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missjuliet
Dear lovely Bustees,

I know I'm still a newbie here, but I am in a terrible place right now and need some advice.

Today I discovered that my boyfriend has a "porn problem"

My father had a terrible problem with porn as well and it led to my parents divorce. Because of this, porn is a really touchy subject for me.

I've told him about my father and why it upsets me before. I confronted him about it and he lied, but I was sneaky and went on his computer where I saw some really strange things. It had to do with drawn animals and it was really disturbing.

Anyway, I'm terribly upset and was wondering if I'm overreacting.

Do all guys really watch porn?

If you're going out with a guy do you feel it's ok if they do watch it?

And if you feel it's ok do you ever feel upset that he isn't satisfied with you and you only?

I'm so confused and upset.

He said he'd change, but I'm not sure what to believe.

Please help!

<3
girlbomb
Hi there, missjuliet.

I'm sorry to hear that you're feeling so lousy. The porn issue can be very tricky in relationships, if both partners do not agree on it. It sounds to me like porn upsets you very much (and while nobody has to have a "reason" to feel their feelings, it sounds like you have a very solid reason for not liking porn -- you've seen it hurt relationships before). Whereas your boyfriend likes porn and wants to continue using it. So in a way, it's like any other relationship issue -- you want one thing, he wants another. If both of you can compromise, you can work it out; if not, you probably can't.

The thing is, in my experience, one partner does not tend to stop using porn because the other partner wants them to. The porn user (again, in my experience, both lived and read about) tends to say they will stop using, but they don't. If you've confronted him about it before and he's lied, it's probably because he doesn't want to stop using porn, and all the discussions in the world won't change his desire to use.

So maybe it's worth asking yourself, Is this a dealbreaker? Can I live with someone who uses porn, especially porn that I find disturbing, or not? Because expecting other people to change their deeply ingrained pleasure-habits for us often leads to heartbreak. Maybe he will quit using porn, but it doesn't seem likely. It's always safer to assume that the other person won't change; that way, we aren't pinning our futures to someone else's actions. The only ones we can change are ourselves. And I'm not suggesting that you change into someone who loves porn -- that seems as unlikely as changing your partner into a non-user. But the pain and confusion in your post is apparent, and I hope you will be able to change something about the situation so that you are happy, with or without him.

Good luck, lady.
missjuliet
::hugs::

Thank you for the reply.

Is your boyfriend watching porn really that terrible or am I completely overreacting though?

He says he's given it up forever and I know I shouldn't believe him, but I want to so badly.

We've been together for 2 years and I've never known this side of him, but I want so badly to just forgive and forget. If I ever find out he never even tried to cut back I'd completely break down.

Again, thank you for the reply dear.

<3
knorl05
missjuliet- essentially it sounds like you are asking if his behavior is normal.. and whether or not your reaction to it is normal. porn is a question of ethics - of personal morals. you have a very specific reason for hating porn.. the experiences you've had with it have been damaging. perhaps the only bad experience he has had with porn, is that it threatens your relationship. i do not think he has "given up" on porn. he may put off on watching it because it upsets you, but to him there is nothing wrong with porn. he either has to see porn as wrong, or unnecessary, in order for him to stop watching it. maybe he watched porn because it wasnt that big of a deal to him to begin with.. as though maybe he never really had a problem, maybe he just watched it out of boredom, curiousity, or to prove something about his manness. here he has a great, sensitive girlfriend who cares about him a lot. he's willing to give up on an activity that he enjoys for you because YOU ARE WORTH IT. but if in fact it is a problem for him, that could signify sexual addiction, and that is something entirely different. keep your eyes and ears open. dont be blind because it feels easier. if you notice his behavior is a problem for you, you are the one who has to decide whether or not the relationship is worth it.
missjuliet

Thank you for the response knorl happy.gif

First he said he knew what he was doing was a bad habit, but he wrote me a note today stating that he forgot that I was so "sensitive" and not that he had a problem.

I can't tell if he's sincere about giving it up or not.

I have a strong opinion about porn, but that doesn't make my opinion right.

If all guys watch it then isn't it me who has the problem?

::many hugssss::

<3
tatiana
QUOTE(missjuliet @ Jul 15 2006, 05:27 PM) *


If all guys watch it then isn't it me who has the problem?



All guys don't watch it. Porn--whether it's online or video or whatever--just doesn't do anything for some people. It is possible to find guys who don't use it, but whether it's a dealbreaker if your guy does is up to you. It might help to figure out what--write down, I'm a writer; I can't help it--it says to you. Does it mean unfaithfulness? Does it mean disrespect? Does it mean abandonment? If you figure this out you might be better able to explain to your boyfriend what his behaviour is saying to you--and if he is still comfortable with it, maybe you need to think about whether you want someone who is ok doing that to you.

Two years may seem like a long time, but it's not a lifetime. If he doesn't give it up, can you live with it? It's ok if the answer is no, but it's better to admit to yourself that's it's a dealbreaker now than after you've invested more in the relationship. If you're unsure whether you have a grip on your reaction to porn because of your past history, maybe you should go to a few counselling sessions to get an objective opinion as to whether you are rational about this or a joint-session so that an objective outsider can help the two of you discuss it in a meaningful way. This may be too extreme for you.

i wouldn't put up with it, but that's me. I'm ok with the occasional curious look (which I've also done from time to time) but not with compulsive behaviour or daily viewing. It's ok to have your own standards and stick to them--you just have to accept that it may be a dealbreaker.
knorl05
missjuliet: of course. biggrin.gif

you're pretty open minded and mature to realize that one opinion is not the "right" opinion, it is simply an opinion based on an individual's circumstances. but for you, you are right. there is absolutely nothing wrong with being sensitive, dont let him turn it around like you're overreacting or anything like that. you do not have to be cool with it if you dont want to be. you dont have to give up your ideals, morals, or ethics, for his approval.

what else have you got in common? what do you like about him? do you see his facsination with porn progressing, or subsiding, with your distaste to it? is he making you feel like you are "wrong" for your feelings? as tatiana said, not all guys DO like porn. just because your experience with men has been that they like porn does not mean that all guys find it acceptable. you do not have to give up on your beliefs, and think that you are always going to have to date men who are porn fanatics.. just stay strong in who you are.
missjuliet
-->Tatiana,

I do believe it means unfaitfulness. What he watches - male domination porn - I find immensely disrespectful as well. I'm fine with a curious look, I've definitely done that, but he does a lot of masterbating to this stuff. I feel that he's almost cheating on me considering he is visualizing having sex with many other women.

It's a relief to hear that all guys do not watch it, but I'm so comfortable with him. I know that that feeling is a common reason why breaking up is so difficult, but I'm afraid of losing "love" (if I can even call it that anymore). If I broke up with him, my only reasons for trying again were that I thought he wasn't a porn addict and I felt that he'd never cheat on me. All of this things have been shot to hell and I still don't know why I want to keep trying.

I'm not ok with it, but he keeps promising he's completely done with it and that this whole ordeal has made it impossible for him to enjoy watching it. I'm so wary to believe him because he's made promises before that he never kept.

Thank you for responding, all of these responses have helped so much...<3
missjuliet
-->knorl

You're response made me tear. Hah. I do need to stay strong with who I am, you're completely right. If I went back with him I'd constantly be remembering what he was watching while he was with me. I'm not the most confident person and the fact that he needed porn makes me feel completely unattractive. I need to be in a better relationship.

He was a very sweet boy. Very funny, smart, and we share so many things in common it's ridiculous. I just don't think I'll ever be able to trust him again. I also thought he was caring, but after lying to me for 2 years I've had a change of heart.

Thank you for responding again<333333
katiebelle2882
hey missjuliet

I think your reasons for disliking porn are very important and valid, so dont ever think they arent. However, a porn addiction and just viewing porn are two totally different things in general. However, given your history, i can see why that distinction may not be so clear. But I just want to know what exactly is a porn addict in your mind? I mean, most porn addicts cant have a normal sexual relationship (doesnt seem to be his case). just watching porn doesnt consitutte one in the most basic sense.

That being said as well, male domination porn=so not cool. however, porn is just that, fantasy, and alot of times what people find sexually stimulating in porn is NOT what they need/want to do in real life. I dont know about thinking that porn is cheating, but that is where it comes down to personal belief. I mean, the fact of the matter is, most guys (and girls) and some point (porn or no porn) visualize having sex with people other than their partner. It's called imagination, and many people would say it keeps relationships alive bc its not cheating but it gives the person of the illusion of something different. Personally, I think its a little unrealistic to think that the love of your life will think of you and only you for 50 plus years of being together and marriage. I think expecting that out of a guy almost makes them lie to you bc its just not possible for many.


That goes back to the fact that he lied to you. Maybe if he explained his position better instead of saying he wouldnt do it and then going back on his word you two wouldnt be in this position. I do think there has to be some compromise here (maybe watching it together?), bc I am not sure if its fair to just be like you have to stop. I mean, all of us busties would SO not be ok with that if the situation was reversed.

i dont know a single guy who doesnt watch porn, although i would say there must be some out there. its a tall order, i wont lie.

also remember, alot of this could come down to insecurity, which, its important to realize that porn does NOT equal, him wanting to actually be with other women. it also doesnt equal him wanting you to look like or do the things those women do. its just not the case in most circumstances. most of the time its what guy would NEVER want his GF to do, but since hes sexually curious, he wants other outlets for things without having to ask you, or do something he would be uncomfortable doing in real life.

what knorl said is true, stay strong, but also remember you are asking him to change, so you have to consider doing so as well. hence the whole compromise thing. what girlbomb said is correct, most people wont stop viewing porn if they enjoy it (for better or for worse) so some sort of middle ground is going to have to be reached. i dont think you should necessarily feel as betrayed as you do, bc he sounds like an otherwise great guy. he should respect your beliefs and background more though, bc it is serious what you went thru with your father, so more communication should definitly have been initiated on his part FROM the get go.

I dont know how i feel about snooping on peoples computers for stuff, but hey, we have all done it.


All this is null and void if he truly is a porn addict.
pixiedust
Porn played a heavy role in my divorce....I always used to like looking at porn with my ex, but it became an addiction and I didn't even fully realize the extent of it until after we were broken up and I started finding crap hidden all over my house! There is defintiely a difference betwen someone who looks at porn for an occasional stimulation and someone who has a full on problem. It becomes an addiction/problem when they can't be truthful about it and lie and hide it to keep from being found out. So then, not only do they have a porn problem, they have created a deceitful wedge between you which is even worse for the relationship.

As much as you want to belive him, my guess is that if he has lied to you about it once, he will lie again. I think it is really the lies that are the most damaging. Lying becomes easier the more we do it and opens the doors for other things.
cloverbee
pixie, I have been there. I dumped my last boyfriend for "cheating" on me w/ the internet porn. It was sucking the life out of our relationship and sex life. and that is an addiction. he was coming home from work on his lunch break and doing it. it was pretty bad. he would do it when I was home. he always hid it but I found out.
I like to watch porn w/ a guy maybe once a year and that's enough for me. and you all are so right. not every guy likes porn but I have met a lot who were at some point addicted to it. it's a serious issue and don't ever let anyone tell you it isn't or try to invalidate your feelings over it.
we are here for you and I do understand.
katiebelle2882
ew on his lunch break cloverbee? if anyone at any point has to lie to their significant other about what they are doing, it usually means they even know they have a problem. its the same as lying about alcohol or drugs. if hes really looking at porn that much its a serious issue. if hes doing every once in awhile i wouldnt say it is. but i would think looking at porn every single day would be a problem. does anyone else here have like an amount that would make it too much? i mean where do we draw the line in terms of problem vs no problem?

i just am so surprised so many people have known guys who have such a problem. maybe i do and i dont know it. its never been any of my boyfriends but i would assume i have to know someone.

miss juliet- i agree with pixie in that its the lying that does the most damage. you can disagree on certain issues in a relationship but the only way those issues are going to be worked out is if theres communication. hes pretty much severed that for you by severing your trust in him as well.

pixiedust
It really does make the sex life suffer. An occasional fantasy dur ing sex is probably healthy, but if you HAVE to fantasize to get off, there is a problem! My ex got that bad. He got offended because I didn't dress up for his birthday nookie....not that he told me beforehand that he expected this. And he also told me the last time we did it that he didn't "get off" although he clearly came. And he tried to pull a Clinton insisting that oral sex with someone else wasn't sex or personal...umm..yeah you just had your face in her snatch!

I'm sorry, but those women in porn are not REAL. Most of them have had implants, lazer hair removal or other painful procedures to look like that..and they are airbrushed to boot! There is no way *I* am ever going to look like that, so the man I am with must be happy with short, squatty, and insatiable! And these guys fail to realize that girls that DO look like that...are never going to give them a second glance! They have to have someone to pay for all those procedures!

Mr. Pixie isn't even all that into porn, thank goodness. We do enjoy looking through magazines together occasionally and making up little fantasies. But he doesn't even own a video..and he likes soft porn rather than the hard core XXX stuff my ex used to like.
katiebelle2882
yeah you definitly shouldnt have to fantasize about someone else to get off every single time.

pixie, most guys i know who occasionally look at porn (not addicts) realize that those girls arent real, i think the problem becomes when, like you said, they really dont. which most certainly happens.

there is porn that has very real looking girls in it, but guys who are in to that bizarre hardcore stuff certainly dont appreciate women-centered porn.

knorl05
missjuliet: wink.gif i'm so happy for you to take a stand for what you believe in. i think many more people would be happier in the long run if they just stood up for their own ideals. number one, when you're happy in a relationship, you make the other person happy. when one person is not happy, the relationship suffers. good for you to move on!

on a side note, please remember those women are objectifying themselves. they are in the porn industry.. it is their JOB to look like that, to act like that. do not ever compare yourself to them because who you are is much more valuable than their fake, superficial, fading images. be good to yourself. smile.gif xo.
zahia1996
Miss Juliet- I really feel for your situation. Porn is just a touchy subject all around, and it varies for everyone. In the past, i didn't have a problem with it. But it led to some pretty signifigant issues with my husband. He used it when he was single, no big deal. He stopped using it after we got together. But then after being deployed in Iraq for a year, he came back a totally different person. He needed it all the time. Nothing I did was enough, no matter how much we had sex, he still needed porn. At first he lied and tried to be sneaky, but I always found out. Laying in bed alone, after I tried to get him to have sex with me, and he chose to just watch porn instead, was humiliating. Being told how to dress, how to look, what things to say... I essentially became his living. breathing blow up doll. Every day after work, it was the first thing he'd do. When I was laying in bed sick, he'd just download it onto the laptop and whack off on the other side of it. I tried to "be cool" with it for a little while, but it became so obvious that it affected our entire relationship. I felt like it was all my fault, and I must be behind the times or what not, because I know some girls are fine with it. But the thing is...he stopped touching me, kissing me and all of that. Sex became 100% about fucking. It got steadily more degrading. It was just an awful experience all around. And he knew how much it upset me, but for some reason, all I would ever get were vague promises to "cut down". Or "don't worry, it has nothing to do with you". I felt like a completely worthless piece of shit. Finally, due to the frequent anxiety attacks, sleeplessness, and general depression I was feeling about it I went to counseling for myself. It has helped tremendously. It helped me to see that it wasn't "my fault", and that my feelings were valid. It was something I had been so ashamed and embarassed about I hadn't discussed it with any of my friends.
The happy ending (so far) to this is that my husband actually took it upon himself to look at the deeper reasons as to why he needed it so much. He also realized that as much as I love him, this is not something I could live with for the rest of my life. He finally got himself into counseling, and made a commitment to stop. Its been a struggle for both of us. There is so much stigma attached to both sides of the debate. Men don't want to be seem as slimeballs, women don't want to be viewed as prudes. Then on the flip side...being a military couple, he gets heckled alot by the guys for not watching it anymore, and they constantly have it around the workplace. Its expected that us gals will just put up with it and let guys be guys.
My advice to anyone out there dealing with this is, if something makes you that uncomfortable, it is worth taking a stand over. The damage it can do to your self esteem and relationship can be so huge otherwise. And also be patient. My husband certainly didn't change overnight, but he did come around. His attitude towards it now is that its just not worth a marriage. And no relationship is ever worth feeling like crap about yourself. Obviously, not everyone has a habit to the extent he did...so it is good to try and keep and open mind I think...but if its something you feel strongly about, don't be ashamed of that.
katiebelle2882
knorl,

i am not really sure insulting women who work in the sex industry is the answer to this. they have their own reasons whether you agree with them or not. there are busties who are in the sex industry, and while it may not necessarily be porn, your comment is a little condescending to women who find empowerment in what they do and who have made a conscious choice. i know different feminisms treat porn and the sex industry differetly, but while we may not agree i still think its important to respect decisions and try to understand why they are making those decisions. its certainly not their fault certain men in particular cant use porn in a healthy, productive manner that is not detrimental to their relationships with their siginificant others.

zahia-that sucks, i am glad you are working it out.


also, i mean i hardly think women should be viewed as prudes when they see something negatively affecting their sex life and want to do something about it. that is just ridiculous that we have to even consider something like that. thats where the difference between normal use of porn and things you guys have experienced comes into play.





erinjane
QUOTE(katiebelle2882 @ Jul 18 2006, 10:19 AM) *

knorl,

i am not really sure insulting women who work in the sex industry is the answer to this. they have their own reasons whether you agree with them or not. there are busties who are in the sex industry, and while it may not necessarily be porn, your comment is a little condescending to women who find empowerment in what they do and who have made a conscious choice. i know different feminisms treat porn and the sex industry differetly, but while we may not agree i still think its important to respect decisions and try to understand why they are making those decisions. its certainly not their fault certain men in particular cant use porn in a healthy, productive manner that is not detrimental to their relationships with their siginificant others.




I just wanted to second this, as I wouldn't have been able to put it so nicely. smile.gif (I have strong feelings on that issue.)
pixiedust
Zahia, thanks for sharing that! You really summed up how it was with me and my ex. I cheated on him..multiple times, so I am no Saint, but I think part of it was trying to find someone who didn't treat me like an object, or expect me to be their own personal blow up doll. Unfortunately I went about it the wrong way and objectified myself even more. But I needed that missing affection and appreciation I wasn't getting at home.
missjuliet
You all are amazing<3 Thanks for helping me through this.

It helps to know that other girls have gone through this.

Pixiedust - Thank you for sharing. I'm glad you were able to find a person who isn't as bad as your ex and are enjoying a healthy relationship.

Katiebelle - I wasn't the one that called him a porn addict. He told me he was when I confronted him about the things I saw on his computer. He said that he would only do it once every week at the most, but I don't believe him. For him to call himself an addict I believe that he was doing it every day. I am extremely insecure and that is something that I need to overcome by myself, but that shouldn't be a cop out for him and how I'm feeling about this.

Cloverbee - Thank you so much and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

Zahia - Thank you so much for sharing as well. Again, knowing I'm not the only one is such a relief. I'm glad both of you are trying to work it out and that he cares about you enough to really try and make a change.

>How did it change everyone's sex life though?
I was so surprise when he said he was addict; not only because he told me he wasn't but because I've always pictured an addict as someone very disrespectful to women. He isn't at all. Except watching the Male-dom stuff, which I think is disrepectful by itself. But he was a virgin when I met him, when I wanted to have sex he said he wasn't ready, and when we finally did have sex he gave me this huge speech about how this was something very special that we'd share for the rest of our lives. He also would never try anything when we had sex. I mean he'd suggest positions but he was never extremely rough with me.

He did give me the "I'm tired" ruitine a lot and I always had wondered why.

The reason I am so insecure today is from my boyfriend. He was constantly telling me what would look better on me - hair color, clothes, makeup, etc. My mother thought I turned into a complete prostitute (granted my mother is a pretty big conservative) and I never noticed why he liked all of those things until now.

Again thank you so much for all of your responses =^.^=
katiebelle2882
missjuliet,

i think you pretty much answered your own question. if he called himself a porn addict, and is still lying about it, then i think some action needs to be taken. a porn addict doesnt look at porn only once a week, so you are right on with that assessment. also, i know you said hes a good guy otherwise etc etc, but no good guy makes you feel insecure about yourself, whether its through porn or something else. thats horrible that he has done this to you, i dont care how he did it, the effects are still there. i have never gone through anything like this so i would take all those other busties who have advice. they know what they are talking about! you deserve so much better.
lucizoe
Hi missjuliet,

I wanted to say that everyone's responses here have been very thoughtful. I think you've gotten some really great advice. I suppose all I really want to add is that not all men view/use porn. Mr.Luci owned one tape when we got together, a gift from a friend who clearly had no idea who he really was. It was about three years old and still in its shrink wrap.

Not terribly productive, I know, just wanted to get it out there.

Good luck!

(((missjuliet)))
zahia1996
Miss Juilet-
There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what a porn addict is. I certainly never would have pictured my husband as one. In every regard outside our sex life he was kind, thoughtful, sweet, and caring. I had far more sexual experience (and partners) than he did. And it wasn't like he used it all day every day. Sometimes there was a couple weeks where it would only be once a week. I still hesitate to even call it an addiction, but it certainly carries some of the same characteristics of addiction across the board. For instance, he didn't even really enjoy it. He usually felt bad and ashamed about it, but still felt a compulsion to use it. Another thing was he would try and "cut back" only to have it go out of control again. Another thing was the escalation in what he wanted to see. It gradually got more and more hardcore and degrading. It also wasn't even really about sex. It was how he dealt with stress, anxiety, and depression. Unfortunately, it did seep into other areas of his life as well. I started noticing more and more all his casual joking about rape, which pretty much horrified me. To him it was funny and no big deal. It also became no big deal for him to come home from work, tell me to pull down my pants so he could fuck me, and if I hesitated, just say "nevermind, I'll just go jerk off and watch porn". This from the guy who always helped around the house, surprised me with gifts, and normally treated me like a princess.
I guess my point is, that just like there are closet, functioning alcoholics that you would never expect have a problem, the same thing can happen with porn. Likewise, some people have a healthy outlook and use of alcohol, and some people do with porn.
One thing that really helped me in dealing with the situation with him was to try and stop looking at it as Porn The Enemy (which made me feel insecure and crappy) and try and deal with it like I would if he had any other substance abuse issue. When I was able to discuss it with him without making moral judgements, or getting super emotional, we were able to have more honest in-depth discussions. It was also extremely helpful for me to get counseling, separate from him, to deal with the self esteem issues it brought out in me. It was only after a couple of months of that, that I was able to finally take a real stand and say that this isn't the life I want, i deserve better. All the flowers in the world don't make up for making the person you're supposed to love above anyone else feel like a prostitute or piece of garbage.
I wish you all the luck in dealing with this issue, and kudos for being brave enough to bring it up. I struggled for months and months alone because I was so afraid of people telling me I was ridiculous or that it was my fault.
cloverbee
wow zahie, your comments were very enlightening, thank you. I agree with your assessment of what is considered an 'addiction' as well. I know from my personal experience, it was sucking the life right out of our relationship and that is the determining factor for what is considered 'cheating'. I also know that my self-esteem took a huge nosedive which got me very angry at him (my then boyfriend). I flew into a rage when I found his porn stash and I kicked him out of the house and everything. on top of it all, he had the nerve to sit there and lie to me about it. it was unreal.
I don't understand the appeal of the hard-core stuff but I can tell you that porn is dangerous to certain individuals. most notably teenagers. I was taught in college that if a boy views porn before he undergoes puberty, his sex life will be forever tainted. I know it sounds hokey but it is true. He will never have a 'normal' sex life. It's something about the wiring in the brain, almost like some psychopathic individuals that pair sex with violence and, well, you saw what happened to Jeffery Dahmer didn't you?
Anyway, porn will be around forever and people hundreds of years from now will have these same problems. Good luck everyone.
pixiedust
I'm amazed at how much I am enjoying this thread. I had a similar relationship Zahia. By all outwards appearances my ex was a very loving, devoted husband. I think that is why our closest friends didn't really believe what happened and put the blame on me for the affairs withotu considering what caused tehm in the first place. It was almost like a seperate part of his personality. And when he got depressed and angry, that part of his personality took over. We had talked and I had admitted to being unhappy and his response was to go out an have an affair with my best friend(this was before he knew about my affairs) And that is so out of character for him. That was why I was willing at first to try and work things out. But he finally lost control and got violent.
And it is very progressive. We started out looking at soft porn..some posed women that sort of thing, but when we were splitting up one night he showed me all the folders of porn hidden on his computer and the titles were for things far more hardcore and degrading than I would have ever expected him to be into.
I don't really think porn itself is dangerous. It's how the person responds to it. If they get compulsive, lie, hide it or become ashamed, then yes it is a problem. But say Mr. Pixie wanted to pick up a magazine and flip through it, I would have no problem with that. He's up front with me about things like that, and he's not going to do things he's ashamed to tell me about.
And just a side thought...We've all talked about how the porn made our self esteem go down...But I can't help wondering about the men who were addicted. I mean if they were ashamed of doing it, that could have an impact of their male ego to be losing control of a compulsion to do something that makes them feel bad.
katiebelle2882
i would think that just like any other addiction it makes everyone involved self esteem go down. whether your SO is ignoring you bc he rather spend his time with drugs, alcohol, or porn, i would say thats pretty degrading to the other person in the relationship. i think porn would be especially bad since women can't aspire to be a bottle of jack daniels, but can look at the images in porn and wonder "if i was like that would he be attracted to me?".
zahia1996
You totally hit the nail on the head Katiebelle. Its hard not to take it especially personally and think that the problem is because you're not attractive enough. But in the end, it is just like any other addiction. I asked my husband how the whole experience made him feel, and it was just like Pixie said...he felt like a failure for not being able to control it, and he said he felt like a horrible person for how much it hurt me. He also has a lot of guilt about it. But I give him big props for being able to admit he needed help, and actually seeking out a doctor who specializes in that sort of thing. For as much damage as it did to our relationship for a while, I really do have a newfound respect for him. Especially considering how much flak he gets for it from his Army buddies. I'm really proud of him for what he's done.
knorl05
katiebelle2882: thanks for your feedback. instead of just focusing on that one comment, if you look back a few, you will see that i clearly state one opinion is not the RIGHT opinion. i further stated that we each have opinions about [porn] based on our own experiences with it. this female has come here looking for support from other women, because she has had very harmful, detrimental experiences with pornography. this thread is not centered on supporting women in the porn industry. i'm sure there are many women who feel empowered by their sexuality that is true, and they are free to choose how they want to live. but this thread does not deal with understanding the potential upside of using porn, or the positive aspects of sexual expression. there are times to be politically correct, and there are times to deal with a situation with compassion, support, and concern.
erinjane
knorl, I don't think katie was implying that we should use this thread to support women in the industry, but that we should be respectful of the choices people make regardless of our opinion of porn especially considering there are a good number of busties involved in various forms of sex work. I'm not trying to be hostile here, but I view it as similar to when women with small breasts tear down women with big breasts, for example. We shouldn't have to tear down one group to justify our own feelings. We can still be compassionate and supportive without insulting people who do choose to become involved in sex work. smile.gif
katiebelle2882
Erin is correct, I in know way want this thread to turn into one to support women in the sex industry. I know why Juliet came here, and I think pretty much all of the posts have addressed her problem. I know you have said everyone has a different opinion, I however took your comment as condescending to women in the sex industry bc you said something derogatory about them while trying to support Juliet.


I think women tear down other women in order to make themselves feel better, and I think we can change that dominant paradigm. we can sit here and be sympathetic to juliet without saying something along the lines of "they are objectifying themselves" etc etc. its not productive to either party, and that was my only point.
pixiedust
Ummm....I don't even see where anyone was tearing down the BUSTies in the sex industry. Yes Khorl said women in porn are objectifying themselves. And it's true. Porn is giving a man an object to lust after...not a warm emotional person. All the PC crap is BS. When someone is hurting they do not want to hear that their hurt feelings are disrespectful to people who choose to do the thing that hurts them.

You know, I am a Christian and a Republican and there has been a lot of hate posts posted against both groups on here lately, But you know what, I'm a big Girl and I know these posts are not directed at me personally, and these people need to vent their frustrations, but I am not going to go around telling them they are being disrespectful to me because they are upset by things happening. I would not invalidate their feelings like that.
katiebelle2882
i also want to add that in order to be compassionate and supportive doesnt mean you have to say something obnoxious about another group in order to make the person feel better. i object to the type of support that is basically telling the other person what they want to hear instead of reality. by being condescending towards women in the sex industry thats exactly what you are doing. making juliet feel better by telling her what she wants to hear (or what you presume she wants to hear): that these women are objectifying themselves and are plastic caricatures. this is how women tear down other women. we can BE compassionate towards her without telling her or insinuating that she is above these women. No, shes not above these women, shes above her boyfriend who is making her feel emotionally insecure about herself through HIS behavior, not through what he looks at.
katiebelle2882
i never said her feelings are disrespectful to her boyfriend. i am saying that this has everything to do with her boyfriend and NOTHING to do with porn or how these women"objectify" themselves as you say, etc etc. i see no reason to bring the actual actors in porn into it, especially the women. this is not being PC this is saying its unacceptable for women to continue blaming eachother as a means to make one feel better about themselves. in no way am i invalidating juliet's feelings on the matter, i think they are completely understandable as are everyone elses.
missjuliet
It depends what porn you're talking about.

Male domination porn has nothing to do with the power of woman, it has to do with just the opposite.

I do however, have much respect for women in the porn industry who are making a stand using porn and showing that the female body is not only beautiful but immensely powerful.

Knorl was right for the porn I was mentioning. My boyfriend had been watching a lot of Male dom. porn in which I found to be incredibly disrespectful to me and to all women. (My opinion of course)

Anyway..........

You all have been a tremendous help<3

I've decided to give my boyfriend another chance.

He said he wants to change and wants my help to change. I'm wary to believe him but he even gave me his password for his computer and asked me to check whenever I have a suspicion.

I'm not sure how it will all turn out but I thank you for all of the kind advice and enlightening past experiences.

Thank you so much dear Busties<3
knorl05
that's interesting that one would automatically assume my opinion about another group of women has anything to do with my self perception. being a liberal minded woman, i have known many women in the sex industry over the past decade. and what i have come to learn about these women is that their choices are rooted more in greed and power struggles than anything else. they are attempting to use and manipulate men. when in reality they are allowing themselves to be used and manipulated. in my opinion, from what i have experienced, these women are lying to themselves if they pretend they are empowered through the sex industry. this is my opinion from what i have seen. these women are far from a threat to me. to be honest, i think it is sad that women have been lead to believe that using themselves as a sexual object (which, yes, as pixie pointed out, this is what they are doing) is at all liberating. i have seen more women bound to this lifestyle, who would rather not be, simply for making a poor choice when they were young and impressionable. i suppose the reason i have such strong opinions about it, is that i DO support all women... and the view i have of porn is negative because i think it's sad that so many women are lead down that path with false promises of power and admiration through sex and money. sure there may be the few who remain unscathed or truly enjoy what they are doing... but those cases are rare. i would much rather discourage women from the draw or appeal of the sex industry by being honest about it. the industry itself is rooted in the exploitation of sexual fantasies. let's be realistic. if you make the choice to be a porn star, more power to you... but dont act surprised when you face resistance towards your lifestyle. i do not tell anyone how to live their lives. i would not attempt to stop anyone from making a choice that they think they want to make. but i will have my opinion about it, and i will speak my opinion about it regardless of how it will be received.
cloverbee
All Knorl said was that these women are portraying a "fake" and "superficial" image which is exactly right. They are selling a fantasy that no real woman can ever live up to. It would take nerves of steel not to get intimidated and to keep your self-esteem intact after being looked over by the one you love for a fantasy. I don't think that is degrading these people to say that they are fake and superficial. Nobody rents a porno by themselves to experience a deep and profound connection to another human being. They just want to get their rocks off and if a real human doesn't do it for them, well, they may have some underlying intimacy issues to deal with.
anonymousfeminist
Lurker delurks to educate:

I don't think that most of the posters understand the dynamics of BDSM sex play and that's why they find it so disturbing. It's not about degradation; it's about trust, the loss of control and technically it's the Sub that has *ALL* the power in the scene. Not to mention that pain can heighten the sensations of pleasure. I've done it, so I get it. I was paid well for it. I still have the shoes and a single black PVC, lace back, secretary skirt. Being a good Dom is a practiced discipline that requires a great deal of study to achieve. You can't just pick up a cat o' nine or crop and have at it without causing serious damage and that's not what it's about. 98% percent of the BDSM community believes in safe, sane, and consensual scenes. Personally, I leaned more towards the Dom side and I don't think that gender makes it bad for the gander and good for the goose. It's a relationship of pure give and take. Gender is a personal preference of the parties involved. A male Dom and a female Sub is no worse than a female Dom and a male Sub. The point is that both parties are there because they *want* to be and they can gain an uncommon satisfaction out of the affair. I've had both male and female Subs. As long as I got paid, I didn't care about the gender/scene. Plus, the outfits are cool.

There are sick fucks, but they are comdemned by the community. They're like, 2%.
cloverbee
anonymousfeminist, thanks for your input. I agree with you that people engage in those behaviors because they want to. what I am specifically referring to (I cannot speak for the others) are the people who watch these acts and take a different message home. It's one thing to engage in it and therefore I assume those who do understand it as you do. It is altogether another issue to be an ignorant bystander. Messages get mixed and in the end you have someone who was not engaging in the act and may think that the person who is DOM has all of the control and then they make assumptions from there and so forth. I do get your point that it can be a misunderstood art and I respect where you are coming from. I think that my concern is with the general public's ignorance about it. maybe that is what you were saying also. sorry.
knorl05
clover: exactly. thank you for pointing that out. wink.gif

anonymous: i appreciate your unique perspective. i can see how there is a very deep dynamic in the BDSM scene that centers around trust and vulnerability... not necessarily a struggle of power, but a giving up of power and being open to another human being on a very extreme level. however, dont you think it's entirely possible that many of the people engaging in these activities are in a sense abusing and punishing themselves and others? i mean you can look at it from a standpoint that others "dont get it" because they havent done it... but perhaps many people simply dont need it. i see BDSM as a deep-rooted psychological longing to obtain intimacy and more substantial connections with others that they feel they lack in their "real" lives. i could be wrong, maybe i dont get it. but to me i just find it hard to believe that people choosing to put themselves in these types positions dont have some sort of emotional burden they are carrying around. perhaps i'm looking too deeply into it.

seems we've strayed off topic to some degree. i just hope missjuliet, that you make the best decision for yourself based on what you truly want and what you feel is right for your situation.
pixiedust
I think the big difference is in watching Vs. participating in it. People watching are getting off on the sight of someone being punished sexually. They are not engaging in an intimate, trusting act with someone else. They begin to enjoy the perceived degradation and humiliation. And they become numb to it. They start thinking it's ok. And they bring it home to thier significant others who do not understand and have not consented to be involved in it. In a way it almost becomes a rape of power.

I forced to participate in something one time...and it was the worst thing that ever happened to me and it totally changed the dynamic of sex with my ex forever. And became increasingly controling after that.

If people want to be porn stars, strippers, prostitues, doms or subs, that is their right, and I would never tell them they can't be that. But I do not choose to be one and I do not want to be treated like one! They know when they enter this industry what kind of social obstacles and disapproval they are going to meet with. And they do it anyway, so one would assume that they have accepted it. But someone doesn't choose to have a mate with a sexual addiction. So my sympathies are with the unintentionally hurt, and I don't really care who's toes that steps on.
greenbean
"Nobody rents a porno by themselves to experience a deep and profound connection to another human being."
Sorry to de-rail but that just reminded me of that scene in Tromeo and Juliet where Tromeo is mastrbating to 'bride porn', and blurting out "I love you!" when he cums, because hes such a romantic. heh, classic.

On a darker note, I'm fine with male dom porn if it consists of simply tying a girl up and spanking her,...but a friend from work said he came across a German male dom porn where the dude was pissing in a girls mouth and she started crying. He said he wasnt sure if it was real or acting but either way it was profoundly disturbing.
I certainly would have a problem if my SO was into that stuff.
knorl05
pixie, i think those are great points you've made regarding the desensitization to extreme porn, and the subsequent interpretation and imposition of that lifestyle. you're right, i think it is dangerous when it's put into the "wrong" hands.. it can be used as a weapon against [women]. i'm sorry you were on the receiving end of sexual abuse, my heart goes out to you. i dont know how it affected your self esteem .. but i would hope you know that is was just HIM. i hope you were able to isolate the situation and separate yourself from the experience. it's an awful thing for any woman to go through, one that i think most women fear could happen to them. you seem like a very intelligent well adjusted woman, i would imagine the experience only made you stronger and more aware.

you are right that the people who choose the sex industry know what they're getting themselves into. really it saddens me. that's why i think the best approach is to educate women before they get to that point. it's not fun and it's not glamorous. it turns women into puppets and men into slobbering fools.
pixiedust
I'm well adjusted now. It took two really great men to get me to this place though. The first one laid the ground work and taught me to trust the opposit sex again, and being older...taught me a lot of things I didn't know. He was very anti porn and anti masterbation because he was Catholic. But he believed that if your partner is satisfying you, you shouldn't need porn or self love. I don't know that I would go to quite that extream...but his extream views helped balance me back from the other end of the spectrum....and then Mr. Pixie came along and helped take my new found self esteem out of the bedroom and into real life.

I think one of the saddest things about people in the sex industry is that they take something so fun, relaxing, and intimate...and they make it their JOB. You have to do it no matter how you feel, even if you aren't totally in the mood, even if you aren't attracted to the guy. And don't tell me that doesn't spill over and affect thier "normal" sex life!
TONIN
QUOTE(pixiedust @ Jul 21 2006, 08:47 PM) *

I'm well adjusted now. It took two really great men to get me to this place though. The first one laid the ground work and taught me to trust the opposit sex again, and being older...taught me a lot of things I didn't know. He was very anti porn and anti masterbation because he was Catholic. But he believed that if your partner is satisfying you, you shouldn't need porn or self love. I don't know that I would go to quite that extream...but his extream views helped balance me back from the other end of the spectrum....and then Mr. Pixie came along and helped take my new found self esteem out of the bedroom and into real life.

I think one of the saddest things about people in the sex industry is that they take something so fun, relaxing, and intimate...and they make it their JOB. You have to do it no matter how you feel, even if you aren't totally in the mood, even if you aren't attracted to the guy. And don't tell me that doesn't spill over and affect thier "normal" sex life!



I agree. my b/f's friend was dateing a girl that did porn (im extreamly against it) and he said that most of the time he reallly couldnt get into sex with her he kept thinking about her and the 100+ guys shes screwed. anyway he got rid of her, thankfully, he was way too good for her.

my b/f and i had a lot of problems, well i did when we first started living together. i found that he was looking at porn eventhough he told me he wasnt, anyway this whole thing went on and off for about 2 years and finally the past 6 months or so hes been very good, i explained that its like hes cheating on me. its one thing if i were ok with it but im not. anyway.. i put my foot down and told him no matter how deeply in love i am with him i dont trust him verymuch and if he does it agian im packing his bags! there isnt any reason for us to NOT be able to express our feelings about porn bad or good to our partner and have them understand. he did it cus it was a bad habbit ever since like 13 so.... its understandable everyone picks thier noses in public when they are a kid but at some point when you are an adult its time to drop those bad habbits. all is well now because we talked, understood, and have ALOT more sex now cus i can trust him more and he saves if for me rather than those who dont deserve his attention wink.gif
girlbomb
Hey, I hope people know that I am the last person to defend porn, especially the really gross shit that's so upsettingly prevalent, but I do want to stand up for people's right to participate in it and use it, if they choose to do so freely in a way that doesn't hurt others. Same for BSDM. I used to think that all people into sexual power play were emotionally damaged; I also thought that all religious people were stupid. But they don't seem to be any more or less stupid or damaged than the rest of the people I know.

This is coming from someone who had to end a relationship over an addiction to really sadistic porn, by the way. What he liked to watch (instead of have sex) was so yucky to me that I didn't even want to look at him any more, much less fuck him. Whereas I've had other relationships where I thought "oh, this guy's porn is so corny and predictable," but I've been able to live with it, because it didn't offend my values quite so much, and our sex life (and romantic life) were still strong. However, it was a don't-ask-don't-tell policy -- you don't let me see those links in the browser history, and I won't tell you what I was thinking about doing with the guy from the IT department.
zahia1996
Haha girlbomb--- you bring up a good point. I used to wonder if it was ok for me to tell my husband that I was not ok with his porn habit, because I, like most people out there, would sometimes fantasize about other people. But, I think that both can be normal and healthy...its just a matter of how far you take it. If your fantasies consume you to the point that it affects your relationship with your SO, that is just as damaging as using porn to that degree. It doesn't matter if its in your head, or right in front of you on a screen. If the images you use to maintain a healthy sexual attitude in YOURSELF begin to have a negative effect on the person you care about, it may be time to re-examine things. And really, that goes for any habit, whether its sexual or not. I know plenty of women who have lost their S.O to video games and ESPN. If you think its degrading and saddening to lose your guy to a porn site, well shit, its just as bad to lose him to a fantasy world of elves and magicians. It never feels good to be passed up for a world that doesn't exist. Whether its a world of big boobs, or little guys casting spells. Bottom line, respect your mate, and respect yourself enough to ask the same in return.
girlwithasecret
TONIN and Pixiedust and whoever else who generalizes-
Your assumtions about porn and those who work/worked in the sex industry are unfair! Not to mention stereotyping women in a very broad spectrum billion dollar industry. There are intelligent, educated, safe and sexually healthy women who chose to work in the sex industry for a multitude of reasons. Sometimes they are in the same film as the desperate chick and forced to work chick. A hardcore BDSM guy, your neighborhood stripper and the cute guy in his 30's buying Hustler all like "adult entertainment"... but they aren't that 2-5% who turn it into an obsession or addiction and make those around them miserable.

Do we blame bartenders and staff at liquor stores for people's alcoholism? What about the pharmacists at drugstores, are they responsible for people's painkiller addictions? I know that sounded harsh but really?! Porn, like a driver's license, the ability to purchase booze, have a credit card (etc etc) are intended to be used by adults...That is a person who can use logic and exacute caution and restraint in serious situations... People with an addiction (to whatever it may be, shopaholic? porn monster?) have a problem, one that will absolutely affect a relationship. In some cases couples work through the problem and in other cases it's a deal breaker.

Reading this thread makes my heart go out to any woman who loses her self esteem and feels a loss of control in any way(relationship or physically) no one should feel that way. People are in a relationship because they love one another seeing them in a different light and finding out their SO's "darker secret" can cause damage beyond repair.
knorl05
pixiedust: so glad to hear you're doing better, and that you seem to embrace the lessons being presented to you. that's great. i'm also happy to hear you've found a good man who compliments you and empowers you in the relationship. you're very fortunate. smile.gif best to you and your continued success in every aspect of your life.

*i'd really like to clarify my distaste to porn. my opinion is such that porn is depressing. the industry is ugly and it is a gateway to a lot of really negative choices in life. from what i have seen, it sucks the realness out of people. it turns them into something they are not, or at least it changes them, and more often than not, for the worse. the industry is superficial. it is fake. the competition in this industry is easy, as though all you've got to do to be successful is conform to their idea of beauty. my heart goes out to the women who put themselves in these situations because i have seen that they start in the industry before they even really know who they are as a person. and once they're in, many times they become just another member of that lifestyle. they are an extension of everything that goes along with the industry whether or not they engage in it to any extreme degree. but we all make our choices in life, whatever. it does not make them any less than anyone else because of the choices they have made. i just see that the potential is higher that they will end up with the same tragic story... either emotionally numb or dead (literally or figuratively).
jsmith
This may sound totally ignorant, and may derail the thread (although discussion here reminded me of this little *problem*), but I've got to put it out there (want to know what y'all think).
Okay: prostitution is illegal, yes? Prostitution is accepting money to have sex. Porn actors/actresses are being paid to have sex. Do y'all see where I'm going? Why is it legal?
Having put that wierd question out there, I'd like to say that I think mainstream pornography is deplorable, and I make no apologies for my views, nor should anyone else. I can't rightly say why I feel this way, I just always have. I remember being an itty bitty little girl, and seeing ads for playboy/900 numbers/etc. on television after 10pm, and getting so piiiiissed because women were being "picked on" (I was a child, and that was the only way I could describe how it looked to me). There is a world of difference between breaking free from sexual repression and empowering oneself, and converting oneself into a distorted image of a person to adhere to some sick standard (and make money off of it).
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