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lucizoe
I agree, maddy, that there can be a tone of Let's Make Nice and "Oh no! Emotion!" when it comes to expressing anger on the boards. I think much of that stems from the fact that every single one of us has fights or angry disagreements like this one every single day, and some people like to see BUST as a way to get away from all that. Not saying that that's what it should be, but everyone views this place differently. Personally, I like to see things get heated sometimes, as long as it doesn't devolve into personal attacks, and people are mature enough to own up to being wrong.

I can speak to the not wanting to worry about what I'm doing is or isn't feminist, even though it's all been said before by girltrouble:

Every single day that I am on this planet I am being unfairly judged by others based on my appearance, my actions and my job. Like every other woman out there I have to make damn sure that I am at least as good, if not ten times better, than a man doing the exact same thing. I have to tread a careful line between being seen as a bitch, and being seen as assertive; between being viewed as a braggart and merely being confident; being visible, but not too visible. All the onus is on us to prove that we deserve to exist, that we deserve autonomy over our own bodies - the same autonomy which is automatically granted to men. That is crippling. And to take a movement meant to liberate women from those expectations and use it as yet another way of keeping us off-balance ("Can I wear lipstick and still be feminist? Can I get married and still be feminist?") is unacceptable and cruel.

Everyone has the lines that they draw and the lines that they cross in order to simply survive. And I know that being white, heterosexual and tentatively middle class hands me more control over those lines than WOC, lesbians, transsexuals, and working class/poor women. If the pressure is almost more than I can bear, I cannot even imagine what other women go through, and I can't fault anyone for the coping behaviors they use - short of causing harm to others - to live in this profoundly ill society.

What I see on BUST is an incredible collection of smart women and men who are more than aware of the influence of - and damage caused by - patriarchy in their lives, and are navigating as best they can. We are not a group of children unaware of socialization and the effect that has on our desires. If someone was actively hurting another person by their actions, actively oppressing them (either physically or emotionally) then no, that is not feminist and I wouldn't expect believers in true human equality to support that. But honestly, I have yet to see an example of that on this site.

Sometimes I can't help but see a desire for a checklist, for hard-and-fast, one-size-fits-all Rules for Feminism as a way of deflecting an important issue. Namely, that the choices women make are already limited merely by the fact of our being women. And that isn't women's fault and we shouldn't have to answer for it.
pepper
it isn't so much make nice and don't argue for me, it's arguing with some consciousness and maturity that i'm after. more discussion, less fight. the cussing people out and name calling over disgreements is Never condusive to resolution and, i think, shouldn't be tolerated. it's one thing for someone to lose their temper and say something shitty but it's something else for continuous personally attacking posts that are later justified instead of apologized for. there's no excuse for that kind of behavior, we are adults not a bunch of unruly children who can't keep it together to have a discussion. calling someone out from something is not the same as calling her a bitch.
go_kayte
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Jan 19 2007, 07:11 PM) *

"All I know is that I don't want to worry about whether something I'm doing is feminist or un-feminist."

this opinion seems to dominate here at bust, and i find it terrifying, actually. anyone ever heard of "the personal is political?"

the bust definition of feminism seems to be "i can do whatever i want and no one can say anything, and i will also require every other woman to support my choices no matter what."

interesting, but really, that's not what feminism is about, and if you think it is, maybe you should take a women's studies class, or i dunno, read a book or something?

it's interesting though, even within this definition, there is still room to NOT support women (i.e. ME). if you truly believe that we should all be supporting each other NO MATTER WHAT we say or do, then how come i'm not being supported here? i'm a feminist, so support me already.

hnm, maybe the definition should be "i can do whatever i want and no one better say anything but i can choose who I want to support and who i can silence" yeah, i like that one better.

either way, i'm truly disgusted.
blink.gif rolleyes.gif


Since you quoted me in this message I think I should respond here. I don't at all think "i can do whatever i want and no one can say anything, and i will also require every other woman to support my choices no matter what." In fact, I don't even expect other women to support my choices. And a lot of times they don't. Some of my queer women friends don't understand or support my choice to have a boyfriend since I identify as queer. Some of my hetero women friends don't support my choice to come out as queer since I have a boyfriend. My true friends (hopefully) realize that it's just me being me, and we support each other not cause we're sisters in the struggle against patriarchy but because we're friends and that's what friends do. There's no reason I would expect any women who aren't my friends to support any of my choices, whether it be the choice to dye my hair or the choice to not shave my legs, I don't care what "feminists in general" think about it. What I support for other women as a whole is freedom of choice. Work, stay at home, get married, stay single, be queer, be straight, wear makeup, wear dreadlocks, have kids, have abortions, WHATEVER just so long as it's your own personal choices.

Please don't tell me to "read a book or something". I don't think being patronizing is useful in this at all. Sorry I'm not a women's studies major but that doesn't exclude me from being a feminist, or being able to say what being a feminist means to me.

kickitkickitkickit
I think porn is offensive no matter how you want to look at it. The people involved are objects to be profitted off of, in my opinion.
tesao
several posts back, pre-brou-ha-ha, someone mentioned something about porn portraying women doing things that were for the benefit of the men in the porn and watching the porn only, things that never happened in real life. the example that i remember is that of a woman being able to be turned on by giving a blow job.

i just wanted to step forward and say hi, my name is tes, and i can reach orgasm by giving a blow job. no touching of girl bits. moaning of owner of cock in question a plus but not essential. having cum in my mouth at the end, priceless. i love cum. can't get enough of it. i have a special horn bowl and spoon, both edged in silver, specifically for cum. horn so as not to ruin the taste of the semen. just thinking about being fed cum on that spoon makes me wet.

i am not a porn actress. i did not grow up watching porn. i grew up being allowed to respond naturally to what my body liked and wanted. my responses today are a direct result of that.

now, of course i can't say anything regarding the women who make the films. i suspect that they are like most of us, sometimes they get off, sometimes they don't. since it is work to them, i suspect that it may be less often for them than for the rest of us. the finished film doesn't show us the breaks or the edits in the filming where the actors were stopped to be repositioned or to get a better camera angle. it has to be just as difficult on the guys -- they really have to have a hard on, and i'm sure that it is unnerving to be filmed, as it is so obvious when the guy goes limp. it seems to happen even more often in the "gang bang" scenarios. you know that all those guys are looking at each other's dicks and comparing themselves to each other.

it would be difficult for me to forget that i am being filmed and to just act naturally and let orgasm take care of itself. that would hold true for both men and women.
wombat
I really REALLY appreciated girl_trouble's distinctions about the safe and unsafe, positive and negative aspects of expressing sexual identities such as transgender, sex work, porn and BDSM.

I think there can be a sense of women being too 'nice' to speak up about aspects of those sexual expressions that ARE negative, since we have been so stigmatized for doing it at all.

It is generally agreed that, for very sound reasons, Being a "dom" is not supposed to affect one's public relationships with non-sex partners, or be witnessed by people who are not part of the relationship and don't want to witness it. Again, ***not criticising anyone on [Fun with Floggers] thread for posting****, you are sharing here in a good place to share. Just thouught I would say it because it doesn't seem it has been said in the general "how to handle things" discussion.


----

but, Tesao, don't you take out your stated preference for dominating other women sexually, in public, here on the Bust boards, constantly posting about your sexuality in many threads and constantly mentioning how "powerful" and "prestigious" you are? Is that not, in fact, an attempt to treat Busties, who are not consenting sex partners with you, as sexual submissives?

That is how I see you. I don't think your attempts to sexually dominate other Busties are appropriate or part of a healthy sexuality or BDSM lifestyle.

I am not asking others to dislike or disapprove of you, nor am I telling you to change or leave, but I tend to avoid you, and largely ignore what you post, for this reason.

We need to speak up about things that are difficult and respect other's choices,yes, respect other people's choices and still speak up.

In the Okayers thread, I wasn't sure Minx was handling her nascent S&M practice properly. I'm not against it at all, but she has a small child in the middle of a custody battle and she is a public school teacher. Then she mentions wanting to have sex in public, and, on the okayers thread, posts giant pictures and long words about the stuff she's doing.

That could cause disaster for her personally and professionally, and, my trying to make the point that kids see spanking differently so the aspect of it that is adult sexual material should be carefully hidden from them -- well, I'm sure I'll be accused of equating BDSM with pedophilia, which, of course is inaccurate and not at all what I'm doing.

In the Okayers thread, when I posted criticism and questioning of Minx, and of Tesao, and Doodlebug told me many times that I had to be silent. That is not acceptable to me, then or now. The Okayers thread is a public space, and it is not the BDSM thread.

We do need to have a sense of safe space and acceptance for survivors, a safe space for BDSM, a safe space for other aspects of women's lives that are stigmatized by the larger society.

We also need to have a safe public space in which we allow ALL women to express *our individual* sexuality and our beliefs about life in general, and we need to tolerate disputes when they happen. Sometimes it seems people jump in to defend their friend whether or not their friend is right or wrong in the particular case.

I certainly would not want to be part of a board where some people are allowed to be aggressive and dominating and the rest of us are supposed to put up with it like nice girls and say nothing.

And, hooray, that's not what the Bust board is about.
pepper
wow. harsh but thank you for your honesty. your feelings and opinion were respectfully expressed and i appreciate that.

"We need to speak up about things that are difficult and respect other's choices,yes, respect other people's choices and still speak up."

yes. i agree with that.

"when I posted criticism and questioning ... ... ... told me many times that I had to be silent. That is not acceptable to me, then or now."

no, i don't agree with that either. if opinions are expressed respectfully and honestly they should be honoured as such. it takes courage and also care to give an honest opinion sometimes and being slapped in the face for it is wrong.
silence is not always golden.
bunnyb
I don't agree with silence either but .... I think some of those points about tesao are more than harsh and I think that would have been something best left for PM. I don't see the point of posting it publicly unless you are trying to open people's eyes to what you think tesao is like; if it was concern for all of us then it should have been taken to tesao directly. However, I don't think she is like that at all and I have interacted with tes on this board for a couple of years, closely in kvetch up, and she is widely loved and respected, is fun and intelligent and caring and sexually confident and is one of the strongest, most dedicated and allround loveliest of BUSTies. I would take tes in an instant over any poster making passive agressive comments, whatever their motivation. Jeez wombat, talk about creating division.

maybe the reason doodledug told you to "be silent" is because you have a way of putting things that simply isn't nice, however well-intentioned you may be. No, you don't have to play nice all the time but ignore tesao (and minx and whoever) if you want to but, IMO, it's trollish to try to get others around to your way of thinking. You said you're not, but I don't believe you.
pepper
i don't know, i appreciate the perspective. i don't think those things about tes but i'm also a dominant, sexually aggressive and confident woman who's outspoken about sex and other things so... mostly i'm taking the comments as how the might pertain to me. i can see the pov actually, here and in RL, i can see it clearly how someone could find that personality intimidating, overwhelming, etc. i know that i can have that affect on people for real and why not here too? with no other knowledge of me to buffer it, sure. especially.
i appreciate the chance to have my awareness brought to the feelings that i may be bringing up in others here. i don't know if tes will feel the same way but i suspect that she might.
that said, i'm not about to change myself or otherwise take responsibility for someone else's feelings. that's not my job and it's impossible to please everyone anyhow. and it's a good lesson for the person who feels that way and a chance for them to examine and work through their feelings too. i would never take that opportunity away from them by changing to protect them. that isn't very progressive IMHO. it's better to trip and fall over yourself or someone else than to always watch your step.
the people who have taught me the most in life have been the ones that didn't like me or that i didn't like.
bunnyb
exactly, you wouldn't change yourself and I doubt tesao would so what's the point? I really think that if someone is intimidated by a dominant and sexually confident woman then they need to work through their own insecurities and not try to villify the person for being the way they are.
pepper
i didn't feel that it was villification, just an honest expression of feelings. ones that were probably as hard to say as they are to hear. my point is that i'd rather have that being talked about on the board and some understanding generated than just being ignored and not talked about at all. it can be a catalist for a good discussion. i'm certainly interested to hear what tes has to say on the matter. i'm sure this isn't the first time she's come across it and i'll bet she has some great insight.
bunnyb
we view it differently but that's cool.

I think wombat is looking for another agrument and targetting a BUSTie she has issue with (from day one). Perhaps I'm viewing this with my heart rather than my head but this stinks of personal attack flying under the flag of helpful discussion. There was no need for it to be public, if wombat wanted to have a good, frank discussion about being intimidated by dominant women then she could have done so without naming names or causing another lounge furore; yourself, pepper, tesao, minx, doodlebug and other confident, self-assured BUSTies would still have been able to learn something and see how they could be affecting people both online and IRL.
pepper
i see your point. it is within our power to transform the discussion into helpful discussion regardless of the intention (if it was different from that). whichever aspect of that we feed into is the one that will grow and it could turn out to be a very interesting and worthwhile discussion.
bunnyb
definitely a worthwhile discussion could be made of this, I think that the way women react to other women and the way they treat other women is a huge reason to why some of us post so often! however, it would also be worthwhile to look at why women attack other women when venting their frustration at their own insecurities.
pepper
but that's such an easy question to answer. it can be a gut reaction to something that feels uncomfortable. it's a protection thing a lot of the time, deflection, defense. it can come from insecurity about one's self, about having unexamined thoughts challenged or worse, Examined thoughts challenged in such a way that creates doubt in the mind of the strong opinion holder.
working through it and finding a way to reflect rather than deflect, coming to terms with differences of opinion or revising one's own... it's all possible and worth attempting. growing pains you know, they can hurt but it's always a good thing in the end.
tesao
i may need to take some time to digest what has been said here, in an effort to make sense of the opinions voiced. it has been my experience that it is useful to listen to the dissenting opinion, because many times it takes confidence and courage to speak up against a prevailing perspective.

i'm reluctant to continue the discussion here, because i do not feel that this is the appropriate place. this thread is for the discussion of porn and whether or not it is cock-blocking feminism.

that said, i'm going to take a moment to address what is currently being discussed, although it is off topic. after this post, i would be happy to try to address other issues raised, if we could agree to do it in a more appropriate thread. that may be why doodle bug and other okayers found it difficult to accept for wombat to continue to express this point of view regarding me in the okay thread. it wasn't an appropriate place to do so. i don't know that as truth, it is simply a guess.

wombat, aka whammy bar, has seemingly taken umbrage at my perspectives before this particular instance. i'm not sure how many other busties would agree that i "constantly mention how "powerful" and "prestigious" i am. it is, admittedly, difficult to hear that sort of comment and not react to it. i would be interested in hearing some examples of how i do this, because it would be useful for myself and others to be able to make their own decisions as to whether or not i do this without just having it presented as fact. it is perhaps a small detail, but the quotes around those words make it sound as if i have used them specifically in reference to myself, and i don't remember doing so. saying that i am prestigious sounds disingenuous.

it isn't the first time that these sorts of things have been said to me or about me, and when i say that, i am talking about in real life, not here in the bust lounge. the manner in which wombat/whammy bar goes about it is a novel approach for me. i've been told that others, both men and women, find me intimidating. i think that is probably true, people do find me intimidating. there are many others, again both men and women, who do not find that to be the case. i don't believe that all of the intimidation factor is sexual in nature. many of those who have expressed these feelings towards me have no idea of my sexual preferences or proclivities, so i suspect that they would not say that they felt that i was attempting to "sexually dominate" them, or to "treat (those) who are not consenting sex partners (with me) as sexual submissives".

so, yes. i've experienced this sort of feeling regarding my personality before. i would be surprised if i hadn't. i'm 50 years old. i've spent many years in therapy, looking at myself, who i am, and who i want to be. i am not perfect, and there are many things about myself which i would still like to change. these characteristics - confidence in who i am and in my sexuality -- are not part of what i want to change. so no, i don't plan to change who i am or to leave the boards. i am agressive. i am extroverted. i am confident. those are characteristics, and i don't tend to ascribe negative or positive associations with them. they are just characteristics that i have, and that some people can handle more easily than others.

in fact, this may well have nothing to do with sexuality, but rather with power. i don't really know. i would guess that many people feel this way about hillary clinton, as well, and that is one of the reasons that she is so polarizing. women are not taught to be powerful or dominant.

i think that it is safe to say that wombat does not like me much. that is all right with me, i don't really care what she thinks about me. i don't appreciate wombat saying that the way that i present myself here on the boards is not "appropriate or part of a healthy sexuality or BDSM lifestyle". i don't appreciate it because i do not recognize wombat as an authority on healthy sexuality or BDSM. that particular part of wombat's post is opinion -- and wombat's opinion -- only. i'm not completely sure why wombat felt that this needed to be said, but i suppose i don't need to understand that.

i don't feel comfortable discussing minx here in this thread, where she has no idea that she is being talked about. so i am not going to address any of that part of wombat's post. in general, i don't think that it is respectful to talk about others behind their backs. if an issue becomes explosive, i am of the belief that it is best taken to PM. it is divisive to make blanket statements about people who do not post in a specific thread because those people are unlikely to read those statements, as a lot of busties tend to post in certain threads and therefore don't have as much direct contact -- if any -- with other busties in other parts of the lounge.

wombat, if you want to avoid my posts, may i suggest putting me on ignore? i'm not even around here all that much anymore, but i suspect that the ignore function would be helpful. as you yourself said, the boards should be a place where we can all present our own perspectives and the way that we choose to express ourselves. passive. agressive. confident. unsure. hot. cold. extroverted. introverted. heterosexual. homosexual. metrosexual. polysexual. asexual. hairy. shaved. brown eyes. blue eyes. red hair. brown hair. individual characteristics that have no inherent sense or meaning of good or bad. they just are.

*deep breath*

so. i don't know if that is what anyone expected or not. i hope that what i had to say was interesting, if not illuminating. perhaps how i said what i had to say was more enlightening than the actual content. i can't say if i will continue this discussion if it is taken to another thread that is more appropriate or not. i will say that i won't continue to have the discussion here.
lapis
Hi everybody. I hope I am following the protocol, having introduced myself on the newbie page. Anyway, maybe this is not the right place to mention it but there is something really poignant and painful in seeing so many intelligent, strong women experiencing so much conflict around porn/bdsm. It surprises me that the porn issue, out of so many feminist quandries, continues to be divisive--maybe because it always circulates around the themes of power and subjectivity. Seems like there's work to be done--which I am happy to participate in--in talking about what moves us as pleasuring/thinking beings. It's hard work, especially in trying to figure out how harnessing your sexual pleasure for someone else (in the form of sex work, porn, etc.) can be feminist, and how women who do that successfully aren't doing it at the expense of other women who make different choices...
notwearingwords
tesao, in reference to what you posted a couple of posts ago, (about someone posting that women don't enjoy giving blow jobs and you explaining that some, particularly you, do enjoy giving them very much) I just wanted to enter a quick note that I was talking about women blowing dildos worn by other women in porn, which I personally don't understand. I don't disapprove of it, and maybe some people do enjoy it, but I think it's kind of funny. I don't know if someone else mentioned blowing men, but I can't find it, so I have concluded that you were referring to my post. I just wanted to let it be known that while I am a lesbian and obviously as such do not enjoy engaging in oral sex with men, I do know how much I love giving oral sex to women, and therefore I'm sure many women love giving oral sex to men as well as yourself. enjoy it busties, giving and receiving to and from who and whatever you choose!

just wanted to have a positive post in response
doodlebug
This does not belong in this thread, but I cannot see how to leave it, since my name and integrity have been unnecessarily drawn into the fray. So I will post once and leave the thread, so as not to perpetuate the de-railing.

I find it intolerable when a person continuously behaves in ways that are intrusive, invasive, and that are (whether deliberate, ignorant, or just naive) attempts to breach another person's explicitly-stated boundaries. When a person cannot, or will not, interpret the gentler or more polite ways others ask her/him to step back, then implementing boundaries may indeed require a progressively stronger voice.

And if a person chooses to believe that my assertion of the necessity of respecting boundaries means that I am silencing her/him, or that it makes me domineering, then so be it. That person is free to weep, rage, claim victimhood, manipulate others into taking sides - I don't care. I have no obligation to explain or justify my self-respect.

Done. Bye.
faerietails
*delurks*

QUOTE(maddy29 @ Jan 19 2007, 07:55 PM) *

i don't know why you and others are still talking about "being a good-enough feminist" since i NEVER said anything about that! grr! that's really frustrating. go back and read my posts, ignore the angry snarkiness and just read th em, because i didn't say that anyone is a bad feminist, or if you shave your pits you aren't a good enough feminist, i never said that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i swear i'm going to tear all my hair out!!!!!!!!!! if people can't understand the difference between being a feminist, and a feminist or not so feminist act, then there's just nothing i can say. it's like, i'm a vegetarian, but a few months ago i ate a tiny piece of chicken. that was an "un-vegetarian act" because, i ate meat, which is not vegetarian. it doesn't mean i'm not a good enough vegetarian, or that i'm not a vegetarian at all....gah. sigh.


i know you say that you're not trying to come from this position of authority, but when you say things like, "if people can't understand the difference between being a feminist, and a feminist or not so feminist act...", that's exactly what you sound like.

i've also taken my share of women's studies courses, hell, i'm working on my MA in women's history right now, and the subject of defining feminism is always a huge, debate-filled issue. personally, i think the fundamental principle of feminism is the desire of equal political, economic, and social rights between women and men. after that, there are just so many ways feminism branches out, so i don't think there really are correct "feminist acts" and "non-feminist acts."

there are so many different feminisms out there, and they're not always going to agree with each other. i don't think shaving your underarms and legs is any less of a feminist act than me NOT shaving my underarms or legs, or vice versa. same with implants, or skirt-wearing, or applying makeup daily, or anything else, including the enjoyment (or disapproval) of porn.
maddy29
hmm, this is really interesting. i really liked the post made by lapis. very good points made.

re: my feminist authority-i totally see how what i said sounded like that, totally get it! i guess for me, i just assumed certain things-like that the feminists here have sort of an understanding about certain things, which obviously is just not true!

the way that i was thinking about "feminist acts" was more about how we struggle with choices as feminists. i listed a few fairly trivial ones, but i struggle with other stuff too-like getting married, when gay people still can't....i've been thinking about that stuff lately-how DO we make our choices, living as a feminist in a sexist world. how do we choose our battles? what things do we let go cause we just don't have the energy? etc. perhaps that should've been it's own thread. and like someone said- how do we walk that fine line between being a doormat and being "a bitch." this is all real stuff that all of us have to deal with. that's really all i was talking about with the feminist choices, etc. i get how that angered/angers people, but it really wasn't about judging each others feminist-ness...

re: disagreements on the boards-i too, think they are valuable learning tools. they challenge me, force me to think waaaay beyond myself, they get me to talk to people irl about things that i might never otherwise! they are hard though, it's hard to be angry at a person or group that you care about and respect. it's hard to feel silenced by that same group.

i think it's tough-some threads need to be safe spaces, but like someone else said, some threads need to be totally open so that people can grow through disagreement, etc. i don't want to feel like i have to edit what i say all the time here- i want to be able to say "this is my opinion, these are my feelings" and not get yelled at for it smile.gif even if it's upsetting! even if my opinion is prejudiced, or whatever. (i'm not defending my posts in the bdsm thread here...)

pepper
thank you so much tes for taking the time to respond and keeping it so neutral while still dealing with such personal issues. i really appreciated your words and insight, you're an illuminated woman.
i have had a few people react to me in a similar way, intimidated by my forwardness and strength of character and assuming that i am something because i am strong and confident. it's always a bit startling and odd to me but i have a good sense of myself and manage to take it in stride and at least learn a lesson about how i may be perceived by some. it's a positive thing if i choose to take it as such, and i do.
the true test of character, for me though, are the people who love me and consider me a good friend. they are all fabulous people who i admire and they return the sentiment. i'm sure you experience the same thing.
much love.
sixelacat
maddy, girlbomb started a thread last summer discussing just such questions as you've raised-what is feminism to you (and how does it inform your choices)? I bumped it if anyone would like to have that discussion....
tesao
sixelacat, muito thank you for bumping the still a feminist thread! great idea and great place for the interesting feminism conversation happening in here to move to!

pepper, thank you.

not wearing words, i admire you for coming in and addressing my original question. it must have been in response to your post! even though i don't remember it being in reference to a strap on.

talking about THAT: i've used strap ons with both women and men. i never had any desire whatsoever for any of my female partners to fellate my strap on. with MEN, though.....it is a total gender bender to wear a strap on around a male lover and to tell him to "suck my cock" and have him DO IT. it was one of those "whoaaaaaaaaaaaaa" experiences for both of us, and we enjoyed the frell out of it. TOTALLY new experience for him. it is so interesting to me how much of all of this, including porn, is in the way we experience something, the way our minds respond to it, and not necessarily so much the actual visualization as stimulus.

there are so many different genres of porn: those that have (sometimes silly) story lines, those that are just wall to wall, those that show real people who look real and who are actually having a good time doing what they are doing -- not going for the money shot, two women enjoying each other for each other, and not for the benefit of some man that is with them, watching the people's faces when they climax, where the man (if it is heterosexual) doesn't pull out and comes inside his partner, which, let's face it, is more the norm in real life.

i don't like pigeonholing anything. the word porn encompasses SO much, i don't see how we can put labels on it.

again, not wearing words, thank you SO much for braving the "fray" and coming back in to respond to my original post. ~*~*~*~*~*~ warm fuzzies for you ~*~*~*~*~*~*~
maddy29
so, am i really the only busty that wants to talk about bdsm? (not in a glorifying way) just curious, because i still have a lot i want to talk about, but if everyone here is pretty much just yay bdsm! then i'll find somewhere else to discuss it....

if there are people who want to talk about it-where would i post, seeing as the actual bdsm thread is off limits?

greenbean
maddy, did you see my post in outrage?
I thought we could discuss it there. Heres that post if you didnt read it yet.
http://www.bust.com/lounge/index.php?s=&am...st&p=129295

Maybe you could read the debate that goes on in "I Blame the Patriarchy", to see that you certainly are not alone in your views on BDSM or Taken In Hand.

I don't think everyone on Bust is "Yay, BDSM", I just think that they are of the 'live and let live' mentality.
I'd be happy to discus this stuff with you, but I may not get to it today because I have to leave the computer for a bit.
maddy29
yep, i saw it, i just wanted to see if anyone here wanted to talk about it, cause i don't want to bother posting about it if no one wants to talk about it...( i mean i know you'll talk about it but if it's just me and you might not be worth it, since we disagree so much)

i'll check out that other site...thanks.

maddy29
wowzah greenbean-thanks for the site rec-i'm just starting to read through some archives-there's actually a critique of bust (the magazine) on there that i'm skimming through....it's really great, addressing many of the things that i struggle with here. excellent! thanks smile.gif
greenbean
See? Thats what I'm saying. There are certainly more "feminist" sites out there. I think you would probably be happier over there with the "blamers" gang. I dont mean that as snarky, I am trying to be sincere and show you a place that has more of your mindset. Like I said before, I appreciate that there are angry, militant feminists out there, I'm just not one of them (not all the time anyhow).

As far as a discussion here, I didn't think we disagreed THAT much, but fine. I'll respect the fact that you don't want to have a one on one discussion, so if I'm the ONLY one who wants to discuss the issue then I will stay mum. But if you can find another Bustie or two who wants to team up with you and rag on other women's sex lives, I will reserve my right to defend my view.
maddy29
hmm, not snarky? are you sure? smile.gif

i'm an angry feminist, militant? nope.

i'm fine with having a one on one discussion with you, i'm just not sure it'd be worth either of our time- especially considering you (and MANY others) think that all i want to do is "rag on other women's sex lives." whatEVER! this is exactly the kind of BS that has been frustrating me here! no matter what i say about bdsm you and others will always take it as me saying you are sick and disgusting-words which i have not used but people keep attributing to me. you have your mind made up about this, i don't. i don't really see how a discussion with just you and me would work, anyways. whatever i say will be seen as ganging up on other busties. whatever i say will be seen as passing judgment on how femininst or not feminist i think someone is. bleh. doesn't leave much room for an open honest discussion.

i doubt any bustie would even dare to talk about bdsm here at this point, if they don't agree with the masses. sad, but i guess you guys should be proud that you've effectively silenced other women, and in fact an entire topic of discussion. good job! way to go! pat yourselves on the back. i'm not just aiming this to you greenbean, but i read SO MANY hateful posts about me, mostly people who did not comprehend what i was even talking about. but it really fills me with disgust, that i can't say what i want here. that it's not ok for me to challenge anyone else-god forbid!!!!!! and most of all, that it's not ok for me to challenge or critique things that are accepted here.

but whatever, i'm just an angry militant overly emotional self-centered opinionated jekyl and hyde freakazoid who gets off on making fun of other women's sex lives......so who cares what i have to say? i couldn't possibly contribute to a conversation because I disagree with you and others. and it's clear that NO ONE here wants to hear that.

it's sad, and confusing-this board is. all this talk about supporting women, and feminism, but when it comes right down to it, it's only if i say it really nice, and play nice, and agree with everyone else. gah. i'm getting myself all riled up again and it's not even worth it. it is disappointing though, because i feel like this IS a great forum for so many things-to see that people are so unwilling to challenge themselves is just sad to me.




greenbean
Yes, I am sure that I'm not being snarky. Honestly, I feel for you Maddy. I am lucky enough to have found a group of women that enjoy the same things I do. I am not smug about it, but i am delighted. But I also really do sympathize that you dont feel like you have support here. I feel no satisfaction in your tormoil, I honestly don't.

Also, I said "if" IF it turns into raggin on other women's sex lives, then I will comment. I'm not saying it necessarily would, but based on comments made in the past, I suspect it might. But if it doesnt get into that territory, then I will leave it be. Mark my word here, I would not disrupt a focused, forward-thinking critique on the sexual practices of consenting adults and how it affects society. You have it in writing.

ETA: "but violence + sex, i do judge." "I just think its sad and unhealthy" "I don't see why it's ok for you to say you like it and it's not ok for me to say that it sickens and disturbs me"...these are statements you made that have me and others feel judged, and yes, you have indeed called our practices 'sick', just to let you know.
lapis
Ok, Maybe you have discussed it in this way but I haven't read it. It seems like there are two ways (at least) to think about BDSM (and porn, really): as an intellectual issue and as a practice. BDSM can seem like a big problem when thinking of the female as submissive within the context of patriarchy--how is it not completely repeating everything bad about sex discrimination? But what about men as submissive? What about female doms? So, there is this set of questions you can follow in thinking about BDSM as a feminist conundrum. It makes me wonder what sexual practices could be considered feminist anyway-maybe different kinds of queer sex or non-procreative hetero sex (women on top, etc). You could argue that any sex with a woman actively engaging with her pleasure (which might broadly include anything but rape) functions as feminist, in some way. My question is: what makes sexual expressions feminist? Can sex be subversive toward gender inequality? I think this is the work feminism might take on: to stop stigmatizing certain sexualities. If certain things are "bad," what options remain? How can individuals insert play and subversion into their personal choices? What kinds of creative spaces are there to deal with power, gender difference, and pleasure? And what makes some unaceptable to certain people?

And then as a practice, you could think of BDSM as feminist on some interesting levels--it feels good to some people, and that could be good enough reason to call it feminist. It may be a way for women to reenact and recast past sexual violence and own it (like take back the night movements or reusing the word queer). It could work as parody, bringing up everyday discrimination and power plays on a different level, an erotic one. I think one of the reasons conflict continues to surround BDSM has to do with how deeply subjective it can be--what does it feel like for someone to completely surrender themselves (their pleasure, safety, very being) to another person in a loving relationship? What does it feel like for a rich doctor to get fucked in the ass and beaten by his personal dominatrix after a long day of caring for people? As a practice BDSM could be a place to work some things out, like some people practice letting go through meditation--this could be a ritualized letting go of self.

Maybe hetero porn is different but I think it still could be construed as feminist--because much of it does center on the woman's pleasure--and because porn stars get paid pretty well and sign contracts to perform things based on consent. Consent may be at the core of how some of these things, which appear unequal at a first reading, actually happen and actually have benefit.

And some people could argue that people who disapprove of BDSM are actually perpetuating the gender inequalities they are probably fighting against by keeping them outside of parody or pleasure, by preserving and sanctifying inequality because it can't be played with...Just some thoughts.
wombat
lapis... hmm... you make me wonder how many posters on bust have multiple user names.

My last post was about the difficulties in talking about BDSM, sexuality, family, and the way all those things interact with each other. I think we can all have common courtesy and common sense and continue the conversations and relationships in a reasonable manner.

There are a lot of very strong emotional reactions to this material, as it taps into the core of people's psyches.

In this thread, and every other thread, I'm not trying to say anybody has made me a victim. They'd certainly have a hard time ;-)

I don't manipulate, nor do I claim victimhood as some sort of power play. That's an accusation that doodlebug has leveled against other people in other threads about other issues. That's something that is in her way of seeing things, not mine.

I'm not hanging on to the conflict I had with her, I've already apologized to her on the Caregivers thread and on another, if she's not hearing it or responding to it, well, that is her choice. I am not holding a grudge.

The reason I mentioned the dust-up in the Okayers thread is because, as I mentioned on the Fun with Floggers thread itself, I don't have problems with BDSM, but the red flags are raised when practical concerns are not addressed. It was horribly difficult and contentious to talk about them there. I'm not blaming anyone -- I'm just saying. It has some bearing on the extreme emotions that people are expressing about the issue now.

Minx
I am sure that Minx handled most things very well most of the time, I am sure she and her child have a good relationship and that she is doing a fine job in every part of her life, it was only that I wanted to register a warning about a particular aspect that she might not have considered. Tesao has been advising her via PM, as they both mentioned in the okayers thread, so there certainly is no possibility that this would be "behind back" and, Tesao's advice to Minx is most likely a good thing.

Okayers
I like them. I miss them. But, I figured if I have been getting too annoyed too many times in the last couple of months, that it is not the right place for me. I'm changing, and we are just moving in different directions. I'm glad to see them and talk to them elsewhere on the Bust site.

Tesao
You have many good things to say on the Bust boards, I recognize that.

I have enjoyed your sexual posts and information when they occur in the sexuality threads. I know we all talk and joke about sex elsewhere on the boards also, but I do get a whiff of inappropriateness, sometimes.

You have in fact been territorial about the sex threads, and hostile toward me on this board from the very beginning of my posting here. Just in clever, catty, petty little ways. I have tried to resolve this before, and it hasn't worked. Soooo -- I think there is a deeper issue at work there. Perhaps you simply dislike me, or maybe I'm a threat in some obscure way. I'm just red flagging it and moving on, I'm not trying to change who you are, what you do or say, or how you post.

Your relationships with other people here are between you and them. You and they will see them the way you see them -- that's fine. To me it looks like you always make sure you curry favor with some so you can count on their defending you when you step over the line with others. But, that's my point of view, I'm not asking anyone to share it.

I am neither threatened nor intimidated by your strength, compassion, confidence, sexuality, wealth, beauty, accomplishments, aggression or intelligence, I have all of those things myself. I am happy to see other people with them as well, and there are many of us here who have them.

It was difficult for me to post that Jan 20 post. I'm not perfect, either. I don't think I am.

***
I find all of you to be worthwhile people, so I think you are worth a struggle now and again.

Sorry for not following up sooner. I should have posted most of this post sooner, but I didn't want my post to be as long as your arm -- I'm SOOO guilty of long, long posts. I spent the weekend meeting new friends, hosting old friends, and seeing my boyfriend's Dad for his 90th birthday. I knew it would take some time for me to make sure I was articulating things well, so I left it for Monday.

Anyway, although i don't want anyone to be calling each other by any sort of "--stain" names, I am sorry that girl_trouble left, and that Maddy29 is still upset -- I hope we can manage to keep dealing with feminism and all kinds of sex within the Bust boards with as few difficulties as possible. It is also good that Tesao is staying, and I am NOT wanting her to leave.

Anyway......





lapis
QUOTE(wombat @ Jan 22 2007, 08:39 PM) *

lapis... hmm... you make me wonder how many posters on bust have multiple user names.


Um. Actually I am just me and really new to this. It seems hard, as a newbie, to post anything without tapping into interpersonal conversations and long histories. I am really excited about participating though. Needless to say, some of your post was lost on me.
wombat
Nothing personal, lapis, I've been wondering that in a fair amount of threads lately.
doodlebug
wombat/whammybar, you are an absolute twisted-up liar.

Leaving aside trolls, there is only ONE other bustie I've ever called manipulative - though I didn't handle it in a way that met everyone's approval, I stand behind my words, and I won't let you force a rehash of it here. And there are ZERO other busties I've ever called victim-players.

As I've said before, do a search if you think you are so bloody "right" all the time. I will absolutely let my reputation and my integrity on these boards speak for themselves.

And yeah, I read your apology, which was posted inappropriately, and had very little to do with the real problem I had, which, again, I have called you on a number of times, including over the fiasco in Okayland: your intrusive, invasive, boundary-crossing behaviour. Unfortunately, you seem to have choosen to believe that I was only talking about one incident in my last post.

I have no grudges - I'm so over the crap you spread around in Okayland (which everyone is free to read for themselves), you have no idea - but YOU are the one who can't seem to let anything go. I'd like to remind you that it was YOU who dragged the PAST into this thread and began going off on people, including me, whom you accused of silencing you during an incident/incidents that happened months ago.

Yes, this is angry and harsh, but I've spent months and years trying to talk with you in kinder, more supportive ways, and you just don't seem to understand/care how you offend others, including me. You seem to believe you have the absolute RIGHT to judge and attack people and get up in their faces (often under the guise of offering your unsolicited "help"), even after they tell you to BACK OFF.

Go ahead and deny all of this, but I'm not the only one who sees through your bullshit.

Go fuck yourself. Seriously.
yuefie
I realize this has nothing to do with me and is really not any of my business. But my goodness, can one really be so oblivious?

Wombat: So it's perfectly acceptable behavior to drag issues and/or other people's business that has been discussed in one thread in to another thread? Then so be it. I debated on whether or not I should address my concerns/state my opnions in a PM. But since this is how you want it, this is how you get it.

I thought at first maybe you were having a tough time communicating, as it seems to you often to. Socially inept? Perhaps. It seems most people around here have been willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, even after you've stepped on countless toes. But hey, lets call a spade a spade now. Seriously. Let's not beat around the bush. YOU are rude, You are JUDGEMENTAL. Always under the guise of "concern" or wanting to "help" for someone elses own "good". What it really is, is your need for superiority. Or the feeling of it, rather. And for all your talk of others and their sense of entitlement, it sure as hell seems that you feel you *are* entitled to harass people about their personal lives and make judgment calls on their decisions.


What gives you the right to use the current issues particular BUSTies are having with eachother as an opportunity to bring up an issue you have (because, quite frankly, who in the hell are you anyway?) about the parenting of another BUSTie that occurred quite some time ago in an entirely different thread. Is minx in here to defend herself? Is her sex life any of your business? NO. If she were involving her child IN her sex life and bragging about it then yes, you would have a right to say something. If she were sleeping with her students, then you would, by all rights. But it is none of your business what a grown woman does in terms of her sexuality. And you can't accuse me of coming to the defense of a "friend" because though I've seen her posts around here, I've never had any personal exchange with her. I am just shocked and quite appalled at your arrogance.

And no, this is not the first time. I've just thought it better to mind my own business. But since you seem to want to dredge up the past, and drag others in to a fight that has nothing to do with them, it seems fair enough. Judging from your track record, it appears you enjoy riling people up. Cry for attention perhaps?


Your continued harassment of tesao and your accusations of her picking at you are just laughable. Classic projection. You are not even worth her time or effort. She's tried to discuss the issues with you, but you have your mind made up. And simpy typing the words that you do not have to agree or get along all the while continuing to slight her just shows who is really the hostile one. You've attacked her sexuality, her domestic situation, her motivations for the work she does, which frankly makes my stomach turn. You must think yourself to be high and mighty. What exactly are you doing to fight the plight of AIDS in Africa? I mean, seeing as you seem to be the resident expert on all.

You must know, somewhere deep inside, how pathetic you come across. I thought the PM you sent me about my post in the caregivers thread was nice, if not a bit out of left field. Obviously you are aware, on some level that you often offend people with your grandiose proclamations and know it all stance. Why else would you need to make these preemptive strikes? Oh yeah, because you are pompous and down right rude. I thought it better to keep that opinion to myself but you know, you are right, We should not be silenced.

And with that, I am out.






bunnyb
projection - check
manipulation - check
arrogance - check

sorry wombat, dear, but you're deluded. 90% of this board see you for what you actually are and the shit you pulled in the okayers thread was out of order (on several occasions) but it wasn't the place of non-okayers to step in; although I was compelled to, on one occasion, when you attacked tesao for having a maid (in a third world country where her employment is needed). Hmmm, I'm seeing a pattern here. Now that you're spreading this negative, manipulative crap across the lounge it's time for it to all be out in the open; why should we be silent?

Oh and "you make me wonder how many posters on bust have multiple user names"? paranoid much?
tesao
dear lapis: please don't be scared off! i really enjoyed your post and hope that we can discuss some of what you brought up at a later time.

for the record, i would be willing to discuss BDSM in this thread as long as it was kept to neutral discussion, no name calling, no assumptions about something that others have never tried. i recognize that it can be disturbing to someone who is a survivor of rape or incest or other sex crimes, but it really is between two consenting adults. i'd be willing to try, anyway, for the record. so that would be two other people willing to have that discussion, myself and lapis (who despite being a newbie, seems to know exactly what she is doing, and i very much hope that she sticks around!)
maddy29
hey greenbean-i was just kidding around with the snark comment-i mean, it did sound a bit snarky but i know you didn't mean it like that.

i DO find a LOT Of support at this board, and i don't want that to be left unsaid. it's just that when i disagree about certain things, i feel silenced. but that certainly doesn't mean i feel that all the time here, or that i haven't been so grateful for the support i've gotten here.

i said that it sickens me, NOT that i think YOU or anyone else is sick. maybe that's no different to you, but one is stating my personal feelings and the other is casting a judgement on you. i think it's a big difference. and ya know, people can feel offended, and that's fine. they can either ignore me, yell at me, try to help me understand better, or whatever they want-that's their right! it's not like i haven't been judged or called names on this board-prude, vanilla, etc etc etc. But I'm not trying to silence anyone else.

i get that i t hurts to have someone say something negative about somethign you do. of course i get that. all i wanted was to have a conversation about it-lapis has brought up a number of excellent topics, and did it in a very nice way. Maybe the conversation can happen now, although i just think it's going to all end up in the same place. who knows though..

i really did like the way you split that up lapis-i was thinking last night-that i don't have any real problem with anyone doing whatever the heck they want with their partner/s/ or whoever-as long as it's consensual of course. i me an, i really don't care if people like whatever-i mean, i don't like swallowing, and i think i'ts pretty gross, but some people love it! i can still think it's gross (for me, personally, my opinion), and i accept that other people feel totally differently about it! but should i not be allowed to say i think it's gross? of course i should be! that's MY opinion. just like someone else can describe eating cum with a spoon, and say they love that.....

so for most things, i just don't care what others like-cause people make their own choices and that's fine....

i think the few things that hold me back from just being all "live and let live" are:

1. what are the political/cultural/societal repercussions of engaging in things like watching mainstream porn, bdsm, sex work, etc etc?

2. a concern for the people who are getting off by being hurt. i do worry that people are used to being submissive, and that's more comfortable for them, or that people are really just expressing their self-hatred through these acts of violence. I worry that people are just fooling themselves when they say they need violence and power games to be able to trust each other. this concerns me.

hmm, i know there was another thing but it just flew right outta my mind.



wombat
Well, I'm not going to resort to name-calling, doodlebug.

I'm not "lying" or "twisting", obviously I am telling too much of the truth.

***

Yuefie. I think a lot of this fighting and hurt feelings and talk about safe space around porn and BDSM has come about because it was not kept to the BDSM thread but was brought to other threads throughout the lounge, including that one.

Maddy is feeling beleagured, that she can't dispute any part of sexuality without being ganged-up on, that's it's being shoved at her. That's what I gather from her posts. I also felt that way. Of couse, she (and I) are being over-emotional about it. But, that's "woman speak" you know, you can't confront without saying "You should know I had this problem in my past" or "this really hurts me because it reminds me" instead of saying "I am angry about this" Then we hold back our anger until it comes out in a way that is difficult to deal with, and obscures the actual issue at hand.

I appreciate Greenbean's posts, and Tesao's knowledge, and Pepper and girl_trouble mentioned sites where there is helpful information to distinguish between abuses or possible damage that can come from BDSM practice. I think Greenbean mentioned a good site as well.

***
I am not talking about anyone's business in public in any way that they themselves did not talk about it in public. If you discuss details of your personal life in a thread on the internet, others are entitled to respond to it and discuss it as well. It was not accurate for Tesao to say I was talking about Minx behind her back about this issue in a thread she would not read. In the okayers thread, after Minx was talking about how to handle various things, she and Tesao would mention about how they were PM ing each other, got cut off, etc. So, there's no way she wouldn't know about this thread.

***
Yuefie. Yes, it occurs to me, I shouldn't try to help or be like somebody's Mom. That is a fault of mine. I'm not saying, that's a fault of mine that is so lovable, ha ha, or, claiming that if I am a certain age or have had therapy that it makes my faults acceptable and others should just handle them. I am working on that "advice, pompous, know it all" and trying not to bring it to new situations.

No, I'm not trying to make judgement calls on their decisions. There is a part of "intrusiveness" I will be proud to stick to, and that is standing up against abuse when I see it happening. If you read what I posted then or now, I am not saying anything of the kind about Minx. I said I had one caveat I felt I should speak up about, and then as now, what rains down on my head? Yes, I think this is how Maddy29 feels. And girl_trouble, as you know, has left, and it's not because of me.

***

What is the substance of Tesao's latest post besides, "we have to discuss and feel my way about BDSM?"

Porn -- is it cock-blocking feminism?
That is the title of the thread. It is here to discuss the POSITIVE and NEGATIVE feelings people have about porn, and some pornographic material includes BDSM, and some BDSM-like relationships are in fact real abuse, and there is a potential for real abuse to happen within them, a distinction girl_trouble made better than anyone, and some porn is genuinely abusive as well, girlbomb made THAT point in the best way. I support and enjoy BDSM and porn myself, within limits set by me, as it should be. Within limits each person sets for themselves.

Yet, Tesao insists over and over again that everyone has to like it. Yes, in the middle of a debate about porn, her adding minute details of her own come-eating is crossing a line. She's running movies of details of her own personal sex life in a discussion that was about visual porn and how others feel about it. That disrespects the woman she was disputing with.

***

bunny_b and others are right that I have been foolish.

I have done something I should not have done. I have tried to advocate and intervene in the way people cope with mental illness, in themselves and in others.

(when I say "you" in the following, I mean it in the generic sense, it's not directed at bunny_b individually)

I have tried to point out that there are certain things that will make them descend into more severe dysfunction and misery. Those things are: bullying others, having sex without considering emotional, social, financial and physical consequences, eating poorly, substance abuse, and becoming dependent on one's family wealth and the things it buys, instead of making sure that you can stand on your own.

The way upward is to take care of your physical health as well as possible, and to keep free of being ensnared in intense, distorted relationships as much as possible. There is a moral component. The more you're trying to get away with something, the more tension and lies and other distress.

I had hoped that my experience that I gained coping with a mentally ill father and a depressive mother, who had a syndrome that was either fibromyalgia (undefined and undiagnosed at the time) or something like it -- and a sister who used sex and money and a great deal of coldness to escape from the family -- I thought that one of the only productive uses of that history, or of confessing to it on the Bust boards, would be to shed light on those things and help the newer generation get through with as few negative consequences as possible. I thought I had reasonable success and hard-gained knowledge as an adult, as well, so that I could speak in an informed way.

But, I'm wrong to attempt to intervene, it's as if I'm trying to do therapy with an ice pick.

People are going to go through their own process, within their own real lives -- non-internet -- with their own families, medical professionals, and others they trust. It's hard to see someone making destructive choices, it's hard not to chime in when others are discussing their lives in full detail, as well. But, really, everyone needs to learn from experience, from their own lives, so I need to chalk up the past to the past, the best way to move on is never to mention it. And not get roped in when others want desperately to rope me or ---whoever -- in. Just smile and encourage and go on to another topic.

I find it sad that you accuse me of various disturbances and you hurl those like insults, bunny_b and others on the Bust board who have done that. That has happened more than once here, and not just to me. Believe me, I would know for sure if I was disturbed and deluded, etc. I'm very aware and have been very active in fighting for and maintaining a realistic and healthy world view and habits, ever since I was a small child, finding mentors outiside the family, consulting a therapist when I went to college to make sure I wasn't harboring dysfunctional patterns due to family influence, making sure I didn't bring those into adulthood.

I find it sad that you hurl those things as insults when you are angry at someone, because it tells me that you feel self-hatred and shame about the conditions you stated you have, yourself. I hope you feel that way as little as possible.

***

Looking into the abyss and the abyss looks back into me. Yes, that's what I've done. I'm not unreasonable or "paranoid" to see possible danger in a person who has extremely high self-regard and brags about taking advantage of others, brags about being cruel to others, is highly sexualized, and is diagnosed as mentally ill. That is a malignant narcissim, a kind of person sometimes called a sociopath. It is also common for such people to join churches, charities and hospitals, doling out kindness to maintain a position of authority.

That is according to Alice Miller in For Your Own Good, Scott Peck in People of the Lie, and Gavin Lambert in The Gift of Fear. not according to me.

However, I am wrong because it is not my place, my privilege or my authority or expertise to "diagnose" anyone here.

It was foolish of me to attempt to confront or interrupt posting that borders upon that worldview. That is something that is a bit too much to fight, even for people more intimately involved.

The best thing a person can do when you see behavior that verges on that sort of thing is simply to make nice and minimize contact. That is what I have done to some extent, what should have done a lot more, and that is what I shall do.

I do not need to add to the burden of stigma and misery.

I must let my own past be the past, and accept that the only good it can serve me is to be perceptive, and is the basis of my finding and maintaining positive relationships. I have people in my life who are long-term, supportive, realistic people, who are moving in a positive direction, from various backgrounds. I am moving up in my career and will be careful how I respond to negative dynamics there, as well, much more careful than I have been.

bunnyb
The words "head" and "brick wall" spring to mind. "Sanctimonious" too.

"What is the substance of Tesao's latest post besides, "we have to discuss and feel my way about BDSM?"" Is that a direct quote? from where? Tes speaks about the subject with passion and enthusiasm, but in no way is she bullying people to view it her way; in fact, as she has said below, she is willing to have an open and frank discussion about it "for the record, i would be willing to discuss BDSM in this thread as long as it was kept to neutral discussion, no name calling, no assumptions about something that others have never tried. i recognize that it can be disturbing to someone who is a survivor of rape or incest or other sex crimes, but it really is between two consenting adults. i'd be willing to try, anyway, for the record. so that would be two other people willing to have that discussion, myself and lapis (who despite being a newbie, seems to know exactly what she is doing, and i very much hope that she sticks around!)"

"I find it sad that you hurl those things as insults when you are angry at someone, because it tells me that you feel self-hatred and shame about the conditions you stated you have, yourself. I hope you feel that way as little as possible", which conditions? thank you for your concern but I do not feel self-hatred and shame.; for being generic, it seems to be directed at someone.

"I am not talking about anyone's business in public in any way that they themselves did not talk about it in public. If you discuss details of your personal life in a thread on the internet, others are entitled to respond to it and discuss it as well. It was not accurate for Tesao to say I was talking about Minx behind her back about this issue in a thread she would not read. In the okayers thread, after Minx was talking about how to handle various things, she and Tesao would mention about how they were PM ing each other, got cut off, etc. So, there's no way she wouldn't know about this thread." This is very skewed logic; it's acceptable then to speak about someone behind their back because someone else is bound to inform them?

"I'm not unreasonable or "paranoid" to see possible danger in a person who has extremely high self-regard and brags about taking advantage of others, brags about being cruel to others, is highly sexualized, and is diagnosed as mentally ill. That is a malignant narcissim, a kind of person sometimes called a sociopath. It is also common for such people to join churches, charities and hospitals, doling out kindness to maintain a position of authority." My paranoia comment was directed at (the quote) of your thoughts on posters using more than one handle; but now you're calling tesao (and minx, I take it) narcissistic sociopaths? riiiiiiiight.

mandolyn
*delurks*

wombat, if you're a pillar of mental health, i'll take tesao - 'the dysfunctional, miserable sociopath' - anyday.

why can't you just accept that she's well-loved here? and so is minx. and doodlebug. your personal attacks on them just make us want to circle the wagons even more fiercely. so, really, you're wasting your breath even attempting to explain your actions. nevermind that your reasoning is invariably convoluted, contradictory and borderline demented.

any unpleasantness that's 'rained down on your head', now or in your similar martyr-like whammy persona, you've brought on yourself.

please quit your personal attacks? and please consider peddling your "truth" someplace else? you've cemented your reputation here too firmly for anyone to ever take you even remotely seriously. believe it or not, i'm actually offering this as kindly advice.

*relurks*
pepper
n/m
wombat
Um, what limited "attacking" I have done, I already stopped it in that post.

I understand your need to see me that way.

***
In non-internet social situations, I have sometimes been the only friend a person who otherwise felt left out has had. I'm not doing that anymore. More recently, I've avoided being that kind of person's friend a bit too obviously, where they felt slighted and judged.

I need to just say encouraging and neutral things, and that's that.

I thought the internet was different, as it is more removed, I am wrong to think that.

***
You need to see me that way, and speak about me that way, and justify yourself, I can't stop you and I have no interest in trying to stop you.

***
I'm going to have the strength and maturity to put out nothing but a bunch of smiles and encouragement, other than that, avoidance. That is indeed the best path.
bunnyb
delusion: Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

you stopped attacking? get real wombat; in what world is calling someone a narcissistic socipath not attacking?

I honestly do not mean this as an insult but, as yuefie said, how can someone be so oblivious? your posts read like a crazy person's; mando is right, you're not a pillar of mental health.

I really think you need to go away and search out those mentors and trained individuals again because you may not have had issues as a child but you certainly do now.
doodlebug
wombat wrote: 'I don't manipulate, nor do I claim victimhood as some sort of power play. That's an accusation that doodlebug has leveled against other people in other threads about other issues. That's something that is in her way of seeing things, not mine.' (emphasis mine)

So I wrote: 'wombat/whammybar, you are an absolute twisted-up liar. Leaving aside trolls, there is only ONE other bustie I've ever called manipulative - though I didn't handle it in a way that met everyone's approval, I stand behind my words, and I won't let you force a rehash of it here. And there are ZERO other busties I've ever called victim-players. As I've said before, do a search if you think you are so bloody "right" all the time.'

And wombat replied with: 'Well, I'm not going to resort to name-calling, doodlebug. I'm not "lying" or "twisting", obviously I am telling too much of the truth.'

Which kinda proves my point. You are unwilling to seek the proof that would back up your accusation and show me wrong....because I'm NOT wrong. I know what I've said, and I stand behind all of it. So that makes you, wombat/whammybar, a LIAR (it's not name-calling if it's true - as evidenced above). Not to mention being a slanderer. And apparently, you are also someone who is completely delusional and/or in denial. Yes. You should try running for politics, you've got the game all down pat.
LoveMyPugs
why is it that all the shit storms start in the porn thread?

&

why are you guys all so hard on the newbies? This site doesn't come with an instruction manual when you sign up. Many of us just feel our way through. Some of you need to lighten up a little. Watch some porn. It always helps me!
bunnyb
where's the newbie in this thread (apart from lapis, and noone has been nasty to her)?

also, if you want to offer your opinion, we have been discussing how to be more newbie friendly in the problems with the website thread.
maddy29
QUOTE
Watch some porn. It always helps me!


niiiice
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