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swedishchick
I'm having a I'm-missing-out-on-so-much-sex-crisis. Mostly I regret not having more sex before I met this guy, but I guess I was just too shy and insecure back then. But here are just so many things I never did and now it's too late...

We've been together for six years and recently got married. The thing is that it's all great. We're great, the sex is great, I love him soooo much. Which makes me feel even more guilty for wanting other people. I never used to have a problem with this and he seems to be fine with me being the only one for the rest of his life. *sigh*

Any thoughts on this?
nickclick
hi swedish, i have the same anxiety every now and then. there were years in between my serious relationships that i coulda shoulda but didn't, for the same reasons as you. but there's something to be said about quality, not quantity. right now, i think i'm getting everything i need from one place! and just like everything in your relationship, your sex life will build and grow and change.

i dunno. as long as that's the problem and nothing else about your relationship....

well, i'm moving in with mr.nick in july. am i going to be able to handle the messiness and snoring and and well, messiness is the biggest issue really. i can do this, right?
go_kayte
((((swedishchick)))))) (((((sassygirl)))))))) ((((((((((laurenann)))))))))))


I'm kind of sort of having an "am I a lesbian?" crisis. It's driving me insane, but mostly it's driving my boyfriend insane. I feel like this all should have been sorted out when I was in my teens. But I just am not really that interested in dick anymore. I feel like a horrible person.
grenadine
*delurking*

swedish,
my best friend (a guy) is married to a woman who has slept with no one but him (and this is a very strong, independent, free-thinking woman whose very alpha in terms of career, etc., not religious or inhibited, etc.). she once drunkenly confessed this to me and it made all his allusions to the idea that "maybe she's not ready" so much more clear...but she also eventually realised what i (who got around plenty before i got married) realised: it doesn't matter. maybe you want more or different sex right now, or maybe what your mind is really trying to tell you is that you want freedom, but i don't really believe that you should "sow your wild oats" or whatever; in fact, my friend's wife was like "and then i realised that it wouldn't really make any difference..." at the same time as i was like "and then i realised that all those oats didn't really dramatically enrich my life..."
long story short, maybe this is about what you need now, not a "what if" situation. good luck getting it!

nick, yes! you can do it. you (plural) can do it. but i hope he's trying to mitigate the messiness.
swedishchick
(((((Nickclick))))) Living together is great! In some ways it's what I like best about being in a LTR, all the everyday stuff. Me and the hubby are equally messy, so...

((((go-kayte)))) Thats sounds hard, to say the least. I guess you shpuld try and figure out your feelings for the bf first. Whether you should stay in the relationship or not. And if you don't have feelings for him anymore, THEN maybe you can start figuring out your sexuality. Does that make any sense?

((((grenadine)))) Don't worry, I'm not about to do anything stupid. wink.gif But it really helps what you say about it not being worth it. I guess the grass is always greener etc... And I really hated being single, in many ways. And yeah, this guy... he's really the love of my life.

Also, I'm kinda unhappy with my life at the moment; job etc. And I guess that reflects on my sexual desires, the fact that I would like some change in my life in general.
laurenann
am i still allowed here in the committed thread, even though my boyfriend of almost five years who i was convinced i was going to marry soon dumped me out of nowhere last friday because he needs to "take some time" to be on his "own"? how much longer before i have to post is moving on or frustrated singles?

about living with a messy significant other - i had accepted and was totally ready to live a life of cleaning up more than my fair share. other things would even it out. i cared about messiness and he just really did not.

on that note, i stopped by our (well, his, i guess) apartment today to start packing my stuff up. the place was gross. i don't think he has scooped the litter box since i left on friday, and the place smelled like cat poop. there were beer bottles and empty food containers (did he have a party or something??) all over the place and it looked like he dumped the closet all over the bedroom. it was really hard for me not to clean up.



nickclick
laurenann, post where you're comfortable. in moving on, you may see similar situations as yours, or even worse, that puts shit in perspective.

thanks for the advice all, about moving in together. if messiness is the biggest prob, than i'm in good shape. i know i'm overly anal about tidiness, so i'll accept most of the cleaning responsibility. as long as he doesn't exasperate, you know? this may be what you're saying, grenadine. i'll have to look up "mitigate" ha ha.
gumby_cc
Laurenann, I am SO sorry to hear that. It sounds like you were totally blindsided. I hope the cat is ok, too. Sounds like she would be better off with you.
sassygrrl
I'm wondering that myself. Although Mcgeek and I really don't live together, I do spend every weekend with him. He's also anal. It also worries me. But we haven't decided to take that step that yet. I think it will happen next spring. Then again, there's a huge part of me that loves living on my own.

Laurenann, you're welcome here or at either thread. ((laurenann))
opheliathemuse
Hello Committeds. I have a very hard time being in a committed relationship, and I have avoided posting here because of that I think. However, I should probably somehow accept the fact that I am here, because I am. I hope this is making sense. I get scared, you know?

I'm very sorry to hear about your breakup, laurenann. I know how that can feel.

JennyTinDC
Hey, All.

I'm new (or really old... used to post in the late 90s!... anyone around from that era? I used to be "JenXX.")
Sorry for the double-post, but I don't think many are posting to the "childless" thread and this is really more of a committed relationship issue.

I am in the predicament that I have been in a 2+ year relationship with a man I love dearly who is 27. (I am 38.) I do believe he will want children, but he doesn't feel prepared to have them now.

As for me, I feel like my days are numbered. Ironically, he being so much younger, he is terrified of getting me pregnant. So much so that I am on the pill and even then on the rare occassion that he feels comfortable coming inside me, he frets until I get my next period.

We probably will get married at some point, but that also needs to happen before anything else (esp. for him as he is very traditional).

Not only am I afraid that I will never have the chance to try to have kids, but I am afraid that we will eventually break up, and he will have kids without me. I feel like I'm the one who has the most to lose, but I don't want to lose him.

For SATC fans, this is the "why give up a man for a baby you hardly know" issue. (Season #6)

Has anyone else been in this position?

Jenny
tyger
heh, ophelia, i think we share the reason we don't post in here. i'm bad at being in a commited relationship, mostly because they kind of scare me.

i keep having these times where i just feel so distant from the boything. it's a forced distance, though, i like i want to push him away. they only happen every once in a while, and only for an hour or so at a time, but they scare me, and i really don't know what's causing them. i just want to get it figured out and make them stop
hellotampon
QUOTE(swedishchick @ Jun 6 2007, 02:08 AM) *
I'm having a I'm-missing-out-on-so-much-sex-crisis. Mostly I regret not having more sex before I met this guy, but I guess I was just too shy and insecure back then. But here are just so many things I never did and now it's too late...

We've been together for six years and recently got married. The thing is that it's all great. We're great, the sex is great, I love him soooo much. Which makes me feel even more guilty for wanting other people. I never used to have a problem with this and he seems to be fine with me being the only one for the rest of his life. *sigh*

Any thoughts on this?


I can relate to this. I've been with my boyfriend for 3 years and we're not married or anything but I feel the same way. Like a compulsion to go out and sleep around, and a feeling that I should be doing it right now, and I just wish i had gotten it out of the way before my relationship because he is perfect, I love him, and I don't want to break up.
sassygrrl
Hellotampon, I do that too. I mean, I'm only been with my boy for about 9-10 months, but I go in and out of stages where I want to fuck around. Right now, I'm in one where I want to fuck around. Which is weird. We just got back from a great vacation. I thought it would have brought us closer. Yet, I still find myself flirting with other men in front of him. Is this wrong?

Yet, we're both so giving each other such mixed messages right now. I'm glad we don't live together. I need to be on my own for a while. I need my space. I don't think he understands that.
missjoy
I'm in an odd place right now. Joyboy and I have been together for just over five years and are recently married. My weight has always gone up and down and I've never been small. Well right now it's at the highest it's ever been. I hate it, but even worse than that I feel like I need to do something about it for the boy. He has never said anything about my weight, but has sometimes commented on other people's (only in very extreme circumstances). I feel like I'm letting him down that I weight 50 lbs more than when we met because I want him to still want me. We are still gettin it on and everything - but I've never been in a situation where I feel like my weight affects more than only myself.

It's also odd because he has never said anything about it, but I feel so insecure, but I don't want to say anything because I don't want him to be, like, "you know, you're right, I didn't notice before but you are fat". Which would never happen, but there you go.

End my babbling now.
grenadine
hi jenny, i remember you from way back when...i was luce then. but i've always been an infrequent poster, so you may not remember me.

sorry about the boy woes. i had a somewhat similar situation in that i'm 7 years older than the mr., and he was quite young when we were confronted with an unplanned pregnancy and had to decide what to do with it, but he was actually the one that argued more strenuously FOR having the baby. (he was all for the baby but scared shitless about the relationship -- he actually suggested that we break up in order to "unmuddle" the coparenting waters, and for no other reason; i was iffy about the prospect of raising a family but knew that, if i did, i would want to be in a committed relationship, so a lot of negotiation took place). now that we've been married a couple of years and are expecting a second child, i can say that the one thing i've learned is that you can't push a learning curve on someone, but you HAVE TO make it clear what you want. it sounds like the first thing to decide is "do i want to marry this guy? and if so, when?" then propose, or bring it up, or whatever you feel comfortable with...making it a positive step you're taking (i.e. "i love you, i want to start a family, let's do it!" and not a negative step where you apologise or try to rationalise because, really, age is a small part of the equation. you're not that old -- many people aren't ready at 38! -- and he's not that young -- 27 isn't exactly wet behind the ears).
the part of your post that sets off my alarm bells is the part where you say you're worried you'll break up, as though you want it to "pay off" with commitment/child or else it'll be a letdown...if that's the case, think seriously about how long is too long to wait.

joy, it sounds like your man has the rare wisdom to know that your weight is your business and that you already feel bad about it. it also sounds like he's plenty attracted to you regardless. if i were you i'd start loving myself, and him, a lot more for that and work on knowing that your weight is an issue that bothers YOU and that taking better care of yourself is about your relationship with you, not your relationship with him. i'm so glad you don't have to deal with a (well-meaning but) awkward weight-policing type boyfriend!
missjoy
Good advice Grenadine. It's the kind of advice that I know, it's just hard to keep it in mind sometimes. I think he is also trying to be super supportive, he's in generally good shape but we are eating a lot healthier and going for walks and that kind of thing without making it explicit why, which is good for both of us.

JoyBoy and I have this odd thing going on about children. Both of us are so ambivilant. They say it's one of those things you should talk about before you get married, and we did, in a "I could go either way", "yup, same here" kind of way. It's almost like it is my decision and he is fine with that. Right now we aren't at a place where it would make sense financially, but even if we were, I think it would be my choice.
JennyTinDC
Hi, Grenadine.

Thanks for the feedback and for not letting my question die. My BF is completely aware that I want to be married and have the chance to have a family, and he feels he is not ready although he is torn because I don't think he wants to lose me (and I don't want to lose him.) For now, I've decided to back off since we are still in love and because I'm putting a lot of pressure on not only him/us, but more importantly ME! And I want to just enjoy life. I just moved across the country from Utah (where everybody is married by 22... not good for me psychologically) to Washington, DC. Am currently job-searching, trying to make friends, etc. so I have enough pressure without putting excess strain on our relationship. My boyfriend and I were LD for almost two years before I moved out here. (He's new to town, too, but just from ATL.)

Anyway, thanks for responding.
JennyTinDC

swedishchick
((((Sassygirl)))) and ((((hellotampon))))

Some days I'm thinking: Why would I want to have sex with someone else when what I have with him is sooo good in every way?

And then other days I'm flirting, fantasizing, making lists in my head of everyone I'd want to fuck.

But I'm not freaking out som much about it any more. At least I'm trying not to.
Thanks for leting me know I'm not the only one with these thoughts. It helps.
LoveMyPugs
I know I'm not a regular in this thread but PLEASE HELP!!!! Long-term relationship’ers I need some advice! Just please tell me if I’m selfish or silly. Be honest with me. Mr. Pug drives 40 minutes to and from work everyday. He also works eight to nine hours in between. He bowls twice a week. He also cuts the grass once a week. Other then that he doesn’t help around the house unless I fight with him about it. I on the other hand, don’t work. I’m a student. He’s supporting me while I finish my degree. Now, being in school, I do spend a significantly more amount of time at home sitting on my butt. I’m expected to wash, dry and put away the dishes, mop the kitchen floor, take out the trash, dust the whole house (he likes to vacuum) keep everything neat, do all the laundry, take care of the dogs, cook when I’m not in class, still maintain good grades, be at his call when he wants sex and so on and so forth. He thinks that because he makes all the money and works all day that he shouldn’t have to do anything else. Do you all think this is fair? I’m trying to see his side of it. He works in the heat or cold all day come rain or shine and he does support me financially. However, when I did work part time or full time, had full time classes or part time classes he still didn’t do anything extra around the house. Now I’ve never made as much as him and probably never will. So should I just resign myself to taking over the household chores? Should I just admit that he’s right that he supports me more then I support him (financially) and just stop arguing about it? He does take care of the house, cars and yard. We've been together for almost 11 years and this is the ONLY thing that we continually fight about. It drives me crazy. I feel like if I spent all day cleaning and all night in class, if I got up with him and got home five hours later then him that he’d still think he did more then me and then wonder why I'm tired and not in the mood.

It’s always a contest of who did more during the day. He’ll walk in the house and say, “So what did you do today?”

I’ll say, “I’m mopped the kitchen floor, folded laundry and did the dishes and went to class. What did you do today?”

Then he’ll say something like, “Well I worked in the heat all day, paid the bills and took the trash out.”

Sometimes it just feels like he’s trying to put me in my place as a woman. Nothing infuriates me more. His mommy did EVERYTHING for him until he was 24 years old. He doesn’t wash dishes, he doesn’t do laundry, and he doesn’t clean bathrooms BLAH, BLAH, BLAH! He doesn’t LIKE doing those things. Well, I don’t like doing them either but someone’s got to. So…I guess it’s just going to have to be me because fighting about it is getting me nowhere fast.

Any suggestions?
Arcadia
I'm not a regular in this thread either, Pugs, more like a reader, but I understand what you mean.

I definitely see where you feel like you are being "put in your place". I haven't been dating the Mister for very long (only about a year and a half) and I sometimes feel the same way. He and I both work full time but he pays the rent every month because I pay as much in student loan bills as he does in rent and he does hold this over my head. Whenever we get in a fight he throws it in my face that I would still be stuck living with my evil stepmother if he wasn't paying for where we live. I feel like he believes that because he pays the bills I should clean the apartment (which I do constantly, even picking up the clothes he leaves lying on the LIVING ROOM floor), cook every meal (I do that too), and do the laundry every weekend (I am actually going to be on my way to the bank to get laundry money in a few moments). He will do the dishes, take out the trash, and clean the cat litter, but that is because I refuse to.

I think the only thing you can do is try to talk to him about it, reasonably. I know how hard it is to not yell at someone, as I am confrontational by nature and very easy to anger. I don't know you personally so I don't know if that's how you are, but I know that when I feel taken advantage of, I yell. unsure.gif When I think about how all of a sudden Mister and I got this apartment and I have somehow been turned into some domesticated woman (somewhat against my will) it does make me stop and think. I find it funny that I read your post here because I was actually going to have a talk with him about being a little more helpful and it's strangely comforting to see I'm not the only woman out there with this issue.

I would definitely try to talk to him. Tell him that you know that he pays the bills while you are at school and you are extremely grateful, but at the same time you feel taken advantage of. I can tell myself from your posts here that you are a strong woman yourself and if it is really bothering you, you should talk to him about it. I know relationships are about being equal and all that, but I don't feel like just because he brings home the bacon you have to cook it, you know? It might also have something to do with how he was raised. You imply that he was a bit of a Momma's Boy (my best friend has the problem with her boyfriend) so maybe that is why he believes that the woman should cook/clean/look after the children (even if the children are dogs or cats! laugh.gif). Just let Mr. Pug know that while you appreciate what he does for you, you would also appreciate a little help around the house. Don't ask him to do anything big because that probably won't fly, but maybe request that he do the more "manly" chores, like taking out the trash or something along those lines. Mr. Arc does do those ones. I know I'm not weak but I don't like having anything to do with trash or cleaning kitty litter, so I have him do that. Now if only he would pick up his clothes from the living room!

I hope that things work out for you. I definitely know how much of a pain in the arse it is to have to clean up after a man. I appreciate that he pays the rent but a little help wouldn't be taken amiss.

And wow, I'm long-winded today! Don't know how much of a help I have been, but I hope maybe a little!
nickclick
your posts have perfect timing for me. just this weekend i moved into my bf's house, until we find a new place in a few months. i'm worried because i'm a neat-freak and he's a slob. i'm hoping we can meet somewhere in the middle without me yelling at him 24/7 or without me following him with a vacuum cleaner. in the past with an ex and roommates, i usually just shooshed and cleaned, just because it's easier than fighting (in a messy house). but yes, i quickly felt like a doormat or the mommy. things were left around or left to do because they knew mommy would soon clean it up or do it.

pugs, i agree with arc that you just have to talk to him about it. be honest about how you feel you are being treated. just because you don't do physical labor doesn't mean you don't work hard or have more energy to spare. ask him what he thinks will happen when you finish school and also work full-time? will he pull his weight then around the house, and how? what would he do if he lived alone? just make sure he doesn't get too used to not doing chores, something he's already quite used to, thanks to mommy.

i've been stressing a bit about us moving in together because of the messiness issue. but then i thought, if that's my biggest worry about our future together, shit's not so bad.
LoveMyPugs
Thanks for your responses. He and I have “talked” about this for the past six years. Talking just doesn’t work when it comes to this. He just doesn’t clean. He doesn’t and won’t do it without being bitched at for hours on end. He won’t even take out the trash regularly, even though that is one of the more manly jobs of the house. When it comes to the trash he says it just slips his mind and he forgets. When I question what will happen when I start working full time he says he’ll help more but even when I did work full-time he didn’t help. When he was at his moms when we were dating his room was disgusting. We have two pugs and the dog hair is outrageous sometimes and he has no problem living, eating and sleeping with dog hair everywhere. I’ve tried letting things build up and he still won’t budge. He is very stubborn when it comes to this. I feel helpless. Today I cleaned the whole down stairs. Living room, dinning room and kitchen and I can guaranty you he won’t notice or he’ll be like, “The place looks nice.” Then he’ll ramble on about how long, hard and hot his day was today. Like I wasn’t sweating running up and down the stairs putting shit away and scrubbing stains out of the carpet and doing load after load of laundry. The worst part is when I get frustrated and I let things build up thinking he’ll eventually help, he doesn’t and I have to then do a back load of work. I love, love, love him so much but he frustrates the crap out of me when it comes to cleaning. *growl* My day of hard work at home and school never compares to his. Sometimes he just makes me feel like I don’t do anything and I’m just lazy. It’s so frustrating. Now I’m pissed and angry again.
Arcadia
Aw, Pugs, that does sound frustrating.
I personally have never understood why people don't think that going to school all day is hard work. I did a history degree and every day it drained the life right out of me!

I know this might sound stupid, but what if you went to extreme measures and just didn't do it yourself? Like, didn't clean, didn't cook, anything, until he realised something was amiss and did something about it, or asked you about it. Maybe then he would get the point. That might sound too childish, but it was the first thing that came to mind. Or, maybe if you asked him on his day off to do all the cleaning you would do in a regular day to see how hard you work he might appreciate it more. I know that it's hard not to nag and bitch as I do it a lot myself (in which case the Mister will reply "OKAY, MOM!" which I *REALLY* hate, or just walk away from me because he hates how I get so angry). I just don't know what other options you would have if talking to him is redundant. If he really doesn't want to do it, he won't do it. Men are far too stubborn, sometimes. I don't know if anything would make him do it.

It seems like you love Mr. Pugs a lot so I wouldn't think that him not cleaning up would be a deal-breaker for the relationship, but it might get worse when you start working full time when neither of you have the time to clean up. I just hope that he will see that you work just as hard as he does to keep him happy because he seems to think that he works hard to keep you happy (which I'm sure he actually does) and that you should't be complaining. I think my Mister feel the same, but when you are constantly doing all the work it can get frustrating.

Oh and nickclick, I understand about the "ohmigod-I'm-moving-in-with-a-boy!" worries. When Mr. Arc first moved in with me we were living with my mother and he moved into my room. Keep in mind I had never, ever had to share my room (having grown up as an only child with my step-siblings living in another province) so when he moved in I was almost in tears seeing him move my stuff around and put his things in places where mine once had been. It was a very conflicting feeling because I wanted him there but he was taking my precious space! I'm glad he moved in, of course, and it's better now that we have our own place, but man was it hard at first. I'm sure everything will be fine; just try and tell him about how you don't want to be the only one cleaning all the time! laugh.gif
zoya
**de-lurks**

Pugs, that would drive me nuts..

.. I have not had to deal with that with a partner, but I have had to deal with it with a roommate who was a very good friend, and it very nearly cost us our friendship because I just could not deal with the mess and someone I lived with not giving two shits.

I know it's not exactly the same, but...

.. anyway - what if you started paying someone to come and do cleaning once a week? or even once every two weeks? You'd still have to do some cleaning, but the big stuff could be done by someone else. In my case, my roommate was willing to pay for this, rather than clean herself - but even if you had to pay for some of it - hell, even once a month, it could be a great price to pay for your sanity. And it's really not that expensive to have cleaning done. I just moved out of my old apartment, and paid for a cleaning service to give the whole place a huge cleaning. It cost $60. Totally worth it so that I didn't have to fuck with it. And they did EVERYTHING - cleaned in and out of the appliances, did all the windows and floors, bathroom... everything, even cleaned the blinds!

And maybe once a week you could take your laundry to a place that charges by the pound to do it.

the mister might bitch about the cost, or the fact that your little bit of money is going towards doing it (if you pay for it yourself) and not towards bills or something, but if he helped, then that money might not have to be spent. And at the very least, your personal sanity would be helped out considerably.

anyhoo, just a thought...

**re-lurks and waits for the day she gets a committed relationship going... smile.gif **
sybarite
I wasn't going to post about this because thinking about it in relation to my own situation makes me crazy, but here goes...

In a nutshell, I clean our place and the mister does very little if any housework. We have fought over this, I have tried not to notice, I have tried 'making' him do more, via what very very quickly becomes nagging... and finally I have accepted that I will probably be doing most of the cleaning.

There are two reasons for this; the first is his general lack of contribution, the second is that when he does do something he doesn't do it well, so, for me, it is easier to do it all myself.

I hate even typing these words, because this is unjust and unfair on two levels. There's the inbalance in our relationship, and there is the larger fact that this is a gendered issue. I know a lot of men who are fanatical about a clean house, but I have also heard and read way too many accounts of male/female relationships where the woman does most of the cleaning, or where she isn't satisfied with the standard of cleaning her male partner does.

I don't have a bigger solution to the underlying gender imbalance and those tired-ass assumptions that cleaning is women's work. They exist and (as can be seen here) are clearly flourishing. Furthermore this exact issue has been raised in these threads again and again. I don't have an answer to the bigger social tendency but I wish I did.

What I do for the sake of my sanity is I've acknowledged that I will do the lion's share of cleaning. It's an established pattern now and I expect it will continue when we move house this summer. With that acknowledgement comes a regularisation of the situation: I do most of the cleaning, which = actual regular labour, therefore this is reflected in the amount of rent and bills I pay.

As someone who has always paid her equal share of rent + bills it took a little getting used to but I feel it's the only way to go. I cannot stand the person I become when I'm repeatedly asking him to clean and I cannot stand being taken advantage of because a clean house matters more to me than to him.

My 2 cents. It's taken me over 2 years to figure this out. I hope the above helps to make sense of what's happening; if you've tried everything else I don't know what else to say, except talk to him about the work you're doing and put it honestly on the table. Good luck...
LoveMyPugs
sybarite - your post was really lovely actually. I have such personal issues deep inside with the way men think cleaning is "women's work" and, like you said, I either have to nag him or when he does clean he does a shitty job, just makes me feel like a bad woman for giving up and doing it all myself. If I have a son I don't want him to turn out like Mr. Pug and his future lady have the same problems I have. My future child is going to understand that cleaning is man and women work. I pray on it all the time for God to just give me the strength to not get so pissed about it and just put my mind to it and knock out the housework as quickly as possible so that I don't think on it too much. I'm still pissed at him about the fight we had the other day. He's not apologized yet although I think he believes he has in his own way. I haven't been so hurt like this is a while. That my hard work in school just doesn't compare to his hard work on cars. He always jokes that someday I'll make more money then him because my career pays more and that he'd like to be a stay-at-home dad. I told him the other day that I'll never allow this because if I can't get him to do a freaking thing now how in the world can I know that he'll do anything if he's sitting at home on his ass with a nintendo wii or a playstation 2 in front of his face. I'd still be doing all the work. I just know it.
missjoy
I thought I would weigh in on this. After living together for just over two years and being married for just over one, Joy Boy and I have our differences. JoyBoy works a job where he is at work for two weeks (and not even coming home at all - he's in a different city) and then home for two weeks, but then for the two weeks he is away he works enough hours to cover the whole four (12 hours a day for the whole 14 days). So is it fair for me to expect him to do all the housework for the two weeks he is home because he "isn't working"? I guess not- and it wouldn't really work anyway since he wouldn't do it.

I used to get really pissy about him being messy - then I realized I was also messy, but it was *his* mess that bothered me. Now that we have moved to a house it has evened out a bit since he does *all* of the outdoor stuff (lawn, gardening, fence building). We also each do our own laundry and he does sometimes do stuff inside (he cleaned the whole house last time cause his mom was visiting. I guess we are a bit chaotic because nothing is planned - and sometimes I do feel bitter if he has been at home all day and the dishes aren't done - but I guess I've mellowed out. It also sounds like perhaps JoyBoy does a bit more than others.

I second the idea of paying for a cleaning person - I know when i was growing up and my parent's were both working full time we had someone come once every two weeks to do a big clean - of course we had to tidy for her coming (she vacuumed, mopped and polished) so it also ensured that we cleaned our rooms on a realtively frequent basis.
stargazer
i'm not currently in a committed relationship, but i was thinking about how things were in my last committed relationship which was with a woman. i was trying to figure out if the dynamics were the same/different than the ones being discussed here.

my ex was actually a bigger cleaner than i was. she would help out. i was actually the lazy one at times about cleaning. my biggest issue was money. she was not very good about being responsible about money. and when she complained about a high cellphone bill that was the result of her high minutes usage...she tried to blame our poor contract. ok. then, i gave her the responsibility to find a new service and informed her of the result financially of cancelling a service before the end of our contract and starting a new one. basically, we stuck with the old one. she didn't want to do the work. i was going to work, school, and training. i kept up with most of the household stuff. she worked 2 jobs and shared in the house stuff. but, resentment crept in. hence, the ex factor.

now, my late friend and roommate (may he rest in peace) was HORRIBLE and lazy as a roommate. and he was a gay man! i had a perception and stereotype that he would be neat and clean. he would be as into cleaning as i was, in my head. but, no. his mother (well, his parents) did EVERYTHING for him. he was spoiled. so i did most of the cleaning and resigned to the fact that having a clean home was important to me. not him. i should've held him responsible for it. oh well.

so, i guess it doesn't matter whether or not it is a man thing or not. i lived with a woman in a relationship and a gay man, both utopia's in terms of stereotypes for straight women, and both situations sucked. so, i'm sorry busties. there is no such thing as the perfect situation.

i guess it just means asserting yourself and saying what you will and will not put up with. i hope mr. pugs is receptive to you. but, he won't change and treat you with respect until you show that love and respect for yourself first.

i had to learn the hard way.

good luck pugs!

ETA: upon review of the previous posts, i think a cleaning woman would be an excellent idea! and i would simply state, pugs, that a cleaning person is being hired because you need help with the household taking and leave it at that. i wouldn't even go into the whole "you're not doing your share" thing.
nickclick
yeah, i don't think cleanliness is so much a boy/girl thing, as a how you were raised thing. and it so happens that girls are more often raised to do household chores. i sure as hell know i was doing laundry and mowing the lawn when i was young. i hated my parents for it then but now i appreciate it and will do the same if i have kids.

mr.nick grew up doing chores, and lived on his own for most of the time before i moved in last week. but his house has always been messy or he's had slobbo roommates, so he does the minimum. i like a super neat house. so on one hand, i should do more cleaning since i'm the one with the anal retention, but he should also respect my tidiness and not leave crap everywhere. i have to admit, he's been doing a good job of the latter so far, but i'm afraid after the newness wears off, he's gonna slack. until i have to nag, or be his "mommy," which yes, arcadia, pisses me off big time.

pugs, i second (or fifth!) the cleaning lady idea. when mr.p questions the funds going out of the house for such a thing, say that you can't do it all with your one pair of hands. so you'll either need his wallet or his help.
phobia
I just wanted to add my voice to the consensus regarding cleanliness/slobbiness not neccessarily being a boy/girl thing. I'm a HUGE slob, and my boy is only marginally tidier. We just. Don't. Care. Having a clean house is nice, but honestly, I just don't notice it if it's not, and if I do notice it, I can immediately think of about a hundred different things I could be doing other than cleaning! And I know that people who enjoy a clean space will be all like "but you get such a great sense of accomplishment when it's all over!" But you know what? I honestly, truly don't. I look around and I'm tired and filthy, and I just don't ever think it's worth it.

I guess what my point is is that different people have different thresholds or concepts of "mess." So for example, my super anal best friend comes to visit and cleans (he's a guy) because he sees this huge mess, and meanwhile we're like "but we CLEANED for you!!!" Just as different people have different things they value in a partner.

I mean, I'm looking at when Pugs said "tell me if I'm [being] selfish or silly!" and that just kills me. We all have the absolute right to our own values, and if what she values is a partner who contributes to the household chores, she shouldn't have to compromise on that! I just hate it that women are made to feel like we're domineering shrews when we stand up for our rights to not be miserable in our own homes! As I said, everyone has different priorities, and nobody should be ashamed of wanting or not wanting a clean house, or a partner who goes to your church or no church at all, or a partner who likes cats or dogs or fish, you know?

I guess I kind of went on a rant there, sorry smile.gif
shinyx3
Pugs, i am with you on this and have also not learned how to deal with it. i too, do not work as i am going back to school. hubby makes the money and i am therefore supposed to be the house wife which i am resentful and quite frankly not very good at. i took this summer of of school instead of taking a summer course and will likely take next semester off as well as i am preggers and due in a month. i get extreemly frusterated though with the level of sloppyness of the mister (who grew up with a mom that did everything for him) i also have tried "talking" which ends up in an fight everytime. i feel like i am supposed to just accept that it is my lot in life as i was born a woman. then that pisses me off to no end and i want to put my foot down and not do anything at all. (i tried this and it only makes for a HUGE fight!)

i think hireing a cleaning lady would help but we are really maxed on our funds right now as we are finishing our basement so that will have to wait.
LoveMyPugs
Sorry it’s been so long since I’ve check this post. That’s kind of wrong, especially since I posted asking for advice. My internet has been down and I’ve missed bust for about four days now. Mr. Pug pretty much said that if I’m going to be going to school and not working that he wants me to take on a majority of the housework, especially now when I’m only taking two summer classes and home a lot of the time complaining that I’m bored and have nothing to do. I told him that I just resent the idea of being the woman and doing all the cleaning. He made it very clear that if he wasn’t working and had a lot of free time on his hands he’d be doing the majority of the cleaning. He said, “I know it seems unfair but it seems unfair to me that I work all day and you’ve only gone to one class and haven’t done anything the rest of the day.” I thought about it for a few days and honestly I think he’s right. I think I have issues more with the idea of being “expected” to do everything. The last three days I’ve done all the dishes, laundry and general cleaning and he has surprisingly really helped out when I haven’t expected it. The last few days have been really great and I think I’ve surprised him as well. Right now things are pretty good in the Pug House. I just hope it stays that way. The cleaning thing is really the only thing we fight about and he really is a wonderful guy. I mean, not many 27 year old guys would say, “Honey, you lost your job. Why don’t you just go back to school full time and I’ll take on all the financial responsibility so you can focus on starting and finishing a new degree.” I mean, we aren’t even married and he loves me enough to do this for me. He’s not that bad right? Hope everyone else is well in committed land.
greenbean
*delurking*
Hey y'all,..I'm not committed, and I've never even lived with a partner before, but I had to weigh in since its such a interesting discussion. I too don't think the cleaning issue is a boy/girl thing, but very much who is at home more. I currently live with two dudes. One is a student and one works from home most of the time. I work 9-5 away from home, and while I consider myself pretty neat, I can let things slide sometimes. Well, lately the roomie who works from home has been bitching at me about the dishes. We dont have a dishwasher, and my habit is this: make breakfast in the morning, leave the dishes in the sink, come home, wash those dishes, make dinner, then leave those dishes in the sink, get to those in the morning and so on. Apparantly, roomie can't handle this. He washes his dishes after every use and expects me to do the same. I think its unfair cuz I dont have as much time as he does in the house. He argues that he works as much as me, but I argue that he can afford to lag in the morning cuz he is on his on schedule. When he brings up that I can at least wash my dinner plates in the evening, cuz they can attract roaches at night, I don't really have an arguement against that, so I'm trying to be more diligent. Aaanyways, if he was my boyfriend, I would probably tell him if it bothers him so much then he should do all the dishes himself...but as I am a virgin of romantic cohabition, not sure if that would fly.

Another note, my pregnant boss makes more money/works more hours than her husband, and he always has the house spik-n-span for her when she gets home. She's always saying at work how grateful she is for her "house-husband", and if only he could carry the baby too. I always remind her to make sure HE knows how grateful she is, becuase if she is a wife in the same way she is a boss, she doesn't express appreciation very well tongue.gif

So in my long-winded way I think the one who is home more has more responsibility to the home, man or woman, and like everyone else says, there is always someone you can pay to do the dirty work. Glad you're working it out, Pugs!

*Like Zoya, I'll be back when I actually have a boyfriend*
LoveMyPugs
My dishwasher doesn't really work all that well. It washes but doesn't dry so everything must be towel dried when it's done running which drives me crazy. So really we use our dishwasher as a big strainer for the dishes to drip dry in. So I hand wash most of my dishes except when I have a big party I run the damn thing instead of hand washing everything. The last week I've been trying to wash whatever dishes are in the sink first thing in the morning before I do anything else. If I fill up the dishwasher with clean dishes that need to drip dry and if there are still more to do then they wait till the next day or later that night if I have time to get to them when I get home from class. Today, however, I have a ton of homework to do so I'm skipping them till after I get my homework done. I think homework is more important RIGHT?!?! Mr. Pug hasn't said a word and even washed up the few that I didn't get to the other day. Last night at 10:30 p.m. before he came up to bed I asked him if he'd mind running out to my car and getting my school books so I could start my homework ASAP in the morning. He moaned real loud and said, "Jesus Christ woman do I have to do everything around here?" I yelled back to forget it that I'd grab them in the morning and not to bother. What was funny was that he didn't even hear me because he already had the keys and was on his way to the car for me. He was just being a dick to get a rise out of me. He's such an ass sometimes. I told him I was going to check bust right quick and he said, "No you're not!" and took me by the hand and cuddled with me in bed until we both feel asleep. He was very sweet last night. Glad things are back to normal in my house. I hate when we fight. It makes everything so uneasy and tense and neither of us is happy for a few days.

(((((committed busties)))))
nickclick
pugs, glad things are going better at home. i often have that feminist chip on my shoulder too. but that's okay. keeping everything in check. good to make sure he knows you know that this is temporary because of your work situations, and not a boy/girl rest of your lives thing.

my dad recently retired (my mom did about 10 years ago) and all he does is go fishing, come home, throw his dirty clothes down in the basement, and eat the dinner my mom cooked. my mom cooks all meals, does all laundry, cleans the house, does lawn work, pays all bills, evvvvvvverything.... when he commuted and worked construction, i can see why my mom, home all day, took care of the house. but now the pattern's been established. and my mom complains complains complains. while my dad should of course do his share, my mom should have not allowed him to be so useless for so long. i mean, the man can operate heavy machinery, but is lost when trying to heat up a meal in the microwave! of course he's from another generation, and was born in italy, so there's that whole culture of momma's boys. and my mom's from that generation too, but didn't she see this coming????

i'm an oly child, and i'm honestly afraid if my mom dies first, i'll be my dad's babysitter, and not just because he may be sick or something. just because he's a man used to women taking care of his every need.
LoveMyPugs
nickclick - that is a messy situation. I really can't even think of any good advice to offer. Your dad should learn to at least help with the laundry. My grandfather, grandmother and my mom all went through the same situation. When my grandmother was alive she always handled the money. When she died my grandfather just didn't want to learn I guess because he never had to do it and so he was afraid to try it (can't teach and old dog new tricks kind of thing). My mom ended up having herself put on the account and handling all of my grandfather’s finances. She complained about it all the time but after he died she missed him coming over to have her write a check for him. That time she spent sitting at the dinning room table with him helping him pay his bills and all was time they spent together whether my mom was working or not she missed the time alone with him. However, she isn't having any of that with my dad and us girls. My dad knows how to do everything he needs to know to take care of himself when he gets old and if my mom passes first so all we have to do is just visit to spend time with him and not worry about "taking care" of him. Maybe that little personal insight from my family will help ease your mind a little... or not smile.gif
nickclick
i guess i'm derailing the topic a bit, sorry. of course i do and will help my parents with whatever i can, and if that's what my dad will need, that's what i'll do.

but i grew up seeing my mom always doing the boring stuff, housework, paperwork, etc. so yeah, it is always in the back of my mind when me and mr.nick are splitting chores, like am i doing more? or am i doing the 'girly' work?

my mom thinks i'm soooo lucky because mr.nick does most of the cooking. not like he's just doing his share, but like he's going above and beyond or something. she would never say to a guy "wow, your girlfriend cooks?? you're lucky!"
LoveMyPugs
I feel ya nickclick! I know that Mr. Pug and I really do split most stuff up but it bothers me that I do the "girly" stuff like cooking and cleaning. However, when I think about cutting the grass or taking out the trash I'm like, "I'm not doing that. That's man work." But, when it comes to the dishes and laundry I'm like, "Why can't you do some once in a while?" I'm totally two faced about it I know. It's the feminist chip like you said.

My mom bitches that my dad pays a kid in the neighborhood to cut the grass now and yet she is still doing all the laundry and general cleaning. I tell her all the time, "Why don't you just pay someone to come and do the cleaning for you?" She sure as hell can afford it but I think she'd rather just bitch about it and make herself look more hardworking then my dad.

My mom hasn't washed a dish in years because my dad has assumed all responsibility of the kitchen. Most of the time he cooks the meals and he cleans up afterwards. My sister who is 19 doesn't even do dishes.

I guess SOMETIMES and I mean just SOMETIMES I don't appreciate Mr. Pug like I should but on the other hand he doesn't always appreciate me either so I gues we are even and both have to work a little harder.

Sometimes it sucks being grown up and having responsibility. Yuck!!! smile.gif
greenbean
Thats funny, my dad has always been incharge of the kitchen and cooking dinner, and now that I think about it I tend to be very resentful of men who don't know how to cook,..like I'm thinking, "what? but thats your JOB!". I used to always get so frustrated with my ex for always getting take-out when i went over. Go figure the next guy I dated after him was a gormet chef!

ETA: Probably cuz I had this convo on the brain, I asked my boss about her husband's family, and turns out his parents died when he was a kid and his older sister raised him. Thought that was interesting and probably why hes comfortable in taking care of all the household chores.
nickclick
my friend sent me Salon's review of Katie Roiphe's new book about historical marriages of literary types.

she's up to the usual....

"...in the preface to "Uncommon Arrangements" in which she writes about the "dreary debates about marriage" that can "be entirely summed up in the question of who has cleaned up the smattering of Legos scattered across the floor of the baby's room." Roiphe wonders, "Why should there be so much fury attached to the most insignificant drudgeries of domestic life? ... Why when women have so many choices, are we still as angry as gloved suffragettes hurling bricks through windows? What unmitigated bliss, one does wonder, were we expecting?"

Here still is Roiphe's seductively low-pitched murmur, a signal tuned precisely for the ears of men who are sick of being hassled about the fucking Legos already. "This endless conversation about who is doing what in terms of house responsibilities and all that," said Roiphe wearily. "To me it goes back to that great Joan Didion essay: We are mired in the trivial."

But, I replied, citing Linda Hirshman's "Get to Work," which argued that the division of domestic labor is precisely where feminism has failed, we worry about the Legos because the person to whom it falls to pick them up (or to cook, clean, do the laundry and childcare) is the person who has less freedom to make money and live an independent life. And that person is often a she.

"How lucky we are that that should be our biggest issue," deadpanned Roiphe. "You'll find that it actually doesn't take that long to pick up the Legos. What really takes a long time is the three hours of rage and resentment about it."


i don't agree with her, as usual. "trivial" things add up. and they can be tiny examples of bigger issues. what if we said, oh we only make a few less cents than men, no big deal.....
grenadine
*delurking*
katie roiphe is a no-talent ass clown riding to fame on her mother's coattails and a fairly accurate marketing awareness of how sex sells.

my mister and i have a fairly traditional division of labour in that i do more cooking and cleaning and he does garbage, recycling, and more yardwork (although i also do yardwork). however, i don't mind because i'm the one delegating it. i know how to cook and clean and he doesn't, so he gets the grunt work more often (and the dishes at night, usually). the thing i DO mind is that i am the one who's mentally holding everything together -- who has a holistic sense of whether we desperately need groceries or diapers or what our toddler's going to eat for dinner -- and he is usually clueless, but that's to be expected because i'm the alpha. (and he doesn't work; i do; he's in school, fwiw).


and i know what you mean, nickclick, about the "you're so lucky!" line from the parents. MY mom thinks i'm so lucky to have such a biddable (ahem!), tolerant, easygoing husband. what she doesn't realise is that he's not biddable, just realistic, and that i am still doing most of the work in that i am responsible for the mental and actual household organisation -- he just accepts my delegating, usually.

and i am disdainful of anyone who doesn't know how to cook. that's like not knowing how to wash your hair. my dad worked 80-100 hour weeks when we were kids, but he would make sunday breakfast and occasionally dinner (chinese food, yum) to give my mom a break -- and, i think, because he enjoyed it. not being able to cook is just gross life incompetence.

*relurking*
LoveMyPugs
grenadine - although I think "not being able to cook is just gross life incompetence" is a bit harsh I do agree with you 100%. I think that some cook great food and some cook terrible food but cooking great dishes comes from practice, time and patience. EVERYONE should be able to cook. Now am I saying that everyone should be able to prepare a thanksgiving dinner to perfection the first time? NO! That takes years to learn. My mom can cook but her food isn’t great. She still follows recipes step by step. She doesn’t “enjoy” cooking so she doesn’t commit recipes or techniques to memory, which is fine. I on the other hand love to cook and rarely follow a recipe step by step. I watch food network all the time. I can bake and make many great dishes, however, I don’t cook breakfast or grill very well. I can admit it. Mr. Pug usually is the breakfast chef and the griller. Getting all the food to be ready at the same time is also a challenge at times. But come the fuck on, cooking is cooking. Whether it's baked manicotti or boxed Mac & cheese.

I have a friend who just recently got married and bought a house. She swears she "can't" cook. So they spend outrageous amounts of money eating out every night and when they run out of money they eat at her mom's house all the time. I think this is childish and that she is spoiled. Mr. Pug agrees. It's not brain surgery. Go buy a Betty Crocker Red Book for beginners and fucking learn. My mom didn't teach me to cook. I think the only thing she ever taught me was how to make scrambled eggs, which I don't even make the way she taught me anymore. It's really not that hard and I think people who waste money that they need for their mortgage or diapers for their daughter should go grocery shopping, cook and eat at home together as a family. If I were single I might eat out a lot more but that's only because I wouldn't want to have all the leftovers from preparing food for one, which I find to be kind of difficult. It's only cooking for Christ's sake.

Oh, and that Katie Roiphe chick is crazy. I just looked her up because I don't know anything about her. Her stance on date rape is psychotic. It's scary the people who are in this world.

Oh, sorry for the rant about cooking. Also, this friend of mine I was talking about who “can’t” cook, whenever I tell her that I had my family down and I made this big dinner for everyone she looks at me like I’m betraying women everywhere. WHY? I’m not a good feminist because I like to cook? Mr. Pug is great at sewing. He took a home ec. class in high school and can patch a hole in a dog toy or sew on a button better then I ever could. Does this make him less manly? I don’t even know how to turn a sewing machine on for the love of God.

Ok, I’m ranting again. Sorry. I’m out.
hellotampon
I'm probably moving in with my boyfriend in a couple weeks. We've been together for 3 years and I practically live there already, so it probably won't be terribly different. Yesterday he he made some passing comment about how we could have more sex now and I freaked out a little. I'm not sure why. I guess I'm scared of making a bigger committment. I'm 22 and have only had one other serious boyfriend and it obviously wasn't like this since I was 18 at the time. I'm so happy in this relationship; the one thing that has ever bothered me is that I feel like I'm too young and didn't get enough life experience before this happened. So I think his comment just seemed so permanent. It must be normal to feel a little freaked out though, right?
shinyx3
very seldom do we not have to give something up to have something else we want. is not experienceing other relationships and sex with other men and just generally being single important enough to you to make you unhappy in this relationship? it sounds like you really love him. it may be worth it to have him and let the rest of it go. honestly, dating and being single and one night stands in my opinion are over rated.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(shinyx3 @ Jul 11 2007, 04:30 PM) *
honestly, dating and being single and one night stands in my opinion are over rated.


Amen! I couldn't agree more. One of the things that always cracks me up about my "single" friends is that when they become single they are so happy to be single and then in three months they want to be in a relationship again.

I must say in my opinion that practically living together and living together are two different worlds. I felt the same way but when you are actually living together and around one another all the time it's really different. Not bad just different. Mr. Pug and I lived together in an apartment for two years then we moved into his mom's house for two years and then into our own house and I can tell you each experience was different, had it's pros and cons and both took adjusting on both our parts.

I don't think 22 is that young to be moving in together. I moved out with Mr. Pug when I was 19 and I've been living with him ever since. As far as not getting enough life experience, I met Mr. Pug when I was 14 and he was 16 and we've been together ever since. Whenever I tell people this they say that I "missed out" on so many experiences but I disagree. I think I missed out on a lot of bullshit that other people have to put up with. I'm proud that I've worked so hard and been able to maintain this relationship through thick and thin.
shinyx3
wow pugs! i totally do not think you missed out. i think that is great!
hellotampon
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jul 11 2007, 09:33 PM) *
Whenever I tell people this they say that I "missed out" on so many experiences but I disagree. I think I missed out on a lot of bullshit that other people have to put up with.


You have a point there. I have girlfriends that have put up with a lot of crap from shitty guys who in retrospect, were not even worth it. Meanwhile I am amazed at how healthy my relationship is, especially given how dysfunctional my family is (his is not). I guess I just have to realize that being in a relationship isn't the *wrong* thing for me to be doing. For the most part, I'm glad to be moving in.
starkitty
QUOTE(shinyx3 @ Jul 11 2007, 11:41 PM) *
wow pugs! i totally do not think you missed out. i think that is great!


*delurks*

Seconded. That's wonderful, really. I'm 17, and I just pray that I'll be able to stay with my current boyfriend that long, although it's something I usually try not to admit to myself.

*relurks*
grenadine
i agree! and i did not "miss out" by those people's definition, but i don't think my years of changing relationships like underwear were in any way essential to me.
an old friend of mine came over last night. he, is, in his own words, "proud to say i was a notorious slut." now he's splitting from his wife and talking about how he doesn't want to go back to that life because it's meaningless.
well, duh! so you see, even the most inveterate gadflies figure out eventually that all those experiences aren't what make life interesting.
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