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Full Version: BUSTing Trolls, Part Deux
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mornington
what bunny said, deschat. I eat them when I have a migraine (seriously, the sugar helps) and they're coated in sugar.
deschatsrouge
I have never had Roundtree. I like the Nestle Fruit Tips, they come in black current flavor.
mornington
i don't know if you can get rowntrees in the states, deschat. but the blackcurrent ones are rather yummy, so maybe they're secretly the same thing. *shrug*

I have just felt a pig's snout and had my fingers gummed by him. I feel the need to share this news. It was really oddly hard - the round front bit - and all snotty.
bunnyb
Rowntree are a UK company, deschatsrouge, and were bought over by nestle so they may be one in the same as there is a blackcurrant flavour.

Pigs are cute smile.gif. what does "gummed" mean though? (I read the same on your blog and wondered).
ms.gb
how old was the pig, mornington? i've had pigs...i love their noses...all hard yet pliable...like a piece of rubber.
mornington
adolescent, I'd say, ms gb. I wasn't listening... but he wasn't a big pig. He was such a sweetheart! I like pigs individually, but I'm not keen on large-scale pig farming. he looked just like babe the sheep-pig though smile.gif

bunny, gumming is like chewing, except without teeth - this little piggy didn't have any teeth in the part of his mouth where he was mouthing me. it's what babies do.
pepper
Troll Alert:
POfeminist has posted a nasty to me in the mama's thread and another to someone else in the committed thread. see for yourself but i'm using the ignore function for this one.

reminds me of psychofemme, come to think of it...
auralpoison
You know what? I hate the fear of open, honest discussion, & the fear of confrontation that has come to permeate this place. How nobody even gets the courtesy of the benefit of the doubt anymore or at least a PM expressing displeasure so that things can be worked out without involving the whole fucking Lounge. Histri-fucking-onic much, people*? It reminds me of junior high sometimes, I swear to cod.

Do I think it was kosher for a newbie to go after the same person in two different threads so harshly? Well, no & yes. She did hurt Pepper's feelings & nobody likes that. There could have been more diplomacy, compassionate wording & factual investigation involved. But she thought she could speak freely of her mind, so she did. I am mindful of the fact that this is the intarwebs, so sometimes folks just cut loose in a way that's not done in IRL. But she *did* apologize, admitted herself that she was being way harsh, & I think she’ll try to be a little more judicious in her wording in the future if we give her half a chance. I also think she'll block Pepper & they will be able to coexist in the Lounge peacefully like fighting fish in a large double bowl with the ignore blocking each other out.

*Note that I said people & not *Pepper*. I’m just using this current situation as an example of the fighting I’ve been witnessing around here as of late, not calling out any specific parties.

Although, I do think the Hummingbird situation was a good one resolved. We needed that venomous, hate-mongering, just plain evil little person out of our midst & we presented a pretty unified front while she hurled insults & epithets.
pepper
ap, her first post was to me, the second was a smack down to some one else in another thread. until i read that i Did say i was giving her a second chance to prove that she was really interested in some dialogue here but she very quickly proved to me that she wasn't. and where did she appologize, exactly? i read some more insults and name calling when last i checked.
whatever, i'm not into it. i don't have a problem with conflict, a difference in opinion is interesting and worth discussing as far as i'm concerned. blatant attacking and bad manners are something entirely different.
bunnyb
ap, thanks for bringing hummingbird up. when that whole vicious little debacle went down I came in here (the troll thread, after all) and posted a troll alert, pepper called me out on it quite confrontationally and, yet, pepper posted a public service announcement in the community forum about this recent shit stirrer.

pepper, I am by no means defending what she said to you or getting involved in that little drama, I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy tongue.gif .
katiebelle2882
that hummingbird shit was outta control. glad shes gone. i think bunnyb, what the hypocrisy is, is that what hummingbird was saying was outright racist disgusting things while what PO said was something well written and somewhat thoughtful-albeit not diplomatic at all. i agree with the whole, just bc you dont agree with them doesn't make them a troll. I most certainly dont agree with posting in multiple threads that there is a "troll alert" unless its someone like hummingbird or weprevail. seriously, its so high school. let people see and make their own assumptions before you desperately try to rally people around you to your cause. we are all intelligent adults here who can come to their own conclusions.

if you look in the other thread she took it back a bit pepper (committed thread).

I won't defend what she said either, but i will absolutely defend her right to say it without people putting her on ignore bc what she says may not be your cup of tea.
bunnyb
yeah, katiebelle, I think the hypocrisy is that it's okay to give someone the benefit of the doubt when she's spewing racist shit that is directed at the majority of BUSTies but it's okay to label someone a troll when she's saying something not very nice about one specific person.
mandolyn
i'm still smarting over pepper's role in the hummingbird debacle. but if someone delurked just to target me, i'd be scared & pissed enough to put people on alert too.

not saying it's right or wrong. just saying.
pepper
at the time what i said about hbird was that we should give her a second to prove herself, and she did. that's exactly what people are saying about this one, give her a second to prove herself, and she did too. i Never attacked you over hbird, i didn't call you names or insult you at all. i spoke to you personally girl, like i actually cared about the situation. and when she turned utterly nasty i conceded that she was best ousted from the forum entirely. the difference there was that she was a member of this community and even though she had been fiesty before that she hadn't been outright horrible. when she snapped it was out of character and seemed to me to be a hurt, frustruated reaction to something. all i wanted to do was give her a chance to explain herself, appologize and move on. it didn't work. i thought you and i had good dialogue about it at the time. yes, you came in here and announced that hbird had become a troll but i thought it was premature at the time. this girl however made her first two posts nasty and insulting. similar but different.
bunnyb
not that this should be a high school taking sides, well she did this, she said that but, mando, you (and faith) were targeted by hummingbird and you were more than scared and pissed off (rightly so) but not many publicly had your back.

I think PO's comments were nasty and she appears to have something against pepper and if it was me then I would be pissed off too but I wouldn't be taking it over the board making it a drama. It reminds me of the asshat debacle, although that was scarier because he took on pepper's persona rather than just expressed opinions others didn't like.

eta: yes pepper, we did have good dialogue at the time and hopefully we can this time. I understand that you are probably smarting at the nasty things that have been directed at you -unprovoked- and I don't want to add to that.
katiebelle2882
mando- I agree that I would be pissed if it was directed at just me (scared not so much), however, I would let things pan out. Some of the things she said about you pepper were hateful and mean, some were observations that werent hateful or mean, just not something you would agree with.

In the other thread (committed), her second posting did make sense to me, even if it's not something I agree with. While her posts were extraordinarily direct, I don't think it was ever "nasty" in the committed thread.

lets just see what happens- I don't think she is going to target you the entire time, i think perhaps she made a poor choice with her first posting and now you think shes out to get you.
pepper
kb, each statement she made about me in the mama thread was incorrect. she had every, single fact wrong. everything. while i might agree with some of her "observations" about becoming a parent in dire circumstances, what she described as my situation and her justification for recommending that i have an abortion were totally incorrect and way out of line. i consider the whole thing hateful and mean, especially the abortion part, i mean Come On!
and telling someone in relationship crisis to get a grip, that they are a whiner and that they are too young at 28 to know what they really want and that "kids fuck up your life" is what you call direct? i'd call that bit of advice something else, personally. as a second post it sure was a character reveal.
i don't think she's out to get me, and frankly i don't care if she is. but i do think that type of posting is uncalled for and nasty. maybe she'll watch her step from now on, but maybe not.
katiebelle2882
I do agree with the assessment of her post towards you. However (in the committed thread), I believe she said that maybe he didnt know what he wanted. I wholeheartedly agree that pressuring someone to enter into a serious committment bc you want children is not the way to go about it, and can indeed end up with them resenting you in the end. I do agree that the therapists advice was spot on, and that perhaps it was just something she didnt want to hear. And, certainly someone who is concerned with having children does owe it to themselves to be in a relationship where two people agree! i know i have been in a place where the truth is something you most certainly do not want to hear, and will convince yourself otherwise.

would i have said it like she did. no way. in fact, i am not in that position so really, i wouldnt have said anything at all. but i dont think what she said to you was really ok at all. mostly, i am just advocating on not putting her on troll alert at this particular moment. thats all! hope everyone is having a good weekend:)
free_spirit
I think a majority is in agreement that she could have chosen her words better.
I do not think that she is a troll just because she jumped right in and said what she had to say.

When I first read her post in the "not so wee" thread she seemed more like someone who may post under another name and recently created this one to post under as well. (I immediately thought she could have been Hummingbird)

I personally applaud her honesty.

I feel that this board has turned into a lot of high school cliques, with high school like drama.

I feel that people post things in a public forum but as soon as they get a reply that they do not like they take it personally, get upset, and defensive.
*WE ALL KNOW THAT EVERYONE IS NOT ALWAYS GOING TO AGREE WITH EVERYONE*
(This is not directed at you Pepper, I'm moreso refering to the old situation with Minx and Wombat in the Okay thread. ) When Wombat said something that Minx didn't like, Minx straight cursed her out and told her not to comment on her posts....
For whatever reason, I particulary noticed that that spat was not dealt with in the same ways that I have seen other disagreements in this lounge be dealt with. To me that was extremely HYPOCRITICAL (good looking Bunny) wink.gif . (Sp?...I so hope I spelled that right since I'm all trying to put it in CAPS LOL)

But anyway, all of that is to say that there is a lot of hypocrisy *and* people trying to rally and gang up on other posters in this lounge. I never said it before because I didn't want to be the odd WOman out, but now its like whatever, I'm just going to say it.

At this point, I used to really love this lounge. Hearing about all the different women on here, etc. There are some really smart people who post here...But honestly, I just read in here now half the time just to get a good laugh. Because a lot of posters seem phony and its hilarious to see how grown women seem to resort back to their old HS days.
bunnyb
freespirit, you may want to edit it to hypocritical to make your point. Hippocratic refers to the oath those in the medical profession take. That isn't a dismissive correction either.

I applaud your comments; there are a lot of people who have defected from the lounge or are posting less because of the way people have been behaving recently. I'll admit to be being bored of this happening every month.
wombat
Yes, I don't think there is anyone here who is so high-holy the boss of the lounge that they can feel free to criticize, diaagree with, and judge others posts, and then get all righteously, chest-thumpingly, preaching from the soapbox angry when someone disagrees with THEIR post.

There is noone I have taken to task that has not taken to me to task before.

So, even though I may be saying something they don't want to hear, well, are we here to build each other's strenghts against this woman-dismissing society, or are we here to just encourage each other to wallow about in illusion?

I agree with AP and bunnyb and free_spirit (and pepper for that matter) about confronting when it seems appropriate and not just making fakey-nice or leaving, or, god help us, having cliques of bullies and a little audience of submissives. In life sometimes that happens, it doesn't have to be the situation in a place where we are not controlling each others' money/job/residence/relationships, and just choose to come freely in our spare time.

I have had dust-ups with bunnyb and AP and still like them both, I often agree with them and express my agreement. I think they can trust my praises and agreements since they know I'm not a big suck-up.

Im glad we're all hanging in here, because, as I started saying long ago, Bust is magic!!
katiebelle2882
I have to agree with free spirit when she says that if something is posted on a public forum then really, it is out there for anyone to comment and/or disagree with. there is a way to go about that and there is a way to do it that will not immediately garner negative attention. There are more then a few people here who can dish it well but cant take it at all.

free spirit, i think that was one of the best, most honest things we have seen here in a long time. great post!

wombat-this was a great line:

"So, even though I may be saying something they don't want to hear, well, are we here to build each other's strenghts against this woman-dismissing society, or are we here to just encourage each other to wallow about in illusion?"

sometimes i see posters dealing with the same problem over and over again. they keep doing the same dumb thing over and over again and they write about the same thing over and over again. most of the time, busties are dealing with it patiently and offering heartfelt advice about how to deal with it and how its ok blah blah blah. sometimes, it's just NOT ok and they need to be told flat out that they are being dumb. being an enabler never helped anyone break out of a vicious cycle. fakey-nice as wombat put it can be more disgusting and condescending then the flat out nasty ass truth. (not talking about this particular incident with pepper).

of course, there are some nicer ways to say these things. then again, sometimes there just isnt.
pixiedust
I think people need to remember that we only know about what other people chose to post about on here. I don't think anyone can make a good judgement about someone's lifestyle, parenting style ect unless we are personally and intimately involved in their lives.
Lots of us use this place to vent about things going on in our lives...or to talk about the really great things. But most of us do not post about our everyday, day to day stuff. You can't take a few highs and lows and string them together and get an accurate opinion of anyone or any situation.
When it comes to motherhood, there is nothing that can be said, no matter how well meaning or unjudgemental that is NOT going to be taken personally because a mother is almost always second guessing herself anyway. It's nature..not even just human nature..you don't mess with mother animals that have babies.
wombat
Mom's always right? No criticism ever? My depressive, narcissist mother would agree.

But that's not nice for the kids. Having been the kid in that situation, I have something to say and will say it.

Many people here have become depressives and had kids, not many have been the next generation, with all the family resourcess drained.

I don't want to make them feel worse, and I don't agree with stigma or adding to it.

But if I see a line being crossed, well, it's information they need. I know it's hard, and I know I get too defensive and aggressive too, but, the animal instinct kicks in for SELF preservation as well.
mandolyn
i'll gladly take advice from friends who know and love me. that includes select busties. nastyass holier-than-thou internet strangers with their own agendas whose advice i didn't solicit? not so much.

and yes, if it's on a public message board, it's out there for all to see and comment on.
but anyone who lurks here long enough - and who has half a brain - knows that this place is not your average public message board. support comes in many different forms in here. one person's coddling may be someone else's calm port.

but, you know, those of you who feel the need to spew the tough love at any price ... feel free. i have every right to put you on the very tippy top of my shitlist if you're rude and condescending. it's what i do to real life abrasive asshats too.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(pepper @ Nov 12 2006, 02:22 AM) *

Troll Alert:
POfeminist has posted a nasty to me in the mama's thread and another to someone else in the committed thread. see for yourself but i'm using the ignore function for this one.

reminds me of psychofemme, come to think of it...



THAT'S IT! I think it is her! I have a knack for identifying past trolls with new handles. As soon as I saw a post by her, ripping into you, Pepper, it smelled really familiar.
bunnyb
well, funnily enough, psychicfemme showed up on the users online list yesterday...

eta: and now. *waves*
girlygirlgag
There is a HUGE difference between being constructively critical and being rude. You can get a good point across, on a sensitive subject, without sounding like a complete jerk. PO, IMO, is trying to be a jerk, albeit condescending.

You don't talk to strangers like that unless you want to risk being called the troll. Even in RL, I get annoyed with people who are outright rude, but claim , to call it how they see it, and if people don't like it, that is their problem. Screw that mentality. I have no problem for standing up for yourself, etc, but this lady has some issues. With Pepper especially.

blegh, I just re-read some of psychofemme's posts from the summer, what a nut job. They do have the same tone of hostility as in PO's posts, though.

blegh, I just re-read some of psychofemme's posts from the summer, what a nut job. They do have the same tone of hostility as in PO's posts, though.
grenadine
QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Nov 13 2006, 12:59 PM) *

There is a HUGE difference between being constructively critical and being rude. You can get a good point across, on a sensitive subject, without sounding like a complete jerk. PO, IMO, is trying to be a jerk, albeit condescending.


exactly. what was going on there looked like DEstructive criticism to me. it's okay to want to straighten people out, but if your way of doing it is so ham-fisted that you completely fail to communicate your point (assuming you have one), then you've failed. POfeminist is, in my opinion, failing to communicate.

i do think that AP and others raise an interesting point about disagreement on the boards. i've been around for years, but i rarely post - partially because i sometimes feel lots of yea-saying is required. to a degree i accept that as part of the culture of the boards - and i even see how it works better if people are perhaps over-positive to each other, since there are no tonal or nonverbal cues. but it's disappointing to me that the choice sometimes seems between being a "bitch" (not my favourite term, regardless of its reappropriation by women) and being insincere.
HOWEVER, i don't agree that bringing up that point in connection to the recent brouhaha with POfeminist is the most apropos - those posts were too egregiously angry, thoughtless, and destructive to illustrate this point well. as for "well written" - there were numerous typos and errors of the sort that made me think the typist was *seething* with self-righteous rage as she wrote.
it hardly invites dialogue, does it.
pepper
that's exactly what i was thinking. who steps into a forum straight off and posts like that, calling someone's parenting down and telling someone else to "get a grip"? that's not exactly how you say hello for the first time.
as for targetting me, i was the first to dub her psycho so...remember when i thought she might be the nutbuster? is it just that all trolls sound totally alike to me or what? the nutty one used to post all kinds of half right facts too. maybe they went to troll school together. ha ha.
grenadine
maybe you have troll-dar. tongue.gif
maddy29
first of all, i think that this is the only appropriate place for these discussions to happen. the troll thread is to discuss this (not pie! smile.gif hee hee)

i have to say, i'm surpised and sad that so many people are feeling like bust is a place where people just "go along with each other.' I've been in many many disagreements with busties! And they were all worked out in some way-pepper and i pm'd for quite a while about the childfree by choice thread, and i think it was good for both of us. sometimes, I just have to let stuff go, because i know that the other poster/s just will NEVER see where i'm coming from. so, i chalk it up as a learning experience...

i think it's good to call each other on stuff, but that's really not what this board is about. plus, each thread has it's own feel and kinda informal rules around it. for anyone to come into a new community and immediately blast a long-term member of that community is just ridiculous. fine, she disagrees with pepper's lifestyle and her choices, who the fuck cares? i mean, pepper doesn't give a shit, she wasn't asking for advice or opinions.

and what she wrote was NOT well written-i'm getting really fucking sick of people being just ASS OUT RUDE and calling it tough love, or "the truth." i tell the truth all the time but i don't have to call people names to do it. honestly, i think that if you can't say something in a decent, civil way, then you are just being lazy-too lazy to really think about it. it's a whole lot easier to judge someone without knowing the details, then it is to open your mind....

and re: mom's are always right in pixie's post-i think she was referring to the bustie mom's thread- no one should be going in there picking on moms, just like no one should be going into the childfree by choice thread yelling at us that we should have kids.....at least that's how i read it-i'm sure pixie didn't mean that mom's are always right smile.gif
wombat
Yeah, Maddy, (and Pixie!) I thought Pixie's point about Mom's always second-guessing themselves was a good one. And I agree that invading a topic of discussion in that fashion is bad. And I hope no-one thinks I was sticking up for POfeminist, who really does seem like a troll.

I'm also not setting myself up as the judge of mothers, or with an axe to grind for or against mothers in general. And, when I say, sometimes someone needs to hear something they don't want to hear, I didn't mean that I'm in favor of a person just blasting criticism. Haven't we all had family members or co-workers like that? "But I'm just the kind of person who says what I think, I can't help it if people are intimidated!"

The test of that, the way to tell the difference between constructive criticism, or a necessary statement, and someone just being a rude person, to me, is: what is the overall content of what they say? Do they also "just level with you" about GOOD things about you too? Do they see good things? Are they open to admitting their own faults? Are they open to resolving whatever it is they object to with the other person, considering the fact that the other person may have things in their past or present life that affect the situation?

I would say that most of us here on Bust do pass that test -- reluctant to criticize but sometimes criticize, maybe "flare-up" but apologize later, for the most part look for the good in others.

It's funny, because in a way the internet is a place for people to be more intimate and candid, and yet, there is the fact that real-life people will stumble upon it, and they are not always friends. I know we rallied around pixiedust when her asshat ex-husband started posting on here, and, for the most part, I rally around Minx about her asshat ex-husband too, I just had a disagreement with her when I thought she was being naive about some issues. I don't think I'm policing her or anyone else, nor do I want to shoulder that burden. dry.gif

Police, me am not no.

I guess it's naive to expect people NOT to be into power politics wherever they go, but, it is a drag when it rears its ugly head. Who's doing it and who's starting it and how they're doing it and how legitimate they are, etc, can certainly be up for debate.

usually a long, tiresome, debate dry.gif

At a certain point, there are simply people that put some time and commitment into being here and making it as good, fun, etc. as possible. Maybe we will lose some along the way. Shame, unless they really don't like it here, and then, well, it makes sense they would go.
maddy29
word wombat. word word word.

also, with your new picture-you look exactly like an old friend! like, EXACTLY! freaked me out a bit.....(she is also gorgeous...)
pixiedust
Umm..I'm not sure how my post is being interpreted as saying mothers are always right....but since it is I will clarify what I actually meant. I edited it a couple of times because this is a subject near and dear to me and I didn't want to bring on flames. My point was that criticisming someones parenting skills, is extreamly personal! When it happened to me a while back it hurt worse than anything I could have imagined, because people involved knew NOTHING about me or my situation and chose to pick apart certain things I had posted and twisted them. I know a lot of people wouldn't agree with me...that nothing should be off limits on here, but I feel that criticising someones parenting skills is pretty taboo. Unless they are specifically asking for help.
I'm kind of with Mandolyn..if someone I know and trust on here tells me something in a pm in a non judgemental way, I'll take their insight into consideration, but if someone I don't know publically calls my parenting skills into question, I won't be receptive to anything they say even if they are right and have a valid insight.
bunnyb
I think there are boundaries on BUST that shouldn't be crossed (or if they are then not in a rude way; although sometimes whatever is being bluntly said is not going to sound nice however it is sugared, or not). Some people forward their opinions when they're not asked for and I know that others may appreciate this but some take it to heart. For instance, in the workplace would you tell someone you didn't know that you think she shouldn't keep her baby?

I think mando is right too: if you are going to post "the truth" then maybe PM it instead? I would certainly balk at any unsolicited opinion/observation about my life on a public forum whereas if someone was concerned enough to approach me by personal message I would be more receptive to what they had to say.
pepper
i don't know, even from a stranger if something was presented in a helpfully questioning way i would read it and hear the message. calling me a bunch of nasty names (uneducated, poor, on welfare etc) that in no way reflect my actual situation though, well, i'm not so open to that. even after i clarified that there was not even a hint of any kind of retraction or apology, just more justification for why that person thought my baby would be better off as an abortion of put up for adoption. i mean, wtf? every single point that was made about WHY i shouldn't have another baby was based on an incorrect assuption but still, even though ALL of that was wrong i still should have an abortion? sounds like a personal attack to me. i'm a freaking Fabulous parent as far as i'm concerned, i mean of course i'm not perfect but where does anyone get the idea that i can't take care of my kids? Where?!? only in their own crazy minds.

there are a lot of nicey nice people here, for sure. we're like girlfriends a lot of the time. so what? when it comes right down to it i've seen the nicest of the nice throw down with their true feelings, nice or not. hey, this is Bust, not Bitch so it's fine with me if people err on the side of nice. and even though i personally like the truth at any cost i still think you don't have to be an asshole to be honest.
bunnyb
pepper, I've said this before but you are a thicker-skinned woman than me! if anyone (other than my nearest and dearest) told me to abort/adopt a baby and questioned my RIGHT to be a mother then I would throw them down. eta: in fact, even if they were my loved ones. I don't think that opinion can be justified. No-one should say that to an expectant mother.
pepper
well, i dunno. it pissed me off for sure. but it came from who knows where, some total jerk who doesn't know thing one about me as far as i can tell so really, why take that to heart? now if a friend said something like that to me i'd flip out. first because i was offended and then because i'd be wracking my brain trying to figure out what i did that made them think that. i'd still look for the truth in the situation even if it hurt. i mean, if i was really a bad person or parent i'd want to know about it so i could fix it. i hafta go make a lego castle now...
maddy29
yeah, i mean that was just wrong. wrong wrong wrong. not feminist, either. i mean, i don't think anyone can argue that telling a woman what to do with her body and life is feminist....right?

bunnyb
true, her opinion isn't worth shit (yes, yes, everyone has a valid opinion but when it's presented that way? when it's so vitriolic) but my argument is that even if she had been nice and had valid points (e.g. you didn't make your kid a hallowe'en costume, you bad parent! whereas*we* know you made a fabulous one) I still don't think that BUST is the type of community where it should be ok to publicly post in a thread: pepper, I think you should have an abortion because [justification here]. I don't want to be part of something where someone finds that acceptable to say to a stranger. Maybe that's just me, I like my line between online and IRL. Does this make sense?

eta: xposted with maddy. exactly! it's certainly not a feminist comment!
pepper
ok, i'm hearing that. telling someone to have an abortion is just as bad (worse?) than telling someone who wants one not too. who's call is that? not a casual outside observer, that's for sure.
no, it's worse to tell someone to have an abortion. that's really bad. the more i think about it the more offensive it gets. yuck.
bunnyb
It's sick and crossing that line I'm referring to (it's as bad as jesus guy posting pics but different). Note: I am saying that it is sick to tell a happily pregnant woman to have an abortion, not that abortions are sick - I am pro-choice. Btw, how did she even know? I completely missed that you were pregnant and congrats! there are going to be a few BUSTie mamas next year.
pepper
thanks! i'm pretty dang happy about it. i posted it here and there but it's pretty recent so i'm not surprised you missed it. bet everyone knows now though eh? well, yay me. the nausea sucks though.
pherber
Sorry to go on about it, but as someone who can lose her temper pretty quickly, I have to say, it's not so hard to say, "I'm pissed off with this!" So the person has a chance to respond and anyone who's resorting to such nasty personal insults, is just a troll and the public stoning critisicsm in the newbies thread were a bit silly, because this is a self-moderated forum and not a non-moderated forum. It's nothing to do with taking sides like in high school cliques, to dismiss anti-feminist garbage IMHO.

I was also really annoyed with the "most people here are just fake friendly, to avoid confrontation" critisicm.
Speaking of fake friendliness... how's that for avoiding confrontation?
How cowardly is it, to just make these general assumptions and just dismiss the majority of forumers? They're hardly in a position to defend themselves.

Sorry, I know you've moved on in this discussion, but yesterday I was too angry to post much.
maddy29
i agree pherber. we are a self-moderated forum, so we are in charge of defining how we want this community to be...

i also didn't understand the fakey-nice thing. i mean, i think most people here ARE nice, but not fake. people disagree all the time. but what happened yesterday wasn't a disagreement, it was a new troll/potential member coming in and bashing a long-time poster. AND being extremely unfeminist in what she was saying, besides the personal attacks. We don't tell women to have abortions. Period. that is NOT feminist.

wombat
Pherber -- as often happens in discussions here -- we're talking about more than one incident, and the two or three incidents/situations we are talking about are different in thier aspects. There is pepper and POfeminist, me and minx, pepper and doodle and some others arguing in the BustSecret thread about childfree by choice, etc.

I agree with you that it should be okay to say I'm pissed off about this, and give the other person a chance to respond, however, recently I was told that I had no right to post that I was "pissed off about this." I have been strong in working it out, but it's true that the more angry the post, the more likely it wll meet with anger in return. I was also feeling stressed and didn't have time and rattled off somethng at the top of my head which was more hostile than would be optimum for opening a discussion. That doesn't mean my content was "wrong" per se, and I reserve the right, as I hope we all do, to speak up for myself in every situation with every person. Abuse is wrong, I don't care who it's coming from, it's wrong, and the whistle should be blown.

But, generally, this board is a forum for sharing fun stuff and supporting each other through vulnerabilities -- a quick read of the thread titles would indicate that general sense of things pretty quickly.

Some of us -- that would include you and me, certainly, are in favor of confrontation, others think it's not polite, others are saying that it's okay to confront but not be mean about it, etc.

This is getting confusing because some people apparently are taking it to mean, "Oh, are you trying to say that someone posting for the first time and calling people names is okay?" no, we're not. Or, "where was the fake niceness in that situation?" Well, there are a lot of situations, not just that one.

Some people are saying that they see people leave because of conflict, and sometimes there is a "gang-up" mentality where people jump into a disagreement between two people just to say, "so and so is *my friend* so you can never criticize or disagree!" no matter what the issue at hand or the merits of the argument.

We're trying to hash out what we believe the rules of confrontation would generally be, so far:

Make sure you know the person and the situation
Don't just have bad things to say
Try to say it in as good a way as possible
Don't just suck it in and feel like some people are above reproach -- no one is.
It's better to confront than to leave feeling misunderstood
Ganging up is not cool
The difference between ganging up and supporting a friend can be a hard one sometimes.

etc.

Not everyone is going to agree what the guidelines are, and, I'm not being pissy at you in this post, it's just, I think there is miscommunication involved, hope I've cleared it up a little.
grenadine
maddy and pherber,

i can't speak for AP or others, but in case what i said was part of what you didn't understand/what pissed you off, let me clarify: i am not saying that "most people here are just fake friendly, to avoid confrontation" at all. what i'm saying is that i rarely post(ed in the past) because i get the vibe that the choice FOR ME is between appearing bitchy, because it's not natural to me to be as effusive/demonstrative/chipper as many, and being insincere. that is what the comments below meant - sorry if it was unclear.

i do think name-calling is best avoided. self-moderated does mean acting like grownups, right? smile.gif

and i also think (as below) that this criticism (if it is a criticism) of the lounge doesn't relate well to the PO situation. as maddy says, "[it] wasn't a disagreement. it was a new troll/potential member coming in and bashing a long-time poster. AND being extremely unfeminist in what she was saying"

word. and it was also just going nowhere.

QUOTE(grenadine @ Nov 13 2006, 01:06 PM) *

i even see how it works better if people are perhaps over-positive to each other, since there are no tonal or nonverbal cues. but it's disappointing to me that the choice sometimes seems between being a "bitch" (not my favourite term, regardless of its reappropriation by women) and being insincere.
HOWEVER, i don't agree that bringing up that point in connection to the recent brouhaha with POfeminist is the most apropos - those posts were too egregiously angry, thoughtless, and destructive to illustrate this point well.
bunnyb
I think fake-nice (if my take on it is correct) was a way of expressing that some people bite their tongues to avoid confrontation. Personally I think that's up to the poster, just as it is IRL; sometimes I have my say and sometimes I let it go and seethe in private and then get over it.
roseviolet
I'm curious about the "fake-nice" thing, too. I tend to be nice to people on these boards, but that's just because that's how I am in real life. There's nothing fake about it. smile.gif

I think the point is very simple: One should behave on the internet the same way that one would in real life. It's Social Interaction 101. The Golden Rule. All of the tried-and-true social rules that have existed for ages. If you behave in a socially unacceptable way in real life, you're bound to face some consequences. Same here.
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