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damona
*threadcrashing*

lightbright, i know this is coming in late, but i just want you to know that you are not alone. i just turned 26 and have 4 sons, 7,4,3,and 18 months. i get little help and less rest and there are so many days when i wonder why the hell i did this to myself... but under all the chaos i do love my kids. you gotta try to get some time to do things for yourself or you will end up resenting your kids. i always used to say i was never having kids (yeah, thanks birth control, for working so well), and now my life is one crisis after the next. hmmm... i'm a babbling a bit, sorry. i'll stop.

also, oneping and lightbright, you are welcome over in the mama threads too!

oh, and kinda on topic... i had a tubal after my last kid and every time i see my dr he says "just remember, there's still a 1 in a hundred chance of you getting pregnnt!" i just tell him to shut up and stop trying to jinx me! (altohough he is right, there is a higher chance of your body regenerating/getting around a tubal when you are in your early/mid 20's than when you are older, just fyi!)

ok, i'm sneaking back out now...
obelix
Sigh. Another promising relationship just ended because I'm adamantly child-free. We'd only been seeing each other for a few weeks, and weren't even officially dating yet. Then we had The Talk, and I admitted that, despite how amazingly cool he is, I've known from the very first date (when he said that he intended to move back to the midwest to raise a family some day) that we couldn't have a serious relationship.

Poop! I know we made the right decision, but now I feel like I should start introducing myself to people as "Hi, I'm Obelix, I'll never reproduce, nice to meet you." Otherwise, this is just going to keep happening.
cloverbee
do you ladies find it wierd that so many men want kids? you would think they wouldn't want the responsibility. what's up w/ that?????
btw obelix, sorry to hear about that.
rosered
One of the nine hundered thousand reasons my mom is awesome: she says if she wants kids in her life in a grandparenty-way,it's her responsiblitiy, NOT MINE, to come up with them. She's talked about volunteering with kids and foster-parenting as possible options for futures with children.

As for me, I love kids, love working with them, love hanging out with them, but I'm not having them. People tell me "you're so nurtuing, you should have kids," but what they fail to understand is that I'm able to nurture kids because my life leaves me time to nurture myself, something that is very difficult for most modern parents. I look forward to the possiblitiy of being an aunt, but I'll never be a mother. I think too many people assume reproducing is the only way to make kids a part of your life.
atarrill
Obelisk, I'm sorry about that. I know it hurts, but you're strong and I admire you for being honest with him even when you knew it would probably end the budding relationship. Hang in there -- I believe there are men out there who are also serious about never having children.

Most men of my age (43) would not expect me to have their babies, or they are finally ready to have kids, so they are interested in women at least 10 years younger than me. (I would not date a divorced man with children still at home with him or their mother.) The man I'm with now is younger than me, but he was in a long-term relationship with a woman who had a young son and never allowed him to parent the boy (whose dad had basically disappeared). The whole thing soured him on childrearing. My guy would like kids but he said "If it's having children or having you, I want to be with you". Yet sometimes I think he should be with a woman who wants at least one child.

It's so dumb, most times it seems guys are afraid of "getting trapped" by some woman and then there's that stereotype of the "desperate for a baby" single woman in her late 30s whose "clock is ticking". Guys hate that. A lot of men, once they are fathers, aren't that happy with the situation. As we know, so many just think "I want kids" without thinking deeply about what it actually means or how it will affect their lives.

Once childfree women get into their middle and upper 30s, there's the possibility of finding a guy not too much older who has grown children and doesn't want a second family. Sometimes these are men who have solid careers and want to experience "life" (going to movies, having a social life, traveling) with a wife rather than all the crap of raising kids. Sounds harsh, but that's the truth.

It cracked me up a few years ago when one of my gal pals told me I was "a real catch" for an older, successful man who wanted a second wife to travel the world with because I am financially independent and I don't have the "baggage" of kids. But then I looked around and realized she was right.
turbojenn
Obelisk...I'm sorry you had to make a tough decision, but honesty is so important, and you know what you want....nothing wrong with that.

I think so many men do want kids, but having them does not mean the same level of responsibility for them as it means for women, and for me, that is not ok. Kids are a perfectly nice idea, turboman has mentioned that he would be the last to carrry on his family name, and well, that name's not going anywhere with me. We're in a tough spot negotiating the no kids point, and Obelisk, I would not choose to have this conflict. So, I think you are wise and reasonable for having the courage to be honest about what you want and need.
cloverbee
I hear you. But I catch a lot of flack from men about not wanting kids. as if I'm some sort of really immature person or something. I think they think I'm acting like an immature 15 yr.old who is selfish for not wanting kids. That's just the vibe I get. Or they can't believe it and then start to tell me about their five or six kids. But sometimes I feel like one day I will meet a man who will respect me for not wanting kids and I'm starting to think that's not going to happen. BTW I would never date a man w/ kids. No matter what. It's interesting to hear from you older ladies who have so much experience with these issues. I would like to hear more from you all.
pollystyrene
Drive-by- I've been out of town all weekend, and I'll catch up tomorrow, but I am super pissed right now because my boyfriend has this friend who's becoming more and more of a thorn in my side- he's just a misogynist asshole and I wish my boyfriend would just end their friendship...I'm sort of the Yoko Ono figure- it's all my fault they don't talk as much anymore...personally, I think he's just pissed that I wouldn't take him back in high school! Anyway, I found out from another friend who does still talk to the guy that asshole-boy told this friend that he thinks it's a good thing my boyfriend and I aren't procreating, meaning more as a swipe to me than my boyfriend. How lovely it is to have it tossed back in your face! Maybe I'll have a kid and leave it on his doorstep!
rainarana
do you ladies find it wierd that so many men want kids?>

Besides the not having as much responsibility for the kids, I think it's also a MANHOOD thing. Like the stupid invention some guy came up with. Prosthetic testicles for dogs. They couldn't stand the idea of their dogs losing their virility, even if they don't want puppies.

Once childfree women get into their middle and upper 30s, there's the possibility of finding a guy not too much older who has grown children and doesn't want a second family. Sometimes these are men who have solid careers and want to experience "life" (going to movies, having a social life, traveling) with a wife rather than all the crap of raising kids. Sounds harsh, but that's the truth. >

That's what I ended up doing. My fella is older with grown children. His kids are great, one is working on her PHD in Biochem, the other daughter is ay university majoring in theology. Both are like much younger sisters to me, and I dig getting to be a type of mentor. The older of the two spent the weekend and we were talking about kids. She's leaning towards not wanting to have any. Her boyfriend says he wants them but she grimaced at the thought. I told her she should convince himm to get a job working with kids. I don't think he's ever been around young kids much so he has no idea. And he's a sports fanatic, which means he would resent not being able to do all his sports related stuff because his girlfriend works massive hours and may well have to travel for work.

hear you. But I catch a lot of flack from men about not wanting kids. as if I'm some sort of really immature person or something. I think they think I'm acting like an immature 15 yr.old who is selfish for not wanting kids.>

I can't help but think that there are still a lot of men out there who see women as vessels for their seed. Why the hell else would they get so offended?

And about the family name thing, why oh why do people care about that.

sybarite
My mister has a daughter already (who doesn't live with us) but is still more open to the idea of us having kids than I am. I'm very happy he has his daughter because it takes some pressure off of me, but at times I think he feels I am being 'selfish' for not wanting kids. Whereas I look at our life right now: both working long hours, barely eating together, sharing half the weekend together because of different schedules, and I can see that everything would have to change completely, giving us less time together and putting more pressure on. I know he'd do his share of the childcare, but I already do the lion's share of the housework and I'd just be stuck with all the extra cleaning and laundry.

The above is not to vilify my mister; he's a good father to his daughter. I think there's a vicious circle whereby women are still perceived as the default main parent. Men absorb this and then can reinforce the pattern by being less hands-on, which is roundly condoned. My guy transcends a lot of stereptypical male behaviour but I feel in the area of parenting the odds are stacked too highly against us.

Additionally, I just like my life the way it is now. Yes I work long hours, but I choose to because I like my work. I see no reason to change anything.
treehugger
Cloverbee,

I don't know if you'd consider me "older". I think I probably am because I'd be pushing it if I got pregnant. I'm 38 years old.

At my age, many men that I meet already have kids. Some of them have kids in their late teens. I don't get any flak anymore from potential dating partners. However, when I announced my tubal surgery, a couple guys asked me if I wasn't being "drastic" because "it's so permanent".

I do have to admit to looking younger than 38. But my close friends know how old I am.

I had pretty good luck on an internet dating site that let you click on if you want kids or not. They know right up front that way...and you can exclude them if they want them. Never had one of the internet dates work out in the long run though, although the reasons weren't child-related.

As for me, I'd prefer not to date men with ANY kids at all, grown or not grown. I just don't want those weird encumberances that come with them...such as "dad, I'm in jail, can you bail me out?"...or dealing with a grown child's rejection/acceptance of me.

I'm a happy sort, though. And like I said, the "flak" has all but disappeared.
lucizoe
The only conversation I ever had with a man about having kids (except of course for Mr.Luci, who is just as adamantly against them as I am) included his desire to pass on his name (whatever the hell THAT means) and the usual stupid reasons to have them. I know he's thinking he'll couple with a woman who will do all the shit work involved, as they usually do.

Last week we were deep in the Mister's family for two days for his granddad's funeral. It was rough; they are exceedingly clannish and his grandfather was the head of the clan and very much Mister's true father figure. However, we are not married, so I didn't get any questions regarding reproduction.

However, his uncle (who is only about five years older than he is) is on child number 2, little M'Stake. His wife is so attached to the seven month old that she refused to leave it with the babysitter they got for the older child, instead dragging it to the memorial service and dinner afterwards, where all the focus had to be on the stupid baby instead of the fantastic man we were supposedly there to honor. Add that to the fact that the next day we were all at the cemetery, waiting for them for twenty minutes past the scheduled time because his wife had to do her hair and makeup. The poor honor guard dudes had to just stand and stand and stand and stand, Mister's grandma was close to losing it when we got there and the wait didn't help, and they didn't apologize for being late, nor did they leave the baby behind with the babysitter THIS time either.

I really think there are places where infants are just NOT acceptable and funerals are one of them. Everyone's focus goes to the kids instead of on the deceased; I suppose for some it's a welcome distraction, but in general, I disapprove. As I do of a lot of things. :-)

Hee - at the memorial service we were talking to some random dude who, at 48, had adopted a baby with his wife. The baby is now 20 months old and was running around wreaking havoc at the service too. When Mr.Luci heard the dude say he was 48 and had just adopted a baby he asked him: "What the fuck were you thinking?"

Rude, perhaps, but I had to giggle. Especially when the guy replied, with a huge sigh: "I wasn't."

(((obelix)))

(on a related note, I um, haven't gotten my period yet...so, any "Let's get this girl's hoo-ha bleeding" vibes you wanna send my way are more than welcome...)
kjhink
I've been lurking here forever, as someone who has gone back and forth on kids and remains fundamentally undecided, I just want to say how glad I am to talk with intelligent women from all over who are either firmly and happily not reproducing, or who are also undecided because they recognize the HUGE costs (in every sense of the word) of children.

I think that many men are pro-children because on some level they know that having a baby will affect their lives less than it affects ours. They may or may not feel this consciously, and I doubt that most men who are aware of it wouldn't admit it. Hell, they might even be incorrect in their assumption, but I believe that assumption is there.

For them, fatherhood is about little league games, ice cream trips, and learning how to ride a bike. The day-to-day mundane kid maintenance that parenthood entails is lost on them. PLUS, the threshold for being a "good father" is a lot lower than the threshold for being a "good mother."

Plus, we are heavily enculturated with the idea that child rearing is women's work. Even the most feminist man has been steeped in a world that tells him that he is not expected to do much to care for his own offspring. Some realize this, most don't. Many men are very content with the idea that their kids are, ultimately, someone else's problem.

My ex-husband morphed from a reasonably normal human being into some alpha-male uber-tool during the course of our marriage. We were discussing having a baby, and as time went on he made it clear that he felt his desires should trump mine in all areas of kid-rearing. Had we become parents there is no way we would have parented 50/50, despite any discussions we had had prior to our marriage.

atarrill

quote:

"What the fuck were you thinking?"




HA! I met a state senator on a plane once and he said he asked his son, who had just started a second family at somewhere around age 50, that same question.


quote:

Many men are very content with the idea that their kids are, ultimately, someone else's problem.




So true. Most men know, at least subconsiously, that the mother will end up doing most of the shitwork with the child. The mother will usually take on the "second shift" whether she wants to or not, and if the guy decides to go out to buy a bottle of cologne rather than wash the dishes, he can do it.

Good thoughts, Kjhink. A lot of guys say they'll do the work and then they become resentful and refuse to do it when reality hits.

I have to admit that I'm not so concerned about carrying on the "name" but the bloodline, the memories, all that stuff. Wish I could do it, had wanted to when I was younger, but I gave that up to have my independence.
katiebelle2882
people like your mister's uncle's wife make me insane. and the fact that he (the uncle) doesnt tell her whats up and to get a grip is equally bad. clearly, she doesnt have much else in her life, including logic and a sense of decency
lucizoe
(sidenote - took a pregnancy test and boom! started bleeding. Weird. I guess once the stress went away...)
turbojenn
Here's my thought on the whole name/bloodline issue, albeit a rather crunchy perspective, so hold on tight...I believe we've all been here on this planet in other lifetimes, incarnations, and that our spirit can span many many lifetimes....now do I believe that my spirit is tethered to the ancestral line that I am a part of this time? Hell no. So really, the whole bloodline thing, makes no impact on my decision.

I think, like anywhere else, that if you bring your babies along they either should be well behaved, or leave the immediate public area with them and go somewhere else while they squall. We've had a lot of funerals in our family in the last couple years, and my SIL always had to bring her kids along - should she miss her mother's funeral or her grandparents'? No. But she was kind enough to pre-arrange with some of the church volunteers to take her kiddos if/when they started to fuss so that she could still be a part of the service...it worked out fine. Its all about respect, right?
maddy29
yeah lucizoe:-) whew!
msgoofball
after a mindbendingly busy weekend, i forgot the chicken in the crock pot...was gone all day...i have no time for kids...i was looking at a new dog possibility...i don't even have time for that...not for a while...

i have no need to carry on a 'line'. mr. gb was adopted and has a bad stigma associated with that so no kids for us. We love his parents and are very close with them. His aunt and uncle never had children and have enjoyed traveling and such. i know i would have no problems from his side of the family which is a relief. and i have two brothers who can 'carry the name'...mom is still waiting for the joint acct., the name change, my sahm status. silly woman.
doodlebug
This is quick; I apologize. I'm in a rush to get back to a bunch of work...

I think the whole "bloodline" thing - the desire to hand down one's family name and/or to beget little futuristic replicas of one's self - is often people's way of coping with the limitations of their own mortality. Having kids is a way of ensuring that you "go on" in some way, that you have left some kind of permanent footprint or legacy during your time on earth. Most people struggle with issues of mortality (regardless of their spiritual beliefs, or even because of them) and the desire to accomplish something important during their lifetimes (self-actualization). Kids are a form of "immortality"...and I've often heard even parents describe it in these terms. (And since just about everyone can have a kid, it's possibly the most accessible way to achieve earthly "immortality.")

I've always felt like my art would be my "legacy" or "immortality" on earth, although it seems now that my feminist political work is also becoming part of "herstory," which is an unexpected legacy, and possibly the main one...unless my art somehow becomes known when I'm old...or dead!
cloverbee
good point, doodle. welcome lurkers.
Oh, I wish I had the balls to say stuff like that ("what the fuck were you thinking?"). That's great. and as for kids at a funeral, I feel the same way. rude.rude.distracting.rude. unless they were close to the deceased and then there may be exceptions.
I think that another reason people choose to procreate is to re-live their childhood somehow. I feel this is the case moreso w/ men for some reason. Like they get to give their kids all the cool toys they had and do all the stuff w/ the kid that they miss doing. Also, I think that they attach part of their manhood identitiy w/ having kids. Like it's the "manly" thing to do somehow. Maybe it makes them feel more responsible or grown-up or something.
I have no desire to raise children myself. I've got enough responsibilities w/ my dog. she sheds like crazy and I'm always having to clean up after her and I couldn't imagine having to do it for a kid. My roommates sis just had a baby about 9 mo/ago and she always looks so tired and unhappy. I do not envy her.
atarrill
Good thoughts.

I don't have a personal desire for immortality so much as a familial one, if I can make that understandable. I don't care if anyone remembers me or looks like me, but I would like them to know of/have the stories of my mother's and father's families. The continuity aspect has a strong pull for me. I love the people I come from and we know a lot of our history, so it feels sad that I won't be able to share it with anyone. And yeah, there is that thought, like at the end of "Bladerunner", that I would like to pass on my memories and other things on to someone connected to me and thus connected to them -- not just an audience who could not feel that connection. However, I do see art as a legitimate outlet for this need/desire/wish.

On the other hand, I could have a kid who turned out to be a total brat who didn't give a fig for family history and cursed me for giving him life. Definitely one of the reasons I DON'T have children is because I feel absolutely nothing for the concept of children "completing" me in some way. "You complete me, Mini-Me." HA! I'll complete myself, thanks.

Turbo, your idea about spirits that transcend blood connection is interesting! I like that.
treehugger
atarrill,

Our family wrote a book. Huge book. I'm probably going to give it to a historical society or something. It'll definitely be shared, and it's fascinating. We go all the way back to the first generation of our family who immigrated here from the USSR territories.

Who says your history has to be passed down only to your kin?
atarrill
Treehugger, that's cool!

I have always loved the "family" feeling and connection we have and would like to share that with a child. That's why I'm still open to one day adopting a child over 7. I know the child doesn't have to be of my DNA. Rather than think of "how will this child complete me" or whatever, I tend to think that I have a lot to give and perhaps a new phase of my life would be parenting a child who would otherwise not be adopted. It's the "birth and baby" part that I'm totally against.
turbojenn
hey ya'll....reading Wired, I came across a new term for children coined by the childfree, that I thought was pretty funny: "crotch fruit."

Of course parents have already co-opted the term, but whatever, its still amusing....
lucizoe
Oh, man, turbojenn...the one CF board I frequent is loaded with some really really unkind terms. Crotch-droplet or dropping, crotch-loaf, sprog (which, actually, I like and use under my breath to Mr.Luci), etc. I tend not to use the more, how shall we say, lewd-sounding phrases, as I am a lady! (Excuse me whilst I snort coffee out my nose, wipe it on my shirt and belch loudly and often), but they still crack me up when I read them.

treehugger
Egads.

I went today for my preop exam (tubal is one week from today).

I don't know if anybody has ever sat in an overcrowded OBGYN office in the middle of the day....geesh.

I finally got in to see the surgeon and he said, "so you haven't changed your mind, eh?"

And I said, "Um, the wait in the waiting room area clinched it". LOL

He laughed.

Ten minutes around all those pregnant women and all the children!! and I was ready to run out of there. The hair was standing up on the back of my neck. I wanted to vomit at the diagrams of a fetus in the womb.

I never realized until today just how MUCH I don't want kids.
lucizoe
oooh, treehugger. I'm jealous of your tubal. I am so terrified of surgery of any sort. I know I should do it eventually, just for the extra assurance and in case I wind-up assaulted and pregnant and living in America *rolls eyes*

I'm lucky though; Mr.Luci has his first pre-snippage appointment next week. And he's so excited about it that he's practically floating. He's walking around the apartment singing "I'm going to the dick doctor soon! I'm going to get snipped! You're going to be in so much trouble!!"

Hee. He's cute.
treehugger
yeah, lucizoe, that was my big clincher...when SD illegalized abortions EVEN IN THE CASE OF RAPE, my red flag went up and I said, "screw this".

My b/f is excited about my tubal too...he keeps telling me I'm gonna be in trouble as well!

Doc said kind of a funny today. He was telling me what to do after, he said, "avoid intercourse for two weeks"...and a couple other things and then he said, "you have to still use birth control for two weeks".. heh. like, um....isn't abstinance birth control? He laughed at that and said, yeah he supposed I didn't have to worry about birth control.

So anyway, I posted earlier that I'd keep this thread filled in about my tubal experiences and this was the first one!

ginger_kitty
treehugger, how funny that your doctor thought maybe you had changed your mind.

Lucizoe, I have been living in ignorant bliss, knowing sometime in the near future(Crossing my fingers) that my husband is going to get the snip and I would be ridded of baby worries for life. I never considered the posibility of getting raped and becoming knocked up.

Damn!!! @*&?!!!!!
doodlebug
I guess these doctors feel they have to always keep making sure that we don't want to fulfill our biological destiny as breeders for the state women. Too bad they don't keep asking women whether they're ok with the other medical treatments and procecures that they practically push onto women, like hysterectomies, mastectomies, anti-depressants, etc. /end personal rant

The whole situation for women and reproductive choice in the U.S. frightens me, from the perspective of a Canadian. Maybe it's just that I've read too much Margaret Atwood, but it really creeps me out. I can't believe women aren't pouring into the street in protest.
lucizoe
oh, doodlebug, if our stolen elections didn't make us take up arms against an illegal government, why would threats to our lives make us? tsk tsk, remember, you're talking about Americans here.

*sigh*
turbojenn
count me in among those excited for treehugger's tubal!! Is your insurance paying for it? I just have no idea if they'd cover it, since it is "elective." I'd say it saves insurance companies a helluva lot of money in the long run, but what do I know.

A tubal is becoming more and more attractive...I'm listening to the audio book of "Eat, Pray, Love" - its a travel memoir, but the woman writing it talks about turning 30 and the premise of her life with her husband - get married, buy a house, have a baby after they turn 30 - just no longer applied. She even tries to get pregnant and is so happy each month when she is not pregnant, as if she gets to keep her life for one more month....and finally realizing that it was OK not to want kids and in the end leaving her marriage....but it was just re-affirming in the sense of that small voice inside that still says "well, maybe I *will* want kids one day."

Its so helpful to have this suportive space here.

All I know is, I've got 3 beautiful greyhounds draped all over my floors for the weekend, and I couldn't think of anything much better....
treehugger
Aww, I don't mind the doctor asking me if I was *sure*. It's something a lot of women are ambivalent about. I know I spelled that wrong. I think, anyway.

You had to be there, I guess. He didn't ask it in a way that seemed disapproving, but more in a way that he knew it was a big decision. It just *felt* that way to me, anyway.

But, yes, it does strike me as being overcautious on his part to make absolutely sure I'm sure. Perhaps because it *is* being covered by insurance?

It totally amazes me but my insurance is covering it 100%! No co-pay, no nothing. Absolutely free. Yay! I was a little surprised they'd cover it totally. I could have sworn it would be like pulling teeth...although I do have some medically valid reasons for avoiding reproducing, they mean NOTHING compared to my mind-set.

So, next Thursday is D-day. I'll be blogging and will keep you posted regarding pain, etc. Maybe it will help those of you trying to decide whether or not to do it.

As of now my doctor told me there will be only one incision, through the belly button. Unless there are complications which could happen because I have scar tissue from an old hernia surgery.

He says he always schedules them (tubals) on Thursdays on a day-surgery basis; and that most women are okay to go back to work on Monday. I told him that I work a physical job and that I would probably need light duty for a week or so. I figure if I can't have sex, I probably shouldn't be lifting a hundred pounds. He said he'd write me a note.

*I guess most women he's used to seeing, don't work as physical of jobs*

And another thing I thought was creepy/oppressive about the whole thing...my HMO works also with a hospital that happens to be catholic, and this hospital does most of their surgeries...although for my tubal I have to go to a different hospital that they only use for tubals and vasectomys, because "Saint Mary's is Catholic and won't do any kind of sterilization procedures..."

Ick. But this other hospital does ALL the tubals for my HMO so I guess they must know what they're doing. I hope. Heh...
misspissed
woo-hoo, treehugger! please keep us filled in on your tubal details.

one of my favorite quotes of all time is:

"what is stopping you from doing something so cool that it renders you immortal?"

i take that quote to mean it is within our actions and creations (not necessarily producing children) that immortality lies. whether it be art we create, words we write, songs we compose, i believe in these things lie the seeds of our immortality.

so, what is gonna make YOU immortal?

corny, yes. but that's my 2 cents on living forever :-)

i keep telling my mom that i don't think i want kids, and she keeps acting like i am nuts.

eh. when will the woman get the point? when i go through menopause?
lucizoe
"so, what is gonna make YOU immortal?"

Meh, I plan on being the first person on record to spontaneously combust during a panic attack.
doodlebug
"so, what is gonna make YOU immortal?"

I went to jail for a cause. Does that count? I'm not sure I'm going to consider it immortality until there's an ugly statue of me on the Legislature lawn.

LOL @ lucizoe!
cloverbee
I still don't get it. Why oh WHY do people want kids????
I will remain immortal as having the lowest score ever recorded for the GRE exam.
venetia
I am mortal. Which is fine by me.
obelix
Same here, venetia. I have no desire whatsoever to attain immortality, through children or otherwise. There are so damned many of us on this planet.
misspissed
i want an ugly statue of me somewhere :-)
and cloverbee, i might be your competition on that GRE score.

i guess my point is there are so many other ways to attain some kind of immortality (if you so desire) without necessarily having children.

i am undecided if i have any real drive to be immortalized somehow. this whole conversation sounds a little too "interview with the vampire" for me now. i am getting creeped out.

anyway.
my latest pet peeve is getting almost run over by strollers on a daily basis. have you guys ever seen the double and triple strollers??? these are the equivelant of SUVs in the stroller world...hot damn.
faerietails
I am so glad I didn't have to take my GRE. I'm totally screwed when I have to apply to doctoral programs, though. By then I'll have forgotten everything...and then I will have the lowest score ever! ;)
treehugger
misspissed, you haven't lived until you go to the farmers market in my city...between the strollers and the dogs, I end up with bruised calves every time!

They shouldn't allow the &*(&(%^&% things there. Seriously, the farmers market is so crowded, would it kill them to put the kid in one of those backpack or frontpack thingies?

And my immortality is in the buildings I had a part in building.
pollystyrene
My dad and I came up with some acronym a few years ago at Irish Fest in Milwaukee for all of the stroller-pushers there...I can't remember what it was exactly- Stupid Oblivious Stroller Pushing Yuppies or something like that because the place is PACKED with people and they just walk along, talking, looking at things, meanwhile cutting people off in the flow of traffic and bumping into people. Grr.
turbojenn
So, I was at my fave thai spot for lunch today, its always packed with business people at lunch hour, and this mother comes in with her 5 year old son, and she's already yelling at him...the whole place goes silent and stares. She then launches into what she'd like to order, whilst her son is hopping around yelling how he needs to take a pisssssss, all the while grabbing his penis through his shorts. Charming little asshole in training, I'd say. Mom paid no attention until she was quite done with her order, and then yelled at him again....no wonder the kid couldn't behave, mom couldn't either.

Yeah, I don't think the double-wide strollers should be allowed in crowded places - its bad enough on sidewalks, but at city festivals and farmers markets....ugh. At the very least, parents should pay attention to their surroundings...the moms at the market pushing their strollers and talking on their cell phones....they're the worst. They're probably SUV drivers too.
katiebelle2882
SO agree about the strollers. people think that since they have a child they are allowed to be rude and take up more space than in necessary. its disgusting. they think they should always get to go first and given the right of way bc they have procreated. most of the time the kids are little brats anyway.
obelix
I'm starting to get the "you need to have a baby" talk at work. I told a few coworkers about the relationship ending because of my non-breeder status, and I've now had FIVE different women tell me that I'll change my mind.

I go through my standard responses:
"I've never wanted kids, ever. For my whole life. Ever. Really."
"I spent three and a half years trying to convince myself that I wanted kids while I was dating the greatest guy on earth. That's why we're not together now."
"I don't LIKE children."

Yet the officemates chuckle, and tell me I'll change my mind. I smile and keep my mouth shut, and inwardly gloat that if I wanted to I could go out to a bar tonight and bring home some hairy goat-looking undergrad, because I have no children. Or take a two-hour bath in complete silence. Whichever.
cloverbee
I hear you obelix. It's like what will it take to convince these people??
the neighbor kids are irritating the #$&% out of me!! I'm trying to take a nap and every time I get good and dreamy one of them screams, for no reason whatsoever. just cuz they can. AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!! I thought I was childfree and didn't have to deal with this bull but I guess nobody is truly childfree b/c we all have to put up w/ everyone elses kids.
Every single day my conviction gets stronger and stronger that I do not ever want children. not only that but I don't want to have to depend on a man, ever.
pollystyrene
Earplugs, cloverbee, earplugs. Naps taken with earplugs and eyemasks are the BEST! I call them sensory deprivation naps....too bad I misplaced my eyemask in the course of moving. I've got to make another one! (Yes, I make my own because the ones you buy are always made with synthetic "satin" or something, and it makes my skin break out. And they're too small. I make them oversized, out of a towel and natural cotton batting.)
turbojenn
a small white noise machine can be very helpful as well, or play some soft meditation music. I have to have white noise on in order to sleep, it can get noisy around here, particularly in summer - our condo is right above the public patio, dumpsters, and hose for car washing - lucky us! So there's always lots going on.

I also have just shifted my thoughts on noice as well, to enjoy the sounds of kids having fun....its really helped me enjoy my home more....now if I hear kids fighting, I will go outside and kindly ask them to either work it out or take their angry asses elsewhere.

And I also keep a set of earplugs next to my bed - invaluable little buggers. ;)
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