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girltrouble
2xpost
girltrouble
it's good to see you posting hoosier. you always have something to add. but i think we need to pull this back to the case in this point-- that being a mother of atleast 12. who, from the latest account has conceived all of her children via ivf. which from what you are saying could not have been cheap. either way. but it seems to me that for her it is about the pregnancy and the attention you get as a mother of a young child, since she's obviously not as into taking care of kids when they are older. i think it is important to talk about the comparative costs, but i think this woman's issues have little to do with cost, and everything to do with the attention mothers receive.
culturehandy
Soooooooo
jsmith
If they're going to slam a 60 yo woman for daring to want to have children and actually go through with it, they had better start vilifying men who have children at that age. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
culturehandy
i agree, I think the concern here is who is going to take care of these children should something happen to the parents? As we know health problems increase with age. Are there ethical concerns here?
culturehandy
oops
jsmith
Men land themselves in hot water in Afghanistan for translating the quran This is exactly why I, personally, think religion has no place in government/politics.


That's definitely a concern (re: what would happen to children of older parents should something happen to them), but right now that's the only ethical question I can think of.
pollystyrene
I think some of these cases, be it the octuplet mom or the 60-year-old woman, are broaching the territory of science doing stuff just to show it can....are they finding willing participants (post-menopausal women, and/or women who want as many babies at once as science is willing to try) to help conceive just to prove they can do it? I'm sure it's not as blatant as that- they're not putting ads out into newspapers looking for people, but I think it is exploitive.....there's lots of things people want to do that doctors just shouldn't do- like those people who have obsessions with amputation and look for a doctor to saw off a perfectly good limb. They usually have to go to Paraguay or some place to find someone to do it.
prophecy_grrl
can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.

Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins. Creepy . . .

starship
Florida
pollystyrene
Here's the Jezebel article about that one, starship.

That's just horrific, like something you'd see on that Scare Tactics show as a prank. Now it's just fodder for the pro-lifers. Obviously, there was negligence at that clinic, but the pro-lifers are already turning it into a normal scenario at abortion clinics. Oh, and they're now calling them "abortion mills", not just clinics. Nice.
roseviolet
I didn't think someone could legally get an abortion at 23 weeks. Isn't 12 weeks the usual limit? I guess I don't know much about abortion laws.
pollystyrene
I think after 12 weeks is when it's considered late term abortion (a.k.a. partial birth abortion)...I think different states have different laws for that.
geekchickknits
QUOTE(prophecy_grrl @ Feb 6 2009, 04:58 PM) *
can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.

Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins. Creepy . . .


I'll try and find the link to the interview, but I saw an interview with her (and it totally looks like she's had nose and lip work done) and every time she's had IVF treatments she was implanted with 6 eggs. She said her goal was to have 7 kids.

I know for a fact in Canada, doctors giving IVF treatment are not allowed to implant more than four, and it really depends on a woman's age - in Canada the maximum zygotes she could have had would be two.

EFC: Found it.
stargazer
since i'm not familiar with the process of IVF, maybe hoosierman could let us know, i'm wondering if any kind of counseling is provided for people seeking IVF treatment. most medical procedures from abortion, gastric bypass, and sex reassignment, require counseling pre- and post- treatment. i'm wondering if this element could've been included in IVF treatments. i think prophecy makes a great point about one's identity being determined by motherhood. i think i'm was surprised that the mother of the octopulets admitted to wanting kids to ease her lonely childhood. i'm sure she is not the first person to have kids for this reason. i guess i'm more surprised that she made this statement with so much scrutiny already.
jsmith
Re: Women who feel the need to define their identity and worth through motherhood:

I don't think anyone can blame someone for feeling this way. After all, the human animal is hardwired to pass on its genes, female and male alike. Some people just feel this urge much more acutely than others.
zoya
ok, on a totally catty, completely superficial tip, did anyone see the TV interviews with the octuplets' mother? She has SOOO had work done on her face, and not good work. Trout pout all to hell...

sorry sorry sorry, feminist transgression... but I had to say it. Blame it on me living in LA for a few years... blink.gif
vixen_within
QUOTE(geekchickknits @ Feb 7 2009, 10:53 AM) *
I'll try and find the link to the interview, but I saw an interview with her (and it totally looks like she's had nose and lip work done) and every time she's had IVF treatments she was implanted with 6 eggs. She said her goal was to have 7 kids...

EFC: Found it.


Yeah I think it was seven total she was going for, not seven all at once. Her mom said they didn't know that all of the embryos would survive, they only expected one more kid, according to her.

When I saw the follow up of the mother coming out and giving explanations my first thought was, "Damn I wish she hadn't tried to explain and just let everyone go fuck themselves." It's irritating how eagerly people judge mothers *especially* if there's a whiff of poverty & out-of-wedlock about them. I'm just glad she's not a Black woman so we wouldn't have to wade through THAT internet bs (can you imagine?)

I guess large families go against the modern wisdom that children need to be saturated with individuated attention, but it isn't very long ago that large families were commonplace in America and guess what? The kids turned out FINE psychologically. I have no problems with a good mother having as many kids as she wants. My conflict comes from my own inner squirming at the thought of people like the Duggan family - and look at them, 2 parents, enough money, community support. But I find them so creepy and culty. Yet I had no problem with Ms. Octuplet's choices, go figure.

HOWEVER....
There's a cah-razy internet rumour about the identity of the father.

This is the blog that's on the case: http://thehollytree.blogspot.com/2009/01/w...-octuplets.html

Soloman, the name of the purported sperm donor, is really close to (and in fact just another version of) Suleman. And the records show that the first four kids have listed as donor "David Soloman". The English name "David" is "Doud" in Arabic. Father: Edward Doud Suleman.

What if...what if Nadya's IVF babies were really her father's? Ok, I'm totally wildly speculating here, for the hell of it! But check it out, her parents still live together but are legally divorced. What if the father takes care of her children because he feels guilty (for what?), and/or they really are HIS?

Ha ha...just fueling the soap opera for today. Just remember, if it ends up on Oprah, you heard it here first, lol.
hoosierman78
QUOTE(stargazer @ Feb 7 2009, 05:34 PM) *
since i'm not familiar with the process of IVF, maybe hoosierman could let us know, i'm wondering if any kind of counseling is provided for people seeking IVF treatment. most medical procedures from abortion, gastric bypass, and sex reassignment, require counseling pre- and post- treatment. i'm wondering if this element could've been included in IVF treatments. i think prophecy makes a great point about one's identity being determined by motherhood. i think i'm was surprised that the mother of the octopulets admitted to wanting kids to ease her lonely childhood. i'm sure she is not the first person to have kids for this reason. i guess i'm more surprised that she made this statement with so much scrutiny already.


All I can speak to is the process at the particular dr's office my wife & I were visiting, as we have only seen one fertility dr. From the books we've read, their process seems to be close to the norm. Had we gone through with it (pending adoption anywhere from now until first of Mar. kind of quashed IVF for now), we would have gone to a couple sessions where they explained to us the potential for a multiple birth, but the overall goal was a single baby. They would have also explained possible side effects of the fertility drugs. It was explained at our last appointment that given our situation (wife is as far as we know perfectly fertile. I, on the other hand, am not) the most he would implant would be two embryos, and there was a high probability of both taking. Given our relative youth, and the fact that there are no issues with my wife, he saw no reason to implant more than that - and made it clear he wouldn't even if we asked. He said that with each additional fetus, the health risks to both the mother & babies drastically increases. He also said that in his experience, he's never implanted more than 5 embryos at a time, even for women that have great difficulty becoming pregnant. He can't justify the risk of having a 'litter' with his Hypocratic oath of 'do no harm'.

As for counselling after the treatment, I can't say as we have not reached that step. We were not told of any post procedure counselling, only the follow up appointment to see if it worked.

stargazer
QUOTE(hoosierman78 @ Feb 10 2009, 11:25 AM) *
He can't justify the risk of having a 'litter' with his Hypocratic oath of 'do no harm'.


thanks hoosierman for sharing your story. it sounds like you had a conscientious doctor, thinking of your wife and the child.
candycane_girl
The octuplet mom really pisses me off. I don't know if anyone agrees with me but if she had to have IVF in the first place, I think that she should have been grateful just to be able to have one baby let alone 6. In the Dateline interview tonight she fully admitted that she has no job, receives food stamps and is basically supporting herself and her kids with money from student loans. This is absolutely ridiculous. IVF is already insanely expensive and yet somehow this jobless woman managed to get the money together for it? The whole thing is so fishy to me. And I don't honestly see how 6 kids are going to deal okay with suddenly having 8 newborns in a 3 bedroom house. That's 17 people total in a 3 bedroom house. That is not okay.
pollystyrene
My guess is that the doctor who did the IVF did it pro-bono for the publicity. blink.gif Ridiculous.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(prophecy_grrl @ Feb 6 2009, 09:58 PM) *
can I just say that it is so nice to come into this thread and read posts about the octuplet thing that actually address the real problems with the situation? (that sounds really self-righteous and condescending, but I am so sick of the media hypocrisy) Just today I read something debating whether or not women with a history of depression should be "allowed" to get fertility treatments, WTF!? Don't get me started on all the implications about how poor people shouldn't be "allowed" to have children either. Leave it to the mainstream media - there could have been a discussion about the ethics of fertility treatments or the dangers of having a for-profit health care system. Even, god forbid, as is mentioned by a Dr. in the article polly posted, why does this woman (and so many others, though not as extreme) need to define her identity and worth through motherhood? Instead we get really disturbing crap about how there needs to be more regulations on women's bodies. It's especially disturbing because men's reproductive choices are never talked about in this way.



I think this situation is totally isolated and goes beyond a woman's reproductive right. This woman had IVF seven times. IVF costs upwards of $16,000 a pop, that's $114,000. Don't even get me started on the cost of other plastic surgeries.


When you decide to have a children you have a financial duty to that child to be able to take care of them and to provide. Some mothers need help and assistance to get on their feet when they have a baby.... and I am willing to bet that those women never had $16K sitting around, let alone used it to pump themselves full of embryos.

This woman did not have any good reason to purposefully have this many children. She cannot take care of them. They were not accidents. She has a financial duty to care for them without assistance, since she purposefully created this situation. The tax payers of this country should not have to assist this woman with the rearing of her children. In fact, they should be calling that CPS do thorough investigations, and possibly place some of these older children in Foster Care.

There are going to be 17 people in a small, cluttered, laundry filled, raunchy house. When her mother acknowledges these issues, and claims to think it will be impossible to care for all of the children when they arrive home, it is quite evident that there is a problem.

I can't stand those Duggar people and I think it is very environmentally irresponsible to have such huge families, but if they can care for those kids without government assistance, then go for it. It's their life.

It think this woman wants to get a TV show like John and Kate Plus 8, or use this to garner some kind fo fame and fortune.

She's disgusting.

As far as "the need to mother" and how women are more than that, if you haven't been paying attention, this lady is cuckoo bananas and her needs are insane. She's a nut.

QUOTE
Also interesting that the article mentions that she was not implanted with 8 embryos, but because her system was hyperstimulated, they multiplied. I read somewhere else that she actually ended up with 4 sets of identical twins.


She was implanted with 8 embryos, and one split, and then she lost one.
culturehandy
I was just having this discussion with a good friend of mine last night. The impications of this are vast. While we both support a woman's right to choose, there are so many issues that stem out of one person having 14 children.

Like GGG said, this woman chose to have this many children, she should be able to support them, it is not up to the state nor the tax payer to cover the costs of her child raising. I can understand if she was financially well over before hand, or any family for that matter, then someone or both loose their job. Okay I can understand needing a little help from social agencies. but NOT having a plan. Come on. I think her plan the whole time was to hope for corporate sponsorship. She's already talking money with corperations and these octoplets have been alive what? two weeks??

And what's going to happen next week when most people stop giving a flying fuck. When there is something new and shiney to take over the media spotlight? What is she going to do when her 15 minutes of fame are up??

Raising one child on your own or with a partner is already very exhausting, but raising 14 on your own with no job while relying on Social assistance?? And this was your life before you got pregnant with 8??? What the fuck is that.

Would this not be super demented if this was all part of some sick reality show. Where some network had paid for all of this? In this day and age, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was a FOX reality idea. talk about a conspiracy theory.

This woman, in my opinion, was completely motivated by her own selfishness. She did not and is not thinking about the needs of her other 6 children. she was too budy thinking about being a mother. And why is it that if I DON'T want to have chidlren and want to get fixed before the age of 30 that I need to go and talk to a psychologist whereas people can have 14 and 22 children, and this is completely acceptable? Is this also not extreme? People who want more plastic surgery need to go talk to someone, but the family who already has 6n children and is having 8 more, no that's not indicative of anything that could be psychologically wrong. I don't care if you are in a commited relationship or a single, if you already have six children, I think there really needs to be exploration with the couple or the single about why they feel more IVF is really necessary.

Everyone thinks that it's so great and how cute it is that there are 8 tiny babies. What the media rarely, if ever, talks about are the huge health risks that these children will face. The Globe and Mail had something about this over the weekend.
roseviolet
I think this whole story smells fishy & that's why it bothers me. She's been out of work on disability & living on food stamps for ages. So who paid for the IVF treatments? Also I've seen older photos of this woman - photos that appear to be taken in just the last couple years - and it looks like she's gotten a nose job & lip injections recently. Who paid for that? I don't care how many kids you have; if you can afford infertility treatments & plastic surgery, you shouldn't be on food stamps. It all seems very peculiar & suspicious.
girltrouble
the woman bothers me a bit, but what bugs me is the media cooing over the babies. yeah she had eight when she had seven already, but it seems to me she is a product of the media doing backflips everytime a group of 5 or more babies are born to one woman. they can't help themselves. did you hear ann curry's VO in her interview last night? she called them "deadly cute" really? they all look sickly since they are all in the ICU and have wires attached. how the fuck is that cute? even knowing this woman could not possibly be right in the head, they still shower her with attention, giving her interview after interview, blowing up that ego. of course she wants her 15 minutes of fame. she's probably been watching those shows with the duggans and jon + kate, where people drool over all the babies, is it no wonder in this fame obsessed culture we live in, that someone would think "birthin' babies" would be her ticket to fame? it's perfectly logical. not that it makes a lick of sense. yeah she needs help, but she's just a product of this sick cultural environment we've got... the worst part is the media obsession with oct/sext/whatever-tuplets.

people have talked about how she's had surgery to look like angelia joilie, i wonder if she's not in some dream world thinking she is her, and she's playing with all her (not adopted) kids waiting for brad to get home....
zoya
GT - that's been bothering me, too - there is this huge pink elephant in the middle of the room that none of the media is addressing: that this woman has openly stated (to that very media, no less) that she is having all these kids expressly to somehow "fix" her dysfunctional childhood. When I heard her say that I literally felt nauseous. It's like young teenagers getting pregnant so they have someone to love and take care of. I don't doubt that she loves her children, but whoever allowed this woman to go to the lengths she did to have all these kids, is just plain irresponsible. I really feel that the media just ignoring the red flags of this woman is pretty damn irresponsible too.

I wonder if she went to Mexico to get it done - a lot of people in SoCal head down there to get prescription drugs for cheaper, or to get dental or medical work done for a fraction of the cost of the US...

Divala
Octo-Mom disgusts me, too. I don't know how her oh-so-awful childhood as an only child can be nearly as bad as being one of 14 f-ing kids and getting no attention whatsoever. I heard that several have disabilities, too. One has autism, 4 will probably have cerebral palsey, and another has ADHD. I thought the story was that she was implanted with 6 embryos and 2 of them split, making 2 sets of twins and 4 others.

But still, I know it isn't a popular opinion, but I really don't believe that a woman on public assistance should be allowed to have all these other kids that she obviously can't support. She won't marry the father, but still wants to have a ton of kids by him. She can't work, and even if she did, the daycare costs would be astronomical. And who's left to pay that? The taxpayers of her county that asked for none of this. It's going to eat up probably millions of dollars of taxpayer money, and all for some stupid woman's vanity. If she could financially and emotionally support these kids on her own with no help from the state/county, fine, but she obviously can't and won't. Personally, I'd vote for all these new babies to be put in foster care. I just don't feel that a woman's right to choose in this case trumps the public interest of not wanting to be on the hook for millions of dollars because of one idiot woman's choice. She's obviously not being responsible with her body, so her right to have more children should be taken away.

As my 6-year-old nephew would say, "that's just selfish and stupid." He's smarter than most people I know.
prophecy_grrl
GGG - sorry if my post was misunderstood. I was not trying to make excuses for the woman, but rather pointing out the media hypocrisy, which I still stand by.

I don't think there is any doubt that she is mentally ill, but I also think that she is a victim of a medical community who took advantage of her illness rather then getting her the help she needed. The media circus is really what I take issue with - the only reason we've even heard of this woman at all is because they thought they had a fun, cute story about multiple births and then found out it wasn't so sweet after all. Now they've taken untold joy at being able to stretch this story out over weeks and publicly humiliate this woman (since we all apparently love to watch sickos self destruct so we can feel better about ourselves).

I realize it sounds as though I am defending her. Or saying that her choices should not be evaluated, that it is perfectly reasonable to have 14 children you cannot take care of. I'm not. However, I call BS on all the think-of-the-taxpayers-and-children's-well-being moralizing. I don't think you can ignore the slippery slope of those arguments - how this "extreme" and "isolated" situation has been used to remind us that the state really ought to have *some* say in women's reproductive choices and be able to decide who is fit (financially or otherwise) to be a parent.

The fact is that there are untold number of people - children and adults, too! - in this country living in far worse conditions than this - yet we don't seem to have the moral outrage there. In a few weeks, we'll promptly forget about this woman and those kids.
Christine Nectarine
I feel sorry for those kids. How long do we think it will be before children’s services step in and decide that those 14 kids are being neglected, and remove them to foster care? While I am decidedly pro-choice, and believe in “every child a wanted child”, I can’t believe any doctor would agree to IVF for this woman. And again, how the hell did she pay for it? I disagree however with those who say this woman should be cut off social assistance, since that will only make the kids suffer further.
I really wish the media and everyone would just leave this lady and her story alone. A decision to have or not have children is so individual, and each instance is unique (and complicated, as is bloody obvious here). Single mothers and parents on welfare don’t already get enough of a bad rap, and more attention to this story is not helping, it’s just blowing those issues way out of proportion.

As for the 60 year old woman in Calgary who just had twins, after receiving IVF in India, I say more power to her. While it’s not a decision I would see myself making at that age, I don’t think it’s the same as octo-mom at all. This woman and her husband have tried to have children for so long, and are as prepared as possible to care for their new sons. From the sounds of it, their decision to attempt IVF was an informed choice. The obvious concerns are their age and health, but really no more so than any other parents. There are so many kids raised by grandparents anyway, so how is this any different?
Christine Nectarine
actually, THIS blog post pretty much sums up what i think re: news babies.
culturehandy
I don't think anyone here said she should be cut off social assistance.

And I do agree that this woman has been exploited, but with that said where did anyone say she had to give an interview to the news agencies, why did this have to go public inthe first place.

As for viewing this as a slippery slope, yes I agree, that it coould be. She just had no plan in terms of how she was going to raise these children. I would say the same if this was a family who had finanical means, only this time instead of the parents raising, they would hire nannies. What's the point in having children if you are going hire someone to raise them. Why not just not have the children in the first place. Finances do play a role in this, who covered the cost of the IVF when she is not working. I think that is a very legititmate question. You don't have the money to feed the children you already had, but you can afford tens of thousands of dollars on IVF. Further, anyone who has childhood issues and thinks the way to solve that is to have children, there should be some exploration as to why this happens. This is not an issue of what she did with her body, but the end result and the means by how she got there. The "ethics" behind the fertility clinic, whoever the mysterious financial backer of this is, and how can you not think of the children in this?


I'd feel the same about it if she were employed full time, had a spouse or whatever. She had 6 children already, why the need to have 8 more. Further, yes people in other countries do have many children, but we also can't forget that infant mortality rates, in say, Congo, or whereever, are much much higher than the mortality rates here. Further, when you have an agriculture based society, you have larger families to support the family farm or land or whatver.

Generally speaking, familiy sizes decrease as a society evolves to become a state level society, and when ir evolved to become an industrializexd nation. Children is industrial nations are no longer seen as a commodity.

prophecy_grrl
thanks for that blog post, christine. it pretty much covers everything I've been thinking, too. so glad to hear that poor Italian woman died before Berlusconi had a chance to inseminate her. unsure.gif
girlygirlgag
This woman hired a publicist as soon as her anastheisa wore off. To say that fame and fortune by way of a litter of kids was not her plan, is naive at best.

This woman knew what she was doing and I think she should be held accountable. I also think she is unfit to be a parent. If you are going to purposefully have over 5 children, you better damn well be able to support them without public assistance. This woman paid over six figures to have fourteen children and she gets FOOD STAMPS? This is not what assistance is for and her actions are disgusting, selfish and reprehensible.

Unfortunately, we will be bombarded with this idiot, as her story is for sale to the highest bidder, and you better believe she is loving every minute of this.

I think her children would be better off in foster homes, than with her and her overworked parents.
zoya
.... oh, she's already selling her story and photos. over here in the UK, the Sun (a tabloid) ran the photos first - they're notorious for paying top dollar for stuff like that. and I agree, I'm sure she's loving it.
pollystyrene
Flipping through channels, the headline on CNN said "Octuplet mom speaks out against her critics: "Stop scrutinizing me!"

blink.gif

But gimme that book deal and tv deal and donate some money to me on my website..... ohmy.gif
stargazer
i hardly see her as a victim of the media. i think her misuse of public funds, such as student loans and welfare assistance, lends her to the criticism every public person is open to when using government monies to subside a lifestyle she is not able to afford herself.

i stand by my previous declaration that the octo mom's decision is one of greed which is defined as the excessive desire for more than one needs or deserves. Saying we don't have the right to criticize her choice as a public is absurd. I think I have the right to say I don't want to give her money for her kids or her plastic surgery.

Her actions were so selfish it is mind boggling. She did not care how her actions would impact her parents, children, or others. We are in an economic recession and I was just flabbergasted to hear her say in last night's interview that she was using her student loans to care for her children. Thanks. Thanks for making possibly harder for students, especially those with dependents, getting loans.

I found this article interesting.

oh polly, i think we should definitely start a website to the human fund! wink.gif
vixen_within
"This woman knew what she was doing and I think she should be held accountable. I also think she is unfit to be a parent. If you are going to purposefully have over 5 children, you better damn well be able to support them without public assistance. This woman paid over six figures to have fourteen children and she gets FOOD STAMPS? This is not what assistance is for and her actions are disgusting, selfish and reprehensible."

Meh, so she has a sugar daddy, or she used her savings from her previous disability insurance. You can't get plastic surgery and IVF on welfare.

So she's selling her story. Would people be happier if she got money from 'public funds' or from book deals? If you think about it, there really is no way for single mothers to make money to support themselves that isn't unacceptable to a ton of people. "Writing a book? She should be taking care of her children" "On welfare? Why should I [because it's always personal] pay for someone ELSE'S kids?"

The reality is nobody supports over 5 children by themselves no matter how they are conceived. The Dougans have lived most of their lives getting aid from churches, friends, and the government. Where's that outcry and scrutiny? How about the McCaughy septuplets? They're being supported by the government and the public, too, as well they should be. Her situation really is no different, except for the fact that this is a woman out of wedlock having babies. All the other multiple-birth mothers were glorified in the news. Now I'm not saying what she did is responsible or that her motivations are the perfect ones, non-dysfunctional ones, or even that she isn't BSC, but the anger that this story generates is amazing in itself. Those other families couldn't support 6+ babies either. NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SUPPORT THEIR KIDS PROPERLY. But Nadya is the only one being punished.

The media spin on this has also been remarkable. Think of the spin if she had been a war widow instead of a divorced single mom, leaving as many details the same except for that one.

*-*
Nadya Suleman, widow of David Suleman, recently gave birth to octuplets. Nadya and David already had 6 kids via IVF, because they were unable to conceive naturally. Nadya had multiple miscarriages before settling on IVF. Sadly, David passed away, but Nadya lives his dream and hers. Over the last 8 years, she has had 6 children with her beloved husband via IVF. Because there were embryos still left in the vault, Nadya had them implanted to save them from destruction. Miraculously all 8 survived despite medical predictions that only 1 would. She claims that she and David always wanted a big family because they were both only children, and she couldn't bear to see a piece of him, or indeed any embryo, get destroyed.

Nadya is a professional student, who has been on disability for a long time for back injuries, and her family has generously supported her during her grieving. Her father is heading back to Iraq for his extremely lucrative job, so he can help support these children. Since David's death, Nadya and her children have lived with her parents in a small 3 bedroom house.
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See the spin? She's still unable to care for the kids. She's still having 14 kids with a donor father. She's just this poor grieving widow, and the emphasis would not be on the "single mother incapable of caring for the kids", it would be "brave widow fulfills dream of large family, despite all odds". That's basically all the information we first received, with her being a widow, instead of a single gal.

How many REPORTERS would go further than this? The Nadya Suleman of my widow story would be overwhelmed with gifts and prizes, and be held in the limelight as a brave woman, only doing her duty by her dead husband. Instead we have the "divorcee, newly single, with 14 kids not by her husband, and no husband prospects in sight" who has been vilified.

Also why are people trying to shame her into NOT being delighted by the fame of her and her babies. What happy beaming mother wouldn't be? If you're into that, it's like the ultimate audience for your baby photo album.

I just saw images of the babies today. They're so tiny it makes me sad.
culturehandy
Multiple birth pregnancies are dangerous for mother and child alike. Anyone who knowinlgy chooses to have 8 plus children without the financial resources? People can afford the fertility treatment, but then they can't afford to cover the costs of subsequently raising the children.

Playing the devil's advocate that I always do, why is it okay for someone to lay down tens of thousands of dollars to get pregnant, then suddenly the family (however you'd life to define family) realizes they can't afford to raise however many children are the result. I ask, does this not seem a shade irresponsible? I don't mean for the tax payor, for the doctor, I mean for the people who went into this knowing what the outcome could possibly be? Most people think very long and hard about say, buying a new house or a new car thinking about the cost of maintaining said house and car or whatever, but when it comes to possibly having 5 or more children in one pregnancy, then there is no thought as to what this could be.

it is my opinion that as usual, people (and I do mean this in general, it is not aimed toward this case in particualr) make decisions without thinking about the long term consequences, then when they getin over their head, instead of stepping up to the plate, they expect someone else to bail them out. The end result is one that is made out of poor decision making. This can be applied to anything from the Big three, to wall street, to this particular story to the Dugars. People are not making responsible, well thought out choices, the almighty dollar speaks.
girltrouble
*vomits*

not to be rude vixen, although i know i am, i don't buy that story. if she was a widow, i'd still be disgusted. she's got what 7 other kids? why the fuck does she need even one more? i loathe the duggans, i detest jon and kate and all of the other INSIPID COOING that happens every time some idiot inlists a doctor into helping them feed their egos and lust for fame via multiple childbirth. i really don't give a fuck if they are married, if they are single if they are part platypus. kitty had a highschool friend who is on baby 6. she's so stupid as to take the pope's word as gold, and like her sister (on baby 8), her uterus is all fucked up, and can't support having another baby, and her husband can't support their family due to an injury. my issue is the irresponsibility of having large families in this day and age. i talk just as much shit about them as i would about nadya. but i think she's worse. if 7 babies aren't enough for you, and you think you need 8 more to feel love? it's time for you to see a head doctor.

and no, i don't think the duggans or any of the other fame grubbing baby makers should be supported by the government or sponsors, because it feeds into this insane baby lust that this country wallows in. why should some idiot and their spawn be treated as conquering heroes for simply hiring a disreputable doctor? but more, if i am irresponsible, why should everyone else bear the brunt of my stupidity? lets say i got drunk and got behind the wheel, and wrap the car around a pole. should everyone who lives on my block have to go to drunk driving classes? of course not. and this is the same thing. if they are going to be irresponsible-- doing something that any sane adult knows has serious, long term repercussions-- it is only fair that they should have to shoulder all of that weight.

and no, them damn babies ain't even half cute. to say otherwise is to give in to that same sort of baby simple mentality that worships nadya's irresponsibility. those children are premature, hooked up to machines, and not able to survive DUE TO HER ACTIONS. she --and all those other families deserve to be vilified.
prophecy_grrl
I *do* find her actions abhorrent - her desperate need to have all these children, while simultaneously not seeming to care about their health or well-being, the obvious media whoring that's going on now. Reluctantly, I will say that her flippant abuse of government aid is distasteful, but really, I don't have a huge problem with that (that's an entirely different discussion, though). Student loans are not give-aways; she's only hurting herself by taking on all that debt and it's incredibly rare to be able to include student loans in bankruptcy claims.

Here's my beef with this whole situation - she has become a scapegoat and a distraction (if this thread is any measure of the national opinion) for our real problems in this country. A lot of what I am hearing comes awfully close to the old welfare queen trope of the Reagan years. This is an extreme case to be sure, but people on public aid did not cause the economic crisis, nor are they exacerbating it. It was caused by deregulating (oh look, Reagan again) Wall St. and the banking industry and the greed of major corporations (kind of like the ones who own all the major media outlets) - all of whom have our elected officials in their pockets. The same elected officials who look out for corporate interests over ours, who've watered down Obama's stimulus bill to the point of being unrecognizable. But I guess that's not as interesting or sensational as Nadya Suleman.

She is courting media attention, but they are still *choosing* to report on it. I think we've seen enough media whoring celebrities self destruct to know that you can simultaneously seek media attention and be victimized by it. We're obviously talking about a very sick woman here.

I think the best course of action at this point is to *ignore it.* Let's get pissed off about the stuff that matters.

ETA: a really good blog post from Bitch today (supporting my arguments) and some really good comments that both refute and support.
zoya
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Feb 12 2009, 10:34 AM) *
if 7 babies aren't enough for you, and you think you need 8 more to feel love? it's time for you to see a head doctor.



That is exactly my unease with this whole thing. I don't think the media is making a martyr of her - I take issue with the fact that they are so ga ga over her that no one has brought up exactly the above. Hell, I'd question a friend who had two kids and told me she was having a third for the same reasons Nadya Suleman says she is having babies. I don't think that trying to fill some sort of hole in your (clearly damaged) emotional health is a very good reason to have a child.
vixen_within
indeed prophecy grrl.

i love how everyone feels personally exploited by nadya suleman. i'm not saying she's beyond reproach, certainly not, but the type and amount of fury is amazing and interesting in itself.

prophecy grrl thanks for the article! Bitch always comes through, they're like a clearing house for cogent analysis. I've been looking for something like this.
roseviolet
I don't like the way words like "we" and "everyone" are being casually tossed around in here and in that post on Bitch. A quick read through this thread proves that there are a number of different opinions & positions on this issue.

I, for one, do not feel personally exploited by this woman. I simply find this story to be highly suspicious. Something about this story stinks to high heaven. And for good reason. This woman could not afford to feed the children she already had, yet she somehow found thousands and thousands of dollars to pay for IVF over and over and over again. How does that happen? What is the real story here?

To me, her marital status is not the issue. The color of her skin is not the issue. I am simply concerned by the huge contradictions in the whole story.
culturehandy
I agree with RV. This could be a family that had many children already, couldn't feed them but could afford IVF and I'd still be asking WTF is going on.
rudderlesschild
For the record, I'm feelin' mighty crotchety today.

Re: "choice". I think many feminists have kind of a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to all things reproductive. Yes, it's a delicate balance we hope to preserve. But I can't get behind any reflexive defense of ANY woman's choice to do ANYTHING she wants with eight (or fourteen) separate human lives - as if our criticism of Suleman or the Duggars or any other one-woman population explosion will lead to the immediate convening of some Government Uterine Affairs Committee. Someone upthread in the Bitch comments asked (paraphrasing wildly here) - if this woman had chosen, instead of IVF, to spend her saved thousands on a yacht or at the blackjack tables in Vegas, would anyone be so concerned with defending her precious "choice"?

If anything, "choices" like these only strengthen the position of those who don't believe women can be trusted with agency over their own bodies.

My own issue with her actions has nothing to do with reproductive rights, Reagan, race, or villagers in Nicaragua. My issue is that she is clearly emotionally unwell and, as such, is not even in any position to raise her first six children without massive parental and government assistance. Throw in the risk to life and limb faced by eight preemies and the questionable ethics of the doctor who agreed to implant six or seven embryos to begin with... for fuck's sake.

Ignore any moral or legal questions, and you're still left with STUPID.

I live in CA. Half the people I know have lost their jobs over the past month. The ones who've managed to keep theirs are facing mandatory furloughs and the scaling-back of benefits.

I am being personally exploited by this woman.
chachaheels
QUOTE
Multiple birth pregnancies are dangerous for mother and child alike. Anyone who knowinlgy chooses to have 8 plus children without the financial resources? People can afford the fertility treatment, but then they can't afford to cover the costs of subsequently raising the children.


QUOTE
I, for one, do not feel personally exploited by this woman. I simply find this story to be highly suspicious. Something about this story stinks to high heaven. And for good reason. This woman could not afford to feed the children she already had, yet she somehow found thousands and thousands of dollars to pay for IVF over and over and over again. How does that happen? What is the real story here?


Doctors who specialize in fertility treatments are the most highly paid doctors in the world. Each treatment is thousands of dollars, and it takes many before people end up pregnant.

So where does a Nadya Suleman get the money to even think about IVF--and end up being the "first" miracle mother of octuplets?

Or, like the Duggans (who made a killing themselves), all living in a trailer with 3 previous babies before creating the "medical miracle" of seven children? Where do they find the means to have access to these treatments? There is no way either group would have been given the money for them via public funds.

Something tells me Nadya Suleman was a marketing fantasy that temporarily backfired, but only where she herself was concerned. After all this dies down, her fertility specialists will be very busy capitalizing on other emotionally desperate wannabe parents, from everywhere in the world, and those patients will bring lots and lots of cash.
Suleman and her children aren't going to have such a happy time of it, now that Oprah won't get her big corporate friends to supply endless diapers and a new home built by Ty Pennington and Sears and new computers from Bill Gates and baby clothes from the Gap and books from Oprah's publishing empire and lots of education funding for the babies from Harvard University or any other university looking for a promotional free-for-all.

And, yes, this is all distraction from the real mess that's out there and won't be fixed anytime soon. Lots of financiers and CEOs with bonuses from bail-out money and war criminals and doctors should be lining the prison cells, it seems to me, but they just keep getting more and more money, less and less media scrutiny.
culturehandy
And, yes, this is all distraction from the real mess that's out there and won't be fixed anytime soon. Lots of financiers and CEOs with bonuses from bail-out money and war criminals and doctors should be lining the prison cells, it seems to me, but they just keep getting more and more money, less and less media scrutiny.

ChaCha, this is what I'm so angry about. This woman chose to do this, but now that it's a lot of work, as with every other industry that's out there, is expecting people to help her event though it was her poor decision making. It's like the big three, for years, they never took the Japanese automakers seriously, even though the Japanese make a more superior vehicle, which lasts longer and is more fuel efficient. Well look waht happens, the big three, because of their failure for long term planning got bailed out by the tax payer.

The common theme here is that people are not stepping up to take responsibility for their own actions. whether is be this situation with Ms. Suleman or her doctor, to wall street or whatever industry. Then, by their poor planning they go begging to the government to say I can't fix my own mistake.
girlygirlgag
FYI, the Duggars own several commercial properties and developments.

They support themselves and always have financially. They depended on volunteers to help with laundry, etc, but never financially. they don't need any outside help anymore, because there are a billion of them.

Not that I like them, but there is a big difference between them and Suleman.
NotNadya
Perhaps a new twist:

QUOTE
A man has threatened to clone himself 14 times and raise his clones on welfare if the mother of octuplets, Nadya Suleman, realizes her dream of fame and fortune through poor family planning decisions.

"I feel like I'm paying for everybody's kids. Women do this sort of crap all the time and I think if a man did it, welfare would wind up being better regulated ", states Gerard "Big Red" White.

His argument's edge is dulled somewhat by the promise that he will rethink his decision to clone himself if provided with beer.




Link: Digg

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