this concept does not seem to be taking off.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(cloverbee @ Jul 24 2006, 07:12 PM) *

I'm feelin' ya lucizoe. Besides, women w/ children make less money and have a lower life expectancy if they also work. How is that good for feminism? I believe that our power comes from choosing not to be a slave to society's expectations of women and blazing a new trail that includes freedom both financially and domestically. Unfortunately, this concept does not seem to be taking off.



Well, I think feminism should focus on women who are all things, mothers included. Being a mom isn't easy, but being a woman is not easy. I think it is unfair to embrace women in all professions but snidely treat those women who want to be mothers.

As I said, if you don't want to be treated unfairly for not wanting to be a mom, you should not treat others unfairly for choosing differently.

The fact that women are CHOOSING whether or not to become a mother is important to feminism.

The fact that a system punishes women who have kids, as you stated, by paying them less and inflicting stress on them to set a lower life expectancy, should be a fight that all feminists should want to take that on. Feminism teaches women to be anything they want and to snub societal expectations. If a woman is choosing to mother, than that is great. If she feels forced to be one and feels the need to force it on others, that is not great.
squidmo
I really don't understand how pregnancy is "a woman's experience and only a woman's experience." I agree that pregnancy is a major issue for women everywhere, but to claim that pregnancy is an experience soley dealt with by women is ridiculous. Now, I am pregnant, and my partner is just as "expecting" as I am. Although he doesn't have to deal with the physical symtoms (which, yes, I believe have left me temporarily disabled to a point tongue.gif ), he is still very emotionally and financially involved. This is just as much his experience as mine. Now, unfourtunately, not everyone has that kind of support, and in those cases it does fall solely on the woman. I think by classifying pregnancy as "only a woman's experience" the door has been left wide open for fathers to be less accountable. It implies that women are solely responsible for breeding, which is just not true.

I agree that the system treats mothers (especially single mothers) unfairly. If equal stress were to be put on the importance of both parents, I think that the system would find a bit more balance. I agree this is a huge issue for feminism.
girlygirlgag
Yes, you need the father to get pregnant, but the pregnancy itself takes a toll on the woman's body. The woman's life is at risk to bring the event to fruition. I believe that the father, if still with the mother goes through life changes, but it is different. Plus, too much and too widely accepted, the man can leave. Physically, it is a woman's experience.
lucizoe
GGG- (I'm sorry - I'm computer illiterate and quoting is a skill I have not acquired wink.gif )

"The fact that a system punishes women who have kids, as you stated, by paying them less and inflicting stress on them to set a lower life expectancy, should be a fight that all feminists should want to take that on. Feminism teaches women to be anything they want and to snub societal expectations. If a woman is choosing to mother, than that is great. If she feels forced to be one and feels the need to force it on others, that is not great."

Wordy Mc-Fucking-Word

As to women getting the short end of the stick in terms of childcare, well, yeah. Big deep breath here to prepare for rampant generalizations: Because 1. They have no partner; or 2. They don't have any power in their relationship; or 3. They won't make their partner take on his/her share of the work. On the last, I read someone's journal recently in which they were relaying a conversation between two mothers in heterosexual relationships. Both were very honest in saying that they both emotionally blocked out their male partners for the first year of their babies' lives. It was really interesting; they just could not get out of the baby haze, so they did all the childcare. So maybe finding ways to make the less-involved partner step-up to the plate is not the answer for some people. Nothing is terribly clear-cut, nor is any relationship ever consistently equal; that's terribly unrealistic.

I'm not sure what I'm trying for here (besides rampant semicolon abuse, of course). Much of modern feminism has focused on making situations, particularly professional ones, more equitable for working mothers. This is good. But along the way, I think many people in the movement have lost sight of the fact that things are not always easier for women who don't choose to mother. I can't even count the number of articles I've read which thoughtlessly interchange "women" and "mothers" as though there was no difference in terms. I would be far more inclined to fight for an extended paid maternity leave if there was some sort of similar perk in there for people who would like time off for a sabbatical, or school, or travel. Maybe one big pool of flex-time that can be taken for whatever you want.

So complicated.
oceandessa
Delurking:

Congratulate me ladies, I will be officially sterile on October 3rd 2006.

I am getting an IUD inserted, so not as dramatic as tubal, but pretty damn close. I am absolutely thrilled. I had a pretty nasty scare this month, and it made me decide that I don't want kids any time soon, nor do I fancy the idea of an abortion should I get knocked up (nasty medical history would make this a particularly bad choice for my body - It's not a moral thing at all).

So yes, I am getting sterile IUD-style. Yippee! I wish I was getting it done tomorrow.

I love lurking in this thread, because you lovelies say what's on my mind, and because it has become such an accepting place for women's choice. It's amazing how much society pressures women to have babies, only to leave them completely on their own once the babies emerge. Hypocrasy at its worst.

On the otherhand, I enjoy kids. They're fascinaring and fun, and they're a heck of a lot easier to deal with than adults. But I hate the idea of being responsbile for one. I hate the idea of not being able to take a break from one. I hate the idea of putting my life and being on hold for one, because regardless of how "modern" men and society become, it's still the ladies that are expected to put everything on hold until the bambino is their mid 20s.
turbojenn
WORD to all ya'lls!! So many good points here, its hard to focus.

Over time, it is simply amazing to me how much time and energy women who choose *not* to have kids spend thinking about this choice, talking about it, explaining it....I don't think childfree ment put nearly the conscious thought into it. So, good for us for thinking very clearly about what parenthood and non-parenthood means!

And luci, I am *so* with you on the sabbatical for the childfree - if I could prove my sterility, I think I should get my 12 week leave anyway, and hell, lets make the gov't support it, since we'll be paying higher taxes our whole lives, and support those who choose to have kids.

And congrats ocean!!! That's so exciting! I find myself hung up on the fact that the current pill I'm on has cleared up my skin more than anything I've ever found, and seriously, that's why I'm holding on to the pills...once an IUD is in, I won't be able to just swap out if it makes my skin break out again. For the first time since I was 14, my skin is actually clear, and gorgeous.
cloverbee
what are you talking about, turbo? you and I both have kids. you have turbo and I have clover wink.gif. but really, why would anyone even think about bringing a child into this world when we can't even take care of the ones that are already born? there are so many abandoned kids out there. it just feeds into my suspicion that people have kids for selfish reasons. ie. to have someone just like them etc.
zahia1996
Yay! Lots of like-minded women here! I think sometimes the "system" treats childless women unfairly as well. I don't know how familiar you all are with the military (I'm active duty, USN), but we've got our normal working hours, and then occasionally have to stand duty, which is usually overnight. Its set up on a rotation schedule. Schedule being the operative word. I cannot count how many times I have been called in to stand duty b/c someone didn't have the foresight to arrange child care. Since I am the only woman without kids in my duty section, obviously I have all the free time in the world, and nothing better to do than come in on my off time to stand in for them. It *really* irks me. To a degree, I feel some sympathy, because I have seen my sister struggle to find decent child care. But really! All the time???
On the plus side, I figured out how to get out of it! When they call and ask me to come in, I just say, "sorry, I'm already drunk". laugh.gif
thepointybird
Brilliant Zahia!
I'm a little dismayed at the Ani thing. It's hardly "the epicentre of woman's power". It's a bodily function we have that men don't have. That's all. To me, it makes as much sense as some guy in the public eye standing up and saying "I am journeying to the epicentre of man's power" shortly before peeing whilst standing up.
treehugger
Yay, Oceandessa!!! Congrats! smile.gif Doesn't it feel empowering?
QUOTE(oceandessa @ Jul 24 2006, 07:04 PM) *

Delurking:

Congratulate me ladies, I will be officially sterile on October 3rd 2006.

I am getting an IUD inserted, so not as dramatic as tubal, but pretty damn close. I am absolutely thrilled. I had a pretty nasty scare this month, and it made me decide that I don't want kids any time soon, nor do I fancy the idea of an abortion should I get knocked up (nasty medical history would make this a particularly bad choice for my body - It's not a moral thing at all).

So yes, I am getting sterile IUD-style. Yippee! I wish I was getting it done tomorrow.

I love lurking in this thread, because you lovelies say what's on my mind, and because it has become such an accepting place for women's choice. It's amazing how much society pressures women to have babies, only to leave them completely on their own once the babies emerge. Hypocrasy at its worst.

On the otherhand, I enjoy kids. They're fascinaring and fun, and they're a heck of a lot easier to deal with than adults. But I hate the idea of being responsbile for one. I hate the idea of not being able to take a break from one. I hate the idea of putting my life and being on hold for one, because regardless of how "modern" men and society become, it's still the ladies that are expected to put everything on hold until the bambino is their mid 20s.

cloverbee
yes my friends, now THAT is empowerment. now go forth and create hot sex!!!!
ginger_kitty
Congrats!!!! oceandessa.
oceandessa
Thanks everyone! I feel very empowered indeed! smile.gif
moxiegirl
Clover, do you really think its a simple descision to have kids, for those of us who do make a descision? Its not. An illustration from my life: We went back and forth for years (ask Turbo if you don't believe me) about birth vs. adoption. We knew we wanted to be parents, because we feel its a way we can contribute to and participare in our society (raising socially aware, progressive children), but also because it suits our lifestyle. We don't go out much anyway, our friends are all "family" types, and we love spending time togehter with them (adults and kidlets). We ended up at biological children for a very simple reason- we could have children biologically. We made a deal that, after a year, if I wasn't pregnant, we would adopt. Other benefits of biolocial children: Its easier (although pregnancy isn't easy). cheaper (which equals more resources later for raising said child) and I do find myself now looking at my daughter and seeing my own mother, and sister, and grandmother. Which is a mind-blowing thing to think about. Maybe for future children we will adopt, because being pregnant again is something i really don't ever want to do.

Please, don't for a minute think that having children biologically is nothing more or less than a selfish act. That's really a very minimalistic, generalized view that doesn't befit such intelligent discussion as you all have here.

on another topic- can the iud and the pill be taken simultaneously? clear skin, no unwanted knocked-up-ness?
sybarite
I also think not having children is a complex decision. I have been deliberating back and forth for 3+ years and don't think the decision (either way) is ever simple. A friend of mine (who had an unplanned pregnancy but adores her 2 children) said to me: ' if you thought very long about all of the implications of having children, no-one would ever have them.'

I'm happy that I've given my decision a lot of thought. I feel I've consequently made an informed one. In a way, that's all anyone can do.
moxiegirl
sybarite- I absolutly agree. In many ways, the descision not to have children is more complex and deliberate. Especially in the western world where children are fetishized, and youth culture is "it." I can't imagine myself ever being the type of mother who would ever fetishize my kid- she's a unique human being who is part of my family, and in that way, is very special to me. BUT, she's still just a person. The "mommy and me" types kind of give me the heebe-jeebes.

What bothers me most about having a child is the assumption that we just "did" it. I guess that's the close-cousin of the CBC crowd's "oh, you'll change..." peeve. Oh, and the assumption that because we have 1 child, we'll have more- and it wouldn't matter a lick WHEN we have more. Um, no-ah-ah.
lucizoe
Unfortunately, moxiegirl, there are far too many people out there who don't give the children question much thought at all, which carries over to not much thought or time invested in raising said children...who then turn into the delightful hellions who ruin most of the public gatherings they frequent.

Personally, I do think that having biological kids is selfish considering the state of the world, which is why I'm not doing it. Obviously we'll all have different opinions on that, but since this is the childfree thread I'm not going to shy away from saying it. I wish it was easier for everyone to respect people's choices and maybe cut some slack when people need to vent, since it's really hard to do IRL with this rise of the Cult of the Child (at least in the US).

Heh, the Children International street harassers were out today, as usual. I always enjoy being creative in the ways in which I don't "give a moment of [my] time today." For the DNC folks, it's "Sorry, I'm a Green! Maybe if the Democratic Party wanted to put feminism in their platform I'd think about it!" For Children International it's "Sorry, don't much care for kids. I donate to Planned Parenthood instead." Pretty mild, but the reactions! You'd think I was ripping the head off of a live infant and eating it in front of them. (And yes, I understand that US policies account for much of the poverty and despair those kids face...but honestly, you have to choose your battles and mine is for the animals and the environment).

A very old friend of mine just emailed me saying that her clock is ticking. Complete with exclamation points!!!! What is this mythical clock? Is it possible that I'm missing some parts? Maybe a wheel or a cog or a spring or something? wink.gif
girlygirlgag
I would love to be a foster parent. But I want to be more financially stable, to have more time. Plus I want my bonus kids to be older, they are in the toddler, to little kid ages and though we have them only half of the week, they are still a ahndful.
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