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ginger_kitty
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Apr 16 2007, 08:31 PM) *
I'm sure everyone has already heard about this but there was a shooting at Virginia Tech this morning. It's believed there are now 31 or 32 people dead (I keep reading different numbers) including the shooter. They haven't released his name or whether or not he was shot by police or shot himself.



That kind of news is always shocking to me. I know it's not a new thing, but I just can't wrap my head around what causes a person to such a thing.
nickclick
he shot himself, but it doesn't seem that was his original intention, because he was wearing a bullet-proof vest and the serial numbers were filed off all his guns.

i'm not quick to blame guns or virginia's lazy gun laws, but are guns such a common sight in VA that noone paid attention to the guy as he somehow got across campus strapped with like 4 or 5 guns and ammo?
hoosierman78
QUOTE(nickclick @ Apr 17 2007, 02:14 PM) *
he shot himself, but it doesn't seem that was his original intention, because he was wearing a bullet-proof vest and the serial numbers were filed off all his guns.

i'm not quick to blame guns or virginia's lazy gun laws, but are guns such a common sight in VA that noone paid attention to the guy as he somehow got across campus strapped with like 4 or 5 guns and ammo?


Actually, he had two guns. A 9mm handgun, and a .22 LR handgun, neither of which would be difficult to hide in everyday clothing (especially considering it is rather chilly in Blacksburg right now - more, heavier clothes). This guy broke numerous firearms related laws prior to firing the first shot (I don't believe it is consistant with Federal law for a non-citizen/permanent resident to be able to legally purchase a firearm, if someone else bought it for him, that would also be an illegal gun sale, not to mention that it is not legal in VA to carry a concealed firearm on school grounds, regardless of whether or not you have a permit; oh, there's the whole filed off serial number thing too - very illegal).

I can't begin to describe my anger at the whole situation. The senseless loss of lives, the new, tougher 'security' measures that will almost certainly be enacted so some politicians can say that they're 'doing something' to make us 'safer'. The renewed assault on firearms ownership. The increased scrutiny of every foreign student that comes here to study. What's even sadder is, in a day or two, the tragedy of what took place will be lost as the elected mouth pieces turn and twist it to promote their personal agendas, rather than actually doing something (improved access to mental health care on college campuses maybe) to help prevent this from happening in the future. The sad truth is, since the beginning of time, people have 'lost it' and in the process taken numerous lives. The reasons for losing it may be different, but the outcome is the same. I can't help but think that, this guy must have been acting strange in the days leading up to this. I wonder if authorities were warned (as the were in Columbine) about his behavior, yet did nothing (as they did in Columbine).

I read somewhere that VA recently defeated a bill that would have allowed concealed carry permit holders to carry their weapons on school grounds. This was done under the idea that, in order to get a permit, a certain amount of training and background investigation (above and beyond the FBI's instant check when you purchase a firearm) is required prior to the permit being issued. It is a moot point now, but I can't help but wonder what would have happened had one or more students in Norris Hall been armed. Maybe better, maybe worse in the end, it's difficult to say. At the very least though, it would have been a slightly fairer fight. Especially considering the police just formed a perimeter around the building as shots were fired, rather than going in to try and save the students (you know, their jobs).
grenadine
two guns and ammo is what i read, but yeah. it seems it would be kind of conspicuous.

the thing that shocks me - and i'm not blaming the victims - is that he apparently lined people up and executed them. in a full classroom. it's a terrible situation, but don't people realise that 20 or so 18-25 year olds could easily take one gunman down? and that the chances of dying from a gunshot hastily aimed are so much less than the chances of dying from a gunshot to the head or heart at close range? what is wrong with our society that we are so willing to be destroyed as individuals...when as a society, we are so willing to destroy other peoples?

gah.
culturehandy
I don't think that we will ever be able to fully understand why this kind of thing happens. There was a school shooting in september at Dawson College in Montreal, where the shooter killed himself after. He had extreme hatred. It's just a horrible situation all around.

my question is, the police force on campus is coming under fire for not locking down the school immediately after they knew about the initial shootings. I am curious of what you think of that.

And having students carry concealled weapons, that is just a scary thought, that would have made a bad situation even worse, how many people would have been caught in the cross fire.
hoosierman78
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Apr 17 2007, 03:52 PM) *
I don't think that we will ever be able to fully understand why this kind of thing happens. There was a school shooting in september at Dawson College in Montreal, where the shooter killed himself after. He had extreme hatred. It's just a horrible situation all around.

my question is, the police force on campus is coming under fire for not locking down the school immediately after they knew about the initial shootings. I am curious of what you think of that.

And having students carry concealled weapons, that is just a scary thought, that would have made a bad situation even worse, how many people would have been caught in the cross fire.


I'm not sure why they wouldn't at least warn the student body. According to what I've read so far (and I admit, as more & more info comes in, the story does seem to change a bit), after the first shooting, they caught the wrong guy, but then didn't warn the student body with more than an email? An email that, if in class, or on the way to class, the students had no chance to know even existed? At first judgement, it seems that VTech did not do a very good job in the two hours between shootings. Of course, had they cancelled classes and restricted everyone to dorms he very well may have walked back into the dorms to continue his spree. I do think that the death toll could have been greatly reduced had a)the students known what was going on, and b)the cops had put up the kind of perimeter & number of officers when the first shooting occured like they did while the guy was blasting away in the second shooting (as cops stood behind their squad car doors).

As for the students carrying a concealed weapon, please know that I am in no way advocating that everyone should. It is in my experience that, those that go to the trouble of getting a permit to carry also take a great deal of time training with their weapons. A trained, armed individual is a great neutralizer of threats. I will agree that in the wrong hands, a weapon in a highly stressful situation would most likely do as much, if not more harm than good.


In reference to the guy lining up and executing people, I've read that he did this, and I've read that he didn't. Having never been in that situation before, I'd like to think that I could muster up the will to try and fight off imminent execution, but who's to say I wouldn't freeze up? I've never been shot at, so I don't really know (and would rather never find out either).
maddy29
the bit I've read says that he just started shooting, didn't say anything at all. Some kids climbed out of the windows, others laid on the ground pretending to be dead. it's awful.

i've also read that the shooter was after his girlfriend. i don't know if this is true or not, but this is why the police and the administration didn't act-they thought it was "just a domestic (meaning domestic violence) situation. Even though they already had two dead bodies! They thought oh it's just some lover's quarrel? I don't get it. That's why they didn't act on it, they thought the shooter had left campus already and had no idea that he'd do another killing spree. Huh? He just killed two people and you aren't telling the students? Aren't closing down classes? Insane.

Now, this is just what I've read, who the heck knows what the truth is. But if it turns out to be true that the first two women who died were considered "just a domestic" and that's why those other 30 students died, there's going to be HELL to pay. Cause ya know, domestic violence is no biggie. I mean, how can they call two people murdered "just a domestic" ??????

It's just so sad, and awful.

Then I think of how many people died in Iraq this week. And I see Bush on T.V. talking about the murders. How come these students lives are valuable, and all hte people we kill or are killed daily in Iraq don't matter?
nickclick
even if it were "just" a isolated incident of domestic violence, the shooter was obviously in a rage or in some sort of mental anguish. we all fight with our partners, but we don't all shoot them. so a guy in a murderous rage, no matter who the target, is reason enough to alert a campus promptly.

but i don't totally blame the campus authorities. i imagine the local police has the authority to lock down a campus.

it's one of those situations i can't ever imagine how i'd react if in it. and i've lost loved ones but noone in such a violent and sudden way, i'm thankful. i don't know how i'd react to that either. how do people cope?
ginger_kitty
It's a very complicated situation. I am troubled by the campus not being locked down, when they discovered the first two bodies. But I am sure authorities couldn't have predicted what was about to unfold. The 'domestic' label is bothering me too, though. The first thing I was wondered about was why we haven't heard about anyone trying to overpower the shooter. Not to lay blame, I just can't imagine sitting by and letting the event play out.

I hate that people are already using this tragedy to talk about control, to me it trivializes the importance of the innocent people that lost thier lives or were wounded yesterday. Seems disrespectful.

Also, it seems like there were several warning signs(the staff being disturbed by his writing and reccomended counseling) about this guy being a possible ticking timb bomb and wonder if he could have been handled differently.

The whole thing is truly sad and unsettling. Sometimes I worry about the fate of humanity.
culturehandy
i think that in times of chaos, people just don't know what to do, and you go into shock.

There will be so many people who say this is why we should keep guns legal and why you can carry a gun, etc. Ginger, you are absolutely correct in saying that this takes away from the pain that the families are going through. We need to focus on the underlying issues as to why events like these keep on happening, like the incident at columbine; taber alberta, dawson college in montreal; and look at what happened in that Hutterite Colony.
pollystyrene
Am I the only one a little weirded out by the fact that the media keeps saying "South Korean gunman..."?

I mean, he was a permanant legal citizen, not the "Chinese national here on a student visa," as the early reports said. By my calculations, he's been here since he was 8 years old. At some point, especially when you come here that young, aren't you just an American?

If he was a caucasian who came over from, say, Germany, Sweden or Poland as a little kid, would they have felt the need to say where he was originally from?

Trust me, I know this is hardly the most important aspect of this, it's just something I noticed and I just fear a backlash against Asians and it's just another glaring example of our weird obsession to label everyone, especially when they look different.
missladyj
maddy I couldn't agree more with your last statement.

How many innocent people died in Sudan, or Iraq, or Afganistan today in just as vicious and violent way?
faerietails2
polly, i was wondering the same thing about the south korean thing.

this is all so awful. i was reading about some of the victims, and it just gave me chills. one of them (the professor trying to hold the door so his students could escape) was a holocause survivor. my head starts spinning just trying to take all of this in.
hoosierman78
QUOTE(ginger_kitty @ Apr 17 2007, 08:31 PM) *
It's a very complicated situation. I am troubled by the campus not being locked down, when they discovered the first two bodies. But I am sure authorities couldn't have predicted what was about to unfold. The 'domestic' label is bothering me too, though. The first thing I was wondered about was why we haven't heard about anyone trying to overpower the shooter. Not to lay blame, I just can't imagine sitting by and letting the event play out.

I hate that people are already using this tragedy to talk about control, to me it trivializes the importance of the innocent people that lost thier lives or were wounded yesterday. Seems disrespectful.

Also, it seems like there were several warning signs(the staff being disturbed by his writing and reccomended counseling) about this guy being a possible ticking timb bomb and wonder if he could have been handled differently.

The whole thing is truly sad and unsettling. Sometimes I worry about the fate of humanity.


I saw that about his creative writing instructor as well. The story I read didn't go into whether or not he actually received councelling, or if his instructor simply recommended he get some help. I'm very much against knee jerk reactions by those in authority, at the same time, I would think that the school administration or campus police dept. would have at the very least looked into the matter a little more closely. I mean, it's a creative writing class, the point is to channel your inner creativity - be it dark & morbid or light & happy. If it was bad enough to cause a creative writing instructor to pause & take notice, someone - especially given the warning signs that were missed in Columbine - should have stepped up and done something. It's hard to say, he may have just been too far gone by the time he began expressing himself in creative writing (who knows what they'll find if he kept any sort of private journals), but to do nothing, when this has all happened before, is simply an unacceptable failure of the school's administration.
pollystyrene
That RA that was killed, in the dorm, he was triple-majoring in Biology, Psychology and English. Someone said he also volunteered with disabled kids in his free time (what free time, with a triple major?)

It's just such a waste.
faerietails2
EDIT: he was an english major; have you all seen two of his manuscripts from his creative writing class? If I were his teacher, I'd think that kid was a ticking timebomb, creative writing or not.

from the NY Times Lede:
Ian MacFarlane, who now works for AOL and graduated from Virginia Tech in 2006, according to his Facebook profile, introduced the plays in gripping fashion:
When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."
And goes on to describe how the rest of the class felt during peer-review sessions:
When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn't pressure him to give closing comments.
Arcadia
What happened at Virginia Tech really is such a tragedy.

My stepmother came home from work on Monday and was in such a foul mood and I didn't know why until I turned on the television and it was all over the news. She is an educator working on her Ph.D so I think it really hit home for her. She is the principal of a school that has a lot of potential to be volatile and deals with bad situations daily, although not of the VT maginitude.

I hate feeling like there isn't anything that anyone can do in these situations. It makes me angry that there are always "warning signs" in hindsight, but no one really acted on them, or they tried and it was just too late/impossible. It makes me feel very, very small.

It's getting really bad when places of learning become places of bloodshed.
I get very disenchanted with the human race too easily, and that is unsettling.
culturehandy
So the Va authorities are now saying that the shooter was stalking a young woman on campus, in person, via phone and e-mail. So, if they knew this, WHY did they do nothing to rectify the situation? I knew someone who went to a very well regarded university, and he got kicked out for sexually harassing a woman there. (note: I hated this asshat, I just knew him through work). Why did no one do anything about this?
faerietails2
I read in the NY Times that it was 2 women he was stalking, and that he was sent to a mental health institution afterward but that no charges were filed. Eek.

PLUS one of his writing teachers had told the university to make him drop her creative writing class because his writings were intimidating, and the class roster had dropped from 70 to 7.
maddy29
polly and others-yeah, that "korean" thing is bugging me too. This whole time it's been "the asian shooter" as if that makes any difference! And yeah, I would say he's an American since he's been living here since he was a little kid. I wonder if it's an attempt to dissociate ourselves from him? Like, he was an "outsider." I dunno. I think everyone is just in shock and it's an awful situation, and no matter what, we can't go back in time and change it.

there were definitely people who did things to save lives-helping students out of the windows, barricading the doors, etc.

I'm extremely bummed about the abortion ban being upheld. And about it not even making top headlines because of the VT shooting.
culturehandy
Even the Globe and Mail has a hideous headline, they called him dark and Demented. Well if people were calling me demented I think I'd get a tad upset...not that I am justifying what he did, but perhaps this is a reason that people do what they do? He obviously had some mental illness, it's sad that they "system" has failed everyone involved in this event.

70 - 7, that is crazy! I recall reading something, perhaps the globe and mail again, where a student said he immediately thought of the shooter as the one who did it, before it was announced who the killer was.
pollystyrene
That was in Nikki Giovanni's class, right faerie?

The latest is that NBC received a package he sent to them before he went on the rampage (they said the time stamp on the box indicates that's what he did in that 2 hour gap) containing his writing, videos and photographs. No wonder they hardly found anything at his house. NBC has turned it over to the FBI.
ginger_kitty
The Korean thing is bothering me as well. He has been in America since he was 8!! Christ. I really believe it is a way to disconnect ourselves as a country from a person we simply can't understand or explain. Probably not meant to create malice towards Koreans, but I hate the negative implications that will most likely spawn from it.

I can't believe all the warning signs that were ignored/overlooked with this guy, though. It's just shocking.
kittenb
You know, I am actually not anti-hunting, but hunting endangered species is just barbaric. And then to just leave the animal! There is just no point to it.

Hunters kill one of last Amur Leopards
Mon Apr 23, 12:13 PM ET

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Hunters in Russia's Far East have shot and killed one of the last seven surviving female Amur leopards living in the wild, WWF said on Monday, driving the species even closer to extinction.

Last week environmentalists said there were only between 25 and 34 Amur leopards -- described as one of the most graceful cats in the world -- still living in the wild.

At least 100 are needed to guarantee the species' survival which depends upon female leopards breeding. There are more male leopards in the wild than female because cats tend to breed males when under stress, WWF said.

"Leopard murder can only be provoked by cowardice or stupidity, in this case most likely by both," Pavel Fomenko, WWF's biodiversity coordinator in Russia's Far East said in a statement.

A hunter shot the leopard through the tail bone. It tumbled over and was then beaten over the head with a heavy object, WWF said. Amur leopards have not been know to attack humans.

Environmentalists have urged the Russian government to introduce tighter controls on its national parks in the Far East to crack down on leopard hunting.

They also want more done to protect the animal's natural environment and food supply, which they say is being destroyed by human development.

A local wildlife watchdog received an anonymous tip-off that a leopard had been killed. State wildlife officers found the dead animal after a day of searching. The leopard died on either April 15 or April 16, WWF said.


mornington
headlines like that make me hate people.

I'm not against hunting - regulated, there-are-plenty-to-go-around hunting - but this is just stupid. and they're not even hunting for demand for it's skin or something, which is at least understandable (supply and demand and all that) even if it's reprehensible.
hoosierman78
So let me get this straight. First of all, they go out hunting, and instead of making a clean kill they shoot it in the ass then club it to death? To top it off, it's not only an endangered species, but one that is so endangered that it very easily will become extinct in the near future? To complete the trifecta, they left the animal's corpse out in the woods? (the last one is an assumption based on info in the article). No excuse for any of that. If you're not a good enough shot to make a clean kill, then practice up and wait until next year. If you're not going to use the animal (meat, fur, etc) then there's no reason to be hunting in the first place. I can't even comment on the whole shooting an endangered species. That goes against everything that a true conservationist (what most hunters would consider themselves) would do.

And hunters wonder why so many people think we're barbarians. Stupid fucktards like this, that's why.
pollystyrene
Well, I can't take pity on men of his kind, even though he now takes it in the behind.

Sorry, I couldn't resist ohmy.gif
doodlebug
Oh boo hoo. He's sorry for his behaviour. Sooooo sorry. Boo hoo.

I once sat in the courtroom as part of a women's silent protest of a local man who had murdered his wife. He had physically abused her for years. This time, he beat her to death because, crime of all crimes, she (a full-time nurse as well as a mother of small children) hadn't done his laundry that day. In the courtroom, he cried and cried and snotted and the whole bit, saying how sorry he was.

Yeah, he was sorry. Sorry he got caught and was going to be punished.
culturehandy
*Laughs hysterically at that douche bag crying*

Doodle, I second that.
crazyoldcatlady
LOVES IT!

fucker.
faerietails2
Isn't this the second time he's broken down in court? Because I know they held him in contempt for trying to give a guard $100 for a water bottle or something, since having money in jail is against regulation, and he cried then too.

Either way, I'm happy. Stupid fucker. I hope he rots there.
pollystyrene
Most undignified way to die EVER. That poor woman. It's a little hard to not laugh, though.
culturehandy
That is pretty awful. Although, the following could be equally as humiliating...

Zoo keeper Friedrich Riesfeldt (Paderborn, Germany) fed his constipated elephant 22 doses of animal laxative and more than a bushel of berries, figs and prunes before the plugged-up pachyderm finally got relief. Investigators say ill-fated Friedrich, 46, was attempting to give the ailing elephant an olive oil enema when the relieved beast unloaded. The sheer force of the elephant's unexpected defecation knocked Mr. Riesfeldt to the ground where he struck his head on a rock as the elephant continued to evacuate 200 pounds of dung on top of him.

pollystyrene
Wow, that is bad! But pretty much his own fault. I mean, even in humans, a laxative doesn't start working immediately. Once it does kick in, it's effective, but after 22 doses of medicine and all the fruit, (then the olive oil enema he was trying to give him) he should have known better. Probably unpleasant (though a relief) for the elephant, too.
culturehandy
It's like the darwin awards. what on earth were you thinking?
pollystyrene
Yeah, that's what I was thinking, CH! I hope they didn't do something stupid like put the elephant down or something. And this guy was a zookeeper?!?!? WTF?

Here's a story about how the governor of Oregon tried to go shopping with the amount the average family in OR gets in food stamps. It sounds like it was just raise awareness of how difficult it is to feed a family with food stamps. Um, duh. Now what are they going to do about it?
culturehandy
I work for a social assistance agency. And people always kick up a storm about little people get, yes we know that it's shit money, and you want to give people an incentive to work, but when it all comes down to it, nothing ever changes, as the ideology is, you don't want to give people too much so they rely on the government for everything. I suppose that things are also different in Canada, what with subsidized day care and free health care and what not. Still...
pollystyrene
Ohhh, you don't say....

What a scumbag.
snafooey
Huh?

I feel really sheltered.
bunnyb
wow, that article should be 40 years out of date.

segregated proms? wtf?
culturehandy
Yup, asshats attorney is right, when it rains it pours. It's about fucking time that asshole got what was coming to him? I'd like to see the video, Francis in Jail, I'd keep on watching the part that shows him cry. I wonder if he'll get groped. Hee.

Segregated proms??? uhhh???? That still exhisted???? WTF???
culturehandy
On a lighter note. Damn.
nickclick
i prefer bottles, and oh yeah, cleanliness.

i didn't know this about the Quran:

New look at a word in Quran ignites debate on wife-beating

"That doesn't mean, he said, that the Quran sanctions beatings. He cited Islamic writings that place limits on the hitting, saying they should not be in the face, should not cause harm, and could be administered with a toothbrush. He added that Islamic tradition says Muhammad never hit his 11 wives."

How could it not sanction beatings if it's describing how to hit (one or any of) your wife(ves)????
candycane_girl
I don't really know how to answer your question nickclick, but your post kind of reminded me of the rule of thumb. Something in the old days where the law said that you couldn't beat your wife with a stick that was thicker than your thumb (I think).


ch, I can't remember where I first saw that post but damn, isn't that crazy?! That place must have smelled so bad.
culturehandy
How could anyone live like that? It reminds of How Clean is Your House?
crazyoldcatlady
jack valenti died.
hm. who will carry the "torch" now?
faerietails2
this is horrible, but after watching this film is not yet rated, hearing that jack valenti died is just like, "psh. whatever."
culturehandy
This made headline news on CBC and CNN?
ginger_kitty
I am sucker for stories like this:

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles/_a/te...S00010000000001

What a brave little Jack Russell! Sometimes I worry stories like these feed the paranoia about Pit Bulls being savage, but they never seem to give enough details about the pit bulls. Had they attcked before, etc...
culturehandy
That is so sad! Amazing that such a teeny dog was so brave and fearless to take on two pitbulls.
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