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Full Version: BUSTing Trolls, Part Deux
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culturehandy
Chacha, I'd never seen those commercials. I remember the billboards around here, it was some propaganda The billboards were taken down promptly.
koffeewitch
I still am not understanding why we don't block persistant trolls from their IP address(es). Yes, it can be done...does the office not have the tech savvy? Is there another reason not to block him from the site? Or do we all need to band together and beg collectively for a week-end mod (CH/AP/GT)?

I feel like we have a horny little dog humping at our leg all the time.
chachaheels
Well, all we need are people who are tech savvy.

Or hackers! Hackers willing to work to save the Bust board would be nice! Since no one looking after its operation seems to give a damn.

Ignore and report and demand some moderators who aren't set up to fail, that's the least we can do. And maybe someone with the know how will work her magic.
culturehandy
They did block his ip adress for a while, that's why we were troll free for so long.

I have no idea what happened from there.
candycane_girl
CH, my best guess is that it's simply a new IP address.
pollystyrene
I realized something after being infuriated by the newbie who said they had lost interest in posting here because of the troll activity ...I know that another reason there isn't as much activity on this board is because so many of us have gone over to FB, but the complaint about FB is that it's not conducive to the level of conversation we have here (or try to, when trollie isn't around).

I realized that it could be, though...I participate in a wedding-related app on FB, and their main component is a message board with a similar format to Bust, but it's within FB (y'all should be grateful I have another place to occasionally freak out about the minutiae of wedding planning; no one here should be subjected to that!). One person created the application and he appointed a few members to moderate the conversations...they're more censor-y over there when it comes to content than we'd want to be, but the ability to ban people and delete posts and threads is there. They have relatively few technical problems, even when FB is being wonky, their board seems pretty stable. Every once in awhile, the site goes down. I have zero experience or understanding on what would be involved in setting this up. I've created a group on FB, that's about as advanced as I am.

Obviously, we'd lose the attraction that being a part of Bust magazine has for new people, but could theoretically shift the conversations over there...I'm sure TPTB wouldn't be happy about it and I wonder if we'd have to make some adjustments to avoid any copyright infringement.

I mean, the board is basically just an extra income source for them (with the ads) and a place to find article ideas- it's not like they actually give a shit about us. I've made this point before, but I'm surprised that TPTB aren't more motivated to do something about the trolls when a newbie (or as they would call it, "consumer") blatantly says, "I'm not sticking around because of the troll interference." I'm sure Bust's advertisers wouldn't want to hear about that.

So, what do we think? I can get some more info from the guy who started the app and see what it took to get it up and running. LeBoy's done some websites before and maybe he'd have some insight. Obviously, it would never be the same sad.gif
jsmith
I think you're pretty well on to something, polly. Go to where the troll cannot follow. Hell, that might make TPTB sit up and take notice, and be more proactive about keeping out the riffraff.
pollystyrene
Huh, looked like just mentioning it worked already- account's been deactivated....I'll still do some investigation on the FB front.

candycane_girl
The account has been deactivated but why haven't the posts been cleaned up?

It's really becoming ridiculous. I've tried to stay active as usual but there are times I just want to reach through the computer and rip out Steve's eyeballs then shove em down his throat. He's disruptive and even turning away newbies.

I think the only way TPTB would take notice is if all of us actively moved over to FB and refused to post here anymore unless they let a few people moderate.
pollystyrene
I think it has to be more than letting us moderate- it needs to be anonymous moderation (that would include the ability to deactivate accounts, deleting posts and threads and banning users), and an increase in the minimum number of posts before a new thread can be started. I'm thinking at least 50 posts. At least. Even if a newbie had a good idea for a thread that everyone approved of, couldn't someone else just start it on their behalf?

ETA: Hmm, anyone have the know-how for this? May as well be martian to me.

ETA: Oh, and what about another condition would be that unregistered or new users wouldn't have full-access to the boards? My only worry about that is at first I was thinking Survivor's Space shouldn't be full-access, but I think it could be helpful to someone in need and I wouldn't want to stop someone from being able to see that. Maybe "no" to unregistered, but new people can post?
coffeebean
hmmm. interesting idea Polly! Although I don't think that I would be willing to migrate yet...although I am not sure that my recent presence would really be 'missed' compared to other top posters. There is something I like about the possibility of likeminded women stubling across bust and then joining and adding to the conversations in the lounge. I don't know if the same women would be those who would join on facebook. For example, when I think about my real life friends- there are not many that I would suggest to join the lounge. Not because I don't like them but because they would probably not 'get it' as much. Bust has become a place for me to talk about things that women in my life might not want to talk about/have interest in discussing. Maybe I am wrong though because I am not even a facebook user so I can't really say.

Candy I agree about raising the minimum posts for a new tread to be started. If it really is a good idea for a new thread and everyone agrees then I don't think that it really matters who starts it. Personally, I wouldn't care if I suggested an idea and someone else started it. It is clear after the past few weekends that weekend moderators are necessary if bust does not want to scare new users off. I agree that talking about the trolls takes away from the valid content of the lounge which is what drew me here in the first place.
pollystyrene
Well, joining Facebook solely for the potential Bust group is a possibility- if you're concerned about privacy, just set up an account with a fake name, but we'll all know who you are. I guess that raises another potential issue- I don't think there's a way to post under other names....although some people on the wedding message board do just have a first name showing- not sure how they do that- I just use my real name.
sevenseconds
I know I'm new and this is prolly out of line, but I feel like "the terrorists have won" if you guys do that - I mean move to FB.

Well why don't we move to Second Life then? NO censorship and at least we'll have bodies! And hair blowing in the wind. And the scenery's SO nice.
I'm kidding.

But seriously. I don't have a FB account (I may have made one at some point and forgotten, but I doubt that). I am not interested in having people from my past track me down and make the room awkward. And in my experience you'll only get a bunch of people to move, there will be power issues (who started it, etc). Plus, I am not interested in being in a censored place. So. Do you really want to leave me raging the Lounge alone with my sketchy eurotrash ethics ph34r.gif ? Think again?

PS: (with my best paranoid accent, scratching chin) Unless this whole thing is a ploy to shake me off, hee...

ETA: Why can't we really not comment and not pay attention to the troll, like consistently and for a long time. PM GT or AP or CH or whoever we appoint to deal directly with Debbie etc. But otherwise - not one glance in his direction. He feeds on the smallest comment for days, it's his proof that his crusade's working. And if we do that, it is working. And the girl who gave up had huge issues with the order of the posts too. It wasn't just, um, the Unspeakable.
pollystyrene
Well, after being around for nearly a decade, I can say that the trolls aren't the only problem here. I won't even go into the whole history (though a fraction of the storywas re-hashed around November 10th in this thread if you want to check it out; there's even more to it than that!) but there's basically been a refusal from TPTB to deal with it in a reasonable and effective manner. I mean, girltrouble went through hell trying to get them to do anything and when they did, it was just a giant clusterfuck from the get-go because they handled it so badly.

This board has evolved into something beyond Bust. Most of the people who've been here as long as I have haven't even read the magazine in years and are no longer in their target demographic. That probably has something to do with why we're treated the way we are.

Oh, and maybe I didn't make it clear about the other board- that board censors some content. In no way am I suggesting that a FB-based Bustie message board would do that. I just think it would be good because we, the members, would have the ability to ban users, delete posts and threads, etc.

We've tried the "just don't look" approach. It might mean he posts a few less posts, but he won't go away until they disable him and then he just comes back in a few months because he can count on a newbie to feed his ego and he whips everyone into a tizzy all over again.

I'd like to be heroic and "stiff upper lip" about the whole thing and not let the troll win, but the troll isn't the only one causing the problem here, and if TPTB can't make a few reasonable accommodations for us, then I don't see why I should be subjected to their ads (which are sort of silly anyway- I don't live in NYC, so why do I give a crap about Fringe Salon?)

And no, we're not trying to get rid of you, seven! But y'know, if you don't join FB and the secret clubhouse that already exists there, you won't be able to follow the plans for BustieCon!
sevenseconds
Thanks Polly. You are right, a decade, wow.

I have never read Bust btw, I didn't even know it was a magazine until a month or so after I joined the Lounge.

I just googled "Write a letter you'll never send" because I needed to write one and wanted it to GO somewhere besides my drafts folder. Then AP said Psssst, drop by here and that was the newbie's thread.
I had no clue what I had walked into.
See, that kind of thing - would it be possible to stumble upon this amazing community in such a random way if it's on FaceBook? I am not saying it's not possible, I don't know, I'm asking. Like that wedding board - is it possible to google it/ be lead to it by smell or itch or need and join without knowing anyone? If yes, great, I'll get a FB account the day after tomorrow. If not - it will not be the same.
But Polly, thank you again. And I hope it's the same.

PS: And after I found the letters thread, I saw Rudderless, Girltrouble's letters there and I was like, damn, i wanna hang with these women. Can people read content like that on FB to get a clue of what the water they're jumping in's like? I know that's a sensitive issue, and honestly, now that I'm posting I'd rather outside people didn't read my stuff... But I was very grateful to see it BEFORE i decided I wanted in. See, double standard already. I warned you about me.
pollystyrene
New members finding us on FB as easily as we're found on the regular internet would be a concern. But if people aren't becoming active posters here because of the trolls, what's the difference? There are literally dozens of beloved Busties who posed here 10-12 years ago that left and haven't returned because of the troll problems, and they're now on FB, LiveJournal, even MySpace.

I guess the other option would be to just start a separate site, but someone's gotta have server space and the know-how to set it up. Vintage Busties, didn't something like this exist back under the old (and reliably unstable) software- didn't meerkat set that up?

I think it would be interesting to know how many newbies find us because they read the magazine or just through a search for a particular topic, like you did, seven, or really randomly.
candycane_girl
I think the problem with the trolls is that even if you ignore them, they still start up their own topics and sometimes even post over and over again within that topic just to keep it at the top.

And I'm sure it drives newbies away. I don't know if I would have stuck around here if the first posts I saw were JESUSJESUSJESUS and abortion pictures, etc.

I can understand people not wanting to start a real FB account but I'm sure you could just start one with a pseudonym and never upload any pictures of yourself and use it solely for the message board.

It would be difficult in terms of getting newbies (I'm curious to see what would happen if every time a newbie arrived at the lounge we just directed them to the other site) but who knows, it could work.

7, I understand where you're coming from in terms of feeling like "the terrorists have won" but it's also sending a message to the people in charge of the board. We have tried to be reasonable with them, we've asked for certain things and we have almost always been denied. The best thing to do would be to simply appoint a few busties to be moderators but make it anonymous (so that people can't attack said moderators) and leave it at that. It's so SIMPLE and yet they won't do it. The only conclusion I can come to is that they have major control issues.
pollystyrene
Everything you said, cc_girl.

My guess is that Bust would just shut this down if we were just directing people elsewhere.

Also, if we struck out on our own, we'd lose all the history here. There's a way to archive a site, though, I think.
sevenseconds
There would be no one to "direct" to a new site. No newbies, if no one actively posts here.
People don't come because it's Bust, they come because of the posts. Take that away, no newbies, no problem.

But probably a new group will start here. Nature abhors vacuum.

PS: But I do see your point, and feel your pain, Polly. It must be tiring after years of this.
What if every active Bustie sent Debbie an email demanding a moderator?
jsmith
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Nov 29 2009, 06:39 PM) *


It would be difficult in terms of getting newbies (I'm curious to see what would happen if every time a newbie arrived at the lounge we just directed them to the other site) but who knows, it could work.



I was going to suggest that, maybe someone could check in here daily/weekly/whatever (I wouldn't say no to being that someone) and direct them to the new spot.
If TPTB at Bust want the lounge in order to get ideas for articles, I doubt they would shut it down. Hopefully they would see the sudden absence of posters and decide to be a little more reasonable.
jsmith
You know what's funny? You try to sound intelligent, but you can't even spell the word 'lessen' (among other words, mind you), you capitalize in the wrong places, and you can't string together a sentence that's correct in grammar and punctuation.
I guess I was wrong when I thought that you might become civil. Silly me. You're the same sad, lonely fellow you always were. You are socially retarded, so you have to come here and attack our views in decidedly unintelligent and ineffective ways just to feel like you're having some human interaction. I feel bad for you, pal.
jsmith
You're casting around for something to say here, and it's obvious. Do you mind telling me what exactly you're referring to?
jsmith
Still casting. He has nothing relevant or even fresh to say.

/trollbaiting
candycane_girl
QUOTE(jsmith @ Nov 30 2009, 01:10 AM) *
I was going to suggest that, maybe someone could check in here daily/weekly/whatever (I wouldn't say no to being that someone) and direct them to the new spot.
If TPTB at Bust want the lounge in order to get ideas for articles, I doubt they would shut it down. Hopefully they would see the sudden absence of posters and decide to be a little more reasonable.


J, that's something that really bugs me about Bust and the Lounge. They know that they can come here for new story ideas and I'm sure they do. Heck, a lot of busties even post about what kind of people they would like to see on the cover. Another time they even started a thread called "tell us what busty means", which was annoying because a) they apparently can't figure it out themselves, and b ) they couldn't even bother to spell it "bustie" which is how most of us spell it.

Anyone with an ounce of marketing sense knows that you have to treat your customers right. You want people to come back to the lounge repeatedly so that they'll see your ad? Then show us some respect. Same goes for selling magazines. They have to give the people what they want otherwise the people will move on to something that actually satisfies their wants.
chachaheels
Know what I think would work a little miracle?

Writing to ALL the advertisers on this board--all of them. Telling them their ads are appearing regularly on a BB which does not block trolls from posting anti-abortion photos and propaganda regularly. Telling all the advertisers that they have to be aware that their work will be associated with a forum for the dissemination of that kind of material, and asking them if they truly want to pay to be associated with a medium which promotes misogyny this way.

If you tell an advertiser you won't buy from them until they demand Bust's ptb eliminate all such trolling material, chances are excellent you'll got not only top notch, fully supported moderators here, but you'll get them fast.

TPTB may not value what we are, but let me tell you, the businesses advertising here for our dollars do. They can buy ad space anywhere, and I bet they'll think their ads will look better on a site where they don't have to be featured alongside of Steve.

Brokencherry.com
baublettes.com
fringe.com....etc. etc. etc. They're all here, popping up regularly over all the troll posts which would be so easy to eliminate and erase but rarely are.


It's easy enough to get in touch with them, tell them how they look here next to the bloody fetuses that all the women here want removed, but none of the PTB see fit to remove. Ask them why they think spending their advertising dollars here is still a good idea, after that. Get them to confront TPTB and ask them why they are allowing this kind of material to proliferate on a site they were sold as a good space to feature their ads.

Money talks. If advertisers can't believe the way they're being seen here, they won't advertise here--until they can be sure they won't be associated with what the trolls post here regularly.
rogue
I just wanted to say that I hope no one leaves because of this. I missed this entire conversation this weekend because I'm not usually chained to a computer on the weekends as I am on the weekdays at work, but I still check in when I can. I just don't know what a solution to this would be. Personally, I just ignore him every time he shows up and I never, ever read what he's posted. If he posts a new thread I ignore that too. I definitely understand what you're all saying though - that it should be stopped and I defintiely agree with having an anonymous mod who could take care of it instead of TPTB because they really aren't doing a good job of taking care of this space at all.

I just don't let these kinds of people get me down. If someone has a different opinion than me, that's fine. Trolly-von-troll is allowed to think whatever he wants but his opinions aren't going to stop me from thinking what I want. I believe in a woman's right to choose and if stuck in an unwanted pregnancy I would have an abortion and would never, ever feel guilty about it. But that's just me. It's just the way I am. No troll is going to change my mind, no way, no matter how many fake dead baby photos he posts. I don't know. I guess that's just my two cents. I think everything that has been said here are all good ideas, I just don't want to see the Lounge disappear because of him. I was trying to post something on CCG's Facebook post this morning (but FB was being stupid and wouldn't let me) and it was something along the lines of how much it sucks to have him here because I feel that the Lounge is a safe haven or sacred space of sorts, and I don't like the intrusion. But I just ignore and I find that works best, but I can see how others would be extremely irritated by everything.
jsmith
I'm not sure it's all about the troll, though. I think a lot of it is simply the idea that Busties are pretty much being used for various reasons by those in charge (ie, article ideas), yet they don't want to take reasonable steps to eliminate the chronic gas-pain known as steve.
Chachaheels, that's a good idea, too. Definitely something to chew on.
rogue
I think it's more an issue about TPTB, too, jsmith, not about Trolls McGee himself. It's sad, really, that TPTB don't seem very into serving their "clientelle", but as a non-paying membership website, maybe that's the issue here? I don't know, that just popped into my head. That because this is a free board they just don't monitor it as well as they should. We aren't paying customers so why bother? I've always found that to get the best I have to pay for the best. Sucks, but that's what happens in a world ruled by the almighty dollar.
candycane_girl
rogue, I can see what you mean about this being a free board and therefore Bust not caring about it. However, they care enough about money to have advertisements. There was quite a hubbub when (I think it was last year) they decided to add the extra square of advertisements that sits right above all the posts. So in that way, it's kind of like television. Watching television is free but they need to have advertisements to keep it afloat. However, if no one is watching (or in this case, clicking) then they have to change it somehow to get people coming back.

Basically, chacha is right.
pollystyrene
I think that's an excellent idea, chacha.

So excellent, that here's links to the companies whose ads I see (I use work-safe, so I'm not sure if they're the same as the regular skin.)

Sublime Stitching

FluffyCo

BG2770 Design

ReleaseChimps.org

Hopeful Monsters Apparel (email address hidden down at the bottom)

A Blank Expression

Fringe Salon

Kim & Maki Jewelry

John Fluevog

Colette Patterns

Kiku Handmade

All Pop

Fat Chance Belly Dance

Kathy Van Kleeck Jewelry (Click on her name for email link)

Fitness for Indie Rockers

Modern Tribe

The Sisters Ruehl (click "Contact Us" down at the bottom- no direct link to this page of their website)

Casa Cabrones

DM Color

Frock Boutique

Hats Off Brooklyn

Organic Earrings

Danger Crafts (must sign into etsy, then click "Contact Danger Crafts")

Anomaly Jewelry

OrangyPorangy

Stubborn Jewelry

Modern Minx

Christmas TV Companion (click on "Contact")

Wallflower Vintage

Cool East Market

Baublettes

Broken Cherry

Sexy T's (NSFW, so I didn't go any further into the site)

Pleasure Galaxie (also NSFW)

I hit "refresh" about a billion times to get all those...can someone else create a form letter to send to them?
ModSquad
Dearest Ladies Who Lounge,
We are terribly sorry that this troll keeps posting offensive links in the message board. I understand how upsetting these links can be and how frustrating it is that this troll keeps coming back. I wish there was a simple fix to get rid of them forever but sadly, it is actually physically impossible in the wild world of the internet to completely ban anyone from anything. The more we try to ban the trolls the more they want to get around the restrictions.

I worked every day of my Thanksgiving vacation to delete the spam posts and block his various names, IP address and emails. During the week, we have 3 interns in the office every day who are responsible for monitoring the lounge.

However, even if I were to monitor the lounge every second of my free time it would still be impossible to completely block the trolls. We purchased this lounge software specifically because it allows each member to block any troll who’s posts they don’t want to see. Since that was not enough we are now regularly banning and deleting these posts ourselves. This means the troll gets the attention he craves and creates a new name/email/IP and comes back validated and motivated, instead of giving up because he was ignored. It also means that the feature to block troll posts is virtually useless as we are forcing the troll to come back each time with a different username.

In general, we prefer not to post at all about troll-related issues here as we feel that this, too, only gives a troll more of the type of attention that he feeds on, but it appears that our silence can be misinterpretted. So, as to the issue of the links: While there is always the option NOT to click on links that are posted, we understand that it is very upsetting to many of you that disagreeable links are being posted on the lounge. Therefore, we have disabled link posting for the time being. We hope that resolves the issue to everyone’s satisfaction. We are also open to suggestions about other types of restrictions, please pm them to modsquad. Keep in mind that the only sure way to get rid of the troll would be to get rid of the lounge which is something none of us want to see happen. Thanks for your patience through all this and lets hope disabling links does the trick!

xoxo,
Callie Watts
the hall monitor

pollystyrene
Sorry for the shoot from the hip reaction, ModSquad- I appreciate all the work you did do in the past few days- but no links, no pictures, still a troll problem....why am I here?
pollystyrene
Furthermore, him posting a link is like the least offensive/disruptive thing he does; it's the tip of the iceberg. The huge posts that copy and paste parts of the bible, starting threads and impersonating established members is what is really annoying.

Is there any discussion about increasing the minimum number of posts before you can start a thread? Any discussion about giving a couple of members the ANONYMOUS ability to delete his posts ourselves?

How is punishing us fair?
jsmith
Post minimums would go a long way in curbing some of the problem, certainly.
Another thing: how about a minimum amount of time before one can post links and start new threads? 3 months, maybe? I think having both of these restrictions would be ideal, and they don't smack of censorship, either, so that's no issue. And since bridge dude gets his accounts deleted weekly, he would never be able to post links or start new threads. Damn, that would take away a lot of his fun!
I'm a member on another forum that has these restrictions in place, and the troll activity is zilch. The nature of that forum isn't one that can stir up emotions quite as much as that of the Lounge, but still.
I still think that having a couple of reputable Busties (who can spare the time) moderate on the weekends would be great.
girltrouble
i'm sorry, modsquad, i call bullshit.

BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT, BULLSHIT.

if we had no clue about moding this board i might buy your story, but it's utter HORSESHIT. i'm hesitant to critisize the work you do, since i assume that you volunteer, and i do know it's a rough job, but all the same, your post, is bullshit.

i moded this board and none of steve's posts lasted more than 3 hours before we had them deleted. more often than not, they were down in less than an hour. yet, posts here lasted, 4, 6, 8 hours or longer. his attacks were left to disrupt things, and nothing was done. busties, i'm sure, did most of the leg work for you as well, reporting his posts, yet they lingered, and while i see you say you worked all weekend, why were steve's posts up for so long? i'm sorry your story doesn't ring true. any bustie who's been here for a while knows steve attacks mostly on the weekends-- esp. holiday weekends. this is nothing new.

as poly pointed out, we've been dealing with this for more than 10 years, and the solution now is to ban links? are you fucking kidding me? how is this anything other than something that hurts the lounge? if i wanted to refer to something in the news, or a a pair of shoes, now, i can't post a picture, and now i can't even post a link to it?

fuck you. FUCK YOU, AND FUCK DEBBIE WITH HER FUCKING INSANE CONTROL ISSUES. 10 years of this crap, and she STILL hasn't the sense to take her head out of her ass and take a breath of fresh air. this is a death of 1000 cuts, you are kneecapping the lounge yet again. you are slowly driving away people, and slowly draining the life out of the lounge with debbie's insane control issues.

this idea that not having links will scare steve away is the height of stupidity. we tried it with image posts, and lo and behold, almost 2 years later, steve is still here. the one thing we haven't HONESTLY tried for any sustained amount of time is BUSTIE MODS. real busties, moding the lounge.

fucking let it go, debbie. what the fuck would be the worst that would happen if we had functioning mods? oh, i dunno, fewer letters, fewer headaches, a fully functional lounge where busties would be happy and could post pix and links, that flourishes? how is steve and his fucked up anti-female, anti-abortion bible thumping baiting the fucking lesser of two evils? how would a couple of busties monitoring things more of a threat that steve, who routinely creates havoc on this board to the point that we need to disable images and links?

WHAT THE FUCK COULD BUSTIE MODS DO THAT COULD EVEN COME CLOSE TO CAUSING THAT SORT OF DISRUPTION? WHAT? CALL ME CRAZY, BUT STEVE HAS ALREADY WON. NO IMGS, NO LINKS. WHAT'S NEXT? NO POSTING?

HONESTLY? FUCK YOU, YOUR POST, MODSQUAD, INSULTS OUR INTELLIGENCE. FUCK YOU.
sevenseconds
No links does hurt.
Ouch.

Question: Is there any voting mechanism we can make use of on the Lounge software? There is something called a poll right? One two three, test. Can we take a poll, people?
girltrouble
this idea that your "but it appears that our silence can be misinterpretted." is ridiculous. it's that troll posts weren't cleaned up in a timely manner. that is the issue. not links. not image posting.

you have COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT, MODSQUAD, it's not the images, it's not the links, steve is little more than a symptom of debbie's contempt for the lounge. it's the over all tone that debbie has that busties-- who love the lounge more than anyone else -- cannot be trusted to run it, and so debbie would rather run it into the ground. it is that debbie has consistently treated busties and the lounge, which if anything was women putting the ideas of bust in action, as if it were the magazine's red headed step child with leprosy. she refuses to actually let us keep things in order yet espouses feminist ideas:IT IS HER UTTER HYPOCRACY, AND MISTREATMENT OF THE LOUNGE AND BUSTIES THAT IS THE ISSUE. we can handle steve, but debbie's control issues keep us from doing it.

it's the fucking idea that debbie has completely refused to do anything but fucking put a band-aid on this problem for more than A FUCKING DECADE. instead of simply appointing busties as mods, she makes things a bit more fucked up around here. it seems debbie is really threatened by strong women, since a little support of busties in the form of mods seems to be the only thing NOT on the table.

this is the biggest shit-for-brains moronic idea i've ever heard.

treehugger
seriously, no links? that is complete and utter bullshit. I rarely get involved in these controversies, but no links? Meaning I can't post a link to block our troll???? You people are insane.

I am so close to being completely outta here its' not even funny. Fuck this shit.
sevenseconds
It was a way of "grounding us" for threatening to call the advertisers. And it does take care of the troll being an advertiser problem: what abortion pictures?

This is a very interesting premise, tho. This here, *stomps foot*, is someone's real estate. Cyberspace real estate but yeah. But on it, something has happened, a world has been built and effectively lives and creates, that is way beyond the real estate. This is The Walled City, people. So it's in effect a cyber squat situation. And some creep comes in and TP's the place regularly while the squatters are sleeping or watching youtube (with nasty toilet paper) but they don't have a key to lock him out. The building's owners don't care, don't like the squatters perhaps, perhaps just don't give a shit. But they won't give them a key. Perhaps they hope these squatters will move out and new ones will move in. Who knows how building owning works. But the question is, how do you get the people who own the building to be a little nicer to the squatters.
Is there any favors we can swap? The "I have an edgy friend, I'm cool" card is already there, apparently, but not good enough.
Or do we look for another building?
candycane_girl
I have to agree with GT. I've been here long enough that I've seen troll posts swept up in under 24 hours. It was Thanksgiving weekend in the U.S. so I just assumed that no one was here at all, after all that's how it appeared based on the incredibly slow response.

Out of all of us here, only GT (and maybe AP) has ever had the power to clean up troll posts so only she can tell us how easy or difficult it is. I don't know what kind of work goes into it or if it's just as simple as clicking a few things and that's it. He didn't even post in that many threads, how hard could it be?

As for not allowing us to post links, once again, that's only punishing us and we are the ones who have done nothing wrong.

The most infuriating part is that the solution is so SIMPLE! Seriously! How hard would it be to appoint a few busties as anonymous moderators and just let them take care of the trolls. There are so many who are willing and who have the time and who actually give a shit about this board and its users. It's ridiculous.
pollystyrene
Have we ever gotten a real answer about why they can't just ban his IP?
girltrouble
from what i can gather they did ban steve's ip for a while, there was a lull for a while where there were no steve attacks while he was effectively neutralized. but he found a way around it. honestly it's not that hard to figure out, most busties would figure it out in less time, if they put their mind to it. but well, steve isn't the brightest bulb.

don't get me wrong, that was the one bit of actual work that's been done to slow steve down, had it been in conjunction with bustie mods, i'm sure steve wouldn't have bothered. but debbie has to have her fucking control, and this is the result, instead of making things better, she wants to make things worse with a link ban-- easily the dumbest idea ever.

OH, AND MODSQUAD, DON'T TELL ME THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF THE TROLL IS TO GET RID OF THE LOUNGE. FUCK YOU, AND YOUR STUPID THREATS. DEBBIE HAS ANOTHER OPTION, SHE ALWAYS HAS: BUSTIE MODS.

it's obvious that this idea isn't working. from what modsquad said there are 3 interns to help on weekdays, but last week there was still lag. and candy, you weren't the only one assuming that there was no one minding the candy store. i did too. if steve's posts were handled in a timely manner, we would have no complaint, but debbie's control issues give steve license. quite honestly, DEBBIE IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

it's horse shit. remember Lounge Lady Lisa? even she took care of it in a timely manner, and it was just her. same when aural and i were doing it. one person can handle it, and i didn't have the benefit of busties reporting troll posts, all the same i did it with a freaking dial up connection.

when you know an attack is in process you can keep up pretty quickly, and there are a couple of tactics. you can keep up with him if you choose. when i was mod, steve and i went post for post and i pretty much kept up, it had to have been 10x worse than this weekend. sorry, modsquad, but he and i went at it for hours. if you couldn't keep up this last weekend, you weren't trying. that was a walk in the park.

no, something is rotten in denmark. "the hall monitor" was the title debbie used when she was doing her crappy job modding the place.

I THINK CHACHA HAS THE RIGHT IDEA. we need a form letter posted here, and in the FB group. i'm transferring the sponsored list now. we send them to ALL of the people who buy ad space here in the lounge, and on bust. com in general. i'm tired of this bullshit. i'm tired of us getting fucked over with no images, and no links because debbie has issues. no, we take this one to the sponsors until we get what we want this time. we've put up with this for 10 years. i say no more.
BUSTIE MODS NOW.
chachaheels
Here's a form letter to start with--feel free to clean up, clever-up the basic structure, below:


Dear _____________(advertiser)


I'm writing to make you aware of the fact that so little care is taken to preserve the community in the Bust lounge that your advertisements are often featured above lengthy posts featuring fundamentalist Christian propaganda, particularly frequently posted photographs used to promote an anti-abortion stance (they often feature aborted, bloody fetus photographs and very lengthy excerpts from the Bible, always full of the worst homophobic and misogynist text). For the past 10 years, many of the community members have demanded that these posts and images be removed as soon as they appear, and that the troll who continues to post them be blocked from the site. Very little action has been taken to stop the trolling, and subsequently, participants have started to leave this board.

I am writing to let you know that your advertisements invariably become associated with these posts and images, and to ask that you confront the management of the Bust bulletin board to ensure that your corporate image is never tied to these images or publications. In effect, your advertisement fees are being used to subsidize these dramatically ugly and inflammatory anti-abortion images and posts--you're paying to tell us you're out there, and we want to do business with you: but we don't want to hang around where your money pays to promote some troll's persistent fundamentalist agenda, and pretty much nothing is done to stop him and people like him from abusing the forum we've created here.

Please let Debbie, Callie, (any other important names we should list here? Does anyone know who these people answer to? Does Bust have a marketing director ? If they do, She should know!) know that you don't wish to have your company in any way connected to these offensive images and words. As the non-paying community, we participate on this site free of charge--and the management here doesn't care that we're being disrupted by this unchecked activity. But as an advertiser here, you have a great deal of power in demanding exactly how you're portrayed to your market here. Know that no care has been taken to ensure you'll be presented in the best light--but your awareness and your action will change that very quickly.


_____________________________________________________________________

This is an overly wordy draft--but I think it contains what has to be said--that you're writing to inform them of how they appear to you on this board, they should be aware that no care is being taken to present them well because these posts are allowed to proliferate and remain here (despite our persistent requests and suggestions) and that they do have the power to demand that their fees do not subsidize a free forum for fundamentalist propaganda.

Please feel free to name other important points, names, issues, etc. We should work on this together and get it out to the advertisers as soon as possible.

Banning links and images. How lame are you if you think you can punish your bread and butter here, and allow someone like Steve free access to disseminate his crap? Do you people think we don't notice that YOU'RE SILENCING THE WRONG PARTY HERE?




culturehandy
Le Sigh.

I just don't want to see the lounge go away. We are all very passionate about the lounge, clearly or we wouldn't be getting so worked up. I did point out the fact that one persons abuse is limiting all our abilities, in a PM to modsquad. No pics, no links, now what? Will it go so far as GT said and no posts?

I'm been on other message boards where there are mods, and it works well. These are forums that have *very* sensitive information that is discussed, and the mods do not take away from the discussion. So far as I can tell, there is no abuse by the mods. Further, one of these lounges is designed by the same makers as the bust lounge.
pollystyrene
Here, I cleaned it up a little, chacha. Is there a phone number for Debbie? I included info on the sales & marketing person.

Dear [advertiser]

I post regularly on the bust.com message board (the "Lounge"), where you advertise your [good/service]. I am writing to make you aware of the situation going on on the board. For years, we have been plagued with a "troll"- an individual who posts solely for malicious, disruptive purposes. The troll's posts are misogynistic, homophobic and disturbing, often featuring images that are being presented as aborted fetuses, and often dozens of posts in a single day. Many established members have stopped posting over the years due to the atmosphere on the board, and new members have said that they are discouraged from posting because of the disruptive nature of the troll. There have been many, many requests from the members to Debbie Stoller, the editor of the magazine and decision-maker for the website, to handle the situation effectively but very little has been done, even though the solution is quite simple.

The members of the Lounge are not charged any fees to post there, but you as an advertiser have the choice to take your advertising dollars elsewhere. Given that the potential customer base is disappearing and your organization could be associated with such ignorant, hateful messages, I urge you to contact Emily Andrews, Bust's Director of Sales and Marketing (Phone: 212.675.1707 X112; email: emily.andrews@bust.com) as well as Debbie Stoller herself [phone#? email: debbie@bust.com], and let them know that you do not wish to have your company associated with these words and images, and you want to preserve your audience.

Thank you,

[your name]
chachaheels
That's very well said--and thanks for finding out the contact names and contact information. I think it's great the way it is now but if anyone thinks we should add anything else, please do so. I'd like to start sending it out soon.


I don't want to lose the BUST lounge's community either, I've been posting here for years. But honestly, I do think the board's policy to punish us (no links and no images for you, "Busty's"! But Steve, you go ahead and post away to your black heart's content!) is more than disheartening and abusive. Think about it: I get that Debbie is "selling" us to the advertisers they court here, that's a given because all publications do that. I also get we're the goldmine for their material. I don't believe, however, that she should be allowed to be contemptuous of the community we've created here by disregarding our own concerns for relief from this and all trolls. If I recall correctly, Steve did stalk one of the Busties here after finding out where she lived--if that's not reason enough for ensuring that he never has access here again, I don't know what is.

And hell, this bulletin board program also allows you to track your participants, find out their IP number, and use that information to have them blocked at source. It also allows you to remove any posts that should not be here quickly and easily. Know why GT could do it using dial up? Because that's been written into software for bulletin boards ever since dial up was the only option for mainstream internet access. Sheesh.

As AP and GT have said, it's not because the technical knowhow or feature isn't there--it's because the will isn't there, pure and simple.
ModSquad
Ladies,
First off I need to make something clear. I am in charge of the lounge – not Debbie Stoller- and it has been that way for years now. I am in charge of overseeing the interns who moderate the lounge. If any insulting link gets overlooked it is my fault. If a troll goes unnoticed for a couple days, blame me. If you feel like someone doesn’t care about you, that person is me. But that is not true at all – I do care about everyone who posts in the lounge and I care a great deal about the lounge itself. That is why I work on my days off to block trolls, I try to look out for all of you as best I can. And yes, sometimes the interns don’t do the job as well as they should. Sometimes we miss a post or two and sometimes a troll hangs out for a couple days because I am not on top of the interns as much as I should be. And I apologize for any trouble that causes you. I think the lounge is a very important community for women to talk openly and develop a supportive forum. Women need places like this and I would hate to have to shut it down.
Which leads me to my second point. As much as I think the lounge is an important tool for women, if any of our advertisers pull out because of this situation we will most likely have to shut the lounge down or start charging for it.
If I have to shut the lounge down then the troll wins and there will be one less place for women to talk to about choice. This breaks my heart as I am sure it does yours.
There is a system to deal with trolls – ignore and report. You are more then welcome to PM me with as much hate as you like, to tell me you do not feel there is enough being down and to help me brainstorm ways to deal with issues. But please do this over PM. By posting about the troll, you encourage the troll. With that in mind I will ban and delete anyone who refuses to use the ignore/report system and instead choices to encourage and acknowledge the troll. By encouraging him you become part of the problem instead of the solution.
Please ladies, I beg of you, lets handle this like the ladies that we are, PM me with what the problems are, troll related or not. We did not want to disable links but it was clear from your complaints that the links were a problem (even though you have the ability NOT to click the link and to ignore/report the poster). I encourage you to PM me with ideas to deal with this problem. It is impossible to keep any board 100% free of trolls at all times. There are two ways to deal with trolls: don't click on links & block the troll posts from view or to delete troll posts as soon as we can and to not allow anyone to post links at all so that the links are never be up at all before being deleted. We will put up a poll to see what all the board users prefer. For the time being we have temporarily suspended links since they were upsetting so many people. We are open to any and all suggestions so please PM me with ideas.

I know that some of you feel having a user as a moderator is a good idea. We tried this just a short year ago and it was a bad experience for everyone involved. The experience is documented in several threads. If you would like to read them please PM me and I will direct you to them. There was a lot of drama, entire threads were accidentally deleted, posts were not just deleted but were also edited and embellished upon, and on and on. In the end it was decided that it was just better to keep the function of moderator to our in-house staff as we could keep better tabs on what was going on. To be fair, I should have been moderating the moderator so some of the blame for that does fall on my heavily bitched upon shoulders.
I am game to try having a user as a moderator again but how can we ensure what happened last year wont happen again? What do you ladies think the difference will be by having a user moderate instead of an in-house moderator? My fear is that moderating the moderator may be more time consuming than keeping it in-house. Let me know your thought and ideas concerning this approach.

It is also a bit unfair to target our Sales and Marketing Director. She loves BUST and all of you who care so deeply about the BUST lounge. Her job is to ensure we have money to keep the lounge running. She has nothing to do with the troll situation. Please refrain from using or posting her contact information in the context of this current situation.

Again ladies, lets work this out together and not lose the lounge over a feminist-hating troll with way to much time on his hands. If we lose, he wins. Go team lounge! Loungers are you with me…

xoxo,
Callie Watts
Lounge Supervisor/Person to Hate/Hall Monitor
ModSquad
Oh and I forgot to mention, we do block IP addresses. We block user name, email, IP, delete all post and threads and then delete the user.
girltrouble
QUOTE
Ladies,
First off I need to make something clear. I am in charge of the lounge – not Debbie Stoller- and it has been that way for years now. I am in charge of overseeing the interns who moderate the lounge. If any insulting link gets overlooked it is my fault.

that's some pot of horse shit you're cooking up, there lady. if you were in charge of it for years, how come the only person i was in contact with when i was modding was debbie. how come all the correspondance i had was with her? why did the intern who came before my brief modding term, Lounge Lady Lisa, never talk about you, but only debbie, even in our private pms?

i'm sorry, but the story you are telling just don't ring true, and another sign of contempt is lying. we're not idiots who will swallow whatever you try to feed us.

and for the record, it's not about hating you, it's about getting you to take your head out of your ass long enough to do what's right by the lounge and the brave, smart, lovely women who post here, instead of the STUPID, CONTROL ISSUE BULLSHIT Y'ALL HAVE BEEN PULLING FOR THE LAST 10+ YEARS. this place needs, mods, but your control issues keep you from doing it.

hate you? lady, i couldn't give a half a shit and a fig about you. i care about the lounge, and i don't care for your throwing veiled threats about shutting the lounge down, and for that sort of disgusting fear mongering, i am more than happy to give you a hearty FUCK YOU.

if anything you make me want to work harder, and dig in my heels deeper. if you were running the lounge for years, you would know, you have done the exact wrong thing when dealing with me. i don't take to lies, hypocracy or threats at all. so you can take your threats, and shove them up your ass.


but on to what we were talking about before we were so RUDELY INTERRUPTED. thank you for the form letters, i havent the skill for brevity, as you all know, i go on and on.

but i think one thing i think we should make clear in the letter, however is our demand-- plain and simple:bustie mods. otherwise it is rather murky what we are after, i think it should be something that we state.

blocking steve's ip was not, and is not a solution. there are work arounds that obviously steve has figure out. that said, i do not think, as "callie" suggested, that the only other option is to end the lounge. that's absurd, and little more than a veiled threat. playing to our worst fears, and a rather disgusting, despicable thing to say. let's be clear it was meant to do one thing: shut us up.

i think we are on the right path here. one of the things we have failed to note is that the lounge brings in LOTS of people who just lurk. look at the number of members the lounge has, and at most times there are atleast 50+ people who are just reading our posts. we have leverage, but let's not use it scatter shot. let's be very precise about what we want.

we need two different kinds of mods: one to approve of new members or delete their accounts-- and a second to monitor and delete whatever troll posts manage to get past that first gauntlet. both could delete posts incase of an attack.
girltrouble
oh wait, you're taking away my ability to edit my own posts? charming.

here is what i added:

if anything you make me want to work harder, and dig in my heels deeper. if you were running the lounge for years, you would know, you have done the exact wrong thing when dealing with me. i don't take to lies, hypocracy or threats at all. so you can take your threats, and shove them up your ass.

you think this shit storm will go away if you shut the lounge down? let me promise you, it will get worse. then we'd have some real ammunition to take to your advertisers, and your readers. how do you think they'd take you to shutting down a place were women talked about some of their most sensitive issues? it don't take a whole lot of ink to paint you as a bad guy in this scenario. trust me.


yes, there was lots of drama, threads did get deleted, but much of that was because i was given NO instruction, NO direction until after the fact. it came at a time when i was dealing with a LOT of other crap in my life, including relationship difficulties, and the illness of a beloved pet, who would eventually die, add to that, virtiually no help from you. what's even more ironic, is that i said from the get-go of the lounge's push for mods, that i would be EXACTLY THE WRONG PERSON FOR IT. yet, i was chosen because y'all set me up to fail. even when things were well in hand, it was well after the storm that y'all revoked my mod status.

i'm not the only one to call it a clusterfuck. several busties have pointed out that it seemed as if you guys wanted me to fail. i'm willing to take on my mistakes, but to say you tried it and it didn't work, is just more of that lying you keep doing. just like saying if we go to the sponsors for what WE think is right, the troll wins. no, the troll already won, because you refuse to give up control, and he's playing that control issue YOU HAVE against us.
the issue is YOURS. NOT OURS.


why don't you tell the truth: you have control issues. you don't want to give up your control of the lounge even though you know it's what this place needs.
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