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snafooey
i dunno, call me old-fashioned, but i like my sex with a big ole side of LOVE.

. . .sounds suspiciously like "i dunno, call me old-fashioned, but why would a man want to have anal sex with another man when there are so many functioning vaginas around?"

I'm not really into S&M either, but from what I know about it (and about people I know who are involved in that scene), it's probably one of the healtheir, "cleaner" types of sex out there, in part because - alluding to what faerietails mentioned - there's not as much room for bullshit. People know what they want and they go about it in a safe and satisfying way. Ironically, there's generally less mindfuckery and headgames involved than "vanilla" sex, and often the couples partaking are in love and committed to each other - often they're just in it for kicks, but that pretty much applies to all types of sex, no?

It's not an issue of "Oh, you can't criticize S&M because that's not politically correct." It's more like I don't think people really get what it means when it doesn't do anything personally for them. I mean, if a person can't get off on "regular" sex, should they try to deprogram their S&M tendencies until they can? Are you saying that if they just went to therapy and learned to love themselves they wouldn't be into it anymore? B/c again, it's not really that cut and dry; there are so many factors, so many triggers, so many details that make up a person's sexual being. As far as I can see, self-love, esteem and confidence aren't necessarily indicators of the type of sex that gets a person off.
wombat
Well, *I* am not saying S&M is necessarily "sad and unhealthy" but I *AM* saying that I don't need some self-righteous screed preached at me that "there are safe words you know!" YES.... I KNOW.

"It's just another preference and you're being narrow and prissy and slut-calling! Don't you underSTAND that some people get off on pain, and it's just like being AGAINST homosexuality!!!!!!! GASP!!!"

No, I'm NOT narrowminded, yes I have read all the books and articles about nouveau S&M coming out of the closet, by graduate school feminists, that you have, and MORE, snafooey -- erin -- um, thanks for the enlightenment. mmm hm.

IN SOME WAYS, at SOME TIMES, S&M, and, in fact, sex in general, is used in a negative and destructive way towards oneself and others. TRUE??

YES!!!!!

Yes, I can critique, analyze, choose and speak. Yes, I can. Yes, it is true that there is such a thing as a borderline mentally ill person called a sociopath that uses sex and pain to hurt others. There is also such a thing as a sociopath that does not rape/torture others but still uses sex to hurt others and to gain an advantage. That behavior IS WORTHY of criticism.

Thanks for coming in and preaching the party line, and assuming we are all just dolts, snafooey.

Way to go! CRUSH the conversation. With Sophomore in college self-righteous Feminist of the 90s 101 syllabus.

Never ever criticise any aspect of sex or else you don't know about sex, you don't have a good sex life, you're just politically uncorrect, and you're anti-gay! Of course!!!

Silence!
greenbean
I've been lurking here and I'd just like to pipe in and say that *I* am into being dominated and like a little pain during sex. Makes me feel like a cat-- mee-yow!! I just want to say that its actually a very loving act to give a partner what she wants, and I'm sad that S/M has been given a bad rap. True, there are nasty pornos out there that make S/M all about whips, chains and defacation, but I think the majority of people into this type of sexuallity do it because they honestly enjoy it, and most of them are in loving relationships.

I don't think that loving sex equals vanilla sex. I don't think what I like is sad and unhealthy. Kinky, maybe, but dont feel sorry for me!

A sociopath that uses sex to hurt others is a whole nuther ball of wax! S/M, D/d and so on is all about BOTH parties WANTING these roles. Agreement, consensual control/surrendering, etc. is key.

snafooey
Wombat, as usual, you've completely missed my point.

And frankly, you don't know what I've read and have not read, so please don't presume to know more or less than I do.

My point is simply that I don't see how S&M is any more destructive than any other kind of sex, especially because I've seen just as much fucked up shit happen in just about every other relationship/scenario, including tradtional, domestic ones.

How was I crushing the coversation any more than you trying to shut me down by essentially calling my attitude the feminist equivalent of provincial?

In fact, you actually made my point for me, surprisingly enough:

IN SOME WAYS, at SOME TIMES, S&M, and, in fact, sex in general, is used in a negative and destructive way towards oneself and others. TRUE??

[boldface added]

Exactly.

But yeah, go off another long-winded, self-righteous rant in which you accuse others of being self-righteous.

B/c it's not like you haven't shut down dozens of threads through sheer self-involved monopolization alone.
erinjane
Wow, wombat, that was really unnecessary. No one attacked your viewpoints, we both just shared ours, as you and others were doing. No one said any of things you seem to think we were implying in your last post either, and by no way is that what I meant by my post.
And since we weren't talking about sociopathic behaviour or rapists I don't see how it falls into the discussion. I wasn't trying to enlighten you, I was simply giving my opinion. Weren't you just discussing how it feels when you feel like you can't give your opinion without someone jumping down your throat?

There's no need to turn an otherwise rational discussion into a name-calling arguement. I respect other people's opinions and usually I keep my mouth shut on things like this, but not when i feel personally attacked and not when they're thrown at me in such a patrionizing way as yours are.

/rant.

And to maddy, just a note, i really like reading your posts and I keep wanting to make a good long one in reply. It's a really interesting process when you're examing things that make you uncomfortable.
wombat
Sorry, ErinJane.

I know what my problem is. I fight stubbornly about things I don't really care about.

True story.

Sorry if I was being personally vituperative, but, Snaf, it seems that we were talking about how we have thoughts and feelings about sex that are not the "party line" and it's hard to talk about them, and boom! you marched right in with the party line.

I mean, think about it -- how arrogant is it to call non-S&M sex "vanilla" ?

All someone has to do is publish essays claiming that they are misunderstood, and the truly hip person will approve of them, and it turns into total emporer-without-clothes land.

Shut down threads. Gaw. Can't think of any. Long, self-invoved posts? Sometimes. I'm not the only one guilty of that, though. I do think it's wrong of me and try to restrain it, and, many times -- most times, don't do it, but, ya know what?

Right back there: We were talking about how we can't talk about our cavils honestly because someone will come down with the party line, and you came down with the party line.
faerietails
QUOTE
Well, *I* am not saying S&M is necessarily "sad and unhealthy" but I *AM* saying that I don't need some self-righteous screed preached at me that "there are safe words you know!" YES.... I KNOW.
Ugh, really...my mention of safe words is one of the least self-righteous things I've read in here. I'm sorry, I know I'm jumping back into this conversation a little late in the game, but wombat, you always do this. Chill out! People aren't here just to attack your opinions.

QUOTE
In fact, you actually made my point for me, surprisingly enough:

IN SOME WAYS, at SOME TIMES, S&M, and, in fact, sex in general, is used in a negative and destructive way towards oneself and others. TRUE??

[boldface added]
snaf, you took the words right out of my mouth.
lilyblue
isn't saying that sex must only be about love also the other party line? i find ideas like this just as oppressive.

the idea that S&M does not involve love seems to be more projection than anything else. what is frustrating is that someone is presuming to know why i or anyone else gets off on what we get off on. we really can't know the truth unless someone tells us.
maddy29
Hey folks. A few things, quickly. First of all, when I said that I like my sex with a big side of love, that was me stating a personal preference. I have NO idea how that could have possibly been construed as me saying there was something wrong with men having sex with men.

Next, I hear what people are saying about s/m. Of course everyone can do whatever they want-consenting adults, yadda yadda. I'm just stating my personal thoughts and feelings.

I don't think "liking a little pain during sex" is the same as S and m. Also, yeah, i know there are safety words, and that's good and stuff. But wanting to hurt another person and thinking you deserve to be hurt, yeah, to me that's sad. Not sad as in "pathetic" sad as in, makes me feel sad for those people. I think there's something wrong with someone who wants to hurt their partner, or who wants to be hurt and told they are bad, etc.

this quote "Plus, there are all kinds of "safeties" in place to ensure that people partaking in it don't get hurt " makes no sense to me-the whole point of s/m is to hurt someone, and to be hurt. THe very words sadism and masochism mean that there is pain going on. HOw is it healthy to get off on hurting someone else? I mean, if you're talking about having a roughish sex, or a little biting or something, that's not S/M.

I do think it sucks that sex with love is somehow denigrated by calling it "vanilla" as if there's something wrong with it. At the same time, I'm doing the same thing with S/M. BUT, I never said that sex must always be about love. NEVER said it-again, I was stating my OWN personal preferences. I Don't think it's bad or wrong in any way to have sex with someone you don't love. Sometimes sex is just sex, no biggie.

None of this is so simple and cut and dried. I'm finding out a lot about myself during this process, and have had several awesome conversations with the boy.



oh also, i think there are lots of unhealthy ways to have sex, not just s/m. and it varies for different people-one of my friends was having a lot of one night stands, it was fine for her. my other friend was doing it and it was more out of a compulsion and need for approval, and it wasn't healthy for her. so i get that something that might be ok for one person is not ok for the next.

i know i have more to say about s/m, it's good that people are writing about it, because that means i get to learn more!
falljackets
just a quick comment:

in my mind and experience, s&m isn't necessarily about hurting your partner. for me, it's more about transferring power, allowing my partner to control me in the confines of the act.

i have to admit that i take issue with the comment about feeling sad for people that are into it. but at the same time, i understand that it's difficult for people to understand the draw of s&m simply because they're not turned on by it (someone down there said that, but i can't remember who).

*relurks*
maddy29
maybe i'm confused, but isn't pain the main thing in s/m? i mean, that's where it got its name-that's what sadism and masochism mean.
greenbean
First of all, I dont mean to insult anyone who likes vanilla sex by calling it that, I just dont know what else to call it! And I wasn't at all saying loving sex is vanilla, I meant just the opposite: that I dont think loving sex HAS to equal vanilla, that it can be many things, s/m included. Does that make better sense? Maybe another way to put it is if my partner and I love each other but neither of us like vanilla sex, then is there something wrong with us? Some of you say 'yes', and thats fine because I'm happy this way. It took me a long time to come in to my sexuallity and what makes me happy, and I was scared that maybe I was a bad feminist because my desire to be dominated by a man,..but after so many unsatisfying encounters with weak, groveling boys, I really know what I want now and and not hurt by anyone who disapproves smile.gif

Thanks falljackets for your comment, I feel that way too. What you are refering to though is what some folks would call dominance/submission, and S/M falls into that catagory. Transfer of power is the key ingredient. I think that the big reason that I and many women today enjoy giving away their power in bed is because we have to be superwomen in our everyday lives, taking on traditional women's AND men's roles. As a feminist I am glad that women today can have freedom and independence and power of great significance,..but if a strong, smart woman wants to surrender all that well earned power during sex, does that make her pathetic? My opinion is no.

Yes, Maddy, technically s/m does involve physical pain, but since the BDSM community is so broad everything kind of gets muddled up and starts to seem to mean the same thing. Its sounds like your definition of s/m is the very hardcore, fetish version, which I think is only practiced by a minority in the spectrum. I do have opinions on why some people are sadists and others masochists, which I could share if you'd like, but I'm not an expert. All I know is if consenting adults are happy that way I'm not gonna interfere. We can use as many happy people on earth as we can get. smile.gif
maddy29
yeah, i guess i just feel like wanting your love to be aggressive, or ravish you or whatever, isn't S/M. AGain, it seems there aren't enough words to be specific about what we're talking about. i'm talking about s/m in the strictest sense, which involves pain.

what do you and falljackets mean when you say "dominated by a man" or transferring power? I mean, give me a picture of what that looks like. Cause I don't think that's at all what i'm talking about, but I don't know what you guys are thinking of.
wombat
The partcular discussion in this thread was about: Oh, yay, we have a place to talk about what we find negative about some depictions and uses of sex without people accusing us of being unfeminist and narrow about sex.

And then, in it comes: people sticking up for S&M and B&D and saying we don't understand it, and that we are being narrow-minded on the order of gay-bashing SNAFOOEY.

I am not saying that I don't know about BDSM (surprise! I do!)
I am not saying I have never done BDSM (suprise! I have!)

I'm finding it distressing that Maddy29 and I were having a nuanced, sophisticated discussion that was partly about her healing from fo'real -- not for play -- sexual abuse in her background, and people -- even though I like you, greenbean and all -- have to rush in and say, Never never never say anything bad about BDSM!!

You are telling her she has no right to her feelings and thoughts and opinions, just to serve your personal/political/sexual agenda.

NOT very feminist or sex-positive of you. Can we please get away from ALL MUST APPROVE OF ALL BDSM AT ALL TIMES.

lilyblue
maddy, i think with regards to the pain, it's about the intense sensations that someone wishes to feel. a release of adrenaline if you will. (i am speaking as someone who has never done it, but would like to.)

a lot of it is role play so that people can experience things that don't happen in their everyday life.

i have to thank you for asking the questions because i know for me i am learning a lot from them.

erinjane
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Dec 3 2006, 03:44 PM) *

yeah, i guess i just feel like wanting your love to be aggressive, or ravish you or whatever, isn't S/M. AGain, it seems there aren't enough words to be specific about what we're talking about. i'm talking about s/m in the strictest sense, which involves pain.

what do you and falljackets mean when you say "dominated by a man" or transferring power? I mean, give me a picture of what that looks like. Cause I don't think that's at all what i'm talking about, but I don't know what you guys are thinking of.


I agree about not being enough words. I think we had this problem earlier when talking about the definition of hardcore. It's hard when everyone conjures up this different image.

And because I don't have a lot of knowledge on s&m, I thought people would find this entry interesting by cherrybombnyc. I've been following her blog for over a year now and it's really enlightening, but this entry was especially so:

QUOTE

When people, academics and civilians alike, discuss sex work, emphasis is always placed heavily on the issue of choice. People like to try and posit choice as the defining element of sex work…as in: coerced/forced sex work is bad, sex work as a chosen career is good/liberated.
...
Since quitting my job at the store, I am broke. I have long since spent through my laughably small rainy day fund, and there is nothing else for me to fall back on.
...
As far as choice, I don’t feel like I have much. I can chose to be miserable spending a night interacting with strange and sometimes disgusting men, or I can chose to be miserable counting out change for containers of baby food for dinner. Lesser of two evils, I guess. But the truth of the matter is, if I am choosing sex work in that context, desperation becomes the driving force. Not choice.
...
I’m lucky…I have a college degree and friends who will not allow me to starve in the streets. Those two factors alone put me at a major advantage and give me some leeway when it comes to trying to negotiate my own future...

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=14...340300245515068

She had also been working at a sex shop until relatively recently when she was held up. I don't think this post tells me anything I didn't know, but her last paragraph just reaffirms for me the need for organizations like COYOTE, and new laws for sex workers, and of course poverty reforms, etc. It ain't going anywhere, so it might as well be as safe as possible for those who do it.
wombat
I really feel distressed about the descent into ... well, unpleasantness in discussing it.

I think the key factor may be "play"

People deciding they really like to play in that way -- cool, and it stinks that some people would condemn them -- it's just, there are some types of coercive sex that don't fit into play category.

And, there is the continuing problem of women and girls doing sexual things that they don't really feel good about doing. That's not anybody else's call -- but hers.
lilyblue
wombat, i agree with you on that. and that's part of the problem, we can't really know.

i do think that criticism is healthy and necessary, it's just the way that it's done that makes me get a bit defensive. sometimes the statements from both sides are incredibly broad and make everything black and white when we all know that there are shades of grey.

i won't say that all porn is bad, but i will question the way certain things are marketed. just this week i found out that 30 is apparently "old" and has become a fetish. i also realized that there is a whole black man/white girl fetish that really pisses me off.

wombat, what types of coercive sex are you referring to? (i'm asking in all seriousness)
wombat
There's not a lot of talking about sex that is not out and out rape but is not really a woman's happy ideal (slightly sarcastic wording there!) either.

Finding a space between "slut-calling" and the reality that I'm happy not to live in the "desperation becomes the driving force. Not choice." that erinjane quoted.

And thinking about how to regain good feelings about sexuality after using it in a harmful way...

There's actually a similar discussion in Celebrity Gossip, of all places.

Girls figuring they can get guys approval by making out with a girl, NOT making out with a girl because they want to, not feeling attracted as much as wanting to manipulate. Girls and women are often told that they shouldn't really care about that borderline sort of abuse. No big deal!

Yet, you know, David Bowie -- not even a girl -- slept around to benefit his career and says it was a major factor in his later depressive breakdown.
lilyblue
yeah, i totally get that. it relates to two videos that i have seen and felt really grossed out by.

one was a girl masturbating with was fine until she shoved a baseball bat up her ass. i was wondering how much of this was really her sexuality and how much was making a scene that guys would jack off to.

the other was a "lesbian bukkake" which shocked me because it just seemed so heartless. it looked more like humiliation than liberation. and it wasn't any big name stars in these movies.

i would love to speak to women in these movies and ask them what made them want to do porn. i would really like to hear their stories as someone who would not be into having sex on film, what motivates them.

i think that for some girls, it is plain exhibitionism and for others it is a lack of choice. maybe trying to make a name for themselves in other industries. it's a mixed ball of all these things.
snafooey
I don't really have time right now to address all the points that have been made - I'll come back later.

I would like to say that I realize my earlier word choice was poor - I did not mean that being anti-BDSM was tantamount to being anti-gay. I was thinking more in terms of a scene I saw in Trembling Before G-d - a film about Ultra-Orthodox Jewish homosexuals. It's been awhile since I saw it, but I recall that involved a gay man speaking to a very old, very pious Hasidic rabbi about the very nature of homosexuality. The rabbi - very kindly but very cluelessly - was all, "But why wouldn't you want to sleep with a woman?" (or something to that effect) and the man responded, "Why wouldn't you want to sleep with a man?" And then, as though a light bulb went off, the rabbi was all, "Ohhhh." He didn't change his mind on the issue (a sin is a sin is a sin), but he got that trying to get someone gay to want to have straight sex was like trying to get someone straight to want to have gay sex - seems like a basic enough concept, but . . .I think he then went on to explain to him some of the basics of gay sex (and any sex that isn't straight intercourse). Very worth watching, btw. . .but I digress. smile.gif

Anyway, my point is that I just meant that if you don't "get" BDSM (and again, I'm not saying I necessarily do), it might be hard to wrap your head around the idea that people who are into it might feel just as sorry for those who "only" engage in "vanilla" sex as you do for them.


If it's not something you're in any way interested, you're not going to get that for someone who is into it, your way of having sex may seem completely foreign, strange, and in some cases, even creepy.

I don't use the term vanilla pejoratively - I was just employing commonly used terminology. As someone who is not really into S&M but doesn't necessarily think of her own sexual tastes as ordinary or boring, I'm not offended by it - I didn't realize that using it was such a hot button issue.

As for assuming that certain posters were being condescending in pointing out stuff like safety words, etc., the response seems to indicate that it might not actually be common knowledge for everyone. . .so why not discuss it?

And I agree that the general party line (despite how S&M lite/chic is used in pop culture) is more "Ooh, that's creepy" than "Yeah, everyone should do what they want regardless of whether it turns me on" so I'm not sure how criticizing S&M (especially since very few people currently involved in this discussion actually seem to be involved in the scene) is such a radical idea. It's like when comedians say they're just being "politically incorrect" and not towing the party line when the reality is that they're just spouting the same old racist bullshit that everyone's heard before (just to clarify - no, I'm not suggesting that being anti-BDSM is tantamount to being a racist).

And finally, Wombat, you'd be a lot easier to take seriously if you didn't freak out AND START WRITING IN CAPS ALL OVER THE PLACE every time someone offends your delicate sensibilities. It seems that you can dish it, but you can't take it. Truth be told, I wasn't really responding to your post at all, so I found it interesting that you automatically assumed I was referring to you. Narcissistic much?
greenbean
Whew! I cant help but giggle at all this, cuz there seems to be so much misunderstanding doing on!
Wombat, two things: I find it amusing how both of us are fearing that the feminist community doesnt accept us. In my case I am hesitant to talk about enjoying sexual submission, while you are saying that you feel stiffled about criticizing it! I find it refreshing that really there is no 'feminist law' regarding this. I think (hope) we are both welcome under the tent.

Also, you may have noticed my comments in Celebrity Gossip. To turn a lot of grey into black and white, the bottom line for me is that girls/women should be true to themselves, and not conform to a sexual ideal that is a lie or performance. Furthermore, I did not originally post in order to tell Maddy "Never never never say anything bad about BDSM!!", I simply wanted to inform her, (since she has said she is interested) that it does make some of us happy.

Segway into comment to Maddy....the more you post the more I think that your idea of s/m is very. verryy depraved and practically fictional. I am part of another online community that defines itself as female subs, but really, nobody on there wants the shit beat outta them or to be empaled by a baseball bat etc. That stuff is pretty much only in hardcore porn or in extremely small fetish communities. The more popular version/pleasure is basically about discipline/obedience, spanking and torment...which you may shrug off as 'light' but really, its sooo hard to find the right partner for this play! Most guys are too shy or lazy/impatient.

I guess its important to add that the term 's/m' is in reference to a sexual preference or role. TRUE sadists dont identify with this stuff. True sadists are sociopaths that have no compassion or need for consent from their partner. When we say s/m its in the sense that this is a consensual act or lifestyle, not a rapist asshat hell-bent on causing pain. I hope the difference is understood.
wombat
Hi, Snafooey, I appreciate your coming back to post, and, generally, appreciate your leftist point of view (most of which I share). I didn't take so much that your post ws directed towarrd me as much as I was thinking that it was the very narrowing of discussion and misapprehension that I had feared, it peeved me because it is a distraction, so, peeviness gets Caps sometimes, but, I respect you, I do. smile.gif

I get ya, greenbean, I like that kind of stuff too, my boyfiriend and I can swap that back and forth actually -- or else just have sex smile.gif

It IS work, and I don't always feel like I need it.

I find it interesting that women who dom and get paid for it will say that they are "getting their self-respect as women back!" To me, that's bogus, because:

1) Big secret: the submissive is the one that is the recipient of all the sex action smile.gif ! And directing it to what pleases THEM, by having a previous discussion of scenario and limits. Which is why so many powerful men in industry, blah blah, pay for it.

2) They're still doing what he wants and getting him off, getting paid to do that to someone they're not attracted to, and not getting off themselves!

There's a (related) bogus feel to many sex-sociopath's screeds. Some are not sadistic physical rapist/torturers but instead are people who are cold inside and use sex to manipulate people, because they figure they are already sexually traumatized, it's hard to make it go away, and they may as well do things that make other people intimidated on some level -- and then use that to profit. They'll wallow in the same old squick out feelings, but feel they are having their revenge, and then cover up with a bunch of big smiles and claims of being so hot and so in control.

Related thing: Women who were sexually abused as children (one of my friends in high school) turning it around and taking it out on women. Maybe they have to put up with men scamming on them all the time, but they will then turn and blast their sexuality onto women, "weaker" don't you know? I also saw this in early Guns and Roses lyrics, where Axl was talking about women "paying" sexually to get iinto showbiz, I thought as I heard that, "well, that must have happened to him, too" Came out later that it did. But what was cool about him is that he talked about that publicly and actually has some interesting/kind/liberal things to say about sex and sex abuse and porn.

Also, it's almost a truism that strippers save their "real sex" for women.

At what point does women dumping their sexual baggage on other women become "just a HOTT bisexual" and acceptable?

(I'm not talking about women who swing from men to women in a more random, unplaned, "just cuase I like it" manner)
maddy29
hm, this is interesting. when i'm talking about s/m, i'm talking about being humiliated, being tied up and "hurt", being told you are bad, a whore, a bad girl, etc. i'm thinking of domanatrixes, guys wearing adult diapers, women who are "subs" to some asshole guy, etc.

i'm not talking about handcuffs and a little biting, ya know? i guess maybe the difference for me is in the intent. cause you can be tied up and "tormented" with pleasure or whatever, and have the guy be in control, but not have it be scary or painful. i think that's what you are saying?

i certainly understand that pain can release chemicals that feel good, and all that stuff. that's the part i think is unhealthy and sad. partly because i used to have a connection between pleasure and pain, and i decided that i didn't want my sexuality to be about pain or humiliation, and i had to consciously work to unlink those neural pathways, or whatever. it was hard work, but i'm sooo much healthier sexually now.

I guess I understand S/M in certain ways-i can see how it can be nice to "give up power" and just let someone else take over, but why is this considered s/m? i mean, i do that with my boyfriend sometimes, i just want to be "ravished" which means i want him to be more aggressive and just go with it and do whatever he wants. (with the understanding of course, that he'll stop if i don't like something...)

i mean, greenbean, i still don't get what you are talking about being a female sub-what does that even MEAN? is it like light spankings and "oh what a bad little girl ,hee hee?" i don't mean to put you on the spot (or FJ) but i really want to know what specific things you do that you consider to be s/m. and also, why you call it s/m. obviously i have some learnin' to do smile.gif

when i say sad and unhealthy, i'm talking about the people who are doing the pain stuff, i'm talking about a person who can't get off without being hurt. it's just like self injury-sure, it feels "good" to self-injure, and it releases some lovely chemicals, but is it healthy to cut yourself? no! is it healthy to want to be hurt by the person who loves you? no!

so, i do get that i may never understand why people make the sexual choices they do-just like i truly do not understand why anyone would get a tattoo or an ear piercing. i just don't get it! but that's ok, and i certainly don't judge or care if someone else get's a nose piercing or whatever. i don't just judge everything i don't understand.

but violence + sex, i do judge. i don't know why they need to be intermingled. that doesn't mean i want all my sex to be all slow and lovey-dovey all the time. but when porn is violent, i judge it.

i have more to say but i should probably do some work smile.gif

i think this is an interesting discussion, it's a topic that pushes people's buttons, and i'ts really personal, so it's hard to talk about. but, i think really necessary, especially for me.

erin-i think that quote says so much-what is choice when your other options are just as bad?




Also, I really do believe every person gets to decide how they want to express their sexuality, and i really don't care too much how they do it. what bothers me though, is kinda what wombat and erin are talking about-how mainstreamed a lot of unhealthy behavior has become-girls making out with each other just to get male attention, etc. so, while i really don't care what goes on in your bedroom (or wherever) i DO care about people who may not be as educated and powerful, etc. etc. as the women on this board.
maddy29
found this on wikipedia-a list of bdsm terms-might be helpful for discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BDSM_terms

not like wikipedia is the end all be all of definitions...

go_kayte
QUOTE(wombat @ Dec 4 2006, 10:05 AM) *

Also, it's almost a truism that strippers save their "real sex" for women.

At what point does women dumping their sexual baggage on other women become "just a HOTT bisexual" and acceptable?

(I'm not talking about women who swing from men to women in a more random, unplaned, "just cuase I like it" manner)



Could you clarify this for me? I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're getting at. It seems like you're dumping on bisexual women who aren't casual enough about it, but I could be wrong. This just set off a red light in my head and I don't like it. If you're getting at what I think you are, you don't like women who may have been sexually abused in the past to be bisexual? Or...you don't like being hit on by bisexual women?
Sorry if I've misunderstood you. I hope I have. It's just kind of a big issue for me.
wombat
No, I think it's fine for women to be bisexual or to behave in any way they like sexually whether they have been abused in the past or not.

I just notice that both men and women will pass down abuse that they get FROM men, TO women.

We need to be aware of that, as Maddy says, well, what about women that are not as well off or strong and protected in other ways besides money, or, even if they do have a certain amount of strength and money, are more vulnerable due to mental illness or emotional problems or a lack of experience, youth, or just coming out of a say, christian environment... there are people who would be telling them that they should really try having a baseball bat up their butt.

maddy29
ack, yes wombat-that's what i was trying to say. you said it much better smile.gif

i think it goes right along with what erin was saying-it has to be a REAL choice, and for manypeople, they just don't have real choices.

i was just reading on another feminist website, scarletteen, which seems pretty cool. they have some really nice threads about this stuff, super interesting.

there is a woman on there who is/was a prostitute for 30 years, and she describes it soooo differently than most. it's hard to for me, because i don't "know" anyone who's ever been an escort or prostitute or stripper. (i put know in quotes cause maybe i know someone who just hasn't told me). so i get my information from others, the media, from my women's studies education. but i think it's SO different to actually talk with people about this stuff, in depth. For me, i need to hear real people talking about this stuff, not just numbers or facts and figures that are easy to distort.


I'm wondering if there are any good, qualitative research studies where an interviewer has sat down and done multiple interviews over time with sex workers. i'm gonna try to find out-good thing about working at a university!
greenbean
Oh boy, Maddy, my head is spinning! Okay, this is gonna be a long one:

You are right, it is hard to discuss this because it is personal,..and I can't really bring myself to write out a play by play of my sexual senarios, for fear that you (or others) will have your red pen out with comments like "this is sad,..this girl is pathetic" *OR* on the other hand, perhaps you'll be "aw, this is nothing, I do that with my boyfriend all the time" ...either way I'd feel a bit foolish.

I do have a lot of tattoos after all, and while you say you dont judge, you dont understand it,..so my guess is you wouldnt understand my bedroom desires either. And really, you dont HAVE to,..and you especially dont have to feel bad about not doing it yourself, the whole point is enjoying what you like, and allowing others to enjoy what they like.

As far as all the definitions, in my original post I was careful to say that I enjoy being dominated, I did not say that I am a masochist. I only defended s/m (and I believe this goes for FJ as well) because that is the most popular term for all things related to BDSM, so I thought you were using the term broadly. To be technical, my preferences would fall under dominance and submission, not so much s/m. Again I'd like to stress that hardcore s/m is really not a very common occurence outside of porn and fetish clubs. The issue with it being dangerous to society is only if someone is doing it against their will, but that goes for all porn, right?

Bondage and S/M are actually more often public displays rather than bedroom activity. Kinda like old-fashioned circus freak shows. Yeah, I will concede that that can be sad,..BUT if the people honestly enjoy it, then who cares? In fact, I recall that Bust did an article on some circus freaks that loved the lifestyle. Ok, I'm rambling now....

Ok, I will get personal now...heres what I don't do: I dont wear a dog collar and get led around by a partner (although I would be willing to try it smile.gif) I dont pay or get paid for any sexual activity. I dont like leather and whips. I dont want pain that makes me bleed, and I never want to be choked or gagged. The more popular form of female submission (at least according to the boards I frequent) is incorporated in reality more than fantasy. We arent into 'role playing', ..for instance, its not "light spankings and "oh what a bad little girl, hee hee?" cuz that seems like simply spice-up-the-bedroom silliness. Dom/sub relationships are about the guy being in control (sexually) at all times, and spanking is used as a way to disipline, put the sub in her place. It seems demeaning but to a lot of us we crave it. We ladies on this other board have tried to figure out why we like this. Some think its biological, like there is a submissive gene,..like the gay gene or something. Others think its from how we raised in childhood. The majority of women on the other board were NEVER spanked in childhood, and didnt receive much discipline at all. This is very true for me. My parents, especially my dad, adored me and I could do no wrong. I was never punished. Everthing I did was great in their eyes, ..I was such a good girl, I was so smart and talented yada yada. Even when I was in team sports and SUCKED, or when I got less than stellar grades, they would say I was fantastic. This was annoying to me. I was always thinking "no! I suck! Dont tell me I'm good enough when I'm not! Stop rewarding me when I didnt earn it!!"

So, go figure, I crave the opposite behavior from men. I like when men are a challenge. I love to beg for sex, and the best is when they withhold it, and mock me for begging. Its so hot. Really, withholding is the true punishment, not spanking. For example I was on a roadtrip with a boy, and suggested we pull over for some nookie. He said no because he was mad at me for not offering to get him some coffee on our last pitstop. I pouted and pleaded but he held ground and would just look at me completely serious and say "you should embarrassed of yourself for being such a fiend." Thats dom/sub behavior for you,..sadistic little games played out in everyday senarios. Something I havent tried yet but other women swear by it, is agreeing that when in a silly arguement with your partner the man ends it with a spanking. These women consider it a blessing, because the alternative is stonewalling, resentment, or screaming at each other all night. If the man just turns her over and smacks her bum, thats it! Fights over, move on.

These female subs arent "surrendered wives" or doormats, usually these women, like me, are very fiesty, silly, opinionated and adventurous. We also feel like we tend to be irrational and bratty a lot of the time, and need a strong man to keep it in check. Classic examples of dom/sub relationships are Desi and Lucy, Petrucchio and Katherine, Mr. Knightley and Emma, Clark Gable and any leading lady he is paired with.

Hope this helps! I know this post isnt so much about porn but I think its about lifestyles that some may consider 'not feminist'. I know I've struggled with it!
lucizoe
delurk (greenbean, thanks so much for your post. I identify with a majority of what your wrote, but I don't have the skin to put it out there. I'm taciturn, but wanted to say thank you). relurk
maddy29
yeah thanks that helps a lot! it's true, i don't "Get it."

i appreciate you putting that out there because it's hard to do-you may feel judged, etc. And it's hard for me to respond, because i don't want to attack you or make you feel like i think you are pathetic or something......

BUT....

i don't think you are gross or anything, but when i read that it makes me sick, literally, to my stomach. because it seems like it's all about the woman being shamed for wanting sex. i know it's not "real" shame, but that's what it feels like. and the man having all the power-no fucking way! not for me! that would make me feel totally degraded and demeaned and unloved and unrespected.

NOw, i'm talking ME, not YOU. Maybe it is just something that to me is such a turn-off, i can't imagine how it could be a turn-on for someone else. and, i'll probably never understand it! But, that doesn't mean I can't learn about it and learn from people who do like it, so as to help me with my opinions about it.

dang, i just don't get it. how is it NOT demeaning to have the male have the power all of the time? how is it NOT demeaning to have to beg for sex? how is it NOT demeaning to be spanked, instead of working out relationship problems for real. I'm not judging you, i just truly don't understand. I mean, why is it the male that's the dom? Male's have more power to begin wtih....i guess i could understand the woman being the dom more, because that would be a reversal of power, and it would allow the woman to feel in control of the sex, which could feel really awesome.

ack. i just don't get it! maybe i never will.

I do see the difference though now, between s/m and bondage and that being separate from the dominance/submission parts.
greenbean
Wow! Thanks Lucizoe! I must say that I'm surprised you relate, cuz you seem like such a tough cookie! I suppose it reinforces my idea then that strong woman are likely to be attracted to strong men. I think a lot of critics of feminism think that we feminists like to emasculate men, but really I think most of us want to "meet our match" so to speak. Its relieving to learn that you of all Busties relate! laugh.gif

Maddy, no worries, like I said you dont have to force yourself to understand it. I do however, feel like since you are a survivor, of course you are coming from a totally different place then I am. I can understand you wanting to take your power back. I have always had an abudance of power, so for me I enjoy giving it away, ..and I feed on shame and discipline. (of course, there is a line I draw,..there is a difference between a dominant man and a domineering one).

I've tried to go the other route...Once I dated a guy who wanted me to be the dom. I spanked him and let him grovel and worship me, but I found it utterly boring and a turn-off.

Sorry this is a bit of a derail, ..perhaps I should have posted in "confessions". I feel so light and airy right now! This is quite invigorating to put this out there is a place I'm not sure is accepting of it. Thanks Busties, I'm so glad I have this forum!
maddy29
yep, i certainly get how my past and your past led us to different things....i do think that's a lot of it. it's weird to me that someone would want/like the shame-it makes me think about the anal sex thread-about how a big part of the turn-on for many is that they are doing something "bad" or "taboo." i don't want to feel like that, but i can understand how that can feel exciting.

i do think it's VERY important for all of us to be able to talk openly about our likes/dislikes/turnons/etc.

it's weird for me, because i've always been someone who can really empathize with others, feel their pain so to speak. so it's a very hard position for me to be in to NOT get it AT ALL!!! i think that i have to accept that somethings i just don't get, or can't "feel" and that i just have to listen to others when it comes to things like that. and just cause something feels a certain way to me, it can feel the exact opposite to someone else.

i think a lot of this stuff comes down to my worries and fears that allowing for certain behaviors comes at the expense of abused, trapped women. porn i see as something disgusting that i escaped from-kind of a "but for the grace of god..." thing. prostitutiion i see as something only desparate people do for money. etc etc. so, some of this i take really personally, and some of it i just worry about at a political level.

back to porn for a minute-on another board someone was saying how young people today (hee hee, i'm 30 so i'm not in that category!) are the first generation to grow up with porn being so mainstream, available, and so common. kids growing up with cable and the internet see so much more of thsi stuff than we did, and i just can't think that's a good thing. but, maybe it's just like media in general-not really very good for us-showing us false things, etc.

yowzah, my head is spinning now too!!! smile.gif

greenbean
okay, just a little bit more before I have to get back to work (I work for myself,.. too much freedom! laugh.gif )

You brought up anal and I'd like to note that I actually dont like anal sex, and this presents a good example of a good dom/sub relationship: my last boy would use that to tease me, like, act like he was about to do me that way and I would whimper 'no!' and he would laugh, cuz he really wasnt going to. It was part of his torment. A good dom wouldnt do something so close to rape. He doesnt want to lose my trust, he just wants to play with it. Now, a true sadist would go ahead and do me in the butt, knowing it was a no-no. Thats the difference, and thats why I'm not a masochist.

Also, I agree that men are in control throughout most of the world, and when women in fundamendalist circles say they enjoy being subservient to a man, yeah, that is cring-worthy to me. I my world though, women have a lot of power and control, so I've been conditioned differently.
go_kayte
QUOTE(greenbean @ Dec 4 2006, 03:26 PM) *
Something I havent tried yet but other women swear by it, is agreeing that when in a silly arguement with your partner the man ends it with a spanking. These women consider it a blessing, because the alternative is stonewalling, resentment, or screaming at each other all night. If the man just turns her over and smacks her bum, thats it! Fights over, move on.

These female subs arent "surrendered wives" or doormats, usually these women, like me, are very fiesty, silly, opinionated and adventurous. We also feel like we tend to be irrational and bratty a lot of the time, and need a strong man to keep it in check. Classic examples of dom/sub relationships are Desi and Lucy, Petrucchio and Katherine, Mr. Knightley and Emma, Clark Gable and any leading lady he is paired with.

Hope this helps! I know this post isnt so much about porn but I think its about lifestyles that some may consider 'not feminist'. I know I've struggled with it!


Hee hee. Greenbean, this made me giggle. This is my boy and I. I'm a total bossy brat and I get what I want. A lot of men or women would just be like "fuck you, I'm not dealing with your immature bossy bullshit" but my boyfriend loves me so when I'm being really bratty he threatens a spanking, goosing, or just tells me "you sure are gonna get it later missy" or something like that. It drives me wild. And it's the best for both of us-- he doesn't have to feel like I'm in total control of the relationship, and he can act like he's not putting up with me even though he actually is appeasing me. I get to let the sass out that has to stay inside during work and school. It turns us both on, and it's really very flirtatious. I hope none of you think this is "sad and pathetic" or something, because really if you saw it you would probably think it was cute. It is because we can deal with each other in this way, I believe, that we rarely ever fight, and if we do it's over within a matter of minutes. We've been together for 6 years. We established boundaries very early on (within the first few weeks of our relationship, though they have definitely evolved) and have never had a problem with sexual miscommunication. It's a good thing. For us. I know not necessarily for everyone though.
erinjane
QUOTE(greenbean @ Dec 4 2006, 03:27 PM) *

Maddy, no worries, like I said you dont have to force yourself to understand it. I do however, feel like since you are a survivor, of course you are coming from a totally different place then I am. I can understand you wanting to take your power back. I have always had an abudance of power, so for me I enjoy giving it away, ..and I feed on shame and discipline. (of course, there is a line I draw,..there is a difference between a dominant man and a domineering one).



I wonder what brings us to our turn ons though...I'm a survivor as well, but I really like being dominated, although not the same extreme as you, greenbean (and I use the word "extreme" loosely). I love being held down and told what do to and definatly being cruely teased for a very long time and I've always wondered why that is, with me being a survivor. Seems to make sense it would be a turn off, but then I just have to say that maybe they're not connected at all.

Once again, I wanted to write more, but I have to run off.
maddy29
hey all-so interesting!

just one point to clarify-i didn't say i thought s/m was sad and pathetic, i said it was sad and unhealthy smile.gif and when i was saying that, i was talking, apparently, about the more hard-core stuff. i was talking about people who are truly being hurt, and hurting others. I DO think that's unhealthy.

it IS weird about our turn ons and turn offs, i mean who even knows where they come from? i think it'd be really hard to say oh, THIS is where my desires come from, ya know?

i can understand what erin is saying, to me that just seems like one way to have sex. sometimes i like to be "in control" sometimes i like it when he'll kinda take charge-that totally turns me on (esp cause he's such a sweet little softie, so when he gets all aggressive it's like whoa!!!). so maybe it's just an extension of that?

maybe you just have to be a big brat to enjoy it smile.gif hee hee, just kidding! but it's interesting that two of you said that you are fiesty and bratty or whatever-maybe because you feel powerful and in charge most of the time, it's a nice release for someone else to take over? i get that.

i don't think my man would ever be able to really be that forceful or "mean." and that's part of what i LOOOOOVE about him. he's SO loving and kind and gentle, which is what drew me to him in the first place. (not that your men/women aren't loving and kind and gentle). sometimes (in the early stages of our relationship) i'd want him to be more "mean" and he just couldn't be.

i remember one time i was kinda spacing out during sex and kinda fantasizing about it being this wam bam thank ya man kinda thing, not respectful to me, etc. and i was getting frustrated because he was being so gentle, and then i kinda freaked out. i realized that i had this amazing loving beautiful man who just cherished me, and here i am still using my old unhealthy (for me) fantasies! gRRR! at first it was a let down, but then i started working on really being present during sex, and accepting his love.

i guess for me the s/m stuff would be going back to a dark place that i never want to go back to again. whereas for others, it's just a fun exciting thing.

this is sooo helpful!
wombat
A smart sexual woman writer -- forget who -- once said to use whatever fantasy works for you, whether it seems unfeminist or not.

I mean, there are so many different ways for people to interpret all kinds of sex.

Also, often fantasy is better than reality. I mean, forced sex workers in Thailand or Bulgaria never have a nice day... maybe I should put that on a t-shirt! smile.gif

Personally -- for me and my guy, a little light spanking or finger penetration is about it for butt sex -- sensation without a lot of risk and difficulty. And most if not all guys are into that, most going both ways with it as well. So, I didn't consider myself to be all that qualified to linger in the "Getting to the bottom of the matter" thread. smile.gif.

Also I hope I wasn't snobby or ignorant implying that a woman can only protect herself sexually if she has a certain amount of money or education. It's more that there is a necessity to be streetwise, for lack of a better word, which some women are without much money or education at all, whereas some highly educated women are naive.

I was pointing out that there is a tendency in society for both men and women to take out the abuse they have received, sexually and otherwise, from men or from parents, on girls and women, so we need to guard ourselves and help others. And glamorising this extroversion of abuse is not the way to go. Many folks feel relief of anxiety and a rise in self-esteem when they harm themselves or others (cutters for example) and,yet, the feeling does not last and they have to do it again.

The same thing is reported by drug addicts, pedophiles, rapists... we need to watch our ass in order to have a good sex life, okay?

I hate to think there are some people talked into taking on S&M clients or sex clients or participating in more risky sex who end up getting harmed by someone who does not actually have their best interests at heart but is banking on their yearnings for sex and "hipness" and acceptance.

Also, there is the phenomenon of sex as the price of admission to frat/sorority circles, and in many other contexts.
go_kayte
QUOTE(wombat @ Dec 5 2006, 12:22 PM) *

A smart sexual woman writer -- forget who -- once said to use whatever fantasy works for you, whether it seems unfeminist or not.


I think Susie Bright said this--is that who you're talking about? She's awesome.
maddy29
i know what you're saying about fantasy wombat-for me it was a fantasy that made me feel awful, so it wasn't that i was concerned because it wasn't feminist, but because it was just me reliving abuse, etc.

i soooo agree about fantasies being better than reality. i definitely fantasize about stuff i would NEVER do in real life. the fantasies are great, because i control them and everyone in them! everything is just how i want it to be. in real life, that would never happen. in real life, you have to think about safety, diseases, pregnancy, cheating, etc etc etc etc.
maddy29
ok, we've talked about porn, and somehow got onto s/m.

what do people think/feel about swinging, threesomes, group sex, sex parties, sex clubs, open relationships, that kind of thing?

my boyfriend has friends who swing (some of them) but it seems like it's mostly a bisexual wife who hits on this other wife and they make out and the husbands think it's so HOTTT. bleh. so annoying. these guys are such piggies that i have a bad attitude toward the whole thing. then one of them was telling us about this super HOTT sex club where you can go in and have sex and there's just all these other people doing it, etc.

to me, this sounds like one of those things that's hot in a fantasy but in reality isn't as good-at least for me.

whatcha'll think?
anna k
QUOTE
to me, this sounds like one of those things that's hot in a fantasy but in reality isn't as good-at least for me.


I agree. I like reading memoirs by porn stars and rock stars because I like living vicariously through the wild sex stories, and would want to be that erotically-charged, but it isn't in me. I get uncomfortable in crowds or if people are walking too close to me in an empty environment, so being among naked people humping and making orgasmic sounds (real or fake) would turn me off. Plus, it feels too Caligula-like, like an overindulgent buffet of sex and wanting to taste everything at once, making a mental checklist of all the possible sexual things to do.
lucizoe
I really like the respect in this discussion. This is why the lounge is such a great place.

aw, greenbean, I'm not a tough cookie. I'm more like an M&M - hard and crusty on the outside with a gooey - yet tasty! - center lurking just beneath the surface.

hmmmm - to maddy's question. I used to think I might like polyamory, a result of semi-hero worship for a friend of mine (those specific illusions have since shattered, thankfully). It seemed so glamorous - juggling a couple of boys, which really isn't polyamory, technically, but-

Like anna_k, I'd rather read about it than do it (incidentally, The Ethical Slut is an interesting read), however curious I might be. I don't think I could ever be cool watching Mr.Luci doing anything sexual with another person, and I don't have any desire to do so either.

ETA - on a wider scale than just, you know, myself, I try to view all the sexual choices of others as a result of their own free will and personal tastes and ability to make thoughtful decisions. Unfortunately, since that isn't necessarily the case, I worry about situations like maddy described, or perhaps a situation where one partner is only agreeing because s/he does not want to be seen as a prude or fears losing the relationship. Coersion of any kind is bad, you know? But if both partners are equally into it then great!

Of the two couples I know who were in publically open relationships one just broke up because one became emotionally unfaithful, and the other (hottest.professor.ever) has three kids and seemed just peachy.

*relurking*
wombat
Ah, well, we've heard about a few but have not gone.

I think trusting each other not to "cheat" is important, so it would have to be both of us and open about it, or not happening, so far, not. Not for a long time.

Anyway, the thing about porn stars and rock stars and their eroticism is that they give up other relationships to do it -- they bag long-term love relationships, a lot of genuine friendships, and even most genuine vulnerable emotion communication -- except maybe with a therapist.

It all has to do with moving from place to place and meeting needs and desires of the moment, and seeing people as "useful" and "no longer useful."

I'm not judging this or accusing them of being bad people, but it seems to me it would be a bit lonely at times. Ungrounded.
maddy29
I feel like I'm finally getting a real sex education. I really thought that maybe 90% of people just have plain old "regular" sex. I had no idea so many people were into so much other stuff! I don't even know what are all the things you can do sexually. I need to make a list. God I'm a dork! smile.gif

I don't like the idea of sharing my man either. Lately I've been feeling lame about that though, like there's something wrong with me if I'm not "secure" enough or whatever. IT's not that I'm getting specific pressure, just sort of vague stuff. Sometimes I think it'd be fun to be with another guy, but then I think of my dude with another woman and it pisses me off. Boyfriend feels the same way thinking about me with another guy. and i like that. I think, for me, this stuff is best kept for my own fantasies, and not acted on. just the thought of acting on anything makes me feel sick.

So ya know how I mentioned my dudes response to me talking about playgirl? i mentioned it again during a great conversation we were having, and he was kind of jealous seeming again. later he admitted that he WAS jealous and he doesn't like the idea of me looking at other naked guys. YAYAYYYYYA!!!! i'm so fucking happy, because now he understands how i feel! it may not be rational or whatever, but i'm so glad he GETS it. so of course, now i REALLY have to go get a playgirl and look at him. he was like "well, i'll go get a playboy" i'm like yeah, you already have them! i just LOVE seeing the shoe on the other foot. i had no idea he'd react like that at all. love it love it love it!!!



lucizoe, i love what you said here;

QUOTE
ETA - on a wider scale than just, you know, myself, I try to view all the sexual choices of others as a result of their own free will and personal tastes and ability to make thoughtful decisions. Unfortunately, since that isn't necessarily the case, I worry about situations like maddy described, or perhaps a situation where one partner is only agreeing because s/he does not want to be seen as a prude or fears losing the relationship. Coersion of any kind is bad, you know? But if both partners are equally into it then great!



i sooo agree with this. this is what i've been coming to over the past week. i'm really fine with whatever consenting adults want to do with each other, whether i "understand" it or not. BUT i feel like sooo many situations aren't consensual, aren't honest, etc. well, what lucizoe said so nicely. and that's where my concern is. i'm really not concerned about the happy prostitute who loves what she does and is doing it out of a life choice that she made with other options available to her. i AM concerned about what i think would be the vast majority of prostitutes who didn't choose it, or who did choose it but for bad reasons, or who thought it might be ok but now they are trapped in a horrible life.



i love how much i'm dominating this thread. hmm, maybe i'd like to be a dom wink.gif

i'm wondering, why is it legal for a porn actor to get paid to have sex on camera, but it is illegal to have sex for money off camera? (prostitution). does this make sense to anyone? it seems very weird, at a strip club you can see everything, you can get a lap dance, but you can't actually do a sex act. why is a sex ever illegal? i mean ok sex with a minor, fine, but tha'ts really rape anyways......

eta-re: my boys playboy-he had a number of them on his bookshelf when we started dating, i saw them, flipped the fuck right out, totally triggered, and asked him to please put them outside of the bedroom. he's very respectful about this stuff, understands how much it upsets me, etc. we also had this amazing discussion the other day about how often naked women etc are shoved into my face, and how he would feel if every show and movie and video and commercial was showing sexxee men. he kinda made a face like yuck i don't want to see neked men! - it was great. so fuckign lucky he dosen't have to even THINK about it. i'm just so happy he's getting all of this.
erinjane
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Dec 5 2006, 03:19 PM) *

ok, we've talked about porn, and somehow got onto s/m.

what do people think/feel about swinging, threesomes, group sex, sex parties, sex clubs, open relationships, that kind of thing?

my boyfriend has friends who swing (some of them) but it seems like it's mostly a bisexual wife who hits on this other wife and they make out and the husbands think it's so HOTTT. bleh. so annoying. these guys are such piggies that i have a bad attitude toward the whole thing. then one of them was telling us about this super HOTT sex club where you can go in and have sex and there's just all these other people doing it, etc.

to me, this sounds like one of those things that's hot in a fantasy but in reality isn't as good-at least for me.

whatcha'll think?


I pretty much feel the same way as I do about s/m; to each his own, but probably not for me. I know i've heard it ending in disaster for some, but for others it's a lifestyle that really works.

I've had fantasies about a threesome but I don't know if I'd really be comfortable with one in the long run.

I don't think I'd ever be comfortable in something like an open relationship because that's just not the way I seem to work. I've tried to hook up with a couple of guys casually but it didn't work for me because I end up developing feelings try as I might not to. And thinking of my partner with someone else while we were together would upset me, even though I'm an extremely non-jealous girlfriend type. What I mean by this is, I don't mind if you look at porn, I don't mind if you're best friends with your ex-girlfriend, I don't mind if you keep pictures of an ex around, etc.


Going back to consensual prostitution and stuff, someone tried to use an anology on me the other day that totally backfired. They said to me, "You wouldn't promote safe sex, STD testing, and legalized prostitution if you wanted it to stop, would you?" Well yeah, I would. I don't really like that prostitution exists, but I'm not naive enough to think it will stop just like that. (The person was using this to try and say that you can't say "Support our troops" and not support the war.)
wombat
Yeah, I don't mind that my guy has sex magazines bc if I can look and fantasize so can he. Besides, sometimes I find Playboy etc kind of hot. But, that's me.

greenbean
Okay, I've been busy lately but to answer Maddy's question about all those other sex situations: I'm not against any of it but I'm not really invovled in that stuff cuz how forced and formulaic it tends to be, ... if its spontaneous it can be hot though. I almost had a threesome once but the other girl got uncomfortable and left so the guy and I kept going on our own. Swinging and sex parties/clubs are little corny to me and usually only work if drugs are involved, which I'm not into anymore. Just like Lucizoe, I did think open-relationships were awesome because I knew people who did em, but really, they only work short-term cuz eventually someone will want to be exclusive.

Oh yeah, over the summer I had sex in a peepshow booth (picture a strip club where the stage is surrounded by little booths, where you watch the girls behind a window, a quarter a minute to keep the shutter up). It was with the same boy from the roadtrip and I totally instigated it. tongue.gif He scolded me afterwards for 'making' him do it. hee. So that was a threesome in a way, having this naked girl behind glass making eyes at us as we went at it. I didnt get jealous cuz it was like, 'ok mister, you can see her but you cant touch her'. She was super-cute, like a tattooed Maggie Gyllenhaal. There were two other dancers that kept looking over at us... I think were jealous that she got the cute couple while they were stuck entertaining dirty old men. heh heh

So, I gotta get back to work but I'm thinking of starting a new thread (since I'm derailing this one so much).
I'll post some ideas in the community forum so stop by to give your opinions smile.gif
maddy29
i feel like we need a thread like, "how do youlike your sex?" or something, i mean i guess that coudl be in the general sex thread, i dunno. i do'ntn think it's really derailing this thread, because it's all connected, i think.

that's pretty much how i feel about the swinging open thing-for me, it just wouldn't work, but i don't care if others do it. i guess why it grosses me out is that the only people i know who do it, are quite icky and unattractive to me...bleh, so the thought of swinging with them or something is grooooosssssss. smile.gif

sukouyant
Are we still talking about porn in this thread?

This article really works up my last nerve:

Ex-Porn actress wants teaching job back

They find out that she was an xxx rated porn actress a decade ago. she admits to it. so they suspend her! Even though she is qualified to be a teacher, never had a complaint prior (in fact with excellent reviews as a teacher).
They wont rehire her because of her past, nor will anyone else hire her for that matter.
Is this what they do in America? This is so unethical IMO
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