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girltrouble
yay faerie!

that article is awesome. it talks about some of the things we were talking about, but i love that the guy at the helm seems to be very earnest about his porn being a postive thing. he is very indicative of most of the people i've met who are in the bdsm community. they take it very seriously, and are concerned with it's image and that same demystifying that the article talks about. but more, he seems to have that higher purpose i was talking about, and he even talks about it. i think you need that thing that says it's not just about making money, and that you would draw the line at a place where you find it ethically. you can do that work without selling your soul....

i have to say the thing i love best is that he does the pre- and post scene interviews and posts those as well, because it reminds you that these are real people, it isn't just about money, and, that if there is something the person doesn't like that is to be respected. it's so interesting to see how he has taken things in bdsm and incorperated them-- the pre and post interviews are very much a pillar of the bdsm community, as is respecting limits.

very interesting also was the talk about the mission, that's my old hood. i lived there before the dot-com boom/bust and loved it, but went back to visit a few years ago and hated it, it was super yuppified, and they did indeed push many of the latino families out, which was a huge part of what made it such a wonderful enclave. i also have to admit when they were talking about taking over that building, i couldn't help but drool, oh the scenes you could do there....*sigh*
mornington
that's a great article, faerie! Perhaps what we are talking about is ethical porn - stuff that's fair, paid well (unionised? I'm not too familiar with the union system in the US) and made with consideration - the respect for boundaries that the article and GT talked about. That article, to me, made the industry far more appealing than a lot of what you hear. I think the openness is a good thing - perhaps openness makes for good porn?
anna k
I was watching porn on Pornotube, and got bored with it. I actually prefer sex in regular movies than regular porn, it seemed mechanical of dick and pussy and tongue, less sexy.
lilyblue
QUOTE
What’s the difference between pornography and erotica?

I don’t think that all sexual content is pornographic. In fact, I prefer the term sex film as it seems more direct and less dated to me than either term. Pornography to me signifies exploitation.


(source Venus Hottentot, Director of Afrodite Superstar)

What do you all think of the quote I just posted? I think it goes along with what anna k is referring to. Also think that this attitude is the future of adult films. Most of what I have seen in mainstream porn is ridiculous. Everything from the truly unhealthy ATM (ass to mouth) and crap like DVDA (double vag/double anal) to the just plain obnoxiousness of the money shot (hmmm, boring!). I am getting excited about films that feature real couples and real sex interspersed with actual storyline.

I think katiebelle asked a good question: can we show some of the stuff that is in mainstream porn and have it still be feminist? I mean, I feel sexually submissive and I would love to see that shown without it being offensive.

mornington, i get what you are saying about SG. My issue is that then that becomes "mainstream" (see Vivid-Alt) and we are back in the same place where certain types of alt are acceptable and those on the outside are still on the outside.

faerie, i like this thread too. it makes me think a lot about what i believe.
nickclick
QUOTE(lilyblue @ Apr 30 2007, 01:17 AM) *
My issue is that then that becomes "mainstream" (see Vivid-Alt) and we are back in the same place where certain types of alt are acceptable and those on the outside are still on the outside.

let's take 1990s alternative music for example. what made nirvana etc. so "alternative" is such a part of mainstream music now, yes, even at it's watered-down versions. but, that makes new music work harder to be alternative, and hopefully the cycle will continue, adding more and more interesting factors into the boring mainstream, even if slowly.

for the record, i think SG is pretty boring and watered-down, but it's popular and worth mentioning.

i see erotica as more creative in trying to get you off. it allows you to use your mind to get hot. porn is much more direct, no?
mornington
I think that's what I was getting at. Anything that widens the accepted mainstream is - to a certain degree - good. If more people accept something - whether it's tats or boundaries or required healthchecks or women as equals - then it becomes standard, and therefore a change towards the positive.

Erotica, to me, leaves a lot more to the imagination. I think that's why I prefer it to porn - like annak, I find porn a bit too mechanical. Erotica isn't *just* about sex - I think there's a lot more at work there in most cases; it's more thoughtful, as it were.
thereshegoes
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Apr 28 2007, 05:22 AM) *

the result is a rather reactionary manhood where (most) guys are always worried about being perceived as being a man, and agree/say/do almost anything to be part of some imaginary concoction of what it means to be a man. and part of this bargain with the devil is a kind of silence. a silence about, in terms of our conversation here, what they find attractive. women that are not stick figures, that are ethnic, that are smart, and can hold their own. in many ways they opt, for masculinity's sake, to wear a mask. i say all of this with your last para in mind. is it not good when that mask gets another crack in it's exterior, and men can be even a little more honest about what they find attractive?


interesting. i never thought of it that way. i have come across porn that incorporates a whole range of people, all colors, genderqueer types, big gals, trans people, even amputees, but i found it in a feminist/queer sex shop in new york (toys in babeland, if i may pay respect). do you think the average-porn buying audience, the frat guy in iowa let's say, would tap into this market if exposed? it would be great if they did. perhaps i falsely assume men think in "stuff" magazine cover blurbs, even though i don't think in "cosmo" blurbs.


the last few posts about SG co-opting the culture made me think about my experience in high school, which i've shred about in other contexts, how when i was in 8th grade, dying your hair with manic panic made you a freak and a weirdo, but after nirvana got big in the 9th grade, more people got hip to it and we became more accepted. by 11th grade, the cheerleaders had manic panic'd hair and all the usual tiers of hotness developed (popular girls with pink hair dominating weirdopunk girls with pink hair). i wonder if that's what happened with suicide girls, it started out really punkrawk and edgy, and just became piercing playboy.
anna k
The best erotica I ever read was the Penguin Book of Women's Erotica, a book spanning stories written by famous and non-famous writers from the 1880s to the 1990s. The stories were so much more than regular sex, they were textured and layered and stuck in my mind long afterwards. I watched porn to see what kind of sex acts I would like, and the coldness and mechanics of it turned me off.
bunnyb
Have people seen this?
faerietails2
Wow.

Maddy, maybe you're not posting anymore, but without a doubt you're still checking in. So here's what I have to say to you: through all these little hash-it-out sessions, I'd still always valued your contributions, no matter how much I may or may not have disagreed with some of your points. But this victim bullshit is just despicable. It's fucking unbelievable. I'm speechless.
Onna-Otaku
**de-lurks**

Wow... so she found someone to agree with her every word? good for her, I guess...

**re-lurks**
knorl05
re: the article

who's the one who is not to be trusted here? i think it's all summed up in this statement here: "I'm a confused 30 year old"
skinwithoutscars
if you read the comments, is that our mandie posting, or did maddy also steal mandolyn's handle?

just sayin.

ps, i find it kind of insulting how, in the comments, a grown woman's consent to bdsm - which i distinguish entirely from porn - is similar to the "consent" a child "gives" a pedophile. sounds just like rick santorum comparing homosexuality to bestiality, if you ask me. one involves consenting adults, the other involves a consenting adult and an entity that cannot give consent for the sexual activity.

oh, wait, women can't give consent under patriarchy. silly me, it's all the same.

i see no value in sitting around being victimized by a shitty system i was handed at birth. i prefer to have fulfilling relationships and live my life as best i can, both within and outside of this paradigm.
mornington
doesn't sound like our mandi...

skin, word.


wow, maddy. that was pretty underhanded. Niiiice.
thereshegoes
wow.

you know, "m," I read twisty's blog from time to time, and even if i don't agree with her 100% on this issue, i still respect a lot of what she has to say. i feel like i got caught up in some jr. high backstabbing locker-room bullshit here.

that's fucked up. i have always taken what you have to say seriously and even agreed with you from time to time. until the last you got snippy with me, i felt some empathy with you as i know where you are coming from. but this is just nasty. i am sure you can spin anything to make anyone agree with you, but you know this sort of shit does not win anyone over to your ideas.

make no mistake---i am not berating you for your anti-porn ideas, i am berating you for your behavior.
nickclick
hmmm maybe some of the commenters there will travel over and post some dialogue here? oh wait, we :

"yell.... constantly because [she] think(s) porn is bad for women"

"talk about the feminist/alternative porn that [we] watch"

"seem to think that creating an alternative will somehow stop the mainstream degrading porn. Or something."

"are too scared to admit the truth? I know it’s painful to see the truth, so maybe that’s it."

"so brainwashed by mainstream pornification that they truly believe this stuff"


wow, i never thought i was so narrow minded !???!!
skinwithoutscars
you know, i don't think there's anything wrong with discussing what kind of porn we may or may not watch, as examples within the framework of a debate, that come from our personal experiences.

in fact, i'm pretty goddamn sure that discussing examples from our personal lives - both positive and negative - of cultural norms is one of the basic tenets of feminism.

i don't think the claim was ever made that magical feminist porn will "fix" mainstream porn. i think the discussion of alternatives is a valid one. it's like the riot grrrl zines of the early 90s - creating something out of & that reflects our experience so we can relate to it, versus the crap in u.s. today or newsweek that probably bears very little resemblance to our lives. i know of very few people who are under the illusion that alterna-porn, by itself, will radically alter mainstream porn.

but, i suppose i've been brainwashed by patriarchy into thinking i have freedom from groupthink, and really i'm about to meet the end of 1984 or something. oy.
nickclick
ooh sunsets... my nipples are erect!

another one:
"Porn in a post-patriarchal world? Someone you love who loves you back, in person."

yes, being near the person i love turns me on. but sometimes, a hot sexy ass on someone i could care less about does the trick too.

my witty banter aside, i think what we're trying to discuss (not argue, by the way) is a way to say - we are feminists, we don't like this mainstream shit, but we do like sex, and we do like this, this and summa that.

as a feminist who likes sex, not only in the context of my LT relationship under a setting sun, that's what i'm trying to figure out for myself, at least. and the best way is by discussing with other feminists who like sex.
tesao
*peeps around corner into thread*

i'm not around the lounge very much these days, but when i am here i lurk in this thread. i've been lurking for a while, but hesitated to post any more. when i read that link, i decided i needed to unlurk and address it.

i've got to agree with whoever it was who said that they feel like they ran into a junior high back-stabbing locker room.

that said, my vote is to ignore her. i honestly do not care what she thinks of me, or if she or anyone else thinks that i am a feminist or not. i know that i am, and my actions speak for me. i also know that i happen to like porn. if i pay attention to anything that this type of person says, i am only feeding them and the attitude that they espouse.

i've noticed lately that the porn that arouses me the most involves no sound track at all other than the people who are involved in it. i like amateur porn the best. the people having sex are obviously having a great time. they are smiling at each other, and making the kinds of noises that are real - at least they come across that way to me. i don't really care if they are in love with each other or not. i'm not watching porn as a way to prevent hiv/aids transmission a la the united states government, which involves AB (and when all else fails, C). A being Abstain, B being Be Faithful and C being (but hush, we aren't allowed to talk about it!) condoms when you are not moral enough to stick to A and B.

this policy brought to you by Ambassador Tobias, recent and now former director of United States Agency for International Development (USAID), director of US Foreign Assistance, and head of the Global Aids effort -- who resigned on friday when it was revealed that he was on the books of a high class call girl operations whose services he had availed himself of on numerous occasions.

/end rant
erinjane
QUOTE(faerietails2 @ Apr 30 2007, 07:26 PM) *
Wow.

Maddy, maybe you're not posting anymore, but without a doubt you're still checking in. So here's what I have to say to you: through all these little hash-it-out sessions, I'd still always valued your contributions, no matter how much I may or may not have disagreed with some of your points. But this victim bullshit is just despicable. It's fucking unbelievable. I'm speechless.



Exactly what I was thinking. I've always given maddy the benefit of the doubt but that was extremely insulting. I also find it extremely offensive when people try to tell me that I have no agency, and that I'm only the way I am because of 'the patriarchy', as if I haven't thought about these issues long and hard myself. One of the things I found so frustrating about some branches of feminism is that insistence that women don't have any agency. Anyways, the whole thing is bullshit.
girltrouble
it's really funny to go back and read this thread from say 4 mos ago. it's not as if some people didn't agree with things maddy said. quite a few people had posts where they would agree with various things she said-- myself included-- she seems to have this victim complex. and i especially loved the part where she talked about the name of the thread. that's what i love about the lounge-- the threads have these great, tounge-firmly-planted-in-cheek-titles...she's taken leave of her sense and sense of humor.

like i said, i have always wanted to hear maddy's pov, and yes sometimes-- when she was talking out of her ass-- it pissed me off, but i always thought that it was a matter of her being an honest broker saying things because she had an honest question, not because she felt like she knew it all, even though she would let slip and her condesention/arrogance would rear it's ugly head.

i don't claim to know the answers to the universe (unlike twisty), i just know what i think, and i like being challenged on it, because i have to either back up my ideas with reason, rethink or agree. unfortunately, not everyone is interested in having their ideas challenged, and they have to do things like maddy. while maddy's actions are rather dispicable, to me are more, well, to put it kindly, a rather pathetic means of reinforcing her own, half baked ideas. but that's who she is.

i don't want to dwell on her sad action, i would rather take this as a funny kind of gift. while i am tempted to post something on twisty's blog, i don't really see the point as it would be burried in the ocean of her yes women. (although i am glad tes did, cos tes is always awesome!) i am more interested in her reply as a response to my view of feminism, porn and sexuality. it's like a more articulate maddy posted something right here in the lounge.....

i know the lounge isn't the monolithic place that maddy sees it as, but then, if you don't agree with her 100%, well... she'll post something on a blog about you...lol. but i want to know, what do you agree with in twisty's missive, what don't you? we can also disect some of the "yes women's" posts...

personally.... i think this is awesome. besides:
QUOTE
from twisty's blog:
I totally agree with your brilliant analysis!

gosh, thanks twisty! hey, can i repost your post?
QUOTE
I can't stop you, but, you know, what the fuck? Not to mention it's kind of dumb. The more brilliant move would be for you to quote a snippet or two and devise your own response to the issue. This is what separates discourse from cutting and pasting.
really? do you want me paraphrasing you? meh. i don't see how a few snippets makes it more brilliant. besides, i have no problem with cutting and pasting, non-fascistic feminism, non-bianary thinking, or careless punctuation for that matter.



greenbean
Rudderlesschild! OMG, you bust me up!

Seriously, I *knew* this was gonna happen. Still disapointed, but not surprised. I bet Twisty and Maddy are basking in the post-coitus-like afterglow of their hero worship right now. Good for them. Remember, this is the poor lady who has said in other posts "one day you'll hit menopause and wonder what the big fuss [sex] was about".

Twistys always good for a laugh. I especially like that she equates an arched back with hokey constructs of porn (along with um, corny fashion accessories, ha! gawd shes reaching). I mean seriously, has anyone ever gone down on her? I'm thinking back to this weekend and the hot Aussie that oh-so-tenderly licked my clit into frantic, shooting spasms and somehow my back arching was simply a brainwashed reaction that I was imitating from porn?!??!! HA! I'd give anything to have that dude do his magic on her and see how well she could stay straight-backed and quiet. Gah! Now I'm horny. Must be sunset.

girltrouble

...
faerietails2
I'm sorry, I'm too focused on my envy over greenbean's clit-licking hot Aussie to have anything witty to contribute at this time...The patriarchy made me type that. (The patriarchy made me envious, too, btw.)
greenbean
**squeeee**
I know. I'm way too happy right now to be peeved about Maddy's low bow.


Back to porn though, does anyone know if men performing oral on women in porn is a relatively new thing? My housemates and I were watching an old Redd Fox stand-up comedy video and he made jokes that led me to believe that it was just starting to pop up in the early 80s...

And a comment on this from Twisty's blog: "A world without porn, however desirable, is nevertheless unimaginable." Of course its unimaginable! Porn has existed since cavepeople drew on walls!
knorl05
*dont shoot the messenger* through the years i've heard that african amer. men do not prefer to perform cunnilingus. that may have been the basis of his joke.

ps. (i realize this may be stating the obvious..but..)we will always have different preferences.. maybe a porn-free world would be possible if the self righteous puritans had their way. if that were to be the case, i'm sure they'd cut out many other forms of self expression and personal enjoyment as well. some cultures see art forms like dancing as bad, that's just the way it is. that's why we have to continue speaking out for our rights.. i just think the problem comes in when we work to change others rather than co-exist.
girltrouble
not shooting anyone. that's a stereotype. for a while there were a few mc's(rappers) who were talking about how they wouldn't go down, but very quickly there were ones that did, and didn't mind talking verrrrry graphically about it. besides, i think there is only so long that women of any stripe would put up with being expected to go down without any reciprocity.

far as i can tell the mainstreaming of 'going down' probably happened in the 60's/70's with books like joy of sex, and the sexual revolution, although, i sort of remember something about rusty warren saying something and she was 50's? i'll have to see if i have her records still-- but that could take months....
tesao
men going down on women is not a new thing. check out vintage porn sometime, dating as far back as you can, black and white photos, drawings from before the camera was invented. there are depictions of oral sex from pretty much all perspectives (men on women, women on men, women on women, men on men, etc) i really enjoy the vintage photos -- before plastic surgery, when people looked real, expressions looked real, or beatific, or aroused, or just plain horny. when people were photographed/drawn as a whole being, not as genitalia. where they actually looked like they were having FUN (gasp) or worse yet, getting off.

and yah, i'm pretty sure that the patriarchy made them do that. especially the have fun part. (although, funny, none of them were wearing cardboard collars). and since the photos were black and white, everyone had brown eyes.
faerietails2
last year in my modern japanese women course, someone brought all these postcards of ancient japanese artwork that she'd gotten from the museum of sex. it may have been centuries old, but those japanese were into some dirrrrrrrrrrty stuff! it was awesome!
girltrouble
sure, i was talking about american mainstreaming of that, but there are plenty of things we think of as new, that aren't. transgendered people have pretty much always been here and there, i remember coming across a book with erotic postcards and business cards and it had illustrated plates from before the turn of the century for a place (a brothel) that advertised boys that looked like girls. fast forward to after the turn and they had photos from the same place...
mornington
even under the victorians - and prior to that - they had porn. Some of it was book-porn (the penguin book of victorian erotica, anyone?) but with the advent of photography it all got a lot easier. The same with transgender, although medical progress has made hormonal change possible as well.

A world without porn would only be possible if the entire human race was completely asexual, and had no interest whatsover in reproduction. Sex is pleasurable because if it wasn't, we wouldn't do it. Porn is pleasurable because it mimics sexual pleasure (rather than us mimicing porn) - if we weren't turned on by naked, aroused people, then we wouldn't have sex with them. The brain, however, is still turned on by images depicting arousal. Hell, if you showed a monkey a picture of a horny monkey, it'd get turned on. People, however, have different reactions on an individual basis - some people prefer books, gay porn, bdsm porn, still images, moving pictures, they don't want it, whatever. That's an individual's perogative, tbh. If you don't like porn, or it doesn't turn you on, then no doubt there's something that does. The problem with porn is that it has saturated a lot of popular culture, but the vast majority of porn is not especially woman-friendly (in terms of the attitudes it depicts). I think that's the important issue - not whether or not we watch porn, but thr effect it has on our culture, the expectations and views individuals hold.

Right... rant over. Sorry, been thinking about that all day, I figured I had to get it out somewhere.

oh, and I liked the comment someone made on the blog about jacking off and sex with another person not being the same thing. I honestly don't think we're going to change that - what needs changing is the way in which porn is made, and the attitude it projects. Perhaps also the visuals - more focus on the bodies of both/all participants - and acknowledgement that women could, and do, enjoy porn if it wasn't so... derogatory in a lot of cases
greenbean
Faeritails, I remember the first arousing imagery I ever saw was some little figurines in various sex positions at a bazaar in Chinatown. My parents were looking at linens and didnt catch me ogling them. I had no idea what they were doing but I knew it made me feel funny in the pants.

What bugs me most about Maddy's and Twisty's point of view is they dont really seem to have any genuine concern for the sexually exploited, but are more concerned with shoving down every womans' throats that we are "deprived' and "oppressed" and "brainwashed" into thinking we can enjoy sex the way men do. Its more about "look at these idiot 'fun feminists' who kid themselves about sex. What idiots" than "lets make this a safer, more enjoyable world for all women, including those who like sex and those who don't."
girlbomb
Well, I dislike the majority of commercially produced porn, but I like sex, all right. It's kind of a stereotype that those of us who are put off by most of what we understand to be "porn" are anti-sex or frigid, or that we want to control what other people say, see, or do sexually. I am 100 percent anti-censorship, and 100 percent pro sexual pleasure. I just want to shine a big light on what I perceive to be anti-woman propaganda.

And I don't think that most consumers of the majority of commercially produced porn are interested in "feminist alternatives" to their porn -- the industry seems to fill whatever niche the paying audience demands. If you want obese granny clown porn, you can get obese granny clown porn. I think a lot of the porn produced is ugly (and by ugly I mean physically unpleasant, unhealthy, or degrading outside the parameters of BDSM) because a lot of people want to jerk off to ugliness.

I see the majority of commercially produced porn as a symptom of sexist mindsets. And I think a lot of it helps reinforce those mindsets. So in that sense, I think it's cockblocking feminism.
girltrouble
i agree, bean, it's that complete dismissal of anyone who doesn't agree with them that gets to me. hey, gbomb doesn't like most porn, cool, more power to her, so and so does, more power to her. my thing is i think it's way too simplistic to say even, this is anti woman, boring? sure. mechanical, more often than not. but i when dealing with content, i think you have to look deeper than a simple dismissal. now i can understand how you can say and see that most porn is anti woman, but perhaps it's that i put so much energy into semiotics that to me, that you and i may mean something different or several different things from the same sequence of a non-porn film. why *shrugs* but that's me. i'm the sort that can have a long debate about the meaning of the final shot of the 400 blows.

why is porn, because it is thought to be disposable or for a more "base purpose," suddenly not subject to the same sort of reading i would give any other bit of celuloid? is it because it's purpose is to titilate? then what of a love scene in a non-porn movie? or a chase scene? in either case story takes a back seat to some sort of on screen action. to me semiotics is about deciphering visual language. do i think there are some movies that are without a doubt anti woman, absolutely, "gonzo" porn makes my skin crawl, and lord knows 90% of the titles of porn are racist, sexist and more, but is oral sex-- a woman going down on a man-- inherently woman hating? fuck no. is the filming of the act? maybe, maybe not. and this is my point-- it is the context. what words are used? what are the attitudes of the participants? how is the camera used? editing?

the first thing they teach you in any film class is that film is a bunch of images put together to create meaning. that goes for all moving visual medium-- music videos, commercials, films, television, videogames, comic books, and even the moving snippets on your cellphone. the point i am trying to make, in my overly labored way, is the same one i always make: a real feminist "porn" is about understanding that visual language and framing it with a feminist framework, not just throwing flowers and moonlight on screen for a second, or adding a romantic story line. after all, a woman going down on a man,(to go back to that eg.), can just as easily be about the woman's power and desire, not by dialog, but just by placing the images together in a different pattern. or by shooting them in a different way.

nickclick
QUOTE(girlbomb @ May 2 2007, 10:29 PM) *
I see the majority of commercially produced porn as a symptom of sexist mindsets. And I think a lot of it helps reinforce those mindsets. So in that sense, I think it's cockblocking feminism.

yes, girlbomb, yes.

of course there will always be a market porn, and there will be all kinds for all kinds - feminist, erotica, gay granny clowns, whatev. but yes, the mainstream, sexist crap is what is often defined as porn, by the mainstream.

think of all the mainstream fratboy types who don't even know anything else exists, or worse, would never admit to even themselves that anything other than the usual "normal" stuff turns them on, and criticize those who like anything else.

that's why i think alternative types (of anything really) need to make it into the mainstream.
nickclick
so sorry to double-post, but wanted to put this up before i forget.

in a Newsweek interview with Courtney E. Martin, author of “Perfect Girls, Starving Daughters: The Frightening New Normalcy of Hating Your Body” :

"Guys say porn has nothing to do with their real desires with real women. I can’t quite swallow that theory. If you spend a substantial amount of time looking at airbrushed, cosmetic surgery-ed women, that becomes part of your expectation. Even if you’re critical of that industry, it has to have an effect on the way you see the ordinary woman next door. Women know this deep down, and when they're less than the airbrushed supermodel, they feel like they're not going to be attractive to guys. And it's not a far jump from that to the diet mentality and eating disorders."
anna k
Sometimes the media fucks with my head and makes me think that all young guys want a total babe who is wild in bed, can hang with the boys, make dirty jokes, and have a perfect body. I would feel lower than that, because I've had limited sexual experience, have a round belly, and am not interested in sports or drinking a lot. I also can feel like a prude because I don't get sexually turned on a lot by most guys and therefore feel bored or indifferent.

The best porn that I've liked have usually been with people who are smiling and look like they're having a blast, not just saying dirty-talk with a grimace or using stock phrases like "Oh yeah, you're a nasty girl aren't you?" and "Fuck my dirty cunt hole!" I like Aurora Snow and Chloe for their unique looks and complete enjoyment. Aurora looks like a 70's hippie and is very nymph-like and cute in a Drew Barrymore way, while Chloe is darker-looking and can almost be a sexpert for a magazine (one video featured her instructing another girl how to put two fists inside of her vagina).
erinjane
I dunno, I have trouble getting behind ideas like what you quoted, nickclick, I guess because I've never felt that way. I excpet there are guys out there who want girls who look like airbrushed models, but I don't want to be with any guys like that, so looking like an airbrushed model has never concerned me. For the most part, and for the average guy (and i use the term 'average' loosely), I don't think porn has to do with what men wish the women in their lives looked like. I've been with guys who watch porn and I never felt like they wanted some girl in a movie more than they wanted me. I never really felt like they wanted some girl in a movie at all, it's just something to turn them on and get them off (or if we're both watching it, then to get us off together).

I've said many times that I enjoy porn myself, and watching it, for me, has nothing to with how stereoptyipcally attractive the actors are, but with how into the scene they are and how realistic it is. I think I like the kind of porn you like, anna, where it looks like people are having fun and enjoying themselves. It's so easy to tell when it's all acting and nothing is authentic. I guess because I have this kind of reaction to porn I watch I assume the guys I'm with have the same reaction, and so far no one has proven me wrong.
greenbean
I would say that there are two catagories of debates and concerns feminists have with porn:

1. Does it make men feel more entitled to casual sex or more alarmingly, forced sex? Is a society where more porn is consumed more disrespectful towards its women? Are porn actors protected/are health regulations upheld?

and 2. Is porn making my boyfriend wish I was hotter or dirtier? Is porn influencing women to starve themselves/get plastic surgery? Is porn being too accessable to a younger audience that is not mature enough to understand the complexity of sex? Is porn making young girls act slutty to get attention?

I for one am more concerned with the issues of the first catagory, but if I had kids I would be concerned with the second as well. I always feel a bit silly discussing the so-called epidemic of slut culture, seeing as how I'm not a parent and hell, pretty slutty myself. Nor am I concerned with Frat culture, since its sooo far away from my world and always has been.

ETA: I agree with Erinjane that it is a myth that most guys want a girl with unhealthy and unrealistic looks. Most guys I know are repulsed by the too-skinny runway model look and find the pornstar look to be clownish. My guy housemates' big crush right now: Pam from The Office. They melt for her.
thereshegoes
nick, i can honestly say that was my experience, which is why i am both appalled and fascinated by mainstream porn. but i don't know if it's a universal. i know a lot of other women who had eating disorders and many of them had never seen much porn.
maelstrom
QUOTE(greenbean @ May 3 2007, 10:46 PM) *
My guy housemates' big crush right now: Pam from The Office. They melt for her.


Absolutelly:
Pam Anderson freaks me out, "Office" Pam makes me smile.


skinwithoutscars
gb, i think i'm parallel to you. i tend to frame the porn debate this way:
1. what is porn's role as an ingredient in our rape-saturated culture? does it encourage such behavior? how so? what IS up with sexualized and violent imagery? can nonviolent sexual images exist and be popularized?

2. can sex work be freely chosen in a culture that is of two minds about sex? i mean, our culture is so weird, with sex being highly valued and yet denigrated. how can someone navigate those waters and truly be okay, and should we as feminists condone sex work for the few that can do it joyfully, work to create joyful sex work opportunities for more people, while still condemning the horribly degrading conditions of much sex work in this culture?

both are difficult questions, but the second one seems more complicated in the asking (ie, trying to separate all the threads clearly enough to talk about them), and the first more complicated in the answering, if that makes sense.

and then, i think, i come to your questions:
3. does porn affect how we view women/sex (question 1) and does that affect my relationship with men/women i know? does it affect my relationship with myself? and finally,
4. even if *i* know how to deal with it, how does porn affect young women who may not know how to process such complicated messages? how can these young women be guided through such a morass, or protected if necessary? how do we de-fang our sexualized culture for the sake of girls?

not sure if all that's clear, but this is how i ask the questions in my head.
mornington
skin, I see porn as needing pretty much the same questions asked.

while I don't think a lot of mature men want women who look like the women they see in porn movies (or modelling clothes), because they jerk off to it, a lot of women assume they must find them attractive, and therefore think they ought to look like that. And then as more women want to look a certain way, it becomes more popular (we are nothing if not herd animals) and it just escalates. It's probably linked to fashion as well. I know that's a very simplistic explanation, and it's a lot more complicated, but...
dirtyfrenchnovel
QUOTE(anna k @ May 3 2007, 03:12 PM) *
Sometimes the media fucks with my head and makes me think that all young guys want a total babe who is wild in bed, can hang with the boys, make dirty jokes, and have a perfect body. I would feel lower than that, because I've had limited sexual experience, have a round belly, and am not interested in sports or drinking a lot. I also can feel like a prude because I don't get sexually turned on a lot by most guys and therefore feel bored or indifferent.

The best porn that I've liked have usually been with people who are smiling and look like they're having a blast, not just saying dirty-talk with a grimace or using stock phrases like "Oh yeah, you're a nasty girl aren't you?" and "Fuck my dirty cunt hole!" I like Aurora Snow and Chloe for their unique looks and complete enjoyment. Aurora looks like a 70's hippie and is very nymph-like and cute in a Drew Barrymore way, while Chloe is darker-looking and can almost be a sexpert for a magazine (one video featured her instructing another girl how to put two fists inside of her vagina).



i know what you mean..i so don't have a perfect body, i don't feel turned on by most guys either...i feel like you do..bored or indifferent.. i also really like porn where everyone seems like they're enjoying themselves..it feels so much healthier
crinoline
Okay- regarding your average boy next door.

He wants to see your average girl next door- being fucked and enjoying it. But, nearly all that is immediately and freely available to him is mainstream surgically-altered porn. That does the job, but it's not what he really wants. The problem appears to be that every boy-next-door is afraid to demand respectful porn with normal people in it, because they are afraid to appear un-manly. There is a pervasive myth that manly men like huge fake boobs and degrading sex.
That's just what I've gathered from talking to my male friends about porn and their relationship to it.
knorl05
skinwithoutscars: those are excellent questions. i do believe we often times forget about the impact our choices about porn and sexuality have on young children, girls in particular. they are highly impressionable, and the more sexualized we become as a society, the more our children are exposed to this lifestyle.
nickclick
QUOTE(knorl05 @ May 8 2007, 04:44 PM) *
skinwithoutscars: those are excellent questions. i do believe we often times forget about the impact our choices about porn and sexuality have on young children, girls in particular. they are highly impressionable, and the more sexualized we become as a society, the more our children are exposed to this lifestyle.

knorl, i'm not sure whatcha mean by our society being "sexualized," but i think teaching children about healthy sexuality is a good thing, especially early on, when they're already saturated with images from pop videos, professional wrestling, video games, etc etc etc. i don't think blocking some cable stations is enough. people need to talk to their kids about sex, so it's not so taboo when the time comes when they're going to have sex. and they're gonna have sex!

does only talking about abstinence keep teens from porking? of course not. we encourage sex education about birth control etc. so let's give them the emotional preparation too.

in fact, i have a friend who was raised super-catholic, with her mom always telling her to keep her legs closed. she had her first child when she was 17. she said she was so curious about this thing that her mom said was so bad. i think someone here on the boards has a quote to the same effect.
mornington
I think there's a great difference between "healthy" and "unhealthy" sexualisation. Exposure to degrading porn alone is bad - but perhaps with healthy, honest education, the effects of porn on young will be reduced. To be honest, I think good sex-ed is more that how not to get pregnant (although that's a big part) - it needs to talk about sex in culture, attitudes, and so on, removing a lot of taboos, which might actually help teenagers become less curious about sex as well as more prepared to have it. Nothing on earth is going to stop people having sex, but the more they know, the better. Some of them won't listen, admittedly, but it's better than being told "just don't do it".

crin, that's the way I see it too. I'm the same way - I'd like to see the boy/girl next door getting fucked and enjoying it. Enjoyment really seems to be the key to a lot of people's interest in porn (certainly on here).
knorl05
nickclick: "when they're already saturated with images from pop videos, professional wrestling, video games, etc etc etc." that's exactly what i was referring to. that is why i am saying it is so important to be aware of the messages our kids are picking up on, and to be open and honest about them.
nickclick
knorl, i certainly agree. kids get mixed messages. remember the hoopla over janet jackson's nipple at the superbowl? parents noticed that, but didn't see that their whole song and performance was sexual and demeaning to women. so it's okay to sing about ripping off women's clothes, but we can't actually see women's bodies?
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