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pepper
oh that is so cool! i will certainly tell him. if you facebook at all you could befriend him and find out if the flick will be viewable somewhere else sometime. he is a most fabulous fella, if at all possible i'm sure he'd hook you up in return for feedback.
i can't wait to see it myself. hopefully on a big screen and not just at their house. though i do like to go to their house, ha ha!
erinjane
As if no one has posted about the crazy shit going down right now.

I for one get a sick satisfaction that Harper is getting kicked out, and not just losing an election. The announcements he's been making in the last week are so ridiculous I can hardly believe it. I got excited listening to Dion make the announcement today but I'm happy he's stepping down as the liberal leader...I wish we could get someone really inspiring in instead of just another sweater vest.
culturehandy
EJ, i was just coming in here to post about what's going on!

my thing here is where was this tough Dion during the election? this is so fucking awesome! I wonder what's going to go down? I also wonder what is going to happen to the conservatives who taped the NDP stratey meeting.
tommynomad
Those taping tories are typical toads. I hope they get charged and convicted.

The progressive coalition deal looks ok. I have a beef with giving big auto any money at all, but it's better than letting the neocons rule the roost.
culturehandy
I really like how the conservatives are bitching about democratic process, but instead of dealing with the issues at hand, they want to stop the current session.

Pot, meet kettle.
erinjane
It's absolutely absurd to suggest that parliament be suspended in a time like this. I can't believe some of the conservatives are talking about it like it's a reasonable option. I heard a clip from Dion on CBC an hour ago where he was screaming and sounded so passionate and so upset. I agree with you culture, where was he during the election?

http://isharperprimeminister.ca/
geekchickknits
I'm very excited, I hope this coalition goes through. I don't think the GG will let Harper prorogue parliament - economic action must be taken and Harper did not address it in his speech from the throne. He keeps talking about how it's undemocratic, but the majority of the population did NOT vote for Harper, and this is exactly what is supposed to happen. People, this is our democracy WORKING!
culturehandy
Here's what I find irritating; people are talking about how a majority of Canadian people have spoken and chosen, and they chose the Conservatives. Well, no they didn't because the Harper government is a minority government. Do we really need to get into the differences between majority and minority?

CBC was talking this morning about how many European countries form coalition governments and they work well. Maybe not on a really long term basis, but things still get accomplished in governement. Unlike the current Canadian government which is so horribly disfunctional. I think a coalition government is a good thing for a few reason.

1. It gets rid of the Harper government (can the conservatives please finally hold a leadership convention. Harper has not managed to win a majority since he was leader and now this. clearly the man is not fit to lead and he'a moron).

2. I like the Liberal's and NDP working together. I think things will get accomplished.

3. It saves Canada and the tax payers another election which will net the same outcome and ultimately will again lead to a accomplish-nothing parliament.

4. Maybe someone will finalyl admit that Canada is in a recession and do something about it! And something more than a "technical recession" whatever the hell that is.

Although I don't agree with a governement bail out of the big three. It still doesn't solve the intrinsic problems with the vehicles. Fact of the matter is the big three make a crappy shoddy product that doesn't last. It still doesn't solve the problems with them and no amount of money will change the fact that the Japanese and other foreign (re: luxury) automakers make a superior vehicle. BUT that's a whole different can of worms.
erinjane
It's killing me how people keep saying this is illegal or some sort of coup. No! This is exactly what's supposed to happen. Most people never stop and think about how our governmental system actually works. I hope high school teachers are using this opportunity to really showcase the way the system works. If a minority gov doesn't have the support of the opp than the gov isn't working and action needs to be taken.
culturehandy
Thing is, Stephen Harper already tried to do exactly the same thing when the Martin Government was falling. He wrote to the GG and it was the same sort of thing, except without the coalition part. He's trying to do all sorts of things to prevent the democratic process from taking place.

Know who's not following democracy and Canadian Constitution.
ChingusKhan
I recognize that I am almost certainly not the majority opinion here but I have three big problems with this proposed coalition government:

1.) Federally, I have voted Liberal or Conservative. Like most Canadians - I think - I am comfortable in the "mushy middle". I did not vote for the Reform Party or the Canadian Alliance (And, remember, I'm a middle aged white male, living in the suburbs of Western Canada and I make my living in the resource extraction industry. I'm a potential poster child for a supposed "typical" Reform Party supporter.) because I thought they - the Reform and the Alliance - were too ideologically extreme. I've never - federally - voted for the NDP either. Again, in my view, the NDP are too ideologically "devout".

2.) I have profound, profound problems with ANY Federal Government that is supported by a party dedicated to the break-up of Canada.That sticks in my craw in a very, very big way!!! This is the real world and I can not believe that Bloc is supporting this coalition without some sort of "quid pro quo". They are going to get something, some time and I do not believe that - whatever it is - it can possibly be good for national unity. I have read - and I believe it to be true - that Stephen Harper and the Conservatives were considering approaching the Bloc to bring down the Martin / Liberal Government: I can tell you that I would have been just as vehemently opposed to that move as I am to this one.

3.) I think, too, that there are very real issues with Stefan Dion as Prime Minister. He led the Liberals to their worst showing in a generation in the last election and they - his own Party - made it clear that he should step down. And he has tendered his resignation, effective a leadership convention in May, 2009. Is that still going to happen? And, if so, who's our Prime Minister after that? Will it be the new leader of the Liberals, a person who will not - potentially - face the electorate for another 12 months? If so, what's democratic about that? If Dion doesn't resign, does he really have the support of his Party? Will the Rae and Iggie park their political ambitions "for the good of the country"? (I'm a cynic and skeptic: I don't think so.)

Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have been ham-fisted, bullying idiots here and I curse them for it. I think, though, that the alternative, this proposed coalition, I think leads us to something worse.
erinjane
I don't have time to post much now, but FYI, Stephan Dion has already said on Monday during the coalition announcment, that yes, he is still stepping down. This will be happening on May 2nd.
geekchickknits
ChingusKahn, although the Bloc may be "separatists," what they really want is what is best for Quebec. I am part French-Canadian, and believe me, I do not want to see Quebec secede from Canada, but the movement has been losing steam for a long time. All this "deal with the devil" talk does nothing except galvanize the movement because since we have had minority governments, it has been clear that the Bloc often hold the balance of power. In fact, the Conservatives have relied on the Bloc to prop them up over 100 times. Do you think those votes came for free?

Let the Coalition lead - we can't afford an election and they can't do worse than Harper.
culturehandy
I don't think anything can be worse than the conservatives. I think the best thing for canada is a Liberal NDP colation government. Ideally it would be a Liberal Majority with an NDP supported minority.

Stephen Harper is pushing for things that suit his evangelical, extreme right wing agenda. this is a man who formerly led the reform party, the uber right wing political party... *shudders*
erinjane
He's got such a creepy public personality. My family and I were all watching his little address tonight and we all burst out laughing when it started and there he was with that smile. I felt like he should have been sitting by a fire in an arm chair all nonchalantly, "Oh, hello there. I didn't see you come in. Well, let me tell you all about my plans as Prime Minister!"
geekchickknits
QUOTE(erinjane @ Dec 3 2008, 09:07 PM) *
He's got such a creepy public personality. My family and I were all watching his little address tonight and we all burst out laughing when it started and there he was with that smile. I felt like he should have been sitting by a fire in an arm chair all nonchalantly, "Oh, hello there. I didn't see you come in. Well, let me tell you all about my plans as Prime Minister!"


I have never seen Stephen Harper smile a smile that doesn't look forced and fake. His little schpeal tonight was just repeating what he had already said without giving us anything about what he would ACTUALLY DO. AND HE LIED.

Stephan Dion on the other hand, in spite of his tape arriving late, presented us with some solutions, and a timeline, and made it very clear that what was happening was actually very democratic, and exactly how our democracy is supposed to work.

Please, Madame Jean, Your Excellency, PLEASE, give the coalition a chance.
juls
I read a comment on cbc today, and it made me really think... someone asked why we even need to go through this whole process because the coalition has already been signed. It legally exists. They have the majority, so they are able to approve/reject any proposition that the Conservatives now bring to the table.

I'm no political expert, but this sort of made sense... Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Harper, but I'm all for an economical, effective way out of this situation.
Christine Nectarine
from what i understand juls, the Governor General has to first determine that the coalition has the ability to form a government and give her OK. if she finds that they do not seem able to form a government (ie have the confidence of the House) the alternative would be to call an election.

i still feel somewhat confused about this whole turn of events, but one thing seems for sure - maybe this was just the sort of political upheaval we needed to get Canadians re-engaged in the civic process! we just had the LAMEST election i've ever seen, with the lowest voter turnout EVER. now apparently newsrooms are getting 10x's the calls and mail they have ever gotten, and i hear everybody talking about they want out of our government. like you said erinjane, i hope teachers are using this opportunity to educate their students about the constitution and our parliamentary process. i've certainly learned a lot this week.

one other thing, i think it's kind of ill-conceived to go on so much about "THE SEPERATISTS" and that threat. as many have mentioned here already, both liberal and conservatives sides have benefitted from the support of the Bloc in the past. we can't deny that Bloc MP's were democratically elected by their constituents, who (despite their alterior motives) are Canadian citizens, and have a right to representation. i'm no more or less uncomfortable with the idea than usual.

actually, one other thing. i love how all the Conservatives keep emphasizing SEPERATISTS and SOCIALISTS as though the NDP are as extreme a threat to Canadian existance as the Bloc are. c'mon people - we all know there are a good kind of socialist, and bad kind of socialist. Jack Layton is no Stalin. he may remind you of a pushy car salesman, but i don't think you can portray him as EVIL!
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(Christine Nectarine @ Dec 3 2008, 07:53 PM) *
one other thing, i think it's kind of ill-conceived to go on so much about "THE SEPERATISTS" and that threat. as many have mentioned here already, both liberal and conservatives sides have benefitted from the support of the Bloc in the past. we can't deny that Bloc MP's were democratically elected by their constituents, who (despite their alterior motives) are Canadian citizens, and have a right to representation. i'm no more or less uncomfortable with the idea than usual.


After reading the posts, I do get your points re: the Bloc's participation in all this. Makes me sick, makes me angry but I do get the point... The Conservatives have made that bed and slept in it a few times. In fact, the Bloc owes its existence to Brian Mulroney and his attempt to re-open the Constitutional debate.

What about Dion, though, and the whole leadership of this coalition? What does happen when - if - Dion steps down? How does the new leader of the Liberals become the Prime Minister and then not face the polls for a year?

I can tell you that, in my opinion, that would be political suicide for the Libs. No way, no how that new leader would have any credibility with the public and he/she would be crushed in the next election.

I think the Libs are in real danger here. This could be a Faustian deal. They enter into it, they will be forever fused in a large - very large - number of centerist voter's minds as the party of the left. How do they differ from the NDP after that?

If I'm the Libs, I'd play the long game here: I'd get Dion out; he is a great man, who we all owe a debt to - his work on the Clarity Bill was outstanding - but he is no Prime Minister. In our system, for better or worse, the best Prime Ministers are kind of bullies. Think Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien. Get a strong leader in - dragoon Manley or McKenna in somehow or get Ignatief in -and then get the Party funding back functioning.

Wait a year or so, because whoever is in power over the next while is going to make some very unpopular, very tough decisions, and once things are at the worst (And trust me here, this economic shit-storm is going to get much, much worse, regardless of who is in power.) and then bring down the Conservatives. By then, you'll be able to hang them with all sorts of nasty cutbacks and a huge deficit. You think Harper is unpopular now? He'll be loathed by then.

Run a tough campgain, with a well funded war chest and strong leader and you'd take out Harper without the NDP's or the Bloc's help.

FYI, the rumor is that Ignatief has refused a Cabinet post in the new coalition is doing everything he can to stay away from it. I'll take bets right now that if this coalition goes through and he wins the leadership in May, he'll pull the Libs out and go to the polls.
culturehandy
What I have a huge HUGE issue with is that the econmy is the most important things right now, the Harper government claims that this is on the forefront, however they want to prorogue the current session. how is proroguing parliament going to help the economy NOW?
culturehandy
Parliament has been prorogued. Fuck.
juls
Oh for christ's sake... the GG actually listened to Harper... another 7 weeks of political drama...

And what the hell is this:

"They accused Harper of doing nothing to address the current economic crisis and slammed what they saw as ideologically driven measures such as the proposed elimination of subsidies for political parties, a three-year ban on the right of civil servants to strike and limits on the ability of women to sue for pay equity. Harper has since backed down on those contentious issues, but the opposition has pushed forward with the coalition. - CBC "

*edited*
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Dec 4 2008, 07:39 AM) *
What I have a huge HUGE issue with is that the econmy is the most important things right now, the Harper government claims that this is on the forefront, however they want to prorogue the current session. how is proroguing parliament going to help the economy NOW?


On the economy, Harper is spouting bullshit and he knows it. The point, though, is so are the other guys. Three big pieces in the Canadian economy right now: Forestry, autos and oil & gas.

Forestry is the one industry - probably the only industry - that makes autos look good. We're well and truly f**ked there. We've got cost structures that are miles out of whack, climate change issues that are killing trees in BC and all government hands are tied 'cos of NAFTA. Can't subsidise directly or you're in conflict. Prorogue or no prorogue, it makes no difference. Plus, there are a number of programmes in place to help laid off workers already. FYI, is it not too well known but, right now, in BC beetle kill timber is free. There is no stumpage on it. Cut it down and it's yours. It's still not economic.

As to oil & gas, that's Fort Mac and Newfoundland and things are going OK. At the current price of oil, the existing infrastructure is still profitable. New projects are getting cancelled left & right but projects started are continuing and are continuing to pump tax dollars in into Provincial and Federal coffers. Again, prorogue or not, that continues.

The auto sector needs help and needs help bad. Remember, though, the part of the industry that needs the most help are branch plants of US companies. (I'm talking about the Big Three.) There's no real point in doing anything here in Canada until you know what they are going to do down in the States and nothing is going to happen there until President-elect Obama takes over on Jan. 22. We're prorogued (Is "prorogued" even a word?! Up until yesterday morning, I though prorogue was a flour dumpling my Baba made!) 'till the 26th. Hopefully, our Embassy staff in DC are keeping tabs on what's going on vis-a-vis the US approach to the auto industry and we can dovetail our plan to theirs.

Look, I'm no fan of Harper. I think he's clumsy, ham-fisted and there is an ideological bent there that I don't like. On the leadership scale, he is - at best - a 3.5 out of 10. The challenge I have is that this coalition looks - to me - like a 2 out of 10.

Like I said, I've voted Conservative and Liberal. I'm more Progressive Conservative than Conservative and, frankly, given a strong Liberal leader, I'd vote Liberal.

As events have unfolded and I've though about it more, I'm coming to believe that the political party that stands to loose the most in this coalition deal are the Libs. Right now, they are the weakest they've been in a generation. It has been my experience that you never want to make deals when you're weak, unless your survival depends on it. If I'm the Libs, I'm getting my leadership issues behind me, my finances in order and then I'm going to take on the Conservatives and I won't need the NDP or the Bloc to beat them.
culturehandy
OT, I don't think the Canadian nor the American governments should give a bail out package to the big three. The fact of the matter is no amount of money will fix the fact that the big three automakers make a horrible vehicle. They are unreliable, they break down constantly, and depreciate in value. Not to mention the fact that the big three are generations behind the Japanese.

The fact of the matter is that the big three just cannot compete with the superior car making ability of Asian and other foreign automakers. Money can't solve the problem when you make a crappy product.

While I can appreciate the fact that the Liberal party is at it's lowest showing ever, let's also not forget that this recent election had it's lowest voter turn out ever. Prorogueing parliament isn't going to make this issue go away. In classic Harper fashion, instead of lying int he bed he chose to make, he's picking up his toys and going home like a little brat.
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Dec 4 2008, 10:58 AM) *
OT, I don't think the Canadian nor the American governments should give a bail out package to the big three. The fact of the matter is no amount of money will fix the fact that the big three automakers make a horrible vehicle. They are unreliable, they break down constantly, and depreciate in value. Not to mention the fact that the big three are generations behind the Japanese.


I agree, they make shit products, especially Chrysler. Their response to high gas prices was to market nostalgia cars powered by Hemis!! WTF?! GM is only just a little better, in terms of products but probably worse in organizational structure and overheads. Ford, though, actually has some nice products and they - of the three - seem to be the best focused on a way forward. That's damming with faint praise, though.

They all will get something, though. They are just too damm big, they employee too many people and their collapse is potentially too catastrophic to consider. They owe too much money to too many banks and too many suppliers. Too big to fail, unfortunately. I hope, though, that whatever money they get has all kinds of strings attached. Let's make sure that taxpayer money funds major changes in the industry. And, frankly, whatever we do here in Canada has to tie-in with the US does. No point in doing anything direct to companies until you know what the US is doing.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Dec 4 2008, 10:58 AM) *
While I can appreciate the fact that the Liberal party is at it's lowest showing ever, let's also not forget that this recent election had it's lowest voter turn out ever. [/color]


What does one have to do with the other? It's the Liberal Party's percentage of the popular vote that matters. That's the lowest it's ever been. Low turnout or high, if your popular vote's falling, you're jammed.

I hope I'm being clear here: I'd like to see Harper go but let's not gut the one long term alternative - the Liberal Party - to the Conservatives to do it. I truly believe this coalition will jam the Liberals for a generation.
tommynomad
3 Tory lies that needs dispelling immediately:

1. The Bloc are separatists bent on the destruction of Canada. This is typical neocon fearmongering. There are more separatists in Western Canada than in Quebec these days, and their bleating gets louder every minute. And I'll bet the majority of thise crying abuot the destruction off our nation have neither visited Quebec, nor speak French, and have likely uttered anti-Quebec vitriol like "let them go" during the height our our recent constitutional crises.

Destruction is a loaded term, even if the substance were to come to pass. Has France been destroyed by the creation of the EU? New political paradigms are nothing to fear. I relish the fact that my home is a place where if a group wants to re-work the political landscape, they pick up a ballot; not a gun.

2. Socialism is dangerous. The Netherlands, Portugal, Britain, Germany and a host of other nations have all had very successful socialist governments. In Canada, NDP governements have delivered balanced budgets at almost double the rate of the Tories: they are the most fiscally-responsible party, regardless of the fairy tales your grandpa told you.

3. The coalition is undemocratic. The coalition (and the ability to form one) is hard-wired into the Canadian parliamentary system. Unfortunately, so is the prorogue.


I am appalled that the coalition wanted to bail out big auto and other sunset industries. Putting off the pain of letting 20-century industries die benefits no one, and costs us all now and in the future. There will always be massive unemployment when something like that happens, but IT WILL HAPPEN. Pretending it won't is stupid and costly. Discouraging people from taking new jobs in the industry, steering training programmes toward new tech is smart and progressive.

I also think the coalition was--politically--a suicidal move for the NDP and the Libs. They could not have come out of it with a favourable public image. And so I commend them both. To me, it showed that they genuinely put the needs of the nation first.

Finally, people can knock on Layton for his sleekness, or Dion for his bookishness, but neither one of them is dangerous, and that's something that cannot be said for Harper. He's a member of the Calgary School, a Straussian. Other notable members of this political ideology include Tom Flanagan & Karl Rove. One of the tenets of the philosophy is that occasionally, democracy must be suspended 'for the good of the people.'

And the clocks struck thirteen.
culturehandy
One could hypothesize that had more voters come out, there could have, theoretically speaking, been more votes for the Liberal Party. That really could go one way on another though.

Tommy, you are correct, Fuhr Harper comes from a very radical right wing school when it comes to economics, one which is not even that popular among economists. This is a man who is an evangelical christian, an incredibly right wing ideology who's own economists don't even agree with his finance ministers numbers. Scary scary man and a very scary party.

The Conservative party of Canada is very much turning into what the republican party is now. Where conservative never used to mean so right wing, evangelical, but slightly right of centre, and more fiscally conservative. Not this fiasco of a party now.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong in discussing seperatists, but did the reform party not want to seperate from Canada at one time?
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Dec 4 2008, 12:45 PM) *

Now, correct me if I'm wrong in discussing seperatists, but did the reform party not want to seperate from Canada at one time?


No, the Reform Party never advocated separation. In fact, the founding mantra, if you will, was "the West wants in". The Reform Party was a western populist party in line with the old Social Credits and CCP (Which became the NDP.)

Interesting to me this talk of "left and right" in Canadian politics because, I think it misses the central political dynamic here. The issue in Canada, really, is not "left versus right". It is "centralization versus de-centralization" or "provincial versus federal powers". We are not a federated state, we are a confederation of regions. Most Canadians don't even really realize how de-centralized we are.

Traditionally, at the Federal level, both major parties- the Liberals & Conservatives - hung around the middle of the political spectrum. (Remember, too, that our middle is WAY left of the of Democrats in the US. We're more a European middle.) Where they diverged - and they still do - is around Provincial and Federal powers. Typically, the Libs have stood for a strong, centralized Federal Government and the Tories have looked to more devolved powers in the Provinces' hands.

What's interesting to me, too, is the visceral hatred of Harper! Nobody likes the guy or admits to it! But, poll after poll after poll picks him as the person Canadians most trust to lead them. A very strange dichotomy.

As to the NDP and balanced budgets: Sorry, I saw what happened in Ontario under Bob Rae and I lived through Mike Harcourt and Glen Clark here in BC. I don't trust 'em. I just don't.

This coalition has piss-all to with the economy and everything to do with power. And, frankly I'm fine with that. That's the way politics are played. I just get very pissy when people try to tell me it's different. And, given that politics is a power game, you have to take the long, strategic view. In the coalition, the NDP win - both short and long. In the short run, they get in Government. In the long run, they negate the Liberals. For the Bloc, they win short and long because they can show their stakeholders that, even with soveriegnty on the wane, they are still relevant. The Libs win short but lose very big long. The Tories lose short but win very big long. This is a bad, bad deal for the Libs.
erinjane
It was interesting listening to the comments that poured into the CBC after the annoncement was made today. Whereas the past few days they've been hearing pretty equally from both sides, people seemed really outraged that Jean allowed them to prorogue. But if Harper went in and laid his case out, it's really not her place to question if he's being truthful or not, so what choice did she really have?

I think all the parties (except maybe the bloc) have caused a lot of damage to themselves during this whole thing, but especially the liberals and conservatives. My head is spinning from the last weeks events. I don't really know what to think about it right now.
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(tommynomad @ Dec 4 2008, 12:38 PM) *
1. The Bloc are separatists bent on the destruction of Canada. This is typical neocon fearmongering. There are more separatists in Western Canada than in Quebec these days, and their bleating gets louder every minute.


The Bloc ARE separatists!! That's not neo-con or any ideology. That's what they are. They were formed when Lucien Bouchard broke from the Tories over Meech Lake. Their purpose in Ottawa - their explicit purpose - was - and is - to negoiate Quebec's secession from Confederation. That's who they are. The independence movement in Quebec is on the wane, no doubt, but let's not kind ourselves, the Bloc and the PQ want Quebec out of Canada. Or, at the very least, a very, very large slice of the Canadian cake.

As to comments about western separation, to call it a movement is very gross overstatement. There is western alienation, there always has been and there always will be. We're a long, long way from Ottawa and there is always a feeling out here of being put upon and taken advantage of federally. And, to a certain extent. it's fair comment. The West is under-represented in the House of Commons. And Alberta and its oil (And it is theirs. Subsurface rights are Provincial, not Federal.) have funded the Federal budget surpluses for the past 5 years, like it or not.

I'm probably the only one old enough to remember Trudeau's famous one-finger salute the crowds in Salmon Arm and the National Energy Programme. There's a long and complex history of the West's relationship with Upper & Lower Canada. There's a great book that examines Western alienation, I think it's written by Preston Manning (I know, another neo-con Stausian. It's still a great book.) and it's called "The Reluctant Patriots".

I love this country! We are so gloriously nutty and so terribly parochial. I love the fact that the outgoing US Ambassador may not brief Dubya on the current Canadian "crisis" because he's not sure he can explain it. I can just hear Dubya saying "You know, I still can't follow that damm puck and know their eating prorogoues?!"

Wonderful saying about Canada: We're a solution in search of a problem
juls
QUOTE
The West is under-represented in the House of Commons.


How so? And this is an honest, no-sarcasm question... just pure curiousity... Do you mean by relation to the money that Western provinces generate? Or population? Or something else?

If nothing else, at least this political hoopla is making Canadians think...
ChingusKhan
QUOTE
How so? And this is an honest, no-sarcasm question... just pure curiousity... Do you mean by relation to the money that Western provinces generate? Or population? Or something else?


By population. The national average is 1 MP per 98,000 persons. In BC and Alberta, it's 1 MP per 108,000 persons. In fairness to my friends back east, Ontario is also under-represented and Saskatchewan and Manitoba are over-represented. On balance, though, the West tends to be under-represented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_House_of_Commons
ChingusKhan
Just saw Stephan Dion's response to Harper's address... (I don't have the Youtube link but it's easy to find.)

For the sweet love of God, someone take this guy of the stage. If this coalition has any chance at all, keep Dion away from a camera. My kids' (They're 9 and 12.) videos have higher production values and, in the background, on his bookcase, you can see a book titled "Hot Air".

Dion's a great guy; he's extremely bright and his work on the Quebec file while he was in Chretien's Cabinet was first-rate. He crafted the Clarity Bill and, for that, all Canadians owe him a debt. He does not, though, have the royal jelly.
pepper
good maude, it's embarassing to be a canadian these days. how ridiculous does this have to get, eh?

hot air indeed.

what's wrong with bob rae already? sure, he made mistakes when he was heading up the ndp but as my aunt who works for the school board recently reminded me, even though they didn't love it at the time it saved their jobs. he's tough lovin' and speaks the lingo sans the cretien-type incomprehensibility. dude. when will those liberals learn?
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(pepper @ Dec 6 2008, 12:33 PM) *
what's wrong with bob rae already? sure, he made mistakes when he was heading up the ndp but as my aunt who works for the school board recently reminded me, even though they didn't love it at the time it saved their jobs. he's tough lovin' and speaks the lingo sans the cretien-type incomprehensibility. dude. when will those liberals learn?


Rae's un-electable out west and, I suspect, he'd have a heck of time in Ontario outside Toronto. The pity of Liberal party politics at the moment is that the two best candidates - McKenna and Manley - have passed! Manley, especially.
ChingusKhan
The coalition's dead.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home
Christine Nectarine
well, that was fast. i guess it had to be.
i'm no Ignatieff fan, but this plan laid out by the article would seem to make the most sense for the Liberal party.
juls
QUOTE(ChingusKhan @ Dec 8 2008, 06:29 PM) *



I disagree. I think that it was hopeless with Dion leading it.

It now might have an actual chance.
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(juls @ Dec 8 2008, 11:58 AM) *
I disagree. I think that it was hopeless with Dion leading it.

It now might have an actual chance.


With respect, not a chance. I just watched about 1/2 hour of CBC Newsworld and the Liberal Party looks to be damm near imploding. Ignatieff looks to be the front-runner but Rae is disputing the process. Plus, now, according to some media, at least 3 BC MP's - Joyce Murray, Ujhal Dosanj and Hedy Fry - are saying that they say the Libs should support a Harper budget in January.

Put a fork in it. It's over
vixen_within
QUOTE(geekchickknits @ Dec 3 2008, 09:25 PM) *
I have never seen Stephen Harper smile a smile that doesn't look forced and fake. His little schpeal tonight was just repeating what he had already said without giving us anything about what he would ACTUALLY DO. AND HE LIED.

Stephan Dion on the other hand, in spite of his tape arriving late, presented us with some solutions, and a timeline, and made it very clear that what was happening was actually very democratic, and exactly how our democracy is supposed to work.

Please, Madame Jean, Your Excellency, PLEASE, give the coalition a chance.



Ug, I hate Harper and his dead dead eyes.

Dion was the only liberal that ever tempted me to switch my NDP allegiance. I'm curious about what Ignatieff will bring to the table. I still have hope for the coalition. It makes sense for the house and ALL of its elected reps to work together right now, which is something dead-eyes clearly cannot fathom.
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(vixen_within @ Dec 9 2008, 05:03 PM) *
Ug, I hate Harper and his dead dead eyes.


I am genuinely curious about something: Why is it that all of us demonize those that we don't agree with politically?

I see and read people saying terrible things about Dion, Harper, Rae, all of them. And they are personal things, as if the person saying or writing them really knows the person they are writing or talking about. That always strikes me a foolish. I get the politics of it; I just wonder how many actually really believe it. I, for one, don't.

As a personal example, I would NEVER (again) vote NDP, either federally or provincially. I think the NDP platform makes no sense economically, I think the party is beholden to big unions and I think their world view is, in general, is naive, at best. That being said, Jack Layton and ALL his MP's deserve my respect. He, I think, truly believes that he is doing the right thing for all of us. I think he's wrong but I get to vote on that. To my mind, I don't get to call him "smarmy", "slick" or "Taliban Jack". I get to disagree with him. I don't get to attack him on a personal level.

I just don't get this visceral hatred of politicians as people. I don't get how those on the supposed "right" can insult Dion the person any more than I understand how those on the "left" can attack Stephen Harper, the person.
vixen_within
It amuses. And "Hate" is hyperbole, when it comes to public figures we've never met. Is this not obvious?
ChingusKhan
QUOTE(vixen_within @ Dec 10 2008, 05:45 PM) *
It amuses. And "Hate" is hyperbole, when it comes to public figures we've never met. Is this not obvious?


For me, it just lowers the whole discussion.
vixen_within
QUOTE(ChingusKhan @ Dec 11 2008, 12:54 AM) *
For me, it just lowers the whole discussion.


Kindly get out of my face you arrogant, passive aggressive, bag of conceit.
geekchickknits
QUOTE(ChingusKhan @ Dec 10 2008, 08:14 PM) *
I am genuinely curious about something: Why is it that all of us demonize those that we don't agree with politically?


It is not demonizing to say that he comes across as insincere, or that there is no light behind his eyes, giving him a "dead eye" look.

I have no respect for Harper as he has absolutely no respect for me or the Canadian public. His policies are hypocritical. He refuses to engage the press in meaningful coverage. During the election, he insulted my chosen field and all the people who work in it and patronize it. He lies to the Canadian public and encourages his MPs to continue the lie. Although he is currently the leader of my country, he does not represent me.

I don't HATE him (because I don't hate anyone) but he angers me, and frustrates me and I have a strong dislike for the policies, the attitude, and the man I perceive him to be. I have a visceral reaction to him: when I see him on tv, or read about him I get nauseous.

However, to be concise, I would likely say that I hate Stephen Harper and the fact that he is our PM.
pepper
it's hard not to take politics personally when they have such impact on our personal lives. the political actions of the conservative party have a HUGE impact on my kids and i and i really feel it. it makes me angry, who else to hold accountable for it than the party responsibly, most particularly it's leader? i can't be analytical about it, it's way too intense for that for me.

though i do agree that hatefulness can lower the whole discussion. it may be more valid to talk about what and why rather than how much we hate it. our feelings do have a place here though. i suppose the balance of that is going to be different for each of us so we'll just have to take from the conversation what speaks to us and leave the rest.
erinjane
Perfectly put, pepper.
pepper
usually i get my head bitten off for attempts at keeping the peace unsure.gif so thanks for that wink.gif .
must be the holiday spirit. merry ho ho! do you have snow? here is the fruit belt we aren't seeing much of it yet. it's nippy out though, brr. cold without snow is just sucky. if i have to freeze i at least want it to be pretty!
erinjane
We absolutely have snow here. It's been fucking freezing the last week and a half or so. Sudden cold snap, so we've been around -35 with the windchill. CH was saying in another thread how much it sucks because it went from decent not too cold weather to freezing your toes off weather, although last night wasn't too bad. I think we're getting more snow this weekend though. But i've always enjoyed the snow and shorter days and things like that. I think it's comfortable and cozy.
culturehandy
It's hard to be pleasant when it's going to be -45 with the windchill.

Erg. It's only December I fear to know what the weather will be link in January. CH not happy about this.
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