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girltrouble
QUOTE
His argument's edge is dulled somewhat by the promise that he will rethink his decision to clone himself if provided with beer.

his argument is dulled by it's stupidity.

i'm sorry, this idea that somehow if a white male did it, the government would be more harsh is moronic. just a cursory glance at the banking crisis will tell you that. not only did they screw up things world wide but they get a million dollar bonus to boot.
*sniff*
poor little white man.
*sniff*
chachaheels
CH, my point is that I'm not so sure Suleman made this decision completely on her own. I'm saying there were others with vested interests who very likely promoted the idea to her as something that would be mutually beneficial. I think it's quite likely her fertility specialists saw a way of putting themselves "on the map" in the most competitive and lucrative medical field in the world--they'd be the first to help a woman conceive of 8 babies, not just seven, or six, or five (so long ago outdated!). And everyone remembers how Oprah made the septuplet family rich--bet they dangled that carrot in front of her. That's not an outrageous consideration, you know: lots of women with no other financial options sell off their fertility in exchange for large sums of money. There wouldn't be such a market for surrogate mothers or ova, otherwise. Now, if she did make this "trade off", of course the doctors wouldn't be speaking about it (doctor/patient confidentiality) and they'd be above scrutiny. Suleman would be the one who'd be left to come up with explanations to the Gossip industry.

(Correct me if I'm wrong: were the Duggans not the nice Christian family of 5 living in a trailer--2 parents and 3 children in a trailer) who had "miracle" septuplets and were then given hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of "gifts" from big corporations, including "funds" for each of the seven children's extended education? Do I have the wrong family in mind? Because I remember the miracle septuplets--and there is No Way the parents of these babies had money for anything. And also, at the time, Mr. septuplets was unemployed. I can understand how all those "donations" can translate into large financial investments and holdings. It's what I'd do with any large gift of money I'd get, hell).

As for welfare payments--aren't people aware of how little is actually paid to recipients on welfare? Jesus. It's impossible for someone to pay their rent on welfare, let alone buy food, pay for utilities, and feed other mouths. Even if you get extra for each child. Unless you've got someone close to you doing a heck of a lot of shopping and working for you, I don't see how anyone could do it. Personally, I don't care about the $600 bucks or so some person needs from my taxes--it's the billions and trillions of dollars of our taxes used for corporate welfare that really sucks money away from you and me, not the poor. Suleman could buy a few properties of her own with just one banking weasel's bonus money, or just one month of his salary, and she and her 14 kids and parents would live very well for the rest of their days on that one bailout payment we've made from our taxes alone, let alone all the tax money we contribute that's used to subsidize the entire industry. Isn't this obvious?
dj-bizmonkey
I am not exactly sure how I feel about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90209110637.htm

I just don't see how this kind of trial could be legal. It sounds like exploitation to me.
vixen_within
cha cha, the Duggan's are the large xtian family in some cult called "bountiful womb" or something. Maybe you're thinking of the McCaugheys.

dj-biz monkey, testing on African women is par for course, sex workers too (or, super bonus, African sex workers) sad.gif It's not illegal, they do it because they can. They come to international conferences and boast about it.
dj-bizmonkey
i knew that drug companies had been exploiting African populations for a looooong time, i guess i was unclear on who they had recruited who would be willing to participate in such a trial. but if they were using sex workers, that makes more sense, i suppose. still, this seems like reckless endangerment and i am still unclear as to which part of the clinical trial took place in the USA.
jsmith
QUOTE(dj-bizmonkey @ Feb 14 2009, 10:15 AM) *
I am not exactly sure how I feel about this: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90209110637.htm

I just don't see how this kind of trial could be legal. It sounds like exploitation to me.


I don't like the sound of it, either. Their experimental design seems flawed - too many variables.
As far as it being exploitation... I don't know. I imagine they recruited women who were already sexually active, and were in a high-risk group, anyway. If they were taking women and convincing them to purposely engage in un-safe sex, that would definitely be unethical. But a high percentage used condoms (one of those other variables that, if they wanted to be accurate, they should have set as a control. But it would definitely be unethical to tell them NOT to use condoms, just to see if this gel would protect them). I have to chew on this one more to decide what I think of that particular angle..
vixen_within
Another good question is whether the participants are insured for life long side effects.

By the way sex workers are more likely than most women to use condoms and to negotiate safer sex. It's not the sex work that's the problem it's the unsafe drug use and that includes non-sex workering people.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(vixen_within @ Feb 15 2009, 03:55 PM) *
cha cha, the Duggan's are the large xtian family in some cult called "bountiful womb" or something. Maybe you're thinking of the McCaugheys.

dj-biz monkey, testing on African women is par for course, sex workers too (or, super bonus, African sex workers) sad.gif It's not illegal, they do it because they can. They come to international conferences and boast about it.



They're the DUGGARS, not Duggans, so who knows.
auralpoison
The Duggars are involved in the Quiverful movement.

Duggar basics: The first four years of their marriage, she was on the pill. In 1984, they decided to have their first child, after that she went back on the pill. Somehow, the BC failed, she got pregnant & she miscarried. They went to a Christian doctor, read the BC fine print that said she could possibly get pregnant & that she could possibly miscarry. They felt that their selfish actions had essentially caused them to murder their own child. They decided to put things in the hands of God & that He would see fit when they conceived & when they didn't.

And they only gave birth to two sets of twins, the rest of them were single births. Basically Michelle Duggar has been knocked up the old fashioned way for the majority of her adult life.

I can't imagine being pregnant for nine months, let alone nearly twenty years.
vixen_within
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Feb 16 2009, 09:22 AM) *
...
I can't imagine being pregnant for nine months, let alone nearly twenty years.

I know right. To me being with child would be almost like being possessed..by a beautiful magical creature of gawd though of course.
chachaheels
Well, I'm mistaken on the Duggars. I am not mistaken, though, in remembering a family of Christian trailer park dwellers who already had a number of children and then went out and had a miracle birth of record setting numbers of children, which put them and their Fertility Specialist Team on the map and on the Oprah show, where every corporate sponsor ready to cash in on the "good Christian family" vibe "donated" money to their miracle babies (of course, everyone forgot about the already existing babies in the family, who I'm sure have spent their lives as an afterthought ever since).

To me it's telling how well America loved this first family, and now despises this mother of eight for doing exactly the same thing.

But that whole Quiverful movement and the Duggars' view on using BCP is, um, extraordinary.
auralpoison
The McCaugheys (evangelicals) had one daughter before having the septuplets in one swoop (Two of the seven have cerebral palsy.), dunno if they lived in a trailer or not. I do know that they received a 5500sqft home, a mondo van, free diapers for the first few years, free nanny services, etc, etc, etc. The state of Iowa has even graciously offered to pay all seven's college tuition (I'm assuming a state school.) when they reach college age. (What about the first born? Is she gonna pay her own way through DeVry or ITTTech working at Applebees?)

The one good thing I can say for those people is that they've worked to keep their kids out of the limelight unlike the Duggars, John & Kate, etc. I think they do a yearly Q&A with LHJ or something, but that's about it.

I'm sure somebody's mentioned it, but I keep thinking of the episode of the Simpsons where Apu & Manjula have octuplets & the PT Barnum-like character wants to build a theme park around them & display them as freaks. How long is it gonna take before something equally bizarre happens to this new batch? Is some other uber mommy gonna get implanted with ten & we'll forget all about the Suleman (Who knows what last name they'll have, she has like, eight DIFFERENT aliases: Nadya Suleman, Natalie Denise Suleman, Nadya Suleman-Gutierrez, Natalie Suleman-Gutierrez, Nadya Denise Doud, Natalie Denise Doud, Nadya Soloman, Nathalie Soloman.) kids? Will she do something even more drastic to keep the media attention? Is Munchausen's by proxy in these kids' futures? I mean, the lady is on hiatus from getting her MASTERS in PSYCHOLOGY for fuck's sake

ETA cause I forgot why I came in here: Not to change the subject, this is pretty pricelss: Bristol Palin says abstinence only sex education is "unrealistic". Gotta give Bristol this, she's wily!
Persiflager
OT: Sir Roy Meadow was the person who identified munchausen's by proxy, and has since been struck off for wrongly diagnosing it in at least 2 cases of child death (the trials of Angela Cannings and Sally Clark). In each case his mis-leading evidence led to the women originally being found guilty and sent to prison.

There is now considerable doubt as to whether or not the syndrome exists - even if it does, it is likely to be rarer than currently thought.

Back to topic.....
auralpoison
I was being facetious, hence I used the phrase "equally bizarre" & also prefaced it with a comparison to a cartoon television show. I wasn't saying that I felt Munchausen's by proxy was legitimate/illegitimate. It was a comment on the things somebody with a partial psych degree (Or cable tv or the web.) could possibly do to prolong their time in front of the cameras, whether it's a legit disorder or not.
Persiflager
Sorry auralpoison, I didn't mean that as a criticism of your post. I just wanted to flag up the Meadows controversy for everyone's awareness as it made me so cross - he 'diagnosed' one of the women by watching her on TV, for christ's sake.
And, given how difficult it was for them to clear their names, it seems likely that their are others out there who were wrongly imprisoned.

Apologies again if I came across as snarky!

culturehandy
On the episode of The Simpsons, I thought the same thing. And whenever the media does yet another story on multiple births, it makes me think of it.

As for the theme park type thing, that sort of freak show was done with the Dionne Quintuplets.
stargazer
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Feb 17 2009, 08:14 AM) *
Will she do something even more drastic to keep the media attention? Is Munchausen's by proxy in these kid's futures? I mean, the lady is on hiatus from getting her MASTERS in PSYCHOLOGY for fuck's sake


mama and i were talking about her use of her children to get attention for herself already. i think it will be interesting to see how she handles her children growing up and moving out of the house. oh, and about the masters in psychology thing...um, would you want to go to her as a therapist? blink.gif

QUOTE
ETA cause I forgot why i came in here: Not to change the subject, this is pretty pricelss: Bristol Palin says abstinence only sex education is "unrealistic". Gotta give Bristol this, she's wily!


*yawn* stupidity is really genetic, huh. bristol doesn't understand the meaning of sex education in the school system.
auralpoison
QUOTE(Persiflager @ Feb 17 2009, 08:29 AM) *
Sorry auralpoison, I didn't mean that as a criticism of your post. I just wanted to flag up the Meadows controversy for everyone's awareness as it made me so cross - he 'diagnosed' one of the women by watching her on TV, for christ's sake.
And, given how difficult it was for them to clear their names, it seems likely that their are others out there who were wrongly imprisoned.

Apologies again if I came across as snarky!


Oh, NO apologies needed! I just wanted to clarify what I was saying; words on the web cannot emote "tongue in cheek" no matter how hard we try! Is there a "tongue in cheek" emoticon, I wonder?
thirtiesgirl
QUOTE(Persiflager @ Feb 17 2009, 05:46 AM) *
OT: Sir Roy Meadow was the person who identified munchausen's by proxy, and has since been struck off for wrongly diagnosing it in at least 2 cases of child death (the trials of Angela Cannings and Sally Clark). In each case his mis-leading evidence led to the women originally being found guilty and sent to prison.

There is now considerable doubt as to whether or not the syndrome exists - even if it does, it is likely to be rarer than currently thought.

Back to topic.....

It is rare, but it does exist and is real. I've been a victim of it. My mother's symptoms were on the mild side, but from the time I was a small child until I was about 16, she took me to doctor after doctor to have certain things checked out when I had no health problems at all. She even convinced some doctors to operate on me, and when she wasn't happy with one doctor's results, she found another who would pay her more attention and operate further on me. The operations happened from the time I was about 10 years old until I was 16. Prior to the doctors operating on me, she took me to specialist after specialist for physical problems that I didn't even have. It was all a lead-up to the operations, which was, fortunately, as far as she took it. The final operation I had when I was 16 took such an emotional toll on me, I think she finally saw what she was doing and stopped it.

I don't like to talk or write about this a lot because I still have deep anger about it and any time I bring it up, it brings those emotions to the surface. But Munchausen's by proxy is a real thing and no one can tell me otherwise.

I fear for Suleman's well-being, and even moreso, the well-being of her children. I hope her family is a good support system for her and the children, and I hope they provide some balance in the children's lives. I was raised by an imbalanced parent and I know the damage it can do. I speak from experience when I say that if one is already struggling with emotional issues, having a child (or 8!!) will not solve them. I hope she finds the peace she needs...and soon.
auralpoison
That's understandable, Thirties. I certainly wasn't trying to diminish anybody's suffering.

A friend of my mother's had the Munchausen's by proxy. She drug her daughter from doctor to doctor, put her through procedure after procedure. She was textbook. It wasn't until the daughter said something to her long distance father that she got out of the situation. He got full custody of her by threatening criminal proceedings against the mother & after that the girl flourished.
Persiflager
Aha - I think you both know a lot more about this than I do!

Sorry thirties, I feel rotten for doubting (I've sent you a PM). This makes me even more angry at Meadows, as his controversy will make it even harder to get genuine cases to be diagnosed (which I'm assuming wasn't particularly easy to start with).
culturehandy
OT, BUT

(((((((thirties)))))))

thirtiesgirl
Thanks guys, but no apologies needed, really. I didn't take it personally... well, ok, I *did*, but I knew it wasn't about me. Munchausen's by proxy just brings up stuff for me, obviously, and always will. It's an incredibly odd syndrome and extremely hard to diagnose, but it is a real thing and scary for kids to experience. I mean, you think your parents are supposed to be in control. They're the adults. ...But it doesn't always work that way.

And I know I shouldn't pander to my baser interests...but has anyone seen this?
culturehandy
I heard somewhere that Angelina was supposed to be speaking about this issue?? Has anyone heard about this?
girlygirlgag
Apparently the Octo mom and her family have not paid their mortgage since May and are facing foreclosure. They owe upwards of $23,000 in back mortgage.

This is just sad..... Why why why why why did this woman do this to these children? IT'S RIDICULOUS. I feel awful for her parents, too.. They are in their 70's and chasing small children around.

Terrible.

I think they need to put these kids in foster homes until Suleman gets a job and can pay her bills. How are they going to find an apartment to fit 14 kids?
culturehandy
Oh let's not forget that the grandfather is going to work in Iraq to pay. Niiiiiice.

Again, the question which begs to be asked is who in the hell paid for the fertility treatment?

Sounds like she's taking a page from the books of Wall Street and The Big Three.
chachaheels
That's my point, CH: my guess is the "medical team" of fertility specialists made a deal with this woman, and it went like this:

You conceive and bear the world-record-setting live octuplet birth, we'll do the IVF and other treatments for free. We'll keep doing the IVF and fertility treatments until we get eight live births--all for free, because those eight live births will put us at the forefront of our profession as fertility specialists. (I think that "deal" would explain the six previous babies via IVF, too: six has already been done, so has seven. "We need eight to be the best in the world!".)

They must have told her she'd be feted just like the other, septuplet family--with loads of freebies and cash, which she could then use to pay off her own debt-filled situation. Hell, she'd likely get all her kids' needs looked after if some big company would build her a new home for them all.

In return, the "medical team" would be world famous as the team which made the octuplets happen.
The increase in their lucrative business would more than pay for what Suleman would have had to spend to get IVF. And I'm not sure about the state in which they practice, but for most doctors, advertisement is either considered "not done" or illegal--so, literally, they could not buy publicity as good as this, no matter what they spent. Also, someone's making sure Suleman is getting ALL the blame for this--none of these doctors have been called on what would have motivated them to pursue this outcome with a patient who would be such a poor candidate for their services. That makes me wonder in a big way.

Of course, the problem with the deal arose when none of the gracious Oprah sponsors came forward with the bail out money the docs probably told Suleman she'd get as a "sure thing". I actually heard the women on the View one day, saying to themselves that for sure the diaper companies and the clothing companies would step forward to help this woman out.

But they haven't, so off to work Grandfather goes. This one's got bad publicity written all over it for everyone, nobody wants its cooties.

Except those doctors. They're still going to get lots more business, only now it'll be international business too. After all, their "target market" are people who desperately want children, at any cost.
culturehandy
ChaCha, I think you are on to something here.

I don't think anyone thought that this woman's dirty laundry would be aired in the way which is was. That a journalist did some investigating and found some things out.

These doctors exploited this woman, and I am disgusted by the whole thing. Do ethics not call for protecting and causing a person no harm? Well, causing someone mental harm is just the same as physically hurting someone, only emotional scars take much longer to heal.

The more I hear about this, I do feel bad for this woman. This is a case where someone was taken advantage of, only we see it. How many others are taken advantage of that we don't see?
pollystyrene
QUOTE(pollystyrene @ Feb 11 2009, 05:30 AM) *
My guess is that the doctor who did the IVF did it pro-bono for the publicity. blink.gif Ridiculous.


That was my theory, too, a couple of weeks ago. What a train wreck.
jsmith
Chimpanzee Attacks Woman
She's lost her eyes, nose, and JAW. Can you imagine? It took 7 hours of surgery to stabilize her, but she's still critical. I'm amazed this poor gal is still alive, there're some really damn important veins/arteries close to the mandible.
stargazer
i don't understand some people's need to have monkeys or tigers or bears (oh my!) as pets. so, while shocking, is it really surprised at this outcome? blink.gif
Christine Nectarine
i was relieved to hear an actual amazing story about children today, instead of another publicity stunt:
This girl was saved by her friends when her sled ran into a tree. I heard the kids interviewed on the radio. apparently she was buried in 13 feet of snow.
thirtiesgirl
ChaCha, Suleman's fertility clinic, which is in Los Angeles, was on my local news two weeks back because it had just been discovered that the fertility clinic had done in vitro fertilization for a 49 year old woman who was currently not working. The woman is married, but she and her husband are both unemployed and without healthcare at the moment, but the news stories were really calling into question the ethics of the fertility clinic, rather than the woman (although the stories were certainly suggesting that her ethics weren't exactly on solid ground either). Point being, some journalists *are* looking at the fertilization clinic and not just at Suleman in this whole disgusting mess. They're not looking very hard, but at least they recognize that the fertility clinic is not above scrutiny.
auralpoison
What. The. Fuck. TMZ done gone & did it. AND I AM FUCKING LIVID.

Those TMZ.com sons of bitches have posted a pilfered picture of Rihanna post Chris Brown beat down. I do not know what kind of a scumsucking asshole within the LAPD thought that it would be cool to pass the image on to a gossip site (Or any site, for that matter.), but there's a special circle in hell just for them. It's a complete & utter violation of the woman's privacy. It's like he's slapping her around & choking her AGAIN!

I know some people will think it's a good thing, putting a face on domestic violence & letting the people know how bad it is, but, dude. To me it was just plain wrong. If *she* CHOSE to do it on her own, fine, so be it. But for some random asshole within the LAPD to do it & get themselves a nice chunk of change by exploiting an innocent woman . . . I want this person's severed head on a pike!

I was mad enough at the way Brown's father spoke about him slapping Rihanna around, words like "incident" & "situation" trying to diminish things. Chris Brown viloently committed an act of DOMESTIC ABUSE, this wasn't an "unfortunate" accident. It wasn't. Choking a woman until she loses consciousness & then running away is a fucking CRIME.
chachaheels
Thirties, I think that reinforces my point--the clinic gets a very quick look of suspicion (and to me this sounds like it really ought to be investigated by the regulating medical board, but I doubt it will be) but then all discussion about the physicians working there stops, all the discussion about ethics of practice stop, and all discussion of ethics of the whole idea of reproductive rights/economic class (this is ancient) stops.

For me, it's clear there's a "market" for poor women's ova and bodies for use as production facilities--they can be sold into scientific experimentation (which is exactly what this was, if you think about it). Or they can sell their own ova off to someone monied enough and desperate enough to consider having children this way. Patients and patrons all around are the real victims here--the patrons who pay doubly so. We ought to have fertility specialists isolating the cause of the huge problem of infertility in otherwise "healthy" adults, because it's massive--instead they're playing with peoples' bodies using drugs and treatments we know compromise healthy women with few economic choices, and emotionally abuse those patrons who desperately want children. The money isn't in figuring out why so many people of child bearing age simply can't conceive and carry to term; it's in making lots and lots of babies, and for that you need lots of needy women to carry out the experiments.

There isn't a lot doctors can't get away with, and when they close ranks against the public and the press, they close ranks effectively (they're well connected and protected, legally, and not just because they're usually very wealthy white men). Naturally all attention turns to people like Suleman, instead, and all kinds of "spin" are put on the story. The most dangerous ones involve things like the "Welfare Queen" myth, in this case with a double bonus of pinning the label on someone of middle eastern origin. It sort of highlights all the problems with the medical system on the one hand, all the problems with the media on the other: the ethics involved are all wrong for so many reasons but all the wrong gets pinned on one victim.

culturehandy
AP, I just went and checked out TMZ, good heaven's. That's quite the assault she sustained, incident my ass. In other news on TMZ, maybe I should go into celebrity gossip *hauls this peice over there*

I am curious about all your thoughts on this business of ethics, do you think this total lack of ethics on thic clinics part has to do with the fact that health care is privatized in the states? I know things like this can happen anywhere, but when you really aren't answering to the tax payer dollar, as doctors are in Canada, then the almight dollar speaks. Does that make sense?

This also shows how heavily under regulated the fertility industry is, no just in the states, but globally.
jsmith
Speaking of attention-seeking, a Tennessee woman pretended to suffer from breast cancer for 5 YEARS. She's facing some serious prison-time if she's found guilty of the charges against her.
culturehandy
That is some pretty fucked up stuff, but sadly not the first time I've heard it. At least she stepped up and said, I was faking. The next step would be to repay the money which was donated to her and apologize to each and every person she fucked over.
Christine Nectarine
intersting question CH, although in Canada IVF is only covered by provincial heath coverage in certain limited cases. everyone else has to pay.

also, looks like there is already a lot of controversy about the Rhianna photo. TMZ should not have posted that pic. i can't see how it's doing anything other than glorifying someone's pain. while building awareness of domestic violence is vital, violating a woman's privacy only further victimizes her. not that i expected TMZ to demonstrate any greater moral fortitude.
chachaheels
TMZ is just sucky and wrong. I honestly would like to see TMZ go out of business for lack of interest. Or at least suffer massive losses from a successful lawsuit launched by Rihanna.

(on the other hand, all the apologizing for her attacker isn't making my mood lighter. The photo definitely illustrates that she was badly assaulted--it wasn't just an incident. It was a crime).

In Canada almost anyone who opts for IVF pays for it, and here it's largely unregulated as well. All the clinics I know about are privatized and this is definitely the kind of treatment that is only accessible to those with the funds to pay for it. And it is not cheap (I think most couples will also undergo other fertility "treatments" before starting IVF--it's not at all unusual for people to spend about $50K to get to IVF, depending on the approaches taken).

What we do have in Canada are restrictions on paying for reproductive material--you can't be paid, for example, for donating sperm to a sperm bank, and you can't be paid for selling your ova to fertility clinics. If you donate and expect payment, you'll have to do that in the US (which is what a lot of people who have few options do). I think this goes a long way in keeping the very poor women out there from being exploited by fertility medicine. And it may be a reason where asking a woman to bear multiple child births for publicity and the payoff it might bring doesn't seem like a difficult idea for people to swallow, since ova are bought and sold all the time in these clinics.

Incidentally, many European countries fund IVF for their citizens--but only for the first child. That way, doctors are encouraged to fertilize with only one fertilized egg at a time, and not with several as was done in the Suleman case. These governments understand that there is a crisis in fertility rates, and that couples will enter into this lucrative area of medicine where they may be easily exploited--paying for only one IVF creates a restriction on the doctors, who will only be paid for one child and no more by the state. If the parents want more, they can then pay for their own IVF treatment, which is again limited to using one fertlized egg at a time.

girlygirlgag
QUOTE(jsmith @ Feb 20 2009, 02:01 AM) *
Chimpanzee Attacks Woman
She's lost her eyes, nose, and JAW. Can you imagine? It took 7 hours of surgery to stabilize her, but she's still critical. I'm amazed this poor gal is still alive, there're some really damn important veins/arteries close to the mandible.



You know, nothing angers me more than people who are not zoologists, keeping wild animals as pets. I feel badly for the woman who owned this Chimp, because I know she never thought in a million years that this would ever happen.... But it is so ridiculously irresponsible to own a CHIMPANZEE, and feed it wine and xanax...

Itr's not a fucking human, for fucks sake.
candycane_girl
There was an opinion piece in the newspaper about the chimp story. Basically the writer argued that it's completely unfair for people to keep chimps and treat them like humans. We might share 98 percent of our DNA but they are still not human!
culturehandy
I don't get why people are always so surprised when animals attack, DUH they are animals, they are still wild, it's not a domesticated animal. Drives me bonkers. Wild animals will always be wild. My dog still goes instinctual and chases small rodents and rabbits at the park. If dogs do this, imagine what a wild animal will do people!

Head, meet desk.
auralpoison
I remember a Chris Rock joke about Siegfried & Roy (Who are doing their "farewell" performance on the 28th, BTW.) that was something like, "That tiger didn't go crazy. That tiger went TIGER!"

I watched Cat Dancers a couple months ago & while I already knew that exotic pets & polyamory weren't for me, it really drove it home.
stargazer
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Feb 24 2009, 10:20 AM) *
I remember a Chris Rock joke about Siegfried & Roy (Who are doing their "farewell" performance on the 28th, BTW.) that was something like, "That tiger didn't go crazy. That tiger went TIGER!"

I watched Cat Dancers a couple months ago & while I already knew that exotic pets & polyamory weren't for me, it really drove it home.



LOL laugh.gif i love chris rock. i remember that show too well. cat dancers?!? that show was BI-ZZARE! dude, anytime a tiger throws your wife up in the air likes it's a cat toy. ya. you gots to go.
chachaheels
I remember being shocked the first time a research assistant talked about how dangerous chimps who are "being studied" can be. After all, they're being kept in captivity by animals they're terrified of, and those animals are constantly poking at them or pestering them in some form they'd never have to contend with in their unmolested existences. Chimps will fight their imprisoners to the death if they have to, especially if they're terrified by what's happening to them.

We'd all do the same thing, in the same situation--try to escape any way possible, including fighting your perceived enemy. So now I don't know why this would surprise anyone at all anymore.

(but a lot of people don't think animals are capable of feeling emotions in the way we do, either).
stargazer
Government funded research campaign to extol benefits of marriage

I was really annoyed reading this article. I felt it really discriminated against same sex couples, people who choose to be single, and partners who choose to co habitate. i don't want my taxes going towards this type of campaign.
culturehandy
CaCha to expand on your point about researched animals. It's very true, if you look at the studies of Jane Goodall and Diane Fosey, the animals accepted these women into their group, they weren't threatened. So naturally, whenever an animal is threatened (and I'm including humans in here, because we're terrible animals) they are going to what it takes to protect themselves.

Star, so I guess the benefits are marriage are completely wiped out when couples get divorced. Studies have shown that marriage increases the life span of men, but what's the difference between living with someone and living common law? Don't couples still get the same benefit? And encourage 18 year old the benefits of marriage?? aren't we alrady forcing youth to grow up faster than they need to?? Bah.
chachaheels
My internet connection is last-century slow, so I just read the headline...but yeah, Crazy Cat Lady, that girl should have kept every penny she earned.

So now everyone's victimized her, including her teacher and authorities.
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