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tallgirl
She knows academically that it was not her fault, and yet can't accept it into her being. She feels like she needs to apologize to him because she feels like she pushed him to the point where he misunderstood what she wanted, and then she failed to say the magic word "stop." I know it's a mess - and she does as well - but that doesn't stop her from laying the blame at her own feet.
pepper
~~"His reply was that this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." "~~

that there just gave me chills. *shiver*

i want to say that totally ignoring everything she was expressing in every way But verbally was heinous... but i can't. they just don't have the experience to have known what the Fuck they were doing in my opinion. he may very well have been trying to give her what he thought she really wanted. argh, i really advocate for researching something so serious before just diving in but it seems that making a mistake is how a LOT of people figure out that there's a right and a wrong way to play.

the thing is though, after it happened and she let him know that it was wrong wrong wrong for her his first reaction was "that's what you get." and that still doesn't feel right to me. and now she's apologizing to him? no. i don't think so.

what a mess.
girltrouble
i disagree. i don't think experience-- some sort of bdsm resume, or having done research-- has much to do with it. i think we kind of got of on a bdsm tangent, going by bdsm logic, they have failed terribly, but i think considering they were coming at this from a place of ignorance about bdsm basics, that is how we need to look at it.

from that POV;

how much do you have to know to know not to hurt someone you care about?

how much training do you have to have to know that your wife is crying isn't a good thing?

my answer?
none.

you don't have to know anything about bdsm to know what happened: her trust was violated.

ananke
Here's the thing for me: I've done BDSM, I've done it gone bad bad bad bad. I've been hurt, I've been pleasured, I've done that. None of that is part of my life now, even though the MU and I get into some rough stuff, some bondage and some kinky things. So we don't have safewords, because 'no', 'stop' and 'ow' are the safewords. This isn't a scene, this isn't 'play' - this is us doing what we like, it just includes some of the stuff BDSM lifestylers do. So while GT likes the crying and saying no with her daddy, I don't cry or say no, even if we were doing the same acts (unlikely, but possible...).

Stacey and Bob weren't doing BDSM, they were doing rough sex. Bob just decided it was a scene where 'no' and crying meant something different to any other time they have sex.

But I'm with phobia - if he can't understand those most basic of signals, I sure as fuck would noy 'play' with him. Hell I'd reconsider leaving with him.
greenbean
(deleted)
I realized I'm not ready to use myself as an example in this discussion.
_octinoxate
[delurking]

I've been following this conversation and I find myself questioning the wisdom of naming this act. Of course, on the one hand I totally understand it's highly significant that by naming something, you make sense of it, you define its reality, its nature... and on the other hand, that's actually exactly why i'm very hesitant to give any name to this situation at all. in my mind, this is both Rape and Not-Rape. or, it's neither Rape nor Not-Rape. The situation seems way too complex, too messy, too multifaceted, too uncertain to label with one concept OR the other. it seems to me that if i were stacy, i would want to be *less* concerned with exactly what to call the violent act that had been committed against me, and *more* concerned with the resultant trust issues, how i saw my husband, how he saw me, my intent (in all its complexity/contradiction), his intent (in all its complexity/contradiction), and so on. it feels like labeling the event definitely as rape--or rejecting that construct definitely--would cramp my ability to process the event in a way that felt full and natural to me personally.

ok, relurking again. but before i do so, i want to thank y'all for this very insightful and respectful conversation about an important matter.
phobia
QUOTE
i disagree. i don't think experience-- some sort of bdsm resume, or having done research-- has much to do with it. i think we kind of got of on a bdsm tangent, going by bdsm logic, they have failed terribly, but i think considering they were coming at this from a place of ignorance about bdsm basics, that is how we need to look at it.

from that POV;

how much do you have to know to know not to hurt someone you care about?

how much training do you have to have to know that your wife is crying isn't a good thing?

my answer?
none.

you don't have to know anything about bdsm to know what happened: her trust was violated.


Yes, completely. The BDSM thing is a red herring.

"this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." "

Seriously? Stacy needs to get the fuck out of there. If he really thinks that having a safeword means he can just do whatever the fuck he wants to her because she didn't SAY the safeword, he is not only uncommonly dense, but extremely unsafe and should NOT BE TRUSTED EVER EVER AGAIN. You don't have to be some BDSM guru to understand that a safeword is not consent to everything your evil little brain can come up with. That's fucking common sense. I can't even explain how wrong this is. I really think Stacy needs to leave Bob, get some counseling alone, and then maybe decide if this is a relationship worth saving. It sounds like she's not in a mental place where she can process this, especially if SHE'S apologizing to HIM for HIM RAPING HER. Not to mention -- they've been married for YEARS, they must have known each other for a while before that, so I just can't accept that good ol' Bob really thought everything was OK. He knew what he was doing, he knew it wasn't ok. Anything else he says is just excuses, rough sex or not.

Seriously, go read that thread at Pandagon I linked to. Ugh.

And ok, I agree that arguing over whether it should be labeled "rape" isn't neccesarily useful, but I'm of the opinion that we (as in society) need to be much more willing to call a spade a spade. It wasn't so long ago that marital rape wasn't even considered "real," so our definitions can certainly be changed and molded as our understanding of things change. It's a good discussion to have, but I do get uneasy when people start arguing "oh it's not really rape." That just sends up red flags for me.

PS -- sorry if I'm coming across as really sweary and angry. I am angry. It's very frustrating to me to see BDSM dragged into this, as though somehow kinky people are more likely to not understand consent, or kink makes consent somehow ambiguous. It does not. In fact, in normal circumstances, power dynamic sex usually means MORE discussion, MORE care taken to ensure everyone's ok, MORE attention by the "top." Seeing someone use rough sex as an excuse to justify what happened here makes me sick.
tallgirl
Wanted to take a moment to quickly reassure Octinoxate - and anybody else who might have a similar concern - that naming what happened is far from Stacy's top priority. She is far more concerned with healing herself and her relationship and deciding what the next steps are for her and Bob. Trying to name it was an initial thought for her - part of her way of dealing - but as the discussion has continued and evolved here, she has moved on to healing in the more important ways.

That is not to say that this kind of conversation is not relevant - I personally think it is. It's just to reassure those with concerns that she's not stuck on this one point, but is moving forward.
roseviolet
Thank you, TallGirl, for the additional information.

That being said, I want to remind everyone that we are hearing only a fragmented version of this story through an alternate source. We have not heard anything directly from Stacy or Bob, which is one of the many reasons why I am hesitant to label this situation. I'm not saying that TallGirl is an unreliable source, but as a 2nd party to the event, she cannot clarify a lot of very important points about this situation.

I also wanted to say many thanks to Greenbean & Octinoxate for delurking. I agree with you that this is a very complex situation. I understand why some of the Busties want to simplify the situation & affix a label to it, but it is not that easy. It's an extremely complicated situation, not only because of the BDSM element, but because of the history of Stacy & Bob's relationship ... a history that is totally unknown to all of us.

I agree that if Bob said those things and said them in the tone that many of you are hearing and if he has refused to apologize, then yes, he's a manipulative, insensitive asshole. And I bet that assholishness has been seen in other ways before. However, his words can be heard a different way. Maybe he was genuinely confused about the BDSM portion of this. As pointed out earlier, they agreed upon a safe word. So maybe he honestly had the impression that BDSM means you can do whatever the hell you want until someone says the safe word. Maybe he honestly and innocently thought that part of the appeal of BDSM for some people is that you get to work out some of your anger on one another. Is that fucked up and dangerous? Hell yes! But nevertheless, a lot of people make these false assumptions. Bob could be one of those people.

I'm glad to hear that Stacey is trying to work through this, but TallGirl, I hope you'll let her know that if she wants to heal her relationship with Bob, he must be involved in this process. And he needs to be willing to apologize as much or more than she has. I think there are some couples out there who have the ability to work through something like this together, but most couples probably need some professional help, too. I know that talking through this together will be extremely difficult at times, but it is the only way. If either of them is unwilling to do that, then I don't know how their relationship can survive. Or at least, I don't see how they can have a stong, healthy relationship again.
phobia
QUOTE
It's an extremely complicated situation, not only because of the BDSM element,


See, I just completely disagree with this. The BDSM element is nearly completely irrelevant. I reject the notion that being into kinky sex means you disregard your partner, or that consent is ambiguous. Anyone who thinks that a couple being into kinky or rough sex means that there is no way to tell whether someone was violated or abused is mistaken. Period. If there was no rough sex aspect to this, the situation would have been clear cut -- Bob raped his wife. But since we hear that she likes it rough and that they had some vague notion of a safeword, that somehow the situation is different. I just don't think it is.

But you're right -- we don't know whether Bob is otherwise a manipulative fuck, although his post-event comments don't make me feel too good about him whatever the case.

Maybe someone with a background in DV and/or rape counseling can add more light to this issue. I just think it's much more simple than people are making it out to be, and I might be wrong, but when you re-write the events without any reference to "rough sex," it is extremely clear-cut.
phobia
QUOTE
So maybe he honestly had the impression that BDSM means you can do whatever the hell you want until someone says the safe word. Maybe he honestly and innocently thought that part of the appeal of BDSM for some people is that you get to work out some of your anger on one another. Is that fucked up and dangerous? Hell yes! But nevertheless, a lot of people make these false assumptions. Bob could be one of those people.


I still don't understand how that excuses his behavior, either. His misconceptions should have become moot when it became evident that Stacy was in REAL distress. If he can't tell that she's in REAL distress after "several years" of marraige, the problem is not the safeword or the rough sex. If he didn't CARE that she was in real distress, then Stacy needs to get out of the relationship before something worse happens.
crinoline
I'm sorry, I don't have much to add to the topic. I DO believe that the moment consent is withdrawn, it is no longer sex and becomes pure violence. I do NOT believe that there is ANY circumstance in which a woman "deserves it" ever. (Does anyone remember that case with the cop assaulting the woman who worked as a stripper?) I can see how Bob would get defensive after the incident, but there is no excuse for using fear to control "loved ones", and his comments imply that he intends to do just that.

I came in here to post that I have never heard of MRAs, but they most unfortunately seem to share many of the same views as my willfully ignorant (female!) friend and her boy. I am absolutely horrified that that group exists.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 10:58 AM) *
his post-event comments don't make me feel too good about him whatever the case.


*delurking*

phobia - you just want this to be bob raped his wife so badly. i don't understand that. many of you are putting so much focus on what bob said after the incident. i mean you are in a LTR. hasn't your man ever done anything stupid and then said something stupid afterwards? i mean i think this is common with men. they fuck up and then instead of just apologizing they say something stupid. usually it's because they feel guilty and they are ashamed of themselves. hasn't your man ever done this? does your man get on his knees and apologize every time he does something wrong? if he does then you are lucky.

I think bob fucked up and yes he needs to apologize and they need to go talk to someone. i mean jesus christ if stacy feels like she was raped then she needs to leave but i don't get that vibe from what tallgirl is saying. i think she is hurt and needs help. you want a marriage to end because of one very terrible experience. most married couples encounter a big problem like in a relationship and they try to work through it because they love one another.

i don't consider "rough sex" bdsm. IMO corset play, water play, knife play, breath play, suspensions, etc, that is BDSM. that is when a safeword is really needed. that is when things can go very wrong and someone can get really hurt. they just like rough sex. like mr. pug and i. we just like it rough. we don't do anything too intense. i think this is why a safeword isn't as important in our case as is in what gt and you do. so i agree with you that this isn't really about bdsm. but...it is about sex, rough sex to be exact. she thought she liked it rough. she challenged him. they had a stupid safeword. when he reacted to what he thought she wanted it went wrong.

she didn't use her safeword. another thing that just doesn't make sense to me is this who "freezing up" and forgetting your safeword. don't flip out just listen to what i'm saying. it's not like she froze and couldn't speak, scream or cry and just laid there waiting for it to be over. i believe this can happen in a rape situation. however, she was saying no and crying but SHE DIDN'T SAY STOP which is the safeword. So you're telling me that she remembered all the other words but forgot STOP. she could talk and cry but couldn't say STOP. is this what your saying. i mean if you are being "raped" as you are so strongly, forcing it in your posts and you are crying and saying NO then why couldn't you say STOP as well. stop would have come out just as freely as no. I mean did the almighty powers that be just pluck the word stop out of her full vocabulary? come on now.

i agree that rape is wrong and fucking your wife in anger is wrong as well but so is challenging your man like that. she talked shit to him. she belittled him. does no one take into account how she made bob fucking feel? it's fine for her to be upset and hurt but for him he just has to fucking take being talked to like that because he's the supposed "rapist". give me a break.

they BOTH fucked up. THEY BOTH FUCKED UP! they need to go talk to someone, not end their marriage and her press charges. i'm sure he feels like shit and is just ashamed of himself and confused with what happened JUST LIKE SHE IS. he needs to just say he's sorry. In fact, i think they both need to apologize to each other without any BUTS and go get some help while definantly putting the "rough sex" on hold for a long time.

the fact that he said he didn't want to innitiate rough sex anymore says a lot as well. he hurt her and he knows it. he can't read her because she is unclear about what she wants when she says she wants "rough sex". if she doesn't know what she wants or can handle then how the hell is he supposed to know. this is why some of us are stressing the do your research first and talk about it aspect. i was very clear to mr. pug about what i wanted. we talked about it so that he wasn't confused when we did start to play. i'm sure you and your man have done the same thing. communication. whether it's bdsm, regular sex, rough sex. i mean shit if you had a bad experience with doggie style you have to tell your partner before you have sex so he doesn't try to do it and then you get freaked out and cry rape aftewards.

sorry for the rant but i just don't believe that "bob raped his wife" nor do i believe that he should have fucked his wife in anger nor do i think that she should have belittled him the way she did, nor do i believe that she needs to leave him.

*relurking*
phobia
Pugs, sex with no consent is rape. That is the commonly accepted definition.

I'm glad you've never been assaulted and can't speak or move or come out with the right words to stop your attacker. You need to stop blaming Stacy for this happening, though. The situation is EXTREMELY clear-cut. Seriously, listen to me. Go back and remove any mention of "rough sex" from the initial discussion, and it all becomes very obvious. I'm not reading into this to make Bob seem like a jerk or a rapist. He foced his wife to have sex with him when she clearly, obviously, crying begging peading pushing didn't want him to. HOW IS THIS SO HARD TO FATHOM YOU GUYS?!

QUOTE
when he reacted to what he thought she wanted it went wrong.


BUT HE DIDN'T STOP. He used her lack of saying the safeword as an excuse to do whatever he wanted. No normal, considerate partner would do such a thing, EVEN IF SHE DIDN'T SAY THE SAFEWORD. As GT has mentioned, you don't need a fucking degree in bondage to know if and when your partner is no longer having a good time. AND HE DIDN'T STOP.

I really think we could use the input of people who are more knowledgable (and less angry) about issues of domestic violence and rape.


Like, maybe those people can tell me what universe it is where forcing sex on your partner suddenly becomes ambiguous when she likes it rough, and in what universe that isn't victim-blaming.

I really really really can't get over the fact that some people here really think that liking kinky, rough sex somehow means consent is difficult to ascertain or in any way ambiguous, and that moreover Bob should be completely 100% let off the fucking hook for forcing sex on his wife because she had it coming because she liked rough sex and taunted him. Seriously. I thought this was a feminist message board.
roseviolet
No one is saying that Bob should be 100% let off the hook. No one is saying he is totally innocent. We're saying that it is complicated.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 03:01 PM) *
I still don't understand how that excuses his behavior, either. His misconceptions should have become moot when it became evident that Stacy was in REAL distress. If he can't tell that she's in REAL distress after "several years" of marraige, the problem is not the safeword or the rough sex. If he didn't CARE that she was in real distress, then Stacy needs to get out of the relationship before something worse happens.



There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. Though they have been thru several years of marriage, they have not been thru several years of BDSM, and this is a first BDSM relationship for him. This is a one time incident in a marriage. I highly doubt that Bob is into RAPING his wife.

My take is that this lifestyle was initiated pre-maturely and that both parties have responsibility in what happened. Bob really needs to apologize. What he did was wrong. Was it rape? I don't know, only Stacey can say. Were the lines of appropriateness muddled? ABSOLUTELY. I understand the need for Stacey to label the act, but is a label really going to change what happened and help her move forward?

LoveMyPugs
QUOTE
I'm glad you've never been assaulted and can't speak or move or come out with the right words to stop your attacker.


So..everyone who has not been attacked, assaulted, raped...you must leave this conversation because you just don't understand and therefore won't understand that this was RAPE!

QUOTE
Go back and remove any mention of "rough sex" from the initial discussion, and it all becomes very obvious.


But you can't just take out the "rough sex" aspect. That is part of the situation. That is one of the aspects that made it go wrong. You can't take flour out of the recipe and still call the finished product bread. Nothing like this ever happened before when they had vanilla sex. When the rough aspect was brought in that is when something bad happened.

Oh yes, and I'm NOT blaming STACY!!!

You make it sound like two people are having sex and as soon as one says stop (in this case "no") that that is rape. I say no to my partner all the time and he continues because I know that's what I like and that's what I asked him for and that is what he agreed to. If I'm not liking it I say my safeword, but since I've never been raped I don't know what I'm talking about apparently.

QUOTE
As GT has mentioned, you don't need a fucking degree in bondage to know if and when your partner is no longer having a good time. AND HE DIDN'T STOP.


This you are right about. He was angry. She pissed him off. I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU HERE! and he was wrong to begin fucking her out of anger. However, I truely believe that he thought this was what she was desiring. There are women who desire rape scenes. I think he thought she was challenging him and that she wanted to be taken in this manor. he misjudged. But you think this is cause for rape charges? I love my man and if this were him and I, rape would not even cross my mind. BUT AGAIN, i've never been raped and therefore have no idea what i'm talking about.

QUOTE
I really think we could use the input of people who are more knowledgable (and less angry) about issues of domestic violence and rape.


Clearly, then you should also leave the conversation. I should leave because I have no knowledge about domestic violence and rape and you should leave because you are clearly angry about something you don't even have all the facts about. You weren't there. You don't even know either of them. even if stacy herself came on here and told you she loved her husband and forgave him and bob came on here and apolgized to her and you and everyone else who has been raped he'd still be a fucking rapist and should be punished to the furthest extent of the law.

QUOTE
Like, maybe those people can tell me what universe it is where forcing sex on your partner suddenly becomes ambiguous when she likes it rough, and in what universe that isn't victim-blaming.


Who the fuck is blaming stacy? i'm not. i'm not blaming anyone. it's just a fucked up situation that went wrong and they should get help. you just want to blame bob.

QUOTE
I thought this was a feminist message board.


Oh brother dry.gif
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 12:19 PM) *
There is a difference between an excuse and an explanation. Though they have been thru several years of marriage, they have not been thru several years of BDSM, and this is a first BDSM relationship for him. This is a one time incident in a marriage. I highly doubt that Bob is into RAPING his wife.

My take is that this lifestyle was initiated pre-maturely and that both parties have responsibility in what happened. Bob really needs to apologize. What he did was wrong. Was it rape? I don't know, only Stacey can say. Were the lines of appropriateness muddled? ABSOLUTELY. I understand the need for Stacey to label the act, but is a label really going to change what happened and help her move forward?


GGG - this is all that i am saying. you summed it up nicely. thank you!
girlygirlgag
Phobia, as a rape survivor and a feminist, I find it incredibly insulting and hurtful for you dismiss anyone who is disagreeing with you as pro-rape, ignorant, or not feminist.

Shame on you.
culturehandy
Okay, after much reading and thinking about this,

Rough play is a part of SM play. It doesn't have to be, but it is generally accepted that pain is a part of SM play, it isn't for everyone, but for some it is. We can call this rough sex, SM play or whatever. It was a situation gone bad. Very very bad.

If this was in fact a scene and Bob was the top and Stacy the bottom, a good top reads the bottom and sees what they want or don't want.

The fact that Stacy was crying and didn't say a code word and was clearly in distress should have been a big clue to Bob that something was wrong. If she was taunting him because she was mad, he shouldn't have had sex with her. If she was taunting him because it was a part of play, but he was unsure, Bob should not have continued. I agree, that he should have known, after several years of marriage, that crying during sex equals bad. What person doesn't know this? I don't care if this was during SM paly or not, if it was during SM play, the top should stop and see if the bottom is okay. So, in a case like this, regardless of what you want to call this, Bob should have stopped.

As for getting what they deserve, in a case like this, it's creepy. If you are "playing" and things are consensual, that's different.

I think the reason Stacy is aplogizing, which she absolutely should not have to do, is she is punishing herself. This clearly shows that she has been psychologically damaged by this episode. I truly think that she is apologizing because she feels that if she had simply said something to stop things, and had not taunted him, she feels things would not have transpired as they did. She has constant what if's runnig through her mind. what if I had said stop, what if I had not taunted him, the what ifs are numerous. Stacy should not have to aplogize that she wanted things to stop, no one should be punished for that. If it is in play a good top would understand, but the more I think about this, the more I think that this is not play at all. It may have started out as play, but got way out of control.

For some crying is part of the game. Crying is not part of my SM play, to each their own regarding Sm play. If this was SM play and Stacy had never cried before, Bob (or any top for that matter) should have stopped. If anything occurs outside the realms of pre-determined consent and discussion, the scene must stop. Let's say for example that this was SM play, and Stacy and Bob had decided that this was a mock rape scene (I'm just saying for argument sake), and crying was not part of the scene or was not discussed, Bob should still have stopped, but he didn't. If this wasn't SM play (which, as I said, I don't think it ended up as), crying is never part of a healthy sexual experience. At least not during the act (crying afterwards...if this is something other than tears cause by a good, healthy emotion)..

I agree the moment consent is withdrawn it equals rape, in a case like this, from what I gather, and I am not taking Bob's side here (I think that he continued while his wife was in distress is disgusting) he would say "well, she didn't say anything, therefore consent was not withdrawn". Of course I could be wrong, and I do hope that I am. Rape is rape, whether you are married or not.

SM play or not, call it what you like about the "scene", obvious trauma and distress were visible, and were not supposed to happen in the situation (whether play or not), and that in itself, regardless of situation equated to consent being withdrawn, although not verbally, it was still withdrawn. And what do we call it when consent is withdrawn, or not given for that matter? It's rape.

This couple must must MUST go and speak to someone. If Stacy chooses to stay with Bob or not. If they decide to stay together then they must go to counselling individually and together. This will help them deal with issues they have as a couple and issues that have arisen because of this situation. If They decide to break up, they must also seek counselling, because neither of them will be able to carry on a healthy relationship (with or without SM play, or kink, rough sex, whatever you want to call it) without dealing with this epsiode which has no doubt had an impact on who they are as individuals. Stacy may have trouble being intimat with Bob or any other man for that matter, Bob the same. I wouldn't be surprised if any sort of sexual disfunction comes out of this, brought on by the psychological trauma of this event.
phobia
QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 12:28 PM) *
Phobia, as a rape survivor and a feminist, I find it incredibly insulting and hurtful for you dismiss anyone who is disagreeing with you as pro-rape, ignorant, or not feminist.

Shame on you.


Oh, honestly. Everyone chill for a minute, ok? Let's all take a deep breath. This thread is causing tempers to flare for some reason, and the discussion is getting a little off track.

~breathe....~

Ok.
If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I never called anyone any names. I tried to be careful to state things as my opinion, as how they sounded to me. If that didn't come across, I guess I'll have to try harder in the meantime, but it might be equally possible that people are angrily jumping to conclusions. My points were that some things that are being said are sending up red flags for me -- stuff that sounds an awful lot like "it's not really rape if [she likes it rough, she was drunk, she's your wife, she's a slut, she's a prostitute, etc.]," or "she never said [no, stop, I don't want to, her safeword] so it may not have really been rape." You hear a lot of this kind of thing from people who want to excuse rapists, and I really just wanted to point that out so that maybe people could think about what they were saying and how it sounded.

Because to me, it sounds an awful lot like people are scrambling to excuse Bob's behavior. And I don't see why.

Because my main point, the one I keep coming back to, is that the rough sex, as I've said, is a red herring, and I feel that people are using to muddy what is essentially a very simple situation. Bob forced his wife to have sex with him, and continued to do so after it was clear that she didn't want to. Rough sex does not muddy the waters sufficiently to make this ok. It is not complex. It is not ambiguous. There is not a justification for what happened. (Girly, you're right, there may be ~explanations,~ which aren't the same as ~excuses~.)

It doesn't take a lot of experience with kink or rough sex to stop and check and make sure you aren't hurting your partner.

I'm not trying to make Stacy "label" what happened to her, and I have no dog in the fight to make Bob into a rapist. Really and truly. My big, sort of "meta" concern, is that I want to eradicate this idea that people doing rough or kinky sex are somehow in a place where consent can be muddled or ambiguous, that kinky sex is somehow inherently more likely to lead to rape or other abuses of power. That is just not the case*, and that's why I keep insisting that the kink parts of the story are irrelevant. I also don't like seeing rough or kinky sex used to justify abuse, which I don't think anyone here is doing, but I want to make that clear as well.

Also, Culturehandy -- I really liked your post, and I totally agree with it.




*An argument can be made that this is not the case ~when done responsibly,~ and that the problem here is a lack of responsiblity. But I think that my answer to that is that even beginners, if they're decent people, have the common sense to check in occasionally, and if something seems to be going wrong, most decent people would ask if everything is ok.
pepper
all these rules ans "should haves" and "a good top does such and such..."
this is what i mean by experience and reading up.
when my partner and i first started to play he left bruises on me that, while i enjoyed them, i wasn't sure were ok for my body, if i had been actually hurt. when i talked to a more experienced friend she cussed me out and sent me home with a list of books to read. i have to say, without them we may have ventured into dangerous territory without meaning too. it's easy to make a mistake when you're dealing with something so unusual. i don't think a degree is neccessary but some degree of knowledge certainly is.
they both fucked up but so long as they are both willing to take responsibility for that and work together to fix it and move on they should be fine.
right now it smarts and they are both in a muddle about it. hello, sex life in the blender, how disconcerting. but not such a trauma after all. i think they can work through it. sounds like they love each other, communicate, have a willingness to grow together.
i agree with what culturehandy has to say about stacy's guilt, that it indicates her trauma.

i can't dedicate the kind of time to this that i want to be able to right now, baby wants me. just wanted to speak for a second though... carry on.
girlygirlgag
pepper, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I don't think what Bob did was right. I can't label it, I am not Stacey. If she labeled it rape, I would support her decision. If she didn't, I would support it. BUT, I do not think she is without blame in this situation.

I think this couple embarked on a lifestyle and journey that neither of them were prepared for in so many ways. It also seems to me, (please do not take this as "She asked for it") that Stacey has maybe made a hasty decision as to why she WANTS to participate in a lifestyle like this. Is there anything in Stacey's past that she is not confronting and could this be vary bad in the long run with this lifestyle?I believe the same about Bob. I don't think he can distinguish his feelings of anger from those of violent eroticism. That will not work in DD. I really think that a lot of research, communication, and self exploration needs to be done before embarking on DD. You really need to have an "clean bill of health" psychologically when it comes to your sexuality. If there is a past trauma/violent act/rape in your life, I really think you need to really examine why you are interested in DD.



No matter how you slice it, DD is a combo of sex and violence. Practicing by novices can really turn out very ugly. Like it has here.


and phobia, I really don't know how "I thought this was a feminist messageboard" is not supposed to be taken as an insult?
phobia
QUOTE
and phobia, I really don't know how "I thought this was a feminist messageboard" is not supposed to be taken as an insult?


Umm...prolly cause it wasn't directed at anyone in particular but more the general tone in this thread. Also, I didn't say "GirlyGirlGag, I think you are a pro-rape ignoramus who is no feminist." So get down off your high horse and please stop reading into my posts. Kthxbye.
anoushh
Well, I do have experience working with survivors of rape and sexual abuse and as most rape is not of the "stranger in the bushes" variety, this is an incredibly common kind of experience.

I don't have the time I'd like to elaborate in any detail, but phobia and culturehandy have pretty much stated my responses.

In my experience getting the victims of the abuse to stop blaming themselves, making excuses, or some such was hard work and took a long time. Inevitably this was in large part because those who had abused them made sure of it.

There's also a temptation to blame yourself for terrible things because in some unconcious way part of you then can say to yourself that you can prevent a terrible thing from happening in the future. Ie, if it was because of something you did you can not do it the next time and you'll be safe.

This is a fallacy of course, but it's one of the ways the psyche tries to protect itself from painful experiences.

Pugs, I think you are having a hard time separating your own experiences from other peoples. It just feels to me like you are reacting very defensively to anything that might call into question your own choices, though if you are comfortable with them you don't need to get defensive about them. I don't feel at all comfortable with the "I deserved to be punished" kind of talk.

I also don't feel comfortable with any kind of language that implies "well, rape is so complicated and it's so tough for the poor guy we don't have to really hold him fully accountable." A lot of people commit sexual abuse and get away with it using this kind of muddied thinking and putting it onto their victims. Remember, if most rapes are the "dragging in the bushes" kind, neither are most rapists the guy in the bushes.

It doesn't matter to me if it's called rape, abuse, or exactly what, as long as it's named something that acknowledges the lack of trust, the huge anger, and the betrayal that are clearly involved in this marriage.

I'm not into BDSM myself--in part b/c my partner is very averse due to some past traumatic experiences, but I have very close friends who are and I"m not at all unfamiliar with the scene. I think, like others, that BDSM is a red herring in this case. There are plenty of people who have very hardcore BDSM relationships out there, and in general it's almost always a case of the more someone is into it the more careful they are about being sure they aren't crossing a line, safeword uttered or no.

There is something wrong when it doesn't even occur to Bob to take a second to say "are you ok?" In fact, I wonder if deep down somewhere he knew exactly what he was doing and decided to go right ahead.

phobia
Thanks Anoushh! I have to say ITA, plus this:
"In fact, I wonder if deep down somewhere he knew exactly what he was doing and decided to go right ahead. "

I wonder that, too. I think I was trying to avoid saying that, but I do wonder.
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 23 2007, 09:22 PM) *
Umm...prolly cause it wasn't directed at anyone in particular but more the general tone in this thread. Also, I didn't say "GirlyGirlGag, I think you are a pro-rape ignoramus who is no feminist." So get down off your high horse and please stop reading into my posts. Kthxbye.



You know what, if you are unable to participate in a discussion without behaving like a petualent child, maybe you shouldn't?

The "tone" of this thread is not anti-feminist, there is no "tone". It is a group of womening expressing opinions and experiences about a very TRICKY subject.
phobia
QUOTE(girlygirlgag @ Oct 23 2007, 05:30 PM) *
You know what, if you are unable to participate in a discussion without behaving like a petualent child, maybe you shouldn't?


Heh, you've got to be kidding me, right? Please. You didn't have to start with the ad hominem attacks in the first place, dearie. So don't turn around and claim that I'm suddenly acting childish when I was just responding to what you wrote -- stuff that was, in addition, completely made up. If you can't read what I'm actually saying instead of what you are imagining in your head, YOU'RE the one who shouldn't be participating. Good grief.
girlygirlgag
moved to the take it outside forum.
kittenb
I cannot tell you how much headspace this story has taken up in me for the past few days. And I feel like I should have a clearer answer than I do. See, I do work with rape survivors and dv survivors and I consider myself really good at what I do. I finally had to go back to the very first post to get some clarity on the situation. And this is the best that I can come up with.

I believe that Stacey was raped. I believe that it will be her choice as to what she calls it. However, judging from what was written here, I don't believe that Bob meant to rape his wife.

In the first post, TallGirl states that Bob had been taking a "Take what he wants" style for awhile, seemingly to Stacey's enjoyment (again, going by the post.) Now, I remembered reading that her taunting him was part of the game/foreplay, but on rereading it, I didn't see that as clearly. However, I still am not getting the impression that he meant to rape her. I know that sometimes people do cry during sex and I also know that sometimes people are not as attentive to their partners during sex as they should be. I think there was even a Grey's Anatomy episode where two of the characters were having sex and when the woman started to cry, the guy did nothing in response.

Like many people have pointed out, however, it is his comments after the incident that are scary. I want to know what he means here. Just because he didn't mean to rape her this time, what happens from here? Will he allow her to reclaim her "No"?

I think that they can come back from this if he owns up to the experience and respects her feelings of the event. That is, of course, assuming that this was and remains a one-time incident.

I still wish I had a better and clearer answer here. I have even consulted with collegues and friends about this. I think tomorrow I am going to my boss for her opinion.

Oh and to be really clear, I am a feminist, I am a rape survivor, and I am always on the victim's side. As such, I support the victim's choice, even when it is not a choice I would make. In a professional situation I would NEVER tell a DV survivor that she has to do anything, even leave her partner. I would support her ability to make decisions for herself and if she chooses to stay or go, I would help her find ways to make that choice safe for her.
ananke
I don't know if Phobia is having the samereaction I am, but seriously LMP - sometimes rape victims shut down. Can you please please please stop with the 'well, I think it's not rape because what woman wouldn't fight/scream/say no/blahblahblah'. It's really really really wrong, both ethically and in the general sense that yes, women do shut down, particularly in partner rape situations.
LoveMyPugs
deleted
anoushh
Word, ananke. Wish I'd been that clear in what I said earlier.

What if we could agree he didn't mean to rape her--leave that word out of it. I'm not convinced even then he didn't mean to get back at her, hurt her, take power over her, using sex. That sounds a lot like rape, even if it isn't called that.

And I don't care how pissed off, "provoked," etc you are--if you react by forcing sex on someone, even if you can convince yourself that they "want" it--which is what most abusers do--is wrong. And it is very different from having a shouting match, not talking to the partner, even slapping them.

The reason rapists rape is because they know there is something different--especially traumatic, violating--about rape. That includes partner rape too.

QUOTE(ananke @ Oct 23 2007, 10:58 PM) *
I don't know if Phobia is having the samereaction I am, but seriously LMP - sometimes rape victims shut down. Can you please please please stop with the 'well, I think it's not rape because what woman wouldn't fight/scream/say no/blahblahblah'. It's really really really wrong, both ethically and in the general sense that yes, women do shut down, particularly in partner rape situations.
LoveMyPugs
okay
  • stacy wanted bob to take control and she wanted rough sex.
  • so she bratted out to get a reaction out of him.
  • bob got pissed due to her taunting
  • in anger he forced her down on the bed and fucked her while she cried and pleaded no to teach her a lesson
  • when it's over stacy explains that was not what she wanted
  • bob probably knew this but was too pissed at the time to care
  • now he feels scared and guilty and says something stupid
  • because of his stupid comment now she feels really bad
  • in an effort to cover his ass bob points out that she didn't use her safeword
  • the safeword was fucking stupid
  • anyone who dabbles in bdsm should know better then to use stop as a safeword
  • so instead of apolgozing he makes it worse and tells her that's what happens when she challenges him
  • stacy feels even worse and now is apologizing for something she shouldn't be apologizing for
  • bob still hasn't owned up to his part of the fuckup
  • stacy hasn't really fucked up at all because all the taunting in the world doesn't give her husband the right to fuck her in anger while she cries and fights him off
  • now the relationship is all fucked up and something needs to be done
summing it up that way i guess it was rape. although i don't think bob meant to rape her even though he did rape her. i guess it's all up to stacy now on what to do next. therapy is a must whether it's alone or together. i hope she is okay in the end and can move on from this terrible experience with or without bob. i really hope there aren't kids in the middle of this mess. good luck stacy!
girltrouble
GGG, phobia if you have anything else to say to each other, (including apologies) go to the take it outside thread. your name calling-- both of you-- is a distraction. lets stick to the topic, please.

GGG, no one said bob is into rape (far as i know), we are talking about this single incedent.

i have to agree with ananke, and phobia, pugs, not to gang up on you, you know i adore you, it just seems that just as you say that phobia can't see this thru any filter but her own, it seems you can't see this save your own filter. i've never been raped either, but i can't say for certain what i'd do, and freezing is absolutely in the realm of possiblities-- for anyone.

i must call it rape, not because of some personal interest, i have none, but rather my definition of rape:

no consent, or continuing when consent is withdrawn is RAPE. PERIOD.

it doesn't matter if it is rough sex or SM, an husband or a stranger. who started what, called who names, is irrevant, saying "stop" or "no" doesn't make it rape-- the withdraw of consent however it is-- or isn't expressed-- does.

in this case it was her crying. no words, not speech, just something she'd never done before, and something that most people would recognise as a sign.

now, what stacy calls it is up to her, but my definition, i can call in nothing else. it's not murky, it's not muddy, it's not ambigous to me, my definiton is my ethical guide to my life and SM play, and there is no wiggle room. i prefer it that way. but i am the first to say i don't know everything that happens in a relationship, we are only getting a slice, i have learned first hand that there are only two people who knows what goes on inside a relationship-- any relationship. so i can understand the urge to say that we don't know enough, we don't know them, it's ambigous, its murky, but it's not.

go back to your definiton of rape. does it fit? does it not?

this thread is about naming what occured in this singular event, with what we've been told.

and as i've said, to me it is rape. pure and simple.
venetia
Yes, I agree with GT that this seems to be the crux of the matter. My problem is that I feel like I need more words than just "rape", like the fact that we have to fight so hard to have rape recognised as rape and rape recognised as wrong has somehow shrunk it so it fits through the eye of a needle.

I agree with Butta that continuing when consent has been withdrawn is rape, but also for me a communication isn't complete if a message was sent but not received. It has a different effect. So whether or not that withdrawal of consent was understood or not is relevant - irrelevant to the fact that Stacey experienced it as rape, (if she did experience it as rape) but relevant to how I would see Bob's participation. As I'm not him, I have no way of knowing if it was intentional rape or accidental rape. For want of better terms.
greenbean
Ok, since I deleted my other post many of you probably hadnt read it, but the gist was that I have been in a similiar situation that I still am not clear was rape. I deleted my story not because I was afraid it would be dismissed as not rape, but more because I was afraid some of you would berate me that it WAS. I wasn't sure why I was afraid of this until I read this from anoush:
QUOTE
There's also a temptation to blame yourself for terrible things because in some unconcious way part of you then can say to yourself that you can prevent a terrible thing from happening in the future. Ie, if it was because of something you did you can not do it the next time and you'll be safe.
Bingo. Thats exactly it. I still have trouble thinking my situation was rape because it didnt seem like he meant it, I did want to have sex with him at first, and I didn't fight him off like I would assume my natural insticts would do during rape...but most of all I dont want to change my lifestyle for fear of it happening again, so I guess I convinced myself that I was indeed in control of the situation. Ugg. Even during this epiphany I still don't feel like I've been raped, more like it was just an unfortunate accident.

Which brings me to this, for both myself and Stacy: Can rape be accidental? If a guy didnt mean it, where do they go from there? And if a rape victim feels he didnt mean it, will she be able to go on with her life without ever telling herself she was raped,.. or must she "call a spade a spade" before she can be healed? (I agree with Ven, I wish there was more vocab..are there degrees of rape such as degrees of murder?)

faerietails2
*delurks*

there's been a lot of debate at feministing over the past couple of months (this is one such thread) regarding "gray rape," and they've been struggling with a lot of the questions you bring up, greenbean. i did get a chance to read your story before you deleted it, and it put a lot of things into a really different perspective for me. those are great questions you bring up that i'd never even considered until recently.

*relurks*
greenbean
Thanks Faerie. I read some of Feministing and Jezebel and ARG! Its making my head spin. Its really a shame that this is dividing women. I understand that feminists would like all rape to be reported and rapists be punished. Many women dear to my heart have experienced undeniable and unexcusable rape, and didnt report it, which breaks my heart. But when I think about my situation, and how it would go if I had reported it, I feel like it would have gone horrible. First off, it didnt hurt (he was really small) and I wasnt scared, more like confused,..which doesnt make for damning testimony. Second, I'd have to admit that the sex was consensual at first, so then I look like a dumb slut who is attracted to a rapist. Third, I'd be trying to put my friend in jail. Kinda awkward.

But now I'm being told (indirectly, by reading those posts) "YOU WERE RAPED!! Not calling it that dimisses the term!!" ...but then on the other hand I feel like I'm diminishing the term by claiming it, like as if I told my friend--who was raped by an older boy when she was a 13 yr old virgin,-- "oh yeah, I've been raped too." I dunno, it just seems like I'd be seeking sympathy or drama or something, when other women have REALLY suffered.

Head spinning. Must go to sleep now.
girltrouble
bean, thank you so much for putting yourself out there. it takes a lot of courage to post ones experience on topics (i often regret some of my own honesty on topics), particularly one this sensitve. i've always thought you were pretty awesome, and this more than confirms it.

as i said, how stacy, or you define your experience is up to you. honestly, that is for you to decide, but here is how i feel about your three points. please do not take it personally, it is certainly not my intent to hurt, insult or in anyway harm you. but merely to state my point of view:

1)size has nothing to do with it; your friend was raped, would it matter if her rapist was small? honestly, huh?
2)just because you consented at first does not make you look like a slut, it just means you were mistaken. you could make the same case for an abusive marrage. at first they consented to "love, honor and obey" but at the point where it becomes abusive the conditions change. often the non-abusive part was an act, but is the woman at fault because he seemed like a prince before hand? no. no, no, no! the CONDITIONS CHANGED. it BECAME abusive. in my own case, my domme who abused me was fantastic, it was like she read my mind, but conditons changed, my consent was withdrawn, BECAUSE it was abusive. saying i was attracted to an abuser is blaming myself for HER defect. by the same token, saying you were "attracted to a rapist." is self blame.
3)do you think putting a friend it jail is anyless awkward than say, oh a relative? or a friend of the family? as someone pointed out, rape is seldom the jumping-out-of-the-bushes sort. it's usually someone you know. now, how you handle it, is entirely up to you. i wouldn't dare tell you how to react to it, what i think you should do as far as reporting an the law, but let me ask you this question:
what if this is how he treats every woman? would that change how you feel about him? would you feel comfortable knowing that the woman he dates after you was treated like you were? let that be your guide. i think the one kindness we can do is look out for each other on this kind of level. if you can feel comfortable with these things, then i think you've made the right call. let your heart guide you. i don't know the circomstances of what you went thru, and if i did, the choice would still not be mine. what is right or wrong for you is your call. i still think you kick ass either way. thanks again for sharing.

and finally,
ven! you called me butta <3<4<5
i lurve you!!! (you soooooo make me want to start posting under that moniker again)
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Oct 24 2007, 12:12 PM) *
3)do you think putting a friend it jail is anyless awkward than say, oh a relative? or a friend of the family? as someone pointed out, rape is seldom the jumping-out-of-the-bushes sort. it's usually someone you know. now, how you handle it, is entirely up to you.


I think she meant more of an "awkward" feeling from not really being angry at him, just confused at about what happened.

I have a situation like that GB. If you want to chat, PM me.
roseviolet
Greenbean, I didn't get to see your original post before you removed it, but I understand where you are coming from. I think it is 100% appropriate for you to label that experience in whatever way feels appropriate for you. If rape doesn't feel like the right word, then maybe it isn't. You were the one who was there & it happened to you, so only you can label your experience.

As I said back in the beginning of this thread, I once had a negative sexual experience with an old partner. At the moment that it was happening, I did not want to have sex but I froze up & couldn't tell him to stop. So to me, it felt like rape. However, I talked to my boyfriend about it and knew that it was all a matter of miscommunication and misunderstanding. He had no malicious intent. He obviously thought he was doing what I wanted him to do. Therefore, I don't consider him a rapist. And indeed, I don't feel comfortable calling it rape because I know he never intended to hurt me. However, I did not deny the fact that it felt like rape, whatever his intent, and that feeling left emotional scars.
I don't feel that he raped me.
I don't feel that he is a rapist.
But during the event, I felt frightened and confused and I felt that I had been raped.
I don't blame myself. I don't blame him. It was an extemely upsetting experience, but that doesn't mean anyone is to blame. As the saying goes, "Shit happens." I think my experience is a very good example of shit happening.

I am comfortable with how I labeled the situation. It's my life, my experiences, and only I can know how to categorize it. Others may say that somehow I'm in denial. They may say that I'm wrapped up in semantics and that I ought to "call a spade a spade". I just ignore them. Because I was there. And it wasn't "a spade". It was more complex than that.

Misunderstandings and miscommunication happen outside of the bedroom for couples all of the time. I think they can happen inside the bedroom, too. It's tragic, but it happens. That's what happened to me. That may be what happened to Stacey. But I leave it up to Stacey to name her experience.
greenbean
Thanks girltrouble, GGG, and RV. To clear up any confusion without getting into details, my situation was I let this dude enter me, but halfway through the act I realized we werent using protection so I implied that he needed to pause to put on a condom, but he finished swiftly before I knew he was going to. At the time I just chalked it up to drunken, irresponsible sex, but now I'm facing the fact that it was worse than that.

GT, I understand and agree with what you're saying. To respond to your points:
1. When I mentioned dude was small, its not to say small dicks cant rape, I just meant that the fact that I wasn't in pain added to my lack of distress. I was more like "Huh? Is he really ignoring me?"

2. You're right, I do blame myself for being attracted to him, because I feel like I should have know he was an ass. We were friends for years before this happened and now that I look back, there were hints to this side of him. Plus *I'm* the one who instigated sex, I was fully tarting it up and undressing for him, which is so humiliating to remember now. I know it wasnt my fault just like it wasn't Stacy fault, but it does make things more complex.

3. GGG is right in her wording of awkward. Its like say, what if I got inthe car with a friend who is drunk, and she slams into a tree and I get injured. If she goes up for jail time for it, I think it'd be hard testify against her. I'd probably think, "yeah, sucks that I got hurt, but, well, I got in the car with her knowing she was drunk, and I don't really want her in jail..etc" Same kinda shitty situation.

As far as "what if he goes on to treat other women like this"...uh, yeah, thats a toughie. Every woman I know that has been raped didnt report it either, so I know the repitition of rape doesnt entirely rest on my shoulders alone..but I do feel guilty for neglecting the responsibilty of pressing charges. I guess I rationalize it with my stance that fear of punishment is not the reason we want men not to rape. I think we want men not to rape because it harms bodies and souls. For what its worth, the dude in my incident did apologize to me when I saw him a few days later, for, in his words "taking advantage". He also confided in a mutual friend that he was deeply ashamed of himself. Its not an excuse, but adds to the complexity if the situation. Like, if he's already sorry and I can't convince myself I was raped, how could I convince a judge?

I hope no one thinks I'm discouraging locking up rapists,..I'm just saying I understand how hard it is. I also hope we dont see so many angry arguements amongt feminists on whether all rape is clear cut or if there is a "gray" zone . I mean, discussion is important, but it breaks my heart when the rape issue turns into "blaming each other for blaming ourselves" cycle.
ananke
What we call it for ourselves doesn't necessarily mean that someone in the same situation would do it. For those of you in the Survivor thread, you probably know this, but when I was raped it was by someone I trusted to be my Dom, who was 'helping me' (in the Secretary-movie sort of way) to deal with my (truly) psychotic depressiona and SI. Who I has shared my predilicition for rough sex and BDSM with.

He turned it around on me, pinned me to the bed while I cried and used my menstrual blood to sodomise me.

He apologised afterwards, and I apologised because, OMG HE HAS TO LIVE AS A RAPIST OH NOES WHAT A HORRIBLE THING I DID TO LET HIM DO THAT. I worried about him driving home drunk. I blamed myself for years, because he knew all this stuff about me and that's why it happened. Except that's not it. He took advantage of a seriously fucked up kid (I was 19) who was drunk, and sick, and did what HE wanted to do. So the Stacey story is a little more personal for me. Because I refused to believe he did it, could hurt me like that. I refused to believe it. Until I woke up crying because I could smell him and it felt like that tiny little room again. But even then I chalked it up to bad sex. I wasn't clear. I was a bad sub. I was 'bratting out'. He couldn't read me clearly.

Which is bullshit. I said no. I cried. I pushed him away. I bled all over my bed. I pleaded for something else, anything else to happen. I couldn't believe it, in the realest sense. I just stopped, once I realised I had no control over it, nothing I said or did was going to matter. I shut down.

It took a year to remember. It took two to realise I didn't do anything wrong. It took three to name it rape. Six years later I still panic in the summer when certain trees flower. I still can't do certain things. I still feel awful after some things. I don't want this to happen to anyone else.
jami
ananke... your last paragraph made my heart pound. that's how i feel. when you talked of the trees in summer. it's getting winter and the thought of snow making me feel trapped... remembering things. it's awful.
I'm getting back to the 'everything's fine' pretend mode. smiling, laughing. but it's not true.
opheliathemuse
Thank you ananke. You made me cry just now.
Venetia, logically you are correct about the lines being blurred. But when someone takes your consent from you, it's the scariest thing in the world.
I appreciate that the fine line is being discussed right now, and because I am dealing with my experiences for the first time openly it's very helpful. They are just such...confusing ones. They may not have been as physically violent as Ananke's but every one of them involved my consent being taken from me rather than my granting it. Mentally it was very traumatizing because I am known for being a strong woman and intellectually fierce. And because of this, I feel like I'm judged by people I tell. I don't want sympathy because I got raped, just as GB puts it: I want to label what's happened to me and move on, because it's caused me depression, PTSD, extreme self-esteem issues, and sexual issues.
ananke
I'm sorry my story was so hard for people to read. I sometimes forget how harsh it really was, because I tend to think of it as not particularly violent or terrible, in the scheme of things.

Of course forgetting how harmful minimising it can be, and that the betrayal of it causes its own set of problems.

But yes, what you said about what GB said - once you've got a name, you've got power over it.
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