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LoveMyPugs
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QUOTE(sareybelle @ Jul 16 2008, 11:45 AM) *
rather than in a relationship where both people are secretly miserable. I see middle aged couples sitting a full foot apart and looking tense, and I can't help thinking LOVE DIES LOVE DIES LOVE DIES. I mean everybody starts out happy right? I am convinced by many of the posts here that the secret to a happy relationship is sharing housework equally!


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*deep breath in attempt to not be overly sensitive and loose my temper regarding these common misconceptions about long-term relationships*

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QUOTE(beck @ Jul 16 2008, 12:57 PM) *
(the pugs are way ahead)


thanks beck...and don't think 5 years isn't something great. in my opinion anything past two is something to be very, very proud of.


QUOTE(roseviolet @ Jul 16 2008, 01:53 PM) *

Why do you assume that these people are not still in love with eachother? Just because they aren't touching eachother all the time? Or are you sensing tension in some other way?

Honestly, if Sheff and I were at a concert together, we probably wouldn't be cuddled up together because it would feel too sticky and hot. We're more likely to sit a foot apart just for our own personal comfort (We'll save the hot & sticky stuff for when we get home wink.gif ).

The truth is that love changes. That isn't necessarily bad, though. The heady passion cools off &, if you're lucky, you get more comfortable together. And sometimes that means that you don't touch as often in public. That doesn't mean that love has died. Indeed, these older couples may love one another to a depth that you don't comprehend yet. They may have faced illness and death and job loss and disappointments together - fought and yelled at eachother more times than they can count - and yet they have worked to keep their love alive and stay together. That's an astounding accomplishment that doesn't get recognized enough.

All relationships have different comfort levels. If you want to be in a relationship where you always cuddle arm-in-arm at concerts, then you can make a point to be like that. It will take a teensy bit of effort, but you can have it if you want it.


roseviolet - i couldn't have said it better myself. things do change but you don't loose love for one another. if anything it grows deeper. i feel more in love and more committed to Mr. Pugs now then I did last year or five years ago or 12 years ago. When we walk into a party together we both go seperate ways because we are independent people who don't need the other to lean on like a crutch in order to get through an evening together. we can sit in our living room at night and do seperate things, not speak and still feel close to one another. spending years together and moving beyond the infatuation phase and maturing into a deeper and more comfortable level of self awareness and love and respect for the other is "an astounding accomplishment that doesn't get recognized enough" as roseviolet said.

To have all those years of hard work and dedication be undermined by a person assuming that two people in a long term relationship are "secretly miserable" is rude and ignorant.

Oh yeah...and fucking housework has nothing to do with it!!! but sex does wink.gif
sareybelle
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jul 16 2008, 02:40 PM) *
blink.gif
mad.gif

*deep breath in attempt to not be overly sensitive and loose my temper regarding these common misconceptions about long-term relationships*

dry.gif
thanks beck...and don't think 5 years isn't something great. in my opinion anything past two is something to be very, very proud of.
roseviolet - i couldn't have said it better myself. things do change but you don't loose love for one another. if anything it grows deeper. i feel more in love and more committed to Mr. Pugs now then I did last year or five years ago or 12 years ago. When we walk into a party together we both go seperate ways because we are independent people who don't need the other to lean on like a crutch in order to get through an evening together. we can sit in our living room at night and do seperate things, not speak and still feel close to one another. spending years together and moving beyond the infatuation phase and maturing into a deeper and more comfortable level of self awareness and love and respect for the other is "an astounding accomplishment that doesn't get recognized enough" as roseviolet said.

To have all those years of hard work and dedication be undermined by a person assuming that two people in a long term relationship are "secretly miserable" is rude and ignorant.

Oh yeah...and fucking housework has nothing to do with it!!! but sex does wink.gif


Okay, so you've never seen a couple that seems at odds with each other in public? That doesn't happen? Divorce, not a reality? I'm not talking about people who are happy, independently and together. I am talking about people who are miserable, independently and together. It's not that I don't think that the former is impossible, and the latter is inevitable. It's just that the possibility scares me.

We've all seen couples that have lasted, we've all seen ones that fall apart and separate, and ones who probably should have separated a long time ago. I'm not saying anything about YOUR relationship, or anyone on this boards. Just that I was sad to see a lot of people who didn't seem to be enjoying each other's company very much. When I see happy couples, I am cheered. When I see couples arguing or ignoring each other, I get sad. All this is probably compounded by the fact that I just started on the pill again and my mind is working in strange ways.

I do apologize if what I said offended you, but rude and ignorant might be taking it a little far?

And I think my point about housework was that sexy times might be more likely to happen if everyone feels respected and cared for.

beck
i don't think sareybelle meant to dismiss all long-term couples as miserable, i had the impression she was thinking more of particular people that she'd seen. there are always people who are good or bad adverts for their particular state - like i have friends who are always nagging us to get married, but i don't like what i see in their relationships - and then i have to remind myself that it is not an indictment of the state of marriage, just my take on their marriage. children is another case in point - it's easy to be put off having kids when you see some parents wink.gif

on the housework thing - it makes a difference for me but for other couples it's not such a big deal. for me, sharing household tasks like laundry, cleaning etc is important as we both work full time so i don't see a reason for me to do more than him. we have a pretty fair distribution of labour but when we first moved in together i sometimes felt like i was doing more and i did start to resent it.

but on the other hand i do love to cook and i do the majority of the food shopping and cooking - for me that isn't really a chore, it's something i like to do to unwind after work. different strokes for different folks?

ETA: cross-posted!
thirtiesgirl
QUOTE(sareybelle @ Jul 16 2008, 08:45 AM) *
I've been happily single for about five years now, and was pretty used to the idea of being alone and satisfied rather than in a relationship where both people are secretly miserable. My feelings for him developed quite quickly and completely took me by surprise. Now, even when we are at a concert with our arms around each other, I see middle aged couples sitting a full foot apart and looking tense, and I can't help thinking LOVE DIES LOVE DIES LOVE DIES. I mean everybody starts out happy right? He has argued that it's a little early to throw in the towel on us though.

I'll say this: if you and your partner make it to that point where it seems like the relationship has died, the infatuation and 'new love' feeling has gone, I believe it takes a lot of personal strength to make it through the next phase of the relationship, which can sometimes last for years (from what I hear). The next phase being the point where you become more comfortable in your relationship, you continue developing as individuals while periodically checking in with your partner, and yet are still able to function as a cohesive unit. Kind of like what Pugs described in her long term relationship. Hopefully during that phase, you'll also be able to open up and talk with your partner about the relationship, how you feel, how he/she feels, and be as open with your hopes and fears as possible.

My point in writing all this is that I recognize how scary it can be to experience your relationship changing into that more comfortable and (dare I say?) separate but connected phase, and also very scary to be open and honest about your hopes and fears. Personally, I've yet to make it past the 5-year mark in any relationship. Once things start 'settling down,' and the partner and I are heading into that separate but connected phase, I really start freaking out. I get so afraid he's losing interest, the relationship doesn't matter to him, etc., etc., on and on, all those fears that pop into my head (and I know I'm not alone in this).

The truth is, once you reach that phase, the relationship doesn't matter to him...as much. Nor should it be the all-important defining factor for me, either. We've reached the point where it's time to individuate, establish ourselves as individual people within the relationship...but still remain connected. As I wrote above, that's a very scary process, and I've yet to get past it with a solid relationship.

But I'm working on myself and my issues with that process and hopefully the next time I have a chance at a relationship and reach that point, I'll live my way through it with better skills, fewer fears and more communication.

...I just gotta find a guy to date me first. biggrin.gif
sareybelle
I'm rereading what I wrote and can totally see where it was easy to read two ways- the "secretly miserable" sentance. Sorry about that, please allow me to clarify that. What I meant was that if given the choice between two and only two options: 1) being alone and happy and 2) being with someone and miserable, I'll take alone and happy. However, I do believe that with someone and very happy is VERY possible, and if that third option were thrown into the mix I'd gladly take that. Does that make more sense? I don't believe that there are only two ways of being in this world, at all. But I can see how what I wrote was ambiguous. I am sorry that I implied something that certainly would seem offensive.

Thirtiesgirl, thanks for that insight as well. What you wrote resonated particularly sharply because that's the thing about this guy- we kind of identified ourselves as a team SO QUICKLY. This is after years of being single and establishing our own identities- we've both had great careers, I'm in a band, we love our friends and families, travel a lot, do whatever we feel like doing, blah blah blah. I wonder what will happen if indeed the sense of familial camraderie wears off? Right now all we can do is gush about how clever the other is. If I tie my shoes differently than him, he notices. "It's clever, the way you just figured out that tip Eric." "You drive really safely. Usually I'm a nervous passenger, but you use the signal and check the mirror every time." It's SICK. I just wonder what it will be like if/when everything starts to feel normal instead of us being completely hyperaware of how happy we are.
beck
heheheh we are still kind of gushy like that - although i am not a PDA kind of girl so we do it in the privacy of our own home wink.gif

i was single for long enough that i generally avoid being too couply (sp?) in public as i remember how shit it was being single and surrounded by what seemed like at the time, smug couples. (misanthropic, moi?)

now i really like seeing happy couples as long as they are not groping each other or anything, and i will hold hands and even (!) kiss

i really need to get off the internets and go eat something that is not chocolate. laters smile.gif
sareybelle
QUOTE(beck @ Jul 16 2008, 03:44 PM) *
heheheh we are still kind of gushy like that - although i am not a PDA kind of girl so we do it in the privacy of our own home wink.gif

i was single for long enough that i generally avoid being too couply (sp?) in public as i remember how shit it was being single and surrounded by what seemed like at the time, smug couples. (misanthropic, moi?)

now i really like seeing happy couples as long as they are not groping each other or anything, and i will hold hands and even (!) kiss

i really need to get off the internets and go eat something that is not chocolate. laters smile.gif


I always liked seeing couples make out in public even in my long years of being single, so it hasn't surprised me that much that we're kind of gross with the PDA. He has ridden his bike down to the park by the White House a few times and we've napped on a blanket at lunch and totally made out. I think I was single for so long that I thought, "if I ever meet a man I like again I'm making out with him in public and who cares anymore!" I suspect it will wear off, meanwhile our friends are probably a little shocked because I guess it's pretty out of character, at least for me. You may be Miss Anthropic, but I'm the runner up! I don't think anyone foresaw me becoming such a sap, myself included.

I need to get off the internets and go shelve some books! Thanks for the advice and insight everybody.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(sareybelle @ Jul 16 2008, 04:03 PM) *
I suspect it will wear off


the real trick is not letting it wear off. mr. pugs and i (when we've had enough to drink) will still kiss in dark corners at parties. our friends tease us but if we apologize once caught they just say something like, "Hey that's how you two have lasted as long as you have." Mr. Pug smacks me on the ass in front of our friends all the time. Usually, I'm shocked and a bit embarrassed but he's all smiles and our friends usually are laughing at my red face. Whatever!! I can't handle it. (I'm not too proud to admit that I like his attention.) tongue.gif
Moonpieluv
I get a little scared of exactly what sareybelle discussed... I feel like Mr. Luv and I have already reached that seperate, but comfortable phase or something. only I'm not so sure how comfortable I am with that... seeing as we have only been together for a few months. It's like we're already settled in.. nevermind having romance...I'd being happy with a few sweet words or compliments every now and again. We are affectionate to each other, but mostly he just sits in front of his computer all day and into the night... and the next morning. His whole world it seems is engrossed with his puter hobbies..gaming and their forums. It's like we sped thru the springtime of love... I would really like more springtime. It's like he got me, and now...
shinyx3
i feel the same way too often. i do not think romance comes naturally to very many men. they figure it out enough to get the girl then it is like it is all used up. (false advertising?) i still try to keep myself pretty and not let myself go (honestly i think this may be more for myself than for my man though) where are the sweet words and complements and phone calls and back rubs and little things that let me know i am thought of.

moonpie, my man loves his 'puter more that me too. seriously it gets way more time in bed than i do. *pouting*

as for the PDA i love it but only get it when we are away from where we live and he is rather tipsy. i used to get it all the time. we used to go out together lots too. now we only go out every 4 months or so. pretty say i know. i pout about it but he just gets mad and says i am not being supportive of him and his work. (who the fuck supports me i wonder?)

ok, i did not come on here to be all ranting about my man. sorry. i just wanted to say that i am empathizing with the "comfort zone"

LoveMyPugs
Moonpieluv - You might think you and Mr. Luv "have already reached that seperate, but comfortable phase or something" but that might just be the infatuation dying down a bit. "Dying" is the wrong term. Mr. Pug used to say that love is like a charcoal grill. You have big flames in the beginning but then it dies down and you have to keep the coals warm for a life time. I think that die down period comes at different times for everyone. For Mr. Pugs and I, I think it was after about two years. We had a really hard couple of years there but then things spiked again and we are both very happy. Lately, we've had a lot of new speed bumps to deal with. Well, reallly, it's stuff that I need to deal with. He's changed a lot and I still love him and am trying to adjust. The hard thing is that I feel like I have to adjust to this alone. Mr. Pugs is very manly and doesn't deal well with the emotional times that I go through as a female. PMS for him is awful. He just get so frustrated with me. Sometimes I think he wants to move out for a week of every month. Sometimes I want to move out. I worry he's going to just get sick of my shit and bounce but I hope he sees past those times and sticks it out. relationships aren't easy.

shinyx3 - no i don't think romance comes naturally to men. Mr. Pugs doesn't have a romantic bone in his body. He'll give you a lecture on why flowers are pointless and why sharing your feelings to stupid because we know each other so well we already know what the other is thinkings so why share/talk about what we are feeling on the inside. men don't share. mr. pugs debates. he doesn't believe in marriage. he thinks it's just a piece of paper and hates the planning and money it takes. it doesn't matter that the event (small as it may be) means something to me. he just doesn't get it and therefore doesn't want it. it's very frustrating. wedding plans will always be on the back burner in his mind. i've kind of accepted that about him but it makes me sad and frustrated.

I still get sweet words but they are different then they used to be. For example, the other day Mr. Pugs was playing call of duty. I was upstairs for a bit. When I came downstairs he got the in a certain game room he's been missing and he made this comment like, "I always get the best rooms when you watch me. You are my good luck charm." I thought that was cute and it made me smile. Certainly not the sweet nothings he used to whisper to me when we first started dating but I take what I can get. Plus I get many I love you's and cuddles. It's enough to keep me around. tongue.gif

roseviolet
Here's a funny perspective: when Sheff and I were first falling in love, I longed for the comfort zone. The infatuation stage scares me because I've been through it with multiple people before - and it was always so wonderful with all of those men - but after the infatuation wore off, I felt that I finally got to see whether I really worked with those guys & whether we would survive in the long term. Obviously, most of my previous relationships couldn't hold up in the long term, but the longer I'm with someone, the more painful it is to break up. I guess I felt that, if we weren't meant to be together, I wanted to know right away so that it wouldn't be more painful. Also, I loved Sheff and I wanted us to make it, but I didn't want my mind clouded by the delusions of infatuation. I wanted to know that what we had was real and would stand the test of time.

Well, we've made it to the comfort zone. We've known eachother for more than 6 years, been married for more than 3. And we're happy. I think back on the passionate early days of our romance fondly & I appreciate those days, while at the same time appreciating the deeper love and respect we have developed over time. Like Beck, we don't make out in public, but that's kinda our way of respecting eachother and our relationship. We just wouldn't be comfortable doing that in public. We'd rather do it at home. That doesn't mean that we haven't talked about having a few moments of steathy intrigue in quiet corners, but when it comes down to it, we'd rather be home where we can do whatever we want as loudly as we want without worrying about getting caught.
[cough cough] wink.gif

Honestly, though, this is all about personal preferences. Your relationship can be what you want it to be. Just don't expect it to happen on its own. It takes work and it takes communication. It's a shame that "work" is such a small word, because it is such a HUGE thing. Even "communication" doesn't seem like a long enough word to express the enormous importance of it. It takes dedication and effort. But if you're with the right person, there is a tenderness there & a pride that you feel when you make the effort & when you do the work. So in a strange way, the work can be pleasurable.

One of the main reasons why I adore my husband so much is because we talk about deeply important things. We don't just chatter on about movies and books alone. We talk about our fears and worries. It can still be hard to bring things up, but we always feel so much better afterwards. He has such an amazing perspective on things that his words always help be find a way to get through the issues I'm facing. When the problem is between the two of us, it's obviously going to be difficult, but we're always better for doing it. If we couldn't talk through problems, there's no way in hell we'd be together today. It's easy to get through the happy times together. It's our ability to work well together through the shit that has made our relationship as strong and beautiful as it is. It is the core of our & is our strongest bond. Even in our marriage vows, we said something that acknowledged that we'd been through hell and back together and we'd come out stronger because we'd supported one another. "Surley this goodness is no mistake," we said in our vows. It wasn't a mistake. Not at all. It took work, but a special type of work and communication that I've never been able to accomplish with any other human being I've ever met. It wasn't a mistake. It was love.

Another odd perspective: One of the reasons why I felt confident marrying Sheff is because I could imagine us buying life insurance together. I know that sounds horribly boring, but that's the point. We have an ability to talk about the really important-yet-boring things & agree on them. We also like a lot of the same movies and music and of course that's important, but when it comes to life's big decisions - no matter how boring they are - I know we're there as a team, tackling it together. That creates a core of strength that I feel very deeply.

I will admit that this is hard. There are times when I really really wish we didn't have to deal with communication. I wish that Sheff could read my mind and surprise me with the exact thing I want. Every once in a blue moon, he does. But most of the time, we have to tell eachother what we want. If I want to spend more time with him, I have to tell him. If I want us to do more things together, I have to plan it (He plans things for us, too). We have had to sit down and discuss this and take mutual responsibility for it. If one of us thinks the other is slacking, then we talk about it (and yup, sometimes the conversation gets tense, but we keep talking until we understand eachother better & the tension is gone).

I feel that I should say now that I am not trying to say that everyone's relationship needs to be exactly like mine & Sheff's. These are just examples from my life. I don't think that every couple needs to get married and I don't think that every couple needs to cut down on the PDA as the relationship gets older. All you need to do is work to have a relationship that makes you both happy.

A couple of years ago I met a girl who'd been dating the same guy for a couple of years. She really really wanted to get married & hoped that maybe, since we're married, Sheff and I would have some influence ... that we might be able to pressure her boyfriend into coming around to her way of thinking somehow. Obviously, this chick didn't know me very well because I would never do something like that. Relationships are far too personal for me to do something as rude as tell someone whether they should or shouldn't get married, whether they should or shouldn't have a baby, etc. I will tell people that they need to talk with eachother and work to have a relationship that meets both of their needs, but only they can know what that means. I have friends who are not married and have no desire to do so. If that makes them both happy, then good for them. I have friends who are in open relationships who occasionally have sex with other people. If that makes them both happy, then good for them. I have friends who've decided to never have children and I have other friends who had 4 babies by the time they were 30. They made different choices, but they each worked with their partners to make decisions that make them happy. That's what matters.
LoveMyPugs
roseviolet - we recently went on vacation with friends and they had two little boys. mr. pugs said he thought he might bond with the kids and maybe it would change his perspective on children. when we came back from vacation he said the he, more then ever, doesn't think he wants to have kids. here i had my hopes up and now, nope he still doesn't care for them. oh well, i guess i'm going to just have to enjoy my nieces and nephews and my pugs. mr. pugs is not worth giving up for the children that could have been.
sareybelle
So much insight, thanks everybody... I LOVED the bit about how communication isn't a long enough word to convey it's importance. I think that will stick in my mind forever. I also loved the part about your wedding vows. I have to say that while I am often annoyed at the commercial aspect of weddings (I am in a bluegrass band that is occasionally hired to perform, wedding planners are the a** of my life), I always love watching the way people look at each other during the ceremony, and hearing the homemade vows. I think more men cry than women at their weddings!

So, a slight change of topic since I am feeling romantic, what's "your song," if you have one? I have sung at a lot of people's weddings but so far, have never had a repeat of a first dance song. That's because I generally help the couple pick one if they don't have one already in mind, based on the history their relationship (we usually only do friends' weddings). In fact, I usually have one already in the back of my mind, so when they're like, "what do you think we should do for our fi..." I'm like, "In Spite Of Ourselves by John Prine." Or "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, by the Jayhawks. Trust me."

My favorite of all time was singing this one at my BEST FRIEND IN THE WORLD'S wedding. She and her husband have a boat and go out on the water all the time, in fact that was where much of their courtship happened. So I picked this one by Gillian Welch- it's a waltz and easy to slow dance to.

I wanna go all over the world
and start livin' free
I know that's there's somebody who
is waiting for me
I'll build a boat, steady and true
as soon as she's done
I'm gonna sail straight into the arms
of my dear someone

One little star, smiling tonight
knows where you are
stay little star steady and bright
to guide me afar
rush little wave, out over the deep
for now I've begun
Hurry and take me into the arms
of my dear someone
hurry and take me into the arms
of my dear someone.

Don't know that I'll get married, but if I do, I think I'd like "True Love Travels On a Gravel Road" because I think it's such a great song and every time I heard it, it would remind me of the kind of people I hope that we as a couple would be.

How many girls choose cotton dress worlds
When they could have satins and lace
And stand by her man through good times and bad
And still keep a smile on her face
And how many hearts could face the winters we've known
And still not turn cold
True love travels on a gravel road
Love is a stranger
And hearts are in danger
On smooth streets paved with gold
True love travels on a gravel road
Down through the years we've had hard time and tears
But it only makes our love grow
And we'll stay together
No matter how hard the wind blows
Not once have I seen your blue eyes filled envy
And stray from the warmth that they hold
True love travels on a gravel road
Now love is a stranger
And hearts are in danger
On smooth streets paved with gold
True love travels on a gravel road
True love travels on a gravel road
And it's gonna be rough sometimes
But I want to travel only along the road with you

roseviolet
LoveMyPugs, sorry to hear that you two disagree on such important topics as marriage and kids. That must be tough. sad.gif

I gotta say that I disagree with the notion that "sharing your feelings to stupid because we know each other so well we already know what the other is thinkings so why share/talk about what we are feeling on the inside". Actually, a statement like this would be a deal-breaker for me. Guess it just shows again how we all have different priorities. A deal-breaker for some is a simple compromise for others. Compromise is certainly an important aspect of any relationship, but you have to learn for yourself where to draw the line.


When I broke up with my last boyfriend, I was distrought. We'd been together for 7 years & I'd always known in my heart that it wouldn't last, but I didn't want to let go. When I dumped him, I hadn't even been planning on it. I was just fed up and I could take it anymore & I broke up with him, seemingly, on a whim. In the 2 weeks after the break-up, everything else in my life seemed to crumble apart: I got fired from my job and my family's beloved dog drowned to death while I slept less than 100 feet away. It was so horrible I have no words to describe it. I started to wonder if I'd made a big mistake. Luckily, my beloved Uncle Buster was visiting my parents and he had a great talk with me. He and my aunt have been married for over 50 years. At one point, they came terribly close to divorcing, but they worked their way back. He said that the biggest lesson he learned is "You've gotta put it all out on the table." You've got to be willing to share everything. Talk about everything. Even the shitty stuff. You've got to work together as a team. If you aren't a team, then it isn't going to work. As I listened to him, I saw that my ex and I had never been a team in that sense. We were great playmates & friends (and that ex is now one of my best friends & still a fun person to talk to). But when it came down to my life partner, I wanted more. I needed more. And according to my uncle, I definitely wasn't asking for too much.

So now I'm with a guy who will talk about his feelings. I'm not saying that every day he sits down and spills his guts like he's in therapy or something. I just mean that if he's troubled by something, he talks about it with me. If needs to ramble about something that's troubling him at work, I'm here to listen. If he's concerned about something in his personal life or between the two of us, I want him to bring it to me. Plus, there's the really good stuff! Like, we say, "I love you" multiple times every day because it makes us happy. We tell eachother that we're proud of eachother. We compliment eachother (Last night I tried a new recipe that he really enjoyed. He must have told me 3 times how much he liked it!). We don't buy eachother a lot of gifts, but that's what we prefer (To me, surprise gifts = clutter. I'd rather he save the money & just give me a good shagging wink.gif ). That's the kind of relationship we want, so that's what we work to have. But that's just us. It's not perfect, but it's really great.
roseviolet
Sareybelle, you must have posted while I was composing my earlier response. Those are some really fabulous songs you've listed! I love it when people play lesser known songs at their weddings. "In Spite of Ourselves" is simply hilarious, yet sweet in the best way.

Are you familiar with Susan Werner? I get a feeling you might like her. Her style is kinda folksy, but she's really all over the map (in a really great way). The disc of her's I 've been listening to the most lately is "I Can't Be New." Most of the songs are very Cole-Porter-esque. They sound like they could be standards, but they're her original work. There's one song in particular that always reminds me of my parents' 40th wedding anniversary bash from last year. It's a sweet, romantic little thing called "Don't I Know You".

Don't I know you from someplace
I'd swear I know you from someplace
'Cos that really is some face
Don't I know you from someplace

Don't I know you from somewhere
I'd swear I know you from somewhere
From those lips beyond compare
Don't I know you from somewhere

You, I know you from our honeymoon
And from the happy day we met
But when the bills pile high
And when the babies cry
How very quickly we forget

Don't I know you from sometime
Yes it's really been some time
So let's steal tonight from time
'Cos I know you from someplace

You brush against my skin
The passion's back again
This love song isn't over yet

'Cos I still know you from somewhere
I can still hear the drum there
We were never far from there
'Cos I know you from somewhere
I still know you from sometime
Don't I know you from someplace



Honestly, Sheff & I don't have one song. We have a number of them & most are not really wedding appropriate. We didn't really have a lot of music at our wedding. It was a small, intimate affair (less than 20 people) so we didn't have a DJ or dancing or anything like that. Just a string quartet for the ceremony & part of the reception. What can I say ... we wanted something simple, cozy, & intimate.

Some of our songs include New Model Army's "225", "In a Big County" by Big Country (very old school, but if you knew us, you'd know the lyrics fit), and "Sweet Avenue" by "Jets to Brazil" (love!). If you asked Sheff, he'd probably throw in "Calling You" by Blue October & a few more. And the list keeps growing as time goes by. As I said, I've been listening to Susan Werner this week & there are a number of her songs that make me think of Sheff - especiall "Tall Drink of Water".


The summer sun's blazing
It bakes the ground
But I'm waitin' baby
'Til you come 'round
You're like a tall drink of water
On a long hot day

Withering flowers
Thirsty grass
Here you come shining
Shimmering in the glass
Just like a tall drink of water
On a long hot day

And all of this summer puts thoughts in my head
Thoughts that simmer the sheets of my bed
And I don't remember just what you said
But oh I'm sizzling now

And you're six foot and something
So cool, so slim
Just add a slice of lemon on the rim
You're a tall drink of water
On a long hot day

And I don't remember just what you said
But oh I'm sizzling now

So pour me a pitcher of those sweet, sweet eyes
And let the mercury forever rise
'Cos you're like a tall drink of water
You're like a tall drink of water
On a long hot
Day
edie52
Rose, your posts about you and Sheff often make me teary...

Sareybelle, I completely relate to your fears. I have all of the same worries, though back in the infatuation stage I actually didn't think about it too much. I have realized though, that it's pointless to worry too much about these things. EVERYTHING in life changes. Sometimes that sucks, sometimes it's a blessing, but the most important thing is how you deal with it. You've already gotten a bunch of more specific advice from the others, so I'll leave it at that.

I've been with my boyfriend for over a year now. We fell in love quickly and I instantly felt comfortable with him, and soothed by his presence (yet it was really exciting too). I moved away for 8 months and we stayed together through that. And I think we're now entering the reality phase, where we're more comfortable, and it really scares me. When we see each other he doesn't kiss me hello any more or look at me in that totally smitten way, and sometimes I notice that hours have gone by and he's barely touched me. We see each other pretty much every day, and we've both been exhausted from work lately, so it's understandable. Yet we make a good team and we WANT to see each other, at least I do (I hope he's not doing it out of habit or obligation). I've talked about my fears with him, but he just reassures me that everything is normal and says I worry too much. I do trust him and believe him when he says that he doesn't want to break up. I don't want to either, I want to work on things more. He's receptive to talking, but I've been talking about this too much lately. Maybe the problem is that it always comes out as paranoid fears rather than simply wanting to talk about which way our relationship is going. I just want him to admit that things ARE changing, and know how he feels about that. But he always just says he's tired.

He's soon going to the other side of the country to be with his family for a month; I'm invited but can't decide whether I should "follow" him there (even though I want to go and it would be a new experience for me) or stay here and live my independent life with my own friends and work and apartment. I have to decide soon.


Sareybelle, we don't have a song that we've agreed upon, but in my head it's "Nocturama" by Nick Cave. It's kind of dark, but the chorus is just so beautiful. And "Sweet Thing" by Van Morrison.
Moonpieluv
Rose and Pugs and ShinyX--I do agree that getting to that zone of truly discovering someone is important to me. I'm still in the process of getting to really know Mr. Luv. When we first reconnected, it was like a fairytale of sorts...reconnected after 10 yrs, coming together in a wild spark of "you're the one" ness, meeting the family, having him be so gung-ho and helpful with moving down here, etc. It's just after one week of being here, I realized that he was more of an avid game player than I thought he was... I mean, I knew that he spent time on the computer, but not to this extent. I was told that if I ever wanted to do an activity...explore this town, work in the yard, have him help me with house projects that require two people... all I would have to do is simply ask and the game would be paused. Not so, I'm afraid. I have taken to telling him what I would like to do( in a nice way) etc... but that doesn't necessarily mean that it happens. Of course, he's gotta want to do these suggested things with me. I find that the game usually wins out almost every time. I realize that this is his hobby, and that I would very much like to focus on one in the same manner... mainly because I think it would help me understand why he gives so much of his time to the puter. I think that it would take the focus off of me feeling like "why doesn't he Want to hang out with me?" to "well, we can do things together as a plan... in the meantime, I shall pamper myself".
Also, don't think for a second that I haven't tried to communicate my concerns with him on numerous occasions. I have tried just being open and not on the offensive about it... I've flubbed and been on the offensive about it... I have tried just not bringing it up and hoping he gets the hint that he's just not devoting enough quality time with me and try to entertain myself with other things...meanwhile, I would really like to spend time with him. Or maybe, it's not just me wanting to spend time with him... it's me wanting him to want to spend time with me rather than consecutively playing starwars til the wee hours of the morning talking on the phone with his gamer buddy. The times I've tried to express my wanting to spend one on one, he's said that he's not nearly on the computer as much as I perceive. That this is what he's always done. He has not exemplified balance as a result of said communication. I know that he must use it for work, but....It's frustrating, and I'm trying to come to terms with it. Trying to figure out if I can accept that most nights will be him doing exactly what he usually does. When he comes to bed, at least he rubs on my back and head a bit, puts his hand on my face as if he's gazing upon me... gawww..It is really sweet and really reassures me that we've got a good thing going.
But, It also cuts into time in which we could be expressing love sexually, as well. His schedule is very much off with mine because he chooses to stay up very late on a regular basis playing computer games, then of course... he sleeps in much later than I do. Another issue I've tried to understand is his low libido, and his discomfort about discussing it.

I do worry about his inability to try new things, his distrust of things unfamiliar to him, how he is seemingly narrow-minded. He debates, too... ((Pugs)). His supposed "logic" can be very annoying sometimes. His "logic" or his "debate" can seriously hinder us having a good heart to heart talk. I don't think he realizes how bigoted and abrasive he can come across sometimes... I think my humanitarianism softens him just a hair...either that or he just accepts that I'm more compassionate or liberal even though he doesn't always agree. Once I can get him to stop all that "logic" business, he usually opens up and is more tender.

We are affectionate. We do say we love each other frequently. He does do little things that make me happy. He has been incredibly supportive of me not having funds right now. I know he wants to the core things that I want--family, home, marriage, teamwork. I SEE a future with us... life insurance, kids, all of it. I'm just not sure how well he understands how one goes about these things. That compromise should be practiced in order to ensure both of us are happy. That he should really listen to me, and validate my feelings. I DO NOT think I'm being outrageous in needing this.

Anyways, Rose.. I'm so glad for you having such a wonderful relationship with your husband. I'm not saying mine's sucky, I've just got a few things I'm trying to figure out how to compromise, accept, understand, or otherwise decide whether it's a deal-breaker or not. I've been in a very long term relationship before, so I'm fully aware of the waxs and the wanes, the ebbs and flows. I was in one that I had more in common with in terms of musical tastes, style/fashion, books, indie stuff.. but in the end kablam. Now, I'm with a guy that would be considered "off" from what people would expect, and I truly want to work at this relationship, and don't feel negative about it taking work. This a man I may marry...so I want my ducks in a row... I really want to know what I'm dealing with here. Perhaps that's the reason for my heightened sensitivity.

I dunno.. .maybe I worry too much. We go on vacation for a week with his family tomorrow. I truly hope that will give us some superior quality time, that he will be more connected with me.

Sorry so long!
shinyx3
moonpie, i truly think it is a woman lot in life to worry. i know i have such a hard time just letting things play out and not worry. for instance hubby came home last night from work moody. tough day. i ask about it listen to him rant, get a beer for him make him dinner, clean up dinner, ask if there is anything i can do (multiple times). he say thanks i am better. then proceeds to be grumpy at me all night long. so this morning when i am getting up and he is getting ready to go and isn't at all affectionate (no good bye, love, have a good day) i worry about what is wrong. he is probably just still stressed about work and i am likely making it worse by being over concerned.

rose, you do sound like you have a wonderful relationship. not that i think mine is not good. i do have a wonderful husband that i love dearly.

pugs, you also seem to have a strong relationship and it is good to hear from some one who is really able to accept someone for who they are. i commend you for your ability to do that with your man. i was so sure i did not want any more kids. so very very sure. but my hubby really wanted a baby and after a while i began to want another one too. people can change there minds and grow and see thing differently so you never know. . . bu, if mr pugs never decides kids are a good idea for him you seem to be dealing with that and able to accept it. busties are strong women!

as for a song . . .

Ágætis Byrjun - Sigur Rós

he took me out 6 times before he kissed me. we went to this artsy party and is was chilly out so we had sort of snuggled up. we had not been at all physical yet though. so that set the mood and made me want more. that was the first time he took me to his home and it was quite late. we sat on the couch and drank tea in front of the fire and that was the song playing when he kissed me. i still get all squishy inside when i think about it. i am smiling typing this. the next weekend we ditched the physical boundaries and mmmmmm.
ok, i got a little carried away there but since i didn't post lyrics i thought i should explain.
roseviolet
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that everything is Happiness and Rainbows all the time with me and Sheff. It definitely isn't and I can totally sympathize with your situation, Moonpieluv. I have friends who say, "Oh, Rose, your marriage is so perfect and wonderful. I wish my relationship could be just like yours," and that makes me feel guilty because I feel that I'm giving people false expectations or something.

The truth is that we have problems. We fight. We have disagreements. We piss eachother off. It happens. But we tend to keep it between the two of us. If I have a problem with Sheff, I can only fix it by talking to Sheff. That's my policy. Occasionally I might talk to my best girlfriend about some things, but that's because she knows me & Sheff so well & I know she can call me out if I'm being shitty or have my head up my ass (which is true sometimes).

During the first year of our marriage we had this one HUGE fight.
HUUUUUUUGE!!!!!
It was LEGENDARY. And it was a very unique problem, as well. I will not recount the tale here. However, I will tell you that I called my best friend about it and she was totally agast. And then she started laughing and the absurdity of it all. Of course, it wan't absurd to me. I was livid! I was so pissed off, I researched anullment law, fercrissakes. This was one of those incidents that is so bizarre it does not even seem real. If I had seen a movie in which this had happened to 2 of the characters, I would have said it was ridiculous and unrealistic. But it happened and it was AWFUL. Bad bad awful bad. I had a rehearsal for a play that night and I seriously thought about not going home to him. I considered staying at my parents' house or my best friend's house. But in the end, I chose to go home. I chose to sleep in the same bed as him. I chose to talk to him. And yell and scream and finally calm down and talk some more. And we came to an agreement. And we understood eachother better. And we got through it and moved on.
Some of our friends ended up hearing about this Legenday Incident. I can kinda laugh about it now. But for me what makes it so legendary is that we survived it! And we didn't survive it by ignoring the issue. Instead, we faced it and talked and - gasp - came to an understanding.

So no, we aren't perfect. There are flowers and rainbows, sure. There's also the occasional pile of crap that needs to be cleared away. But that's okay. That's life.

Anyway.

The computer game thing is a tough one. Sheff makes video games for a living, so he needs to keep up on what's happening in the field. That means he plays games here at home. If he finds a game he really likes, he can get sucked into it and play it for hours and hours every day for weeks. Sometimes this doesn't bother me too much. We're each loners in our own way & we like having time alone. If he wants to play his game while I watch America's Next Top Model, that is 1000% fine with me, you know what I mean? But it can get out of control so easily. I've played some of these PC games with him before and, I swear, time goes by SO much faster in the game world that in reality. There are many times when we've been playing & I thought that only 20 minutes had passed, but it had actually been 3 hours! I remember one night when we were playing and I swore that it was only about 11pm, but when I looked at the clock, it was nearly 3am! How does that happen?! My point is that I have a little sympathy with the time-flying-by thing.

But.
The Real World needs to come before the Gaming World.

Sheff and I talked about this recently and he said that sometimes he just needs to be reminded of this The Real World is more important than the gaming world (and your real spouse is more important than virtual friends). Sounds obvious, but it can be easily forgotten. Sheff once said that the information on the game's disc or memory card will not break down and stop working if you neglect to play it for a few weeks, but you better believe your relationship will dissentigrate if you neglect it for that long. Even though these very words passed his lips, it can slip his mind from time to time. Luckily, Sheff has cut back in some departments. He used to play an on-line game that had teams and guilds and weekly meetings every Sunday afternoon and all sorts of bizarre crap. Those guys were more demanding than I was! They were attempting to take over his life and monopolize his time, so he dropped it. Why? Because the real world is more important than the gaming world. And because sometimes you just want to play a different game, ya know? wink.gif

Seriously, though, this is not a fun topic to tackle. I have hated it every time I've had to tell Sheff that I miss him & I'd like us to spend more time together. I'd adore it if one day in the middle of playing his game, he thought, "Hey. I miss Rose," and he shut down the game that moment and walked over to me and proclaimed his undying love for me. Or at least offered to take me to dinner. But that hasn't happened yet. However, he's making an effort. He says that if I make plans for us (to go out dinner, see a play, whatever), he will happily join me. It's annoying that I have to plan the date, but I figure that if he spends time with me, then it'll remind him that I'm a pretty cool chick & he'll make more of an effort to spend time with me. That tends to work pretty well for us. For instance, last week I suggested we go out for dinner and a movie. He'd been sucked in by a new game for almost a week, so we really needed to get him out of the house! Well, we went and we had a good time. As a result, this week he proposed that we have our own movie marathon. We've been watching a new Harry Potter movie each night. And this weekend he invited some of our friends over to hang out. So we're doing something about it. Is it perfect? No. Afterall, he still plays the game for an hour or so after he comes home from work. But that doesn't bother me much & I see that he's making an effort so I appreciate that. If I need him to make more of an effort, I'll tell him.

One of the hardest things I had to learn about relationships was that sometimes I have to make the first step. Gawd, I wish he could read my mind. I wish he knew what I needed without me having to tell him. There are some things that seem so obvious to me and he just doesn't see them. But I've learned that there are things that seem obvious to him that I don't see. At the very least, he's got to make an effort to help me fix problems. I'm lucky in that Sheff is willing to hear me out & that we're both willing to make some compromises.


Good lord, I'm chatty today. My hormones have been all over the place this week, so I think I'll blame them. biggrin.gif
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(shinyx3 @ Jul 17 2008, 05:54 PM) *
for instance hubby came home last night from work moody. tough day. i ask about it listen to him rant, get a beer for him make him dinner, clean up dinner, ask if there is anything i can do (multiple times). he say thanks i am better. then proceeds to be grumpy at me all night long. so this morning when i am getting up and he is getting ready to go and isn't at all affectionate (no good bye, love, have a good day) i worry about what is wrong. he is probably just still stressed about work and i am likely making it worse by being over concerned.


This is a nightly situation for me. After about three days I give up. I've spent half the week trying my hardest to make him happy and once he's nice and relaxed and had a good meal, a shower and a chat what do i get? NOTHING!! i get to watch him play Call of Duty. Thanks. I think I'll go upstairs and watch a movie.


QUOTE(roseviolet @ Jul 17 2008, 07:01 PM) *
[font=Georgia]I'd adore it if one day in the middle of playing his game, he thought, "Hey. I miss Rose," and he shut down the game that moment and walked over to me and proclaimed his undying love for me. Or at least offered to take me to dinner. But that hasn't happened yet.


roseviolet - my same wishful thinking...

Opps, he remembered I'm here. Just asked if I was ready for bed. I'm off. Gotta take him when I can get him.

C-ya
Moonpieluv
oh rose... your post was very very helpful. It truly makes me feel better that there are others out there who deal with the whole gaming thing. I don't hate it entirely, as I respect the hobbies of others when they do no harm, are quite stimulating in many ways, and I dig the kitschy-ness of geekdom. laugh.gif I'm fine about it when I'm watching a movie or show.. when I'm reading...when I'm talking extensively with family.. I.E. when I'm doing something I want to do.. thing is my stuff doesn't last for hours and hours, days and days.. I would drop what I was doing to be with him. So..when does one draw the line? When do I decipher whether I'm being too needy, obsessive, or whatnot or HE is BEing obsessive, neglectful, and what not?
What's the worst of it?... I don't know how to communicate this concern with him!!! I've tried and nada. It's like I'm left with love it or leave it. My way or the highway.

What is he doing as I write this? yes, playing starwars talking on the phone with his bestest gaming buddy...like he has done well into the wee hours for the past week. StarWars is not a new game. It is a game that has replaced his obsession with Conan. If it's not one, it's another. It doesn't matter. I wish wish wish he could understand that it affects me as it does. I wish he gave a shit enough to realize his actions. The only time I "spend" with him is when I cook dinner for him, and we watch a few moments of shit tv. Then, it's off to the game again... and I'm left to clean up the mess. There have been times when we have gone to the movies...watched dvd's together...

I'm grateful that he's more affectionate and responsive to my affection then he was a few weeks into my moving in with him. He actually asked whether I knew that he rubbed on me when he came into bed late from gaming marathons. BUt...I'm still at a loss with how to communicate with him that I feel his gaming world overshadows the real world that he has with me.

I'm not here to be his scullery maid, cause I'm sure not a sex slave. I would take sex slave right now!! dry.gif

We are to go on a week vacation starting tomorrow. It's been a week since we have been intimate (but I had a heavy visitor, so...)but... I'm afraid that he won't want to be intimate until we return. That's another week I have to wait to express my love in that way. Once a month is glaringly becoming a reality. And I DO NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL!! Not only do I have to deal with this gaming shit, not knowing how to communicate my concern, not even really knowing what other things to suggest to do since he only likes to go to the movies or the bar, but... I get boom boom only when HE's in the mood. Sigh... I'm frustrated. I'm just worried as hell that everything is going to based on HIS terms. And If I make one peep about it, it will just worsen the situation.
So not fun... so so so not fun.

I just pray to the sweet baby jesus in the sky that he is going to make an effort to be more present, if you will, next week on vacation.

Pugs---I feel like you do... take what you can get. And IMO, that's just fucked up. What's going to happen when I pop a move on him tonight? sadly, that's a rhetorical question cause I already know the answer.

Poop.

I love you all busties.
roseviolet
Jesus, what a nightmare. My heart goes out to you, Moonpieluv. A line needs to be drawn, clearly. He's got to learn to compromise. I wish I knew some magic words that you could say that would get through to him, but I don't know him or his personality. Hell, I'm still learning the best ways to communicate my needs to Sheff, so I certainly can't be an expert on the other guys on the planet. wink.gif

Personally, I don't think you're being too needy or obsessive. You're not telling him to stop playing the game entirely. In fact, I bet you'd be 1000% happier if he simply cut the gaming down to 3 or 4 nights a week. Right? I think that's extremely reasonable. Sounds like this vacation is coming at a great time. It'll be a wonderful chance for him to unplug and spend some time with you. Maybe sometime during the vacay you'll find an opportunity to talk to him and work out an agreement.

Question: Is Bestest Gaming Buddy single? Does he live locally?
sybarite
(((moonpieluv))) That sounds really frustrating. My mister also disappears into his laptop, but then again so do I, and we almost never watch films together as we have quite different tastes. But these are patterns that have evolved over 3+ years of living together and we both like a lot of alone time too. I think we both feel happy knowing the other is around, in the house, even if we're not hanging out together at that moment. Your situation is disturbing you, and that's valid in itself. I hope, like RV says, the vacay will allow you two to hang out unplugged.

This line of yours stood out for me: 'This a man I may marry...so I want my ducks in a row... I really want to know what I'm dealing with here. Perhaps that's the reason for my heightened sensitivity.'
I felt the same way my first year with the mister, and our beginnings were fairytale-ish too. I was just so attuned to everything he did or said (or didn't do or say). Looking back I got a little obsessive, partly because I was between jobs, careers really, and generally felt insecure about my life at that time. The mister became the repository for all that insecurity, but also our first year was really intense, for both of us. The more you get to know about how the other works, the more you'll be able to understand each other's reactions and things will settle down, in a good way.

Going back a bit to the discussion about the comfort zone...the mister and I have been together for 7+ years, at least 3 of which were seriously up and down. Yet this year I feel we're even closer than ever... partly because we successfully weathered a year living with his teenage daughter with no disasters. We're silly affectionate with each other, we talk so well together (he's probably my favourite person to talk to), and the sex is still good. We're in a comfort zone for sure, but it's a fun one, and when we're childfree again I exect we'll have a blast.
LoveMyPugs
so I feel i must apologize to all of you. i know i've been saying how happy mr. pugs and i have been recently but i've been lying. the last three months have been the worst we've ever encountered. i'm sorry for not being honest. i constantly get from people that mr. pugs and i were too young when we met and that we only ever known each other and that someday we will have problems and so therefore i hate to admit when things aren't going well.

lately, we've done nothing but fight. the big issues have been 1) getting married 2) having children 3) him quitting his job in the future and going to school fulltime and completely changing careers. we've talked a few times but in all honesty i've never been honest with him. i always try to say what i think he wants to hear to resolve the fight for the moment. we had a big blow up in our friends bedroom at a party right before we went on vacation. we had a fight while on vacation, we had a fight the other night and just had one this morning. i have to say that i feel like i'm living with a stranger. he's been cold, unflexible and selfish. on the other hand i've been selifish and negative. i have no one to talk to about this. i used to come on to bust to discuss my problems but now he lurks. i'm sorry to dissapoint some of you but he won't be coming on to bust any longer. i need this for me. i need women i can talk to without him getting angry about what he reads.

mr. pugs doesn't really want to get married because he doesn't agree with the cost, planning and stress that comes with having a wedding. i want a wedding. i know i want a smaller wedding. i know it will cost money, take planning and be stressful but i still want it. we always said we would have a wedding and then in the last six months or so he's been trying to convince me that we don't need it. well i don't agree. i know we don't need it but i want it. it's important to me. i don't want to be an old woman and still be "dating" my fiance. i think he's just going to have to throw in the towel on this one. eventually, when we are both working fulltime jobs and happy doing what we are doing and have some money i think i'm going to start making some plans. he'll just have to deal with it.

as far as children go...well we didn't exactly resolve that. he doesn't want children now and neither do i. i however would like to have at least one, someday. now if ten years down the road he still doesn't want them then i think i could deal. if he felt strongly about it i would be willing to go along. i told him i would want him to be flexible in substituting other things in to our lives. (ex. another pug, more travel, time with friend's children, his support if i wanted to start a new hobbie like learning to play and instrument) he said that was fine. he assured me he hasn't made up his mind yet. he might change as years go by so i shouldn't resolve myself to being babyless yet. i think this is fair. we love each other very much and i don't think either of us is ready to walk away for the baby that may or may not be in our future.

as far as him changing careers i think we just weren't listening to one another. i'm very worried. i'll be the sole provider. i've never had that much responsilbity before. i'll be in a new company, new career and i don't think i'll be making what he makes now. we are hoping his mom will pay for his schooling or at least help us pay for it. we are thinking of switching to a credit union in our neighboorhood so that if we need to get student loans we can get better rates. he was going through all the pros and cons of switching careers, quitting his job to go to school fulltime, possibliy giving up bowling while unemployeed, maybe having to work a part-time job to help me pay the bills.

he wants to go for nursing and he's, of course, going through all the questions that comes with that. can i deal with the people, the hours, the icky stuff. he wasn't communicating with me about any of this. it seemed to me like one day he just came home, told me that once i graduate and get a job he's going to quit and go back to school for nursing. from automotive to nursing. well he didn't really talk to me about it. he didn't really tell me he has worries or concerns and it seemed like whenever i expressed my worries or concerns he thought i wasn't being supportive. i'm totally supportive. he can't continue to work on cars. its too hard on his body, the pay sucks for the work you do, it's terrible in the summer with the heat. i worry about him and i want him to do something different. i'm just worried about money during the transition.

so we've been having these little bickering battles the last few months about all of this shit. i think this morning it finally came out. i was trying to keep myself together. i couldn't stop crying to save my life. i was angry and hurt. i finally said to him, "Do we just need to end this? Are we growing apart?" He said he didn't know. We yelled more and both really got out a lot of our frustrations. when we were done i didn't really feel better. i learned a lot and said a lot but was still so frustrated and sad. really all i was feeling was sadness. this is the first time in a long time i've had doubts about us. so i went upstairs. a little later he followed. we apologized and then we talked. most of the conclusions we came to i already mentioned above in my explanation. so for now i think we are going to stay together. we love and need each other. i don't want to give up on us. i guess only time will tell.

sorry for making it sound like everything was peachy in Pug Land when it's not. everyone has problems right? it's nothing to be ashamed of right? if it's meant to be we'll get through it.

thanks for listening. sorry for the long post.

(((((committed busties)))))

- Love Pugs
shinyx3
Pugs, i hear you. i know it can be easy to try and make things better by saying things are better. (i really fell into that with my ex. everytime that we were perfect and in reality it was shit.) i also know that i do not like to bitch all the time about my honey so when things are not great it is easy to say they are to sorta save face. that said, i do think you two have a solid relation ship. you talk lots. and like you said "everyone has problems". you will get through this.

i am not doing great in happy marriageville either. we are on a three day fight and it just seems to be getting worse. i have been really patient and not yelled and that almost seems like it is making him madder. today he threw a huge tantrum because i moved his river guide books. (he asked me to organize them and i did) he yelled at me that i need to ask before i touch his stuff. wtf!? i feel like i am dealing with a hormonal teenager. two days ago when this started he said it was just about stress at work but didn't really seem to want to talk about it. anyway, he got really pissy and left in the car with the dogs. said he didn't know where he was going or when he would be back when i asked. i didn't get mad i just said "OK, I love you, have a nice day." he snorted and said "right, you too" so i do not even know if he is planning to come home tonight or not. i am really pretty pissed but have just not let it show. there is a big part of me that wants to not be here when he gets back but i realize that is just being like he is being and will not help in any way. i am hoping that he goes out and does something he likes, like fishing or something and that will help his mood. i guess i will see when he decided to come home.
LoveMyPugs
shinyx3 - i would be so sad if mr. pug walked out like that. i'd be sad and angry. yesterday when we had our big fight i knew i had to ask the big question. i'd been planning it for days. as soon as i was about to say it i burst into tears. i turned away from him talking to myself to get myself under control. i was telling myself i'm a strong woman and if he wants to break up after 12 years i'll get through it. i don't know how but i will. after a moment i turned around and said, "Do we need to end this? Have we grown apart?" I was so terrified to hear his reponse. I can't tell you the fear I felt. Also, sadness. Pure sadness at the thought of us parting. I still feel it so real. I could cry right here. I still feel it a bit but I'm still trying to be strong for myself. I'm 26 years old. If my relationship fails it's not the end of the world. It will just be hard...very hard. But the sadness was maddening. He just looked at the stove and said he didn't know. He was honest. i wanted him to say absolutely no way. That he loves me and we'd get through this. That he'd compromise on the to have or not have kids but how do you really compromise on that right. well, i'm not walking away yet. i'm not ending us. maybe that's wrong and i'm going to regret it someday but i love him too much. he's my best friend. i just can't walk away yet. especially, for a baby that may or may not exist someday.

well, i'm hung over from a late night. going to go get some nurishment.

good day all.
crinoline
(((((shiny)))))
(((((LMP)))))

roseviolet
((((((Shiny))))))))) Update?

(((((((LMP)))))))))
There are things I read in your posts that break my heart. I've been in similar shoes to yours before and it was so painful. So many people said harsh things & they just didn't understand. It was so very very hard. My heart goes out to you.



Someone asked me a question once that really opened my eyes and helped me gain a new perspective:
What would you do if you weren't afraid?




Did something immediately spring to mind? What was it?
kittenb
Gods, is there something in the water right now? I came in here to freak out about where my relationship is/isn't and find that I have company.

QUOTE
What would you do if you weren't afraid?


If this were the case and I knew he would tell me the truth I would ask him if he was ever going to fall in love with me. It can be so hard to be with him knowing that I love him and he likes me a lot. I want it to be enough for now. In so many ways he makes me so happy. We laugh, we talk, he gets me in a way no one ever has before. So how have we been together for 9 months and he is not in love with me?

Am I asking too much? Seriously, I am asking for advice. I love him. I am sometimes overwhelmed with loving him. But waiting for him to get there is hard! I don't want to be without him but I don't know how brave I can be.

We talked about it this morning. The entire conversation took place with us wrapped up so tight in each around each other that we could have been one skin (not to sound weird but we are always really physically affectionate w/each other) I asked him if we were okay. I've been wanting to ask this for awhile but have been too scared. He said yes, we were doing fine. Except...

The other day I told him that it would make me feel better if he would work harder to be on time when he was coming over. He listened very well and promised to work on it. I am a punctual person. I equate it with respect. Chronic lateness is like nails on a chalk board to me. In the conversation I also said that I would like to be able to see him more. There are reasons that, at this point, I won't stay at his house. This limits how much time we see each other. When we discussed it today (he has promised that I will be able to stay at his place by the end of summer), he said that he does want to be able to share his place with me but there is a part of him that is worried about giving up his time. Not that he is unwilling to do it, just that he has concerns.

I don't know. I am so tired of worrying. I have so much fun with him and I see so much future with him. But he does everything so FUCKING SLOW! 9 months for god's sake. 9 months and he still doesn't know if he will ever be in love with me?

WTF?

Why can't I just relax and go with the flow and enjoy the good? Oh, yeah. Because that is not what I do. I am an impatient, passionate person who tends to be absolute. He cares about me, treats me well and is happy with me, but he is also slow, thoughtful and kind of lazy.

I am not explaining this well. It just hurts. As much as I love him, it hurts that he isn't there (yet?) even though he has done nothing to actually hurt me.

I wish I knew what to do.

{{{moonpielove, LMP}}}

shinyx3
ok, so last night around 1am he came home reeking of a bar. i was in bed and did not say anything. just rolled away. this morning he got up early and showered and i got up with lilshiny. when he came out he said cheerily "good morning". i replied and pretty much everything has been ok-ish today. we all (hubby, myself, lilshiny and bigger shiny) went on a day river trip in the new raft. although there was tension it was not unbearable. he just gets so moody sometimes and it is hard to take. i still do not think things are really that great but this is definitely better than before.

kitten, that would make me feel hurt too. my tendency would be to want to give an ultimatum. whether or not i would actually do that is questionable. i would be too scared of the response. there are times in my relationship when i am scarred and do not feel stable and i know that for the first time in my life i would have a broken heart if he left. i used to think that made me weak and to be honest i am still not totally convinced that it doesn't but it is what it is. i commend you for being as patient as you have been. 9 months is a long time to love someone who likes you. even if he is really great to you. you have patience that i lack. good luck.
LoveMyPugs
So i thought that saturday was the end of the discussion. We both yelled, i cried, we talked. I felt a little bit better. Sunday at one point we were sitting together and I told him that I had to change myself. He asked why. I told him I had to get tougher. Again, he asked why. I told him that someday one of us might have to leave the other because we want different things. I told him I don't want to leave yet. I'm willing to give him a few more years of my life to see if he'll change his mind about kids but if he doesn't I'll have to make some hard decisions. So to prepare myself for the inevitable I'd have to "man up" and start to pull away a little. He said he didn't want that. he said he feels like he can't make me happy. he wants me to be the happiest i can be...even if that means being with someone else. i told him he's stupid. all i want is him and he seems to just be letting me go without a fight or compromise. i was crying. he started crying. well that changed everything. he never cries. he said he feels stuipd. he feels like he's not good enough for me. he's not romantic. he can't read me sexually ever. he thinks he's not smart enough. well i just feel into his arms. that hurt me so much. i love him and never, EVER want him to feel this way. i just held him and we both cried. i told him i'm not going any where. i love him, i think he's so smart and i don't care that he's not romantic. romance is overated. i don't care the we are never on the same page sexually. we come together when we can. i told him we have to get married someday. i won't date forever. he agreed. i told him we have to have one baby someday. we will be wonderful parents and i don't want him to be afraid. we'll do it together. he agreed. i told him how much i love him and i never think he is stupid or not good enough for me. i think we are a great team and are lucky to have each other. i really felt much better after that talk. he finally talked to me and shared his fears with me. i don't feel like i'm alone in this fight anymore. i have my partner back. it was like a breathe of fresh air. the rest of the day and night we were very affectionate towards one another. maybe this is a sign that better times are ahead.


roseviolet - that's a great question. if i wasn't afraid...i would still stay and fight for us. i love him too much. i'm not giving up on this relationship.

(((((kittenb)))))

nine months is a long time. he should know by now IMO. good luck.

shinyx3 - i was telling one of the young interns at work the other day (she's 21) that Mr. Pugs and I have been having problems. She said to me, "Have you ever tried giving him the silent treatment?" I had to laugh. Then she said, "Just stop doing everything. Stop cooking and cleaning. See what he thinks of that." Again, laughter. That way of thinking is so immature. So I stop cooking and cleaning in anger. Does tha tmean that Mr. Pugs can just stop paying the bills and buying us food because he's angry? No...of course not. The world doesn't stop turning because a couple is having a hard time. When I think of this I think of you. You are still trucking along. Don't let his fits of walking out and going to the bar discourage you. He just sounds moody.

kitten - I too think an ultimatum might be in order. I know you may not get the answer you want but then again you won't be wasting your time and energy anymore no matter what response you get now will you? Either he loves you and you don't have to worry anymore or he doesn't and you can move on. You take your chances either way.
beck
aw pugs it sounds like you've really been through the mill this weekend. (((pugs))) and (((mr pugs)))

i do agree with rudderless - you sound like you are confronting things and dealing with them, however difficult they are to tackle. i really admire how you are working things through. i really hope that better times are ahead for you both. hopefully this will be a bump in the road that you will look back on together a few years from now and feel good that you worked through it. but whatever your future has in store i think that you are strong and you will be fine.

hope this doesn't sound stupid

(((shiny, moonpie, kitten)))
kittenb
I don't know if it is patience of total fucking insanity. All I know is what I want and I want him.

There is an ultimatum in my head. Not one that I have told him about b/c I don't want him to feel forced to lie to me but there has to come a time when I protect myself. And it isn't an ultimatum about him saying he loves me. I can't and won't force that. He needs to say and believe that in his own time.

Is it enough that I feel loved when I am with him? Well, I guess not or I woudn't be typing this. I need to hear the words so that I know that I am what he is interested in, not that he just likes being in relationships. Well, that actually doesn't make sense. He likes being single and there is a strong independent side to him that seems to be causing some of this stress. I think he has a hard time giving into the idea that being with someone doesn't mean loosing yourself. And things have changed for the better. We talked about his procrastination and how that makes me worry. He is finally starting to do the health changes that he has been talking about doing for months.

I just think that if he said "I love you," I would worry less about other things (I could be wrong on this.) For example, we don't talk every day. I actually don't mind this. He is not good on the phone and since my job is phone based I don't always want to be on the phone. However, when I am feeling insecure I start to worry that we don't talk everyday b/c he doens't care about me.

It's like I have this bedraggled little waif inside me who is small and scrawny and pathetic but possesses a loud voice that is always yelling, "Why aren't I enough for you!!??!!" I sometimes loose track of wether the problem is just all of my insecurities?

Argh.
shinyx3
ok, i think things are pretty good now. i soooo want to talk about it but i think i need to just let this whole thing go and move on. (no my nature at all, but i am learning) we had a nice night last night and he was sweet this morning. i am feeling better about things.

Pugs, i am glad things are looking up for you. hopefully things will be good for a while before the next batch of white water. (since that is the way like seems to be, am i just cynical?)

Kitten, you are in such a tough spot. i wish i had some enlightening bit of advice but sadly all i have is pretty much drivel. insecurity sucks, i know as i am well acquainted with it myself. i don't, however, think that is the entire issue. i do not think it is unreasonable ot want to love and be loved. i wish you luck and i wish i had something insightful to add.

also, can i just say that you all rock. it is so nice to be able to come in here and complain with out being judged.
roseviolet
Some of these posts make me wonder if I've gotten old and cranky and impatient or something, because when I read the problems so many of you are facing, I can't help but get pissed off. Maybe it's the Momma Bear in me coming out. wink.gif I just want you all to be happy, you know? And it pains me to see you upset about such important things. It makes me want to fly in with a badass sword and come to your rescue! I could point the tip of my blade at the throat of the offending boy, give him a withering glare, and say, "She deserves soooooooo much better than you are offering. Stop being an asswipe and start acting like an adult, fercrissakes. Call us when you grow a pair." And then I would swoop you up and we'd come back to my house for alcohol and baked goods. Wouldn't that be lovely?

Anyway. Here's my cranky point of view on this.

Pugs, I'm glad to hear that you're feeling better. As for the marriage stuff, maybe you just need to remind the Mr. that you are engaged to be married. See, people all the time say "I'm engaged! I'm engaged!" but when they say that, they're leaving off a huge chunk of important info. You can be engaged in all sorts of activities. But you, LMP, are engaged to be married to Mr. Pugs. It makes perfectly rational sense that you would expect there to be a wedding and, oh, an actual marriage since you two are engaged to be married. Mr. Pugs should have understood this when the two of you got engaged in the first place. If he was not ready to get married, then he should never have gotten engaged to be married. By refusing to follow through with a wedding, I feel like he has lied to you - reneged on one of the biggest promises one person can make to another person - and that is SHITTY.
S
H
I
T
T
Y
!!!
And you can bring him onto Bust and let him read this because, for the love of all that is holy, he needs to understand this. Maybe once he realizes that his refusal to go through with a wedding is the same as lying to you and breaking an enormous promise to you, then perhaps he'll start to understand a little bit of the pain that you've been suffering from for all of this time.

I'm not saying you have to get married or anything. You two obviously have other issues to tackle, too. I just think he's totally out of touch with why you're hurting. He's acting like Captain Oblivious over there & the Momma Bear in me wants to smack some sense into him.

GRRRRR.



Kitten, I don't even know what to say about the boy and the L word. I can't help but wonder what his reasons are. I know when I was a teenager I had issues with saying the L word because of shit that happened to me as a kid, but I got over it. Maybe he has some childhood issues? Or maybe he had a terrible break-up in the past & he thought it was worse than it had to be because they'd uttered the L word? Or maybe a thousand other reasons? I don't know. I feel for you.

I must say, though, that there is absolutely no point in asking him if maybe he'll tell you he loves you someday. If he could predict the future like that, he could also tell you the winning lottery numbers for tomorrow. This isn't one of those things you can mark on a calendar. All he can do is tell you how he feels now. He's done that. Now all you can do is trust your gut and do what it tells you to do.
kittenb
QUOTE
I must say, though, that there is absolutely no point in asking him if maybe he'll tell you he loves you someday.


You are absolutely right.

I came to some conclusions last night and I will have to see what happens to know what I'll do. Not ready to sever the ties yet. I am having too much fun and he makes me feel too good when he is not making me insane. So far, the good times outweigh the bad so I think I am making the right choice for now.

We will see what happens in the next few months.

Pugs, ditto what RV said. I hadn't even thought of it that way. But yes, to me engaged is just a step along the way to getting married. It isn't, "I'll be engaged to you" and then have to have a whole other conversation about getting married.

shinyx, you rock, too.

Oh and RV, I really want to come over for baked goods and booze someday. laugh.gif
likeanyother
Holy ca-rap kittenb, I have been in pretty much exactly the same situation with my boyfriend. It’s hard to know what to tell you, since every boy – and girl – are different, but with my situation my boyfriend was like that for the first year or so that we were together. I don’t need to reiterate all the details, but things were very difficult for me for the same reasons things are difficult for you. When we would hang out we would have the best time together, connect in every possible way on every possible level, and when we would go our separate ways I would just revel in how in love I was. Yet days would pass without a word from him. I would get into stupid game-playing mode in which I would wait and see how long he would go until he called me. I would play it cool, then freak out on him when he didn’t react the way I wanted him to. Things were made all the more difficult for me as he was spending a lot of our time apart with other girls, who were “just friends,” but still, it was hard for me. And this went on for way longer than it would in a “normal” relationship. We were together a fucking year and it seemed like were having the problems of people who had just started dating.

Keep in mind I’m generally not a needy girlfriend. At least I never was by any normal (as in according to all previous boyfriends as well as in comparison to all my friends) standards. I like having my own time, interests, friends, life. But, if I am in a relationship, especially if I’m really in love, I want to know that it’s mutual. That I’m not wasting my time, that I’m not fucking crazy for spending so much time wondering something that he could simply tell me.

So, finally, I told him I couldn’t deal with it anymore, I loved him, but I wasn’t getting enough from him. And if I’m not getting enough with my rather low-maintenance standards, then it really isn’t much. It was then and only then, when he really realized he could lose me did he tell me the shit I needed to hear. And then things changed, for a week or two. And then they went back to how they were. And repeat. It went on like this for a while.

But then, some small changes started to last rather than relapse. He started to call me more, spend less time with other girls and more time with me, he started to be more affectionate and attentive. And then one day I realized that these subtle changes had added up to pretty much everything I was waiting for.

Granted, things still aren’t up to what I guess I'm calling normal relationshipy-ness. We don’t spend every day together. We don’t even necessarily talk everyday. He still can’t say the L word. But it’s finally, mostly, working, and it’s not just because he’s changed but because I’ve changed in some subtle ways as well. I feel more secure about our relationship. And I think he’s less afraid (he is a classic commitment-phobe) and more comfortable just being in a relationship. So I guess we both slowly but surely came together in the middle somewhere where we both finally feel comfortable.

So loooong post short, I obviously can’t say that this applies to your boyfriend as well, but I just want you to know that contrary to pop-psych opinion some guys can change. Even if it takes them a while. But while he’s changing you probably will too, and then, hopefully you can find yourselves meeting somewhere that’s mutually satisfying. Of course there are always going to be problems. Shit ain’t never as smooth as it sounds when condensed into a message board post. But, the bottom line for me is that if you know in your heart that you guys have a deep and rare connection, then it may be worth waiting for and working for. Some dudes take time (albeit too much damn time). But don’t let him push you past your limit. Let him know that things have to change for you to be happy in the relationship, and if he really cares about you, he will try to get there, eventually.

…sorry this was long and rambly, I hope for the best for you….
shinyx3
yeah! baked goods and booze!

roseviolet, you really do seem to have your head on straight. reading what you said makes such perfect sense.
kittenb
likeanyother - you just made me feel so good. Just to be clear, though, it has been months since more than one day has passed w/o either a text or a phone call between us. I am guilty of the game-playing waiting for him to call me but I also know that I don't need to talk to him everyday. Yes, I would like to be at the "Let's see each other all the time" place but we just aren't yet.

I think some of this will be different when we can both stay at each others house. And, if that doesn't happen, well that is something I will have to deal with come the end of summer. He needs to choose us over his horrible housekeeping skills.

I know that very tiny little changes are occuring. I just need to see something bigger.
LoveMyPugs
roseviolet - i don't really feel lied to. imo it's like circumstances have changed. when we first met and for many years now we've had all the normal happy hopes of getting married someday. excitement about church wedding and reception with friends and of course a honeymoon. over the years, having been to many weddings and helping with a few we just don't really care for them. when i say we i mean WE. i believe it's a sham. most weddings i've been to have cost over $15,000. i mean that is outragious. that is over ten mortgage payments. i hate dressing up. HATE DRESSING UP!! i love planning parties but i do stress at the thought of things not going right. i'm concerned about obnoxious family members i'd have to invite. i mean i have concerns, dislikes and yet i also have hopes and an inner excitement about getting married. i want my family, my friends, a cake, music, great food and i want to look nice but be comfortable. can't i do that? can't i do that and not put us in financial debt? don't i deserve what i want? is that so bad? mr. pugs totally agrees. he really does. he wants these things as well. we really do agree on this. but we have so much pressure from outside interests. my parents want ALL of the family there. i want my parents, my sister and my friends. mr. pugs wants some of his family and his friends. i think for both of us many of our friends are closer then much of our family. my mother and father are all, if you invite one you must invite all. well, yes i want my aunt mary and my grandmother. but i don't want my aunt's sister patty and her kids. i want my mom there of course but i don't want her sister and her children. but...that's all my mom has. so do i get married and not invite any of my mother's family? she'd be so hurt. ryan wants his grandmother and aunt but not his father's side. so again who comes and who doesn't? also, my mother is the root of all evil when it comes to OUR wedding. she has put us between a rock and hard place. we just can't win. if we take money from her to help we are going to have to do everything her way. if we wait till we have money to do it our way we are going to be waiting another three years probably to actually be able to save to afford any kind of wedding. by then we would have been "dating" 15 fucking years. everyone is being stubborn in this. mom wants her way or nothing at all. mr. pugs wants his way or nothing at all. i just want my way which i think will make everyone happy but no one wants to listen to me and/or let me handle it. i hate it and sometimes i feel like mr. pugs. fuck it. i don't want to get married. other times i want to elope and not tell anyone. i don't know what to do. i might never know. mr. pugs is not to blame here. it's just a sticky situation. when he says he doesn't want to get married it's because he's frustrated. he's sick and tired of discussing what we want when he feels like it will never happen and everyone be happy. i don't know what we are going to do. that's why it's such an issue. please believe me when i say it's not his fault and he hasn't "lied" to me. it's everyone else's bullshit.

as far as being engaged...i don't feel engaged. i feel married. i really do. sometimes i want to go trade in the engagement ring for a wedding band. weddings are so freaking irritating. why can't you just wave a magic wand and ta da you are married. if i knew when i got engaged all the bullshit i was going to have to discuss and all the people i was going to have to convince of what we want over the next "x" number of years I wouldn't have said yes. I wouldn't have wanted it. my girlish dreams of engagment, wedding and honeymoon have been crushed bitterly. it's sad.

sareybelle
Pugs, could you sit down with your mother and explain your concerns without either of you getting too angry? Maybe you and Mr. Pugs write down your ideal number of guests, and have an ideal list ready. If it's something she can't live with, well, that's that and you may just be on your own.

I think there are affordable ways to have a nice celebration. My best friend did it on a small budget, but they did a lot of bartering! You'd be surprised how many people are willing to do work in trade. Granted they live in a small community where everyone knows she'll ante up her side, but if you and the Mr. Pugs have any friends who are bakers, you might talk to them about getting a deal on the cake in exchange for some mechanical work.

I think there is a solution to your quandary... just keep focusing on the things that the two of you want and figure out a way to make that happen. DIY is the way to go- it requires a little more planning and work, but it's pretty rewarding. When my best friend was planning her menu, she looked long and hard at the things we could make ahead ourselves and freeze (meatballs) vs. the things that she would need some help with (spring rolls). We bought the flowers at Costco and made all the bouquets and table arrangements ourselves. When looking at venues (assuming you can't or wouldn't want to do it at home) there are sometimes parks run by non profits (Audabon Society, etc) that have very nice reception areas and the facilities rental fee can be counted as a charitable donation and deducted from your taxes. Yes, it was a lot of work, but the fact that we pulled off a really nice wedding for not that much money was amazing and the whole event ended up being much more meaningful & beautiful to me despite the fact that I was wearing spangled lavender chiffon (bought off a remainder website- CHEAP!)
roseviolet
LMP, I hope you'll forgive me for my ranting. You're putting out some conflicting signals here, which is confusing me. I can't tell if you're frustrated with Mr. Pugs or your family or the wedding industry or what (although I suspect it's all of the above).

You know what? You can have that wedding you want. Or at least most of it. You don't have to invite the whole family. You don't have to invite everyone you know. You don't have to have an ice sculpture & all of that crap. But in order to get what you want, you have to learn to say no to the things you don't want. And that is often the hardest part. In my experience, planning a wedding is a major lesson on how to say no in a polite yet firm manner. Over and over again. Luckily, I found that most people accept it very graciously. The only people who may be difficult are the people who are always difficult anyway, but even they tend to get over themselves eventually.

As for the wedding industry and all of the hopes and expectations swirling around it .... ugh. Don't get me started. I could rant about that for a loooooooong time. I'm not anti-wedding, though (well, obviously!). I'm just anti-pressure and anti-false-expectations and anti-over-the-top-cakes and on and on. I don't blame anyone one bit for any confusion & pressure that has been heaped onto them by industry &/or family expectations. Some of that is bound to seep in, no matter how strong you are. And people try to make it sound simple, but it isn't simple. Yes, it's just a piece of paper, but it's a very important piece of paper! And yes, it's just one day, but it's an important day. An yes, you could just elope, but what if you want your mom to be there? And on and on and on. Like I said, don't get me started!

Sometimes I think Sheff and I had it easy. Because of immigration fuckery, we either had to get married or break-up or stay content with seeing one another once every 4 to 6 months. We thought about it & decided we wanted to get married. When Sheff arrived in the USA, we had 90 days to tie the knot. If we had been free and easy and didn't have irritating immigration laws setting deadlines for us, I don't know what would have happened.

There's got to be a book out there about your problem, LMP, because you are DEFINITELY not alone. If there isn't a book, somebody could make a mint by writing one. It just better not have som froo-froo cover with a wedding dress or cake or some other crap on it. I would want a serious book that tackles a serious issue in a real-world manner. Enough of the tulle and place settings. We need the truth! Some of my friends and I have wished we could start a magazine called "Real Weddings" that would address these very issues. You want to learn about make-up trends and centerpieces? Read a different magazine. Ours would tackle the real issues & different couples would tell how they addressed those issues.
missladyj
LMP,
weddings have a tendency to bring out the worst in people. I highly suggest eloping, then coming back and having a reception. You can have the actual wedding you want invite only the people you really want to be there and then have a bash for everyone else. Another benefit of doing this is that you can get two outfits instead of just one dress you will only wear once. Good Luck!
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(roseviolet @ Jul 22 2008, 11:46 AM) *
LMP, You're putting out some conflicting signals here, which is confusing me. I can't tell if you're frustrated with Mr. Pugs or your family or the wedding industry or what (although I suspect it's all of the above).


you are right. I am frustrated with just about all of it. I guess that's probably the real reason we aren't married yet. No one, including myself can make up their minds.

beck
i was going to suggest something similar to missladyj - having a small private religious or civil ceremony with just a small handful of family, and then a party after the event (not necessarily on the same day even). i think i might do that - having a religious ceremony is important to me so i don't want to just go to the town hall and sign on the line, but i don't want the wedding music, going down the aisle, big white dress, bridesmaids, people reading poems above love, and all that shit - i would like to say my vows in a quiet and private way in front of a priest, and then celebrate with our friends afterwards. i know if we have a church full of everyone we know i will be way too nervous to enjoy it at all and will feel self-conscious and just want it to be over.

much easier to keep it small, keep family money out of it, and avoid the arguments. like, instead of wedding presents (let's face it, you probably have enough pots and pans already after being together 12 years), could you get all your friends to bring a bottle to the party?

oh and kitten, i meant to say, me and my bf were way out of synch on the l-word, i think i just had a lower threshold for saying it, whereas it was a first for him i think. i'm pretty sure it was more than 8 months in, and he didn't tell his family about me for about a year! i think every 'milestone' (the l word, moving in, family stuff, the baby), i have generally been ready for a little sooner than him, but that's fine. i think i am just a bit of a planner, and i tend to do things first and think later, whereas he will think about stuff for longer, but then be 100% committed when he decides. for me, i had to accept that and go by how i felt and by his actions rather than getting too hung up on the words/plans.

kittenb
Having never been married not engaged, take my opinions for whatever they are worth. However, it seems that there is a confusion between having a wedding and being married.

Pugs, I feel that you want to be married but are not sure how to get through the planning phase of having a wedding. Have you and the Mr. talked about what marriage means to you as opposed to the wedding? What are you hoping for when you are married? I think there will be a difference b/w how things feel actually being married as opposed to right now. Everyone I've ever heard from who has gotten married says it is different.
Good luck.

Thanks Beck. smile.gif
sareybelle
QUOTE(roseviolet @ Jul 22 2008, 11:46 AM) *
Some of my friends and I have wished we could start a magazine called "Real Weddings" that would address these very issues. You want to learn about make-up trends and centerpieces? Read a different magazine. Ours would tackle the real issues & different couples would tell how they addressed those issues.


I wonder if BUST has ever done a wedding issue? Maybe they'd think it was cheesy, but I'd bet it would be helpful to a lot of readers who vomit at the sight of MODERN CHATTEL or whatever our other options are. It'd be nice to have information about how to have a nice normal wedding. I remember when my best friend got married we smoked a joint and flipped through a mainstream mag laughing and pointing, "ick. ick. prom hair. ick. 'Western Wear' Barbie. nice tiara. that's okay. no. no. WHAT? no. gross. looks like a Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader in a toga. Wrong. No... not bad actually." But they weigh 1,000 lbs and are full of crappy adverstisements. There should be a saner alternative.

If the guy I've been dating for five minutes and I were to eventually get married, I'm sure that one constraint would be that we'd want it to be more or less environmentally low impact, and probably involve as many local and socially progressive businesses as possible because that's more or less how we roll. That could be expensive, but I'd prefer the size be limited than the conciousness. The other thing I'd want is live music- luckily I'm in a band so I can harrangue them into doing it. I do know I do not want an engagement ring which is lucky for me because I doubt I'll ever marry anyone who would insist on it. Just don't have enough money to justify it and I'm sure whoever the "lucky" guy is wouldn't either. They look nice, but my mother never had one, and she's been married for 35 years, so I figure they can't matter all that much in the long run.

Sorry it sounds like many people are having tough times this week. The man and I just hit our first speed bump and it wasn't that bad. He got a bit jealous of my (male) best friend a few weeks back just when I spent an evening out with him, but he was totally mature about it. He told me his head was filled with terrible thoughts but he knew they were irrational. I was glad he told me though. And then this weekend I got a little irritated when his (female) best friend who he used to date was leaning against him at a bar. I let it stew for about 24 hours, but when I realized I was still curious I sat down with him and said, "I need to talk to you about something, but I promise it's not terrible, and I'm not angry or mad at you. I know that you and _______ dated a long time ago, but the only details you've given me is that 'it didn't work out.' I was fine with that, we're all adults and have complicated histories with people, but I did notice the other day she leaned up against you while talking, and I have to admit I didn't like it very much. I don't feel like there was anything going on, and she was just probably drunk and acting out a bit, but I didn't think it was very considerate, and if she likes me as much as she says she does and does want things to work out, well, I wish she wouldn't do that. I know some people are more affectionate than others, but I'm not touchy with my male friends and I guess it just made me uncomfortable."

And then he was really awesome about it, and in five minutes I felt better and was so glad to have brought it up because he didn't get defensive or upset and we just worked it out. He told me he noticed when she was doing that too, and was weirded out and shifted away. I didn't notice because I turned my back so I wouldn't have to look at it and get more upset, and just focused on my other friends. (Why bother with drunk trifling people is my attitude? It's not my job to push a woman's hand off his leg, it's his. Sure enough he was standing next to me a minute later so sounds like he did.)

He said he wasn't sure why she was doing it, but that he had noticed it and was upset that a) she did it and cool.gif that it bothered me. Maybe she's just being a little territorial, but I was glad I brought it up without being sulky or a jerk because he was receptive and said he'd be more firm if something like that happened again. So all is well.

Who knows if we are just being on extra good behavior now because it's the beginning, but if things stay like that I could be around for a while.


LoveMyPugs
Kitten -

I'm tired of being Mr. Pug's "girlfriend". I've been with him longer then most people have been married. We've been through so much together and yet it's dismissed because we aren't "married" I hate it. One of my teachers asked if we set a date. I told him we aren't getting married until I'm done school. He said, "Oh, well then you are just dating." No!! We aren't just dating. We aren't going to dinner and a movie and then hopefully he calls the next day. That is dating. We live together, we own a home together, we have a joint checking account together. We plan to stay together forever but that doesn't count. In the eyes of society we are just DATING!!! GOD I HATE THE WORD DATING!! I HATE IT!! We are more stable then most of the married people I know. I love him more then anything else in the world. I guess, honestly, I don't want anything to change except my last name so that everyone will BACK THE FUCK OFF!! I want my relationship to count in everyone else's eyes. I know this is a stupid reason to want to get married right? I know it is. Mr. Pugs tells me all the time. What does it matter what everyone else thinks? Well, that's just fine. He doesn't have to hear it from everyone else. No one questions a guy living with a girl and not being married. Everyone questions a girl who's living with a guy and not married. The engagment ring just made it worse. Everyone time someone says, "So how long have you two been together." We reply that it's been 12 years. The first thing they say is, "When are you getting married?" Whenever our annoying married friends fight they come back with, "You'll understand when your married." I feel like I'm locked out of some special club or something. I hate it. I HATE IT!!

I HATE IT!!

I know how bad this sounds. We should just do what we want. I know. We don't need to please society but I'm tired of having to justify my choices to everyone else. Sometimes I just want to be a sheep in the herd.

That's terrible. I'm leaving now. I sound like a child. I sound stupid. I'm done.
roseviolet
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jul 22 2008, 02:16 PM) *
I HATE IT!!

I know how bad this sounds. We should just do what we want. I know. We don't need to please society but I'm tired of having to justify my choices to everyone else. Sometimes I just want to be a sheep in the herd.

That's terrible. I'm leaving now. I sound like a child. I sound stupid. I'm done.


No, you don't sound like a child! And you don't sound stupid! Honest! You sound like a person who is really frustrated and needs to get it out. And for a damned good reason, too! We're here for you, LMP. For all the venting and everything. So let it out as much as you need to whenever you need to!

When I was reading one of your posts earlier, I couldn't help but think of the irritating questions you must get asked by other people. It's bad enough before you get engaged, but once you cross that line and open Pandora's box, it gets so much worse.
Whenareyougonnagetmarried?whenareyougonnagetmarried?whenareyougonnagetmarried?
UGH!!!
As if this is anyone's business, you know?

But that doesn't mean it's wrong to want what you want. Hell, I wanted it, too. I wanted to exchange vows, professing our love and commitment. I wanted our family members to witness that because family means a lot to me. I know on one level it seems like a silly, pointless tradition, but it wasn't silly to me. It isn't pointless to me. It's extremely important. You know what I'm saying, right? Am I making sense? Because I don't think you are a sheep for wanting these things. You really aren't.

Ah, the conflicting feelings of the modern, educated, feminist bride. Sucks ass.

Maybe it'll help for you to hear ths story of my very best friend.
My best friend (Best Gal Pal) got married to her boyfriend (Best Guy Pal) when they'd been together for 13 years. They eloped 3 & 1/2 years ago. Neither one of them feels comfortable with the words "wife" and "husband" and "spouse" so they still call eachother boyfriend and girlfriend or "person" (as in "This is my person, Bob". It's cute when you hear them say it). Best Gal Pal says things don't feel very different now that they're married. Like you two, they've lived together forever & they'd owned property together before (they even owned a business together). Everybody already accepted that they were together forever & all that jazz. But they were getting older & they saw all of the legal and financial benefits of being married. So they did it. There was a little more to than that, of course. They really do love eachother, but they said the reason why they went ahead and did it was for legal reasons. Honestly, though, I think they just weren't ready for it until then. I don't want to air their relationship history here, but there was a definite change in the 2 years before they got married. I can't quite put my finger on it, but somehow they matured & realized that they wanted to really commit themselves. If they'd married earlier it wouldn't have worked out. Because they waited, it was great.

So taking your time can be a sign of great wisdom. Or it can be frustrating as all hell. Or both, depending on your mood. wink.gif

By the by, the Best Pals kinda-sorta eloped. Basically, it was a surprise wedding that took place at a new years party. the clock struck midnight, a friend of ours (who happens to be ordained to do weddings) asked everyone to gather around, and they took their vows right then & there. They didn't even tell anyone they were going to do it. Best Gal Pal knew that if they'd planned anything & people found out ahead of time, then they'd pester her with questions about all of the details & give her 1000 different opinions & it would stress her out so much that she'd cancel the whole thing & head for the hills! She didn't want other people's influence to keep her from having a marriage, though, so they had a surpsie wedding/elopement/thingamy. Fun and economical! smile.gif
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