Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: "porn: Is It Cock-blocking Feminism?"
The BUST Lounge > Forums > The F-Word
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16
wombat
Okay, for the last time:

I think BDSM is fine and can be perfectly feminist.
I have indulged in it somewhat myself, so I *GET* what you like about it.
Still, since it does access very deep feelings in a person, it is understandable that people react strongly to it.
All information about it is good, since that can take away the possibility that genuine physcial harm will occur.

I am not calling Tesao a sociopath, although I admit it's close enough.
I say I am put off by the fact that she meets some parts of that profile.
However, I am NOT QUALIFIED TO DIAGNOSE SUCH A THING.
Those two things above are exactly what I said, and exactly what I meant.
And even if I did out-and-out try to convince you she was, it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever either on the Bust boards or in real life.
I appreciate, genuinely, her many good points, and I am not telling you not to like her.
She and I, obviously, don't get along, but I'm not following her around the lounge harassing her.
I am sorry that that possibility, and my mentioning it, is so very negative -- it is very negative, there is no way of getting around that.
I did in fact say that I think she crosses the line sometimes.

The reason that is relevant to this discussion is because I think this would be a less reactive, contentious thread if we talked about sexual material rather than posting examples of sexual material.

Yes, you are entitled to like and dislike whomever you choose, and I respect that.
There is room for all of us, that's what makes this an interesting place, that is also what causes problems sometimes.

Yes, I am wrong to speak of intensely personal things.
It is a mistake.
Many people do it here, but, it's a mistake, at least for me.

I am not in any way claiming to be a victim, nor do I think being a victim has any status or privleges attached to it.
I avoid being a victim as much as I can avoid it.
When I made reference to bullying, i was talking about peoople that were bragging on Bust about bullying people in real life.
I do think it is wrong to "pile on" the way we do sometimes.
I think it's fine to be negative, including to be negative to me if i have been negative to you, but I don't think it's fine to gang up just because someone is a friend, irrespective of the discussion at hand.

That is all I am saying with that.
You don't seem to hear me.
I understand that you are upset, and it's fine to say whatever you like, but, this is what I am saying.

This, right here.

***
Doodlebug -- you posted a long long long paste of your entire posting history just because pinkpoodle mentioned one *tiny* criticism of you. You lectured pepper long and brutally in the Confessions thread because she mentioned she didn't like the Childfree by Choice thread. You absolutely insisted that I had bad motives when I mentioned an article about fibromyalgia that I had read. I get that you didn't like what I said or the way I said it, but insisting that I had bad motives was puzzling.

I honestly am not feeling hate or anger or hostility toward you at this point -- I *was* for awhile. As you know, I PM'd you and you PM'd me back, we called each other names -- anger. yes.

However, on the boards, on the threads, I checked myself when I was angry at you. I apologized for misunderstanding or for not respecting your space. I didn't PM you again, I talked to you on the board itself, because you told me you did not want me to PM you. I respected that. I figured the Okay thread was your thread and your space, and I left. As I said, I am happy to talk with the other Okayers, elswhere on the board. I have given you space.

I honestly felt I didn't belong there any more for reasons that had nothing to do with you, as well.

But some of it was that I don't think your shutting down of an important discussion about BDSM, as well as some other things, was a good thing to do. I don't think it helped. That is what I am saying here. Only that.

No, I don't use "vicitm" and "manipulative" in my posts, and you do use them in yours.
That is what I meant when I said that that is coming from your way of thinking,

***
Feminism and how it applies to women's personal choices can often make people really angry.

Sometimes heated discussions are going to happen.

Me, I would prefer not to get overly intimate. Many of us here have gotten very intimate about our personal lives, it is something women do to bond.

In retrospect, it is a mistake, I think I'm "giving" to people and "defending" from people but ultimately, this is a board for more general, more surface level public discussions. Folks who have more special and vulnerable interests, such as various kinds of sex or various kinds of illnesses or ??? simply their own careers or interests might be better off talking about them on other sites.

At least for me, that is true.

girlygirlgag
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Jan 23 2007, 09:23 PM) *

niiiice



it's called sarcasm, making a funny? Have you ever heard of it? tongue.gif

QUOTE(wombat @ Jan 23 2007, 03:57 PM) *



***
You need to see me that way, and speak about me that way, and justify yourself, I can't stop you and I have no interest in trying to stop you.




Tha is awfully sanctimonious of someone who has insinuated that complete strangers are sociopaths, due to your internet association with them.

I suggest you back away from the keyboard before you do more damage.


This thread seems to be arguing itself into a corner. No more points are being made, and everybody is getting hypersensitive.

If I were a moderator I would lock it down for awhile.


In fact, *I* (and I don't run the website, I just pretend I do) would suggest a lot of y'all, even the ladies I love/lust, take a breather from this thread. It is time to cool out.
maddy29
um yeah, i've heard of it. i just didn't think it was funny.

yeah, i think cooling off is exactly why there aren't new responses......
bunnyb
neither did I. In fact, I found the whole "lighten up" attitude really condescending. But then, I'm a snarky bitch.

eta: I'm not cooling off; I, for one, have absolutely no interest anymore.
maddy29
lol bunnyb- me too, but i figured i'm just a humorless feminazi wink.gif
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Jan 23 2007, 10:08 PM) *

um yeah, i've heard of it. i just didn't think it was funny.

yeah, i think cooling off is exactly why there aren't new responses......



Oh, okay. rolleyes.gif

Sorry to offend your good sensibilities. I guess emoticons still are not enough to say "I am not attacking you."

I would have posted sooner, but I was busy working today.
bunnyb
yup, but we can't say anything about it 'cos that's pouncing on a newbie. It grates on my last nerve when people make comments that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand (and drag up other issues).
doodlebug
wombat/whammybar:

1) When poodle criticized me for something - which was posting on nothing but a single topic (my frustrations with work) - I did a COUNT of my post topics for a month, to check whether that was true or not. Unlike you, I actually took an interest in whether or not my posting behaviour was a problem to another person. I posted the COUNT, not my previous posts. I posted it in an apologetic, joking, statistical research way, in order to prove myself NOT to be posting on a single topic. poodle and I immediately resolved the conflict in a way that was satisfactory to both of us. That's the difference - almost everyone but you seems to be able to process conflict and then let it go. I never, ever called poodle "manipulative" or "victim-playing," and if this is the best example you can come up with to slam my conflict-management skills, then you seriously need to get a grip.

2) I am NOT dragging the shit that went down with pepper into this thread. If people are interested, they can read it all in the Sin Bin and the Childfree threads starting September 20, 2006. And NOT Confessions, as you state. (If you're going to accuse me of something, at least do your research.) I stand behind everything I said.

3) I posted a gentler "back off" statement in Okayland the morning after you (again, trying to "help" in that nasty way of yours) drunkenly made bold statements about how I believed I was causing my own fibro pain, and that I thought I was crazy, a nut, etc. (Which was incredibly invasive, by the way - especially given that my fibro was not under discussion AT ALL.) It's right there in black and white, your own words, so stop trying to deny it, for god's sake. (And for those reading at home, this particular incident started on December 28, 2006.) You obviously didn't read my first, gentler response telling you how offended I was, or else you didn't care, because you kept coming at me, like a small, yappy dog with a megaphone. So I used progressively stronger words to get you to back off out of my face. Several other people told you to back off as well. You did NOT back off until I posted three times asking you to back off (including the actual words: "just back the fuck off" - which didn't even stop you). Again, it's all there in black and white. Then when you chose exile from Okay, you PMed me to tell me I was "utterly disconnected from reality," and to call me a "user" and an "asshole," among other things. The response I sent you was indeed nasty, because there seemed to be no other way to get you to leave me alone. I sent it out of my frustration of your unwillingness, STILL, to back the fuck out of my face. And I won't even mention your passive-aggressive postings about me in other threads after the blow-up in Okay.

4) I've never "shut down" any "important discussions" on BDSM. I have, again, tried to get you to respect the boundaries of people like minx and tesao - and especially minx, who's PARENTING has been what you keep criticizing, as though you know anything about her personal life, which YOU DO NOT. And your obvious projection of your own inferiority complex onto tesao is outstanding - calling her a neo-colonialist for going to Africa to provide urgent health care? (Again, for the home readers, this was about a week before Christmas....I can't give you dates on the number of times wombat/whammybar has harassed minx, because it happened many times.) Seriously, what is your damage? If you cannot see what was wrong with hectoring them both as you have repeatedly done in Okay, when it was NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, and even after people TOLD YOU TO BACK OFF, then you really have deeper problems than any of us realize. Again, small, yappy dog, big megaphone, total obliviousness to the boundaries and feelings of others.

5) No, for the millionth time, I never use "victimhood" and "manipulative" in my posts, except the incident mentioned above, and the times I have been forced to direct against you. And as a trained counsellor and group facilitator, I'm well-able to recognize these attributes in others - and if you're going to play that way, then yes, I'm going to call you on it. (Oh, yeah, and when I'm talking about victims of violence, which has been part of my job for, oh, 11 years now, then I do use the word "victim" on occasion.) Again, prove me wrong. You know you can't, otherwise you would have by now.

6) It's amazing to me that you believe you are never in the wrong, that you are never the problem, and that everyone else is wrong and problematic EXCEPT you. Absolutely amazing. It's disgusting. Seriously, how many people have to call you on your shit before you ever get it? When are you going to grow up, stop finger-pointing at everyone else's shit, and own your own? No, don't even answer. You obviously don't have the capacity for such critical thinking, and your responses will be more of the same old unhealthy crap that you always spew.

7) Seriously, get the fuck over yourself.
pepper
well, it did in fact start in there which is where i originally "confessed" that i had peeked into the cbc thread and was upset by what i read (baby shaped pinatas, etc.)
that arguement, like this one, quickly degenerated into a personal mudslinging fiesta too. how do things get so out of control around here anyhow?
doodlebug
Respectfully, pepper, I do not see any posts from you in Confessions dating from that time, and the posts you made during the immediate time before and after (about a month in either direction - I checked, wanting to be sure) don't mention the childfree issues at all. You originally posted your concerns in the Sin Bin.
pepper
oh you're right it was the sin bin. i get those two mixed up i guess. easy mistake.
wombat
Pugs: I thought your post was cute. Eventually we're gonna get back to PRON, right?!

Doodlebug.

My exact words were "You're not a nut!" How on earth did you manage to turn it around like that?

When you accused me of saying you WERE a nut, (??) I explained to you that in the context of the healthcare system, women were called nuts when they reported those symptoms, and that that was not true. Sure enough, when I looked on the internet, the very first sites that came up, from the Mayo Clinic and others, said that people had been told they were imagining it, especially women, and it was important for people to know otherwise.

Somehow I said that you said poodle was manipulative and victim playing? What on earth? I do not know how you interpret things that way. I really don't.

Yeah, I remember you throwing the same "I'm a counselor and I say you are this" at Pepper, too.
And you were wrong then, too.

I am and have been honestly surprised by your interpretations.







OreosMom
QUOTE(erinjane @ Jul 25 2006, 12:33 PM) *

One of the touchiest subjects between feminists is the relationship to sex work/porn/stripping/etc. Rather then further derail the Porn and Boys thread (but you can check it out for a bit of background http://www.bust.com/lounge/index.php?showtopic=52071&hl= ) come on in to this thread and share your thoughts.

What do you define as sex work? Are you pro/against? Why? Do you have a background in it, know anyone involved, are you involved? As Pixie asked, Does anyone see it as conforming to the sterotypes that feminists are against? Does it hurt or hinder feminism?
Just a few questions to get us thinking. So throw out some thoughts!

*I'm just running out the door but I wanted to get this going before I left. I'll be back hopefully this evening to throw in some of my opinions.* smile.gif


Heres the original first post and I've also checked out the background thread as well. I've done so much reading and discussing this topic that it has really left me a bit conflicted. I think that humans are by nature sexual creatures who crave and desire to interact with others sexually. I know that there are celebate people who can dispute this, but I'm just giving my thoughts no facts. Morally, I'm against having sex or doing sexual favors for money and I do think that it is one sided in that it shows women as objects. Sure, the women get paid to do these things but to the men/women who participate (whether they are involved in the act(s) or watching) are still guilty of viewing those women as sex objects, whores, sluts, etc.

I think the women who are involved in having sex for money/stripping can do better. Going to college and having a career is obtainable and I feel that women in particular should DO better. If we're ever going to further feminism and equal rights, we've got to stop hurting ourselves by advocating this behavior and encouraging other women to go further in life.
girlbomb
QUOTE(pepper @ Jan 23 2007, 06:30 PM) *
how do things get so out of control around here anyhow?


Things get "out of control here" when people criticize other people's personal choices, whether they be the choice to participate in BDSM, the choice to remain child-free and joke about it, or the choice to get a boob job. Once you make the choice to express displeasure at another poster's choice, you open yourself up for them to express displeasure in return. That will sometimes result in a heated argument, often including "name-calling" -- but I'm not sure I see much of a difference between calling someone a bad feminist (or, for instance, calling them "out of control") and calling them a fuckstain. Fuckstain's just a funnier word.

So we can all press our hands to our breastbones and say, "Heavens, how DID everything get so heated in here?" But I don't think it's that hard to figure out. As James Brown said, "Static -- don't start none, won't be none."
doodlebug
wombat/whammybar, you ARE seriously fucked up. I asked you to find proof that I had talked about busties being manipulative and victim-playing. In your next post, you posted three examples of how I'd behaved with other busties: towards you, towards pepper, and towards poodle. If you didn't post the stuff about poodle regarding that, then the ONLY reason you could have possibly posted it is to stir up shit and to manipulate others into seeing me in a poor light, because it otherwise has ZERO context in the "conversation" we are now having. It was pointless, stupid, and way out of line. Not to mention a really great example of crazymaking behaviour.

And I told you at the time how I felt about your post, and I'm telling you now: you were way out of line even bringing MY PERSONAL MEDICAL HISTORY into a conversation where it was not being discussed...and to later post details of MY PERSONAL MEDICAL HISTORY in the Support Hos thread, where I had no intention of disclosing it. And can your bullshit about it being posted elsewhere already. Nobody is reading in the Okay archives to find out those kind of details - well, they probably are now. You just cannot see how invasive and nasty this is? Jesus christ.

You also posted it thusly: "It's not that your depression gives you pain, rahter it's the other way around! It sucks to live with pain and that makes you depressed! You are NOT imagining it! You are NOT creating it ! You are NOT a nut!" (emphasis mine)

When the fuck did I ever say that I thought any of those things? You made those assumptions. Can you not see how messed it was to personalizing it like that? No, you were NOT speaking generically, you were speaking TO me, ABOUT me. God, are you really this blind??? And really, to keep coming at me after I'd explained that I was offended? Come on, seriously.

And for the record, I never said anything remotely like, "I'm a counselor and I say you are this" to pepper. What kind of insanity makes you spout these lies? Seriously, prove I ever said it.

But again, for the record, I am a trained counsellor and group facilitator, which I say without arrogance, but is meant to give evidence that I've developed some pretty good skills around recognizing unhealthy behaviour. And "unhealthy behaviour" seems to be written all over quite a bit of what you post here.

It's time to face facts, wombat/whammybar. At this point, you are flinging shit around like a monkey in a cage. And it is shit, all of it, because it's clear you refuse to provide any genuine evidence to back up your accusations.
OreosMom
QUOTE(girlbomb @ Jan 23 2007, 09:50 PM) *

Things get "out of control here" when people criticize other people's personal choices, whether they be the choice to participate in BDSM, the choice to remain child-free and joke about it, or the choice to get a boob job. Once you make the choice to express displeasure at another poster's choice, you open yourself up for them to express displeasure in return. That will sometimes result in a heated argument, often including "name-calling" -- but I'm not sure I see much of a difference between calling someone a bad feminist (or, for instance, calling them "out of control") and calling them a fuckstain. Fuckstain's just a funnier word.

So we can all press our hands to our breastbones and say, "Heavens, how DID everything get so heated in here?" But I don't think it's that hard to figure out. As James Brown said, "Static -- don't start none, won't be none."


R-E-S-P-E-C-T Find out what it means to me .
I realize that we can't always agree on everything, but can we take this bickering elsewhere? Please? Or just block each other. Lets not ruin this thread as this is a very important topic that I would like to discuss with other busties.
LoveMyPugs
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Oh, God the porn thread! Does it ever end...
erinjane
Did anyone in Canada catch the Vancouver Prostitution documentary that was on "The Lens" (CBC Newsworld) tonight? I taped it but haven't watched it yet. It caught a little glimpse and it looked really good.

I'll post more after I watch it tomorrow.

And I did buy "hot and bothered: feminist pornography" but i haven't sat down to watch that one either.
wombat
Twas the DINGO that ate the whammy_bar name! laugh.gif

Well! Girlbomb! I think the problems start when people's choices disrespect people's choice to disrespect their choices which of course is their choice to do, and if they don't think so, then that is the problem!!!! laugh.gif

And I'm diggin using the anti-feminist smiley.

Heavens to Betsy!!

***
I myself am shocked that no one besides me -- I think -- has mentioned the Tom of Finland stuff. It's all BDSM, but you couldn't call it anti-feminist exactly, since it's all guys. What a nice tie-in to the slash-y aspects, too. I'm not even digging the BDSM ish things as much as the fact that they are such beautiful erotic drawings, like the Vargas pin-up drawings.

I think it's kind of interesting that decades ago nude pictures of women were considered to be degrading to them, now it's as if nudes blend in to the scenery for most people and it takes some *SERIOUSLY* extreme stuff for people to be arguing about it.

***

Didn't see "The Lens"
minx
QUOTE(wombat @ Jan 20 2007, 01:15 PM) *


In the Okayers thread, I wasn't sure Minx was handling her nascent S&M practice properly. I'm not against it at all, but she has a small child in the middle of a custody battle and she is a public school teacher. Then she mentions wanting to have sex in public, and, on the okayers thread, posts giant pictures and long words about the stuff she's doing.

That could cause disaster for her personally and professionally, and, my trying to make the point that kids see spanking differently so the aspect of it that is adult sexual material should be carefully hidden from them -- well, I'm sure I'll be accused of equating BDSM with pedophilia, which, of course is inaccurate and not at all what I'm doing.

In the Okayers thread, when I posted criticism and questioning of Minx, and of Tesao, and Doodlebug told me many times that I had to be silent. That is not acceptable to me, then or now. The Okayers thread is a public space, and it is not the BDSM thread.



Hey Wombat, I am going to offer up a big FUCK YOU. You get the Special Person Award of Sub-Excellence. Oh yeah, and sorry for the "long words". It must be difficult to be so narrow-minded and be expected to keep up with vocabulary and nomanclature.

Fuck you for dragging my name around these threads for the second or third time to prove whatever pseudointelligentia you happen to be touting this week.

Fuck you for spewing bullshit about me and my kid and my sexuality when, once again, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Fuck you for doing this whole throw a rock through the window and go running for the shelter in another thread when you didn't "win" in another.

Apparently, you enjoy this sort of attention. You don't have a problem discussing BDSM, but have a difficult time when someone with a child discusses it freely. You are a fucking hypocrite of the worst sort: a mouthy, catty, talking-behind-your-back bitch wearing feminist clothing.

You were told to shut the fuck up because you were yakking on and on like a psychohosebag with absolutely no regards for some basic rules of conduct and conversation. Yeah, I'm a teacher, NO, I am not in the middle of a custody battle. You are a year behind in facts and about 30 years behind in a fucking reality check. And where in the fuck are you getting this having sex in public thing?! Big fucking deal? And who the fuck are you to question my WANTS?! And discuss other's situations that are only pressient because YOU have deemed it so??

Holy fucking hell, you need to get a life. Until then, as I have asked previously SEVERAL TIMES, until you learn to listen and read properly, you do not get to discuss YOUR VERSION of MY LIFE. When are you going to understand the concept of boundaries?

Probably about the same time you land on our planet, you goofy git.
wombat
Minx.

I'm sorry.

It was hard for me to ask you about the little detail of keeping materials out of the kid's vision.

I know you are not *behaving* inappropriately with her at any time.

It was hard for me to say and hard for you to hear, but I really felt skeeved by it.

I knew it would probably mean that I should leave the Okayers thread, and I debated just leaving instead and not speaking at all, the minute I couldn't offer 100 percent, rubber-stamp approval of all things at all times.

It was a big deal for me to say anything like that.

I thought we had settled it, I dunno. I was uncomfortable with the way the thread was headed during and after that time. And, I've got to say,name-calling threatening tirades were not what I indulged in. It took all this time for me to come to that.

I appreciate and respect all kinds of women's sexuality, but we do have different threads in this board that function in different ways, and the reason we do is to avoid making others uncomfortable.

Even though I think it's fine for people to have any kind of sex they want at any level and fashion they want to have it, I didn't want people who were more inhibited or had questions or had concerns or disputes or simply different tastes to feel that they were being pressured into approving prostitution/BDSM/porn by other Busties.

A lot of good people weighed in very honeslty and kindly, greenbean being one example, to really try to explain things and make sure people *didn't* feel pressured. But I felt that Tesao in particular was defending it by waving it in people's faces. And, after I left the okayers thread and was being cool about it, and I went and posted in the Fun with Floggers thread, as well as others, Doodle and Tesao and GirlyGirlGag felt the need to go defend BDSM by getting involved in an agument between other posters that had nothing to do with them.

That really peeved me. You do not gang up to pressure, suppress, and interfere with people that are very emotional about an issue. The thing to do is to work it out, otherwise, it becomes a game of "I have the power around here.' "We have the power around here, you better not go against us"

That is bullshit, pure and simple. Respecting people's desires includes respecting people's conccerns and feelings about their desires. I do not to see the spectable of a self-appointed power elite, giggling about how dominant they are, taking that out of the realm of sexual games and imposing it on verbal debates between other people. That is abusive and inappropriate.

I said it before, and if necessary, I will say it again.

Do what you like, but keep the lines of communication open.

I'm sorry to offend or hurt your feelings, Minx, or to violate your privacy, but you seem to have no such concern about doiing those things to me at all.

I remain confused about why people think that what they post about themselves on the Okay thread is SECRET somehow, and that what they post or others post about them or about the subjects they raise in OTHER threads is NOT SECRET. I haven't told any secrets on you -- either you or Doodlebug -- you told them on yourselves. Try putting the words "bustie" or "bustie hardcore" or bustie Okay" or "bustie BDSM" into the Yahoo search function. Up pop links directly to those threads, accessible to the whole world. Did I post your real life name? Do I even remember it? No. I understand and agree that you and doodlebug should be be respected for every aspect of your lives.

However, I am sorry to have hurt or offended you by talking about the Okayers thread here.

And once again, I *will* speak up if I see some bizarro world of "feminist you must always approve of all of our desires at all times in all ways police" rear its head. It is not just shaming of desires but shaming of debate that is a problem. GirlyGirlGag.

If we are supposed to be able to have civil discussions -- let's do that.

If you really feel you have to, flame me, flame me, and flame me some more.

erinjane
(i'm just gonna post around the current situation)

I watched the CBC docu today and it was really well done. It's called "A Safer Sex Trade" and will be replaying Saturday night on CBC Newsworld.

QUOTE
Scarlett is a highly successful madam with 30 years under her belt in the sex trade business; Simone is a high-class sex worker who services wealthy clients in five Western Canadian cities; and Jennifer is a former drug addicted prostitute who now works tirelessly to offer support to sex trade workers on the streets. These women have had different experiences in the sex trade business, but they're united by one concern-the safety of women in their stigmatized industry.

Jennifer exposes the ugly side of Vancouver's streets, where Canada's current laws have led to the increasing marginalization of street walkers and have made the women at the front lines of the notorious Downtown Eastside particularly vulnerable. It's a danger that made international headlines last year with the arrest of Robert Willie Pickton, charged with the murder of 26 women, many of them Vancouver sex trade workers.

On the other side are high-priced sex workers like Simone, who are not at such risk. Their expensive services are advertised in the yellow pages as escort agencies, and are taxed and operated under tacit approval of the police.

A Safer Sex Trade explores this double standard at work by putting faces to the women who represent both perspectives: life in the high rise and on the street.


It was neat seeing the juxtaposition of the high class escorts with the surival sex worker (Just working to survive). At one point Simone talks about how she can choose he she takes on as a client and that she wants to retire in a few years and then it cuts to Jennifer talking about how dangerous johns are and that you're just working to survive.

Jennifer now runs something called "Jen's Kitchen" which is funded by donations. She goes around Vancouvers downtown eastside and gives the street works and homeless people food and juice.

She also talks about how when she worked two years ago you had to charge $40, and if you wanted to charge $20 you had to get the okay from other street girls, unless you were standing out there all night and hadn't gotten a john, then you could charge only $20.

These women were from such different places but they all agreed that there needs to be better support from police and law makers. One of the comments Jennifer made was that when she brings women food they don't want to talk about the work, they've been doing it for twenty years and nothing you can say would make them stop doing it, so it might as well be safe.

They also talked a lot about Pickton and the women who have gone missing across Canada. If you have the opportunity I encourage you to watch this weekend.

You can watch the trailer here: http://www.cheapanddirty.ca/safer-filmmakers.php#
katiebelle2882
I guess the goal would be to have ALL sex workers have the life of scarlette. Good call posting around the situation erin. I have to say, I havent been on these boards much recently but holy shite do things get crazy quickly.
wombat
Thanks for that one, EJ.

Articles written by actual high-priced call girls mentioned being lonely and pressured and always saying they were going to retire, but not doing it, until they were force-retired or demoted down the ranks to a frightening degree. There's a whole sense of how people will always *say* they are doing great, it's a matter of survival of the spirit.

Many ambiguities to the issue, one being that wives of affluent men are pressured to turn a blind eye, and one of the first insults women hurl at each other when they are competing for something is to call the other woman "tacky" and "low class"

It will be interesting to see how the subtleties play out in this video.

I'll watch that one later, as I gotta go out of the house and do work related chores.

Thanks for getting us back on track!

***
I know we're all intelligent and capable here, just sometimes impulsive/impetuous, what have you.

It can get to be a tangled mess of miscommunications when people feel their personal boundaries are not honored.

My assumption is that we're all trying to move away from unnecessary suffering, and welcome any information that one can glean about how to do that.

I shouldn't assume that everyone has that as a priority or welcomes that information.

Hope we can just settle into our identities as evil twats and prissy twits and have a good time as much as possible wink.gif

girlygirlgag
QUOTE(wombat @ Jan 25 2007, 02:04 AM) *



A lot of good people weighed in very honeslty and kindly, greenbean being one example, to really try to explain things and make sure people *didn't* feel pressured. But I felt that Tesao in particular was defending it by waving it in people's faces. And, after I left the okayers thread and was being cool about it, and I went and posted in the Fun with Floggers thread, as well as others, Doodle and Tesao and GirlyGirlGag felt the need to go defend BDSM by getting involved in an agument between other posters that had nothing to do with them.

That really peeved me. You do not gang up to pressure, suppress, and interfere with people that are very emotional about an issue. The thing to do is to work it out, otherwise, it becomes a game of "I have the power around here.' "We have the power around here, you better not go against us"





Okay, I will just go around and call people sociopaths, like it is nothing.

I lurk in a lot of threads without posting in them. I hate when things get out of control and people over step their boundaries. I am not trying to gain up on anyone, but bring a "time out" suggestion, or suggest that somethings may be better suited for another thread.

I am not going to insult you Wombat, but I think you have a lot to learn about boundaries.


girlwithasecret
I watched the CBC documentry the other night, it was well done in all respects to the subject matter they covered; I'll probably watch it again this week when they re-air it. As I've said before alot of what they show isn't unfamiliar to me (different city, same bag of tricks) but I feel shaken when they show women who have gone missing thru out Canada. So much more has to be done to provide safer conditions for sex workers.

erinjane - I just wanted to say thanks for mentioning another well put together piece. The links you have offered up in this thread have been so insightful. It helps me in seeing that I'm not the only (former) sex worker who has the feelings that I do.
girltrouble
as one of the people who was involved in the big blow up on this thread, can we just dead it? if there is anything more to say, send an pm. i think we need to bury all of that and get back to the discussions we were having. they were too interesting to keep letting the b-smack keep festering.

QUOTE
wombat:
Articles written by actual high-priced call girls mentioned being lonely and pressured and always saying they were going to retire, but not doing it, until they were force-retired or demoted down the ranks to a frightening degree. There's a whole sense of how people will always *say* they are doing great, it's a matter of survival of the spirit.


i don't think rank is the reason. it's more a matter of the difficulties of leaving the biz. no resume, references, experience. plus it's hard to go from more or less being self-employed (setting your own schedule, sleeping in, etc) and the reduction in pay. like drug dealing, stripping the money comes fast and easy. having to work a normal 40 hour week, and getting a paycheck that is a fraction of what you used to make in a few days, is a shock.-- imagine whatever job you do now, quadruple the hours, and give yourself 1/8th of the pay. now street walkers, the algebra is different. the hours can be shorter, less dangerous, but-- as weird as it sounds, not as validating. but the pay is still probably better than some of the jobs they could get. as for the loneliness, that has to do with the stigma of the work. you can't tell people what you do, and that cuts out real dates, trust in men, and many of your friends and family. the perk of a normal job is that you can come out of the closet. you can tell people what you do.
girlwithasecret
"i don't think rank is the reason. it's more a matter of the difficulties of leaving the biz. no resume, references, experience. plus it's hard to go from more or less being self-employed (setting your own schedule, sleeping in, etc) and the reduction in pay. like drug dealing, stripping the money comes fast and easy. having to work a normal 40 hour week, and getting a paycheck that is a fraction of what you used to make in a few days, is a shock.-- imagine whatever job you do now, quadruple the hours, and give yourself 1/8th of the pay. now street walkers, the algebra is different. the hours can be shorter, less dangerous, but-- as weird as it sounds, not as validating. but the pay is still probably better than some of the jobs they could get. as for the loneliness, that has to do with the stigma of the work. you can't tell people what you do, and that cuts out real dates, trust in men, and many of your friends and family. the perk of a normal job is that you can come out of the closet. you can tell people what you do"

EXACTLY THAT!! Thanks girltrouble I couldn't agree with you more about what you wrote!

I had nothing to write on a resume for a huge chunk of years. Also who should I put down as a referance? The guy I smack around on Friday afternoons or the bachelor party I did on Saturday?? It was my own doing of course but you don't realize how hard it is to get out of until you try to! I will admit the hours and pay were wicked; who wouldn't when you make $900-$2000+ for 18 hrs and 3 days of work? The thing is at a certain point you want normalcy (or at least I did) and to stop looking over your shoulder. I hated the constant lying (my "cover story") and how alienated and paranoid I felt...no amount of money is going to bring you happiness, tho it does pay your bills. I've never been so happy to sit at a desk and work my 40 hours, even if the paycheck and office clothes have at times made me want to cry!

(sorry I don't know how to quotes in properly in threads unsure.gif )
wombat
Okay, anyone who wants to move on, yayy!

****

ggg -- There were a lot of things, over a long period of time, that led me to that "sociopath" suspicion.

There were a lot of contradictions, and constant little passive-aggressive offenses, that, apparently, you were blind to. I would not have said it unless I felt it was important.

You seem to get a feeling of superiority when others express anger.

I got sick of subterranean aggressions from some here, dealing with the denial, distortions and controlling behavior of neurotics. It's good to be supportive and understanding and tolerant: however, I know from my own experience that there is a difference between being compassionate and being subjugated to a person's distorted point of view.

I knew people would want to blame the messenger, and I can handle it. No big deal.

Burying it is a good idea. There are productive discussions to be had. If you want to throw the "sociopath" thing in my face every time I have something to say, go to it. You can hold on to it, and I have moved on.

***

Yeah, I see what you two are saying about dealing with sex work sensibly, and wanting not to be stigmatized.

I wonder about the consequences of legalization though, in the face of exploitive trends in the global economy. Possibly a lot of women and a certain amount of men would feel forced to remain in sex work beacause they had no other opportunities? This is what I read when I read articles about the sex slave trade in Eastern Europe and China.

What can we do to make sure that women, and other less-privileged people such as poorer men or LBGT youth have other choices and opportunities to develop other abilities -- skills, education, safety?

In a way, the illegal "immoral" nature is causing problems for the individuals in sex work, in a way, the larger society is causing problems for all kinds of workers and citizens.

I hope I'm saying this so it makes some sense.


wombat
Too late to edit the last post, but -- seriously -- let's just move on from personal squabble stuff.
While they are probably inevitable, they drag energy out of a person. Good to disentangle from.

I'm sure that even if I'm right about Tes -- it's not to some ghastly degree.

And the fact is, all of us have valuable things to say.


-- I'm wondering if the larger question is how to avoid being treated as "less than human" by the powers that be, no matter what you do with your sexuality or in providing a life for yourself and loved ones.

tesao
i'd be interested in talking about examples of places where prostitution is legal, and how that affects people's perspective of whether or not prostitution can be feminist.

for example, a comparison of Nevada and the Netherlands. i've only read articles about Nevada, I once paid a window prostitute in the red light district in Amsterdam to talk to me about the work. anyone else up for that?
wombat
well, see, tesao, this is what I *like* about you smile.gif

sexual + aggressive = good, in some ways!!

Why, SOITinly!!

***

I have a dark suspicion that service is all they want from us all. So, why not let down the barriers with GATT and NAFTA, make sure the illegal immigrants can still be working in the fields, make things cool for women to provide sexual and domestic services to make their living, make sure colleges go back to being only for the children of the elite, with price and social barriers, so the degrees have meaning etc. And, really, one should mechanize and export even as many white collar, creative and intellecutal tasks as possible.

Walmart and special housing charities for all those impoverished by shipping jobs overseas, and cheap clothes from China from the documented young girls chained to their machines for 18 hour days. Hey, as an *ex* friend said of mine, they'd only be working in the fields or starving anyway, so, what's the big deal?

Just as long as there is as little actual torture, rape, disease and killing as possible, well, then, they're doing their level best for the unwashed masses, aren't they?

It was only a nice little indulgent fantasy, for a short period of time, to think that there were any skills, art, intelligence, or the more powerful social administrations that could come from anyone but an ancestry-determined group of mostly white and, of course, all male people.

***

But the above has nothing to do with Pr0N per se. I should export my own rants to a more political thread or site, perhaps.
raisingirl
Tesao, darling, funny that you bring up this subject when just a few days ago I caught a half-hour show about Amsterdam on the Travel Channel.

What I learned about prostitution in Amsterdam (the host of the show and a local woman were walking through the red light district):

--The prostitutes have to be registered in order to work. This ensures that they are at least 18 years old and are also legal immigrants.

--Because it's legalized, it brings in tax money.

--THEY HAVE A UNION! Okay, I'm not saying I'm for or against unions, but I thought it was interesting that they have a union.

--Photographing the women in the windows is not allowed, ever. People will seemingly come out of nowhere as soon as they see you take out your camera (or aiming your cell phone's camera at a window, I would imagine) and tell you to put it away. I wonder if they rip open peoples' cameras to expose the film?

--People live in the red light district. I think they even said "normal families" live upstairs. There's a kindergarten there.

But what I found most interesting was that the local woman said that there is social control and social cohesion there. Now THAT'S a radical concept. I'm not sure it would be feminism, but it's pretty damn close. I think about all the notorious red light districts in the US and they're in sections of cities that are scuzzy and undesirable, crime-ridden (of course, because prostitution is illegal), being places where you can't imagine grandma pushing a stroller/pram through the 'hood on a Sunday afternoon, you know?

Tesao, what did the prostitute tell you about work and her working conditions?
roseviolet
Raisin, I think I've seen that show, too! Was it Passport to Europe with Samantha Brown? I always like her show but I especially enjoyed this episode because of the way she addressed legal maijuana use & prostituion. It was very respectful I felt.

[relurks]
raisingirl
Hee hee! Yeah yeah, that was it! Samantha! Wasn't it a good show, RV? I always like her, too; she's a good egg.

I wonder if the prostitutes in Amsterdam have to be regularly tested for STDs -- and if they are, I wonder what diseases are or are not allowed.

And what I took away from that show was like, hell, why don't we legalize EVERYTHING and (at the risk of sounding like a Monty Python sketch...) TAX IT ALL! Seriously, why not? We can have astronomical cigarette tax but other drugs and sex are still illegal to sell?

Oh gosh, I hope I'm not veering too far off-topic. unsure.gif
greenbean
It is interesting. When I was in Holland I stayed with a Dutch family in a town outside of Amsterdam called Liden, and the contrast was like night and day. I still feel like there was a scuzzyness to Amsterdam, cuz eventhough pot is legal in cafes there still are guys on the street trying to sell it discreetly (or not discreetly in some cases). There also was a definite racial divide, from the actual Dutch regarding the immigrants who come there. One of the Dutchmen told me that they keep everything legal not so they could partake in it, but so they dont have to DEAL with it.

As far as Nevada goes, I have an uncle who moved his family there because he got construction work. He said it was quite uncomfortable having to drive his kids to school past a billboard for the Bunny Ranch. He had hoped his young sons didnt pay attention to it, but i think we all know there is no way.
katiebelle2882
i LOOOOOOVE Amsterdam. I am applying for grad school there in 2008. Of course the prostitutes need to get tested! Its government sanctioned precisely so its safer. thats the whole argument behind legalizing it.


This all being said, i read a book recently about sex trafficking which contends about 30% of the prostitutes in amsterdam are trafficked. so, while its safer and its still better for women in terms of unions and cohesion, there are still problems to be sure.
nickclick
i wonder what the percentage of prostitutes here in USA are trafficked?
maddy29
hey peeps-i'm going to this free pornography conference at wheelock college, in boston-anyone going? it's march 23-25 and you can check out the schedule at http://www.wheelock.edu/ppc/

"Thanks for registering for the conference on Pornography and Pop Culture to be held at Wheelock College on March 23-25. We have been overwhelmed by the interest; more than 400 people from around the country, including some from outside the U.S., will attend. The activists, anti-violence educators, academics, and concerned citizens who will be there are ready to confront the pornographic imagery that increasingly invades our lives, our relationships and our cultural landscape."


erinjane
I seem to remember someone mentioning "Female Chauvinist Pigs" in here? (and if i'm wrong send me to the right place, I'm not sure where would be appropriate)

For those who have read it, what did you think? I picked it up in Toronto to read on the plane and wasn't very impressed with it. I guess I agree with her overall message, but I thought she made it very clear she had an agenda and was really manipulative in her presentation. I also hated the way she stuck in her own commentary and speculation when she described the women she'd spoken to. It reminded me of those "reality" tv shows, like "The Girls Next Door" where you know it's been tailored to make the women appear like vapid sluts.
maddy29
wow-see, i loved that book. i actually haven't finished it yet bu ti got most of the way through. to me it was life-changing-to have someone talk about the things i've been thinking-made me feel much less crazy. i liked it a lot. not saying that everything she said was right or whatever, but i got a lot out of it.

i thought it was clear she had an agenda, or an opinion, yes. what did you think was manipulative about it? just curious. it made a huge impact on me so it's interesting to hear from someone who really didn't like it.
annelise
i know several people who really liked that book (female chauvinist pigs) and a few that disliked it strongly. note: i haven't read it.

i have, however, seen ariel levy interviewed, and read quite a few articles, so i could get a bit of an idea of what my friends were talking about. my impression of her was that she has some very good points, but the way she comes across is ...she's not blatantly anti-sex by any means, but she made me feel defensive. it seems to me that she's pointing out something that is a very real phenomenon, but possibly she's doing so in such a way that she's framing feminism in a much more black-and-white way than she perhaps should.

she has said straight out that she's all for sexual expression in women when that's what *they* want, rather than such behavior being influenced socially/culturally, and that is a good insight.

i guess it was the strength and tone of her language that bugged me, though what she was saying had some real validity to it. once again, i'm going by several articles/interviews of her i'd read/seen through doing research on her. i haven't read the book. reading up on her enough made me feel like i didn't want to read the book!

I guess I agree with her overall message, but I thought she made it very clear she had an agenda and was really manipulative in her presentation.


i guess that's the same as what i've been trying to say!
culturehandy
*delurks*

Just to play the devil's advocate here, in cases where prostitution is legal, I think that some people may become slightly ingorant and think that illegal prostitution and the abuse that may go along with it does happen. Could legalized prostitution not force illegal prostitution more underground and out of the radar, and people would think that it doesn't happen?

I do love the fact that those prostitutes who are involved in legal sex work have unions and other such protections in place.

Never read female chauvinist pigs, wanted to, but never got around to picking it up. Maybe I'll try the library for that one.

*relurks*

maddy29
check it out culturehandy- for me it was an amazing experience to read. partly because i have been just reading fiction for fun for so long that i kinda forgot how great it is to read nonfiction, stuff that actually makes me think.

i think a lot of people got defensive while reading it, which i found interesting, because i didn't even feel defensive ONE TIME. sometimes i thought her personal comments were dumb though. but no defensiveness, just RELIEF! it really helped give some social context to my college experiences, which at the time were just a total mindfuck, and i'm finally starting to understand the pressures that were on me, pulling me different ways and making me kinda crazy smile.gif

don't most books like this have an agenda?
culturehandy
It seems like an interesting read and the book jacket's write up on it sounded interesting.

I'll pick it up.
erinjane
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Mar 5 2007, 12:47 PM) *

wow-see, i loved that book. i actually haven't finished it yet bu ti got most of the way through. to me it was life-changing-to have someone talk about the things i've been thinking-made me feel much less crazy. i liked it a lot. not saying that everything she said was right or whatever, but i got a lot out of it.

i thought it was clear she had an agenda, or an opinion, yes. what did you think was manipulative about it? just curious. it made a huge impact on me so it's interesting to hear from someone who really didn't like it.


Having an agenda isn't necessarily bad, and like I said, i did agree with her main points, but I thought it was manipulative in the way she pieced together her interviews with women and her commentary one what they looked like and how she's put in a sentence sometimes speculating that who she was talking to probably wasn't very smart. There's a part near the end where she really does piece together sentences from a few different women and I felt she was trying to make it appear they were making her point for her.

I also really disliked how she used Jenna Jameson as if she's the spokesperson for all pornography/sex work out there. She neglected to explore other people like Nina Hartley or Annie Sprinkle (as examples).

I guess another problem I had is that I just don't see the problem on such a big scale as she does, but that could also be because I'm just not that 'hip' to the mainstream, and tend to be surrounded by like-minded feminist-types.

I liked her parts talking about teenage girls problems with sex and how they often seem to have it because it's 'cool' but she fell short in a lot of the areas I did agree with. And one big pet peeve I have is that this is really a book of her testimonials and opinions but many people I've talked to take it as if she's done some huge study (this is the academic in me talking:P).
maddy29
Ok, I finally did my "playgirl experiment." Hee hee smile.gif I"m such a weirdo.

My roommates and I were talking about playgirl-neither of them had ever seen it, or a magazine like it. They have both seen porn, of course, but never laid eyes on a magazine made for women. So, I decided to get them a magazine, and also see how my boyfriend reacted to the magazine. Kind of make him see what it feels like.

So-I bought it-at a store with my boyfriend there-he felt a bit worried that the guy thought it was for him. lol.

My roommates LOVED it. I was really surprised-I mean they are both younger than me and have more sexual experience and they both just thought it was SO GREAT. i'm not exactly sure why, but they loved it.

my boy and i looked at it, and i kept bugging him with "ok, how does this make you feel?" lol. it was interesting-he said that if i had a subscription i would be kind of a pervy type person. i brought up his stack of playboys that he used to have out, and he said "well those were my brothers." so according to him, it's ok as long as you aren't obsessed with it, or as long as you don't buy it, or something. it was interesting. he was seeming a bit insecure, and asked me stuff like "do those guys turn you on?" etc. At the same time though, he was interested in looking through it.

I think that it was a good experiment-i think my boy gets it a bit more.

Then my roommate had hidden the mag-saying "oh, but what if our (male) landlord came by and saw that sitting out?" I was like-I'm sure he has porn at home, and this is our house so who cares???!!!! I can't imagine any man ever being concerned about that in his own house.

What do y'all think about playgirl and the like? Stuff made for straight women? my roommates in college got me a subscription because i was so sheltered and stuff, they thought it was sooo funny.

greenbean
Hi guys, how y'all been?
just wanted to pipe in here today.
I have seen Ariel Levy interviewed twice and read exerpts of the book, and I too got a little defensive. I guess because of the idea that its only girls fall into these sort of aggressive sexual displays, particulary in regards to bi-sexuality,..and also that the idea that this is a new phenomenon. I've been reading a book written in the 70s about the "new phenomenon" of overt sexual experimentation, swinging, and homosexual curiosity,..I've also read similiar stuff about the Victorian era! So, I really don't know why people freak out about today's youth like they are the first to act this way.

In my experience, its a good thing to act out in these ways, especially in youth. When I moved to San Francisco at 18 there were loads of kids from all over the country (many from sexually repressed towns) who went there to find themselves sexually and otherwise. Every one was experimenting with bi-sexuality, girls AND boys. My friends and I would be at parties and the boys were just as likely to make-out with each other as the girls. Some discovered they were gay, others very very straight. I didnt find any of it to be disturbing, and I look back on those years with fondness.

Sometimes I do see the next generation acting this way and I do turn my nose up at them, or think they are victims..but really how can I? They are just doing what kids do. When adults exploit it and videotape it for profit THATS what I think is gross..but then again I am in a business that profits off teen girl culture, so maybe I'm a female chauvanist myself! eeeep.

On to maddy's recent question...um, I've never really been into beefcake, but I do sexualize rock stars and have always had a stash of images of shirtless boys in tight pants to gaze at, ...oh, and my old roomie and I would get Out magazine for the cute boys in the fashion spreads. I've never had a boyfriend that was into Playboy..Suicide Girls and certain porn maybe, but it never bothered me...actually, I like it. Playboy is just too corny and mainstream, and the boys I date arent into that stuff. It'd be as if I was one of those giggly girls into Abercrombie and Finch ads (insert finger in mouth).
anna k
Last night on ABC News they profiled a couple of women who performed in porn films. They were more the San Fernando Valley/mainstream kind of porn stars. One seemed to love it (going from being an ice skater to dancing at a strip club and progressing to porn), but it was strange how involved her parents were in her business, running her website, chering her own with "That's our girl, she does what she wants," and even wanted to help her get a sex-doll mold made of her body. The other was a girl who seemed messed-up and had lost custody of her daughter and been arrested on drug charges. By the show's end, she was trying to get out with the help from a former porn star who turned to the church and aided girls out of porn.
mornington
greenbean, i know what you mean, but I think there is a difference between experimenting and acting out for the attention (which some girls genuinely do, and will admit to doing). I certainly don't disagree with it being a bad thing for either sex to experiment with bisexuality - among my friends, it seems to be pretty normal - as I don't think sexuality is simply a matter of gay or straight. However I think it's important that the participants acknowledge to themselves why they're experimenting or acting out. Does that make sense?

Maddy, I personally am more into written stuff than pictures - I find them more of a turn-on - and to be honest I'm not, as greenbean put it so well, into beefcake. A lot of the guys in playgirl and the like aren't "my type". In the uk, playgirl and the like aren't so easily available when compared to playboy, fhm, and the like (we have more, which is rather tacky, and not especially glossy). I tend to shrug and move on - it's a curiosity to me in the same way fhm is; i'll flick through it if it's around but i wouldn't actually buy one.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2014 Invision Power Services, Inc.